I am being investigated by HR, should I let them or quit?
February 19, 2013 7:30 PM Subscribe
YANM HR person/Hiring professional, but I am in terrible need of help.
A picture was submitted of me nodding off and now HR is investigating me for misconduct. I have had no previous incidents before, but believe this is only going to get worse. Should I stay and go through the investigation process or leave? And if I do quit/resign how should I go about doing it?
I was the asker of this question. Consider this the sequel, or the final act.
I work in a computer related desk job for a mid-size manufacturer and had my picture taken at my desk when I was falling asleep and submitted to HR. I learned this in a meeting with an HR manager and they told me that because of this incident was submitted to them, I was going to be investigated. When asked if I was going to be let go, they refused to say but did not deny the possibility. I told them verbally that I was asleep briefly because of studying for classes (this was true & I had other more personal issues, but I did not want to share them). Also I told them that I had once been told not to sleep, but it was "a very long time ago" (2 years ago). They wanted me to produce a written statement of what I said, but I told them I was too anxious to do so right now. And I think they knew I was anxious and extremely worried since I had that expression and wasn't sure what to say most of the time during the meeting. So, I have only said the above things quoted and have not done anything else.
The investigation process seems to require a review by HR personnel, my boss, and higher up bosses in my department. Looking through the employee handbook, it looks like the basic process is going to involve them reviewing and interviewing me and then some sort of judgment that involves a tiered demerit and may include being fired. Anything that happens during this process is documented and placed in my "confidential personnel file" complete with the usual rigmarole of dates and signatures. Since nothing has been signed or written, I don't think this process has begun yet, but I'm not sure.
My own boss probably approves of this investigation (he may have turned in the photo too), so I won't have anyone to defend me. In addition, he's been under pressure from his bosses a lot and will probably not defend me in any capacity. This is the primary reason why I think I'm going to be let go. They have been implying about "cuts" among the team for the last 3 months, and have gradually ratcheted up pressure with stricter rules, more employee tracking, and more admonishments (to me and the group). I've tried my best to stay out of trouble, but that's clearly not worked.
A few final things. Keep in mind that I have never been written up at all for my entire five years at my company. Also, I'm not in any significant financial stress right now, so collecting unemployment is not a number one priority. I work in California if that makes a difference.
My questions are(especially to anyone in the HR or hiring field):
I was the asker of this question. Consider this the sequel, or the final act.
I work in a computer related desk job for a mid-size manufacturer and had my picture taken at my desk when I was falling asleep and submitted to HR. I learned this in a meeting with an HR manager and they told me that because of this incident was submitted to them, I was going to be investigated. When asked if I was going to be let go, they refused to say but did not deny the possibility. I told them verbally that I was asleep briefly because of studying for classes (this was true & I had other more personal issues, but I did not want to share them). Also I told them that I had once been told not to sleep, but it was "a very long time ago" (2 years ago). They wanted me to produce a written statement of what I said, but I told them I was too anxious to do so right now. And I think they knew I was anxious and extremely worried since I had that expression and wasn't sure what to say most of the time during the meeting. So, I have only said the above things quoted and have not done anything else.
The investigation process seems to require a review by HR personnel, my boss, and higher up bosses in my department. Looking through the employee handbook, it looks like the basic process is going to involve them reviewing and interviewing me and then some sort of judgment that involves a tiered demerit and may include being fired. Anything that happens during this process is documented and placed in my "confidential personnel file" complete with the usual rigmarole of dates and signatures. Since nothing has been signed or written, I don't think this process has begun yet, but I'm not sure.
My own boss probably approves of this investigation (he may have turned in the photo too), so I won't have anyone to defend me. In addition, he's been under pressure from his bosses a lot and will probably not defend me in any capacity. This is the primary reason why I think I'm going to be let go. They have been implying about "cuts" among the team for the last 3 months, and have gradually ratcheted up pressure with stricter rules, more employee tracking, and more admonishments (to me and the group). I've tried my best to stay out of trouble, but that's clearly not worked.
A few final things. Keep in mind that I have never been written up at all for my entire five years at my company. Also, I'm not in any significant financial stress right now, so collecting unemployment is not a number one priority. I work in California if that makes a difference.
My questions are(especially to anyone in the HR or hiring field):
- Why does the investigation process require a statement and has it begun?
- Would it be better on my resume to quit or to go through their process?
- If I quit before the investigation, will this incident in any way be reported to potential future employers? Will quitting look worse than the alternative to them?
- If I do go through the process and get a black mark and leave my job after the process (willingly or not), would this be an impediment to finding employment elsewhere?
- Are there any other implications to either quitting or going through the process that I should be aware of?
- What work emails and correspondence should I grab to defend myself?
- When I do submit my resignation, should I mention my own feelings as to why I quit or keep it as professional, cordial, and vague as possible?
This post was deleted for the following reason: poster's request -- cortex
I'm a boss.
1) I would probably write someone up in a first instance for this, but also seek to see how we could work as a team to improve.
What I would hope to hear from you if I were your boss is "I am very embarrassed, and i apologise. i am also disheartened that whoever took this did not approach me directly first. I am willing to improve and romise this won't happen again."
2. References must be honest. So even if you are leaving I would do the interview and put your best foot forward.
3 i would talk to you lawyer of possible
Definitely to your union if you have one!
4 if anxious, rehearse for the meeting so you can come across calm and responsible
Good luck!
posted by chapps at 7:43 PM on February 19, 2013 [12 favorites]
1) I would probably write someone up in a first instance for this, but also seek to see how we could work as a team to improve.
What I would hope to hear from you if I were your boss is "I am very embarrassed, and i apologise. i am also disheartened that whoever took this did not approach me directly first. I am willing to improve and romise this won't happen again."
2. References must be honest. So even if you are leaving I would do the interview and put your best foot forward.
3 i would talk to you lawyer of possible
Definitely to your union if you have one!
4 if anxious, rehearse for the meeting so you can come across calm and responsible
Good luck!
posted by chapps at 7:43 PM on February 19, 2013 [12 favorites]
You sound awfully defeated. I'm also worried about the part where you told them that someone had told you "not to sleep" on the job. Do you actually fall asleep a lot on the job? While I think it is well and healthy to get a snooze break during the day, it's not appropriate at your desk and most company cultures sadly will not allow it.
But, if this was an isolated incident, you should be more defensive. Way more defensive. Who the hell is going around snapping pics and reporting? That seems so weird. What else is going on here?
I kind of think you are screwed either way but I don't think you should quit. If you are fired, you may be eligible for unemployment. If this is your first black mark, I think you can make a case that you were pushed out. Make them do it.
And, you know, look for that other job in a place with a better culture and a better fit. Don't let them intimidate you. "Investigation" is a pretty fancy term for them looking into the facts of the matter. If all your coworkers say that you sleep all day, well, you might not have any luck with references but you can surely move on from this.
posted by amanda at 7:45 PM on February 19, 2013 [4 favorites]
But, if this was an isolated incident, you should be more defensive. Way more defensive. Who the hell is going around snapping pics and reporting? That seems so weird. What else is going on here?
I kind of think you are screwed either way but I don't think you should quit. If you are fired, you may be eligible for unemployment. If this is your first black mark, I think you can make a case that you were pushed out. Make them do it.
And, you know, look for that other job in a place with a better culture and a better fit. Don't let them intimidate you. "Investigation" is a pretty fancy term for them looking into the facts of the matter. If all your coworkers say that you sleep all day, well, you might not have any luck with references but you can surely move on from this.
posted by amanda at 7:45 PM on February 19, 2013 [4 favorites]
Best answer: 1) The process has already begun. The statement is just to show due diligence in considering your side of the issue so they aren't, e.g., walking into a lawsuit because they're firing you for medical narcolepsy or something. Since you admitted to it, a written statement admitting to the infraction could also bolster a case to deny unemployment.
2) If they're talking about making cuts, and you think this will result in being fired, your best option is to go back to HR and say "Listen, I think in light of this situation that we separate amicably and go separate ways," assuming you can afford the job loss.
If you can't afford it, get fired and get paid as long as possible. Be open in your interviews. A lot of the most successful people I know have been fired. Explain up front that you nodded off once at your desk during a high stress period, that you were fired, and that you've eliminated the major stressors in your life that contributed to that situation.
3) If your personal issues are medical, share them. That is the documentation you need to not get fired. Otherwise, you're really at their mercy considering you were caught on camera and you admitted to it.
4) If you submit your resignation, it is "I resign my position as of date. Sincerely, FTJ". Not a word more. And don't tell them your real thoughts. That's bridge burning, and you may have to work for them again. Smile, be cordial, and leave happy because, yknow, screw them.
posted by bfranklin at 7:45 PM on February 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
2) If they're talking about making cuts, and you think this will result in being fired, your best option is to go back to HR and say "Listen, I think in light of this situation that we separate amicably and go separate ways," assuming you can afford the job loss.
If you can't afford it, get fired and get paid as long as possible. Be open in your interviews. A lot of the most successful people I know have been fired. Explain up front that you nodded off once at your desk during a high stress period, that you were fired, and that you've eliminated the major stressors in your life that contributed to that situation.
3) If your personal issues are medical, share them. That is the documentation you need to not get fired. Otherwise, you're really at their mercy considering you were caught on camera and you admitted to it.
4) If you submit your resignation, it is "I resign my position as of date. Sincerely, FTJ". Not a word more. And don't tell them your real thoughts. That's bridge burning, and you may have to work for them again. Smile, be cordial, and leave happy because, yknow, screw them.
posted by bfranklin at 7:45 PM on February 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
I can't answer most of your questions. I can tell you that I've known people investigated by HR for far worse offenses to keep their jobs.
However it does sound like you've been unhappy with this job and it's a good time to start looking.
posted by bunderful at 7:46 PM on February 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
However it does sound like you've been unhappy with this job and it's a good time to start looking.
posted by bunderful at 7:46 PM on February 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I can't answer (1), (2), or (3), but with respect to (4), as bfranklin also advised, just write a one sentence resignation. This was advice that someone gave me when I quit one of my first jobs. I had written this long three-page letter about how I was mistreated and misunderstood and blahblahblah. My colleague read the letter and told me "I'm glad you wrote all this down. It's very cathartic to be able to express all this. Now burn this letter and write a single sentence: I appreciated the opportunities to work here, and I am leaving to pursue other opportunities."
This was some of the best advice I've ever received (and, I'm glad to report, followed). First, because why dredge up all these emotions in a letter to an entity that has no feelings, or ability to empathize, or interest in change? It would not have had any desired effect on anyone, including myself. And second because now, looking back, I remember how mad/upset/irritated I was, and also how kind of self-centered and immature a lot of my behavior was, and I'm just glad there is nothing that exists as a record of that.
posted by gubenuj at 8:01 PM on February 19, 2013 [11 favorites]
This was some of the best advice I've ever received (and, I'm glad to report, followed). First, because why dredge up all these emotions in a letter to an entity that has no feelings, or ability to empathize, or interest in change? It would not have had any desired effect on anyone, including myself. And second because now, looking back, I remember how mad/upset/irritated I was, and also how kind of self-centered and immature a lot of my behavior was, and I'm just glad there is nothing that exists as a record of that.
posted by gubenuj at 8:01 PM on February 19, 2013 [11 favorites]
Get fired.
That is all I have to say on the subject, and it doesn't matter whether it's for unemployment purposes or whatever. Make them fire you. First, there's a good chance that they simply won't do it, because firing people sucks. Second, even if they go through with it, it will make zero difference to any of your future potential employers, because you're going to tell them. Use bfranklin's ideas for explaining it. Odds are that anyone interviewing you will say, "Wait, you nodded off once and they fired you? Ouch." Because honestly, who hasn't fallen asleep at their job? It wasn't during surgery, no one stole the nuclear launch codes from you, and you're not a truck driver. Third, if you quit, you are setting a zero-tolerance precedent of fear and seppuku at your workplace, and that will only screw over the people you leave behind.
Don't let them convince you that you "owe" them resigning. You don't owe them the right to browbeat you into doing their dirty work. Firing people is what they get paid to do. Make them do their job.
posted by Etrigan at 8:30 PM on February 19, 2013 [16 favorites]
That is all I have to say on the subject, and it doesn't matter whether it's for unemployment purposes or whatever. Make them fire you. First, there's a good chance that they simply won't do it, because firing people sucks. Second, even if they go through with it, it will make zero difference to any of your future potential employers, because you're going to tell them. Use bfranklin's ideas for explaining it. Odds are that anyone interviewing you will say, "Wait, you nodded off once and they fired you? Ouch." Because honestly, who hasn't fallen asleep at their job? It wasn't during surgery, no one stole the nuclear launch codes from you, and you're not a truck driver. Third, if you quit, you are setting a zero-tolerance precedent of fear and seppuku at your workplace, and that will only screw over the people you leave behind.
Don't let them convince you that you "owe" them resigning. You don't owe them the right to browbeat you into doing their dirty work. Firing people is what they get paid to do. Make them do their job.
posted by Etrigan at 8:30 PM on February 19, 2013 [16 favorites]
HR is also possibly involved because there are physiological reasons (e.g. narcolepsy) that might lead someone to fall asleep at work, and if you're in the US, the ADA might protect you from being fired for this if it were a documentable disability.
posted by yellowcandy at 9:13 PM on February 19, 2013
posted by yellowcandy at 9:13 PM on February 19, 2013
Just chiming back in to say I agree its a weird workplace where someone is snapping photos rather than talking to you directly. If this turns out to be your direct supervisor, I second the goal should be to find work elsewhere. (If I were the boss I would *not* be impressed with a supervisor who doesn't first talk directly to someone they supervise).
I still think the idea of leaving (if you do) on best possible terms is good. This can include being fired... or to use management terms, and what I think you should aim for: "Constructive dismissal"... This means its simply just best for both parties, while "being fired" assigns blame to one party--you.
(I'm not a lawyer, and I am in BC Canada, but a single infraction where I am a supervisor is not usually grounds for firing unless it is theft, fraud, willfully disobeying clear instructions, or real mistreatment/endangerment of co-workers or customers).
Finally, if you have health problems leading to sleeping issues, and can document this, this is definitely in your advantage to raise, at least where I am. That would indicate that the situation isn't negligence on your part. It could also help in future job interviews, with the caveat that a new employer will want to know it is handled.
So, maybe a first step is to talk to you doctor, and see if they think there is an issue. If they do ask for a letter and bring it to the meeting. I would still bring it up in the sense of "this is something I am working on", though.
posted by chapps at 9:18 PM on February 19, 2013
I still think the idea of leaving (if you do) on best possible terms is good. This can include being fired... or to use management terms, and what I think you should aim for: "Constructive dismissal"... This means its simply just best for both parties, while "being fired" assigns blame to one party--you.
(I'm not a lawyer, and I am in BC Canada, but a single infraction where I am a supervisor is not usually grounds for firing unless it is theft, fraud, willfully disobeying clear instructions, or real mistreatment/endangerment of co-workers or customers).
Finally, if you have health problems leading to sleeping issues, and can document this, this is definitely in your advantage to raise, at least where I am. That would indicate that the situation isn't negligence on your part. It could also help in future job interviews, with the caveat that a new employer will want to know it is handled.
So, maybe a first step is to talk to you doctor, and see if they think there is an issue. If they do ask for a letter and bring it to the meeting. I would still bring it up in the sense of "this is something I am working on", though.
posted by chapps at 9:18 PM on February 19, 2013
How is your performance in general? Do you have a history of sleeping on the job? Forgive me, but I'm not understanding why someone needs to be told explicitly not to sleep at work. Am I misunderstanding the prior situation?
I would say in your statement "I wasn't feeling very well that day and was struggling to remain alert. I'm terribly embarrassed by this whole incident. I am committed to this job with company X and am very sorry if it appeared otherwise." Yes, I am aware that "not feeling well" could be interpreted as Red Flag for Medical Accommodation Request Incoming! It is also a completely and utterly normal, accurate, and legitimate way to describe physical and/or emotional fatigue. It's not the same as saying "I was sick," and I'm not advocating that you should try to be manipulative. If they are paranoid and choose to take "not well" that way, well then, they are doing their appointed job of protecting the company as they see fit.
Don't let them shame you into quitting to allegedly save your reputation. While starting The Official HR Proceedings With Documentation is not a good sign, it doesn't mean that you'll actually get fired. It's kind of a pain in the ass for them to get all the way through it to the actual firing, actually. Heck, for all you know, HR thinks your boss is a dick and first-round warnings happen all the time with him but are rarely justified by firings. I wouldn't bank on that, mind you, but it's not too much less plausible then the other extreme scenario, which is that they're framing you to get axed tout de suite.
If it's really important to you to quit instead of being fired, wait until the actual firing is truly imminent, and THEN quit (with a simple letter prepped in advance.) Imminent as in, you're gone through all the stated rounds of Official HR Proceedings With Documentation and they're calling you into an unexpected meeting. I bet they'll take your resignation happily, especially if you agree to waive unemployment claims.
posted by desuetude at 9:36 PM on February 19, 2013 [4 favorites]
I would say in your statement "I wasn't feeling very well that day and was struggling to remain alert. I'm terribly embarrassed by this whole incident. I am committed to this job with company X and am very sorry if it appeared otherwise." Yes, I am aware that "not feeling well" could be interpreted as Red Flag for Medical Accommodation Request Incoming! It is also a completely and utterly normal, accurate, and legitimate way to describe physical and/or emotional fatigue. It's not the same as saying "I was sick," and I'm not advocating that you should try to be manipulative. If they are paranoid and choose to take "not well" that way, well then, they are doing their appointed job of protecting the company as they see fit.
Don't let them shame you into quitting to allegedly save your reputation. While starting The Official HR Proceedings With Documentation is not a good sign, it doesn't mean that you'll actually get fired. It's kind of a pain in the ass for them to get all the way through it to the actual firing, actually. Heck, for all you know, HR thinks your boss is a dick and first-round warnings happen all the time with him but are rarely justified by firings. I wouldn't bank on that, mind you, but it's not too much less plausible then the other extreme scenario, which is that they're framing you to get axed tout de suite.
If it's really important to you to quit instead of being fired, wait until the actual firing is truly imminent, and THEN quit (with a simple letter prepped in advance.) Imminent as in, you're gone through all the stated rounds of Official HR Proceedings With Documentation and they're calling you into an unexpected meeting. I bet they'll take your resignation happily, especially if you agree to waive unemployment claims.
posted by desuetude at 9:36 PM on February 19, 2013 [4 favorites]
Is it possible that you could be laid off instead of being fired or quitting? You would then be eligible for unemployment.
I was a supervisor and it was not easy to fire someone where I worked. We had to document a verbal warning and then document a written warning. So basically the third warning was when the person was fired. It was a lot of work from my side of the desk and usually by the written warning the person was looking for any excuse to leave the job.
You sound really burned out to me. No matter how it turns out I think you should start looking for another one job or career. Customer service type jobs seem to be really draining after a while. Good luck.
posted by cairnoflore at 9:50 PM on February 19, 2013
I was a supervisor and it was not easy to fire someone where I worked. We had to document a verbal warning and then document a written warning. So basically the third warning was when the person was fired. It was a lot of work from my side of the desk and usually by the written warning the person was looking for any excuse to leave the job.
You sound really burned out to me. No matter how it turns out I think you should start looking for another one job or career. Customer service type jobs seem to be really draining after a while. Good luck.
posted by cairnoflore at 9:50 PM on February 19, 2013
Best answer: I'm a boss (albeit in a very small company) and I'm dismayed by the whole "crime scene" description of this event. For goodness sake, you are a human being, and you were tired. A decent person who knows you've never done this before in five years would simply casually mention to you that you must have been tired, maybe ask the reason, and then say something like I'll cover for you this time but please try to avoid it in the future so you don't both get in trouble. It feels like the people you work with are a bunch of corporate drones who have no humanity and no people skills. They are just all afraid of losing their jobs. Leave or get fired, but leave - that sounds like a terrible place to work.
posted by Dansaman at 10:18 PM on February 19, 2013 [28 favorites]
posted by Dansaman at 10:18 PM on February 19, 2013 [28 favorites]
I think that regardless of whether you actually will be fired 100% for sure and whatnot, you should be acting like you have already been fired. This is assuming of course that you're even going to sit this process out.
I don't mean show up in your underwear with a supersoaker when I say act like you've been fired, but I feel like this is a stressful situation and you need some closure. If you act like the hammer has dropped and you need a new job, it'll let you shift gears and start moving on more quickly.
However, I also have mixed feelings about "letting them fire you". I feel like that's drawing some line in the sand and taking a stand against a shitty situation that proves absolutely nothing, and keeps you in said crappy situation. For what? You're not changing anything in that crappy office culture by letting them fire you.(seriously, what the hell with the picture thing? Who does that kind of crap and doesn't talk to the person? What kind of bell ends were involved in the process of starting this investigation before just, you know, talking to you?)
It might actually be more emotionally healthy and cathartic to just remove yourself from the situation. If I was in this position I'd just quit, especially after reading your previous post. And even moreso if you can coast on savings. I'd be trying to set up interviews *right now* and reaching out among people I know.
There's just something inherently immature about putting yourself in a crappy situation just to prove some point when the point a stand is being made over is incredibly minor, and no one outside of the situation will care. It's one thig when you can't leave, but when you can it just comes off as a really gross kind of contrarianism for its own sake.
posted by emptythought at 10:23 PM on February 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
I don't mean show up in your underwear with a supersoaker when I say act like you've been fired, but I feel like this is a stressful situation and you need some closure. If you act like the hammer has dropped and you need a new job, it'll let you shift gears and start moving on more quickly.
However, I also have mixed feelings about "letting them fire you". I feel like that's drawing some line in the sand and taking a stand against a shitty situation that proves absolutely nothing, and keeps you in said crappy situation. For what? You're not changing anything in that crappy office culture by letting them fire you.(seriously, what the hell with the picture thing? Who does that kind of crap and doesn't talk to the person? What kind of bell ends were involved in the process of starting this investigation before just, you know, talking to you?)
It might actually be more emotionally healthy and cathartic to just remove yourself from the situation. If I was in this position I'd just quit, especially after reading your previous post. And even moreso if you can coast on savings. I'd be trying to set up interviews *right now* and reaching out among people I know.
There's just something inherently immature about putting yourself in a crappy situation just to prove some point when the point a stand is being made over is incredibly minor, and no one outside of the situation will care. It's one thig when you can't leave, but when you can it just comes off as a really gross kind of contrarianism for its own sake.
posted by emptythought at 10:23 PM on February 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
No matter how much you think you have saved, it is never enough. Watching bank account going in wrong direction is mentally draining.
I also don't think there is anything you can do right now to change the outcome. They have made up their minds one way or another and will just spend the investigation papering whatever decision they made. I would let it play out. I would act professionally throughout.
I would wait until they fire you, if they do, to negotiate the terms. I would ask to characterize it as a layoff rather than firing.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 11:08 PM on February 19, 2013
I also don't think there is anything you can do right now to change the outcome. They have made up their minds one way or another and will just spend the investigation papering whatever decision they made. I would let it play out. I would act professionally throughout.
I would wait until they fire you, if they do, to negotiate the terms. I would ask to characterize it as a layoff rather than firing.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 11:08 PM on February 19, 2013
Response by poster: There are a lot of people that have responded saying that I should stay for fear of running out of savings.
I have to add that my financial situation is different from most. I don't have any loans to pay off. I have a home, and I can rent out a room or two. And I don't spend much in the first place.
posted by FJT at 11:30 PM on February 19, 2013
I have to add that my financial situation is different from most. I don't have any loans to pay off. I have a home, and I can rent out a room or two. And I don't spend much in the first place.
posted by FJT at 11:30 PM on February 19, 2013
You work at a job where fellow employees take photos of you sleeping and report them to HR?
I hope you realize how completely bonkers this sounds, and what an overwhelmingly unhealthy environment it sounds like? (and for 5 years?)
Regardless of whether you quit or hope they lay you off, you need to get out of there and find a job where you're treated like a human.
Unless your work problems go far beyond falling asleep, I can't see how you can't find at least a couple people from your five years there who could provide you a reference when you go seeking your next job.
posted by Unsomnambulist at 1:08 AM on February 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
I hope you realize how completely bonkers this sounds, and what an overwhelmingly unhealthy environment it sounds like? (and for 5 years?)
Regardless of whether you quit or hope they lay you off, you need to get out of there and find a job where you're treated like a human.
Unless your work problems go far beyond falling asleep, I can't see how you can't find at least a couple people from your five years there who could provide you a reference when you go seeking your next job.
posted by Unsomnambulist at 1:08 AM on February 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
I find it odd that you might be fired for a single instance of sleeping on the job --- IS this the first time, or just one of multiple instances? Between your statement that you were told "a very long time ago (2 years ago)" not to sleep on the job, plus you've admitted to HR that yeah, you WERE asleep ..... for cryin' out loud, unless you're a professional mattress-tester, not sleeping on the job is pretty much a given!
Look, you yourself say you've received multiple 'admonishments', you don't like your job, you don't like your coworkers, and you don't NEED your job, so why are you looking for ways to "defend yourself" so you can stay in a situation you admittedly hate? Either quit now or let them fire you. The benefit to being fired is the chance for unemployment payments. (Oh, if you do choose to resign instead of being fired: keep the resignation letter as short and professional as possible --- a single sentence, like "Please accept my resignation from x as of [date]" is always best.)
posted by easily confused at 2:58 AM on February 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Look, you yourself say you've received multiple 'admonishments', you don't like your job, you don't like your coworkers, and you don't NEED your job, so why are you looking for ways to "defend yourself" so you can stay in a situation you admittedly hate? Either quit now or let them fire you. The benefit to being fired is the chance for unemployment payments. (Oh, if you do choose to resign instead of being fired: keep the resignation letter as short and professional as possible --- a single sentence, like "Please accept my resignation from x as of [date]" is always best.)
posted by easily confused at 2:58 AM on February 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
I would start looking for a new job, but in the meantime, let them fire you instead of quitting. IANAL or employment law expert, but from what I understand, you can still collect unemployment unless you were fired for some kind of "gross misconduct" like stealing from the company, and it's up to the employer to prove that you are not eligible to collect unemployment. Just say you were "let go."
You can always negotiate it so that your employer agrees to say you were "let go" for mutual reasons, that "it just didn't work out" instead of your being fired for fault. People spin the "it just didn't work out" angle all the time. And usually it is accepted as just that, again, unless you were doing something like stealing, or peeing into the break room coffee pot or something like that.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 5:15 AM on February 20, 2013
You can always negotiate it so that your employer agrees to say you were "let go" for mutual reasons, that "it just didn't work out" instead of your being fired for fault. People spin the "it just didn't work out" angle all the time. And usually it is accepted as just that, again, unless you were doing something like stealing, or peeing into the break room coffee pot or something like that.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 5:15 AM on February 20, 2013
In November I told you to start looking for another job. I'm still with you on that.
Let HR investigate. They find what they find. Make them work at firing you.
I got fired in California, and I fought it and won and collected Unemployment.
Start downloading your personal stuff off the computer, wipe your search history in your internet browser and straighten up and fly right.
I'm the queen of passive aggressive, so I'd mount a campaign. Document all kinds of stuff, especially interactions with HR and your manager.
Go to your doctor for a check up, and see if you can have him/her write you an explanation for your episode of sleepiness. Stress, exhaustion, narcolepcy, whatever it is. Most docs will be happy to help you with this. If it's medical, they'll have a MUCH harder time firing you for the occurance. You can even say to HR in your next meeting. "I got concerned and went to see my doctor to see if there was a medical reason for this. Turns out, there was."
Now if they fire you, they run the risk of ADA violations (and in CA, that's a can of worms NOBODY wants to open.)
Again, do your job, look for a new job, cover your ass and DO something, you've been fooling with this for three months now.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:27 AM on February 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
Let HR investigate. They find what they find. Make them work at firing you.
I got fired in California, and I fought it and won and collected Unemployment.
Start downloading your personal stuff off the computer, wipe your search history in your internet browser and straighten up and fly right.
I'm the queen of passive aggressive, so I'd mount a campaign. Document all kinds of stuff, especially interactions with HR and your manager.
Go to your doctor for a check up, and see if you can have him/her write you an explanation for your episode of sleepiness. Stress, exhaustion, narcolepcy, whatever it is. Most docs will be happy to help you with this. If it's medical, they'll have a MUCH harder time firing you for the occurance. You can even say to HR in your next meeting. "I got concerned and went to see my doctor to see if there was a medical reason for this. Turns out, there was."
Now if they fire you, they run the risk of ADA violations (and in CA, that's a can of worms NOBODY wants to open.)
Again, do your job, look for a new job, cover your ass and DO something, you've been fooling with this for three months now.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:27 AM on February 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
Do you have good medical insurance? The very first thing I would do is try to get a sleep study done -- if this turns out to be something that could even possibly be excused as a medical problem, I bet their tune would change, and anyway you would be seen as doing something responsible about the problem.
posted by fiercecupcake at 6:41 AM on February 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by fiercecupcake at 6:41 AM on February 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
DO something, you've been fooling with this for three months now.
Yep. I think you want to leave the unemployment option in the mix. I don't think floating while you look for a job and then maybe taking on boarders in your home is a great solution. A much better plan is to see your doctor (while you have health insurance) as I wonder what is really going on with you, get your rear in gear to find that better job, once you have that offer take two weeks off between jobs to regroup, rest and plan your success.
Your current place sounds toxic but please try to set yourself up so that you are running to something and not just away from a bad situation. Sometimes you do have to just cut bait but you've got all the warning signs now so no excuses. Best of luck to you.
posted by amanda at 6:44 AM on February 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yep. I think you want to leave the unemployment option in the mix. I don't think floating while you look for a job and then maybe taking on boarders in your home is a great solution. A much better plan is to see your doctor (while you have health insurance) as I wonder what is really going on with you, get your rear in gear to find that better job, once you have that offer take two weeks off between jobs to regroup, rest and plan your success.
Your current place sounds toxic but please try to set yourself up so that you are running to something and not just away from a bad situation. Sometimes you do have to just cut bait but you've got all the warning signs now so no excuses. Best of luck to you.
posted by amanda at 6:44 AM on February 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Why does the investigation process require a statement and has it begun?
Yes it has begun. It requires a statement because they need your side of the story to do an investigation.
Would it be better on my resume to quit or to go through their process?
This does not affect your resume in any way other than your ending date will be different.
If I quit before the investigation, will this incident in any way be reported to potential future employers? Will quitting look worse than the alternative to them?
This will not come up*
If I do go through the process and get a black mark and leave my job after the process (willingly or not), would this be an impediment to finding employment elsewhere?
This will not come up*
Are there any other implications to either quitting or going through the process that I should be aware of?
Only if you want Unemployment or you want to be hired back at this company again.
What work emails and correspondence should I grab to defend myself?
Performance evaluations? Medical reports?
When I do submit my resignation, should I mention my own feelings as to why I quit or keep it as professional, cordial, and vague as possible?
"Please accept this letter as notice of my resignation, my last day will be ____. Thank you for the opportunity, FJT"
It sounds like I'm being dismissive doesn't it? I'm not. It is just that this isn't the HUGE deal that I think you are making it up to be. You are a good employee but for some reason they want to get rid of you, this seems mostly just like an excuse to do that. Obviously there is no other prior documentation that would support firing you so now they need something. Look for a new job, you've wanted to for a while anyway. This "investigation" isn't going on some sort of permanent record that everyone will have access to, it is going in your employee file. Only someone with access to your employee file will ever see it. Your employee file will be archived in some sort of dark file room or cabinet never to be heard from again once you leave.
Sure you can do what Ruthless Bunny says but why do you want to? I mean seriously, you hate working there why would you try to prolong the experience? Seek medical advice for the anxiety or depression or what ever it is you think you have but why stay working somewhere that you hate? Especially since you don't have to.
*The only way it would come up is if the HR people (or bosses) are friends outside of work and they do a little "off the record" thing. As an HR person I'd probably talk to my HR friend about how stupid this investigation is and why can't managers just document things (not just performance but also personality incompatibilities) from the beginning so we wouldn't have to waste our time on these ridiculous "investigations" in order to fire someone.
posted by magnetsphere at 7:29 AM on February 20, 2013
Yes it has begun. It requires a statement because they need your side of the story to do an investigation.
Would it be better on my resume to quit or to go through their process?
This does not affect your resume in any way other than your ending date will be different.
If I quit before the investigation, will this incident in any way be reported to potential future employers? Will quitting look worse than the alternative to them?
This will not come up*
If I do go through the process and get a black mark and leave my job after the process (willingly or not), would this be an impediment to finding employment elsewhere?
This will not come up*
Are there any other implications to either quitting or going through the process that I should be aware of?
Only if you want Unemployment or you want to be hired back at this company again.
What work emails and correspondence should I grab to defend myself?
Performance evaluations? Medical reports?
When I do submit my resignation, should I mention my own feelings as to why I quit or keep it as professional, cordial, and vague as possible?
"Please accept this letter as notice of my resignation, my last day will be ____. Thank you for the opportunity, FJT"
It sounds like I'm being dismissive doesn't it? I'm not. It is just that this isn't the HUGE deal that I think you are making it up to be. You are a good employee but for some reason they want to get rid of you, this seems mostly just like an excuse to do that. Obviously there is no other prior documentation that would support firing you so now they need something. Look for a new job, you've wanted to for a while anyway. This "investigation" isn't going on some sort of permanent record that everyone will have access to, it is going in your employee file. Only someone with access to your employee file will ever see it. Your employee file will be archived in some sort of dark file room or cabinet never to be heard from again once you leave.
Sure you can do what Ruthless Bunny says but why do you want to? I mean seriously, you hate working there why would you try to prolong the experience? Seek medical advice for the anxiety or depression or what ever it is you think you have but why stay working somewhere that you hate? Especially since you don't have to.
*The only way it would come up is if the HR people (or bosses) are friends outside of work and they do a little "off the record" thing. As an HR person I'd probably talk to my HR friend about how stupid this investigation is and why can't managers just document things (not just performance but also personality incompatibilities) from the beginning so we wouldn't have to waste our time on these ridiculous "investigations" in order to fire someone.
posted by magnetsphere at 7:29 AM on February 20, 2013
I know of someone who was caught sleeping in a closet under a blanket. They did not get fired.
I pass this on in case you could use a reminder that you are not the worst offender and that whatever your company decides is what they decide. It's not Justice with a capital J. It's just an imperfect decision made by imperfect people with imperfect understanding of you and your situation.
Also, fuck that picture taker. What a low down thing to do.
posted by gentian at 7:52 AM on February 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
I pass this on in case you could use a reminder that you are not the worst offender and that whatever your company decides is what they decide. It's not Justice with a capital J. It's just an imperfect decision made by imperfect people with imperfect understanding of you and your situation.
Also, fuck that picture taker. What a low down thing to do.
posted by gentian at 7:52 AM on February 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
There is abosultely zero reason to quit in anticipation of getting fired. Quitting or getting fired will make no difference about what gets reported to other potential employeers. Either your company releases that kind of information or it does not.
posted by spaltavian at 8:30 AM on February 20, 2013
posted by spaltavian at 8:30 AM on February 20, 2013
I'm not sure that you are on your way to being fired. Some HR departments are very hands-on and investigate every instance of employee misconduct, some are not and only get involved when it's serious. And sometimes the decision is based on your supervisor's history, not yours, as they need the extra help of document their actions. Usually in a corporate atmosphere, there needs to be a history of warnings in your file, both verbal and written. Sleeping on the job ONCE may or may not be considered gross misconduct, but I don't think it is. Usually that phrase is saved for the most serious actions, such as insubordination or theft, but it does depend on the corporate culture where you work. The question is, do you want to stay or not? If you want to keep your job, then I would recommend a written statement along the lines of desuetude's advice above. I think you should try to keep your job, and then start looking for another one. It's much easier to get a job when you already have one, weird but true and especially in this economy.
posted by raisingsand at 9:07 AM on February 20, 2013
posted by raisingsand at 9:07 AM on February 20, 2013
The fact that someone would send a picture like that to HR rather than just tapping you on the shoulder and laughing at you creeps me out. It definitely sounds like this is not a good place to work.
That said, it is always easier to find a new job while you still have the old one. There's no reason to make it easier for them by quitting without making sure you have all your ducks in a row. I like ruthless_bunny's idea of seeing a doctor and getting some kind of medical certificate to explain the napping. If you play your cards right, the doctor might even sign you off sick for a couple of weeks, during which you could look for a new job while still getting paid.
posted by rpfields at 10:57 AM on February 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
That said, it is always easier to find a new job while you still have the old one. There's no reason to make it easier for them by quitting without making sure you have all your ducks in a row. I like ruthless_bunny's idea of seeing a doctor and getting some kind of medical certificate to explain the napping. If you play your cards right, the doctor might even sign you off sick for a couple of weeks, during which you could look for a new job while still getting paid.
posted by rpfields at 10:57 AM on February 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
While it's great that you can financially survive long-term unemployment, do not let that factor into your decision.
1) Walking away from a job without next steps looks worse than getting fired. It looks like you knew you were going to fired, and left before they could build a criminal case against you. I had a boss leave suddenly, and we later found out about insider trading allegations. People will think the absolute worse.
2) Getting fired is not a huge deal. Jobs can be a poor fit for any number of reasons, and even great jobs occasionally get squeeze out of existence. Be prepared to explain why that job was a poor fit, and how those circumstances do not apply to the current job for which you're interviewing.
3) Get Unemployment. Again, eyebrows raise when you say you're not getting it. You only get disqualified if you've done something super unethical.
4) Look for a job like you are hurting for the cash. The longer you are unemployed, the longer you are likely to be unemployed. Six months turns into a year turns into five years. The longer you sit out, the more likely you will need to take a step down when you return to the workforce.
Obviously there are exceptions. Exceptions work when you can provide a strong narrative about why you aren't a lazy fuck-up. "I decided to take a year off and travel for a year before getting married." "I went back to school to focus on X" "We just had a newborn, and I felt I needed some time to bond with my child"
Phone it in at work, and let the wheels of HR bureacracy churn. In the meantime, take stock of your skills and your goals. Take ownership of your career so that it doesn't overshadow your life. Decide what you would like to be doing, and what skills transfer. And then negotiate. Both with yourself and with potential jobs. Be flexible enough that you have a wide number of options, but be targeted enough that you can be interested and interesting in any given interview. That might mean you need a lot of informational interviews to find out what is interesting about some jobs.
If you sense that it's going to be a long slog for the next opening, be strategic. When I was laid off in 09, I immediately signed up for a few business classes. I haaaaaated them. But it gave me a great answer that helped allay those "why have you been on the market for three months?" fears.
posted by politikitty at 4:18 PM on February 20, 2013
1) Walking away from a job without next steps looks worse than getting fired. It looks like you knew you were going to fired, and left before they could build a criminal case against you. I had a boss leave suddenly, and we later found out about insider trading allegations. People will think the absolute worse.
2) Getting fired is not a huge deal. Jobs can be a poor fit for any number of reasons, and even great jobs occasionally get squeeze out of existence. Be prepared to explain why that job was a poor fit, and how those circumstances do not apply to the current job for which you're interviewing.
3) Get Unemployment. Again, eyebrows raise when you say you're not getting it. You only get disqualified if you've done something super unethical.
4) Look for a job like you are hurting for the cash. The longer you are unemployed, the longer you are likely to be unemployed. Six months turns into a year turns into five years. The longer you sit out, the more likely you will need to take a step down when you return to the workforce.
Obviously there are exceptions. Exceptions work when you can provide a strong narrative about why you aren't a lazy fuck-up. "I decided to take a year off and travel for a year before getting married." "I went back to school to focus on X" "We just had a newborn, and I felt I needed some time to bond with my child"
Phone it in at work, and let the wheels of HR bureacracy churn. In the meantime, take stock of your skills and your goals. Take ownership of your career so that it doesn't overshadow your life. Decide what you would like to be doing, and what skills transfer. And then negotiate. Both with yourself and with potential jobs. Be flexible enough that you have a wide number of options, but be targeted enough that you can be interested and interesting in any given interview. That might mean you need a lot of informational interviews to find out what is interesting about some jobs.
If you sense that it's going to be a long slog for the next opening, be strategic. When I was laid off in 09, I immediately signed up for a few business classes. I haaaaaated them. But it gave me a great answer that helped allay those "why have you been on the market for three months?" fears.
posted by politikitty at 4:18 PM on February 20, 2013
Response by poster: Thanks to everyone that responded. I ended up resigning from my position, and they gave me my two weeks pay and I left early. I had an option to pursue worker's comp, because I said that leaving was stress-related (that's true). But I decided not to pursue this, because I read other accounts of people who filed similar claims. It seems the burden of proof lies upon them, and it's a very grueling process that includes strangers prying through your life and medical records, and even then it will most likely end in nothing.
I'm seeing if I can apply for unemployment insurance. I understand my resignation makes it unlikely, but it seems to be a much less invasive process than worker's comp. I'll update more if anyone is interested. Thank you again.
posted by FJT at 11:51 PM on March 7, 2013
I'm seeing if I can apply for unemployment insurance. I understand my resignation makes it unlikely, but it seems to be a much less invasive process than worker's comp. I'll update more if anyone is interested. Thank you again.
posted by FJT at 11:51 PM on March 7, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
Most companies will not say anything formally to future employers except the dates you worked there. Informally, someone at the HR department might say something about you... but IMO, it's unlikely to change based on the results of the investigation.
Personally, I would try to breathe deeply and manage anxiety, look for another job, and stick around until they fire you. You may not absolutely need the unemployment checks, but they're nice to have. I think that what's done is done, and you may be able to negotiate to have it considered a layoff versus a firing.
posted by chickenmagazine at 7:42 PM on February 19, 2013 [1 favorite]