Human training.
June 27, 2012 2:26 PM Subscribe
My puppy has gamed a way for me to spend an extra 5 minutes with him in the morning. By peeing on the floor.
My new puppy, Truman, (border terrier, ~10.5 weeks) is totally freaking awesome. My breeder had him litter box trained by the time I got him (a little over a week ago), and so far things have been going splendidly. He's adjusted to his new home extremely well, is already sitting on command, responding to his name, and walking on a leash like a champ. Smart little guy. Maybe too smart.
The one hitch has been this little bathroom thing. He's really good about going in his litter box--had a few mishaps early on, but has gotten the hang of it now. We go on walks outside, too, but he prefers his box and will actually hold it until we get home just so he can poop where he's comfortable. Can't blame the guy.
His setup when I'm gone at work for the day is a crate attached to an x-pen with his water bowl, a blanket, a few indestructible toys, and his litter box. This was recommended by the breeder and works great. He's got plenty of room, doesn't seem to be distressed or unhappy by the situation (neighbor says he stops whining quickly), and can pee whenever he wants. Great!
Unfortunately, the last few times I've put him in his pen, he's taken to peeing riiiiight outside the litter box AS I walk out the door to leave. The little bugger knows that I'll come back in to clean up after him, and I think he's doing it on purpose to eke a few more minutes of time with me. He goes in the box just fine at all other times when he's in his pen (or out of it); it's just this particular occasion.
I'm not sure how to discourage this behavior. The recommendation (which has worked in previous situations) is to immediately say NO, and to pick him up and walk him to his box. But in this situation, he's happy when I turn back and come over to him. His whole goal is for me to come pick him up. I'd like to ignore him completely so that he stops getting what he wants from it, but obviously I have to clean the pee off the floor, so have to turn back and engage with him, even if it's just to nudge him out of the way so I can access his little pee spot. And I don't want to say NO--he's close to the box, and all the info on litter training says that if he's close, don't discourage him.
I always make sure to play with him before I leave, so it's not like he's not getting attention. And he pees and takes a dump in his box in the mornings when he wakes up, so this extra one is special just for me.
Any suggestions?
My new puppy, Truman, (border terrier, ~10.5 weeks) is totally freaking awesome. My breeder had him litter box trained by the time I got him (a little over a week ago), and so far things have been going splendidly. He's adjusted to his new home extremely well, is already sitting on command, responding to his name, and walking on a leash like a champ. Smart little guy. Maybe too smart.
The one hitch has been this little bathroom thing. He's really good about going in his litter box--had a few mishaps early on, but has gotten the hang of it now. We go on walks outside, too, but he prefers his box and will actually hold it until we get home just so he can poop where he's comfortable. Can't blame the guy.
His setup when I'm gone at work for the day is a crate attached to an x-pen with his water bowl, a blanket, a few indestructible toys, and his litter box. This was recommended by the breeder and works great. He's got plenty of room, doesn't seem to be distressed or unhappy by the situation (neighbor says he stops whining quickly), and can pee whenever he wants. Great!
Unfortunately, the last few times I've put him in his pen, he's taken to peeing riiiiight outside the litter box AS I walk out the door to leave. The little bugger knows that I'll come back in to clean up after him, and I think he's doing it on purpose to eke a few more minutes of time with me. He goes in the box just fine at all other times when he's in his pen (or out of it); it's just this particular occasion.
I'm not sure how to discourage this behavior. The recommendation (which has worked in previous situations) is to immediately say NO, and to pick him up and walk him to his box. But in this situation, he's happy when I turn back and come over to him. His whole goal is for me to come pick him up. I'd like to ignore him completely so that he stops getting what he wants from it, but obviously I have to clean the pee off the floor, so have to turn back and engage with him, even if it's just to nudge him out of the way so I can access his little pee spot. And I don't want to say NO--he's close to the box, and all the info on litter training says that if he's close, don't discourage him.
I always make sure to play with him before I leave, so it's not like he's not getting attention. And he pees and takes a dump in his box in the mornings when he wakes up, so this extra one is special just for me.
Any suggestions?
Response by poster: 1) I am not going to hit my dog.
2) I don't want to do anything to discourage him while he's close to his litter box, for fear that he'll associate the box with the area around the box, and stop peeing in the box altogether.
He gets heaps of praise when he goes in the box, and comes wriggling up to me excitedly when he does it because he knows he's going to get lovin'. When he pees in a non-sanctioned spot, he doesn't come running to me, because he knows he's not going to get praised. Right now, he knows that box=good and I don't want to change that. But he also knows that next to the box=5 more minutes of my presence, whether good or bad.
posted by phunniemee at 2:38 PM on June 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
2) I don't want to do anything to discourage him while he's close to his litter box, for fear that he'll associate the box with the area around the box, and stop peeing in the box altogether.
He gets heaps of praise when he goes in the box, and comes wriggling up to me excitedly when he does it because he knows he's going to get lovin'. When he pees in a non-sanctioned spot, he doesn't come running to me, because he knows he's not going to get praised. Right now, he knows that box=good and I don't want to change that. But he also knows that next to the box=5 more minutes of my presence, whether good or bad.
posted by phunniemee at 2:38 PM on June 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
How about putting a bunch of puppy pads around the box. That way he can pee, and you can walk out the door. Now he has pee in his pen, but you don't have pee on the floor.
After a few days of this, and getting no reaction, he'll do the right thing.
Also, how about giving him a treat as you leave, so he has a positive association with you as you open the door.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 2:40 PM on June 27, 2012 [13 favorites]
After a few days of this, and getting no reaction, he'll do the right thing.
Also, how about giving him a treat as you leave, so he has a positive association with you as you open the door.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 2:40 PM on June 27, 2012 [13 favorites]
Are you putting him in his pen right as you leave, or a little while beforehand? If not the latter, I wonder whether that would help. (Altnatively, you cold try simply ignoring it. That adorable[!] little pup might catch on after spending a day or two in close contact with his own pee.)
posted by divisjm at 2:41 PM on June 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by divisjm at 2:41 PM on June 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
I am not an advocate of pack mentality training, or positive punishment in dog training. I tend to stick more to positive reinforcement methods. Generally what I would usually suggest would be to use your verbal interrupter (EH!) immediately while he is in the act, something that is loud enough to startle, but not frighten. And take perhaps physically take him to the litter box, if he continues to eliminate in the box praise him. Admittedly though, I am not really familiar with box training puppies, but I figure this would work just as well.
posted by Quincy at 2:41 PM on June 27, 2012
posted by Quincy at 2:41 PM on June 27, 2012
Response by poster: He goes in the pen a little bit before I leave, as I go from room to room (i.e. leaving the room that he's in) and gather my things. It's not until I go out the front door that he pops a squat.
I have original-to-the-building hardwood floors in my (rented) apartment--all pee gets cleaned up immediately. I will get some puppy pads and try out Ruthless Bunny's suggestion. That sounds like a great idea.
posted by phunniemee at 2:47 PM on June 27, 2012
I have original-to-the-building hardwood floors in my (rented) apartment--all pee gets cleaned up immediately. I will get some puppy pads and try out Ruthless Bunny's suggestion. That sounds like a great idea.
posted by phunniemee at 2:47 PM on June 27, 2012
Fair enough; for some reason, I was picturing tile. Puppy pads are a godsend. Good luck!
posted by divisjm at 2:53 PM on June 27, 2012
posted by divisjm at 2:53 PM on June 27, 2012
You seem like you know this already but alpha dog training has been discredited and can do more harm than good. So please, do not hit your dog.
(I know you said you won't and this is not directed at you, but I want to keep saying it because the whole alpha dog dominance thing still seems to be pretty ingrained into the public consciousness and I see it all the time in dog question threads on here. I find it very saddening and disheartening and I just want to repeat this over and over again until these practices are seen for the cruel and harmful methods that they are.)
Otherwise, I am not familiar with litter training a dog, but I think Ruthless Bunny's suggestion of trying puppy pads might be a good one. Is there any way you can run it past the trainer? I wonder about the puppy being derailed from using the litter box if it knows it can pee on the puppy pads (which may not be a bad thing necessarily, depending on what you ultimately want to teach).
My other suggestion would be to revert to the tried and true crate training method. Dogs are strongly opposed to peeing in the spot where they sit or sleep, which is why the crate should not be big enough for him to go to a corner away from where he sits to pee) If you stick to it, you can get your puppy crate trained in two weeks or so (so that he no longer needs to be confined to just the crate) and I'm sure you could modify it a little so it works with your litter box training (essentially, leave him in the crate and when you get home, take him out of the crate and put him straight into the litter box).
Good luck! I LOVE your cute puppy!
posted by triggerfinger at 3:17 PM on June 27, 2012 [5 favorites]
(I know you said you won't and this is not directed at you, but I want to keep saying it because the whole alpha dog dominance thing still seems to be pretty ingrained into the public consciousness and I see it all the time in dog question threads on here. I find it very saddening and disheartening and I just want to repeat this over and over again until these practices are seen for the cruel and harmful methods that they are.)
Otherwise, I am not familiar with litter training a dog, but I think Ruthless Bunny's suggestion of trying puppy pads might be a good one. Is there any way you can run it past the trainer? I wonder about the puppy being derailed from using the litter box if it knows it can pee on the puppy pads (which may not be a bad thing necessarily, depending on what you ultimately want to teach).
My other suggestion would be to revert to the tried and true crate training method. Dogs are strongly opposed to peeing in the spot where they sit or sleep, which is why the crate should not be big enough for him to go to a corner away from where he sits to pee) If you stick to it, you can get your puppy crate trained in two weeks or so (so that he no longer needs to be confined to just the crate) and I'm sure you could modify it a little so it works with your litter box training (essentially, leave him in the crate and when you get home, take him out of the crate and put him straight into the litter box).
Good luck! I LOVE your cute puppy!
posted by triggerfinger at 3:17 PM on June 27, 2012 [5 favorites]
I like diversion for things like that. How about a treat just before you walk out the door, something that might require a minute of chewing (on the grounds that it's gotta be hard to chew and pee simultaneously)? You'd want to test that on a weekend or evening to make sure he doesn't do it after you leave.
I'd do the puppy pads too, for floor safety, but be warned that dogs are simple-minded and puppy pads are DELIGHTFUL to shred. They make a wonderful ruffly noise.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:30 PM on June 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'd do the puppy pads too, for floor safety, but be warned that dogs are simple-minded and puppy pads are DELIGHTFUL to shred. They make a wonderful ruffly noise.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:30 PM on June 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think some of (maybe all of?) the puppy pads are impregnated with some sort of scent that encourages them to pee there? So maybe just a regular human potty pad might be better?
posted by elizardbits at 3:30 PM on June 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by elizardbits at 3:30 PM on June 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think you might discourage this behavior if you completely ignored Truman when you return to clean up the pee. And I mean completely ignore him - no touch, no talk and absolutely no eye contact, don't say NO and don't look at him if you have to nudge him out of the way. It won't be so much fun to spend a couple extra minutes with you when you are acting like he doesn't exist!
Also, never ever hit (tap, bop, smack) any puppy (or dog for that matter) across the nose - you can permanently damage it. I agree that appropriate corrections are sometimes necessary (not in this situation), but never on the nose.
posted by Minos888 at 3:40 PM on June 27, 2012
Also, never ever hit (tap, bop, smack) any puppy (or dog for that matter) across the nose - you can permanently damage it. I agree that appropriate corrections are sometimes necessary (not in this situation), but never on the nose.
posted by Minos888 at 3:40 PM on June 27, 2012
What a beautiful puppy! Congratulations on the newest addition to your home!
Puppy pads are worth a try, but for what it's worth, they never worked with our dog. She came to us litter-box trained by her breeder, but as I'm home nearly all day, I managed to take her out every few hours for a potty break and we've had very few accidents in the house. But in the early weeks, just when we were establishing a routine for her and learning to "read" her, we thought we'd teach her to use puppy pads just in case. Unfortunately, she never once saw the pads as anything else but a toy to shred. Since she was crate-trained and taken out frequently, we decided to stick with that until she was better at holding it in. We didn't want her to get into the habit of going indoors, and the general advice we got from other dog owners and trainers were to stick with one potty method in case she got confused. Another friend has a 3.5 month old lab puppy that is confined to the kitchen with her crate and access to a puppy pad while the humans are at work. Although the puppy successfully used puppy pads when she was younger and her mom was around (friend took a week off from work to crate-train and establish a schedule), the puppy began shredding the pad when left alone at home.
That said, a lot of this probably depends on the dog and the breed! Our dog is a stubborn little Frenchie, and Border terriers are whip smart. But I do like Lyn Never's suggestion of distracting the puppy before you leave. Alternatively, you can spend some time getting your puppy used to your leaving. Spend an evening or so pretending to leave your apartment in full view of your puppy--grab your keys, put on your shoes, and walk out the door. Stay outside for five minutes, ten minutes and hopefully, your pup will be immune to your leaving eventually.
Have you tried hitting him? Not hard, of course - a short little smack across the nose - together with a loud NO - ought to do it. If he tries to bite you, do it again. The key is to reinforce constantly that you're alpha.
This is a terrible, terrible idea. There are ways to teach a dog that you're boss without smacking it lightly or pinning it to the ground or whatever. Behaviour modification through positive reinforcement is much more rewarding.
posted by peripathetic at 3:41 PM on June 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
Puppy pads are worth a try, but for what it's worth, they never worked with our dog. She came to us litter-box trained by her breeder, but as I'm home nearly all day, I managed to take her out every few hours for a potty break and we've had very few accidents in the house. But in the early weeks, just when we were establishing a routine for her and learning to "read" her, we thought we'd teach her to use puppy pads just in case. Unfortunately, she never once saw the pads as anything else but a toy to shred. Since she was crate-trained and taken out frequently, we decided to stick with that until she was better at holding it in. We didn't want her to get into the habit of going indoors, and the general advice we got from other dog owners and trainers were to stick with one potty method in case she got confused. Another friend has a 3.5 month old lab puppy that is confined to the kitchen with her crate and access to a puppy pad while the humans are at work. Although the puppy successfully used puppy pads when she was younger and her mom was around (friend took a week off from work to crate-train and establish a schedule), the puppy began shredding the pad when left alone at home.
That said, a lot of this probably depends on the dog and the breed! Our dog is a stubborn little Frenchie, and Border terriers are whip smart. But I do like Lyn Never's suggestion of distracting the puppy before you leave. Alternatively, you can spend some time getting your puppy used to your leaving. Spend an evening or so pretending to leave your apartment in full view of your puppy--grab your keys, put on your shoes, and walk out the door. Stay outside for five minutes, ten minutes and hopefully, your pup will be immune to your leaving eventually.
Have you tried hitting him? Not hard, of course - a short little smack across the nose - together with a loud NO - ought to do it. If he tries to bite you, do it again. The key is to reinforce constantly that you're alpha.
This is a terrible, terrible idea. There are ways to teach a dog that you're boss without smacking it lightly or pinning it to the ground or whatever. Behaviour modification through positive reinforcement is much more rewarding.
posted by peripathetic at 3:41 PM on June 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
Mod note: This is not where we fight about dog training. Please answer the question and/or email the OP or other users if you want to talk about things that are not the answer to this question, thanks.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:55 PM on June 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:55 PM on June 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
Before you go and spend a fortune on disposable puppy pads, look into the reusable kind. I have a rotating set of four Pooch Pads* for my Pom, who just never got the hang of house training because he is all brawn not brains, and would probably beat up your honor student pup at the dog park :-).
*Purchased at a brick & mortar PetSmart, but they don't seem to be on their web site right now.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 4:29 PM on June 27, 2012
*Purchased at a brick & mortar PetSmart, but they don't seem to be on their web site right now.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 4:29 PM on June 27, 2012
I think a firm "No!" when you see puppy pee on the floor, and then going straight out the door, no extra attention whatsoever, combined with the pee pads would be most effective. If, as you think, he is peeing there on purpose, I don't think that's going to discourage him from using his box. (Another thing you can do to protect your floors is get one of those thin, clear plastic mats meant to go under an office chair. I keep one of those under my cats' litter box as an extra layer of protection. If your pup is a chewer, maybe something more rigid. Pee in hardwood is no good.)
posted by catatethebird at 4:44 PM on June 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by catatethebird at 4:44 PM on June 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
My guess would be that this little (very cute) guy doesn't know that peeing right outside the box gets your attention - but maybe he's noticed that in general, he gets attention by peeing. So you should focus on (1) teaching him where to pee (I used the puppy pads, and my puppy had poor aim sometimes, and went right on the edge, half on our nice floors) - this can be done by putting out the puppy pads around the box, just to protect your floor, and then rewarding him/giving him attention when he goes right in the box. And the other things is (2) he's trying to get your attention at inopportune times. You might want to look into NILF (Nothing in Life is Free) - the basic concept being that the puppy doesn't control when you give him attention, you control it. It might help him see that at the very least, he can't demand attention at a certain time.
posted by violetish at 6:25 PM on June 27, 2012
posted by violetish at 6:25 PM on June 27, 2012
Pee pads all around to catch the pee and protect your floors. Ignore any attempts to get you to stay by peeing outside the box, just ignore the peeing, you didn't see it it didn't happen and leave as normal (hopefully the pads should absorb it all so it's not gross and your floors are OK), if you have to clean it up completely ignore him, no pats, no glances no words nothing. If he does pee in the box in the morning make sure you give him lots of pats and praise as you want to encourage that behavior.
As the owner of 2 terriers now (and several more in the past) I warn you terriers can be crazy smart and stubborn and manipulative, telling them off or smacking them can give them a well F*** you attitude and will make them more determined to figure out ways to get what they want. I learned the hard way with a terrier that ended up being a secret pee-er as he got told off once while peeing, I kid you not once only and from then on and we'd only figure out he'd peed in the house in some secret location after we started to smell it, behind curtains, under desks, on coats in a closet. Took us a year to fix that behaviour.
You want to channel that stubbornness into doing behaviours you want to get what they want. Praise and bribery/treats works wonders when reinforcing correct behaviours as does completely ignoring a bad behaviour, if it's not getting the result he wants Truman will try other things until he finds the thing that does, you want peeing in the litter box to be that thing.
Good luck with everything, Truman is super cute.
posted by wwax at 7:11 AM on June 28, 2012
As the owner of 2 terriers now (and several more in the past) I warn you terriers can be crazy smart and stubborn and manipulative, telling them off or smacking them can give them a well F*** you attitude and will make them more determined to figure out ways to get what they want. I learned the hard way with a terrier that ended up being a secret pee-er as he got told off once while peeing, I kid you not once only and from then on and we'd only figure out he'd peed in the house in some secret location after we started to smell it, behind curtains, under desks, on coats in a closet. Took us a year to fix that behaviour.
You want to channel that stubbornness into doing behaviours you want to get what they want. Praise and bribery/treats works wonders when reinforcing correct behaviours as does completely ignoring a bad behaviour, if it's not getting the result he wants Truman will try other things until he finds the thing that does, you want peeing in the litter box to be that thing.
Good luck with everything, Truman is super cute.
posted by wwax at 7:11 AM on June 28, 2012
This is the problem with any system which allows the dog to use in the inside of the house as the bathroom. Take him outside (litter training is fine, but not for long term, and it can make it confusing to the dog about where the bathroom actually is). He can't pee on the floor if he's empty - a good brisk walk before you leave, make sure he urinates a lot, praise like mad, then a stuffed Kong and his pen set up (which sounds fine). The problem is that he's still got urine in him and he doesn't understand that the bathroom is outside, because you're training him that the bathroom is INSIDE! He's not being stubborn, he doesn't understand what you want.
Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard.
posted by biscotti at 7:43 AM on June 28, 2012 [2 favorites]
Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard.
posted by biscotti at 7:43 AM on June 28, 2012 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Update time!
So Truman (pictured here taking up as much space as physically possible on my bed) is 8.5 months old now. He continues to be totally freaking awesome, and has ceased with the peeing on my floor thing.
Things that did not work:
-Puppy pads (i.e. confetti)
-ignoring it
Things that did work:
-using my shame voice if/when he did pee on the floor
-treats when I leave the house
-time
A new(ish) problem has cropped up, wherein he poops on the floor whenever I have people over. I assume this is for territorial reasons, though I am also open to the possibility that he gets his jollies from being an embarrassing jerk. We're working on it.
posted by phunniemee at 11:15 AM on December 31, 2012
So Truman (pictured here taking up as much space as physically possible on my bed) is 8.5 months old now. He continues to be totally freaking awesome, and has ceased with the peeing on my floor thing.
Things that did not work:
-Puppy pads (i.e. confetti)
-ignoring it
Things that did work:
-using my shame voice if/when he did pee on the floor
-treats when I leave the house
-time
A new(ish) problem has cropped up, wherein he poops on the floor whenever I have people over. I assume this is for territorial reasons, though I am also open to the possibility that he gets his jollies from being an embarrassing jerk. We're working on it.
posted by phunniemee at 11:15 AM on December 31, 2012
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