How can I get along in a foreign country I don't like?
December 2, 2012 2:33 AM   Subscribe

I have moved to a foreign country and am looking for suggestions as to how to get along in the best way possible until I can return to the US. I am a single woman with a professional background. I came to this country to reconnect with my ancestral roots. I have found the culture and behavior really appalling and irritating on a profound level as well as being sexist at a very deep level.

Also many people here think Americans are the cash cow. I am not an "ugly American" and on the contrary spent much time learning about this place and its history, but that is not the same as experiencing it firsthand. This is a very traditional country with a facade of modernity. I always knew that the US was an unusual country but this experience has faced me with exactly how freedom-loving and American I really am.
I have passed through the newbie issues here, have had difficulty learning the language (and not because I can't) and even though I have found an MO here, of sorts, I am constantly appalled by the culture and behavior of many people. And yet, it is my ancestral culture and I cannot reject it entirely.
I have found my energy and will sapped because there are very few like-minded people here that I can connect with. I am generally a very self-reliant person but this is too much.
I have to stay here until I can find work back in the US to reasonably support myself. I have to do this search long distance because I cannot travel back temporarily to do so.
What I am looking for is not so much concrete suggestions like groups to join (although that might be helpful) as attitudes or strategies to employ. To date, the negativity has impinged on my ability to put myself totally into work-seeking.
As I am a mature person with long experience I have already tried many attitude changes, tricks and tips etc., being in nature, etc. Nothing seems to work for long against the constant assault of negative and hard-faced attitude that I see here. It might help to explain that I relocated from Northern California, and a live and let live attitude is my inner wish. Very not possible here, where the smallest thing done is up for analysis and judgment.
posted by malach_sadriel to Society & Culture (27 answers total) 6 users marked this as a favorite
Hope this isn't too condescending and maybe you've already tried this, but while abroad I've found it helpful to remember that people's motivations are basically the same everywhere, and within different cultures there are just different protocols for expressing it.

In some cultures, for instance, people generally (always variation among individuals etc.) aren't too friendly at first, but only gradually warm up to you. I've come to find this sort of approach really gratifying, as I always know where I stand and I can rely on these friends to be honest with me, even about stupid stuff like whether they like my shoes (if I know I can trust them about my shoes, I know I can trust them about more important stuff like whether I should send an email because I know they'll tell me if it's dumb).

I have become suspicious of people who are overly warm toward me right away (I'm from the US; I used to be one of these people). I know they can't possibly like me that much that quickly. So why are they lying to me? Sometimes I hear these people talking behind the backs of people to whom they are outwardly very friendly.

This is a little bit of a digression, but basically when I was in Eastern Europe for the first time, I wondered why everyone acted like they hated me and wanted me to die and I felt oppressed by what I experienced as wave after wave of unsmiling hostility, and now I've done a complete 180 and regard this approach to social interaction as the best and most honest way for everyone to conduct their affairs and I think we could all stand to be a little more like people from the Czech Republic (sorry for picking on the Czechs).

I don't think it's as simple as having an open mind, or at least it wasn't for me. You've got to make friends in your new location to understand where they're coming from (or that's how it worked in my case, anyway). The behavior might not be universal, but the reasoning behind it often is.
posted by 4bulafia at 3:11 AM on December 2, 2012 [11 favorites]

Different cultures are different. I know most Americans coming to my country are surprised because they expect something, and it is there, but it is entirely different from what they imagined, so they can't find it. And making friends here is really difficult. And some things that are considered normative behavior in the US are disregarded or even ridiculed here.
But the thing is, even here we make friends and we have fun, and there are a myriad of subcultures where people do whatever they like. Because that is how it is, all over the world. I think maybe, when we live in other countries, we have too much respect for the surface of their culture. I certainly did when I lived in the US. My feelings in the beginning of my stay there could be described in exactly the words you are using: appalling, irritating, a traditional country with a facade of modernity. But eventually I found out how to live in America, and was very close to staying on for life. Key to that transformation was that told myself there must be some way this all makes sense, because otherwise, there could not be a society. And slowly, I cracked the code.
posted by mumimor at 3:28 AM on December 2, 2012 [4 favorites]

Perhaps your focus should be on getting back to the US even if you can't arrange employment beforehand. It's going to be very difficult to job search from a foreign country unless your skills are highly specialized. (It can be hard to job search from one state to another, let alone another country.) Can you 'settle' for retail, waitressing, grocery store or similar work upon your arrival and maybe a roommate situation with friends or family for a few months until you can obtain professional work? You might also try to work with recruiters who understand that you're available to start with little notice but can't interview in person.

But in the meantime, can you focus on the aspects of the culture you do like? Maybe that means focusing on learning how to cook regional food. For example, in highly paternal and sexist countries, the domain of women can be limited to family. Instead of seeing this as oppression, think about the importance of family and preparing family meals. Or maybe it's something artistic that's practiced mostly by women like dance or textiles or other art.
posted by shoesietart at 3:35 AM on December 2, 2012 [1 favorite]

The key to connecting with your ancestral roots is realizing why your ancestors left that place.
posted by mannequito at 3:35 AM on December 2, 2012 [37 favorites]

I've felt pretty similar to you before. What helped me was recognizing that at least part of the problem was culture shock. This is from Lonely Planet's Healthy Travel Guide (Africa):

Second Stage and Symptom of Culture Shock:

Hostility as the novelty wears off and the differences start to irritate - you may feel critical of your host country, stereotyping local people; you may feel weepy, irritable, defensive, homesick, lonely and isolated, perhaps worried about your physical health.

What helped me was also something I read in that Lonely Planet Guide:

"you don't achieve anything by succumbing to the temptation of disparaging everything local" or as I paraphrased it and repeated it mentally: "You have nothing to gain by disparaging everything local".

The other thing that helped was magically moving to the Third Stage and Symptom of Culture Shock:

Adjustment. When you start to feel more comfortable in your new lifestyle and with the new culture

and the Fourth:

Adaptation. When you lose that "us and them" feeling.

good luck!
posted by pick_the_flowers at 4:20 AM on December 2, 2012 [5 favorites]

I don't think you have to accept or come to terms with your ancestral culture. It's okay to think certain practices or attitudes are unacceptable.

However, you owe it to yourself to be happy, or at least not unhappy, which does mean coming to terms with living in the culture on a day to day basis.

I don't know how you will achieve this equilibrium, but I can say from personal experience that dissatisfaction with a host culture often stems from a) misunderstandings b) a sene of powerlessness and b) a sense of alienation.

With me, my experience of Japan changed dramatically once I learned to read - really read, at a high school graduate level - and speak professionally.

Learning to read opened up new worlds to me, and new voices. Japan wasn't monolithic anymore, there were different opinions and points of view. I also started to read a lot about personal interests in Japanese. I became engaged with the culture.

Putting time and effort into learning to speak professionally paid off too. People treated me differently - normally - although you would have to have pretty thick skin to never notice being treated differently as a foreigner in Japan.

I don't know what the solution is for you, but getting engaged in the culture is really helpful. Finding that thing that you like and learning more about it. For me it was local history, local natural history, and calligraphy. And local booze. I liked to drink local booze. It was the turning point.
posted by KokuRyu at 4:41 AM on December 2, 2012 [5 favorites]

I'm sure it hasn't been easy for you, but I'd recommend you to see this experience as more of a culture shock than an intrinsic irreconcilable difference in values.

To be honest, having your own values is one thing, but what bothers me a little from your post is your seeming moral superiority over the people in that country, and lack of respect or empathy for how that country was formed, or how people came to be who they are. It is an absolute given that as a foreigner who has just arrived in a new country that you will not instantly understand their culture or the way of living on a profound level no matter how hard you try, yet you are not hesitant to say that it is "really appalling and irritating on a profound level" as if there is no doubt in your perception of what you've experienced. I find this close minded, and probably the root of your dissatisfaction and increasing frustration.

This is not to say that you haven't tried to understand them, I'm sure you have and spent a great effort assimilating, hence your disappointment. But I still say that there is a great possibility that you have been too quick to judge at this point. And even if you don't like certain things you see in that country, keeping in mind that they are the same human beings as you are, and that we are all a product of environment should make you naturally respect them, keep things in perspective, and open doors for communication. Especially since your motto is live and let live, respect is imperative, even if you feel it is not reciprocated.

I'd also see this as a good opportunity to learn about differences in culture and therefore what it means to be human in essence. I think it's natural to feel connected to your home country once you're out, but I would reconsider your justification of your emotions by saying you are "American" and "freedom-loving" and question what that really means through this experience.

But that all being said, of course there are places we don't fit in, or we don't like for myriad of reasons. We don't need to force ourselves, but at the same time we should always be aware of the power of culture shock and its impact, and remind ourselves not to jump to conclusions so rapidly based on that shock.
posted by snufkin5 at 5:11 AM on December 2, 2012 [7 favorites]

It may help to set a date for your return to the US. If you know you only have three months left, for example, you can try to enjoy the good parts while brushing off the bad because you know it's only for three months. Even if you can't find like-minded people, try to surround yourself with people who are more positive about the country. I've noticed that groups of people who are constantly negative end up reinforcing each other's unhappiness.

Lately, I have not been dealing with the sexism thing very well, so I have no advice there. Swimming in toxic water every day is exhausting, and improving my language skills made it worse because it made some things harder to ignore.
posted by betweenthebars at 6:07 AM on December 2, 2012

I am not an "ugly American" and on the contrary spent much time learning about this place and its history

Then you can't be too surprised, can you?

Despite this, you are experiencing culture shock. The good news is that this stage passes, but not without some cooperation from you. I have to second what KokuRyu said. When I lived in Japan, I found a stark difference in the expatriate experience of those foreigners who had even intermediate spoken and reading proficiency in Japanese and those who had zero to none. Those who did not or could not learn Japanese often became bitter and aggrieved once the novelties of talking toilets wore off to the point where several I knew went back home. I find this to be tragic because I imagine that these people will now have a rather negative opinion of Japan for life and will tell it to those who care to listen. Of course, the other side of this coin is David Aldwinkle, who became a Japanese citizen so he could be an aggrieved PITA permanently.

Until you get some decent proficiency in the local language, you will not be able to engage with the locals in any meaningful sense. There is no such thing a a monolithic entity called a "culture". Culture is simply what people do. I assure you that not everyone in Country X, whatever it is, does the same thing. You will have a very difficult time meeting and engaging these people until you can speak with them. One of the best friends I made in Japan was someone I struck up conversation with while sitting at a restaurant counter; that would not have happened if I were at the point and gesture stage of language proficiency. I've made a few comments on AsMeFi in the past on language learning, and there are other polyglots here as well. You might search the site for emails on that front. Of course, it would help if you could name the language because there may be those here who have successfully learned it who could offer more specific advice. While there are general language-learning strategies of universal application, each language requires its own approach.

So no, "being in nature" is not going to help you see the locals as people rather than cogs in a monolith. You need to make an effort to engage people and then you stand a good chance of finding those who are more likeminded, although you may find that perhaps even then such people may not be so enlightened as to have northern California sensibilities. Do not be so morally superior as to think that your ancestors left because they could not stand to be enlightened ones among a bunch of troglodytes. That is a rather unfair caricature. Here's a shock - you mind start adopting and internalizing some of the values that are so distressing you right now. Imagine coming away with that from living abroad! I have to imagine that this was part of the plan unless you got on the plane thinking that you would simply be a passive, academic observer.

Again, it would help to know what country we are talking about so you could potentially receive more specific advice from those who have been there (and may still be there). You haven't the slightest idea if one of the people reading your question lives in your neighborhood and is dying to show you the Country X they know.
posted by Tanizaki at 6:07 AM on December 2, 2012 [5 favorites]

In my limited experience, just knowing a few words and phrases in a different language - hello, excuse me, I'm sorry, thank you - will endear you a little to those around you. I've seen people's expressions change after sharing a few poorly pronounced words in their language.
posted by kat518 at 6:16 AM on December 2, 2012

Do some volunteering. Get connected to locals who are working hard to make changes. Maybe find an NGO with locals and foreigners working together. Maybe they're working on woman's issues, or rural healthcare, or water access, or community organizing, or education for children or adukts, or developing sustainable agriculture. you'll find people who believe in the country and it's people, and are putting their energy into helping it be more equitable, effective, and safe, all while helping to build community. Do the research to find a legitimate organization and jump in. It'll help your language skills too.
posted by barnone at 6:22 AM on December 2, 2012 [2 favorites]

I've lived abroad in different, but basically really similar, Western European countries, and my whole experience was radically different depending on whether i was a volunteer in a psychiatric unit, a cleaner, or a foreign exchange student. That's not much help, but, if you went abroad to work, you are probably - ok, almost definitely! - in a culture where your friends and family are the people you know, and everyone else is a stranger. We live in a weird world, us Westerners (i'm uk) - most of the people we know and are friends with are complete strangers. They're not our relatives, they don't live next door to us, they're nothing to do with us! We are totally used to interacting friendlily with strangers. That's just incomprehensible in most foreign cultures. Even in the West, many immigrant communities and all people with large families basically just socialise with their family, and everyone else is an outsider. If this is the case, should you get accepted into a family - if you're the girlfriend of a cousin of my inlaw, for instance - then you are my family, and i will treat you as a sister - and expect you to do the same for me (any favour i ask).

Finally, there are some differences - e.g. in the far East, conversation is 'hearer-responsible' - the listener is responsible for understanding the speaker's meaning, for us, we are responsible for conveying it when we speak - and authority distance, which can explain a lot when you read about them.

I wrote a diary, cried in my room a lot and had a breakdown when i got back. Oh, and took up bodybuilding (i am a couch potato by nature) and language learning (OCD). But i hear drink is popular solution.
posted by maiamaia at 7:05 AM on December 2, 2012 [5 favorites]

I was very frustrated with the sexual harassment and general interactions I had with men when I worked in Peru. I found the machismo ingrained in the society to be incredibly offputting and did not like most of my time there for various reasons, most of which were related to the way I interacted with men and watched them interact with women. Today, I have very little that is good to say about Peru. My Spanish is incredibly shitty and I had a very poor understanding of Peruvian culture and history. In Kenya, I experienced sexual harassment too, and I was frustrated with a lot of my interactions where people expected me to bankroll them, or what I took as friendship to be romantic, or etc. But I loved being in Kenya. And I speak Swahili well. And I studied Kenyan history. And try to keep up with social development and politics and so on. I have a context for the irritating things, and I have a better sense of how to work around it. And I love and miss Kenya.

If you are serious about staying in this country, you need to give its irritations a context for yourself. People see Americans as sources of cash? Well, what's been the relationship the US has had with that particular country? Is there a colonial history here? Are there wealthy white people who come to vacation and do obnoxious things but pay a lot of money? Not that any of that excuses peoples' assumptions about you, but when you can understand why they have these assumptions, you can work around them and have meaningful interactions with people.

You need to work hard at learning the language - you've had difficulties, but "not because you can't," so address those difficulties. You'll only ever have the most superficial of encounters if you don't know what people are saying and they don't know what you are saying unless they are particularly educated and know English. You've moved to that country and you're the one unsatisfied - the onus is on you to do a little more work and get acquainted with things.

And if you're that dissatisfied and don't feel it is worth putting the effort into acquainting yourself with things (and it may not be - I still don't feel any particular urge to learn Spanish so I can go back and make myself love Peru), then start making concrete plans to go back to the US. Are you working in this country? Save until you have enough for a ticket and then get back to the US. It's probably better to be unemployed and searching for a job locally, but more comfortable in your own skin, than unemployed and searching for a job from a difficult-to-leave foreign location where you viscerally dislike everything. It won't make you a particularly attractive-sounding job candidate.
posted by ChuraChura at 7:18 AM on December 2, 2012 [6 favorites]

And yet, it is my ancestral culture and I cannot reject it entirely.

Why not? I'm Irish American and was raised Catholic and have 0 interest in living in Ireland, engaging with Irish people or being Catholic. Your family left for a reason.

In any case, seconding everyone saying to learn the language. Being a foreigner who can't speak the local language sucks EVERYWHERE, even in America.
posted by empath at 8:36 AM on December 2, 2012 [2 favorites]

You don't have to reject it entirely. Take the good. Leave the bad.
posted by bq at 8:53 AM on December 2, 2012 [1 favorite]

Some people are just not cut out for adapting to foreign cultures. That's okay too.
posted by dydecker at 9:10 AM on December 2, 2012 [1 favorite]

Why not try to find Northern California expats in this country to hang out with, at least occasionally. CA types love to travel, and you can find a small subculture of at least one other person who "gets it" about your experience. Whatever country you're in, I can almost guarantee that someone from back home is there.

If you like, post a question in a week or so about where you are, and how to find expats there. We can help!
posted by 3491again at 10:40 AM on December 2, 2012

barnone's suggestion is excellent! Volunteering helped me get to know Americans when I was there, and I am always very impressed when foreigners do volunteer work here.
posted by mumimor at 11:53 AM on December 2, 2012

A word of warning. A little bit of hanging out with expats is fun/cathartic sometimes, but ultimately you're just bonding over your own insularity and giving each other a false impression of the merit of your shared prejudices (and therefore making yourself more miserable in the long run) under the cover of bonding over how you are the only people who "get it." This is appealing when you're in the throes of culture shock but it will only prolong the process.

Meanwhile, after a couple of weeks of brashly complaining to natives (as opposed to fellow Americans) about British currency being all coins, I had to accept that there are some advantages to coin currency (never handing over the wrong denomination because everything's a different size/shape/color, never accidentally forking over two of a unit of currency at the same time). Still skeptical (come on, it's so much lighter!), but after a few rounds I've come to accept that my preferences aren't based on the inherent superiority of paper money. I just grew up with it, that's all. And I had to concede to whoever pointed it out to me that I've never handed over the wrong bill.

Basically, if you really want to cure your culture shock, I recommend being totally condescending about your beef of the day to the point of self-parody. You can carry on with your quaint coin system if you must. Really lay it on thick. If they're anything like most of people I've encountered over the course of accidentally employing this tactic (not really a "tactic" per se, just me making a fool of myself), the people in your country will relish taking you down a few pegs by exposing the flaws in your cherished emotional reasoning. Rip the band-aid off. None of this hanging out with expats and coddling each other and confirming each other's distorted kneejerk impressions of a place none of you is in a position to defend.

I think it's an important part of the process to expose your frustrations to the ridicule of a native, or several natives over a period of several months if necessary. Maybe some people would consider it bad form to put your host on the defensive, but it's also a great way to blow off steam and to separate which of your convictions are emotions you have and which of them are the product of a unique insight into reality you were bestowed with upon being born in god's own country.

(I still think it's bogus that the hot and cold water taps are different. My German friend and I are in agreement that Brits need to get with the program when it comes to hot and cold water taps.)

I think the quickest way to become disabused (potentially) of your convictions is actually to own them, loudly and with no undue reverence for what seems to you to be a dumb practice. Don't be all, "I guess it's OK for some people but in America we just value freedom more and that's that." Call a spade a spade.

"You guys know you're in the stone age when it comes to how you treat women, right? What on earth are you even doing right now?" If that's what you're thinking, go ahead and say it. Get this stuff of your chest.
posted by 4bulafia at 12:53 PM on December 2, 2012 [3 favorites]

It's not clear to me what you're doing in this country, as in your every day routine. Do you work? When I visited other countries, my experience was vastly different depending on what kind of routine and camaraderie I enjoyed. Studying/working on projects/meeting goals/doing what people told me made the experience much easier. Just "traveling" and "existing" were awful and I got very depressed because--right?--I was acting like a depressed person, i.e. not doing a routine, sleeping all day, lost in introspection.

Finding GOOD things that you enjoy and are GOOD for you might be good. If you can add some of those things, and then also have some goals that you try to achieve, and then work on your positive attitude given the fact that you won't have to be there always (assuming your goals involve eventually getting out of there), maybe things will start to seem sunnier.

Just thinking, "There might be something here I don't understand completely and maybe once I learn more I will be able to accept it," could be helpful.

I admire what you are trying to do! And, yes, the U.S. is beautifully distinct.
posted by ramenopres at 1:18 PM on December 2, 2012

Thanks for the helpful answers and insights. Much of what people noted is accurate-esp learning the language skills, accepting the centrality of family, and moral superiority. This last, a zinger but true. Also not hanging around negative expats. One problem is that I came here for religious as well as national cultural reasons; I did not have expectations, but while I have met some truly sincere people, others have been very problematic. People are very involved in their religious subgroups; not for me.

I truly appreciate the time and effort people have taken to write in. I will say however that this past week I had an all-day experience over a minor problem, and wound up the next day getting allergic symptoms (which have come on very strong here) and the two days after that recovering. As I have to get practical problems resolved, I am stuck trying to navigate. I think language is key.
posted by malach_sadriel at 1:25 PM on December 2, 2012

I feel like, despite all of your preparation, you've still set yourself up with a lot of false preconceptions about your time abroad.

No mater how much preparation you do you will still be surprised/annoyed/confused/enchanted by things at your destination. I'm well traveled, but I still get culture shock when I go back to the town I grew up in. It drives me freaking nuts! And that's the only city I knew for 1/3 of my life.

"Ugly American": I'm sure you're not. But you're going to be pigeonholed as that anyway no mater how much you try to escape it. You just need to let that go. Continue to behave as the Nice American, but when you get discriminated against (or for) you have to let it roll off your back. Because you're not a native, regardless of your ancestry or study. It takes at least a dozen years embedded somewhere to become fluent in the culture. I know it hurts because your cause is noble and these are your people and all, but they don't know that. Most won't care.

Try to limit the contact with any kind of expat community. Even the positive ones will change your impressions of the culture from your own personal experiences. (Though they can be a life saver helping navigate some of the weirder cul de sacs of local bureaucracy.) Force yourself to engage with locals on their terms. Become a regular at small, local businesses (cafes, restaurants, bars). It'll take a while and it can occasionally be demoralizing to be the lone foreigner, but they can get to know you as an actual person, not as a tourist passing through.

When you're in a foreign culture with a language you struggle with simply being humble and curious can get you a long way. I know you're curious, but I'm not sure about the humble part. I think you need to drop the "I'm on a crusade to discover the land of my ancestors!" vibe I'm getting and go more with the flow. Much of your difficulty comes form it not meeting your expectations.

If you stink at the local language learn how to ask questions. The more they talk the less you do, and you appear interested in them. You might not understand the answers, but that often doesn't matter.

Every culture has things that every other culture finds deeply ugly, even the one you were born into. But you're not adopting this culture as your own, you're really just there to study. You don't have to drink the cool-aide. So forget the crap you hate, pay attention to the stuff you like. What is their music like? Art? Spirituality? The cleanness of the bathrooms? Effectiveness of local trains? Availability of good food? Great dirty jokes? There must be something. Find it, revel in it. Maybe you can combine that with the "become a regular" advice above. If the country happens to be Japan there are cultural study visas available to study an element of Japanese culture. The few people I know who have been on one of these has found them transformative.

Similarly every culture has problem people. Just like back home, avoid them whenever possible, limit involvement when you can't. Similarly, spend time with and reward those who are helpful and understanding. It's not a culture thing, it's a human thing.

I don't think there's anything wrong with leaving your ancestral culture behind. After all, your ancestors did. If your family came to America within living memory, reach out to your ancestors and talk with them about it. If not... well then you're pretty far removed from this foreign culture, and it probably wasn't that significant in your life up to this point, so don't push it.
posted by Ookseer at 3:13 PM on December 2, 2012

I would focus on trying to make friends with women instead of men. Women tend to be more flexible and open-minded about cultural issues. I think in general you will find them to be less rigid and less traditional than men. FYI I am a man.
posted by Dansaman at 10:38 PM on December 2, 2012

Dansaman can you expand on this comment?
posted by malach_sadriel at 2:24 AM on December 3, 2012

A few words of further explanation. I have been here six years. I got quite sick the first year; the effects lasted for two more years. Very unused to this as I am ordinarily quite a healthy person. I determined to return to the States after maybe 2.5 years but could not put this into action. I worked over the first four years and have been trying to market my skills--and do other things, including learning the language better--over the past two. I did not push coming back to the States a while go as the economy was shaky and since I work in IT and have seen a couple of downturns I realized how difficult it could be. As I have my worldly goods with me, including some irreplaceable items like paintings, moving back will be an expense and planned and even storing things here ditto. My relatives from far back were in several countries before the US. They came to the US primarily for economic reasons but I don't know if they had any idea how much their culture and religion would be eroded. When I decided to move back to the US I started setting timetables but for various reasons could not keep them going. The bottom line is that this experience remains very taxing for whatever duration it may be.
posted by malach_sadriel at 2:57 AM on December 3, 2012

Have you considered signing up for couch surfing? Maybe hosting some visitors and showing them around the city can help you feel more at home there. Sometimes explaining things to others helps them make more sense to you.
posted by empath at 5:19 AM on December 3, 2012

Good point, empath. Most suggestions like yours I have tried to put into effect and they have not manifested, but I guess its time to try them again for the second, third etc time. Fall down seven times, get up eight. Thanks.
posted by malach_sadriel at 12:42 AM on December 4, 2012

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