TURN THAT CRAP DOWN!
August 19, 2005 10:05 PM Subscribe
I hate to make sweeping generalizations, but why is Southeast Asia so terribly obnoxious? Help me understand this bit of cultural weirdness.
I've been in Vietnam for two months, and I was in Thailand, Laos and Cambodia for two before that. One thing I noticed was that, while the Asian ideas of "saving face" and being polite in conversations are extremely prevelent, it seems like everyone completely lacks common courtesy when they're not dealing with you face to face. Examples include (mostly from my experience in Vietnam, but in other countries as well) - playing really bad (that's subjective, I realize) pop at 6:30 in the morning as loud as one possibly can, honking horns for no reason whatsoever, letting vehicles deteriorate to the point where they spew smog everywhere, never turning off cell phones and talking on them very loudly in inappropriate situations (a nightbus, for example), etc.
Why is this? It seems to run completely counter to other cultural ideals, yet nobody seems ashamed of it at all. My pet theory is that, if annoyed by something, nobody would ever confront anyone else because of the potential loss of face. But I don't know, I'm just a dumb whitey, so I'd like to hear everyone else's thoughts on the matter.
I've been in Vietnam for two months, and I was in Thailand, Laos and Cambodia for two before that. One thing I noticed was that, while the Asian ideas of "saving face" and being polite in conversations are extremely prevelent, it seems like everyone completely lacks common courtesy when they're not dealing with you face to face. Examples include (mostly from my experience in Vietnam, but in other countries as well) - playing really bad (that's subjective, I realize) pop at 6:30 in the morning as loud as one possibly can, honking horns for no reason whatsoever, letting vehicles deteriorate to the point where they spew smog everywhere, never turning off cell phones and talking on them very loudly in inappropriate situations (a nightbus, for example), etc.
Why is this? It seems to run completely counter to other cultural ideals, yet nobody seems ashamed of it at all. My pet theory is that, if annoyed by something, nobody would ever confront anyone else because of the potential loss of face. But I don't know, I'm just a dumb whitey, so I'd like to hear everyone else's thoughts on the matter.
You seem to realize that the music is only bad in your subjective taste. But why wouldn't things like personal space, public noise, or vehicle maintenance be also culturally subjective? Those things seem to be at the root of cultural identity; community, communication, perspective. You say it's counter to other ideals within their society, but most (all) societies are hypocritical.
We just don't think of it as being hypocritical, but rather a complexly layered system of rights, intentions, expectations, assumptions and understanding that may or may not be coded in an obvious way. In some cases one aspect of our expectations wins, and in another, it's something else. Part of what actively living in another culture can do is make us understand what kind of unspoken assumptions and expectations we have; we don't learn these at school, at work, in the hospital, in the court of law, but as Althusser would say, these are all apparatuses to make us subjects under a certain set of rules. The rules are different there, which make a different kind of subjectivity. Travel helps us (me) realize and understand what it is that makes us all so very unique and different.
Then again, all of this cultural relativism went out the window when I was on a 5am ferry from the mainland to an island in Halong Bay in North Vietnam. The really, really, really loud karaoke* with screeching microphones and a broken propeller made me rethink all of this quite significantly.
When someone is doing something that you see as obnoxious, think about what they would say if they were brought into a similar situation in your own home country. The music? Horrible and quiet. The cars? Far too fixed up to make the men in suits happy without financial aid. The personal space? Too lonely and impersonal. It helps to put it into perspective and not want to throttle the person who you consider to be obnoxious.
People can tell you it's just the SE Asians, or it's just in this area, or it's just about this one thing (noise or whatever), but really, this is what it all comes down to: it's your job to figure out the rules, not compare their actions to your rules.
*Even the fact that the word "karaoke" is not in the MeFi dictionary points to this concept.
posted by fionab at 10:58 PM on August 19, 2005
We just don't think of it as being hypocritical, but rather a complexly layered system of rights, intentions, expectations, assumptions and understanding that may or may not be coded in an obvious way. In some cases one aspect of our expectations wins, and in another, it's something else. Part of what actively living in another culture can do is make us understand what kind of unspoken assumptions and expectations we have; we don't learn these at school, at work, in the hospital, in the court of law, but as Althusser would say, these are all apparatuses to make us subjects under a certain set of rules. The rules are different there, which make a different kind of subjectivity. Travel helps us (me) realize and understand what it is that makes us all so very unique and different.
Then again, all of this cultural relativism went out the window when I was on a 5am ferry from the mainland to an island in Halong Bay in North Vietnam. The really, really, really loud karaoke* with screeching microphones and a broken propeller made me rethink all of this quite significantly.
When someone is doing something that you see as obnoxious, think about what they would say if they were brought into a similar situation in your own home country. The music? Horrible and quiet. The cars? Far too fixed up to make the men in suits happy without financial aid. The personal space? Too lonely and impersonal. It helps to put it into perspective and not want to throttle the person who you consider to be obnoxious.
People can tell you it's just the SE Asians, or it's just in this area, or it's just about this one thing (noise or whatever), but really, this is what it all comes down to: it's your job to figure out the rules, not compare their actions to your rules.
*Even the fact that the word "karaoke" is not in the MeFi dictionary points to this concept.
posted by fionab at 10:58 PM on August 19, 2005
Mmm, just remembered one other thing that you may or may not have noticed, and this fits right in with your saving face/politeness guess:
have you noticed that when you ask for directions, you always get an answer, whether the person knows the answer or not? (ie: it's never: "I don't know") You need to become adept at guaging the pause between question and answer to know if the person is just trying to be polite, and there seems to be no realization that giving you wrong directions could really be putting you out. But it is a genuine stance on etiquette, even if bizarre (and inconvenient) to Westerners.
posted by dreamsign at 11:02 PM on August 19, 2005
have you noticed that when you ask for directions, you always get an answer, whether the person knows the answer or not? (ie: it's never: "I don't know") You need to become adept at guaging the pause between question and answer to know if the person is just trying to be polite, and there seems to be no realization that giving you wrong directions could really be putting you out. But it is a genuine stance on etiquette, even if bizarre (and inconvenient) to Westerners.
posted by dreamsign at 11:02 PM on August 19, 2005
It's because the people here have different ideas of etiquette. One of them being that backpackers who complain publicly are obnoxious.
posted by soiled cowboy at 11:19 PM on August 19, 2005
posted by soiled cowboy at 11:19 PM on August 19, 2005
Errr... I lived in the Philippines for a couple months and, contrary to your experience, I came back home and thought, "Why are Americans so fucking obnoxious?!"
posted by nathan_teske at 11:27 PM on August 19, 2005
posted by nathan_teske at 11:27 PM on August 19, 2005
I did the SE Asia route a couple of years ago, and found both the backpackers and the locals in some places to be obnoxious, but I'd have to say the backpackers come in first place with that. Thailand and Vietnam (and the up-and-coming Cambodia) have well-worn tourist trails, and folks in the service/tout industries are well aware of the tendencies of foreign tourists. Namely European, American, Austrailian, Israeli, etc. I saw some horrible behavior on the part of virtually all nationalities in from hotels to restaurants and bus/train service.
That said, there were some pretty nasty folks native to Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam, too. It's hot, hotter than most tourists are used to, so they often take out their anger on the working folks, some of whom in turn take it out on the tourists--nothing new there.
I have to admit losing my cool a few times in Vietnam, though. The touts are downright aggressive at times and I had to raise my voice a few times to convince someone that no, I don't want a T-shirt/taxi ride/etc. At first I thought I was overreacting, but after talking with other backpackers they also believed Vietnam to be a unique place for that kind of "salesmanship".
Bottom line: there are pricks in every country.
posted by zardoz at 12:11 AM on August 20, 2005
That said, there were some pretty nasty folks native to Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam, too. It's hot, hotter than most tourists are used to, so they often take out their anger on the working folks, some of whom in turn take it out on the tourists--nothing new there.
I have to admit losing my cool a few times in Vietnam, though. The touts are downright aggressive at times and I had to raise my voice a few times to convince someone that no, I don't want a T-shirt/taxi ride/etc. At first I thought I was overreacting, but after talking with other backpackers they also believed Vietnam to be a unique place for that kind of "salesmanship".
Bottom line: there are pricks in every country.
posted by zardoz at 12:11 AM on August 20, 2005
I'd have to say the backpackers come in first place with that.
I didn't suggest this, as not strictly the question, but I would definitely agree.
posted by dreamsign at 1:34 AM on August 20, 2005
I didn't suggest this, as not strictly the question, but I would definitely agree.
posted by dreamsign at 1:34 AM on August 20, 2005
borkingchikapa posted "I hate to make sweeping generalizations, but why is Southeast Asia so terribly obnoxious?"
Obviously you don't hate it enough not to be so obnoxiously prejudiced and narrowminded in your posting style and cultural attitudes.
I'm quite amazed at most of the responses here.
The short answer is because you are ignorant.
SEAsia wasn't created as some Disney amusement park for the benefit of the roving westerner jetset tourist hordes to cherry pick cultural exoticisms betwixt canapes and cherry vodkas in some utopian plush villa segregated from the buzzing masses.
The vast and complex history of the many peoples of the area can't be reduced to a soundbite of prefab glory to appease our western sensibilities.
In my limited (2 years) experience of Vietnam, it is impossible to gain a proper sense of the society by either comparing it to our own western lives nor by travelling constantly in search of some elusive dreamscape we've noticed in the latest guidebook.
To begin to comprehend the intricacies of these social phenomena you so easily dismiss you have to sit down and watch and listen and learn. But you have to be openminded. They got bicycles but they didn't get roadrules. People rang their bells to warn those around of their presence. They got motorcycles that had horns which they began using in a similar fashion - why? Because that is what they knew. They're a developing nation and law/legal structure/social policies are, to our way of thinking, deficient or behind or non-existent. But that doesn't make the people who have grown up in this atmosphere particularly obnoxious. That just means they've fitted in with the customary social mores or their society.
They don't know about queues because they've never come across them. It is first in first served with all the attendant pushing and shoving that ensues. They have only had western tourists since 1979 and as in their commercial history, the person who makes the most noise and manages to get the most attention, gets the most money. That's pretty simple. So it should be easy to understand why people strive so hard to get you to buy something. This is mostly because they don't know any differently. Do what I did - formulate a whole bunch of responses so you make it a fun interaction, so you get to see smiles and so you yourself have a laugh rather than getting annoyed by it. It was always cringeworthy watching a tourist meltdown over a buck or 2 taxi fare. And it's really strange - what right do we as western guests in their beautiful country have to expect OUR norms? None is the answer and the more tourists that get through their heads, the less heartache and frustration and hate will follow.
They have traditionally lived most of their lives in public. The land tax was originally calculated according to the width of the property so they have very narrow housing and often large families so they are used to being around people all the time. They may engage in what you consider antisocial or disturbing behaviour but that's because they grew up being allowed to rev their engines loudly, honk their horns at every opportunity, play loud music to their hearts' content and otherwise live free lives unfettered by the social restrictions that we in the west know so well.
Although I'm obviously coming across as a bit hostile and this comment may even get deleted, and although I see from the total of your question that you are seriously curious, which is to be commended, you should also take another look at your opening remark which is both offensive and an incitement to prejudice, so perhaps don't be surprised if this question itself is deleted.
Can you guess that I love this mystical, swarming, mindblowing, outrageous, noisy, bustling bazaar of a place? That's why I get upset when people want to project their own world views on a country or area with more history than many other western nations. If rearraning one's mindset is so difficult then perhaps budding tourists should think of going somewhere other than SEAsia for their own peace of mind. And IMHO you actually tend to find a better class of tourist, especially backpacker, when you travel in Asia.
But I really do hope that you can relax into it a bit more. I'm sure when you get home, you'll realize that there were a lot more positive memories than those you've been expressing here. And I also hope the dental work turned out well. Good luck. And would it were my present circumstances were different, I'd swap lives with you in a flash.
posted by peacay at 3:28 AM on August 20, 2005
Obviously you don't hate it enough not to be so obnoxiously prejudiced and narrowminded in your posting style and cultural attitudes.
I'm quite amazed at most of the responses here.
The short answer is because you are ignorant.
SEAsia wasn't created as some Disney amusement park for the benefit of the roving westerner jetset tourist hordes to cherry pick cultural exoticisms betwixt canapes and cherry vodkas in some utopian plush villa segregated from the buzzing masses.
The vast and complex history of the many peoples of the area can't be reduced to a soundbite of prefab glory to appease our western sensibilities.
In my limited (2 years) experience of Vietnam, it is impossible to gain a proper sense of the society by either comparing it to our own western lives nor by travelling constantly in search of some elusive dreamscape we've noticed in the latest guidebook.
To begin to comprehend the intricacies of these social phenomena you so easily dismiss you have to sit down and watch and listen and learn. But you have to be openminded. They got bicycles but they didn't get roadrules. People rang their bells to warn those around of their presence. They got motorcycles that had horns which they began using in a similar fashion - why? Because that is what they knew. They're a developing nation and law/legal structure/social policies are, to our way of thinking, deficient or behind or non-existent. But that doesn't make the people who have grown up in this atmosphere particularly obnoxious. That just means they've fitted in with the customary social mores or their society.
They don't know about queues because they've never come across them. It is first in first served with all the attendant pushing and shoving that ensues. They have only had western tourists since 1979 and as in their commercial history, the person who makes the most noise and manages to get the most attention, gets the most money. That's pretty simple. So it should be easy to understand why people strive so hard to get you to buy something. This is mostly because they don't know any differently. Do what I did - formulate a whole bunch of responses so you make it a fun interaction, so you get to see smiles and so you yourself have a laugh rather than getting annoyed by it. It was always cringeworthy watching a tourist meltdown over a buck or 2 taxi fare. And it's really strange - what right do we as western guests in their beautiful country have to expect OUR norms? None is the answer and the more tourists that get through their heads, the less heartache and frustration and hate will follow.
They have traditionally lived most of their lives in public. The land tax was originally calculated according to the width of the property so they have very narrow housing and often large families so they are used to being around people all the time. They may engage in what you consider antisocial or disturbing behaviour but that's because they grew up being allowed to rev their engines loudly, honk their horns at every opportunity, play loud music to their hearts' content and otherwise live free lives unfettered by the social restrictions that we in the west know so well.
Although I'm obviously coming across as a bit hostile and this comment may even get deleted, and although I see from the total of your question that you are seriously curious, which is to be commended, you should also take another look at your opening remark which is both offensive and an incitement to prejudice, so perhaps don't be surprised if this question itself is deleted.
Can you guess that I love this mystical, swarming, mindblowing, outrageous, noisy, bustling bazaar of a place? That's why I get upset when people want to project their own world views on a country or area with more history than many other western nations. If rearraning one's mindset is so difficult then perhaps budding tourists should think of going somewhere other than SEAsia for their own peace of mind. And IMHO you actually tend to find a better class of tourist, especially backpacker, when you travel in Asia.
But I really do hope that you can relax into it a bit more. I'm sure when you get home, you'll realize that there were a lot more positive memories than those you've been expressing here. And I also hope the dental work turned out well. Good luck. And would it were my present circumstances were different, I'd swap lives with you in a flash.
posted by peacay at 3:28 AM on August 20, 2005
" (ie: it's never: "I don't know")"
Heh, I worked at a gas station here in the US. I realized I looked like a supreme fool every time I did it, but when I didn't know I said, "Gee, I don't know, sorry."
Bosses got pissed off at me, but in some cases I don't care if it makes me look stupid, it's better than making me look like an asshole who sends people off on the wrong direction just to continue the illusion that gas station people know every road.
I'm sorry people, but just because I know how to check oil and insert a gas pump into your car doesn't mean I memorized every road in the area.
Get onstar or learn how to read a map people.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 4:01 AM on August 20, 2005
Heh, I worked at a gas station here in the US. I realized I looked like a supreme fool every time I did it, but when I didn't know I said, "Gee, I don't know, sorry."
Bosses got pissed off at me, but in some cases I don't care if it makes me look stupid, it's better than making me look like an asshole who sends people off on the wrong direction just to continue the illusion that gas station people know every road.
I'm sorry people, but just because I know how to check oil and insert a gas pump into your car doesn't mean I memorized every road in the area.
Get onstar or learn how to read a map people.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 4:01 AM on August 20, 2005
I hate to make sweeping generalizations, but why is Northeast U.S. so terribly obnoxious? Help me understand this bit of cultural weirdness.
I've lived in New England almost my whole life, and I was in New Mexico before that. One thing I noticed was that, while the Yankee ideas of "acting properly" and being polite in conversations are extremely prevelent, it seems like everyone completely lacks common courtesy when they're not dealing with you face to face. Examples include (mostly from my experience in Massachusetts, but in other states as well) - playing really bad (that's subjective, I realize) pop in boom-cars as loud as one possibly can, honking horns for no reason whatsoever, leaving shopping carts in the middle of store aisles or in the middle of parking spaces, never turning off cell phones and talking on them very loudly in inappropriate situations (a movie theater, for example), etc.
Why is this? It seems to run completely counter to other cultural ideals, yet nobody seems ashamed of it at all. My pet theory is that, if annoyed by something, nobody would ever confront anyone else because of the potential loss of life. But I don't know, I'm just a dumb geezer, so I'd like to hear everyone else's thoughts on the matter.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:14 AM on August 20, 2005 [1 favorite]
I've lived in New England almost my whole life, and I was in New Mexico before that. One thing I noticed was that, while the Yankee ideas of "acting properly" and being polite in conversations are extremely prevelent, it seems like everyone completely lacks common courtesy when they're not dealing with you face to face. Examples include (mostly from my experience in Massachusetts, but in other states as well) - playing really bad (that's subjective, I realize) pop in boom-cars as loud as one possibly can, honking horns for no reason whatsoever, leaving shopping carts in the middle of store aisles or in the middle of parking spaces, never turning off cell phones and talking on them very loudly in inappropriate situations (a movie theater, for example), etc.
Why is this? It seems to run completely counter to other cultural ideals, yet nobody seems ashamed of it at all. My pet theory is that, if annoyed by something, nobody would ever confront anyone else because of the potential loss of life. But I don't know, I'm just a dumb geezer, so I'd like to hear everyone else's thoughts on the matter.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:14 AM on August 20, 2005 [1 favorite]
I live in Malaysia, which is in South East Asia, and - huh? That's not completely familiar to me. We do have our foibles, but are you sure you're not just hyper-focusing on the bad stuff and completely ignoring the good things?
peacay: THANK YOU.
posted by divabat at 6:01 AM on August 20, 2005
peacay: THANK YOU.
posted by divabat at 6:01 AM on August 20, 2005
Great response, peacay. My wife and I sponsored 17 Vietnamese refugees when Saigon fell. Found them housing, jobs, clothes, schooling etc. We maintained a very close relationship with them for a decade as they settled into their new country. Even after a decade, we continued to bump into cultural "clashes" of the most arcane kind. It worked both ways, we would inadvertently offend them or they us. We learned early that it was very difficult to work these out to mutual satisfaction, since everybody was "walking on eggs" trying not to offend the other, (they saw themselves as guests and we were the hosts).
We learned that these cultural "quirks" are so deeply ingrained that one is not usually conscious of them until they are transgressed. At that point, one has to move from feeling insulted to some better feeling place, which is often hard to do in the company of others who don't get it.
The remark above about shoving one's way into line while smiling broadly at a competitor is worth remembering, since evidently it is seen by those folks as being a sort of game in which there is stiff competition but no offence is meant or taken. We visitors should play it like the game it is seen to be.
posted by RMALCOLM at 8:44 AM on August 20, 2005
We learned that these cultural "quirks" are so deeply ingrained that one is not usually conscious of them until they are transgressed. At that point, one has to move from feeling insulted to some better feeling place, which is often hard to do in the company of others who don't get it.
The remark above about shoving one's way into line while smiling broadly at a competitor is worth remembering, since evidently it is seen by those folks as being a sort of game in which there is stiff competition but no offence is meant or taken. We visitors should play it like the game it is seen to be.
posted by RMALCOLM at 8:44 AM on August 20, 2005
I hate to make sweeping generalizations, but why is Northeast U.S. so terribly obnoxious? Help me understand this bit of cultural weirdness....My pet theory is that, if annoyed by something, nobody would ever confront anyone else because of the potential loss of life.
Close enough .
posted by IndigoJones at 11:44 AM on August 20, 2005
Close enough .
posted by IndigoJones at 11:44 AM on August 20, 2005
Pecay--contrary to rmalcolmy I think your response left something to be desired--very thoughtful substance but a little heavy on hostility and patronization. Both you and rmalcolm are skating on the thin edge of a kind of cultural relativism that can easily obscure basic issues of human dignity and civility--I have no doubt that there are very good and valid reasons why things happens but that does not fundamentally alter the consequences of those actions---and those actions can be rude, thoughtless and irritating. A basic element in the social contract that holds most communities together is the notion that my rights stop when they deprive you of yours (what ever those rights might be--and they may be defined very differently in different cultures)--regardless-- intrusive noise, pushing, shoving etc. are almost always rude even if conspicuous and onmipresent--what you describe as normative can sometimes be partially explained by an abuse of power or by interpersonal indifference bred by oppression and exploitation--that does not make it any less rude. Bottom line--I don't care what culture it is--if someone is making excessive and persistent noise at 3:00AM in the morning it is rude. This applies to New Yorkers, pub crawlers in Edinburgh and wedding parties in India.
posted by rmhsinc at 11:46 AM on August 20, 2005
posted by rmhsinc at 11:46 AM on August 20, 2005
Bottom line - I don't care what culture it is
American tourist ethics at their finest.
posted by cleardawn at 12:39 PM on August 20, 2005
American tourist ethics at their finest.
posted by cleardawn at 12:39 PM on August 20, 2005
terribly presumptious as I spend a great deal of time living and working in Europe--pub crawlers are pub crawlers where ever you are and music at odd times and at excessive volume is genuinely annoying where ever you are--and cutting lines and shoving is not polite--and if you think I am wrong ask the person being shoved, verbally assaulted, or pushed back in a queue no matter what culture--but perhaps I am just insensitive
posted by rmhsinc at 1:04 PM on August 20, 2005
posted by rmhsinc at 1:04 PM on August 20, 2005
I spent a couple of months in northern Thailand in 2003 and 2004, and I failed to come across any obnoxious Thais. Some obnoxious western backpackers, but the locals were all, to a fault, incredibly nice to me.
I did notice the smog-spewing cars, but that's not a politeness thing, that's a "what can you afford" thing. And contrary to what you're saying, I found the honking of horns "for no apparent reason" to make perfect sense. Here in Chicago, horns are used only to express rage, while in traffic in Chiang Mai, they seemed to be used to alert other drivers of your intentions--honk if you're going to pass, honk if you're going to merge, etc. It was really nice, especially when I ventured into traffic on a motorcycle.
posted by goatdog at 1:33 PM on August 20, 2005
I did notice the smog-spewing cars, but that's not a politeness thing, that's a "what can you afford" thing. And contrary to what you're saying, I found the honking of horns "for no apparent reason" to make perfect sense. Here in Chicago, horns are used only to express rage, while in traffic in Chiang Mai, they seemed to be used to alert other drivers of your intentions--honk if you're going to pass, honk if you're going to merge, etc. It was really nice, especially when I ventured into traffic on a motorcycle.
posted by goatdog at 1:33 PM on August 20, 2005
peacay: all due respect to your need to bash ignorant Americans, but with at least one Asian culture it's my experience that the long and rich history of the people actually facilitates this. Among the Chinese, though Confucianism is now officially out of favor, there are still relics of Confucian ethics where you are expected always to know how you relate to all of the people you're interacting with, and to defer without question to anyone who is your "superior". Many Chinese exemplify this through simple politeness, which is the point of the system, but I have also seen plenty (Chinese folks being human like the rest of us) who will abuse the situation whenever they're on the "superior" end and be total shitcocks to people who are then expected just to take it.
posted by ubernostrum at 1:48 PM on August 20, 2005
posted by ubernostrum at 1:48 PM on August 20, 2005
ubernostrum...if it was "all due respect" you will have read what I wrote and noticed that I never mentioned Americans*. I didn't even look at the poster's profile. Now if I was a little heavy handed as has been suggested, then I apologize for reacting angrily to what I read on the front page of the green as blatant racist flamebait. But I did in actual fact, attempt to answer the question. Admittedly my wording and typos leave a little to be desired but the point that I was trying to get across was that we as westerners (and our country of origin hardly matters in this sort of analysis in so far as we are more alike than in our backgrounds that we are to SE Asian cultures) have our own paradigms for what we regard as civilized society and that our sensitivities are going to be razzed out if we expect everyone in a very foreign location to act in ways that make us feel comfortable. What do you think?
See I didn't read the question as: "Do you agree that they're all bastards" or "I think they're all bastards, what about you". I read the question as "Why are they all bastards". And I really don't feel easy about slandering 80,000,000 people of Vietnam (and what?....maybe 200,000,000 more in SE Asia....let alone accounting for all the "shitcocks" you encountered) because of some narrowminded encounters experienced by someone on their holiday. People have bad experiences I'm sure, it's just that projecting that onto every last person in a 1000 mile radius doesn't quite have a ring of tolerance to it in my humble opinion.
*The Disney reference has nothing specifically to do with America in this context. It was a descriptive trope is all - something we can identify with in the generic sense - I could have just as easily put [insert very well known themepark trade name here] instead, but it was too much writing.
posted by peacay at 2:18 PM on August 20, 2005
See I didn't read the question as: "Do you agree that they're all bastards" or "I think they're all bastards, what about you". I read the question as "Why are they all bastards". And I really don't feel easy about slandering 80,000,000 people of Vietnam (and what?....maybe 200,000,000 more in SE Asia....let alone accounting for all the "shitcocks" you encountered) because of some narrowminded encounters experienced by someone on their holiday. People have bad experiences I'm sure, it's just that projecting that onto every last person in a 1000 mile radius doesn't quite have a ring of tolerance to it in my humble opinion.
*The Disney reference has nothing specifically to do with America in this context. It was a descriptive trope is all - something we can identify with in the generic sense - I could have just as easily put [insert very well known themepark trade name here] instead, but it was too much writing.
posted by peacay at 2:18 PM on August 20, 2005
What goatdog said.
Incidentally, the Thais also honk for good luck, whenever they pass "auspicious" places, such as the summits of hills, or Buddhist temples.
Contrary to what one might imagine, the monks in the temples are taught to use the noise as an aid during meditation - they can constantly hear the goodwill being sent them by the passing drivers, which reminds them of the basic goodness of all sentient beings. Not without humor.
rmhsinc - it's not that you're "insensitive", it's a more subtle problem than that.
We're all born thinking along the lines of your earlier comments - that is, we focus on the 'rudeness' of others, and on how things in the world are not as we would like them to be. I want, I want, I want. We're born screaming for our wants to be fulfilled. Bottom line. I don't care.
Many people die still thinking that way, particularly, perhaps, in consumer-capitalist cultures.
But what happens if I try to switch this thinking around, so I start to focus instead on my own rudeness?
Who am I to say this? How arrogant am I? How rude? Do I really need more food, more sleep, more space, more quiet, more money?
Instead of wanting the world to conform to our false expectations (and getting upset when it doesn't), we might learn to modify our expectations so that we can be genuinely grateful for the world (and the people) we have been given.
It might seem impossible, but the more you try, the less impossible it becomes. And it's certainly no more impossible than expecting other people and the world to behave constantly according to your whim.
One more thing: If you ever go to India, and there's a wedding party in the village, please have a friend film you from a safe distance when you complain about the noise. I'd love to see their faces.
posted by cleardawn at 3:04 PM on August 20, 2005
Incidentally, the Thais also honk for good luck, whenever they pass "auspicious" places, such as the summits of hills, or Buddhist temples.
Contrary to what one might imagine, the monks in the temples are taught to use the noise as an aid during meditation - they can constantly hear the goodwill being sent them by the passing drivers, which reminds them of the basic goodness of all sentient beings. Not without humor.
rmhsinc - it's not that you're "insensitive", it's a more subtle problem than that.
We're all born thinking along the lines of your earlier comments - that is, we focus on the 'rudeness' of others, and on how things in the world are not as we would like them to be. I want, I want, I want. We're born screaming for our wants to be fulfilled. Bottom line. I don't care.
Many people die still thinking that way, particularly, perhaps, in consumer-capitalist cultures.
But what happens if I try to switch this thinking around, so I start to focus instead on my own rudeness?
Who am I to say this? How arrogant am I? How rude? Do I really need more food, more sleep, more space, more quiet, more money?
Instead of wanting the world to conform to our false expectations (and getting upset when it doesn't), we might learn to modify our expectations so that we can be genuinely grateful for the world (and the people) we have been given.
It might seem impossible, but the more you try, the less impossible it becomes. And it's certainly no more impossible than expecting other people and the world to behave constantly according to your whim.
One more thing: If you ever go to India, and there's a wedding party in the village, please have a friend film you from a safe distance when you complain about the noise. I'd love to see their faces.
posted by cleardawn at 3:04 PM on August 20, 2005
That's like saying: If someone lets their dog bark all night and it keeps you up, you should admire the freedom of animals to do whatever they want. An admirable idea but not very realistic.
posted by smackfu at 6:48 PM on August 20, 2005
posted by smackfu at 6:48 PM on August 20, 2005
Just a question, but did you stray off the tourist trail at all?
I don't know how many people I've met who went through India and said: "What the hell was that? Everyone I met was out to scam me. What a country full of assholes/thieves/immoral *&%^$s." So I say oh, that's too bad. Where did you go? "Oh, you know, Agra, Varanasi, New Delhi. That's about it."
Where tourists go, problems follow, and it can get to be quite the feedback loop.
I like your answer, fionab.
posted by dreamsign at 8:31 PM on August 20, 2005
I don't know how many people I've met who went through India and said: "What the hell was that? Everyone I met was out to scam me. What a country full of assholes/thieves/immoral *&%^$s." So I say oh, that's too bad. Where did you go? "Oh, you know, Agra, Varanasi, New Delhi. That's about it."
Where tourists go, problems follow, and it can get to be quite the feedback loop.
I like your answer, fionab.
posted by dreamsign at 8:31 PM on August 20, 2005
Well the headline might not have been chosen with the greatest of sensitivity, but borkingchikapa's main question remains unanswered: what explains the apparent disconnect between the public norms and the private norms?
So far, there have been two answers given: population density and old politeness rules with new technology. But since population density isn't unique to SE Asia and (I'm guessing here) the private politeness norm is so strong, that still must be only half of the answer. At no point did the poster ever accuse any culture of being uncivilized or bastards.
I've never been to any of these places, so I don't know the answer. (I suspect it's that large cities are places where people don't really care about the norms as much and thus have different norms, but whatever.) But to say that the answer is for some reason that borkingchikapa is ignorant is pretty dumb. "It's obnoxious to you because you are ignorant." entails that either one could never correctly make a judgment of obnoxiousness about another culture or it simply isn't obnoxious (and certainly some SE Asians probably agree with the poster at 6:30am). I highly suspect the reason NE Usians are that way is that the private politeness norm just isn't that strong.
Unless of course there really is no disconnect between the public and private norms and it would be ignorant to assert there was. But that would certainly be surprising.
posted by ontic at 9:45 PM on August 20, 2005
So far, there have been two answers given: population density and old politeness rules with new technology. But since population density isn't unique to SE Asia and (I'm guessing here) the private politeness norm is so strong, that still must be only half of the answer. At no point did the poster ever accuse any culture of being uncivilized or bastards.
I've never been to any of these places, so I don't know the answer. (I suspect it's that large cities are places where people don't really care about the norms as much and thus have different norms, but whatever.) But to say that the answer is for some reason that borkingchikapa is ignorant is pretty dumb. "It's obnoxious to you because you are ignorant." entails that either one could never correctly make a judgment of obnoxiousness about another culture or it simply isn't obnoxious (and certainly some SE Asians probably agree with the poster at 6:30am). I highly suspect the reason NE Usians are that way is that the private politeness norm just isn't that strong.
Unless of course there really is no disconnect between the public and private norms and it would be ignorant to assert there was. But that would certainly be surprising.
posted by ontic at 9:45 PM on August 20, 2005
I lived in Bangkok for awhile and found that obnoxious behavior was more prevalent in the city then anywhere else. I also find this to be true in all large cities I have been to, that citylife breeds less "politeness."
It is also a bit facile to think one has a grasp on another culture's innate identity and then extrapolate to find inconsistencies. Either you end up imposing your own culture's values when there is a real disjunct or your venerate everything about a foreign culture, even truly negative things.
For example, a taxi driver got lost taking me home once, but still charged me for all the time he spent being lost, even though I had given him great directions. Should I take this as a cultural difference and pay up or should I stand my ground and not pay the full price because it was a business transaction? (After some polite arguing, I payed him the full amount).
posted by Falconetti at 10:35 PM on August 20, 2005
It is also a bit facile to think one has a grasp on another culture's innate identity and then extrapolate to find inconsistencies. Either you end up imposing your own culture's values when there is a real disjunct or your venerate everything about a foreign culture, even truly negative things.
For example, a taxi driver got lost taking me home once, but still charged me for all the time he spent being lost, even though I had given him great directions. Should I take this as a cultural difference and pay up or should I stand my ground and not pay the full price because it was a business transaction? (After some polite arguing, I payed him the full amount).
posted by Falconetti at 10:35 PM on August 20, 2005
Borkingchikapa never claimed that South East Asia has more hypocritical practices than any other part of the world. He did ask for some insight into the cognitive dissonance that came from noticing two seemingly conflicting cultural practices.
If borkingchipa had instead been from somewhere in South East Asia and asked a similarly worded question about the United States, I seriously doubt that he would be called racist. We'd probably laugh, maybe agree with him a little, and try to offer our own theories of how those cultural oddities developed.
posted by 4easypayments at 3:25 AM on August 21, 2005
If borkingchipa had instead been from somewhere in South East Asia and asked a similarly worded question about the United States, I seriously doubt that he would be called racist. We'd probably laugh, maybe agree with him a little, and try to offer our own theories of how those cultural oddities developed.
posted by 4easypayments at 3:25 AM on August 21, 2005
I really shouldn't post when I'm angry. I'm fairly sure borkingchikapa isn't a racist as I'd find it hard to believe a racist would 1.last that long in Asia or 2.try to find out the reasons for the differences they notice. I'd also be surprised if borkingchikapa didn't regret the opening wording which is inflammatory at best. I also think that some of the responses here have been good and I must have been blinded by my anger on the first readthrough. And I meant 'ignorant' in the literal and not perjorative sense and I would definitely extend that description to myself as well.
Another crack..
"the Asian ideas of 'saving face' and being polite in conversations are extremely prevelent, it seems like everyone completely lacks common courtesy when they're not dealing with you face to face."
It seems to me that 'saving face' is about power, prestige, comportment and maintaining dignity. I sense that this traditional Asian social etiquette is what you are describing as 'common courtesy'. The disconnect here is that 'saving face' is actually a personal motivation and not strictly an outwardly directed phenomenon. Whereas what we regard as 'common courtesy' are really behavioural parameters inside which we operate so as not to rock the social boat. So I'm postulating that this interpersonal behaviour we observe, although obviously sharing characteristics with our western norms, is actually a different species on closer inspection.
So perhaps the question becomes why does 'saving face' not include those activities (noise, phones, dilapidated bikes) whose (ab-)use and existence we also regard as 'common courtesy'.
With this approach I'd return to my former submission in so far as ...
*people have traditionally lived their lives mostly on the street and so the idea of privacy, which we all hold to be generally sacrosanct, is not something with which the majority of Asian people are familiar with. Now I didn't actually posit overcrowding as a reason for this per se - more along the lines of their having extended families and little opportunity for having as much personal space as we take for granted. It may be a mute point - I don't see it so much as overcrowding as having shared space - but someone else might regard that differently. The result is the same. Little in the way of private time.
*The walking --> bicycles with bells-->motorcycles with horns : little or none of which was accompanied by legal or social restraints. (And I agree with someone above who said that they are good things, when you get to recognize how they are used, in the absence of the usual form of road rules we again take for granted)
*Persisting with dilapidated/noisy/polluting motorcycles stems both from poverty (even a subjective perception of it) and there being no regulatory and legal restrictions [this is changing, slowly] being enacted/enumerated commensurately with the increasing availability of the technology - the law or social regulation doesn't keep up (perhaps a bit like netiquette?).
With regards the loud music I suggest that 95% of people sleep the same hours so they are awake at like 6am - it's particularly important in a perennially hot climate to make use of the coolest hours of the day.
Another important consideration is that the lack of privacy - going back 2000 years I suppose - has given rise to the 'street life' that makes up much of a person's life in Asia and which we have managed to stifle and barricade ourselves against in the last few hundred years. It has meant that their culture has traditionally included everyone doing everything outdoors which, in the course of varied human endeavour, inevitably involves at times making a racket. If pounding tin and sawing wood and chiselling headstones on the sidewalk and jangling a bell to announce fresh soup is available from a passing bicycle trader and calling out orders across a street to the tea shop and all the other varied happenstances of a regular life have been allowed by historical precedent, then it's not too big a jump to see how such new technologies as bike horns and cd players and mobile phone use become incorporated in the same laissez faire manner.
To return to the topic at hand - what you regard as 'face saving' at a personal level doesn't involve these other specifics of 'common courtesy' because they never did in the past and the people have no precedent of social cooperation in the same sense that we have.
Thus I think it's a mischaracterization to broadly view SE Asia as strictly obnoxious. Obviously there are, as someone above said, fuckwits everywhere, but the bulk of gripes that we have as visitors relate to historical freedom of public activity and not specifically to encroachment into our personal space. (yes, it's a point of view thing, but it's important to stave off insanity) And don't get me wrong, I used to get annoyed by 'stuff' but learned with time to not always take it personally because most of the time people do what people have always done - and some will regard that as culturally obnoxious no doubt and inexcusable in this day and age, but most likely they are homebody keyboard bigots with narrow attitudes and little in the way of direct experience, observation and most assuredly, depth of thought.
And I hope I've saved some face here. I don't offer this as definitive and it sure isn't comprehensive and although it may in fact be an urging for a cultural relativistic platform, I hope I've slightly elucidated on why that's necessary, even if only to save your mental wellbeing. Because people who smarm about Asia being offended by every jarring episode that goes against all that they hold golden in their blinkered world view, are going to have a miserable time of it.
posted by peacay at 5:38 AM on August 21, 2005
Another crack..
"the Asian ideas of 'saving face' and being polite in conversations are extremely prevelent, it seems like everyone completely lacks common courtesy when they're not dealing with you face to face."
It seems to me that 'saving face' is about power, prestige, comportment and maintaining dignity. I sense that this traditional Asian social etiquette is what you are describing as 'common courtesy'. The disconnect here is that 'saving face' is actually a personal motivation and not strictly an outwardly directed phenomenon. Whereas what we regard as 'common courtesy' are really behavioural parameters inside which we operate so as not to rock the social boat. So I'm postulating that this interpersonal behaviour we observe, although obviously sharing characteristics with our western norms, is actually a different species on closer inspection.
So perhaps the question becomes why does 'saving face' not include those activities (noise, phones, dilapidated bikes) whose (ab-)use and existence we also regard as 'common courtesy'.
With this approach I'd return to my former submission in so far as ...
*people have traditionally lived their lives mostly on the street and so the idea of privacy, which we all hold to be generally sacrosanct, is not something with which the majority of Asian people are familiar with. Now I didn't actually posit overcrowding as a reason for this per se - more along the lines of their having extended families and little opportunity for having as much personal space as we take for granted. It may be a mute point - I don't see it so much as overcrowding as having shared space - but someone else might regard that differently. The result is the same. Little in the way of private time.
*The walking --> bicycles with bells-->motorcycles with horns : little or none of which was accompanied by legal or social restraints. (And I agree with someone above who said that they are good things, when you get to recognize how they are used, in the absence of the usual form of road rules we again take for granted)
*Persisting with dilapidated/noisy/polluting motorcycles stems both from poverty (even a subjective perception of it) and there being no regulatory and legal restrictions [this is changing, slowly] being enacted/enumerated commensurately with the increasing availability of the technology - the law or social regulation doesn't keep up (perhaps a bit like netiquette?).
With regards the loud music I suggest that 95% of people sleep the same hours so they are awake at like 6am - it's particularly important in a perennially hot climate to make use of the coolest hours of the day.
Another important consideration is that the lack of privacy - going back 2000 years I suppose - has given rise to the 'street life' that makes up much of a person's life in Asia and which we have managed to stifle and barricade ourselves against in the last few hundred years. It has meant that their culture has traditionally included everyone doing everything outdoors which, in the course of varied human endeavour, inevitably involves at times making a racket. If pounding tin and sawing wood and chiselling headstones on the sidewalk and jangling a bell to announce fresh soup is available from a passing bicycle trader and calling out orders across a street to the tea shop and all the other varied happenstances of a regular life have been allowed by historical precedent, then it's not too big a jump to see how such new technologies as bike horns and cd players and mobile phone use become incorporated in the same laissez faire manner.
To return to the topic at hand - what you regard as 'face saving' at a personal level doesn't involve these other specifics of 'common courtesy' because they never did in the past and the people have no precedent of social cooperation in the same sense that we have.
Thus I think it's a mischaracterization to broadly view SE Asia as strictly obnoxious. Obviously there are, as someone above said, fuckwits everywhere, but the bulk of gripes that we have as visitors relate to historical freedom of public activity and not specifically to encroachment into our personal space. (yes, it's a point of view thing, but it's important to stave off insanity) And don't get me wrong, I used to get annoyed by 'stuff' but learned with time to not always take it personally because most of the time people do what people have always done - and some will regard that as culturally obnoxious no doubt and inexcusable in this day and age, but most likely they are homebody keyboard bigots with narrow attitudes and little in the way of direct experience, observation and most assuredly, depth of thought.
And I hope I've saved some face here. I don't offer this as definitive and it sure isn't comprehensive and although it may in fact be an urging for a cultural relativistic platform, I hope I've slightly elucidated on why that's necessary, even if only to save your mental wellbeing. Because people who smarm about Asia being offended by every jarring episode that goes against all that they hold golden in their blinkered world view, are going to have a miserable time of it.
posted by peacay at 5:38 AM on August 21, 2005
I was talking last week to an American who lived in Rome for a few years, and she was saying that she saw so many other Americans come to Rome with the intention of living, and leave soon afterwards. The problem was that they wanted the Rome of the movies, they wanted Disney-Rome and were disappointed when they didn't get it.
Different places have different culture, that's one of the reasons to travel. This is probably particularly difficult for the average American because their culture makes long-term foreigners into X-Americans. So African-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Greek-Americans, meaning that there is little visibility of other culture.
posted by quiet at 5:47 AM on August 21, 2005
Different places have different culture, that's one of the reasons to travel. This is probably particularly difficult for the average American because their culture makes long-term foreigners into X-Americans. So African-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Greek-Americans, meaning that there is little visibility of other culture.
posted by quiet at 5:47 AM on August 21, 2005
I've been told (but not researched so I may be wrong) that the 24 hour loud music wedding was just how it was done. It's not noise, it's a celebration of a very important day. How arrogant is it for anyone to ask them to turn down the music of a wedding, simply because in your culture weddings are something that are quiet and can happen in the space of time between lunch and dinner? I cant imagine my response to someone who showed up at a wedding and asked the officiant if the bride could please not wear white, as it was offending their sensibilities.
In anycase, I'd say that particular example isn't someone being obnoxious and treading on your personal space. It's a cultural thing.
posted by nile_red at 10:28 AM on August 21, 2005
In anycase, I'd say that particular example isn't someone being obnoxious and treading on your personal space. It's a cultural thing.
posted by nile_red at 10:28 AM on August 21, 2005
smackfu, if a dog barking is annoying you, then calling the dog 'rude' is unlikely to help the situation. Similarly, becoming angry, hating dogs,and posting questions on websites asking why dogs are so annoying, are all strategies which are unlikely to succeed.
In any case, we're not talking about someone being annoyed by a dog. We're talking about someone being annoyed by several million people.
It's a rather different question; and self-examination, while not an immediate solution, is, I believe, likely to be the best.
posted by cleardawn at 11:26 AM on August 21, 2005
In any case, we're not talking about someone being annoyed by a dog. We're talking about someone being annoyed by several million people.
It's a rather different question; and self-examination, while not an immediate solution, is, I believe, likely to be the best.
posted by cleardawn at 11:26 AM on August 21, 2005
Does no one tell travelers to expect culture shock any more? Jesus. Borkingchikapa's in phase two and you guys come down on him like a ton of bricks.
It'll get better with time as you adapt to the new environment.
posted by ikkyu2 at 8:37 PM on August 21, 2005
It'll get better with time as you adapt to the new environment.
posted by ikkyu2 at 8:37 PM on August 21, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
Added to which, Vietnam has that strange love-hate relationship with foreigners -- along with Thailand, et al, but especially so given its history with the west. (and Laos is in that boat, too) Thailand is so flooded with tourists that it's sometimes hard to get away from nationals who haven't been jaded by the industry.
I think you're on the right track with saving face, though. We suffered through many days and nights (24 hours a day) of screaming-loud Hindi music for a wedding festival that absolutely drove the locals insane one week in Uttar Pradesh. Our hosts hated it too, and the man of the house was a headmaster, very influential, but he wouldn't dream of asking them to turn it down. Seriously, windows closed (in the sweltering heat) and our throats were raw from shouting at each other.
posted by dreamsign at 10:17 PM on August 19, 2005