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May 24, 2012 7:04 AM Subscribe
I'm curious about the hidden hierarchies and pecking orders that exist in the world around us. Can you give the inside scoop about who outranks whom? Examples within.
I am very curious about the different official and official hierarchies that develop in organizations that may not be commonly known (or, if unofficial, officially sanctioned).
For instance, I ride the Boston public transit system--the MBTA. When a bunch of transit employees get together, do the subway drivers feel superior to the bus drivers, because a subway is one hell of a machine? Or do the bus drivers look down on the subway drivers, because they just ride on rails, and that's no challenge? Is there jostling between the above-ground trolley drivers and the underground subway drivers? What about the bus drivers who drive those long articulated buses versus the regular-length buses?
In the Coast Guard, does a helicopter pilot feel superior to a cutter captain?
Carpenters versus plumbers versus electricians--who feels like the boss of the build site?
I don't care if the pecking order is only one sided (i.e., A thinks it's better than B, but feels a little intimidated by C--but neither B nor C give a shit about "rank"--that's ok).
I'm not as interested in pure "us vs. them" binaries (i.e., Canon photogs think Nikon photogs are dumb! Belgians look down on everyone!).
Thanks!
I am very curious about the different official and official hierarchies that develop in organizations that may not be commonly known (or, if unofficial, officially sanctioned).
For instance, I ride the Boston public transit system--the MBTA. When a bunch of transit employees get together, do the subway drivers feel superior to the bus drivers, because a subway is one hell of a machine? Or do the bus drivers look down on the subway drivers, because they just ride on rails, and that's no challenge? Is there jostling between the above-ground trolley drivers and the underground subway drivers? What about the bus drivers who drive those long articulated buses versus the regular-length buses?
In the Coast Guard, does a helicopter pilot feel superior to a cutter captain?
Carpenters versus plumbers versus electricians--who feels like the boss of the build site?
I don't care if the pecking order is only one sided (i.e., A thinks it's better than B, but feels a little intimidated by C--but neither B nor C give a shit about "rank"--that's ok).
I'm not as interested in pure "us vs. them" binaries (i.e., Canon photogs think Nikon photogs are dumb! Belgians look down on everyone!).
Thanks!
I have found this ordering to be pretty common opinion.
posted by bessel functions seem unnecessarily complicated at 7:09 AM on May 24, 2012 [9 favorites]
posted by bessel functions seem unnecessarily complicated at 7:09 AM on May 24, 2012 [9 favorites]
From my observation in the university environment, you have the academics who do the intellectual work of the organization, and who require years of training and maintenance of their knowledge and skills. And then you have the administrative staff, whose efforts allow the academics to pursue their work.
Friends and family members who work in hospitals and museums say it is the same dynamic in those places: a group of highly educated people who carry out the core mission of the institution, and those who enable it all to happen. Understandable tension between the two.
posted by Liesl at 7:14 AM on May 24, 2012
Friends and family members who work in hospitals and museums say it is the same dynamic in those places: a group of highly educated people who carry out the core mission of the institution, and those who enable it all to happen. Understandable tension between the two.
posted by Liesl at 7:14 AM on May 24, 2012
Completely unofficial, but this is how I think the ranks square off in any UK teaching hospital:
Chief Executive
Medical Director
Matrons
Professors
Senior Nursing Sisters = Consultants / Senior Lecturers
Junior Nursing Sisters = Senior Registrars = Para-medical staff (e.g. physios, speech therapists)
Other nursing staff = Junior Registrars
SHOs
PRHOs
Health care assistants
All other non-clinical roles
Many of the ties are broken by age, and there are some discrepancies. For example all tiers of middle management think they rank above all clinical staff, but all clinical staff know they rank above all middle managers.
posted by roofus at 7:20 AM on May 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
Chief Executive
Medical Director
Matrons
Professors
Senior Nursing Sisters = Consultants / Senior Lecturers
Junior Nursing Sisters = Senior Registrars = Para-medical staff (e.g. physios, speech therapists)
Other nursing staff = Junior Registrars
SHOs
PRHOs
Health care assistants
All other non-clinical roles
Many of the ties are broken by age, and there are some discrepancies. For example all tiers of middle management think they rank above all clinical staff, but all clinical staff know they rank above all middle managers.
posted by roofus at 7:20 AM on May 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
As a runner, we don't tend to look down on walkers, but non-runners? THEY JUST DON'T GET IT!
As a triathlete, we don't think less of runners, but we do tend to think that we put up with a lot more shit due to the added complexity of swimming and biking. Oh, and we're better at managing our time and generally better at risk mitigation.
posted by floweredfish at 7:21 AM on May 24, 2012
As a triathlete, we don't think less of runners, but we do tend to think that we put up with a lot more shit due to the added complexity of swimming and biking. Oh, and we're better at managing our time and generally better at risk mitigation.
posted by floweredfish at 7:21 AM on May 24, 2012
ah! in cities, the classic trifecta: drivers, pedestrians, and bicyclists -- all three throw up their hands about the inconsiderateness or stupidity of the others in various situations (all, you know, somewhat correct but also mostly not).
similarly, one should add: locals v. tourists
posted by acm at 7:23 AM on May 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
similarly, one should add: locals v. tourists
posted by acm at 7:23 AM on May 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
just thought: in the office, the IT staff v. all other employees -- mutual frustration, disdain, reliance, whatever.
posted by acm at 7:24 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by acm at 7:24 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
I know I can't be the only one who feels this way, but it's a bit more nuanced than perhaps you're looking for.
For years I was up to the minute on new sites launching and could snag my first name as a username. One of said sites is Twitter. I am always secretly a little pleased with myself when a self-professed "Social Media Expert" has some Twitter account like @kelliethinkssoitmustbetrue. I nod politely to whatever they say and move on.
posted by FlamingBore at 7:29 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
For years I was up to the minute on new sites launching and could snag my first name as a username. One of said sites is Twitter. I am always secretly a little pleased with myself when a self-professed "Social Media Expert" has some Twitter account like @kelliethinkssoitmustbetrue. I nod politely to whatever they say and move on.
posted by FlamingBore at 7:29 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
As a programmer, there are very interesting dynamics between our team and
posted by blue t-shirt at 7:29 AM on May 24, 2012
- The database administrators,
- Middleware (the people who keep the web servers running), and
- the desktop support team (who keep our workstations running).
posted by blue t-shirt at 7:29 AM on May 24, 2012
In comics, when you're first starting out there's a definite advantage to being an artist as opposed to a writer -- art skills are much easier to evaluate at a glance, and aspiring writers are basically considered to be a dime a dozen. Unless you have connections or a truly phenomenal pitch, as an unknown writer you'll have a hard time getting your foot in the door. First-time artists will get paired up with an experienced writer that the editors have already worked with.
This hierarchy does sometimes flip once a writer reaches a certain level of notoriety -- the Neil Gaimans and Brian Woods of the world have no trouble pitching books without an artist already attached. But those exceptions are pretty rare. If you have a writer and an artist of about equal skill and experience, the artist will always be better regarded and have more bargaining power, in my experience.
(And to be fair, there are good reasons for this -- the time investment required to draw a comic is much higher than that required to write it, and an artist is therefore going to be paid much more for their work in most cases. Also, when people are shopping for new comics, the art is going to be what grabs their attention -- from a marketing perspective, a no-name artist is objectively more valuable than a no-name writer.)
posted by Narrative Priorities at 7:30 AM on May 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
This hierarchy does sometimes flip once a writer reaches a certain level of notoriety -- the Neil Gaimans and Brian Woods of the world have no trouble pitching books without an artist already attached. But those exceptions are pretty rare. If you have a writer and an artist of about equal skill and experience, the artist will always be better regarded and have more bargaining power, in my experience.
(And to be fair, there are good reasons for this -- the time investment required to draw a comic is much higher than that required to write it, and an artist is therefore going to be paid much more for their work in most cases. Also, when people are shopping for new comics, the art is going to be what grabs their attention -- from a marketing perspective, a no-name artist is objectively more valuable than a no-name writer.)
posted by Narrative Priorities at 7:30 AM on May 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
I can't figure if this is us versus them example, but people without an accent feel superior to people with an accent.
posted by francesca too at 7:32 AM on May 24, 2012
posted by francesca too at 7:32 AM on May 24, 2012
One thing that sometimes subverts a superficial hierarchy is the presence in any organization of gatekeeper-type people who know everybody and where all the bodies are buried. Sure there might be an office org chart, but there's always the lower level office manager who happens to be best buddies with the director and who knows the name and kids' names of the one guy in engineering who will actually fix something quickly.
---
francesca too it depends on the accent though...
posted by Wretch729 at 7:34 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
---
francesca too it depends on the accent though...
posted by Wretch729 at 7:34 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
In my fire department, the unspoken coolness hierarchy is:
Firefighters assigned to a "specialty piece" (heavy rescue or ladder truck) > firefighters assigned to an engine > firefighter/paramedics (no matter what their previous firefighting experience) > anyone assigned to an ambulance that day, no matter who they are or what their rank.
This presumes coolness is measured in units of trash talked per shift. If one measures previous calls recounted per shift, paramedics move up one notch. If one measured actual lives saved in one's career, paramedics would move to the top, but no one uses that measurement.
posted by itstheclamsname at 7:34 AM on May 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
Firefighters assigned to a "specialty piece" (heavy rescue or ladder truck) > firefighters assigned to an engine > firefighter/paramedics (no matter what their previous firefighting experience) > anyone assigned to an ambulance that day, no matter who they are or what their rank.
This presumes coolness is measured in units of trash talked per shift. If one measures previous calls recounted per shift, paramedics move up one notch. If one measured actual lives saved in one's career, paramedics would move to the top, but no one uses that measurement.
posted by itstheclamsname at 7:34 AM on May 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
Actually, I would say there's a little bit (tiny!) of that here at Metafilter.
Mefites who have been around longer > newer Mefites
Mefites depending on what part of the site they use the most: People who have met IRL > Metafilter > AskMetafilter > Music > Projects.. etc
I only really see it during hotly debated topics in metatalk though.
posted by royalsong at 7:38 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Mefites who have been around longer > newer Mefites
Mefites depending on what part of the site they use the most: People who have met IRL > Metafilter > AskMetafilter > Music > Projects.. etc
I only really see it during hotly debated topics in metatalk though.
posted by royalsong at 7:38 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Oh... and more broad than within an organization - When someone says they are from the same town as you, in my case - Chicago, and then when you ask what part of town they say something like... oh, Gurnee. Substitute as necessary.
posted by FlamingBore at 7:40 AM on May 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by FlamingBore at 7:40 AM on May 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
Any multiplayer game that has more than one premade character to play will automatically result in every class to feel vastly superior to all who chose a different class/character. And none of them is ever right.
posted by MinusCelsius at 7:43 AM on May 24, 2012
posted by MinusCelsius at 7:43 AM on May 24, 2012
Oh, and in my fire department hierarchy, I forgot to mention this: if you measure by actual number of calls run, you invert the entire scale. But no one seems to use that criterion either.
posted by itstheclamsname at 7:44 AM on May 24, 2012
posted by itstheclamsname at 7:44 AM on May 24, 2012
Ah, another one. This just came up in conversation last week while we were out with a friend who is type 1 diabetic.
Apparently there's a hierarchy among folks with eating disorders. I'm probably going to get this wrong, but I think it went:
1. Those with type 1 who can manipulate insulin.
2. Those with anorexia.
3. Those suffering with bulimia.
4. Binge eaters.
posted by FlamingBore at 7:44 AM on May 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
Apparently there's a hierarchy among folks with eating disorders. I'm probably going to get this wrong, but I think it went:
1. Those with type 1 who can manipulate insulin.
2. Those with anorexia.
3. Those suffering with bulimia.
4. Binge eaters.
posted by FlamingBore at 7:44 AM on May 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
In patent law there's a perception that litigation is superior to transactional work, particularly patent prosecution.
In law generally—as the Asker probably knows—there are some specialities that are definitely looked down upon, such as personal injury and most criminal defense, especially DUI and traffic. This rank is not strictly tied to income, either. It's hard to say what's at the top of the heap, federal appellate litigation maybe, or possibly general counsel at large companies, but in some sense they're not even playing the same game anymore.
posted by jedicus at 7:46 AM on May 24, 2012
In law generally—as the Asker probably knows—there are some specialities that are definitely looked down upon, such as personal injury and most criminal defense, especially DUI and traffic. This rank is not strictly tied to income, either. It's hard to say what's at the top of the heap, federal appellate litigation maybe, or possibly general counsel at large companies, but in some sense they're not even playing the same game anymore.
posted by jedicus at 7:46 AM on May 24, 2012
There's a hierarchy in programming languages (with, say, Python or Ruby being cooler than Perl or JavaScript) but I'm not cool enough to know what the relationships are.
posted by punchtothehead at 7:48 AM on May 24, 2012
posted by punchtothehead at 7:48 AM on May 24, 2012
"In law generally—as the Asker probably knows—there are some specialities that are definitely looked down upon, such as personal injury and most criminal defense, especially DUI and traffic. This rank is not strictly tied to income, either. It's hard to say what's at the top of the heap"
But the bottom of the heap is any lawyer who advertises with "Esq." after his name, because of the cringe-inducing level of status anxiety it broadcasts.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:56 AM on May 24, 2012 [6 favorites]
But the bottom of the heap is any lawyer who advertises with "Esq." after his name, because of the cringe-inducing level of status anxiety it broadcasts.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:56 AM on May 24, 2012 [6 favorites]
In the warehouse where I once worked, those who picked things to be shipped out were a bit more important than those who unpacked incoming goods and put them on the shelves.
posted by springload at 8:00 AM on May 24, 2012
posted by springload at 8:00 AM on May 24, 2012
There seems to be a diabetes hierarchy. Type 1 is more hard core and is not caused by poor eating habits. Type 2 is looked down on since it's largely self induced. I read the Type 1s want the Type 2s to stop calling their disease "diabetes."
posted by parakeetdog at 8:14 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by parakeetdog at 8:14 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
To add to what itstheclamsname said about fire departments, I made a very interesting discovery about hierarchy recently. In our state, it's the firefighters who have ultimate jurisdiction over the scene of an emergency, even if they're volunteers and not official city employees. In fact, the formal hierarchy for jurisdiction goes like this: firefighters, specialist rescue (emergency personnel trained in getting patients out of a wrecked car, or off a sinking boat, for instance), EMT/paramedics, and THEN the cops. So pretty much the cops only have the authority when they're the only ones on the scene. And as you can imagine, they don't like it much.
In the informal hierarchy of actual station life, it's more like: 'real' firefighters-- usually the guys with a bunch of structure fires (i.e., buildings) under their belt-- then jack-of-all-trades firefighters with less experience and rescue squad people on about equal footing, then the paramedics, then the poor first responders, who do the vast majority of the actual work, and then the first responders can, if they like, lean way down and spit on the cops.
posted by WidgetAlley at 8:17 AM on May 24, 2012
In the informal hierarchy of actual station life, it's more like: 'real' firefighters-- usually the guys with a bunch of structure fires (i.e., buildings) under their belt-- then jack-of-all-trades firefighters with less experience and rescue squad people on about equal footing, then the paramedics, then the poor first responders, who do the vast majority of the actual work, and then the first responders can, if they like, lean way down and spit on the cops.
posted by WidgetAlley at 8:17 AM on May 24, 2012
Surfing world.
Surfers are superior to bodyboarders. Everyone is far superior to kooks (beginners). Also locals are superior to non-locals.
Not universal of course but some areas are like this.
posted by WickedPissah at 8:17 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Surfers are superior to bodyboarders. Everyone is far superior to kooks (beginners). Also locals are superior to non-locals.
Not universal of course but some areas are like this.
posted by WickedPissah at 8:17 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Within an art museum, it generally goes (very, very roughly): trustees > director > curators > development and fundraising people > public programming and museum education > support staff of any kind. Naturally, there is blowback from each of these levels, members of which consider themselves the most indispensible to the organization.
Within the art world in general, art history academics generally look down on museums, which generally look down on galleries (because of their involvement with crass commercialism), which in turn look down on auction houses (for the same reason). Auction houses probably consider themselves the awesomest though, those crass commercialists!
posted by LeeLanded at 8:24 AM on May 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
Within the art world in general, art history academics generally look down on museums, which generally look down on galleries (because of their involvement with crass commercialism), which in turn look down on auction houses (for the same reason). Auction houses probably consider themselves the awesomest though, those crass commercialists!
posted by LeeLanded at 8:24 AM on May 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
In the airline industry, the bigger the iron the more status you generally have. Captains flying internationally on 747s beat out just about everyone else (and they get paid more, too!). The guys shuttling people back and forth to Nantucket on Cape Air are probably at the bottom of the heap.
In personal aviation, there seems to be a pecking order based on how many certificates you can acquire and how much money you have to spend on your aircraft. Sport pilots renting from the flight school are at the bottom. If you can afford to get a commercial or instructor rating (and then not actually use it for a job) and own a nice Baron or some other high performance plane? More status. Unless you've proven to everyone else at the airport that you're a complete fuckup who has no business behind the controls, then everyone avoids you.
posted by backseatpilot at 8:24 AM on May 24, 2012
In personal aviation, there seems to be a pecking order based on how many certificates you can acquire and how much money you have to spend on your aircraft. Sport pilots renting from the flight school are at the bottom. If you can afford to get a commercial or instructor rating (and then not actually use it for a job) and own a nice Baron or some other high performance plane? More status. Unless you've proven to everyone else at the airport that you're a complete fuckup who has no business behind the controls, then everyone avoids you.
posted by backseatpilot at 8:24 AM on May 24, 2012
At the fairly elite university I went to, the hierarchy of the colleges among the students was Science > Liberal Arts > Engineering > Business. Everyone agreed the engineering curriculum was hella hard, but it was a direct-entry career program, and therefore not as prestigious as dicking around with majoring in something that required you to go to med school or law school or grad school thereafter. Business was like selling out at 18, which clearly you are not supposed to do until you're 22.
Within the business college, the most prestigious major was an accounting program that was a five-year bachelor/masters, presumably because it had grad school pre-attached. (The least prestigious major in business was marketing, I'm not sure why.)
It all seems pretty silly in retrospect; but I guess since everyone had to be smart to get in in the first place, the major-prestige signalling was mostly about money (to not have to hustle right into a career; to be able to study something you "love" rather than what you want to do with your life), not about brains.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:31 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Within the business college, the most prestigious major was an accounting program that was a five-year bachelor/masters, presumably because it had grad school pre-attached. (The least prestigious major in business was marketing, I'm not sure why.)
It all seems pretty silly in retrospect; but I guess since everyone had to be smart to get in in the first place, the major-prestige signalling was mostly about money (to not have to hustle right into a career; to be able to study something you "love" rather than what you want to do with your life), not about brains.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:31 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'm wondering about writer versus editor. And maybe writer or editor versus teacher-of-writing/editing.
I've been all three and my gut feeling, just for myself, is that writer is always superior in status. Not just someone who writes, mind you, but one who earns a living by writing.
And although I'm a non-fiction writer, I'd say fiction writers are far higher up the prestige ladder. If they're good.
And then I start thinking, well, is a really good genre novelist better than a mediocre but ambitious literary novelist?
Is there no end to this???
posted by fivesavagepalms at 8:31 AM on May 24, 2012
I've been all three and my gut feeling, just for myself, is that writer is always superior in status. Not just someone who writes, mind you, but one who earns a living by writing.
And although I'm a non-fiction writer, I'd say fiction writers are far higher up the prestige ladder. If they're good.
And then I start thinking, well, is a really good genre novelist better than a mediocre but ambitious literary novelist?
Is there no end to this???
posted by fivesavagepalms at 8:31 AM on May 24, 2012
At the fairly elite university I went to, the hierarchy of the colleges among the students was Science > Liberal Arts > Engineering > Business
This is interesting, here in Greece it's Medicine > Engineering > Sciences > Liberal Arts, mostly based on expectations of future income that were formed in the '60s and '70s.
posted by Dr Dracator at 8:41 AM on May 24, 2012
This is interesting, here in Greece it's Medicine > Engineering > Sciences > Liberal Arts, mostly based on expectations of future income that were formed in the '60s and '70s.
posted by Dr Dracator at 8:41 AM on May 24, 2012
But the bottom of the heap is any lawyer who advertises with "Esq." after his name, because of the cringe-inducing level of status anxiety it broadcasts.
Heh. I felt this way until I had potential clients go with someone else because they thought I was only an attorney while they were an "attorney, counsel at law, and a esquire."
Status anxiety is one thing, making a buck another.
posted by bswinburn at 8:42 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Heh. I felt this way until I had potential clients go with someone else because they thought I was only an attorney while they were an "attorney, counsel at law, and a esquire."
Status anxiety is one thing, making a buck another.
posted by bswinburn at 8:42 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
It's not right, of course, but school librarians tend to be at the bottom of the heap librarian-wise.
posted by pantarei70 at 9:01 AM on May 24, 2012
posted by pantarei70 at 9:01 AM on May 24, 2012
Disneyland.
I was once a cast member. I am only going to include the "onstage" employees since that was who I interacted with.
1. People that played a 'face character' like Aladdin or a princess.
1a. People who played a costumed character like Donald Duck.
1b. Dancers in parades or shows.
2. Those ambassador ladies. They always have stunning looks and are friendly. They take care of special guests / celebrities.
2a. The people that drive a car or a horse cart.
3. Those that run the attractions (aka the rides)
3a. Those that run the attractions that have to wear a stupid costume.
4. Ticket sellers.
4a. Store clerks.
4b. Information people.
5. Food service people in resteraunts.
5a. Food service people everywhere else.
5b. Food service people that have to wear a stupid costume*
6. Janitors
*One costume consists of blue pants, orange shirt with fruit all over it, a useless green apron with a red hat. It is also unisex, so it makes women look fatter than they actually are. One guy said that the costume was so bright you could wear it at night and not get hit by a car. Another replied that you would never get hit on while wearing it.
posted by Monday at 9:13 AM on May 24, 2012 [8 favorites]
I was once a cast member. I am only going to include the "onstage" employees since that was who I interacted with.
1. People that played a 'face character' like Aladdin or a princess.
1a. People who played a costumed character like Donald Duck.
1b. Dancers in parades or shows.
2. Those ambassador ladies. They always have stunning looks and are friendly. They take care of special guests / celebrities.
2a. The people that drive a car or a horse cart.
3. Those that run the attractions (aka the rides)
3a. Those that run the attractions that have to wear a stupid costume.
4. Ticket sellers.
4a. Store clerks.
4b. Information people.
5. Food service people in resteraunts.
5a. Food service people everywhere else.
5b. Food service people that have to wear a stupid costume*
6. Janitors
*One costume consists of blue pants, orange shirt with fruit all over it, a useless green apron with a red hat. It is also unisex, so it makes women look fatter than they actually are. One guy said that the costume was so bright you could wear it at night and not get hit by a car. Another replied that you would never get hit on while wearing it.
posted by Monday at 9:13 AM on May 24, 2012 [8 favorites]
Yeah, law is weird. I had a really long answer written out but realized that it's really just that there are so many different hierarchies, most of which don't correspond with each other very well. So, for example, US Supreme Court justices > federal appellate judges > federal district judges > magistrates, and state supreme court judges > state appellate judges > state trial judges.
But lining the two of those up is tricky. Clearly the US Supreme Court is at the top of whatever. But how do we compare federal district judges with state appellate judges? I dunno. Then you've got the litigation/transactional distinction. And while some practice areas may be more prestigious than others, e.g., multinational M&A is more prestigious than family law, the rough rule of thumb is that the "bigger" the issue, the more prestigious it is, regardless of practice area.
Regardless, family law and criminal defense are always pretty much at the bottom, and plaintiff's side personal injury work is pretty far down there.
posted by valkyryn at 9:34 AM on May 24, 2012
But lining the two of those up is tricky. Clearly the US Supreme Court is at the top of whatever. But how do we compare federal district judges with state appellate judges? I dunno. Then you've got the litigation/transactional distinction. And while some practice areas may be more prestigious than others, e.g., multinational M&A is more prestigious than family law, the rough rule of thumb is that the "bigger" the issue, the more prestigious it is, regardless of practice area.
Regardless, family law and criminal defense are always pretty much at the bottom, and plaintiff's side personal injury work is pretty far down there.
posted by valkyryn at 9:34 AM on May 24, 2012
The tech labs at my nerdy high school have changed somewhat since I was there, but I have no doubt there's still a hierarchy. Chemistry (the most hardcore, it's a two-year program full of kids you never see because all they do is study) > any kind of mentorship > computer systems > biotech > robotics/microelectronics > prototyping > CAD > energy systems, which was at the bottom of the heap when I was in it because, psssssh, you can get in without EVEN having a project idea.
I'm just an off-again-on-again amateur, but I have the sense that the Western dance world goes something like ballet > modern > jazz > tap, which is pretty blatantly about the associated races and classes. :(
I live in a hardcore bike town with cold winters, and the crazy people who bike all winter may or may not really feel superior to the far more numerous fair-weather bike riders, but they definitely inspire a lot of status anxiety.
pantarei70 is correct about school librarians, of course. Top of the heap in the library/infosci community are academic librarians who blog and tweet and publish and present and work with sexy technology -- but within the universities where they work, they have ALL the status anxiety because they're a rung below the faculty (whose research they make possible).
posted by clavicle at 9:36 AM on May 24, 2012
I'm just an off-again-on-again amateur, but I have the sense that the Western dance world goes something like ballet > modern > jazz > tap, which is pretty blatantly about the associated races and classes. :(
I live in a hardcore bike town with cold winters, and the crazy people who bike all winter may or may not really feel superior to the far more numerous fair-weather bike riders, but they definitely inspire a lot of status anxiety.
pantarei70 is correct about school librarians, of course. Top of the heap in the library/infosci community are academic librarians who blog and tweet and publish and present and work with sexy technology -- but within the universities where they work, they have ALL the status anxiety because they're a rung below the faculty (whose research they make possible).
posted by clavicle at 9:36 AM on May 24, 2012
One of the best introductions to this and how to spot signs of it, in the US context, was Paul Fussell's Class.
And this,
ah! in cities, the classic trifecta: drivers, pedestrians, and bicyclists -- all three throw up their hands about the inconsiderateness or stupidity of the others in various situations (all, you know, somewhat correct but also mostly not).
makes me add that perhaps culture plays a huge role in this. So keep that in mind as well, as the elements that might make someone higher up in one culture may not necessarily be as valued in another.
posted by infini at 10:03 AM on May 24, 2012
And this,
ah! in cities, the classic trifecta: drivers, pedestrians, and bicyclists -- all three throw up their hands about the inconsiderateness or stupidity of the others in various situations (all, you know, somewhat correct but also mostly not).
makes me add that perhaps culture plays a huge role in this. So keep that in mind as well, as the elements that might make someone higher up in one culture may not necessarily be as valued in another.
posted by infini at 10:03 AM on May 24, 2012
But the bottom of the heap is any lawyer who advertises with "Esq." after his name, because of the cringe-inducing level of status anxiety it broadcasts.
Heh. My dad would say that any lawyer gauche enough to advertise at all is to be avoided.
posted by junco at 10:46 AM on May 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
Heh. My dad would say that any lawyer gauche enough to advertise at all is to be avoided.
posted by junco at 10:46 AM on May 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
Specific to Jeet Kune Do: How many generations of teachers separate you from Bruce Lee, and to a lesser extent (more to do with style than rank, depending) who the first and sometimes second generation teachers were.
For example, Someone who learned from someone who learned from Tim Tackett who learned from Bruce not quite as good as someone who learned from someone who learned from Dan Inosanto who learned from Bruce, neither of whom are nearly as auspicious as the guy that learned directly from Dan Inosanto who learned from Bruce. And of course the "Jeet Kune Do concepts" teachers without legitimate lineage are way, way down there.
I understand it's similar with any Kung Fu.
posted by cmoj at 10:59 AM on May 24, 2012
For example, Someone who learned from someone who learned from Tim Tackett who learned from Bruce not quite as good as someone who learned from someone who learned from Dan Inosanto who learned from Bruce, neither of whom are nearly as auspicious as the guy that learned directly from Dan Inosanto who learned from Bruce. And of course the "Jeet Kune Do concepts" teachers without legitimate lineage are way, way down there.
I understand it's similar with any Kung Fu.
posted by cmoj at 10:59 AM on May 24, 2012
Artist who has had solo shows at major museums, with full-color, hardback published catalogs and audiotours > an artist who has been in group shows at major museums curated by a name brand curator > an artist who has had solo shows at minor museums > an artist who has been in curated group shows at minor museums > an artist who has had solo shows in non-museum non-profit institutional white-cubed space (universities, artist-run spaces) > an artist who has had a solo show in any white-cube space > an artist who has been in a group show in any white-cube space > an artist who has put together their own show in a white-cube space > an artist who has put together a show in a non-white-cube space > an artist who shows in coffee shops.
Also,
Artist who makes an excellent living as an artist
Artist who makes a living as an artist
Artist who teaches and makes some money as an artist
Artist who makes a living in a related field and makes some money as an artist
Artist who teaches and makes no money on art
Artist who teaches and makes no art
Someone who thinks of themself as an "Artist"
posted by mmmcmmm at 11:34 AM on May 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
Also,
Artist who makes an excellent living as an artist
Artist who makes a living as an artist
Artist who teaches and makes some money as an artist
Artist who makes a living in a related field and makes some money as an artist
Artist who teaches and makes no money on art
Artist who teaches and makes no art
Someone who thinks of themself as an "Artist"
posted by mmmcmmm at 11:34 AM on May 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
When I started work for the first time as a technical writer for an engineering office (makes medical devices), I didn't know the difference between the different types of engineers. So, I asked my software engineer friend the hierarchy. His reply:
"Upper class snooty guys
Biomedical engineers
Electrical engineers
Mechanical engineers
Software engineers
--------------------------
Middle class filler, treated with some suspicion by both other classes:
Project engineers (these are likely the gofers for the upper class snooty guys)
Component engineers (these tend to be the gofers for the project engineers, and do most of the real work)
--------------------------
Lower class scum, only allowed to eat with upper class snooty guys on special occasions:
Quality assurance engineers
Software quality assurance engineers
Validation engineers
Basically, design guys > project management guys > test guys. Which is a
little silly, because good test engineers are the hardest type of engineer
to find."
So, I asked, where does that leave technical writers? Are we lower than scum? Depends on where you work, he said: "Young engineers will look down upon you because they think they can write their documentation themselves; experienced engineers will respect you because they've worked at places that don't have technical writers."
posted by Melismata at 11:54 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
"Upper class snooty guys
Biomedical engineers
Electrical engineers
Mechanical engineers
Software engineers
--------------------------
Middle class filler, treated with some suspicion by both other classes:
Project engineers (these are likely the gofers for the upper class snooty guys)
Component engineers (these tend to be the gofers for the project engineers, and do most of the real work)
--------------------------
Lower class scum, only allowed to eat with upper class snooty guys on special occasions:
Quality assurance engineers
Software quality assurance engineers
Validation engineers
Basically, design guys > project management guys > test guys. Which is a
little silly, because good test engineers are the hardest type of engineer
to find."
So, I asked, where does that leave technical writers? Are we lower than scum? Depends on where you work, he said: "Young engineers will look down upon you because they think they can write their documentation themselves; experienced engineers will respect you because they've worked at places that don't have technical writers."
posted by Melismata at 11:54 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Art students at the university I attended (not an art school, per se):
Sculptors
Painters
Drawers
Printmakers
Photographers
I thought it might have had something to do with how "one of a kind" the artwork was--not the style of it, but how easy it was to make more than one of the same piece. And artists who worked in three dimensions outranked artists who worked in two.
posted by chippie at 12:09 PM on May 24, 2012
Sculptors
Painters
Drawers
Printmakers
Photographers
I thought it might have had something to do with how "one of a kind" the artwork was--not the style of it, but how easy it was to make more than one of the same piece. And artists who worked in three dimensions outranked artists who worked in two.
posted by chippie at 12:09 PM on May 24, 2012
Within specialties of consulting:
M&A > Strategy > Operations > Technology > Human Resources > Staff Augmentation
Anybody above you is an arrogant and amoral shark who will lie as often as they breathe and stab their mother in the back for 50 cents, anybody below you is a polyester-wearing chump who's so useless they might as well be working for a client.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 12:11 PM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
M&A > Strategy > Operations > Technology > Human Resources > Staff Augmentation
Anybody above you is an arrogant and amoral shark who will lie as often as they breathe and stab their mother in the back for 50 cents, anybody below you is a polyester-wearing chump who's so useless they might as well be working for a client.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 12:11 PM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Within teaching (ranked from highest respect accorded to least):
* middle school sped teachers
* middle school anything teachers (except PE)
* high school sped
* high school anything (except PE)
* elementary sped
* all other elementary 1-5 (except PE)
* kindergarten teachers
* preschool teachers; and last by a LONG shot.....
* PE teachers
posted by kinetic at 12:35 PM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
* middle school sped teachers
* middle school anything teachers (except PE)
* high school sped
* high school anything (except PE)
* elementary sped
* all other elementary 1-5 (except PE)
* kindergarten teachers
* preschool teachers; and last by a LONG shot.....
* PE teachers
posted by kinetic at 12:35 PM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
higher education:
Faculty
Administration
Managers
people who donate to foundations
vehicles
foreign Students
students
random strangers
staff
posted by couchdive at 12:51 PM on May 24, 2012 [7 favorites]
Faculty
Administration
Managers
people who donate to foundations
vehicles
foreign Students
students
random strangers
staff
posted by couchdive at 12:51 PM on May 24, 2012 [7 favorites]
If you make a living through tips, you see customers (surprise!) in terms of:
factor one: how much they tip
factor two: how pleasant they are
Your mental hierarchy of people will mostly depend on factor one, with two being a qualifying factor.
At the very bottom of the ladder is the unpleasant non-tipper; the ladder might as well descend into the icy flames of hell.
posted by The ____ of Justice at 1:30 PM on May 24, 2012
factor one: how much they tip
factor two: how pleasant they are
Your mental hierarchy of people will mostly depend on factor one, with two being a qualifying factor.
At the very bottom of the ladder is the unpleasant non-tipper; the ladder might as well descend into the icy flames of hell.
posted by The ____ of Justice at 1:30 PM on May 24, 2012
Oh yeah, the general hierarchy I've seen within companies in terms of who looks down on who:
- owners
- managers
- technical people
- sales (may be at same level or above techs, depending)
- the main workers/administrative support
- hr
- temps
posted by The ____ of Justice at 1:37 PM on May 24, 2012
- owners
- managers
- technical people
- sales (may be at same level or above techs, depending)
- the main workers/administrative support
- hr
- temps
posted by The ____ of Justice at 1:37 PM on May 24, 2012
Sculptors
Painters
Drawers
Printmakers
Photographers
Interesting. My experience in both undergrad and grad was that each department just thought they they were the most important and it was on down from there. Except graphic design and art education. Nobody thought they were on top.
And apparently I'm way higher up on the showing-artist totem pole than I thought! Though i guess there's a big jump in between some of those.
posted by cmoj at 1:38 PM on May 24, 2012
Painters
Drawers
Printmakers
Photographers
Interesting. My experience in both undergrad and grad was that each department just thought they they were the most important and it was on down from there. Except graphic design and art education. Nobody thought they were on top.
And apparently I'm way higher up on the showing-artist totem pole than I thought! Though i guess there's a big jump in between some of those.
posted by cmoj at 1:38 PM on May 24, 2012
In any big national news gangbang, the network TV guys rule the roost, getting the best spots for their cameras and often the first or only questions at any impromptu press conference. Then comes the local TV, the national pencils, the wires, the local pencils, then radio of any kind and these days, bloggers, if any actually leave their desks. Of course, the pencils look down on the TV muffins, but no one cares.
I met a guy once who told me a vastly entertaining version of this for orchestras, listing every instrument in order with reasons why each one looked down on the next. I don't really remember how it went, something about violinists barely deigning to speak to the viola players and so on, but I laughed and laughed. Sadly, I never saw him again and never got the story repeated so I could remember it.
posted by CunningLinguist at 1:52 PM on May 24, 2012
I met a guy once who told me a vastly entertaining version of this for orchestras, listing every instrument in order with reasons why each one looked down on the next. I don't really remember how it went, something about violinists barely deigning to speak to the viola players and so on, but I laughed and laughed. Sadly, I never saw him again and never got the story repeated so I could remember it.
posted by CunningLinguist at 1:52 PM on May 24, 2012
To answer your question about bus operators vs. train operators--at my agency, we frequently have bus folk apply to become TOs--rarely (never?) happens in the reverse. There is a very difficult entrance exam to become a TO and then a 15-week training class.
This is a very Operations-centric organization so I'd say our Train Controllers (air traffic controllers for trains) are probably the elite of our Operations group.
I'm in Mar/Comm so I'm an "admin weenie" and pretty low on the status pole--though after 10 years here I've earned some grudging respect from the OPs.
posted by agatha_magatha at 2:05 PM on May 24, 2012
This is a very Operations-centric organization so I'd say our Train Controllers (air traffic controllers for trains) are probably the elite of our Operations group.
I'm in Mar/Comm so I'm an "admin weenie" and pretty low on the status pole--though after 10 years here I've earned some grudging respect from the OPs.
posted by agatha_magatha at 2:05 PM on May 24, 2012
Print journalists vs. broadcast journalists
The aforementioned attorney categories, especially interesting because the money doesn't necessarily match up to the "superior" groups
I'm sure there's some kind of music industry examples (real music vs. hacks vs. whatever)
posted by Pax at 2:17 PM on May 24, 2012
The aforementioned attorney categories, especially interesting because the money doesn't necessarily match up to the "superior" groups
I'm sure there's some kind of music industry examples (real music vs. hacks vs. whatever)
posted by Pax at 2:17 PM on May 24, 2012
Ski resort staff:
Ski Patrollers
Snowmakers
Groomers
Instructors
Lift Operators
Ticket scanners
Ambassadors
Rental shop staff
Parking Staff
Ticket sellers
Food and bev
Foreign food and bev
Janitorial
On mountains where ski patrollers are regularly saving lives in awesome ways--repelling down cliffs, playing with bombs for avi control, etc, their top-dog status is far more assured. On more podunk mountains, they get less respect. Instructors and lifties are pretty close in rank, instructors are the "poodles" vs. "liftie scum". Also, this list ignores people that work in offices all day, because they are in a whole different world.
There's also a hierarchy of the skiers themselves, the top being park pros or big mountain pros (depending on the scene at the given mountain) down to gapers (tourists with jeans tucked into their boots and terrifyingly bad skiing ability), but it'd be a long and nuanced list.
posted by Grandysaur at 3:05 PM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Ski Patrollers
Snowmakers
Groomers
Instructors
Lift Operators
Ticket scanners
Ambassadors
Rental shop staff
Parking Staff
Ticket sellers
Food and bev
Foreign food and bev
Janitorial
On mountains where ski patrollers are regularly saving lives in awesome ways--repelling down cliffs, playing with bombs for avi control, etc, their top-dog status is far more assured. On more podunk mountains, they get less respect. Instructors and lifties are pretty close in rank, instructors are the "poodles" vs. "liftie scum". Also, this list ignores people that work in offices all day, because they are in a whole different world.
There's also a hierarchy of the skiers themselves, the top being park pros or big mountain pros (depending on the scene at the given mountain) down to gapers (tourists with jeans tucked into their boots and terrifyingly bad skiing ability), but it'd be a long and nuanced list.
posted by Grandysaur at 3:05 PM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Psychiatrists (MD) > Psychologist (Ph.D.) > MFT > Social worker > Life Coach
Stupid, but accurate. I once worked with the director of a psych ward (MD) who told me that if you really want to meet the people making a difference, talk to the social workers and the nurses. Probably true.
posted by namesarehard at 5:19 PM on May 24, 2012
Stupid, but accurate. I once worked with the director of a psych ward (MD) who told me that if you really want to meet the people making a difference, talk to the social workers and the nurses. Probably true.
posted by namesarehard at 5:19 PM on May 24, 2012
Mmm, first you've got librarians>paraprofessionals (where 'paraprofessional' is any staff member at a library who isn't a librarian, such as a copy cataloger or circulation clerk)
Then, within librarians I'd say it's:
academic librarians>
public librarians>
corporate and special librarians>
school librarians
If you're talking in terms of who's most fun to hang out with after-hours at a conference, that's:
public librarians.........(long gap)
academic librarians>
corporate/special librarians>
school librarians
(Public librarians know all the best bars and are likely to be in them till last call)
Also, at Legoland (in contrast to Disneyland):
Master builders>
People who handle the VIPs/other top-level staff>
Retail workers>
Ride attendants>
Ticket sellers/takers>
Food service>
Trash pick up folks
Within Legoland, blueshirts always outranked other polo shirts (and blueshirts with lots of keys and a walkie outranked blueshirts without those things) and no polos always outranked polo wearers of any stripe including blue.
posted by librarylis at 9:24 PM on May 24, 2012
Then, within librarians I'd say it's:
academic librarians>
public librarians>
corporate and special librarians>
school librarians
If you're talking in terms of who's most fun to hang out with after-hours at a conference, that's:
public librarians.........(long gap)
academic librarians>
corporate/special librarians>
school librarians
(Public librarians know all the best bars and are likely to be in them till last call)
Also, at Legoland (in contrast to Disneyland):
Master builders>
People who handle the VIPs/other top-level staff>
Retail workers>
Ride attendants>
Ticket sellers/takers>
Food service>
Trash pick up folks
Within Legoland, blueshirts always outranked other polo shirts (and blueshirts with lots of keys and a walkie outranked blueshirts without those things) and no polos always outranked polo wearers of any stripe including blue.
posted by librarylis at 9:24 PM on May 24, 2012
In startup world:
-Super rich head of VC firms (eg Fred Wilson, Marc Andresson)
-Super rich founders of cool companies
-Super rich company founders
-Cool company founders
-Super rich early-stage employees at companies now worth zillions
-VCs with great track records
-Successful serial angel investors (usually one of the above)
-Head of engineering (or other exec) at cool companies
-Exec at uncool company
-Founders of any startup you've heard of
-Famous tech bloggers
-Famous tech journalists
-Rank and file employees at cool companies (engineering ranked highest, maybe a super sharp designer, lowest is marketing/community management)
-People who are super good friends with the above and go to all the VIP tech parties and rent houses with them in Tahoe and whatnot
-People who run tech meetups/parties
-Rank and file employee at Google
-Rank and file employee at uncool huge SV company like Microsoft or Oracle
-People who go to tech parties a lot and hand out business cards
-People who go to tech parties anywhere other than NYC or SF/SV and hand out business cards
-People who read TechCrunch and Mashable and dream of meeting Hot Founder of the Moment, and then treat them all weird like a celebrity when they meet them at SXSW
posted by alicetiara at 9:53 PM on May 24, 2012
-Super rich head of VC firms (eg Fred Wilson, Marc Andresson)
-Super rich founders of cool companies
-Super rich company founders
-Cool company founders
-Super rich early-stage employees at companies now worth zillions
-VCs with great track records
-Successful serial angel investors (usually one of the above)
-Head of engineering (or other exec) at cool companies
-Exec at uncool company
-Founders of any startup you've heard of
-Famous tech bloggers
-Famous tech journalists
-Rank and file employees at cool companies (engineering ranked highest, maybe a super sharp designer, lowest is marketing/community management)
-People who are super good friends with the above and go to all the VIP tech parties and rent houses with them in Tahoe and whatnot
-People who run tech meetups/parties
-Rank and file employee at Google
-Rank and file employee at uncool huge SV company like Microsoft or Oracle
-People who go to tech parties a lot and hand out business cards
-People who go to tech parties anywhere other than NYC or SF/SV and hand out business cards
-People who read TechCrunch and Mashable and dream of meeting Hot Founder of the Moment, and then treat them all weird like a celebrity when they meet them at SXSW
posted by alicetiara at 9:53 PM on May 24, 2012
large tech company:
Board of Directors
CEO
CTO
CFO
COO
Director
Manager
Fellow(Engineer/Scientist)
Principal(Engineer/Scientist)
Sr. Staff
Staff(I/II/III)(Engineer/Scientist)
Technician
Internposted by Golden Eternity at 10:08 PM on May 24, 2012
Oops. Messed up the indentation, which is intended to indicate level of heirarchy.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:19 PM on May 24, 2012
Board of Directors
CEO
CTO
CFO
COO
VP
Director
Manager
Fellow(Engineer/Scientist)
Principal(Engineer/Scientist)
Sr. Staff (Engineer/Scientist)
Staff(I/II/III)(Engineer/Scientist)
Technician
Internposted by Golden Eternity at 10:19 PM on May 24, 2012
The writer Tom Wolfe is exquisitely sensitive to these hierarchies, which are laid out explicitly in all of his fiction and nearly all of his nonfiction.
posted by Surprised By Bees at 5:49 AM on May 25, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Surprised By Bees at 5:49 AM on May 25, 2012 [1 favorite]
I worked for a top-drawer architectural firm in Boston for a while, and here's what I saw: Architects hold themselves aloof from mere engineers (mechanical, etc.), while both look down on interior designers. And then all three draw together in mild horror when they find themselves among the so-called Computer Department, especially The Fallen who had gone to architecture school but had since lowered themselves to work only with the infernal machines.
The model makers were revered for being clever elves, the marketing "girls" (which they all were) were found amusing, and a special room is set aside for those nice ladies who do the books.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:11 AM on May 25, 2012
The model makers were revered for being clever elves, the marketing "girls" (which they all were) were found amusing, and a special room is set aside for those nice ladies who do the books.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:11 AM on May 25, 2012
I can't figure if this is us versus them example, but people without an accent feel superior to people with an accent.
posted by francesca too at 9:32 AM on May 24 [+] [!]
Everyone has an accent. It only matters where you are, and where you're from.
On that note. I found when I lived in the Southern part of the US, that the further north one is in the South, the more disdain one has for their Southern neighbors. For example, along the coast, Maryland >Virginia > North Carolina > South Carolina > Georgia > Florida. And no one wants to be from Louisiana (unless you're from Louisiana). However, depending on who you ask, Virginia and Florida can also be treated with contempt and dismissed as "not Southern" which I never understood because one cannot get more south in the US than Florida, but what do I know.
Along those lines, it was much better to be from Virginia than West Virginia, but they'd rather be a hick from West Virginia than some ignorant trailer trash punk from Mississippi, and everyone I met down there would rather be from "The South" than a Yankee, thank you very much.
Also noted in my travels around the US, most people in the Western US don't care much for Californians, but Californians don't really care because California is the best state of the bunch. Also, it's much better to be from Northern California (personal bias) than from Southern California, but I'm sure someone from Southern California will feel different.
posted by patheral at 10:03 AM on May 25, 2012
posted by francesca too at 9:32 AM on May 24 [+] [!]
Everyone has an accent. It only matters where you are, and where you're from.
On that note. I found when I lived in the Southern part of the US, that the further north one is in the South, the more disdain one has for their Southern neighbors. For example, along the coast, Maryland >Virginia > North Carolina > South Carolina > Georgia > Florida. And no one wants to be from Louisiana (unless you're from Louisiana). However, depending on who you ask, Virginia and Florida can also be treated with contempt and dismissed as "not Southern" which I never understood because one cannot get more south in the US than Florida, but what do I know.
Along those lines, it was much better to be from Virginia than West Virginia, but they'd rather be a hick from West Virginia than some ignorant trailer trash punk from Mississippi, and everyone I met down there would rather be from "The South" than a Yankee, thank you very much.
Also noted in my travels around the US, most people in the Western US don't care much for Californians, but Californians don't really care because California is the best state of the bunch. Also, it's much better to be from Northern California (personal bias) than from Southern California, but I'm sure someone from Southern California will feel different.
posted by patheral at 10:03 AM on May 25, 2012
I lurk a lot but rarely comment - but this is a FASCINATING thread.
Here's my take on the U.S. scientific research ship hierarchy (though there's definitely more hierarchies within each level):
Captain
Chief scientist
Deck officers/chief engineer
Other lead scientists (PIs)
Specialized shipboard technicians
Grad students/regular technicians
Deck crew/engineers/galley
Volunteers
posted by ilyanassa at 10:56 AM on May 25, 2012
Here's my take on the U.S. scientific research ship hierarchy (though there's definitely more hierarchies within each level):
Captain
Chief scientist
Deck officers/chief engineer
Other lead scientists (PIs)
Specialized shipboard technicians
Grad students/regular technicians
Deck crew/engineers/galley
Volunteers
posted by ilyanassa at 10:56 AM on May 25, 2012
Management
Programmers (who now prefer the term Developers)
Maintenance Programmers
Software Testing / QA
Documentation / Tech Pubs
Users / Customers
Marketing fits in there somewhere, if it's a commercial organization -- by reading Dilbert, my impression is Marketers feels superior to Programmers and Programmers feel superior to Marketers.
Also, the SysAdmins would place themselves between management and the programmers, and management tends to agree; but programmers look down on SysAdmins.
posted by Rash at 1:18 PM on May 25, 2012
Programmers (who now prefer the term Developers)
Maintenance Programmers
Software Testing / QA
Documentation / Tech Pubs
Users / Customers
Marketing fits in there somewhere, if it's a commercial organization -- by reading Dilbert, my impression is Marketers feels superior to Programmers and Programmers feel superior to Marketers.
Also, the SysAdmins would place themselves between management and the programmers, and management tends to agree; but programmers look down on SysAdmins.
posted by Rash at 1:18 PM on May 25, 2012
In radio, everyone on staff thinks they're in the best possible position. It's like a universe of solar systems inhabitied by civilizations who have never heard of Copernicus. In radioland, everyone is comfortable because each person really believes the sun revolves around their own ass. In that sense it's a democratic environment, although delusional.
On-air people are the loudest and take up the most air in the room, but they're still in thrall to their immediate managers (who often know nothing about radio) and the general manager (ditto).
The GM is the most powerful person under the owner (or owning entity), but also frequently the most-disliked.
The board members seem to float above everyone else in a stratum where their relevance or irrelevance just isn't an issue. Most have never met the on-air staff at their stations, and some don't even know the names of the on-air staff, which reveals that they don't actually even listen to the station they consult on. Board members are an elite of moneyed folk with some influence in the community. They're treated with awe and their decisions, often capricious and random, are rooted in personal issues and prejudices. They're clueless about technology - although if anyone does raise their hand and volunteer technological advice or new media initiatives, they're quickly muzzled - so maybe it's not their fault. Board members expect the lower-level folks to jump when they say jump. They're stupid and ungrateful as a rule, but their are exceptions. I once got a thank-you note from a board member - but this is rare.
In commercial radio, the salespeople have more status than anyone except the managers, since they bring in money. Salespeople often don't listen to the station they're selling time on.
The managers have more status than anyone else, because their will must be obeyed. They hire and fire, but not symetrically. Radio managers mostly fire or lay off their employees, without replacing them.
The HR folks, financial director, fundrasing deities and godlets, assistant to the GM, all think they shit gold bricks because they deal with money. It makes them feel important.
The producers think they rock because they're dealing with sound, man. It's the irreducible essence. Whether they have an artiste approach to production or a workmanlike pancake-flipper approach, the producers (who are very close to the product and control the sound of the station) feel they inhabit a privileged locale in the radio universe, and are often full of contempt for everyone else.
The admin staff hate the on-air folk - think they're a bunch of entitled diva whiners.
Promotions people, if they exist, can be wonderful supporters of the staff when they're talented, energetic, and supported by management.
As nutty as radio is, it's still a world in which a motely crew of whackos can still come together as a group and create a consensus that strikes to the heart of reality. It's hard to fake competence and skate on charm in this environment. Management will often try to do an Orwellian switcheroo in order to improve morale, or to raise a favored lackey in the esteem of the group. The group has often already handed down a verdict, so the after-the-fact scrambling is doomed to failure. So - somebody whose massive incompetence or bad attitude is bringing down the whole team, will be ostentatiously singled out for praise in a meeting: "Thanks for getting those staples straight, Darla! Your handouts really rock this time!" Attempts by management to change perception around a given problem person is always noted and resented as legerdemain. The bosses really ought to stop trying to do that. It never works.
posted by cartoonella at 10:12 AM on May 26, 2012
On-air people are the loudest and take up the most air in the room, but they're still in thrall to their immediate managers (who often know nothing about radio) and the general manager (ditto).
The GM is the most powerful person under the owner (or owning entity), but also frequently the most-disliked.
The board members seem to float above everyone else in a stratum where their relevance or irrelevance just isn't an issue. Most have never met the on-air staff at their stations, and some don't even know the names of the on-air staff, which reveals that they don't actually even listen to the station they consult on. Board members are an elite of moneyed folk with some influence in the community. They're treated with awe and their decisions, often capricious and random, are rooted in personal issues and prejudices. They're clueless about technology - although if anyone does raise their hand and volunteer technological advice or new media initiatives, they're quickly muzzled - so maybe it's not their fault. Board members expect the lower-level folks to jump when they say jump. They're stupid and ungrateful as a rule, but their are exceptions. I once got a thank-you note from a board member - but this is rare.
In commercial radio, the salespeople have more status than anyone except the managers, since they bring in money. Salespeople often don't listen to the station they're selling time on.
The managers have more status than anyone else, because their will must be obeyed. They hire and fire, but not symetrically. Radio managers mostly fire or lay off their employees, without replacing them.
The HR folks, financial director, fundrasing deities and godlets, assistant to the GM, all think they shit gold bricks because they deal with money. It makes them feel important.
The producers think they rock because they're dealing with sound, man. It's the irreducible essence. Whether they have an artiste approach to production or a workmanlike pancake-flipper approach, the producers (who are very close to the product and control the sound of the station) feel they inhabit a privileged locale in the radio universe, and are often full of contempt for everyone else.
The admin staff hate the on-air folk - think they're a bunch of entitled diva whiners.
Promotions people, if they exist, can be wonderful supporters of the staff when they're talented, energetic, and supported by management.
As nutty as radio is, it's still a world in which a motely crew of whackos can still come together as a group and create a consensus that strikes to the heart of reality. It's hard to fake competence and skate on charm in this environment. Management will often try to do an Orwellian switcheroo in order to improve morale, or to raise a favored lackey in the esteem of the group. The group has often already handed down a verdict, so the after-the-fact scrambling is doomed to failure. So - somebody whose massive incompetence or bad attitude is bringing down the whole team, will be ostentatiously singled out for praise in a meeting: "Thanks for getting those staples straight, Darla! Your handouts really rock this time!" Attempts by management to change perception around a given problem person is always noted and resented as legerdemain. The bosses really ought to stop trying to do that. It never works.
posted by cartoonella at 10:12 AM on May 26, 2012
Wikipedians have a surprising amount of social structure.
-Board members (Board of Trustees, who administrate the Wikimedia Foundation, which runs Wikipedia and its sister projects)
-Arbitrators (a judicial panel who are charged with evaluating the most serious disputes)
-Checkusers (those who can investigate privacy-related info that others can't see)
-Oversighters (those who can remove edits permanently from page histories)
-Administrators (can block others and protect pages)
-Rollbackers/autopatrolled (minor advanced rights that let you manipulate others edits or have yours automatically approved)
-Plain old editor, with no advanced rights
There's some jostling for spots within this, and the party line is that all editors are equal, no matter what the advanced rights, but when it comes to clout in discussions, this is roughly how it falls.
posted by badgermushroomSNAKE at 6:48 PM on May 26, 2012
-Board members (Board of Trustees, who administrate the Wikimedia Foundation, which runs Wikipedia and its sister projects)
-Arbitrators (a judicial panel who are charged with evaluating the most serious disputes)
-Checkusers (those who can investigate privacy-related info that others can't see)
-Oversighters (those who can remove edits permanently from page histories)
-Administrators (can block others and protect pages)
-Rollbackers/autopatrolled (minor advanced rights that let you manipulate others edits or have yours automatically approved)
-Plain old editor, with no advanced rights
There's some jostling for spots within this, and the party line is that all editors are equal, no matter what the advanced rights, but when it comes to clout in discussions, this is roughly how it falls.
posted by badgermushroomSNAKE at 6:48 PM on May 26, 2012
And, having shared with some Wikipedian friends that I was posting in this thread, I have been advised to share with you this link, detailing Wikipedia as if it were an MMORPG.
posted by badgermushroomSNAKE at 7:07 PM on May 26, 2012
posted by badgermushroomSNAKE at 7:07 PM on May 26, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by jsturgill at 7:07 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]