Preparing for Law School App
May 19, 2012 6:35 AM Subscribe
What can I do to prepare for applying to law school?
Some background: I just graduated from UC Berkeley with a degree in English. I did an honors thesis and graduated summa cum laude (3.93). I'm a non-traditional transfer student; 27 and married with 3 children.
I've decided to go to law school. It's always been on the table, but I just decided in the last few weeks that it's something I'm definitely going to pursue.
I have two main questions, but any other thoughts/advice you might have for someone in my position, please feel free to share! (As long as it's not an overwhelming chorus of "don't go." I've read a lot of those threads!)
1) What are my chances of getting into UC Berkeley Law? And 2) what kinds of things could I be doing in the next 6-9 months (before I apply) to possibly strengthen my application?
Some background: I just graduated from UC Berkeley with a degree in English. I did an honors thesis and graduated summa cum laude (3.93). I'm a non-traditional transfer student; 27 and married with 3 children.
I've decided to go to law school. It's always been on the table, but I just decided in the last few weeks that it's something I'm definitely going to pursue.
I have two main questions, but any other thoughts/advice you might have for someone in my position, please feel free to share! (As long as it's not an overwhelming chorus of "don't go." I've read a lot of those threads!)
1) What are my chances of getting into UC Berkeley Law? And 2) what kinds of things could I be doing in the next 6-9 months (before I apply) to possibly strengthen my application?
Your GPA is good, so, yeah, LSAT LSAT LSAT. Admission even at the top programs is almost exclusively a function of those two inputs only.
posted by gerryblog at 6:46 AM on May 19, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by gerryblog at 6:46 AM on May 19, 2012 [1 favorite]
Given your GPA and the prestige of the institution from which you graduated, you should be aiming for an LSAT score >170 and one of the top three or four schools...otherwise law school will be a crap shoot for you.
Employment prospects for lawyers are almost uniformly awful, though less so for graduates of the top schools.
What do you want to do with a law degree?
posted by dfriedman at 6:49 AM on May 19, 2012
Employment prospects for lawyers are almost uniformly awful, though less so for graduates of the top schools.
What do you want to do with a law degree?
posted by dfriedman at 6:49 AM on May 19, 2012
LSAT. And do a lot of chores for your family, in the consideration that you won't be doing a lot for three years' worth of studying.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:01 AM on May 19, 2012
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:01 AM on May 19, 2012
A quick google shows that the 75th percentile of admitted students have a GPA of 3.88 (so you're good) and an LSAT of 169 (so yes, STUDY!). Cite. The higher your numbers, the better your chance of admission.
It would also be great to volunteer at a legal something in your area of interest - like a legal aid clinic, or a politician's office, or a nonprofit. This will be more doable if you are interested in public interest law, and less doable if you are interested in corporate law.
posted by insectosaurus at 7:02 AM on May 19, 2012
It would also be great to volunteer at a legal something in your area of interest - like a legal aid clinic, or a politician's office, or a nonprofit. This will be more doable if you are interested in public interest law, and less doable if you are interested in corporate law.
posted by insectosaurus at 7:02 AM on May 19, 2012
1) What are my chances of getting into UC Berkeley Law?
We can't answer this since we don't know your LSAT score. If you get a good enough LSAT score, you should look at even better schools than that, considering your fantastic GPA. We also don't know your race, which is generally relevant to law school admission, though not to Berkeley (California schools can't use racial preferences).
2) what kinds of things could I be doing in the next 6-9 months (before I apply) to possibly strengthen my application?
Look up when the LSAT is given, and figure out when you need to take it in order to find out your score before you even start applying to law schools. Get the books full of actual LSATs and study from those. Don't waste your money on a course. You need to figure out the reasoning for yourself based on logic and hard work, not gimmicks. Take the LSAT with a positive attitude, not cynicism. This was my approach and it got me into Cornell Law School.
posted by John Cohen at 7:09 AM on May 19, 2012
We can't answer this since we don't know your LSAT score. If you get a good enough LSAT score, you should look at even better schools than that, considering your fantastic GPA. We also don't know your race, which is generally relevant to law school admission, though not to Berkeley (California schools can't use racial preferences).
2) what kinds of things could I be doing in the next 6-9 months (before I apply) to possibly strengthen my application?
Look up when the LSAT is given, and figure out when you need to take it in order to find out your score before you even start applying to law schools. Get the books full of actual LSATs and study from those. Don't waste your money on a course. You need to figure out the reasoning for yourself based on logic and hard work, not gimmicks. Take the LSAT with a positive attitude, not cynicism. This was my approach and it got me into Cornell Law School.
posted by John Cohen at 7:09 AM on May 19, 2012
I have heard that Kaplan's LSAT course is fantastic if you can afford it, especially the tutoring. I'm going to save up so that I can take it when I apply to law school. I keep hearing how important the LSAT score is. That being said, if I can't afford it, I'm very prepared to bust my butt with old-school book study.
For what it's worth, I know Kaplan offers free events wherein you take a practice LSAT in a "realistic test setting" and receive a score. (And then Kaplan tries to convince you to take a course with them because the whole thing is a promotional tool, of course.) Even if I can't afford the course, I'll do the free test sitting because I think having had the experience of taking a practice LSAT in a room with other people will make me a little less nervous on the actual test day.
Also, I don't know how logistically feasible this is for you, but I would recommend taking a legal-related internship if possible. Networking is so important. I am so glad that I started an internship last summer! I made so many connections and learned so much about law school, both in terms of the application process and what happens once you're there.
** I am not a lawyer. I spend plenty of time around them and I am basically parroting the advice of some that I admire.
posted by hypotheticole at 7:30 AM on May 19, 2012 [1 favorite]
For what it's worth, I know Kaplan offers free events wherein you take a practice LSAT in a "realistic test setting" and receive a score. (And then Kaplan tries to convince you to take a course with them because the whole thing is a promotional tool, of course.) Even if I can't afford the course, I'll do the free test sitting because I think having had the experience of taking a practice LSAT in a room with other people will make me a little less nervous on the actual test day.
Also, I don't know how logistically feasible this is for you, but I would recommend taking a legal-related internship if possible. Networking is so important. I am so glad that I started an internship last summer! I made so many connections and learned so much about law school, both in terms of the application process and what happens once you're there.
** I am not a lawyer. I spend plenty of time around them and I am basically parroting the advice of some that I admire.
posted by hypotheticole at 7:30 AM on May 19, 2012 [1 favorite]
I've decided to go to law school.
I'd re-frame this as you've decided to apply to law schools. If you don't score over 170 on the LSAT and/or don't gain admission from a top 10 or 20 law school, you should reconsider the cost/benefit analysis. I'm going to guess you're in CA and have your sights set on UC Berkeley because it will mean you don't have to uproot your house, spouse and kids. That's great but practically, it should put you in the mindset of "Berkeley or bust" - no 2nd tier CA law schools just because of the kids - so yeah: LSAT.
The LSAT is also a good test of your family's fortitude for this path, btw. I say this coming from a family a lot like yours: married, three kids, dad went to law school at 40. We didn't see him for quite a few years but as a family we were well suited to weather this. He had a lot of classmates who dropped out during 1L for family reasons and even more who got divorced during the associate years.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:30 AM on May 19, 2012 [3 favorites]
I'd re-frame this as you've decided to apply to law schools. If you don't score over 170 on the LSAT and/or don't gain admission from a top 10 or 20 law school, you should reconsider the cost/benefit analysis. I'm going to guess you're in CA and have your sights set on UC Berkeley because it will mean you don't have to uproot your house, spouse and kids. That's great but practically, it should put you in the mindset of "Berkeley or bust" - no 2nd tier CA law schools just because of the kids - so yeah: LSAT.
The LSAT is also a good test of your family's fortitude for this path, btw. I say this coming from a family a lot like yours: married, three kids, dad went to law school at 40. We didn't see him for quite a few years but as a family we were well suited to weather this. He had a lot of classmates who dropped out during 1L for family reasons and even more who got divorced during the associate years.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:30 AM on May 19, 2012 [3 favorites]
I'm at a top-tier law school currently (not Berkeley). My understanding is that Berkeley is an oddity in that it cares more about grades than LSAT, but it obviously cares about LSAT as well, and wants people who can score 168+.
Perhaps the most important thing (besides the usual) is APPLY EARLY! Law schools admit people on a rolling basis, so the earlier you can apply the better. Unless you're planning on taking the June LSAT it's probably too late to apply this year.
On the topic of LSAT, it's miserable, but spend lots of time on it and do a ton of practice tests. I took a course (Powerscore) online, but found that a few sessions with a 1-on-1 tutor were more helpful. Take at least 30 practice tests before you get in there, and make sure you're consistently in the 170s before you take the real test.
Spend a lot of time on your applications and personal statements, especially for your top schools. Visit law schools and sign your name so they know you're interested (although won't be an issue if you went to Berkeley undergrad). Try your best to set up meetings with admissions officers, even if they don't offer interviews - I did this at my current school and I bet it was helpful.
In terms of resume, I'm sure they like to see some legal experience, but I would guess it's a secondary concern. You're better off taking some time off and getting your LSAT score up than taking on a legal internship as a resume filler, in my opinion.
Feel free to memail me if you have any more questions. Good luck!
posted by iamscott at 8:50 AM on May 19, 2012
Perhaps the most important thing (besides the usual) is APPLY EARLY! Law schools admit people on a rolling basis, so the earlier you can apply the better. Unless you're planning on taking the June LSAT it's probably too late to apply this year.
On the topic of LSAT, it's miserable, but spend lots of time on it and do a ton of practice tests. I took a course (Powerscore) online, but found that a few sessions with a 1-on-1 tutor were more helpful. Take at least 30 practice tests before you get in there, and make sure you're consistently in the 170s before you take the real test.
Spend a lot of time on your applications and personal statements, especially for your top schools. Visit law schools and sign your name so they know you're interested (although won't be an issue if you went to Berkeley undergrad). Try your best to set up meetings with admissions officers, even if they don't offer interviews - I did this at my current school and I bet it was helpful.
In terms of resume, I'm sure they like to see some legal experience, but I would guess it's a secondary concern. You're better off taking some time off and getting your LSAT score up than taking on a legal internship as a resume filler, in my opinion.
Feel free to memail me if you have any more questions. Good luck!
posted by iamscott at 8:50 AM on May 19, 2012
I agree with the top-tier-or-bust idea. If you don't get into Boalt or the equivalent, by all means do not go across the bay to the doomed UC Hastings.
posted by steinsaltz at 8:57 AM on May 19, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by steinsaltz at 8:57 AM on May 19, 2012 [1 favorite]
Looking at Law School Numbers (a self-reported admissions results site), it looks like you'll need an LSAT score of 170 or above to have a reasonable chance of admission. It's not impossible with a lower score, but that's roughly the transition point for people with GPAs similar to yours.
As for other things to do: by far your best return on investment will come from studying for the LSAT. Studying can and will improve your score. Every point you increase your score by is likely to increase your scholarship award, and every dollar you don't have to borrow is 2 dollars you don't have to pay in interest. If possible, I would basically study full time until you can consistently score high enough to be offered a full tuition scholarship.
Of course, I cannot in good conscience recommend attending any law school unless you are offered a full scholarship, can afford to pay cash, or are guaranteed a job upon graduation (e.g. by a relative).
posted by jedicus at 9:28 AM on May 19, 2012
As for other things to do: by far your best return on investment will come from studying for the LSAT. Studying can and will improve your score. Every point you increase your score by is likely to increase your scholarship award, and every dollar you don't have to borrow is 2 dollars you don't have to pay in interest. If possible, I would basically study full time until you can consistently score high enough to be offered a full tuition scholarship.
Of course, I cannot in good conscience recommend attending any law school unless you are offered a full scholarship, can afford to pay cash, or are guaranteed a job upon graduation (e.g. by a relative).
posted by jedicus at 9:28 AM on May 19, 2012
If that 3.93 is your Cal grades, you're looking pretty good along with a 170+ LSAT. If that includes community college grades and your Cal-only GPA is lower, might be a bit tougher, but still not weak by any means.
I strongly suggest you move up your timeframe to apply this year, i.e. prep for the LSAT this summer and apply this fall. The volume and tempo of "young law grads in a world of pain" stories in the news is going to take some people out of the high end of the pool. By the 2013-2014 application season that noise could have faded, or law schools could start to take action like reducing classes that would reduce the advantage.
When you're thinking about Boalt, it's important to realize that one key element that drove its reputational advantage -- the huge tuition discount that caused people with admissions at Columbia, Chicago and NYU to go there instead -- has been mostly eliminated. It would not surprise me to see Boalt start to drop in the rankings a bit (in US News, and in employer recruiting priority) when that admissions edge no longer is reflected in average GPA and LSAT stats.
posted by MattD at 11:12 AM on May 19, 2012
I strongly suggest you move up your timeframe to apply this year, i.e. prep for the LSAT this summer and apply this fall. The volume and tempo of "young law grads in a world of pain" stories in the news is going to take some people out of the high end of the pool. By the 2013-2014 application season that noise could have faded, or law schools could start to take action like reducing classes that would reduce the advantage.
When you're thinking about Boalt, it's important to realize that one key element that drove its reputational advantage -- the huge tuition discount that caused people with admissions at Columbia, Chicago and NYU to go there instead -- has been mostly eliminated. It would not surprise me to see Boalt start to drop in the rankings a bit (in US News, and in employer recruiting priority) when that admissions edge no longer is reflected in average GPA and LSAT stats.
posted by MattD at 11:12 AM on May 19, 2012
The Ivey Guide to Law School Admissions was written by a former admissions dean at a top law school. It's a nice overview of the admissions process as a whole. You could also read the articles and forums at top-law-schools.com, though the latter will force you to wade through a lot of nonsense to get at the good advice.
One thing to keep in mind, your 3.93 GPA is great, but when you apply to law school, your Cal GPA will be combined with any and all college course work you have done anywhere else, that combined undergraduate GPA will be the only number that really matters GPA-wise. So if you had a few semesters of community college or a rough first year at your first university, that can really drop that high GPA quickly. I think this is a ridiculous system, but there's nothing to be done about it.
Which all goes to suggest that everyone here right, you need to study like mad for the LSAT. If you hope to begin law school in the fall of 2013, you need to start studying now, try to take the test October LSAT. Taking the test in December would put you at a significant disadvantage because you wouldn't be able to apply until after the Christmas rush.
I'm not a lawyer or law student, but have gone through the process and teach LSAT classes for a living. It's really hard to overstate how important your performance on the LSAT is to your legal career. If you are really serious about going to law school, you need to make studying your number one priority for a few months. Many people spend 100-200 hours preparing for this test, only a few people can manage a top score with 10-20 hours of practice. It's a really silly system when you think about it, but a 3-4 point increase can be the difference between being waitlisted/rejected and acceptance with a large scholarship.
Lastly, be aware that for most people, not going to law school is the best choice. Until you take the LSAT, you can't really know whether or not it is a reasonable choice for you.
posted by skewed at 11:51 AM on May 19, 2012 [1 favorite]
One thing to keep in mind, your 3.93 GPA is great, but when you apply to law school, your Cal GPA will be combined with any and all college course work you have done anywhere else, that combined undergraduate GPA will be the only number that really matters GPA-wise. So if you had a few semesters of community college or a rough first year at your first university, that can really drop that high GPA quickly. I think this is a ridiculous system, but there's nothing to be done about it.
Which all goes to suggest that everyone here right, you need to study like mad for the LSAT. If you hope to begin law school in the fall of 2013, you need to start studying now, try to take the test October LSAT. Taking the test in December would put you at a significant disadvantage because you wouldn't be able to apply until after the Christmas rush.
I'm not a lawyer or law student, but have gone through the process and teach LSAT classes for a living. It's really hard to overstate how important your performance on the LSAT is to your legal career. If you are really serious about going to law school, you need to make studying your number one priority for a few months. Many people spend 100-200 hours preparing for this test, only a few people can manage a top score with 10-20 hours of practice. It's a really silly system when you think about it, but a 3-4 point increase can be the difference between being waitlisted/rejected and acceptance with a large scholarship.
Lastly, be aware that for most people, not going to law school is the best choice. Until you take the LSAT, you can't really know whether or not it is a reasonable choice for you.
posted by skewed at 11:51 AM on May 19, 2012 [1 favorite]
Mod note: From the OP:
"Thanks everyone! Lots of helpful info here. I'm really concerned about my GPA now that I understand (I think) how it will be calculated, based on skewed's comments and my perusal of the LSAC site just now. The 3.93 is just my two years at Cal. 10 years ago I screwed around at a community college right out of high school and wasted several semesters dropping classes and getting lots of Fs (for dropping past the deadline, not that it matters). I moved, took a break from school for a few years, started at a different cc and got all As. I did 99% of my lower division work at this school (I think I had a grand total of 1 class that was used from the first cc when I transferred to Cal). Since so many years had passed, I was eligible for academic renewal and got the Fs bracketed at the first cc -- but I understand now that LSAC counts those regardless.posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 1:50 PM on May 19, 2012
I found an LSAC calculator and see that my cumulative GPA for all cc classes (including bracketed Fs) is now a horrifyingly low 3.35. I would have mentioned all this in the question but I had no idea that those grades would be included. I knew that they'd be visible, but I'd hoped my recent performance would be more heavily emphasized and that I'd be able to shrug the old grades off as something I'd moved beyond (as I did in applying to Cal). Now I'm realizing law school admissions committees might not even take a further look at the upward trajectory of my GPA if the first thing they see is the cumulative 3.35. Am I missing anything here? I guess I'm just looking for perspective. Darlingbri is right that it's Berkeley or bust due to my not being sure I could move the family around. And it seems based on the answers here that Berkeley Law weighs GPA higher than LSAT. On the other hand, maybe having gone to Cal for undergrad will work in my favor? Do I just try to ace the LSAT and consider writing an explanatory letter ("um, I was lazy and shortsighted ten years ago?") or are my chances pretty much shot?"
Your LSAC GPA is probably going to hurt. I was 29 when I applied to law school, and my decade-old Cs in science classes back when I thought I could be some kind of engineer put me out of the running at some schools, and likely diminished my scholarship at the school I chose.
But my LSAT score made sure that I did get into a good school with a good scholarship. I studied the Powerscore logic games book until I could ace any logic games section that came along. Then I took every practice test in existence, timed and in public. I spent three months doing this, before work and during my lunch breaks.
When a school admits you, and especially if a school offers you a scholarship, that school is essentially buying the use of your GPA and LSAT numbers. If your GPA is going to be underneath the 25th percentile, then you want your LSAT to be over the 75th percentile for sure. Ace the LSAT.
posted by Handstand Devil at 2:40 PM on May 19, 2012
But my LSAT score made sure that I did get into a good school with a good scholarship. I studied the Powerscore logic games book until I could ace any logic games section that came along. Then I took every practice test in existence, timed and in public. I spent three months doing this, before work and during my lunch breaks.
When a school admits you, and especially if a school offers you a scholarship, that school is essentially buying the use of your GPA and LSAT numbers. If your GPA is going to be underneath the 25th percentile, then you want your LSAT to be over the 75th percentile for sure. Ace the LSAT.
posted by Handstand Devil at 2:40 PM on May 19, 2012
Just throwing this out there since you're interested in going to UC Berkeley for law - a friend graduated from undergrad at UC Berkeley, started law school at Golden Gate and transferred in to Berkeley (I'm guessing because of LSAT scores or grades but not sure). So, worst case, you could consider transferring in to Berkeley.
posted by kat518 at 10:23 PM on May 19, 2012
posted by kat518 at 10:23 PM on May 19, 2012
Do not do not go to Golden Gate unless you're damn sure you can transfer somewhere better. I interview and hire lawyers (for a non-legal career path) all the time, and the Golden Gate grads get tossed out from the beginning. My current accountant went to Golden Gate and is now in accounting cause he couldn't get hired anywhere as a lawyer in the Bay Area.
posted by twiggy32 at 1:08 AM on May 20, 2012
posted by twiggy32 at 1:08 AM on May 20, 2012
Going by the Law School Numbers data, with a 3.3 you'll need an LSAT score of 176-178 or better.
posted by jedicus at 8:25 AM on May 20, 2012
posted by jedicus at 8:25 AM on May 20, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by lobbyist at 6:45 AM on May 19, 2012 [2 favorites]