I feel manipulated by my partner. Am I?
October 10, 2012 9:30 PM Subscribe
I feel manipulated by my partner. Am I? Or am I a total nut hatch? I feel like a total nut hatch sometimes. I can't quite put a finger on what's wrong with what he does in the moment, but I feel annoyed later on. To illustrate my case in favor of control and manipulation, I present Exhibits A through G.
Exhibits:
A. When I ask to talk to him about something in particular, he won't arrange to speak to me at the soonest reasonable time. Instead, he says not now, but Later. When later, I ask. Some completely arbitrary date/time in the future, he says. We're not talking about big conversations here, just confirming a date for a plane ticket, or deciding whether or not to ask company over on the weekend. Something for which I need a timely answer. My theory is that his point is simply to control through restriction of information and making me wait.
B. I bought a plane ticket without re-confirming the date with him. It was cheap and the trip was no big deal and it was just me flying. My mother asked him about it and he was caught off-guard. He said to me, "In the future, I'd like to request that you talk to me about these things." As if it were not my habit already to talk to him about most everything. As if it were such an oversight on my part that he Needed to make a banket request for a overall change in my behavior.
C. Conversations in which I have a problem with his behavior are initially met with stonewalling on his part, and usually have ended up with me feeling bad about my (sometimes completely unrelated) behavior and sorry for the effect my behavior has had on him.
D.Sometimes when I get upset with him, he spends the next while teasing me in barbed ways in front of other people, like tearing down my sense of humor, or making comments to me in barbed, "funny" ways about things I feel slightly ashamed about already.
E. When he gets angry during an argument, sometimes he will shout "stop!" and put his hand up for me to stop speaking.
F. During arguments, sometimes I will ask a question and he will deem it "off topic" rather than answering, when it was important to me and I thought it was plenty on topic.
G. He is forever moaning and making the hugest deal about me forgetting parts of conversations or things that he's told me. I feel self-conscious to begin with about my memory, which is not awesome due to factors beyond my control, and this seems like primarily a way to try to make me feel bad. He will vaguely reference some part of a long previous conversation and if I don't "know" exactly what he's talking about, then obviously I didn't listen and don't care what he says. Like "You remember what we talked about yesterday in the 3 hour conversation that we had? Guess which part I need you to talk about right now. Guess! I can't believe you don't remember. Can you see how hard it is for me when you don't remember what we talked about? It's like you're a blank slate. I feel so alone."
Thank you MeFites. I place my mental well-being in your capable hands.
Exhibits:
A. When I ask to talk to him about something in particular, he won't arrange to speak to me at the soonest reasonable time. Instead, he says not now, but Later. When later, I ask. Some completely arbitrary date/time in the future, he says. We're not talking about big conversations here, just confirming a date for a plane ticket, or deciding whether or not to ask company over on the weekend. Something for which I need a timely answer. My theory is that his point is simply to control through restriction of information and making me wait.
B. I bought a plane ticket without re-confirming the date with him. It was cheap and the trip was no big deal and it was just me flying. My mother asked him about it and he was caught off-guard. He said to me, "In the future, I'd like to request that you talk to me about these things." As if it were not my habit already to talk to him about most everything. As if it were such an oversight on my part that he Needed to make a banket request for a overall change in my behavior.
C. Conversations in which I have a problem with his behavior are initially met with stonewalling on his part, and usually have ended up with me feeling bad about my (sometimes completely unrelated) behavior and sorry for the effect my behavior has had on him.
D.Sometimes when I get upset with him, he spends the next while teasing me in barbed ways in front of other people, like tearing down my sense of humor, or making comments to me in barbed, "funny" ways about things I feel slightly ashamed about already.
E. When he gets angry during an argument, sometimes he will shout "stop!" and put his hand up for me to stop speaking.
F. During arguments, sometimes I will ask a question and he will deem it "off topic" rather than answering, when it was important to me and I thought it was plenty on topic.
G. He is forever moaning and making the hugest deal about me forgetting parts of conversations or things that he's told me. I feel self-conscious to begin with about my memory, which is not awesome due to factors beyond my control, and this seems like primarily a way to try to make me feel bad. He will vaguely reference some part of a long previous conversation and if I don't "know" exactly what he's talking about, then obviously I didn't listen and don't care what he says. Like "You remember what we talked about yesterday in the 3 hour conversation that we had? Guess which part I need you to talk about right now. Guess! I can't believe you don't remember. Can you see how hard it is for me when you don't remember what we talked about? It's like you're a blank slate. I feel so alone."
Thank you MeFites. I place my mental well-being in your capable hands.
Based on what you wrote here, *you* are not a "nut hatch."* Your SO, however, is definitely annoying, probably controlling (if we take this info at face value), and possibly a nut hatch.
Examples B,D,E,F, and G are all egregious and DTMFA worthy. A and C are a bit more common and could be just regular old communication problems were it not for all the other examples.
Please, please, please - go and find someone that wants to be kind to you. This person is not it.
*except for the fact that you put up with this crap, which is probably a good topic for personal therapy.
posted by HopperFan at 9:42 PM on October 10, 2012 [13 favorites]
Examples B,D,E,F, and G are all egregious and DTMFA worthy. A and C are a bit more common and could be just regular old communication problems were it not for all the other examples.
Please, please, please - go and find someone that wants to be kind to you. This person is not it.
*except for the fact that you put up with this crap, which is probably a good topic for personal therapy.
posted by HopperFan at 9:42 PM on October 10, 2012 [13 favorites]
How long have you two been together? How established is this relationship? Are these relatively new behaviors?
It just really seems like he doesn't value your input or feelings, and sees you more as an annoyance or something to be led around, but more context would help.
posted by Little Orphan Ennui at 9:43 PM on October 10, 2012 [3 favorites]
It just really seems like he doesn't value your input or feelings, and sees you more as an annoyance or something to be led around, but more context would help.
posted by Little Orphan Ennui at 9:43 PM on October 10, 2012 [3 favorites]
I really agree with SMPA in that this is something that you really need to talk to a relationship counselor about. It's obvious from your list that the issues have been going on for a long time and are multi-faceted. Respectfully, I feel it is unreasonable to think that some kind of group consensus can be objectively reached from a couple hundred words you wrote about this very complex issue. Take charge of your own well being and speak to a counselor and talk this out.
posted by Podkayne of Pasadena at 9:47 PM on October 10, 2012
posted by Podkayne of Pasadena at 9:47 PM on October 10, 2012
Response by poster: Together for three years. He seems to have gotten worse as I'v gotten more independent. I have seen an individual therapist, which has been most helpful to me.
I want him to figure out what's going on and work on those problems and he has agreed to see a counselor as well. In the mean time, I feel like I just don't want to talk to him a great deal, because I just feel kind of screwed around.
posted by KoiPond at 9:48 PM on October 10, 2012
I want him to figure out what's going on and work on those problems and he has agreed to see a counselor as well. In the mean time, I feel like I just don't want to talk to him a great deal, because I just feel kind of screwed around.
posted by KoiPond at 9:48 PM on October 10, 2012
"Sometimes he will shout "stop!" and put his hand up for me to stop speaking."
This is what people do when training dogs! You are obviously not one.
posted by sawdustbear at 9:55 PM on October 10, 2012 [18 favorites]
This is what people do when training dogs! You are obviously not one.
posted by sawdustbear at 9:55 PM on October 10, 2012 [18 favorites]
Response by poster: Group consensus is a little helpful because even if I have an idea that something is afoot, it has really only been in the last couple of days that the thought has begun to gel that he is a rather controlling individual.
I am being responsible and seeking conventional help for my and our issues. I have, however, always been so impressed with the generous insights I have received from the denizens of Metafilter, and so I ask just for people's experiences, insights, and opinions.
posted by KoiPond at 9:57 PM on October 10, 2012
I am being responsible and seeking conventional help for my and our issues. I have, however, always been so impressed with the generous insights I have received from the denizens of Metafilter, and so I ask just for people's experiences, insights, and opinions.
posted by KoiPond at 9:57 PM on October 10, 2012
Some of this sounds like stuff that if you really look at it from his perspective and not just *precisely* with the motivations you attribute to him, it's not necessarily abnormal. Maybe he just doesn't feel like talking about X when you feel like talking about X. If your parents are the sort of people who'll ask him about that kind of stuff, it's not unreasonable to want to know you're going somewhere, and when, etc. It might not be *great* if he gets defensive in conversations where you're unhappy about something that he's done, but it's not strange. Etc. Basically, there are a lot of things that are annoying but not necessarily abusive/abnormal, and these kind of sound mostly on that spectrum. It sounds like in terms of communication, he needs things to be more straightforward, and he prizes continuity; these aren't your same priorities.
The mean joking thing is... well, it's a bad habit that I have personally because everyone in my family does it. The thing is that it's always meant in a loving way, but if you're already feeling vulnerable, it never *feels* loving. Sometimes it's hard to grow out of the pulling pigtails kind of thing. It's kind of dysfunctional, but it's also common.
But it doesn't matter, ultimately, if these things are normal for other people; it matters that they're hurtful to you. That means you guys need to talk about them. It also means that it might be that this isn't really meant to be, that you're not happy with the differences in communication styles and he's not feeling appreciated and, well, sometimes that happens.
posted by gracedissolved at 9:58 PM on October 10, 2012 [8 favorites]
The mean joking thing is... well, it's a bad habit that I have personally because everyone in my family does it. The thing is that it's always meant in a loving way, but if you're already feeling vulnerable, it never *feels* loving. Sometimes it's hard to grow out of the pulling pigtails kind of thing. It's kind of dysfunctional, but it's also common.
But it doesn't matter, ultimately, if these things are normal for other people; it matters that they're hurtful to you. That means you guys need to talk about them. It also means that it might be that this isn't really meant to be, that you're not happy with the differences in communication styles and he's not feeling appreciated and, well, sometimes that happens.
posted by gracedissolved at 9:58 PM on October 10, 2012 [8 favorites]
Conversations in which I have a problem with his behavior are initially met with stonewalling on his part
Stonewalling
and usually have ended up with me feeling bad about my (sometimes completely unrelated) behavior and sorry for the effect my behavior has had on him.
Deflection
He is forever moaning and making the hugest deal about me forgetting parts of conversations or things that he's told me.
Gaslighting?
he spends the next while teasing me in barbed ways in front of other people
Belittling
A, B, E, and F sound straight-up controlling to me. I would not want to be in a relationship where one partner dictates to the other partner how and when conversations will take place.
Professional help is a good idea, but couples counseling might not be the best choice if you suspect manipulation or abuse.
posted by Orinda at 10:01 PM on October 10, 2012 [28 favorites]
Stonewalling
and usually have ended up with me feeling bad about my (sometimes completely unrelated) behavior and sorry for the effect my behavior has had on him.
Deflection
He is forever moaning and making the hugest deal about me forgetting parts of conversations or things that he's told me.
Gaslighting?
he spends the next while teasing me in barbed ways in front of other people
Belittling
A, B, E, and F sound straight-up controlling to me. I would not want to be in a relationship where one partner dictates to the other partner how and when conversations will take place.
Professional help is a good idea, but couples counseling might not be the best choice if you suspect manipulation or abuse.
posted by Orinda at 10:01 PM on October 10, 2012 [28 favorites]
A didn't strike me as that bad. My husband is ALWAYS approaching me going, Hey let's talk about our travel plans for Thanksgiving! when I'm in the middle of making dinner and thinking about a work thing and not even remotely on the travel plan planet. He's had it on his mind all day so he just assumes I'm delighted to talk about it now. So he says, "Okay, when?" because he knows if he doesn't nail me down to a when I will not remember to discuss it with him. I think about it and say, "Thursday after preschool dropoff?" because I know I will have a chance to look at the calendar before then and I'll have some quiet then when we can go over it. It's a little random, but it's really me looking at the internal rhythms of my work and my week and my stress and knowing when I can fit this thing in, that I would otherwise play by ear at the last second but I know my husband wants to settle and plan in advance. So I do my place to nail it to a spot on my calendar where I will get it done and be cheerful about it and not forget or blow it off.
(Things like "having people over" would be more "we'll talk during dinner, okay?" or "after the boys are in bed" or "When I'm between meetings this afternoon." A little quicker, because it's timely and requires less advance research, you know?)
B-F sound immature or dickish, none of them irredeemable if he wants to work on it.
With G, what happens if you say, pointedly, "No, I don't remember. You know I have a difficult time remembering this sort of thing. Is your goal to make me feel bad about forgetting, or to have a conversation? A conversation? Good, then remind me what, specifically, we were discussing." Hopefully once he gives you a bit, you can jump back in.
It sounds like he's got some internal narrative going on where he's reasonable and rational and you're flighty and unreliable. That's a sort-of ugly narrative to be single-handedly applying to your relationship. A lot of this seems like just communication difficulties that a couple of good will can learn to work through. But if he carries with him the idea that he is the stolid citizen doing things properly and managing the relationship while you flitter around distracted by shiney things making plane reservations and having emotions all over his couch, well, problems B-F will recur in other forms and G will be sleeping in your spare bedroom.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:04 PM on October 10, 2012 [33 favorites]
(Things like "having people over" would be more "we'll talk during dinner, okay?" or "after the boys are in bed" or "When I'm between meetings this afternoon." A little quicker, because it's timely and requires less advance research, you know?)
B-F sound immature or dickish, none of them irredeemable if he wants to work on it.
With G, what happens if you say, pointedly, "No, I don't remember. You know I have a difficult time remembering this sort of thing. Is your goal to make me feel bad about forgetting, or to have a conversation? A conversation? Good, then remind me what, specifically, we were discussing." Hopefully once he gives you a bit, you can jump back in.
It sounds like he's got some internal narrative going on where he's reasonable and rational and you're flighty and unreliable. That's a sort-of ugly narrative to be single-handedly applying to your relationship. A lot of this seems like just communication difficulties that a couple of good will can learn to work through. But if he carries with him the idea that he is the stolid citizen doing things properly and managing the relationship while you flitter around distracted by shiney things making plane reservations and having emotions all over his couch, well, problems B-F will recur in other forms and G will be sleeping in your spare bedroom.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:04 PM on October 10, 2012 [33 favorites]
To me, his behaviour sounds controlling and resentful.
Becoming more independent makes controlling guys fairly unhappy FWIW - you're just supposed to do as your told and not get any ideas about doing your own thing.
I'm not sure how effective couples counselling will be either.
posted by heyjude at 10:07 PM on October 10, 2012 [6 favorites]
Becoming more independent makes controlling guys fairly unhappy FWIW - you're just supposed to do as your told and not get any ideas about doing your own thing.
I'm not sure how effective couples counselling will be either.
posted by heyjude at 10:07 PM on October 10, 2012 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: Exhibit A isn't really that it wasn't convenient for him to talk then. It is that after having explained the importance of making a quick decision, when I push him to not just angrily say later, but to choose a specific time, he will choose a time needlessly, pointlessly far in the future.
posted by KoiPond at 10:08 PM on October 10, 2012
posted by KoiPond at 10:08 PM on October 10, 2012
Sounds like a total jerk. Why do you want to date a total jerk? I wouldn't want to share an office with someone like that, let alone a relationship.
posted by oceanjesse at 10:13 PM on October 10, 2012 [11 favorites]
posted by oceanjesse at 10:13 PM on October 10, 2012 [11 favorites]
Response by poster: Eyebrows, that is exactly how I respond to G, but what I get is invariably a meltdown.
posted by KoiPond at 10:14 PM on October 10, 2012
posted by KoiPond at 10:14 PM on October 10, 2012
Based on your description, he sounds awful.
However, it's not very important what my opinion is of him (or, more precisely, what my opinion is of the version of him I've read about on the internet). What matters is how you feel about it. For instance, if you can't stand when he tears down your sense of humor in front of people, that matters. It's relatively insignificant how I'd feel in that situation. It seems obvious from everything you've written that you really hate all of this. That's what matters for you. You have to make your own decisions for yourself.
posted by John Cohen at 10:15 PM on October 10, 2012 [3 favorites]
However, it's not very important what my opinion is of him (or, more precisely, what my opinion is of the version of him I've read about on the internet). What matters is how you feel about it. For instance, if you can't stand when he tears down your sense of humor in front of people, that matters. It's relatively insignificant how I'd feel in that situation. It seems obvious from everything you've written that you really hate all of this. That's what matters for you. You have to make your own decisions for yourself.
posted by John Cohen at 10:15 PM on October 10, 2012 [3 favorites]
If I made a list of the 7 most annoying communication habits of my boyfriend I'm fairly certain I could get a MeFi chorus of DTMFA going despite the fact that approximately zero people who know us in real life would give the same advice. (In fact, your A would be on my list, and your G would probably be on his list about me.)
There's a lot of context missing. Certainly these are annoying, certainly the teasing and the baiting about your memory are not respectful things and are a real issue. But is it a pattern of manipulation, or is it just lack of good communication skills...I really don't think there's any way to tell from your question.
Are these behaviors that you manage to work through and eventually communicate effectively, or do you feel entirely blocked from sharing your needs? Is the relationship respectful and loving otherwise, or are there other ways you don't feel valued and respected? Do these behaviors often result in you doing things against your wishes, just because it's easier than continuing the conflict? Do you find yourself doubting your own worth or opinions? Those would be helpful questions to ask yourself about how damaging his behaviors are to the relationship and to you.
Do you want to be in this relationship? You can end it if your heart's not in it, even if objectively he's a very nice and well-intentioned guy.
It seems to me that if he's open to therapy, that's going to be much more productive than anything you'll find here.
posted by psycheslamp at 10:17 PM on October 10, 2012 [29 favorites]
There's a lot of context missing. Certainly these are annoying, certainly the teasing and the baiting about your memory are not respectful things and are a real issue. But is it a pattern of manipulation, or is it just lack of good communication skills...I really don't think there's any way to tell from your question.
Are these behaviors that you manage to work through and eventually communicate effectively, or do you feel entirely blocked from sharing your needs? Is the relationship respectful and loving otherwise, or are there other ways you don't feel valued and respected? Do these behaviors often result in you doing things against your wishes, just because it's easier than continuing the conflict? Do you find yourself doubting your own worth or opinions? Those would be helpful questions to ask yourself about how damaging his behaviors are to the relationship and to you.
Do you want to be in this relationship? You can end it if your heart's not in it, even if objectively he's a very nice and well-intentioned guy.
It seems to me that if he's open to therapy, that's going to be much more productive than anything you'll find here.
posted by psycheslamp at 10:17 PM on October 10, 2012 [29 favorites]
I'll be honest: some of this is stuff that would be no big deal for me.
But if it is a big deal for you? Then no, that's not crazy. Not at all. You totally are entitled to have opinions and preferences, and that includes saying stuff like "Most people are okay with XYZ, but it drives me up the fucking wall and I really don't want to date someone who does XYZ a lot."
If he isn't interested in changing these behaviors, and they make you feel crappy enough that you aren't interested in putting up with them, then the two of you aren't compatible. Nothing to be ashamed of there. Break up and find people you're more compatible with.
posted by nebulawindphone at 10:28 PM on October 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
But if it is a big deal for you? Then no, that's not crazy. Not at all. You totally are entitled to have opinions and preferences, and that includes saying stuff like "Most people are okay with XYZ, but it drives me up the fucking wall and I really don't want to date someone who does XYZ a lot."
If he isn't interested in changing these behaviors, and they make you feel crappy enough that you aren't interested in putting up with them, then the two of you aren't compatible. Nothing to be ashamed of there. Break up and find people you're more compatible with.
posted by nebulawindphone at 10:28 PM on October 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
These are classic "one-up/one-down relationship" behaviors. If you feel like you never win, then I'd guess that, yeah, it's because the game is rigged. I think there are two reasonable options: A) walk away, because this is crap; B) learn to spot one-upmanship as it happens, call him on it, and if he's not self-aware enough and fair enough at heart to raise his hands and say, "sorry, I give--I value your self-esteem and don't need to use cheap tactics to assert dominance," and can't eventually learn to cut this out, then go back to option A.
posted by Monsieur Caution at 10:28 PM on October 10, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by Monsieur Caution at 10:28 PM on October 10, 2012 [7 favorites]
Here's a good objective test to see if you are a total nut hatch.
1. Do you hold down a job? In your job do you have any of these communication issues? Do you feel like you are a total nut hatch at work?
2. Do you have other significant relationships in your life? In your other relationships do you have any of these communication issues? Do you feel like you are a total nut hatch in your other relationships?
If you answer both of these questions no, then it is likely that you are not a total nut hatch.
Here's a good objective test to see if you are in a relationship with a controlling, angry, emotionally abusive person.
1. Does your partner habitually ignore your concerns, or put you down in front of other people, or behave like normal requests are completely unreasonable, or try to control your interactions with other people, or tell you your memory of discussions or events is lacking or incorrect, or turn every discussion about any of these things into a discussion of your own shortcomings or make you feel like you are crazy for thinking any of these things?
Here is a link to a book that might help you clarify what is going on for you. I've been in your shoes and if I were you I would use them to run, not walk, to the nearest exit from this relationship. I would not bother with couples counseling, though individual therapy can still be useful.
But it's a good relationship in other ways? No it isn't, because it's based on him being able to control your behavior.
But you love him? We all love them. Partly because the flip side of controlling and manipulative is charm and fascination and persuasion. Partly because every time it gets too awful, they turn the charm back on and you remember why you got involved in the first place.
Run, don't walk. He is not a good person and this is not a good way to spend your life.
posted by yogalemon at 10:52 PM on October 10, 2012 [16 favorites]
1. Do you hold down a job? In your job do you have any of these communication issues? Do you feel like you are a total nut hatch at work?
2. Do you have other significant relationships in your life? In your other relationships do you have any of these communication issues? Do you feel like you are a total nut hatch in your other relationships?
If you answer both of these questions no, then it is likely that you are not a total nut hatch.
Here's a good objective test to see if you are in a relationship with a controlling, angry, emotionally abusive person.
1. Does your partner habitually ignore your concerns, or put you down in front of other people, or behave like normal requests are completely unreasonable, or try to control your interactions with other people, or tell you your memory of discussions or events is lacking or incorrect, or turn every discussion about any of these things into a discussion of your own shortcomings or make you feel like you are crazy for thinking any of these things?
Here is a link to a book that might help you clarify what is going on for you. I've been in your shoes and if I were you I would use them to run, not walk, to the nearest exit from this relationship. I would not bother with couples counseling, though individual therapy can still be useful.
But it's a good relationship in other ways? No it isn't, because it's based on him being able to control your behavior.
But you love him? We all love them. Partly because the flip side of controlling and manipulative is charm and fascination and persuasion. Partly because every time it gets too awful, they turn the charm back on and you remember why you got involved in the first place.
Run, don't walk. He is not a good person and this is not a good way to spend your life.
posted by yogalemon at 10:52 PM on October 10, 2012 [16 favorites]
This guy honestly sounds like a dick. But as others have mentioned above, I think the key thing here is that YOU do not feel respected in this relationship. Whatever level of teasing/communication style/etc. other people might prefer or be able to tolerate, your SO is engaging in a ton of behaviors that make you feel like shit, and that is not cool! If you want to try and work through this together, go for it, but definitely set a time limit by which point things need to be measurably better - not perfect, of course, but different in meaningful ways. In my experience, fundamental mismatches like this in the way people approach relationships aren't easily solved, and it's way to easy for someone to say "hey I recognize this problem and I'm 'trying,' so give me credit!" when really nothing significant is different in how YOU feel you're being treated on a day-to-day basis.
posted by rainbowbrite at 10:53 PM on October 10, 2012
posted by rainbowbrite at 10:53 PM on October 10, 2012
To me, it sounds like your boyfriend has control issues, especially with your update that the more independent you are, the worse he becomes.
However, my mother thinks I have control issues, but I think she does. So it's really hard to judge who's right and who's wrong, or who's the nutcase and who's note (or you both are or none of you are but you are just incompatible) from this post.
I would get an opinion from someone you trust who actually knows you.
posted by ethidda at 10:54 PM on October 10, 2012 [2 favorites]
However, my mother thinks I have control issues, but I think she does. So it's really hard to judge who's right and who's wrong, or who's the nutcase and who's note (or you both are or none of you are but you are just incompatible) from this post.
I would get an opinion from someone you trust who actually knows you.
posted by ethidda at 10:54 PM on October 10, 2012 [2 favorites]
Are you married or just dating? How invested in him are you?
If he is underneath it all very sensitive, and on top of that stressed out, AND in couples therapy he will work with you on communication issues - stay, it is very well fixable.
If he's kinda an a-hole, and you are not married - run for the hills! You can do better!
That's my take on your examples.
Sometimes when I am overwhelmed I resemble some of your examples, sometimes when my husband is overwhelmed he matches some of your examples. But only to a point, y'know?
"B" only makes sense if you have children or high maintnance pets to care for. "D" is unacceptable on all levels at all times.
posted by jbenben at 11:16 PM on October 10, 2012 [3 favorites]
If he is underneath it all very sensitive, and on top of that stressed out, AND in couples therapy he will work with you on communication issues - stay, it is very well fixable.
If he's kinda an a-hole, and you are not married - run for the hills! You can do better!
That's my take on your examples.
Sometimes when I am overwhelmed I resemble some of your examples, sometimes when my husband is overwhelmed he matches some of your examples. But only to a point, y'know?
"B" only makes sense if you have children or high maintnance pets to care for. "D" is unacceptable on all levels at all times.
posted by jbenben at 11:16 PM on October 10, 2012 [3 favorites]
D is not only manipulative, but appallingly emotionally abusive. A kind person doesn't go out of his/her way to make anyone feel ashamed or humiliated in public. Not a stranger, not an acquaintance, and especially not the person (s)he is supposed to love the most.
You sound great. You can do so, SO much better.
posted by arianell at 11:52 PM on October 10, 2012 [6 favorites]
You sound great. You can do so, SO much better.
posted by arianell at 11:52 PM on October 10, 2012 [6 favorites]
It took me a long time to realize, and realize enough to act upon it, that it doesn't matter if and how much these behaviors are bad or destructive or leave-worthy in relationships. Consistently not feeling happy, appreciated, heard and safe is really, truly, enough. It's enough. You deserve to feel all of those things, in any relationship. That's what you're both in it for.
Even if the guy were a saint and none of the things you say above (which, incidentally are clearly reasons way beyond enough), but you were still feeling those feelings (for whatever reasons, even if little to do with him), I'd still recommend you duck out. Because it's the feelings that matter. Relationships add to your life. And the frictions or disagreements or negative feelings are worth working on because they amount to much less than what each of you get that's good. That you're constantly feeling annoyed, confused, constrained and controlled is not a healthy addition, and can't possibly balance out to a net positive given the rest. You can do without it all.
posted by iamkimiam at 12:48 AM on October 11, 2012 [21 favorites]
Even if the guy were a saint and none of the things you say above (which, incidentally are clearly reasons way beyond enough), but you were still feeling those feelings (for whatever reasons, even if little to do with him), I'd still recommend you duck out. Because it's the feelings that matter. Relationships add to your life. And the frictions or disagreements or negative feelings are worth working on because they amount to much less than what each of you get that's good. That you're constantly feeling annoyed, confused, constrained and controlled is not a healthy addition, and can't possibly balance out to a net positive given the rest. You can do without it all.
posted by iamkimiam at 12:48 AM on October 11, 2012 [21 favorites]
G is practically the definition of gaslighting.
I feel self-conscious to begin with about my memory, which is not awesome due to factors beyond my control...
If he knows you have this issue, and is using it against you... that is not love. Love is not using someone's weaknesses against them; love and compassion are recognizing that we're all different and, for instance, a weak memory is not helped by going, "guess!", it is helped by saying, for instance, "We had a really long conversation yesterday that I've been thinking about, do you remember when I said XYZ?" This would give you the chance to answer "yes" and comment on it if you feel like it; if you say "no" then our theoretical, compassionate person could continue, "Oh, okay, it was in the context of ABC, do you remember that?" at which point you're actually pretty likely to remember it because that's how memory is helped, with context.
Definitely not by going, "Guess! I can't believe you don't remember. Can you see how hard it is for me when you don't remember what we talked about? It's like you're a blank slate. I feel so alone."
If you don't mind a personal anecdote, I was with a man who started out like this and got worse. My parents had been similar. So, I had grown up believing I had a terrible, awful, no-good memory, and saw it confirmed by that ex; it all seemed "natural". Interestingly, as soon as I left my ex and cut off contact with my parents, my memory no longer posed problems. In fact, it turns out that it's pretty good. So, while you may indeed have external factors contributing to your memory issues, rest assured of two things: first, your bf is entirely, completely out of line by being aggressive about it rather than compassionate, and second, he's probably contributing to worsening rather than helping matters. Especially as in one of your updates you say he has meltdowns when you ask him to take a constructive tack. That's completely unacceptable behavior, and as it seems he's not making a genuine effort to recognize the problem... this is something that even therapy may not be able to make headway against. People have to recognize their issues (as you do for your memory!) in order to work on them.
posted by fraula at 2:33 AM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]
I feel self-conscious to begin with about my memory, which is not awesome due to factors beyond my control...
If he knows you have this issue, and is using it against you... that is not love. Love is not using someone's weaknesses against them; love and compassion are recognizing that we're all different and, for instance, a weak memory is not helped by going, "guess!", it is helped by saying, for instance, "We had a really long conversation yesterday that I've been thinking about, do you remember when I said XYZ?" This would give you the chance to answer "yes" and comment on it if you feel like it; if you say "no" then our theoretical, compassionate person could continue, "Oh, okay, it was in the context of ABC, do you remember that?" at which point you're actually pretty likely to remember it because that's how memory is helped, with context.
Definitely not by going, "Guess! I can't believe you don't remember. Can you see how hard it is for me when you don't remember what we talked about? It's like you're a blank slate. I feel so alone."
If you don't mind a personal anecdote, I was with a man who started out like this and got worse. My parents had been similar. So, I had grown up believing I had a terrible, awful, no-good memory, and saw it confirmed by that ex; it all seemed "natural". Interestingly, as soon as I left my ex and cut off contact with my parents, my memory no longer posed problems. In fact, it turns out that it's pretty good. So, while you may indeed have external factors contributing to your memory issues, rest assured of two things: first, your bf is entirely, completely out of line by being aggressive about it rather than compassionate, and second, he's probably contributing to worsening rather than helping matters. Especially as in one of your updates you say he has meltdowns when you ask him to take a constructive tack. That's completely unacceptable behavior, and as it seems he's not making a genuine effort to recognize the problem... this is something that even therapy may not be able to make headway against. People have to recognize their issues (as you do for your memory!) in order to work on them.
posted by fraula at 2:33 AM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]
It sounds like you're unhappy in the relationship. Constantly fretting about whether you're being manipulated is not a good way to live your life.
I don't know if this guy is trying to be manipulative or if he's just unpleasant/ a jerk, but he sounds incredibly obnoxious, childish, and insistant upon having things his way. Is this really a person you want to continue to deal with?
I don't think it matters specifically whether "manipulative" is the exact word to describe this behaviour. It sounds pretty clear that he's not able to be engaged in a reasonable adult relationship. Take from that what you will.
(Also, yes, I think he kind of is).
posted by windykites at 3:00 AM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
I don't know if this guy is trying to be manipulative or if he's just unpleasant/ a jerk, but he sounds incredibly obnoxious, childish, and insistant upon having things his way. Is this really a person you want to continue to deal with?
I don't think it matters specifically whether "manipulative" is the exact word to describe this behaviour. It sounds pretty clear that he's not able to be engaged in a reasonable adult relationship. Take from that what you will.
(Also, yes, I think he kind of is).
posted by windykites at 3:00 AM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
A. When I ask to talk to him about something in particular, he won't arrange to speak to me at the soonest reasonable time. Instead, he says not now, but Later. When later, I ask. Some completely arbitrary date/time in the future, he says. We're not talking about big conversations here, just confirming a date for a plane ticket, or deciding whether or not to ask company over on the weekend. Something for which I need a timely answer. My theory is that his point is simply to control through restriction of information and making me wait.
This could be avoidance behavior, or something else, like procrastination.
I don't think your theory is accurate.
That said, it doesn't sound as though he's very good for you.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:10 AM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]
This could be avoidance behavior, or something else, like procrastination.
I don't think your theory is accurate.
That said, it doesn't sound as though he's very good for you.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:10 AM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]
sometimes he will shout stop
This may be used to train dogs, bit it's also a method of coping with people who are yelling/ getting overly emotional/ bullying. I read about it in a book called (I think) coping with difficult people.
The point is that he might be unable to handle communicating with the OP in a way that works for both of them, but not have malicious intentions.
posted by windykites at 3:23 AM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]
This may be used to train dogs, bit it's also a method of coping with people who are yelling/ getting overly emotional/ bullying. I read about it in a book called (I think) coping with difficult people.
The point is that he might be unable to handle communicating with the OP in a way that works for both of them, but not have malicious intentions.
posted by windykites at 3:23 AM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'm not convinced your partner is necessarily being excessively controlling or acting like a jerk. For one, there is no context of the relationship aside from your handfull of examples where you weren't happy with him. Secondly, there is next to no discussion on your behaviour, your reactions, how you behave towards him, etc. Frankly, with the lack of sufficient information, I can see both sides of basically every one of your examples, save D and even that example is questionable due to your not giving an example of the kinds of things he would say or do etc.
In regards to your specific examples:
A: I am in what I consider to be a very healthy, loving, mutually respectful relationship with a man. We have a very high level of communication and openness. He and I have both done this on occasion for lots of reasons. Sometimes we put it off because we know the conversation is going to turn in to a bigger issue so we put it off until a time where we can actually discuss things fully. Or sometimes we put it off because we have a few other major things going on and we simply don't have the time. For us it has nothing to do with control and everything to do with timing.
B: I think he was being completely reasonable asking you to pass things like purchasing airline tickets with him. It doesn't matter that it was cheap and that it was just you flying. I think that is something he should have been aware of prior, and having your family call and ask him about it and him having no idea would have been probably pretty awkward and frustrating for him. I'd be pretty irate if my partner did that.
C: Yes, it could be that he is stonewalling you and maybe gaslighting you. I have no clue. However, there are times when my partner and I are discussing something and neither of us are making any progress and we're just going around in circles and getting irritated with each other, one of us will almost always say "I am unable to continue having this conversation right now.". We both know that means "Stop for now. We'll try again later.". Sometimes there will be some unhappy feelings over the fact that we weren't able to get it dealt with on the first go, sometimes we'll feel bad for getting the other to a point where they were too frustrated and were risking getting snippy, but I'd always choose to delay the conversation until he and I are both able to come at it rationally and calmly.
D: This sounds not good. I can see, depending upon the types of "joking" and "barbs", how this would be pretty upsetting. However, you don't give an example of the type of remarks he is making. Sometimes my partner will make a joke about a disagreement that he and I just had. He does it to try to lighten the mood and get us past the irritation, not to tease me or try to get me upset. Sometimes it is too soon and I'll just say "Too soon." and he'll let it lie for a while longer. Maybe your boyfriend is doing that, or maybe he really is just being an ass. We can't say.
E: Yes, that would be absolutely frustrating and insulting if someone did that to me, but as said above that is a method of coping with people who are getting excessively emotional or loud or attacking. I'm not saying you were necessarily being that way, but it may be worth thinking back on how YOU were communicating before he did that. Maybe he WAS trying to control you, but maybe he was trying to control the level of emotion and hositility/anger/etc in the conversation.
F: That also would be frustrating, but maybe he saw it as a derail and wants to just focus on the task at hand. For example, if you are arguing about who should empty the dishwasher and you say "Oh, and I have had to pick up your clothes three times this week!". To you that seems on topic because it is another unbalanced housekeeping item, but to him he just wants to solve the dishwasher issue. To me this feels more likely to be a communication difference than him being an ass, but again.. no examples so no way to know.
G: I COMPLETELY feel for you on this one. If your memory is worse than most for whatever reason and you have trouble remembering key discussions and then your partner gets upset because you don't... yeah, that would be frustrating. I also see his point too, though. I mean, he feels that you have important conversations and when you can't remember them he probably feels as though you don't/didn't care or that they weren't important to you. Can you maybe start making some sort of gesture/effort to remember those conversations better? Maybe ask him before/just after the conversation whether this is a "must remember" one and then make effort to maybe write key parts down? At least then a) he'd see you were trying extra hard and b) if he gets after you for not remembering and he hadn't told you it was a must remember conversation you'd at least be able to defend yourself.
_______________________
The relationship askmefi questions that have nothing positive written about their partner usually, to me, spell doom. You didn't say a single positive thing about him, and I think that should be telling for you. Whether or not he is being controlling, whether or not you are a "nut hatch", it really sounds like this relationship isn't working out. You don't need the internet to convince you that he is being excessively controlling or abusive to have permission to end it.
You're unhappy in your relationship.
That is enough of a reason to leave.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 4:22 AM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]
In regards to your specific examples:
A: I am in what I consider to be a very healthy, loving, mutually respectful relationship with a man. We have a very high level of communication and openness. He and I have both done this on occasion for lots of reasons. Sometimes we put it off because we know the conversation is going to turn in to a bigger issue so we put it off until a time where we can actually discuss things fully. Or sometimes we put it off because we have a few other major things going on and we simply don't have the time. For us it has nothing to do with control and everything to do with timing.
B: I think he was being completely reasonable asking you to pass things like purchasing airline tickets with him. It doesn't matter that it was cheap and that it was just you flying. I think that is something he should have been aware of prior, and having your family call and ask him about it and him having no idea would have been probably pretty awkward and frustrating for him. I'd be pretty irate if my partner did that.
C: Yes, it could be that he is stonewalling you and maybe gaslighting you. I have no clue. However, there are times when my partner and I are discussing something and neither of us are making any progress and we're just going around in circles and getting irritated with each other, one of us will almost always say "I am unable to continue having this conversation right now.". We both know that means "Stop for now. We'll try again later.". Sometimes there will be some unhappy feelings over the fact that we weren't able to get it dealt with on the first go, sometimes we'll feel bad for getting the other to a point where they were too frustrated and were risking getting snippy, but I'd always choose to delay the conversation until he and I are both able to come at it rationally and calmly.
D: This sounds not good. I can see, depending upon the types of "joking" and "barbs", how this would be pretty upsetting. However, you don't give an example of the type of remarks he is making. Sometimes my partner will make a joke about a disagreement that he and I just had. He does it to try to lighten the mood and get us past the irritation, not to tease me or try to get me upset. Sometimes it is too soon and I'll just say "Too soon." and he'll let it lie for a while longer. Maybe your boyfriend is doing that, or maybe he really is just being an ass. We can't say.
E: Yes, that would be absolutely frustrating and insulting if someone did that to me, but as said above that is a method of coping with people who are getting excessively emotional or loud or attacking. I'm not saying you were necessarily being that way, but it may be worth thinking back on how YOU were communicating before he did that. Maybe he WAS trying to control you, but maybe he was trying to control the level of emotion and hositility/anger/etc in the conversation.
F: That also would be frustrating, but maybe he saw it as a derail and wants to just focus on the task at hand. For example, if you are arguing about who should empty the dishwasher and you say "Oh, and I have had to pick up your clothes three times this week!". To you that seems on topic because it is another unbalanced housekeeping item, but to him he just wants to solve the dishwasher issue. To me this feels more likely to be a communication difference than him being an ass, but again.. no examples so no way to know.
G: I COMPLETELY feel for you on this one. If your memory is worse than most for whatever reason and you have trouble remembering key discussions and then your partner gets upset because you don't... yeah, that would be frustrating. I also see his point too, though. I mean, he feels that you have important conversations and when you can't remember them he probably feels as though you don't/didn't care or that they weren't important to you. Can you maybe start making some sort of gesture/effort to remember those conversations better? Maybe ask him before/just after the conversation whether this is a "must remember" one and then make effort to maybe write key parts down? At least then a) he'd see you were trying extra hard and b) if he gets after you for not remembering and he hadn't told you it was a must remember conversation you'd at least be able to defend yourself.
_______________________
The relationship askmefi questions that have nothing positive written about their partner usually, to me, spell doom. You didn't say a single positive thing about him, and I think that should be telling for you. Whether or not he is being controlling, whether or not you are a "nut hatch", it really sounds like this relationship isn't working out. You don't need the internet to convince you that he is being excessively controlling or abusive to have permission to end it.
You're unhappy in your relationship.
That is enough of a reason to leave.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 4:22 AM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]
You know what? If he makes you feel this bad about yourself and doubt yourself so much, it's ok to end it with him. Hell if it's not him but just the relationship that makes you feel that way, it's ok to end it with him. We all deserve to be with people who make us feel loved, and heard, and not bullied, and not manipulated. Either do some SERIOUS couples counseling if he's willing or I'd say just end it, because no one should be having to ask the question "am I a nut hatch?" when their partner is at best a really shitty communicator and at worst a real asshole.
posted by twiggy32 at 4:23 AM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by twiggy32 at 4:23 AM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]
He sounds insecure and uncertain about how to approach a peer-to-peer relationship and has settled into a relatively stable coping mechanism by being mentally dominant through controlling, belittling and possibly gaslighting you so that you do not threaten him. It's a pattern of behaviour that can easily self-reinforce and will become worse should you attempt to counter it without fully invested co-operation from his end, as in a "I have seen Jesus and realized that my entire relationsihp with you is based on me being an asshole and you being a mouse and that's not what I want out of life so lets you, me and this couples therapist work on this for several years to sort it out".
Summing up, he sounds like an asshole, and if he doesn't want to stop being an asshole, you can't make him stop.
All you can do on your own is save yourself -- by leaving. You said you're becoming more independant and willful, and in response he's turning up the control. It's time to spread those wings of independence and see where they take you.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:34 AM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]
Summing up, he sounds like an asshole, and if he doesn't want to stop being an asshole, you can't make him stop.
All you can do on your own is save yourself -- by leaving. You said you're becoming more independant and willful, and in response he's turning up the control. It's time to spread those wings of independence and see where they take you.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:34 AM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]
Nthing seanmpuckett. Was gonna write the same stuff, which I see in a sibling and in a superior. It can be scary how much people of this nature seem like they're running on the same software.
The probably obvious additional two thoughts: to the extent that someone wants to make changes, it's a virtual certainty that they will be incremental and take real work, and if there's a lack of regard or concern about your reactions, if the game's not over, its in its waning seconds and the lead is insurmountable.
posted by ambient2 at 4:47 AM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]
The probably obvious additional two thoughts: to the extent that someone wants to make changes, it's a virtual certainty that they will be incremental and take real work, and if there's a lack of regard or concern about your reactions, if the game's not over, its in its waning seconds and the lead is insurmountable.
posted by ambient2 at 4:47 AM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]
Maybe you are a nuthatch, but nuthatches are adorable and deserve respect. If you're not getting it and he's not trying, then it's over.
posted by alusru at 5:00 AM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]
posted by alusru at 5:00 AM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]
Well, is it having the effect of controlling and manipulating you? It certainly sounds like it; you have to have conversations on your terms and not his (A, C, E, F), you're made to feel bad for bringing up your problems with his behaviour (C) and actively punished for doing that (D), you're constantly angrily chided for something you have little control over (G), and you're put in impossible situations (A+B - if you buy a plane ticket for yourself without 're-confirming' the date with him, he's annoyed with you, but if you try to re-confirm the date with him, he refuses to talk about it until some arbitrary time in the future? What?).
I think it's easy with situations like this one to put a lot of weight on what he's intentionally doing, because obviously 'actively trying to control you' is a worse picture than 'controlling you unintentionally'. But really, the effect is the same - you're still being controlled. It doesn't actually matter whether he's acting like this on purpose, or subconsciously, or is just really bad at relationships and unintentionally having this effect, or whether he's being controlled by an evil sorcerer - it is still happening, it is still making you feel bad in this relationship, and it needs to stop or you need to go.
You have a better idea than any of us do about how receptive he's going to be to working on this behaviour. Based on D, it sounds like the answer is 'not very', but you say in your comments that he's agreed to see a counsellor, so maybe there's hope. Couples counselling might or might not be useful; if the behaviour is just poor communication skills, then couples counselling could help, but if it's emotional abuse (and D certainly seems that way) then couples counselling is generally not recommended and can actually make things worse. So it might be useful for you to see a counsellor just by yourself at first, to get your head straight about what's going on here and whether or not couples counselling is a route you want to go down.
(One of the things controlling people sometimes do, by the way, is put you in unwinnable situations - they convince you that if you just did XYZ they'd be happy with you, while forever moving the goalposts about what XYZ is, or expecting you to read their minds, or asking you to do things that contradict each other. The idea behind this is that they're exercising control through being annoyed with you about doing things wrong, so they're always going to find something you're doing wrong to be annoyed with you about to keep you running round trying to please them. This might not be your boyfriend at all - but if it is, be mindful that it's not easily fixed, and would only improve if he genuinely wanted it to.)
posted by Catseye at 5:44 AM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]
I think it's easy with situations like this one to put a lot of weight on what he's intentionally doing, because obviously 'actively trying to control you' is a worse picture than 'controlling you unintentionally'. But really, the effect is the same - you're still being controlled. It doesn't actually matter whether he's acting like this on purpose, or subconsciously, or is just really bad at relationships and unintentionally having this effect, or whether he's being controlled by an evil sorcerer - it is still happening, it is still making you feel bad in this relationship, and it needs to stop or you need to go.
You have a better idea than any of us do about how receptive he's going to be to working on this behaviour. Based on D, it sounds like the answer is 'not very', but you say in your comments that he's agreed to see a counsellor, so maybe there's hope. Couples counselling might or might not be useful; if the behaviour is just poor communication skills, then couples counselling could help, but if it's emotional abuse (and D certainly seems that way) then couples counselling is generally not recommended and can actually make things worse. So it might be useful for you to see a counsellor just by yourself at first, to get your head straight about what's going on here and whether or not couples counselling is a route you want to go down.
(One of the things controlling people sometimes do, by the way, is put you in unwinnable situations - they convince you that if you just did XYZ they'd be happy with you, while forever moving the goalposts about what XYZ is, or expecting you to read their minds, or asking you to do things that contradict each other. The idea behind this is that they're exercising control through being annoyed with you about doing things wrong, so they're always going to find something you're doing wrong to be annoyed with you about to keep you running round trying to please them. This might not be your boyfriend at all - but if it is, be mindful that it's not easily fixed, and would only improve if he genuinely wanted it to.)
posted by Catseye at 5:44 AM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]
Together for three years. He seems to have gotten worse as I'v gotten more independent. I have seen an individual therapist, which has been most helpful to me.
-------> Oh honey. I'm sorry to hear this.
I dated the same guy about 3 years ago (we were together for 5 years). In my situation it did NOT get better and in fact, escalated into a physically violent relationship.
I did everything that you're doing - saw a therapist, worked on myself, realized what I wanted to acheive in my next decade (I was rapidly approaching 30 at the time) and nothing got better and whatever I did, he just wouldn't understand me or try to for that matter.
It's going to be tough and scary, but if you decide to leave, I can attest that it only gets better. But only you can make this choice. Good luck, and feel free to MeMail me if you'd like.
posted by floweredfish at 5:56 AM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]
-------> Oh honey. I'm sorry to hear this.
I dated the same guy about 3 years ago (we were together for 5 years). In my situation it did NOT get better and in fact, escalated into a physically violent relationship.
I did everything that you're doing - saw a therapist, worked on myself, realized what I wanted to acheive in my next decade (I was rapidly approaching 30 at the time) and nothing got better and whatever I did, he just wouldn't understand me or try to for that matter.
It's going to be tough and scary, but if you decide to leave, I can attest that it only gets better. But only you can make this choice. Good luck, and feel free to MeMail me if you'd like.
posted by floweredfish at 5:56 AM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]
Have you brought up these issues during a neutral time? "When you do these things it makes me feel like xyz, can we calmly figure out a way to handle this better in the future?"
If he still stonewalls you in a neutral setting, or tells you your feelings are irrational, or that he doesn't mean to make you feel that way and therefore it's your problem.... "OK, I feel like you're not interested in changing the way we deal with these situations and that makes me upset because I've explicitly told you it bothers me". If you are that direct and he still doesn't want to work on it, then I think you are with a manipulative person.
FWIW, example B might ruffle me a little depending on circumstance. I am weird about plans being up in the air sometimes, so IF it was a last minute thing I might be a little like "can you please tell me this stuff just so I know what's going on". BUT if it wasn't even me going on the trip and I knew the trip was happening on (tentative dates), it wouldn't be more than a minor ruffle.
D and G to me are specifically the most crappy habits on his part. If you've directly told him "dude, I can't help having a bad memory, that is not OK to use against me" and "I don't like when you tease me about x, it makes me feel like XYZ even if you're just joking", then that is manipulative. (And I think it's mostly irrelevant whether he teases you after you're upset with him... no matter when it is, if you are sensitive about certain things and he knows it and picks on you anyway, he's a jerk.)
posted by nakedmolerats at 6:30 AM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
If he still stonewalls you in a neutral setting, or tells you your feelings are irrational, or that he doesn't mean to make you feel that way and therefore it's your problem.... "OK, I feel like you're not interested in changing the way we deal with these situations and that makes me upset because I've explicitly told you it bothers me". If you are that direct and he still doesn't want to work on it, then I think you are with a manipulative person.
FWIW, example B might ruffle me a little depending on circumstance. I am weird about plans being up in the air sometimes, so IF it was a last minute thing I might be a little like "can you please tell me this stuff just so I know what's going on". BUT if it wasn't even me going on the trip and I knew the trip was happening on (tentative dates), it wouldn't be more than a minor ruffle.
D and G to me are specifically the most crappy habits on his part. If you've directly told him "dude, I can't help having a bad memory, that is not OK to use against me" and "I don't like when you tease me about x, it makes me feel like XYZ even if you're just joking", then that is manipulative. (And I think it's mostly irrelevant whether he teases you after you're upset with him... no matter when it is, if you are sensitive about certain things and he knows it and picks on you anyway, he's a jerk.)
posted by nakedmolerats at 6:30 AM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
I highly recommend you read The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans. She doesn't describe verbal abuse in the more standard insults and screeching, but a subtler form that is more related to what your boyfriend is doing.
I can't say from your post that he is being verbally abusive, it could be that the two of you are caught in a power struggle. The only way to break out of it is to refuse to play.
(The one giant flaw in the book is that it assumes all abusers are men, since I'm female and it was mainly helpful to realize that it was ME being the dick I find that flaw aggravating.)
posted by Dynex at 6:39 AM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]
I can't say from your post that he is being verbally abusive, it could be that the two of you are caught in a power struggle. The only way to break out of it is to refuse to play.
(The one giant flaw in the book is that it assumes all abusers are men, since I'm female and it was mainly helpful to realize that it was ME being the dick I find that flaw aggravating.)
posted by Dynex at 6:39 AM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]
I struggle with very similar issues with my dh and have spent countless hours analyzing arguments and events to decide whether or not my issues with things he said/did were valid or if I was just making things up in my head. The only thing I know for sure is that it probably is *not* normal to expend this amount of time and energy devoted to determining if uncomfortable feelings are valid.
The fact that you feel so unsure of yourself that you are questioning your emotions and doubting yourself speak volumes. If you have kids I would get counseling and see if you can work through it, if not I would consider just dtmfa and seek individual counseling for a while to figure out how you got here so you don't do it again. If you are in a situation where you walk around doubting yourself all the time that is no way to live.
Good Luck!
posted by momtothreedc at 6:47 AM on October 11, 2012
The fact that you feel so unsure of yourself that you are questioning your emotions and doubting yourself speak volumes. If you have kids I would get counseling and see if you can work through it, if not I would consider just dtmfa and seek individual counseling for a while to figure out how you got here so you don't do it again. If you are in a situation where you walk around doubting yourself all the time that is no way to live.
Good Luck!
posted by momtothreedc at 6:47 AM on October 11, 2012
This behavior does not sound good. However, even if he made adjustments here in terms of his outward behavior as described here, it really sounds as if you both have radically different communication patterns, needs, and styles, and also very different comfort zones with how this is carried out. In the end you both either need to address these larger issues, either by working on change, or separating.
posted by carter at 6:51 AM on October 11, 2012
posted by carter at 6:51 AM on October 11, 2012
For me, D is the deal breaker. Even if you were a "nuthatch" when it came to taking ribbings too personally or something, his job as a long term partner is to be aware, not do it especially in front of others, and be apologetic during the rare slip-up when informed that what he said bothered you. If you have even said once, "this behavior bothers me," and it has continued, D enough would be reason for me to break up for reasons of manipulation. You are the one being hurt and that does not change just because he says you shouldn't be. Relationships are compromises, but your mental well-being should be the most important thing to you, not maintaining a relationship that is compromising it with continued D actions.
A seems also assholish with your clarification. Saying, "I am mentally not in a place after work tonight to think about dates, could we talk in the morning," is reasonable. Answering a request for further clarification on "later" with "October 16th, 2015," without humor is the behavior of a child. I don't think you have any interest in dating a child. B also kind of bothers me, with the idea of "re-confirm." Discussing scheduling logistics within an egalitarian relationship requires confirmation, not re-conformation, which seems like an extra level of demand from him for control. You also say you are the only one flying, does that mean you are taking the trip alone? If so, it's even more concerning to me. Confirming with your partner that they will not need you before going out of town is healthy and fine, but presumably you have no children so if you've already given him the date once and there are no weddings in his family that weekend or something, that should be that. I imagine he can feed himself and doesn't need to make arrangements for a babysitter first.
Obviously, we can only see your side because you're writing this, but these all seem like red flags to me and it boils down to this: if you were my friend and I observed these behaviors on a regular basis, I'd be advising you to run for the hills.
posted by itsonreserve at 6:54 AM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
A seems also assholish with your clarification. Saying, "I am mentally not in a place after work tonight to think about dates, could we talk in the morning," is reasonable. Answering a request for further clarification on "later" with "October 16th, 2015," without humor is the behavior of a child. I don't think you have any interest in dating a child. B also kind of bothers me, with the idea of "re-confirm." Discussing scheduling logistics within an egalitarian relationship requires confirmation, not re-conformation, which seems like an extra level of demand from him for control. You also say you are the only one flying, does that mean you are taking the trip alone? If so, it's even more concerning to me. Confirming with your partner that they will not need you before going out of town is healthy and fine, but presumably you have no children so if you've already given him the date once and there are no weddings in his family that weekend or something, that should be that. I imagine he can feed himself and doesn't need to make arrangements for a babysitter first.
Obviously, we can only see your side because you're writing this, but these all seem like red flags to me and it boils down to this: if you were my friend and I observed these behaviors on a regular basis, I'd be advising you to run for the hills.
posted by itsonreserve at 6:54 AM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
It sounds to me like everything is on his terms, and if you don't play along, he becomes resentful and pouty.
Is it ALWAYS like this, or does it only happen every so often? For example, the "let's talk about this later." Is this with everything you want to discuss, if so, he's manipulating you for the sake of doing it. If it's occasionally, then it may be that it's not convenient for him to talk at that time.
But no matter, you feel controlled, invalidated and frustrated, and that ain't good.
Talk about these things in couples thereapy, but I think by the way that you've asked us about it here that you already KNOW what you want.
That's the thing about therapy, one day you sit up and say, "Oh. I'm being treated badly and I can do something about it."
So, in your heart of hearts you know what you want. You have my permission to DTMFA.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:42 AM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]
Is it ALWAYS like this, or does it only happen every so often? For example, the "let's talk about this later." Is this with everything you want to discuss, if so, he's manipulating you for the sake of doing it. If it's occasionally, then it may be that it's not convenient for him to talk at that time.
But no matter, you feel controlled, invalidated and frustrated, and that ain't good.
Talk about these things in couples thereapy, but I think by the way that you've asked us about it here that you already KNOW what you want.
That's the thing about therapy, one day you sit up and say, "Oh. I'm being treated badly and I can do something about it."
So, in your heart of hearts you know what you want. You have my permission to DTMFA.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:42 AM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]
Ruthless Bunny cuts to the heart of this:
Your partner makes you feel like shit. Often. Over everyday things... so if what you've written is true... fuck that noise.
There are a lot of smart labels people are applying to this shitty behavior but I am happy to stop at shitty.
posted by French Fry at 7:50 AM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]
Your partner makes you feel like shit. Often. Over everyday things... so if what you've written is true... fuck that noise.
There are a lot of smart labels people are applying to this shitty behavior but I am happy to stop at shitty.
posted by French Fry at 7:50 AM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]
I didn't think he sounded unreasonable until I got to D, which is all kinds of not ok. So, while I'm not sure I'd call him manipulative, he definitely sounds like a dick, especially given your update. The fact that he's gotten worse as you've become more independent is a very bad sign.
posted by Ragged Richard at 7:52 AM on October 11, 2012
posted by Ragged Richard at 7:52 AM on October 11, 2012
I've dated this type of guy. He's very sensitive to his self image and wants to feel as if he's always in control, right?
The airplane ticket. It's not explicitly stated, but it sounds like he got embarrassed when your mother confronted him about your visit. He cares a lot about how the world views him and doesn't like to look stupid, regardless if no one else really cares. I mean, your mom doesn't care, right? It was a silly thing to get upset about, at least in your opinion.
Stonewalling: Yeah, this isn't good behavior. Stonewalling doesn't help at all and causes hurt feelings. This just emphasize that your boyfriend likes to keep control of the fight, and will fight only on his terms.
The belittling in front of friends. This is a tactic used to make oneself feel better. After a fight, I'm betting you are both feeling pretty awful, because fights can be pretty draining, right. But he then uses you as a step stool to make himself feel better, and to make himself look like the better half in front of your peers. This is very selfish behavior, and inconsiderate of you at all.
The belittling of your memory. He seems to take it personally that you don't remember certain things. You don't have poor memory, sweetie, trust me, but this guy has drilled it into your head that you do. This is verbal abuse. When someone tells you something enough times, you start to believe it yourself. His refusal to accept that you memory isn't as good as his tells me that me that he's probably taking insult that you don't remember every last thing he says. It's one thing to get upset about it once in a while, especially if it's super important information, but if it's an ongoing thing and he rags on you for little things too, then either he doesn't know how to pick a fit, or he really believes that you should be hanging on to his every single words.
Despite all his misgivings, I also suspect that you are a very sensitive person and may take some things personally.
The plane ticket. Yes, he probably over reacted, but if it incensed you that much, maybe you should take a look why. It sounds like he approached you in a very adult manner and asked you politely let him know in advance next time. You BF isn't always going to ask things that you like to hear, and this isn't worth getting angry over. He isn't as carefree as you, and there's no way you are going to change him to be more carefree, so if you know he gets embarrassed easily, then that's something you need to work with in the future if you want to stay with him Otherwise, this you will always find yourself getting angry when he gets embarrassed over little things.
Off-topic arguments. This one is hard to discern without a little more evidence, but I do want to warn you that, as an emotional person myself, it's very easy to generalize some behavior and tie it to multiple past transgressions, thus making them all appear related. Fights should be about one topic only: how to resolve the problem that caused the fight in the first place. For example, if he does something that makes him appear careless and it hurts your feelings, you shouldn't be bringing up all times when he did something careless in the recent past. In fact, the past shouldn't be brought up at all, as it will cause never-ending fights. You should instead focusing on telling him your feelings at the present, and then you should be looking to find a resolution for his most recent action. If you would like to discuss other things that he did that hurt your feelings, find a better time to do it because doing it when either one of you are in emotional state is not the best time.
You sound carefree. If this is true, it's important to realize that since your boyfriend is pretty much the opposite of your personality. It will be almost impossible for him to come down to your level of carefree-ness, or for you to come up to his level of controlling-ness. I've dated someone like this in the past, and it may be right for some people, but as a carefree person myself, I always felt trapped or I was walking on eggshells. He also didn't have many friends, because he would always get pissed off if they didn't take his advice. If I accidentally embarrassed him in public, he would stonewall me, sometimes for several hours. I eventually realized that our personalities clashed and he was making me depressed. I'm a needy person, so it was very difficult to break up with my ex, but let me tell you, it was one of the best things I have ever done. I'm now engaged to someone who is just as carefree as I am, and I couldn't be happier.
posted by nikkorizz at 7:57 AM on October 11, 2012
The airplane ticket. It's not explicitly stated, but it sounds like he got embarrassed when your mother confronted him about your visit. He cares a lot about how the world views him and doesn't like to look stupid, regardless if no one else really cares. I mean, your mom doesn't care, right? It was a silly thing to get upset about, at least in your opinion.
Stonewalling: Yeah, this isn't good behavior. Stonewalling doesn't help at all and causes hurt feelings. This just emphasize that your boyfriend likes to keep control of the fight, and will fight only on his terms.
The belittling in front of friends. This is a tactic used to make oneself feel better. After a fight, I'm betting you are both feeling pretty awful, because fights can be pretty draining, right. But he then uses you as a step stool to make himself feel better, and to make himself look like the better half in front of your peers. This is very selfish behavior, and inconsiderate of you at all.
The belittling of your memory. He seems to take it personally that you don't remember certain things. You don't have poor memory, sweetie, trust me, but this guy has drilled it into your head that you do. This is verbal abuse. When someone tells you something enough times, you start to believe it yourself. His refusal to accept that you memory isn't as good as his tells me that me that he's probably taking insult that you don't remember every last thing he says. It's one thing to get upset about it once in a while, especially if it's super important information, but if it's an ongoing thing and he rags on you for little things too, then either he doesn't know how to pick a fit, or he really believes that you should be hanging on to his every single words.
Despite all his misgivings, I also suspect that you are a very sensitive person and may take some things personally.
The plane ticket. Yes, he probably over reacted, but if it incensed you that much, maybe you should take a look why. It sounds like he approached you in a very adult manner and asked you politely let him know in advance next time. You BF isn't always going to ask things that you like to hear, and this isn't worth getting angry over. He isn't as carefree as you, and there's no way you are going to change him to be more carefree, so if you know he gets embarrassed easily, then that's something you need to work with in the future if you want to stay with him Otherwise, this you will always find yourself getting angry when he gets embarrassed over little things.
Off-topic arguments. This one is hard to discern without a little more evidence, but I do want to warn you that, as an emotional person myself, it's very easy to generalize some behavior and tie it to multiple past transgressions, thus making them all appear related. Fights should be about one topic only: how to resolve the problem that caused the fight in the first place. For example, if he does something that makes him appear careless and it hurts your feelings, you shouldn't be bringing up all times when he did something careless in the recent past. In fact, the past shouldn't be brought up at all, as it will cause never-ending fights. You should instead focusing on telling him your feelings at the present, and then you should be looking to find a resolution for his most recent action. If you would like to discuss other things that he did that hurt your feelings, find a better time to do it because doing it when either one of you are in emotional state is not the best time.
You sound carefree. If this is true, it's important to realize that since your boyfriend is pretty much the opposite of your personality. It will be almost impossible for him to come down to your level of carefree-ness, or for you to come up to his level of controlling-ness. I've dated someone like this in the past, and it may be right for some people, but as a carefree person myself, I always felt trapped or I was walking on eggshells. He also didn't have many friends, because he would always get pissed off if they didn't take his advice. If I accidentally embarrassed him in public, he would stonewall me, sometimes for several hours. I eventually realized that our personalities clashed and he was making me depressed. I'm a needy person, so it was very difficult to break up with my ex, but let me tell you, it was one of the best things I have ever done. I'm now engaged to someone who is just as carefree as I am, and I couldn't be happier.
posted by nikkorizz at 7:57 AM on October 11, 2012
Oh, KoiPond, I know exactly what you're going through.
I was convinced for four years that I had a terrible memory by a verbally abusive (now, thankfully ex-) boyfriend who constantly convinced me I didn't "remember" things right. It was all total BS. I have a great memory. I do remember things. But he was inventing this to control me, and it worked for many years. I always felt bad about myself after every interaction, even when he was clearly in the wrong (taking my money, not paying me back; creating scenes in public I had to deal with; etc.) And as you become more independent, it will get worse. Verbal abusers tighten their grip when they feel you are slipping. I was always in for a bad night when I came back from an Al Anon meeting or therapy, because the verbally abusive ex- knew those things were making me stronger and more independent. His response? Making me feel worse about myself through a huge fight.
After a bad breakup, it took me about 14 months to realize the extent of the verbal abuse in the relationship. Reading The Verbally Abusive Relationship was a huge breakthrough for me — it was like reading a script of parts of our relationship. I was shocked how accurate it was. Now that I'm free of his verbal abuse, it's amazing how good I feel about myself these days. I feel happier, smarter, like I have a better memory, more beautiful, more confident and more whole. You can get there too. Please pick up a copy (or download an e-copy ASAP if you can't wait). Get help, comfort and support outside the relationship. And plan an exit that takes into account your dignity and safety.
posted by amoeba at 8:03 AM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]
I was convinced for four years that I had a terrible memory by a verbally abusive (now, thankfully ex-) boyfriend who constantly convinced me I didn't "remember" things right. It was all total BS. I have a great memory. I do remember things. But he was inventing this to control me, and it worked for many years. I always felt bad about myself after every interaction, even when he was clearly in the wrong (taking my money, not paying me back; creating scenes in public I had to deal with; etc.) And as you become more independent, it will get worse. Verbal abusers tighten their grip when they feel you are slipping. I was always in for a bad night when I came back from an Al Anon meeting or therapy, because the verbally abusive ex- knew those things were making me stronger and more independent. His response? Making me feel worse about myself through a huge fight.
After a bad breakup, it took me about 14 months to realize the extent of the verbal abuse in the relationship. Reading The Verbally Abusive Relationship was a huge breakthrough for me — it was like reading a script of parts of our relationship. I was shocked how accurate it was. Now that I'm free of his verbal abuse, it's amazing how good I feel about myself these days. I feel happier, smarter, like I have a better memory, more beautiful, more confident and more whole. You can get there too. Please pick up a copy (or download an e-copy ASAP if you can't wait). Get help, comfort and support outside the relationship. And plan an exit that takes into account your dignity and safety.
posted by amoeba at 8:03 AM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]
I could deal maybe with A B and C. Sometimes things are hard or complicated to talk about. Honey bunny and I have been known to schedule meetings to talk about finances, or vacation arrangements,for example. B and C would depend on context- what youve said doesn't sound like he is very reasonable.
But the rest of your list is pretty awful. Teasing and belittling you in front of others? Ridiculing you for a memory lapse? He should be supportive and helpful with you problems, not hurtful about them.
Yea, you've got a problem, but is not you.
posted by SLC Mom at 8:08 AM on October 11, 2012
But the rest of your list is pretty awful. Teasing and belittling you in front of others? Ridiculing you for a memory lapse? He should be supportive and helpful with you problems, not hurtful about them.
Yea, you've got a problem, but is not you.
posted by SLC Mom at 8:08 AM on October 11, 2012
Like "You remember what we talked about yesterday in the 3 hour conversation that we had? Guess which part I need you to talk about right now. Guess! I can't believe you don't remember. Can you see how hard it is for me when you don't remember what we talked about? It's like you're a blank slate. I feel so alone."
Wow. You really put the sting in the tail of this question.
If this is anywhere close to being a direct quote, he doesn't care if he destroys you to get his way.
And if he's doing that deliberately and self-consciously, he is an evil human being.
However, I think there is a possibility he's largely unaware of the extent of his own malignancy here, but you will certainly need a strong ally to have any chance of dragging it up into the light and giving him an opportunity to overcome it.
A therapist or a pastoral counselor, perhaps, and the latter would be better if he has any kind of faith at all.
posted by jamjam at 8:11 AM on October 11, 2012
Wow. You really put the sting in the tail of this question.
If this is anywhere close to being a direct quote, he doesn't care if he destroys you to get his way.
And if he's doing that deliberately and self-consciously, he is an evil human being.
However, I think there is a possibility he's largely unaware of the extent of his own malignancy here, but you will certainly need a strong ally to have any chance of dragging it up into the light and giving him an opportunity to overcome it.
A therapist or a pastoral counselor, perhaps, and the latter would be better if he has any kind of faith at all.
posted by jamjam at 8:11 AM on October 11, 2012
I think the thing that stands out the most for me (although pretty much all of those examples are terrible) is D. There is no reason for your partner to do things specifically to hurt you. that is the type of thing that bullies and children do. It is unacceptable behavior, and should not be tolerated. If I were in your position, I would call him out on it every single time, saying something like "I don't appreciate that you are saying this just to hurt me". This works especially well in front of other people, since after being called out on something like that, he will be less likely to continue to say such things when there are other people around to judge him.
Definitely get couples counseling. If you want this relationship to last, these things need to get solved quickly. I think almost everything you listed could be resolved, as long as the two of you work on it together.
posted by markblasco at 8:35 AM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
Definitely get couples counseling. If you want this relationship to last, these things need to get solved quickly. I think almost everything you listed could be resolved, as long as the two of you work on it together.
posted by markblasco at 8:35 AM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
Sounds to me like he got together with a nice passive partner three years ago, but as you've grown more confident and independent he's needing to feel like he exerts control over you, so he's taking every point he can find to grab an ounce of power from you.
This kind of guy is not the right partner for a confident woman. Move on before he gets you to start believing you're as feeble as he wants you to be.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 8:38 AM on October 11, 2012
This kind of guy is not the right partner for a confident woman. Move on before he gets you to start believing you're as feeble as he wants you to be.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 8:38 AM on October 11, 2012
My boyfriend does some of these things too. Here are some of my thoughts:
B: I had a situation just like this. He asked me to consult with him next time before I made plans. He consults with me before he makes these sorts of plans, so I thought his request was fair. I said, ok, I will -- even though I know that he often changes plans on me and doesn't follow through and has a bunch of other annoying behaviors related to plans.
C: He also stonewalls me in this way. It's a pain to get through to him. Negotiations that would be easy with most other people have more emotion than I think they should. But he seems to respond to my concerns on his own timetable after thinking about them. So I'll bring up concern A. He'll blast me with defensiveness. It will feel shitty. Then, two weeks later, he'll say, yeah, let's do x to address concern A.
E: My bf doesn't do this, specifically. But he has told me to stop talking because I was overwhelming him (although I didn't think I was doing anything aggressive, and have talked with other people that way and been fine). We have to wait until *he* feels okay, before continuing.
F: It seems that declaring certain remarks "off-topic" is his way of getting to say what the topic of conversation is, which is what is in his head. So, if you're discussing doing the dishes, and your topic is "housework" and his topic is "things that happen in the kitchen", he will insist you structure your conversation around *his* topic. This happens in my relationship too. I have to discuss his topic first (the kitchen) and then later bring up my topic. It's kind of annoying, but it works if I accommodate myself.
My bf doesn't do any of the "belittling me in front of other people" behaviors at all. He doesn't impugn my memory. (He actually does the opposite -- claims that he has a terrible memory and that's why he can't remember certain things. But I think it's more that he gets off balance easily and can't access his memories and is used to that as an excuse.) I know what that's like, though, my abusive mother always used to claim that I had remembered things incorrectly as a child.
So, I think what you've got here is a controlling, self-centered, somewhat immature person who has to have his way to feel comfortable. He has to get what he needs first (at least in certain situations) before you get what you need. It's kind of crappy.
In my situation, if I help him feel safe and am patient with his defensiveness, but insist on what I want, things do get better. It's a huge hassle compared to dealing with a "normal" person, but there are a lot of things I like about him, so I'm sticking with it to see how things go. He's like this with other people too, so it's not just me.
The situation has gotten better over time, not worse. As I've gotten more sensitive to what will set him off, to appreciating the good things about him, and to insisting on getting what I need, he seems to respond. He also seems to have adjusted to me, encouraging me to tell him when things are bothering me, thinking about what I want and doing it (a la C, above). His walls seem to be lowering over time, as he seems to trust that I'm not going to take advantage of him if he lets go of some of his control.
I was in a very abusive relationship when I was a teenager and grew up with abusive parents, so this sort of stuff feels pretty mild to me. I've read all the books (The Verbally Abusive Relationship, etc.) and recommend them highly to help you understand what's going on. I am no longer in contact with my parents or that abusive ex, so I have a lot of perspective on abuse and I know what it's like to get free of it. This is the best relationship I've ever been in, but I've been in a lot of bad situations, so I'm not sure what to make of that.
I have a lot of questions about how to make things better, and my relationship may not be the model you want to follow.
TL;DR:
This is not your problem. It's not all in your head. These are a lot of shitty behaviors and it sucks. He sounds immature, controlling, and not terribly self-aware. That said, if he's open to counseling and seeing other perspectives, things might get better.
Most importantly, take care of yourself.
posted by 3491again at 9:19 AM on October 11, 2012
B: I had a situation just like this. He asked me to consult with him next time before I made plans. He consults with me before he makes these sorts of plans, so I thought his request was fair. I said, ok, I will -- even though I know that he often changes plans on me and doesn't follow through and has a bunch of other annoying behaviors related to plans.
C: He also stonewalls me in this way. It's a pain to get through to him. Negotiations that would be easy with most other people have more emotion than I think they should. But he seems to respond to my concerns on his own timetable after thinking about them. So I'll bring up concern A. He'll blast me with defensiveness. It will feel shitty. Then, two weeks later, he'll say, yeah, let's do x to address concern A.
E: My bf doesn't do this, specifically. But he has told me to stop talking because I was overwhelming him (although I didn't think I was doing anything aggressive, and have talked with other people that way and been fine). We have to wait until *he* feels okay, before continuing.
F: It seems that declaring certain remarks "off-topic" is his way of getting to say what the topic of conversation is, which is what is in his head. So, if you're discussing doing the dishes, and your topic is "housework" and his topic is "things that happen in the kitchen", he will insist you structure your conversation around *his* topic. This happens in my relationship too. I have to discuss his topic first (the kitchen) and then later bring up my topic. It's kind of annoying, but it works if I accommodate myself.
My bf doesn't do any of the "belittling me in front of other people" behaviors at all. He doesn't impugn my memory. (He actually does the opposite -- claims that he has a terrible memory and that's why he can't remember certain things. But I think it's more that he gets off balance easily and can't access his memories and is used to that as an excuse.) I know what that's like, though, my abusive mother always used to claim that I had remembered things incorrectly as a child.
So, I think what you've got here is a controlling, self-centered, somewhat immature person who has to have his way to feel comfortable. He has to get what he needs first (at least in certain situations) before you get what you need. It's kind of crappy.
In my situation, if I help him feel safe and am patient with his defensiveness, but insist on what I want, things do get better. It's a huge hassle compared to dealing with a "normal" person, but there are a lot of things I like about him, so I'm sticking with it to see how things go. He's like this with other people too, so it's not just me.
The situation has gotten better over time, not worse. As I've gotten more sensitive to what will set him off, to appreciating the good things about him, and to insisting on getting what I need, he seems to respond. He also seems to have adjusted to me, encouraging me to tell him when things are bothering me, thinking about what I want and doing it (a la C, above). His walls seem to be lowering over time, as he seems to trust that I'm not going to take advantage of him if he lets go of some of his control.
I was in a very abusive relationship when I was a teenager and grew up with abusive parents, so this sort of stuff feels pretty mild to me. I've read all the books (The Verbally Abusive Relationship, etc.) and recommend them highly to help you understand what's going on. I am no longer in contact with my parents or that abusive ex, so I have a lot of perspective on abuse and I know what it's like to get free of it. This is the best relationship I've ever been in, but I've been in a lot of bad situations, so I'm not sure what to make of that.
I have a lot of questions about how to make things better, and my relationship may not be the model you want to follow.
TL;DR:
This is not your problem. It's not all in your head. These are a lot of shitty behaviors and it sucks. He sounds immature, controlling, and not terribly self-aware. That said, if he's open to counseling and seeing other perspectives, things might get better.
Most importantly, take care of yourself.
posted by 3491again at 9:19 AM on October 11, 2012
Have you brought these things up with him? How does he react? Does he get that this stuff is Not Good? I'd he's willing to work on these things then it might be worth it, assuming he really puts in the work necessary.
That said, a lot of these behaviors sounded to me like he's not very good at task switching. I can have this problem where even when my boyfriend and I have made up, it still takes me a day our so to not be mad at him, irrational as that may be. A, E, and F also point that way. Maybe it might help to sort of lay out an agenda of sorts so that he can mentally prepare for what's coming. Not that this is your responsibility to fix and if this is what he needs he should be asking for it. But maybe this would be worth suggesting to him when you're brainstorming new communication strategies
posted by matildatakesovertheworld at 10:15 AM on October 11, 2012
That said, a lot of these behaviors sounded to me like he's not very good at task switching. I can have this problem where even when my boyfriend and I have made up, it still takes me a day our so to not be mad at him, irrational as that may be. A, E, and F also point that way. Maybe it might help to sort of lay out an agenda of sorts so that he can mentally prepare for what's coming. Not that this is your responsibility to fix and if this is what he needs he should be asking for it. But maybe this would be worth suggesting to him when you're brainstorming new communication strategies
posted by matildatakesovertheworld at 10:15 AM on October 11, 2012
In addition to the The Verbally Abusive Relationship, I suggest you read Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men and see if it resonates. Now is the time to get a handle on what's going on, because the self-doubt that you are feeling (is it me? am I crazy?) is going to grow the longer you stay.
posted by Wordwoman at 10:36 AM on October 11, 2012
posted by Wordwoman at 10:36 AM on October 11, 2012
Ick. I could never, ever, ever tolerate these behaviors (even coupled with George Clooney looks and Jon Stewart's sense of humor).
The question is: can you tolerate it? Sounds like the answer is no. DTMFA!!!
posted by murfed13 at 11:25 AM on October 11, 2012
The question is: can you tolerate it? Sounds like the answer is no. DTMFA!!!
posted by murfed13 at 11:25 AM on October 11, 2012
Response by poster: As a responder pointed out, A resulted from the embarrassment he felt because he didn't know that I had made firm plans for the trip I (alone) was taking out of town. We don't have children. It didn't disrupt his schedule. He need to be seen as competent and in control of what's going on. He need to make a needlessly broad request to keep him informed because the real problem is ME, not his sensitivity to how he appears to others. I'm the one that needs to change.
More about him: He is a high functioning alcoholic who drinks excessively most nights and is at best absent and at worse angry and mean and argumentative with me. Everyone who knows him thinks he is the sweetest thing, but the truth is that know one knows him at all really, just the veneer. As I have improved myself, the idea has arisen in my head that I too know only the veneer and I feel sad and lonely. He had childhood trauma, but it is buried deep deep deep, in my opinion. His alcoholism, apathy, and lack of friends are all deemed my fault, all things I have done to him. He is deeply drawn to caretaking behavior.
More about me: I suffered much abuse as a child and grew up playing a sort of victim role, not believing I was capable of taking care of myself. I suffered from PTSD and difficulty controlling my feelings and asking for what I needed. At times, in this relationship, I have been no picnic because of my personal struggle, but I have always strived for knowing myself better and for greater happiness and something better in the future. I have been emotionally honest and always willing to learn and improve and seek out whatever resources I needed to help me do so. I now find myself in a surprisingly and wonderfully relaxed and clear place.
I hate getting into an argument with him because it seems like the only way to have "resolution" is for me to end up in guilty, repentent, apologetic place. Grateful, even. If I begin with having a problem with his behavior, it often gets turned around into something I'm doing wrong. It seems like he meets my attempts to just end a conversation, prior to "resolution" really resistantly. I feel like arguments are a black hole that I sure don't want to fall down. I just end up feeling fucked around, honestly. And it's hard to put a finger on how it happens exactly.
posted by KoiPond at 12:04 PM on October 11, 2012
More about him: He is a high functioning alcoholic who drinks excessively most nights and is at best absent and at worse angry and mean and argumentative with me. Everyone who knows him thinks he is the sweetest thing, but the truth is that know one knows him at all really, just the veneer. As I have improved myself, the idea has arisen in my head that I too know only the veneer and I feel sad and lonely. He had childhood trauma, but it is buried deep deep deep, in my opinion. His alcoholism, apathy, and lack of friends are all deemed my fault, all things I have done to him. He is deeply drawn to caretaking behavior.
More about me: I suffered much abuse as a child and grew up playing a sort of victim role, not believing I was capable of taking care of myself. I suffered from PTSD and difficulty controlling my feelings and asking for what I needed. At times, in this relationship, I have been no picnic because of my personal struggle, but I have always strived for knowing myself better and for greater happiness and something better in the future. I have been emotionally honest and always willing to learn and improve and seek out whatever resources I needed to help me do so. I now find myself in a surprisingly and wonderfully relaxed and clear place.
I hate getting into an argument with him because it seems like the only way to have "resolution" is for me to end up in guilty, repentent, apologetic place. Grateful, even. If I begin with having a problem with his behavior, it often gets turned around into something I'm doing wrong. It seems like he meets my attempts to just end a conversation, prior to "resolution" really resistantly. I feel like arguments are a black hole that I sure don't want to fall down. I just end up feeling fucked around, honestly. And it's hard to put a finger on how it happens exactly.
posted by KoiPond at 12:04 PM on October 11, 2012
Response by poster: He doesn't tolerate discussions about what might be going on with him. They become discussions about proving me wrong.
posted by KoiPond at 12:10 PM on October 11, 2012
posted by KoiPond at 12:10 PM on October 11, 2012
Honest question
Why is this worth it?
Because you have problems too?
Because his being an asshole is really just him being an alcoholic?
I just don't see it. There are just so many fucking people.
Even if only 00.13% of all people could love and be loved by you? that's still about a million people.
posted by French Fry at 12:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]
Why is this worth it?
Because you have problems too?
Because his being an asshole is really just him being an alcoholic?
I just don't see it. There are just so many fucking people.
Even if only 00.13% of all people could love and be loved by you? that's still about a million people.
posted by French Fry at 12:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]
Don't you think a few people out of that million might treat you better than this?
posted by French Fry at 12:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by French Fry at 12:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
Wow, way to bury the lede with the alcoholism, there.
Look, this guy is a jerk. It doesn't matter why he's a jerk, but he is one. He will only become more of a jerk. People can recover from being jerks, but the process is purely internal. If you stay with him, you'll just be gambling that he chooses to change, and that once he does, he still wants to be with you. That's not a relationship. There is no mutuality there. Dump him.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 12:47 PM on October 11, 2012
Look, this guy is a jerk. It doesn't matter why he's a jerk, but he is one. He will only become more of a jerk. People can recover from being jerks, but the process is purely internal. If you stay with him, you'll just be gambling that he chooses to change, and that once he does, he still wants to be with you. That's not a relationship. There is no mutuality there. Dump him.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 12:47 PM on October 11, 2012
More about him: He is a high functioning alcoholic who drinks excessively most nights and is at best absent and at worse angry and mean and argumentative with me. Everyone who knows him thinks he is the sweetest thing, but the truth is that know one knows him at all really, just the veneer. As I have improved myself, the idea has arisen in my head that I too know only the veneer and I feel sad and lonely. He had childhood trauma, but it is buried deep deep deep, in my opinion. His alcoholism, apathy, and lack of friends are all deemed my fault, all things I have done to him. He is deeply drawn to caretaking behavior.
What? What possible reason could you have for staying in this relationship?
posted by Ragged Richard at 12:53 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
What? What possible reason could you have for staying in this relationship?
posted by Ragged Richard at 12:53 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
He doesn't tolerate discussions about what might be going on with him. They become discussions about proving me wrong.
KoiPond, I'm so sorry. The real issue here is him, and his disease, and all the awful things that are impacting you because he will not deal with his alcoholism and anger. You cannot fix him. You cannot do anything to change him in this situation. (Also, he has very little incentive to change right now while you're with him and loving him.) Right now, all you are doing is absorbing his abuse and pain. That's not a relationship — that's an emotional punching bag. You don't have to take it. You deserve to have your life and emotional health back. Consider leaving. Consider the steps you would need to take to do so. Please know that on the other side of this kind of mess there is so much peace and genuine love waiting for you.
posted by amoeba at 12:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
KoiPond, I'm so sorry. The real issue here is him, and his disease, and all the awful things that are impacting you because he will not deal with his alcoholism and anger. You cannot fix him. You cannot do anything to change him in this situation. (Also, he has very little incentive to change right now while you're with him and loving him.) Right now, all you are doing is absorbing his abuse and pain. That's not a relationship — that's an emotional punching bag. You don't have to take it. You deserve to have your life and emotional health back. Consider leaving. Consider the steps you would need to take to do so. Please know that on the other side of this kind of mess there is so much peace and genuine love waiting for you.
posted by amoeba at 12:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
One other thing. I don't know if I recommend this exactly, but I'm glad I did it. Arguing with an alcoholic can make you crazy. One day, I downloaded a recording app on my iPhone and began recording when a bad night would start (he was always too drunk to notice that I turned it on). It did a lot for my sanity to know there was an objective record of what was happening — and that I wasn't "alone" but the recorder was there with me, like a witness or a friend. I recorded probably 30 hours of his yelling over time, and only had the stomach to listen to one of the recordings, about a year after we broke up. It was completely shocking to hear: on that recording my voice was very small, very weak and very apologetic. I sounded like an abused woman. I was definitely being manipulated big time, but did not have the objectivity to see it.
That little recording app was a lifeline for me when I was stuck in a bad place.
posted by amoeba at 1:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]
That little recording app was a lifeline for me when I was stuck in a bad place.
posted by amoeba at 1:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]
Wow. The alcoholism part is VERY important. It makes it easier for you to put a finger on what is going on. As part of therapy, give him an ultimatum about drinking. If he doesn't do it, DTMFA.
posted by 3491again at 2:03 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by 3491again at 2:03 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
For a while in the 80s, there was a sort of fad where people would try to connect almost any relationship issue to the problem of co-dependency. But, uh, this situation does resemble the paradigmatic case.
posted by Monsieur Caution at 2:09 PM on October 11, 2012
posted by Monsieur Caution at 2:09 PM on October 11, 2012
Millions -- literally millions -- of men will never, ever treat a partner this way. What you are experiencing is NOT some version of how all relationships are. You have every right to expect to be treated differently in a relationship, but I don't think you have much reason to believe that this man will ever be the one to do it.
Instead of couples counseling, I would suggest individual therapy focused on further developing your sense of self-worth and autonomy, so that you can define more explicitly what positive, healthy elements you would like to have in your life and the steps you can take to make those things happen -- whether you are single or in a relationship.
posted by scody at 3:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]
Instead of couples counseling, I would suggest individual therapy focused on further developing your sense of self-worth and autonomy, so that you can define more explicitly what positive, healthy elements you would like to have in your life and the steps you can take to make those things happen -- whether you are single or in a relationship.
posted by scody at 3:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]
Okay. Based upon your update I am nullifying everything I wrote previously.
Get out. Leave. Run away. Start your life over. Stay with friends. Do whatever you need to do to get out of this situation. This is a metric ton of bad news. This is an unhealthy relationship with an unhealthy (mentally, emotionally, and probably physically from the alcohol) person who is in no state to be in an adult relationship. In his current state it isn't that he isn't able to be in a relationship WITH YOU, he just isn't able to be in ANY relationship.
Take the emotion out and your feelings out and reassess your situation as an outsider. Think really clearly about and honestly about what is going on. Don't justify or rationalize things. Just think about the facts.
You need to ask yourself a few key questions.
1. if nothing changed in your relationship, would you be okay with that? Could you live this way forever?
2. Would you ever wish to raise a family with this man, in this environment? (note: only pertinent if you hope to have kids)
3. Is this a relationship you'd be okay with modelling to your children? Is this an example of a relationship you'd want them to emulate? (again only pertinent if you hope to have kids)
4. Do you think his behaviour and treatment of you is going to get better or worse over time? How does that make you feel?
5. If your best girlfriend/close family member was in this relationship and describing everything you are describing, would you suggest they stay or leave? Would you fear for them?
If I were you, I'll tell you what my answers would be.
1. Hell no
2. Hell no
3. Hell no
4. I believe it will get worse and it makes me terrified.
5. I'd tell her to leave and I would absolutely fear for them.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 3:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]
Get out. Leave. Run away. Start your life over. Stay with friends. Do whatever you need to do to get out of this situation. This is a metric ton of bad news. This is an unhealthy relationship with an unhealthy (mentally, emotionally, and probably physically from the alcohol) person who is in no state to be in an adult relationship. In his current state it isn't that he isn't able to be in a relationship WITH YOU, he just isn't able to be in ANY relationship.
Take the emotion out and your feelings out and reassess your situation as an outsider. Think really clearly about and honestly about what is going on. Don't justify or rationalize things. Just think about the facts.
You need to ask yourself a few key questions.
1. if nothing changed in your relationship, would you be okay with that? Could you live this way forever?
2. Would you ever wish to raise a family with this man, in this environment? (note: only pertinent if you hope to have kids)
3. Is this a relationship you'd be okay with modelling to your children? Is this an example of a relationship you'd want them to emulate? (again only pertinent if you hope to have kids)
4. Do you think his behaviour and treatment of you is going to get better or worse over time? How does that make you feel?
5. If your best girlfriend/close family member was in this relationship and describing everything you are describing, would you suggest they stay or leave? Would you fear for them?
If I were you, I'll tell you what my answers would be.
1. Hell no
2. Hell no
3. Hell no
4. I believe it will get worse and it makes me terrified.
5. I'd tell her to leave and I would absolutely fear for them.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 3:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Ok, reading The Verbally Abusive Relationship, and there we are, the both of us, abused and abuser. Good book. Very illuminating.
posted by KoiPond at 9:03 PM on October 11, 2012
posted by KoiPond at 9:03 PM on October 11, 2012
Do not let him know you are reading it. If you do, expect for him to start arguing that the abusive one is you.
posted by Wordwoman at 9:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by Wordwoman at 9:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]
Even before the information on his alcoholism, I noted this:
He seems to have gotten worse as I've gotten more independent. I have seen an individual therapist, which has been most helpful to me.
I'm going to tell you right now honey, you've got two choices: leave, become a strong, whole, and independent woman, or give up, stay with the drunk, and watch him become more sour and more controlling and vicious in his behavior to you.
The more you take up the reins and act independently, the more he's going to fight you to remain in control--and obviously he fights dirty. Everyone has their own issues to deal with, and you sound aware of what yours are/have been in the relationship. You are working on your life to allow yourself to grown and rise above those issues--he is not. Instead, he's working to tear down your independence and manipulating you into being in a guilty, repentant, apologetic place, and feeling grateful to him for putting you there!! Not healthy, sister. DTMFA
posted by BlueHorse at 10:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
He seems to have gotten worse as I've gotten more independent. I have seen an individual therapist, which has been most helpful to me.
I'm going to tell you right now honey, you've got two choices: leave, become a strong, whole, and independent woman, or give up, stay with the drunk, and watch him become more sour and more controlling and vicious in his behavior to you.
The more you take up the reins and act independently, the more he's going to fight you to remain in control--and obviously he fights dirty. Everyone has their own issues to deal with, and you sound aware of what yours are/have been in the relationship. You are working on your life to allow yourself to grown and rise above those issues--he is not. Instead, he's working to tear down your independence and manipulating you into being in a guilty, repentant, apologetic place, and feeling grateful to him for putting you there!! Not healthy, sister. DTMFA
posted by BlueHorse at 10:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I think individual counseling for you is a must, even if you break up with him today.
posted by SMPA at 9:42 PM on October 10, 2012 [2 favorites]