I'll take a jar of peanuts and a 45 automatic. I brought my own bag.
July 20, 2012 3:16 PM Subscribe
Can one really walk into a gun store in some states and just buy a gun?
I have always lived in states with strict gun laws. Are there states where one can just buy a gun, no questions asked? Isn't there some federal law that trumps state laws? I looked at the Bradey Campaign scorecard and read summaries of of the weakest and strongest gun laws in the US. I wonder if I am missing something.
(I don't want a gun, I am just interested in the law. I have no problem with the Supreme Court's interpretation of the 2nd Amendment or state's rights to control guns. I prefer to not be hectored about the evils or wonderfulnesses of guns.)
I have always lived in states with strict gun laws. Are there states where one can just buy a gun, no questions asked? Isn't there some federal law that trumps state laws? I looked at the Bradey Campaign scorecard and read summaries of of the weakest and strongest gun laws in the US. I wonder if I am missing something.
(I don't want a gun, I am just interested in the law. I have no problem with the Supreme Court's interpretation of the 2nd Amendment or state's rights to control guns. I prefer to not be hectored about the evils or wonderfulnesses of guns.)
Here's how it goes in Texas, where I live.
However, that's at a gun shop or buying from a federally licensed dealer. Person-to-person sales are not required to run a background check or maintain records of who they sold to, so long as they don't have reason to believe they're selling to a felon. Federally speaking, anyway, all the states have different laws.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 3:35 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]
However, that's at a gun shop or buying from a federally licensed dealer. Person-to-person sales are not required to run a background check or maintain records of who they sold to, so long as they don't have reason to believe they're selling to a felon. Federally speaking, anyway, all the states have different laws.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 3:35 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]
No questions asked? Not quite, but I can walk into a store here in Georgia and walk out with pretty much any gun I want. I'll have to show my driver's license for the federally mandated instant background check, but from what I understand it is a pretty quick and painless process.
posted by deadmessenger at 3:42 PM on July 20, 2012
posted by deadmessenger at 3:42 PM on July 20, 2012
Yes you can just walk in and buy a gun - there's no universal mandatory waiting period for every kind of weapon. No, you can't just get a gun, legally, from a store, without questions.
But, it's a little bit harder in some ways and a little bit easier in other ways, than most people tend to portray it. Amongst other things, relatively few places actually sell guns (though you can generally get both peanuts and guns at some Wal-Marts and similar big-box stores, as well as at Gander Mountain.) It's about twice as challenging as getting real Sudafed, these days - lots more places sell Sudafed, and you don't have to have your background checked (just your name written in a log that might be checked later.)
The NRA has state-by-state profiles you may find educational, since their profiles are written in terms of "watch out, follow these rules when you go here" instead of grading the states.
Also: getting a gun while incapacitated (adjudicated incompetent, a convicted felon) is often as much of a crime as it is to sell one to someone who's incapacitated. I'm pretty sure in my state it's illegal to know you're an alcoholic and buy a gun, though I can't quite figure out how you'd manage to get in legal trouble for it without committing some other crime first.
(To put it another way: convicted criminals and those trying to avoid getting attention generally have sufficient incentive to avoid getting their guns through anything resembling normal commercial channels.)
posted by SMPA at 3:46 PM on July 20, 2012
But, it's a little bit harder in some ways and a little bit easier in other ways, than most people tend to portray it. Amongst other things, relatively few places actually sell guns (though you can generally get both peanuts and guns at some Wal-Marts and similar big-box stores, as well as at Gander Mountain.) It's about twice as challenging as getting real Sudafed, these days - lots more places sell Sudafed, and you don't have to have your background checked (just your name written in a log that might be checked later.)
The NRA has state-by-state profiles you may find educational, since their profiles are written in terms of "watch out, follow these rules when you go here" instead of grading the states.
Also: getting a gun while incapacitated (adjudicated incompetent, a convicted felon) is often as much of a crime as it is to sell one to someone who's incapacitated. I'm pretty sure in my state it's illegal to know you're an alcoholic and buy a gun, though I can't quite figure out how you'd manage to get in legal trouble for it without committing some other crime first.
(To put it another way: convicted criminals and those trying to avoid getting attention generally have sufficient incentive to avoid getting their guns through anything resembling normal commercial channels.)
posted by SMPA at 3:46 PM on July 20, 2012
Yes, you can buy weapons without a background check. Just go to a gun show in the state of Washington:
Police have said guns, not gangs, are responsible for the crimes. Fascitelli blames Washington gun laws which he says are "terrible, the worst in the country."
People who buy guns through licensed dealers in Washington have to go through background checks and a five-day waiting period. The dealer is also required to keep complete records on gun sales. He says that doesn't happen at most gun shows every weekend in this state and around the country...
Washington has weak gun laws that help feed the illegal gun market, allow the sale of guns without background checks and allow the sale of military-style assault weapons, according to the Brady Campaign.
They call that the "gun show loophole" which has been closed by legislation in Oregon and California, but not here.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:28 PM on July 20, 2012
Police have said guns, not gangs, are responsible for the crimes. Fascitelli blames Washington gun laws which he says are "terrible, the worst in the country."
People who buy guns through licensed dealers in Washington have to go through background checks and a five-day waiting period. The dealer is also required to keep complete records on gun sales. He says that doesn't happen at most gun shows every weekend in this state and around the country...
Washington has weak gun laws that help feed the illegal gun market, allow the sale of guns without background checks and allow the sale of military-style assault weapons, according to the Brady Campaign.
They call that the "gun show loophole" which has been closed by legislation in Oregon and California, but not here.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:28 PM on July 20, 2012
Mod note: Folks, this is a very straightforward question. Please do not politicize it.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 4:30 PM on July 20, 2012
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 4:30 PM on July 20, 2012
Buying a Gun at Walmart. Note that Walmart does not sell handguns but if they did, and you had a concealed carry permit, the process would be the same: walk in, complete paperwork, walk out.
PS: Since Florida is a shall issue state, that's umm... pretty much all handgun owners.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:33 PM on July 20, 2012
PS: Since Florida is a shall issue state, that's umm... pretty much all handgun owners.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:33 PM on July 20, 2012
The link above to the process in Texas is about the same as here. You can download the ATF 4473 form here, if you want to look at what questions you would need to answer. It's never taken more than a couple of minutes in my experience to get the clearance -- this is not a deep background check or anything like that.
So assuming you have a drivers license, you fill out the form correctly, and your background is clean enough to pass the check, you should be able to buy a rifle or shotgun in about 15 or 20 minutes, counting the time it takes to swipe your credit card. Faster than getting a prescription filled, but slower than buying a car.
Some states have waiting periods for handguns (but it wouldn't surprise me if one or two had waiting periods for long guns, too); often you can bypass the waiting period if you have a concealed carry permit. How much effort it takes to get a concealed carry permit varies significantly by state, from almost nothing (fill out a form, write a check, and get a background check) to requiring classes, tests, and references.
But as said above, this all assumes you are buying a gun from a store. My local paper has classified ads with people selling guns every day of the week, and you could pay cash for one of those with no paperwork and no oversight at all, perfectly legally (assuming you were legal to own guns, of course).
posted by Forktine at 4:34 PM on July 20, 2012
So assuming you have a drivers license, you fill out the form correctly, and your background is clean enough to pass the check, you should be able to buy a rifle or shotgun in about 15 or 20 minutes, counting the time it takes to swipe your credit card. Faster than getting a prescription filled, but slower than buying a car.
Some states have waiting periods for handguns (but it wouldn't surprise me if one or two had waiting periods for long guns, too); often you can bypass the waiting period if you have a concealed carry permit. How much effort it takes to get a concealed carry permit varies significantly by state, from almost nothing (fill out a form, write a check, and get a background check) to requiring classes, tests, and references.
But as said above, this all assumes you are buying a gun from a store. My local paper has classified ads with people selling guns every day of the week, and you could pay cash for one of those with no paperwork and no oversight at all, perfectly legally (assuming you were legal to own guns, of course).
posted by Forktine at 4:34 PM on July 20, 2012
Definitely state by state. In California, there is a 10 day waiting period for all guns (handguns and long guns). In addition, you need a "Handgun Safety Certificate" (like the written portion of a drivers test, plus a $25 fee) to buy handguns.
Federal law, as mentioned above, really only requires the (now instant) background check.
posted by wildcrdj at 4:48 PM on July 20, 2012
Federal law, as mentioned above, really only requires the (now instant) background check.
posted by wildcrdj at 4:48 PM on July 20, 2012
There's no state where you can buy a gun, no questions asked. However, the federal background check can be very swift, and so may give the illusion of no questions. People may not even be aware that it's happening at the time.
posted by corb at 4:52 PM on July 20, 2012
posted by corb at 4:52 PM on July 20, 2012
Also in California you can't just sell a gun to another individual. You have to go through a FFL (Federal Firearms License) dealer, basically a gun shop or a person who has done a bunch of paperwork with the ATF.
In other states this is not true. The federal requirement is simply "A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law"
posted by wildcrdj at 4:52 PM on July 20, 2012
In other states this is not true. The federal requirement is simply "A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law"
posted by wildcrdj at 4:52 PM on July 20, 2012
For in-state transfers of firearms from a Federal Firearms License holder to an individual, at a minimum the National Instant Criminal Background Check (NICS check) is performed. Some states also have varying additional restrictions, e.g., state license requirements or waiting periods.
the real problem is that you can get a gun in an lasy state top bring to a tough state.
It's not that simple to purchase firearms out of state (in a state that isn't the purchasers residence). There is already federal law (18 USC 922) that specifies how inter-state transfers of firearms may occur.
All handgun transfers (from out of state) must go through a Federal Firearms License holder in the buyer's home state. In this case, the selling (out of state) dealer would ship the handgun to the FFL holder in the buyer's home state, and that second dealer would perform the required background checks:
18 USC 922 (3): for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
Long gun (most shotgun and rifles) transfers can be completed out of state, but are required to comply with the state laws of the seller's and purchaser's home states. So, e.g., it is unlawful to bypass the Illinois FOID requirements by buying a gun in a different state. This is, in part, the "(b)(3)" exception from 18 USC 922(3), above:
18 USC 922(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
[...]
(2) any firearm to any person in any State where the purchase or possession by such person of such firearm would be in violation of any State law or any published ordinance applicable at the place of sale, delivery or other disposition, unless the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe that the purchase or possession would not be in violation of such State law or such published ordinance;
(3): any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
Face to face transfers, where permitted by state law, may only occur between residents of the same state (because interstate transfer of firearms must go through an FFL).
Note also that the law is not limited to commercial transactions; the law applies to any transfer (e.g., a gift between family members who live in different states).
The "gun show loophole" refers to individuals (who are not Federal Firearms License holders) setting up tables and selling their personally owned firearms via face-to-face transfers to other residents of the same state, in states where this is legal to do. If those individuals are, in fact, operating a business of dealing in firearms, then they are in violation of the law. Most gun shows with which I'm familiar (in the state of Washington, which was cited in a prior comment) already require all face to face transfers to go through a background check as a condition of attendance at the show, and this has been true for some time. This is a requirement of the gun show organizers, not Washington state law.
There is a great deal more in this section of the federal law; the entire 18 USC 922 is available here.
I have also ignored the additional restrictions on Title 2 firearms, which includes destructive devices, short barreled rifles and shotguns, machine guns, and a few other categories. Those all have much more stringent transfer requirements than Title 1 ("regular") firearms.
posted by doorsnake at 4:55 PM on July 20, 2012
the real problem is that you can get a gun in an lasy state top bring to a tough state.
It's not that simple to purchase firearms out of state (in a state that isn't the purchasers residence). There is already federal law (18 USC 922) that specifies how inter-state transfers of firearms may occur.
All handgun transfers (from out of state) must go through a Federal Firearms License holder in the buyer's home state. In this case, the selling (out of state) dealer would ship the handgun to the FFL holder in the buyer's home state, and that second dealer would perform the required background checks:
18 USC 922 (3): for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
Long gun (most shotgun and rifles) transfers can be completed out of state, but are required to comply with the state laws of the seller's and purchaser's home states. So, e.g., it is unlawful to bypass the Illinois FOID requirements by buying a gun in a different state. This is, in part, the "(b)(3)" exception from 18 USC 922(3), above:
18 USC 922(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
[...]
(2) any firearm to any person in any State where the purchase or possession by such person of such firearm would be in violation of any State law or any published ordinance applicable at the place of sale, delivery or other disposition, unless the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe that the purchase or possession would not be in violation of such State law or such published ordinance;
(3): any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
Face to face transfers, where permitted by state law, may only occur between residents of the same state (because interstate transfer of firearms must go through an FFL).
Note also that the law is not limited to commercial transactions; the law applies to any transfer (e.g., a gift between family members who live in different states).
The "gun show loophole" refers to individuals (who are not Federal Firearms License holders) setting up tables and selling their personally owned firearms via face-to-face transfers to other residents of the same state, in states where this is legal to do. If those individuals are, in fact, operating a business of dealing in firearms, then they are in violation of the law. Most gun shows with which I'm familiar (in the state of Washington, which was cited in a prior comment) already require all face to face transfers to go through a background check as a condition of attendance at the show, and this has been true for some time. This is a requirement of the gun show organizers, not Washington state law.
There is a great deal more in this section of the federal law; the entire 18 USC 922 is available here.
I have also ignored the additional restrictions on Title 2 firearms, which includes destructive devices, short barreled rifles and shotguns, machine guns, and a few other categories. Those all have much more stringent transfer requirements than Title 1 ("regular") firearms.
posted by doorsnake at 4:55 PM on July 20, 2012
Here's an interesting series of articles that illustrates the absurdity at the other end of the scale - where it takes a huge amount of effort to purchase a firearm.
posted by blaneyphoto at 6:37 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by blaneyphoto at 6:37 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]
To expand a little on deadmessenger's answer concerning Georgia, you don't even have to wait for the "instant" federal background check (instant is in quotes because the last time I bought a gun the computers were down and it took a day or so) if you have a concealed carry permit. Getting takes a few days and requires a background check but is not too hard. Here is the process in my county. Although it is a state permit, it is administered at the county level.
posted by TedW at 3:41 AM on July 21, 2012
posted by TedW at 3:41 AM on July 21, 2012
Ohio is like this. When I bought my gun, I walked into the store, they ran a background check to make sure I didn't have any criminal or medical history preventing me from owning one, I handed over the $ and walked out with the gun and ammo.
posted by Autumn at 8:15 AM on July 21, 2012
posted by Autumn at 8:15 AM on July 21, 2012
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In Colorado, there is no waiting period, no registration requirement, and no license requirement. That's just the first state on the list, and the state that's in the news at the moment. So, yes, as far as I can tell, you could just walk in to a store and buy a gun.
posted by cilantro at 3:23 PM on July 20, 2012