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May 9, 2012 7:19 AM Subscribe
I'm dating an awesome girl that cannot feel the beat--help me help her sense of rhythm.
We were at a concert recently and trying to dance or even tap my feet near her was a extremely distracting... ONE two THREE four ONE two thREE FOur onE TWO three FOUR
I've found plenty of good advice for learning rhythm and dancing here on AskMe, but my real concern is not so much what to do but how to get her to want to.
Details:
She can hear the beat sometimes, but she loses it quickly, even with fairly straightforward rhythms. I'm not sure she realizes when she gets off beat.
Relationship-wise, she can be very self-conscious; I can be very un-tactful and this has already been an issue in the past. She also has a vehement reaction to being pushed into doing things, even things she might otherwise want to do. She is aware of this but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
I want to be as not pushy as possible, and I really want to avoid making her more self-conscious or generally being an asshole. And yes, I realize that this is something that she just May Not Want To Do. And I can respect that if necessary, but I really enjoy dancing and would love to do it with her.
Also, feel free to make other suggestions of other things that might help her improve. Ideas I've culled from past AskMe questions include dance lessons, rhythm or dancing video games, music lessons, this book, buying her a metronome, etc...
We were at a concert recently and trying to dance or even tap my feet near her was a extremely distracting... ONE two THREE four ONE two thREE FOur onE TWO three FOUR
I've found plenty of good advice for learning rhythm and dancing here on AskMe, but my real concern is not so much what to do but how to get her to want to.
Details:
She can hear the beat sometimes, but she loses it quickly, even with fairly straightforward rhythms. I'm not sure she realizes when she gets off beat.
Relationship-wise, she can be very self-conscious; I can be very un-tactful and this has already been an issue in the past. She also has a vehement reaction to being pushed into doing things, even things she might otherwise want to do. She is aware of this but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
I want to be as not pushy as possible, and I really want to avoid making her more self-conscious or generally being an asshole. And yes, I realize that this is something that she just May Not Want To Do. And I can respect that if necessary, but I really enjoy dancing and would love to do it with her.
Also, feel free to make other suggestions of other things that might help her improve. Ideas I've culled from past AskMe questions include dance lessons, rhythm or dancing video games, music lessons, this book, buying her a metronome, etc...
Concerts should be fun. Music should be fun. Dancing should be fun. Rhythm should be fun.
Feeling like someone next to you is critiquing your "performance" is NOT fun.
Really, anything you say about this is just going to make her feel more self-conscious... and self-consciousness is the opposite of rhythm.
The easiest way to learn to dance is to be yourself. Let her be herself.
posted by crackingdes at 7:33 AM on May 9, 2012 [25 favorites]
Feeling like someone next to you is critiquing your "performance" is NOT fun.
Really, anything you say about this is just going to make her feel more self-conscious... and self-consciousness is the opposite of rhythm.
The easiest way to learn to dance is to be yourself. Let her be herself.
posted by crackingdes at 7:33 AM on May 9, 2012 [25 favorites]
If you want to enjoy dancing with her, learn to enjoy dancing with her.
However, it's probably OK to satisfy your need for dancing outside the relationship.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:34 AM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
However, it's probably OK to satisfy your need for dancing outside the relationship.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:34 AM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
So you're saying you recognize that she doesn't like being pushed into things, you have a habit of ignoring that and it makes her unhappy so you're looking for MeFi to help you convince her to want to change in this way for you? I'm sorry, I think the answer here is unless she says "hey, that rhythm thing, can you explain that to me?" that you let it be.
Think of it this way. Do you have perfect pitch? Probably not. Some people who do might find that annoying, especially if you just start humming a song and you're way not in the right key.
Do you have an excellent eye for color? Maybe not. Some people might find the paint in your living room doesn't really go too well with your sofa.
Accept that she doesn't have a sense of rhythm and that she's there to enjoy the concert with you. She's not there to feel the beat. And she's not there to be judged, that's a miserable experience.
Besides, go listen to some music that has a meter more complex than 4/4 time with rhythms that aren't so predicable. Brubeck is usually a good starting point.
posted by Brian Puccio at 7:35 AM on May 9, 2012 [14 favorites]
Think of it this way. Do you have perfect pitch? Probably not. Some people who do might find that annoying, especially if you just start humming a song and you're way not in the right key.
Do you have an excellent eye for color? Maybe not. Some people might find the paint in your living room doesn't really go too well with your sofa.
Accept that she doesn't have a sense of rhythm and that she's there to enjoy the concert with you. She's not there to feel the beat. And she's not there to be judged, that's a miserable experience.
Besides, go listen to some music that has a meter more complex than 4/4 time with rhythms that aren't so predicable. Brubeck is usually a good starting point.
posted by Brian Puccio at 7:35 AM on May 9, 2012 [14 favorites]
My mom is like this. I used to be embarassed, as a kid (she'd do it in the frozen foods section of the grocery store where the music was the loudest). Now I just think she is AWESOME. Because she IS dancing. She IS smiling. And that is what dancing and music and movement are all about. Being yourself. Feeling the beat inside (even if you're not on time). Let her be. Love her as she is. If other people care, that's on them.
posted by anya32 at 7:35 AM on May 9, 2012 [13 favorites]
posted by anya32 at 7:35 AM on May 9, 2012 [13 favorites]
Here is some great advice I never took. Except I never took it because the steps involved in developing rhythm from square one were too much work for what seems to be very little payoff.
You can't get someone to want to do something they don't have an inclination to do. Does she care that she doesn't have rhythm? Is she such a paragon of self-sacrifice that she'd be willing to do this so that you could feel better? Every individual in a relationship has something they wish the other person would do better, or more (or less.) Considering her self-consciousness and your tactlessness, you may just want to let sleeping dogs lie in this case, and suck it up and dance with your girlfriend who seems to be grooving to a completely different song.
posted by griphus at 7:35 AM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
You can't get someone to want to do something they don't have an inclination to do. Does she care that she doesn't have rhythm? Is she such a paragon of self-sacrifice that she'd be willing to do this so that you could feel better? Every individual in a relationship has something they wish the other person would do better, or more (or less.) Considering her self-consciousness and your tactlessness, you may just want to let sleeping dogs lie in this case, and suck it up and dance with your girlfriend who seems to be grooving to a completely different song.
posted by griphus at 7:35 AM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
Has she asked you to help her find a sense of rhythm?
It sounds like you see this as a problem and a sign that she is lacking in some necessary skillset, and she doesn't. Accept it and dance with her anyway. The next time you are at a wedding or event with lots of people dancing...look around and see how many of those people actually have the ability to keep to a beat.
She might be frustrated that you have no interest in learning to appreciate modern art, or cook a baked alaska, or sing off-key.
posted by inertia at 7:36 AM on May 9, 2012 [2 favorites]
It sounds like you see this as a problem and a sign that she is lacking in some necessary skillset, and she doesn't. Accept it and dance with her anyway. The next time you are at a wedding or event with lots of people dancing...look around and see how many of those people actually have the ability to keep to a beat.
She might be frustrated that you have no interest in learning to appreciate modern art, or cook a baked alaska, or sing off-key.
posted by inertia at 7:36 AM on May 9, 2012 [2 favorites]
Some people don't got rhythm.
If she's not worried about it, you shouldn't be either.
posted by valkyryn at 7:37 AM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
If she's not worried about it, you shouldn't be either.
posted by valkyryn at 7:37 AM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
hey the more practice she has dancing with you the better her sense of rhythm should normally get.
a lot of times when i dance i get compliments from strangers and my friends. a lot of times when i dance i can feel myself being completely off rhythm and i feel really self-conscious, but it's all based ultimately on how comfortable i'm feeling
i was at my clumsiest (and hated dancing the most) with a guy who thought he was a dancing hot-shot and always critiqued my rhythm. i really resented him and didn't enjoy dancing with him at all which turned me off from him because at the end of the day, i really like dancing.
don't be that guy. just take her dancing a lot. you can non-verbally guide her moves sometimes- that's always the most fun way to learn how to dance from someone.
posted by saraindc at 7:39 AM on May 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
a lot of times when i dance i get compliments from strangers and my friends. a lot of times when i dance i can feel myself being completely off rhythm and i feel really self-conscious, but it's all based ultimately on how comfortable i'm feeling
i was at my clumsiest (and hated dancing the most) with a guy who thought he was a dancing hot-shot and always critiqued my rhythm. i really resented him and didn't enjoy dancing with him at all which turned me off from him because at the end of the day, i really like dancing.
don't be that guy. just take her dancing a lot. you can non-verbally guide her moves sometimes- that's always the most fun way to learn how to dance from someone.
posted by saraindc at 7:39 AM on May 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
Don't do this - it's the definition of "tactless," and it seems like you have already been overly pushy with her. Just enjoy music with her.
posted by yarly at 7:41 AM on May 9, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by yarly at 7:41 AM on May 9, 2012 [7 favorites]
my real concern is not so much what to do but how to get her to want to.
This is a terrible idea.
I'm an amateur drummer and singer. I grew up with music and love music. I would really love it if my SO shared my love of making music and my love of experiencing music by understanding it, so I get where you're coming from - you would really love to have that shared experience. But you can't force someone to want something. My SO is perfectly happy with how she experiences music, and trying to change that would just be creating drama. In your case, either she wants to learn or she doesn't. And your tactless suggestions are already making her put up the defenses, so it sounds like this is a non-starter.
My advice: don't focus on helping her improve. Just focus on enjoying the music, and if she's there enjoying the music with you, then that's great and you shouldn't ask anything more. If you two dance, you lead, which is the way it normally works anyway. And if she gets off beat while you're dancing, then stop focusing so much on the music and focus on her. Here's a tip - if you two start following your own tempo, your tempo will eventually intersect with the actual beat. And if you two end up on the right tempo but the wrong beat (e.g., your first waltz step happens on 2 instead of 1), then either pause for a second so you can find the beat (remember, this is about you and your love of beat, not about her doing anything wrong) or do something funky like twirl her to waste a beat or two. Sure, the funky move will probably confuse her a little, but at the end you'll both end up doing the right move on the beat. You'll be happy because you're on beat, and she'll be happy because you did something fun instead of making a stink.
BTW, you already know your answer, it sounds like you just don't like the answer: I realize that this is something that she just May Not Want To Do. And I can respect that if necessary. From your description, it sounds like it's necessary.
posted by Tehhund at 7:43 AM on May 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
This is a terrible idea.
I'm an amateur drummer and singer. I grew up with music and love music. I would really love it if my SO shared my love of making music and my love of experiencing music by understanding it, so I get where you're coming from - you would really love to have that shared experience. But you can't force someone to want something. My SO is perfectly happy with how she experiences music, and trying to change that would just be creating drama. In your case, either she wants to learn or she doesn't. And your tactless suggestions are already making her put up the defenses, so it sounds like this is a non-starter.
My advice: don't focus on helping her improve. Just focus on enjoying the music, and if she's there enjoying the music with you, then that's great and you shouldn't ask anything more. If you two dance, you lead, which is the way it normally works anyway. And if she gets off beat while you're dancing, then stop focusing so much on the music and focus on her. Here's a tip - if you two start following your own tempo, your tempo will eventually intersect with the actual beat. And if you two end up on the right tempo but the wrong beat (e.g., your first waltz step happens on 2 instead of 1), then either pause for a second so you can find the beat (remember, this is about you and your love of beat, not about her doing anything wrong) or do something funky like twirl her to waste a beat or two. Sure, the funky move will probably confuse her a little, but at the end you'll both end up doing the right move on the beat. You'll be happy because you're on beat, and she'll be happy because you did something fun instead of making a stink.
BTW, you already know your answer, it sounds like you just don't like the answer: I realize that this is something that she just May Not Want To Do. And I can respect that if necessary. From your description, it sounds like it's necessary.
posted by Tehhund at 7:43 AM on May 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
Following up on my suggestion to make beat correction fun while dancing: Heck, since you're such an expert you could make it a game with yourself! When you two get off beat, see how quickly you can recognize how many beats you're off and how quickly you can devise a move to bring you two back on beat. You're dancing to 4/4 and your 1 move is happening on 2? Well, find a move in your repertoire that takes 3 beats. Voilà - you're back on beat.
posted by Tehhund at 7:45 AM on May 9, 2012
posted by Tehhund at 7:45 AM on May 9, 2012
Hi, I am little miss no rhythm, married to a musician, of all things! Please don't do this to your GF. Especially given the bits you mention about her being self conscious, she doesn't like being pushed into stuff, etc. My husband loves me for me, and deals with my lack of rhythm, as well as my tendency to lead during dancing. Your GF will tell you if she wants help with dancing, don't bring it up unless she does. You are being pushy if you bring it up.
posted by kellyblah at 7:58 AM on May 9, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by kellyblah at 7:58 AM on May 9, 2012 [2 favorites]
I used to take dance classes and while i'm not a bad dancer and had been doing this dance for about a year this one class that I joined, which was purportedly multi level, was full of very experience dancers who all knew each other.
They paired me with a man who could help but critique every move I made, not a normal amount of correction but a oh hey you know nothing back to the start level of scrutiny. I wanted to get better, I was at a class where this was the point, but it still ruined any enjoyment I had of being there and any ability I had of getting "in the zone." As horrible as it sounds it sounds i've been very reluctant to go to classes ever since.
I like like dancing music is something you should enjoy and if your girlfriend has not expressed to you in a very direct manner that she wants to keep the beat don't mention it. You will kill the enjoyment she has of doing these things with you. When you criticize someone about something that is inherently supposed to be fun, and inherently something where you have to let go a little bit you risk killing it for them.
Also I think you need to make sure the correcting your girlfriend or pushing her into situation she doesn't want is something you DO NOT do. She may be reacting strongly because you do it far far too often. You only have so much social capital with a person to spend on asking them to change so don't spend it on petty things. It sounds like you have overdrawn the bank and need to re think not the way she behaves but the way you do.
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 8:02 AM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
They paired me with a man who could help but critique every move I made, not a normal amount of correction but a oh hey you know nothing back to the start level of scrutiny. I wanted to get better, I was at a class where this was the point, but it still ruined any enjoyment I had of being there and any ability I had of getting "in the zone." As horrible as it sounds it sounds i've been very reluctant to go to classes ever since.
I like like dancing music is something you should enjoy and if your girlfriend has not expressed to you in a very direct manner that she wants to keep the beat don't mention it. You will kill the enjoyment she has of doing these things with you. When you criticize someone about something that is inherently supposed to be fun, and inherently something where you have to let go a little bit you risk killing it for them.
Also I think you need to make sure the correcting your girlfriend or pushing her into situation she doesn't want is something you DO NOT do. She may be reacting strongly because you do it far far too often. You only have so much social capital with a person to spend on asking them to change so don't spend it on petty things. It sounds like you have overdrawn the bank and need to re think not the way she behaves but the way you do.
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 8:02 AM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
I know a few people who cannot hear a beat. One of them recently told me that he had been dancing to changing pitches his whole life while THINKING he was dancing to the beat. He is (according to his own account) VERY slowly learning to hear rhythm by taking salsa lessons.
But honestly, these people probably have something akin to amusia. It's not that they need an intellectual understand to unlock "keeping the beat". It's not that they aren't trying hard enough. It's that their brains probably don't process information in the same way that yours does (at least in the limited arena of music/rhythm), and dancing to the beat could be the equivalent of solving sudoku puzzles while scuba diving and writing calligraphy with your toes for them - maybe a fun challenge, an activity that takes a lot of mental effort, but unlikely to ever be a fun way to "groove" and relax.
(Disclaimer: nobody on this planet understands how your girlfriend's brain or anybody else's brain works - I say this as a neuroscientist - and I offer no certainty on the matter!)
posted by Cygnet at 8:02 AM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
But honestly, these people probably have something akin to amusia. It's not that they need an intellectual understand to unlock "keeping the beat". It's not that they aren't trying hard enough. It's that their brains probably don't process information in the same way that yours does (at least in the limited arena of music/rhythm), and dancing to the beat could be the equivalent of solving sudoku puzzles while scuba diving and writing calligraphy with your toes for them - maybe a fun challenge, an activity that takes a lot of mental effort, but unlikely to ever be a fun way to "groove" and relax.
(Disclaimer: nobody on this planet understands how your girlfriend's brain or anybody else's brain works - I say this as a neuroscientist - and I offer no certainty on the matter!)
posted by Cygnet at 8:02 AM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
We were at a concert recently and trying to dance or even tap my feet near her was a extremely distracting.
I totally sympathize, people with no rhythm drive me up the wall. Even when it's something as simple as tapping their feet or clapping their hands. It throws me off, which is frustrating and decreases my enjoyment. How can they not hear the beat, if they're not deaf, it's literally in the air, right?!
Sadly, we're all a bit different. I can't do higher mathematics for crap or edit my writing very well. We all have limitations.
Have you tried expressing to her how much you enjoy dancing and asking her if she'd like to take some dance classes with you? It's fine if you already know how to dance, just go with it and enjoy spending time together. Try different styles of dancing, from salsa to ballroom to whatever. The point is to go and have some fun and maybe she'll pick up a bit of rhythm. She may not and you have to recognize that as a possibility and decide how you're going to handle it.
It's totally fine for this to be a deal breaker.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:03 AM on May 9, 2012
I totally sympathize, people with no rhythm drive me up the wall. Even when it's something as simple as tapping their feet or clapping their hands. It throws me off, which is frustrating and decreases my enjoyment. How can they not hear the beat, if they're not deaf, it's literally in the air, right?!
Sadly, we're all a bit different. I can't do higher mathematics for crap or edit my writing very well. We all have limitations.
Have you tried expressing to her how much you enjoy dancing and asking her if she'd like to take some dance classes with you? It's fine if you already know how to dance, just go with it and enjoy spending time together. Try different styles of dancing, from salsa to ballroom to whatever. The point is to go and have some fun and maybe she'll pick up a bit of rhythm. She may not and you have to recognize that as a possibility and decide how you're going to handle it.
It's totally fine for this to be a deal breaker.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:03 AM on May 9, 2012
How about taking dance lessons together? Choose a style that you don't already know and genuinely want to learn, so it's not about you instructing her -- it's about you both learning together. Let the instructor be the one to correct her, not you. But this is only if she really, really likes the idea. Otherwise, let it (or her) go.
posted by Wordwoman at 8:03 AM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Wordwoman at 8:03 AM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
I want to be as not pushy as possible, and I really want to avoid making her more self-conscious
Then don't try to "help her sense of rhythm."
And yes, I realize that this is something that she just May Not Want To Do.
You mean she hasn't given you any indication that she wants help with this? Again, do not try to help her with this.
posted by John Cohen at 8:06 AM on May 9, 2012
Then don't try to "help her sense of rhythm."
And yes, I realize that this is something that she just May Not Want To Do.
You mean she hasn't given you any indication that she wants help with this? Again, do not try to help her with this.
posted by John Cohen at 8:06 AM on May 9, 2012
And yes, I realize that this is something that she just May Not Want To Do.
Perhaps it would then be best to hold off until you know for certain that this is Something She Definitely Wants To Do.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:08 AM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
Perhaps it would then be best to hold off until you know for certain that this is Something She Definitely Wants To Do.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:08 AM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
She's awesome, right? Nobody gets a better human being by improving their skill to tap a rhythm. Don't risk her walking away from you (snipping her fingers to her perfectly regular step).
posted by Namlit at 8:13 AM on May 9, 2012
posted by Namlit at 8:13 AM on May 9, 2012
I think you need to assess whether she actually enjoys dancing, and then try to create a situation in which someone else can teach her. There are many situations in which having someone else teach me is way lower pressure, and makes me much less self-conscious than having my husband teach me. However, there are also situations in which I simply don't have an interest in learning. You should be willing to hear her say she doesn't like dancing, and table the idea. So:
You: Do you like dancing?
Her: Yes.
You: Want to take an XYZ-style dance class with me? I've been thinking about getting into XYZ dancing, and I'd love to try it with you.
You: Do you like dancing?
Her: No.
You: Fair enough. How do you feel about hiking?
posted by Meg_Murry at 8:15 AM on May 9, 2012
You: Do you like dancing?
Her: Yes.
You: Want to take an XYZ-style dance class with me? I've been thinking about getting into XYZ dancing, and I'd love to try it with you.
You: Do you like dancing?
Her: No.
You: Fair enough. How do you feel about hiking?
posted by Meg_Murry at 8:15 AM on May 9, 2012
Please read the responses to this recent AskMe post, which was written by a very caring, very not-pushy or untactful person who cringes when her SO sings.
posted by headnsouth at 8:17 AM on May 9, 2012
posted by headnsouth at 8:17 AM on May 9, 2012
This sounds like it is about you and your desire to make her more closely fit what you want in another person. There isn't any indication here that she's asked for any "help". So maybe she literally marches to the beat of her own drummer. This is a bad thing why?
Maybe good questions to consider:
- Why does her perceived lack of rhythm bother you?
- Are there other "undesirable" habits of hers you'd like to change for your own comfort? Do you also plan on "helping her fix" those?
If so, it may be healthier--for both of you--if you left her as is (a different, autonomous person who may not fit your preferences) and either found someone else who does or examined your own approach to dating different, autonomous people.
posted by anonnymoose at 8:17 AM on May 9, 2012 [2 favorites]
Maybe good questions to consider:
- Why does her perceived lack of rhythm bother you?
- Are there other "undesirable" habits of hers you'd like to change for your own comfort? Do you also plan on "helping her fix" those?
If so, it may be healthier--for both of you--if you left her as is (a different, autonomous person who may not fit your preferences) and either found someone else who does or examined your own approach to dating different, autonomous people.
posted by anonnymoose at 8:17 AM on May 9, 2012 [2 favorites]
You think your girlfriend has a "problem" and you need to "fix" it?
That's bullshit. Your girlfriend has discovered the great joy of relaxing and just getting her damn groove on without worrying how she looks. That is a huge step for a self-conscious anxiety-prone person to take. You should be very happy and very proud of her. Don't fuck it up.
I suspect you're probably reading this and saying to yourself, "Oh, god, these philistine morons! Don't they understand that rhythm is important?! That musicianship is important?! You can't just bop around however you feel like it! There's a right way and a wrong way to do this stuff! And she's doing it wrong!"
I know. I hear you. Rhythm and musicianship are really important to me too. I'm proud of my sense of rhythm. I feel bad for people who can't perceive the rhythmic subtleties in a good well-played piece of music.
But you know who I feel even worse for? People who refuse to dance or even listen to live music at all because twenty years ago they had an asshole boyfriend told them they looked stupid when they were doing it. Don't be that asshole.
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:20 AM on May 9, 2012 [19 favorites]
That's bullshit. Your girlfriend has discovered the great joy of relaxing and just getting her damn groove on without worrying how she looks. That is a huge step for a self-conscious anxiety-prone person to take. You should be very happy and very proud of her. Don't fuck it up.
I suspect you're probably reading this and saying to yourself, "Oh, god, these philistine morons! Don't they understand that rhythm is important?! That musicianship is important?! You can't just bop around however you feel like it! There's a right way and a wrong way to do this stuff! And she's doing it wrong!"
I know. I hear you. Rhythm and musicianship are really important to me too. I'm proud of my sense of rhythm. I feel bad for people who can't perceive the rhythmic subtleties in a good well-played piece of music.
But you know who I feel even worse for? People who refuse to dance or even listen to live music at all because twenty years ago they had an asshole boyfriend told them they looked stupid when they were doing it. Don't be that asshole.
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:20 AM on May 9, 2012 [19 favorites]
(Upon re-reading I see that this bothers you because you would like to dance with her. Fair enough, but my response still stands. She's a girlfriend, not a pupil--until she asks to be, that is.)
posted by anonnymoose at 8:21 AM on May 9, 2012
posted by anonnymoose at 8:21 AM on May 9, 2012
If a woman comes onto Ask Metafilter and starts asking what to do about a boyfriend who keeps trying to push her into doing things she isn't interested in, judging her abilities on how they reflect on him, and trying to change her into something she isn't... the hivemind would advise her to DTMFA.
posted by Dynex at 9:01 AM on May 9, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Dynex at 9:01 AM on May 9, 2012 [2 favorites]
I heartily n'th all the responses above that emphasize that you can't make someone want something, that your girlfriend is a separate person, that even off-beat dancing is an expression of joy, etc., etc. From a practical standpoint, you probably need to drop this issue, or drop the girl, if it means that much to you.
However, fwiw, dancing that doesn't keep the beat isn't necessarily an indication that your girlfriend completely lacks an intuitive sense of rhythm. If she's not an especially physical person and isn't used to dancing, then it's entirely possible that she hears the beat just fine, but can't get her body to move in time to it/ is focusing so much on the way she's moving that she loses track of the beat. I speak from experience on this, as someone who has a pretty good sense of rhythm when I'm tapping a pencil or whatever but couldn't bust a rhythmic move to save my life. If this is the case, then just giving her lots more experience dancing may solve the problem by itself. Also note that self-consciousness is the bane of fluid and natural movement, so your criticizing her dancing, at all, ever, will likely have the opposite result from what you desire.
posted by Bardolph at 9:12 AM on May 9, 2012
However, fwiw, dancing that doesn't keep the beat isn't necessarily an indication that your girlfriend completely lacks an intuitive sense of rhythm. If she's not an especially physical person and isn't used to dancing, then it's entirely possible that she hears the beat just fine, but can't get her body to move in time to it/ is focusing so much on the way she's moving that she loses track of the beat. I speak from experience on this, as someone who has a pretty good sense of rhythm when I'm tapping a pencil or whatever but couldn't bust a rhythmic move to save my life. If this is the case, then just giving her lots more experience dancing may solve the problem by itself. Also note that self-consciousness is the bane of fluid and natural movement, so your criticizing her dancing, at all, ever, will likely have the opposite result from what you desire.
posted by Bardolph at 9:12 AM on May 9, 2012
Do both of yourselves a favor and break up with her. She deserves someone who doesn't take on the "daddy" role and pushes her to do something she doesn't want "for her own good." That's coercion, if not outright emotional abuse.
If having a partner who has good rhythm and is a good dancer is important to you, why don't you find someone who already has those qualities? A partner is not a fixer-upper. A partner should also be one whom you respect as an adult. If one of your needs is a partner with rhythm, that's perfectly OK to have that as one of your "must haves." You also want to find a partner you can respect and not treat like a child. If you always find yourself doing this with your girlfriends, you need to work on yourself and how you treat people.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:16 AM on May 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
If having a partner who has good rhythm and is a good dancer is important to you, why don't you find someone who already has those qualities? A partner is not a fixer-upper. A partner should also be one whom you respect as an adult. If one of your needs is a partner with rhythm, that's perfectly OK to have that as one of your "must haves." You also want to find a partner you can respect and not treat like a child. If you always find yourself doing this with your girlfriends, you need to work on yourself and how you treat people.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:16 AM on May 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
Oh, and: Relationship-wise, she can be very self-conscious; I can be very un-tactful and this has already been an issue in the past.
Is she self-conscious in relationships in general or just with you? And what do you mean by "un-tacful?" I think you should break up so she can find someone who respects her and doesn't constantly criticize her.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:29 AM on May 9, 2012
Is she self-conscious in relationships in general or just with you? And what do you mean by "un-tacful?" I think you should break up so she can find someone who respects her and doesn't constantly criticize her.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:29 AM on May 9, 2012
You might find the result of this is she just becomes so self-conscious about it that she never wants to dance in front of you or accompany you to a concert again...
posted by KateViolet at 9:41 AM on May 9, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by KateViolet at 9:41 AM on May 9, 2012 [2 favorites]
how to get her to want to.
Given that you already have an "issue," why would you want to exacerbate it by doing two things that she hates - pushing her into something and making her self conscious - so that you can get one thing that you like - a dancing partner?
Generally, it is possible to "teach" someone to dance without pointing out to them that they dance to the beat of a drum that isn't playing in the room that you are in. It's called Dancing with You Anyway and "leading." But for improvement to occur they have to want to get it on their own.
posted by sm1tten at 10:15 AM on May 9, 2012
Given that you already have an "issue," why would you want to exacerbate it by doing two things that she hates - pushing her into something and making her self conscious - so that you can get one thing that you like - a dancing partner?
Generally, it is possible to "teach" someone to dance without pointing out to them that they dance to the beat of a drum that isn't playing in the room that you are in. It's called Dancing with You Anyway and "leading." But for improvement to occur they have to want to get it on their own.
posted by sm1tten at 10:15 AM on May 9, 2012
Like others have said, you must read the previous AskMe that everyone else has linked to, and insert your predicament into it. She can't dance? So what. Do you love her any less? Everyone is self-conscious about something; don't reinforce hers by making her do something she doesn't, or better yet, may not be able to do. I can't dance either and yet I do it all the time, and my bad dancing makes my husband laugh.
Learn some tact or dump her if she can't dance. Do you see how stupid of a reason it would be to dump her for her lack of dance skills? Imagine telling your friends and family that. "Hey, I dumped my SO because she has two left feet." Think about it.
posted by ThaBombShelterSmith at 10:23 AM on May 9, 2012
Learn some tact or dump her if she can't dance. Do you see how stupid of a reason it would be to dump her for her lack of dance skills? Imagine telling your friends and family that. "Hey, I dumped my SO because she has two left feet." Think about it.
posted by ThaBombShelterSmith at 10:23 AM on May 9, 2012
What most of the above people said. I would also/additionally say that, even if she WANTS to get better (whether it's because of you or not), there are certainly people out there who just have a really hard time learning... well any kind of skill that may seem obvious to those of us who seemingly have had zero problem with whatever said thing is.
My fave example is: I have always had a knack for rhythm, since I was little. Way, way more so, however, than a knack for actual dancing. For some reason, I learn body movements incredibly slowly, even though I can mostly tell that I am doing something that looks wrong by watching myself in a mirror. EVEN if a professional teacher is standing right next to me! doing the movements really well, it is difficult for me to copy them at anything but a very slow pace.
Friends who know me think I dance 'really well!' now... but this is due to having taken many many dance lessons with many patient people, and watching a lot, and watching dvds, and doing stuff on my own... in spite of the fact that I clearly have some kind of deficiency in terms of learning complex motor movements such as dance.
So if she has the kind of problem I have, but with rhythm - she is likely going to have to really want to improve, and then work at it. Whether she wants to do so (for you) is another story.
posted by bitterkitten at 10:29 AM on May 9, 2012
My fave example is: I have always had a knack for rhythm, since I was little. Way, way more so, however, than a knack for actual dancing. For some reason, I learn body movements incredibly slowly, even though I can mostly tell that I am doing something that looks wrong by watching myself in a mirror. EVEN if a professional teacher is standing right next to me! doing the movements really well, it is difficult for me to copy them at anything but a very slow pace.
Friends who know me think I dance 'really well!' now... but this is due to having taken many many dance lessons with many patient people, and watching a lot, and watching dvds, and doing stuff on my own... in spite of the fact that I clearly have some kind of deficiency in terms of learning complex motor movements such as dance.
So if she has the kind of problem I have, but with rhythm - she is likely going to have to really want to improve, and then work at it. Whether she wants to do so (for you) is another story.
posted by bitterkitten at 10:29 AM on May 9, 2012
Terrible but joyful dancer here. Food for thought: one of the ways I can tell if a person is good for me is whether they think it's awesome or really embarassing that I dance like a Fraggle. If someone started trying to give me rhythm lessons without me asking for them explicitly, I'd take it as a sign that they were too insecure to look uncool.
posted by superlibby at 10:36 AM on May 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by superlibby at 10:36 AM on May 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
Do both of yourselves a favor and break up with her
I think you should break up
Learn some tact or dump her
This rhetoric seems like overkill. The OP doesn't ever say rhythm is a dealbreaker in the relationship, and they also recognize that pushiness is jerky behavior. Sure, buying a metronome for your girlfriend is a boneheaded idea, but that message has already been delivered loud and clear in this thread. Elevating this to a "she's better off without you" situation presumes that the OP is incapable of reading the answers above and changing their attitude. I don't think that's a fair assumption.
posted by Beardman at 10:50 AM on May 9, 2012 [2 favorites]
I think you should break up
Learn some tact or dump her
This rhetoric seems like overkill. The OP doesn't ever say rhythm is a dealbreaker in the relationship, and they also recognize that pushiness is jerky behavior. Sure, buying a metronome for your girlfriend is a boneheaded idea, but that message has already been delivered loud and clear in this thread. Elevating this to a "she's better off without you" situation presumes that the OP is incapable of reading the answers above and changing their attitude. I don't think that's a fair assumption.
posted by Beardman at 10:50 AM on May 9, 2012 [2 favorites]
Mod note: This is a followup from the asker.
Thanks for all the comments. This is turned into a bit more of a referendum on my morality that I was aiming for, but I suppose it's good to hear and partly my fault for how I framed the question.posted by cortex (staff) at 2:15 PM on May 9, 2012
Perhaps you will allow me to reframe the question somewhat:
FWIW, she has expressed some interest in dancing, and we have done a bit. She might just be playing along for my sake but let's assume for now that she's not (generally she will not suffer through things she really does not enjoy). I want to encourage her and help her improve without being that judgy guy. What are some ways to do this? How can I make her feel better about herself and have a good time in ways that actually help her improve?
Basically I am trying to ask about good ways to teach, in a situation where there are a number of emotions and insecurity landmines to avoid.
Based on your update, you're still coming at it from a position of She needs to improve. She needs to change. In other words, She's not good enough the way she is.
I think you're not hearing the underlying common theme to the comments: unless and until she says she wants to improve, you need to let go of the idea that she needs to change.
posted by Lexica at 3:08 PM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think you're not hearing the underlying common theme to the comments: unless and until she says she wants to improve, you need to let go of the idea that she needs to change.
posted by Lexica at 3:08 PM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
If all she needs is practice, then let her practice. Find a dance class nearby and turn it into a date night, take her out for dinner and spoil her a bit after the class. If you can find something with a time limit and phrase it as a "I really enjoy this hobby and would just love it if you'd come and be my partner, it's only 6 classes! I'll take you out for dinner after, my treat, to thank you for doing this for me." Put the focus on having fun, not on being good at it. Let it be absolutely one hundred percent awesome that she just shows up and you two have a good time.
If she doesn't want to do it again, don't push it. It's just not her thing.
Some notes on a guy who did this to me, he loved rock climbing and bought me a pass for a few climbs with equipment rentals. He was judgemental about my (complete lack of) ability, kept looking around to see what everyone else was doing, and eventually wandered off to hang with his friends and left me fiddling with my shoes in the corner. I never went back. Don't do that.
I went with a few friends to shoot some hoops, and one kept sitting out and refusing to play, kept saying she was no good at it and didn't want to embarrasses herself. So we changed it to "interpretive dance basketball" and had a great time. If we had been competitive and insisting everyone have a certain level of talent and skill, no way she'd have had fun or ever joined us again.
posted by Dynex at 3:09 PM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
If she doesn't want to do it again, don't push it. It's just not her thing.
Some notes on a guy who did this to me, he loved rock climbing and bought me a pass for a few climbs with equipment rentals. He was judgemental about my (complete lack of) ability, kept looking around to see what everyone else was doing, and eventually wandered off to hang with his friends and left me fiddling with my shoes in the corner. I never went back. Don't do that.
I went with a few friends to shoot some hoops, and one kept sitting out and refusing to play, kept saying she was no good at it and didn't want to embarrasses herself. So we changed it to "interpretive dance basketball" and had a great time. If we had been competitive and insisting everyone have a certain level of talent and skill, no way she'd have had fun or ever joined us again.
posted by Dynex at 3:09 PM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
She might just be playing along for my sake but let's assume for now that she's not
No.
With people who you care about and respect, you don't make assumptions about their intent when they say/do things. If their intent is unclear, you ask them what they mean because their opinion/feelings/perspectives are valuable to you.
When you don't bother to talk to your girlfriend about what she means or wants, and you instead choose to assume that she means the thing that you wanted her to mean all along, then you are not treating her with respect. And as nebulawindphone pointed out above, the fact that she's generally self-conscious and still manages to let loose enough to dance in public with a boyfriend who doesn't like her dancing (trust me, she knows you don't like her dancing) earns her some serious respect.
I want to encourage her and help her improve without being that judgy guy.
Then the first thing you need to do is ask her if she wants you to encourage her and help her improve. And the second thing you need to do is listen to her response.
posted by headnsouth at 3:27 PM on May 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
No.
With people who you care about and respect, you don't make assumptions about their intent when they say/do things. If their intent is unclear, you ask them what they mean because their opinion/feelings/perspectives are valuable to you.
When you don't bother to talk to your girlfriend about what she means or wants, and you instead choose to assume that she means the thing that you wanted her to mean all along, then you are not treating her with respect. And as nebulawindphone pointed out above, the fact that she's generally self-conscious and still manages to let loose enough to dance in public with a boyfriend who doesn't like her dancing (trust me, she knows you don't like her dancing) earns her some serious respect.
I want to encourage her and help her improve without being that judgy guy.
Then the first thing you need to do is ask her if she wants you to encourage her and help her improve. And the second thing you need to do is listen to her response.
posted by headnsouth at 3:27 PM on May 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
Even if you have the purest and lovingness of good intentions and "just want to help!" don't do it. There's no way you are going to avoid "emotions and insecurity landmines."
A partner is not a fixer-upper house. You don't get to "improve" her and you don't get to offer "well meaning help and encouragement." Don't be that asshole who kills her joy in dancing and makes her so self-conscious she never dances again - or wants to try new things because you were disapproving and insisted on "molding" her to be what you want. Henry Higgins and Eliza Doolittle were fiction, and nothing like that ever ends well in real life.
Don't try to "lovingly teach." Don't "encourage her to improve." Suck it up, butt out or break up.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 3:58 PM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
A partner is not a fixer-upper house. You don't get to "improve" her and you don't get to offer "well meaning help and encouragement." Don't be that asshole who kills her joy in dancing and makes her so self-conscious she never dances again - or wants to try new things because you were disapproving and insisted on "molding" her to be what you want. Henry Higgins and Eliza Doolittle were fiction, and nothing like that ever ends well in real life.
Don't try to "lovingly teach." Don't "encourage her to improve." Suck it up, butt out or break up.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 3:58 PM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure what kind of dancing you're thinking of. If you guys are interested in specific styles of dance, taking a dance class together (salsa, waltz, etc.) might be something you guys can do together if you both think it might be fun. Dance classes are about improving your skills.
But if it's just casual dancing you're thinking of (like at a concert), sorry, I don't think there is any way you can bring this up without hurting your girlfriend's feelings and possibly causing her to not want to dance with/near you at all. I think dancing, like singing, is an inherently joyful activity, as spacekitty said in the other thread. I love to dance (badly), just for the joy of it, and my lack of skill doesn't impede my enjoyment. I would consider it pretty jerky if anyone (let alone my significant other) suggested I might want to improve my dancing.
I've been on both sides of this, though. My boyfriend's terrible whistling drives me a little crazy, but when I read the singing thread, I was ashamed of things I've said to him about it. I've since found it much more tolerable when thinking of it as one of those inherently joyful activities - it means he's happy, and that makes me happy.
posted by fussbudget at 4:12 PM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
But if it's just casual dancing you're thinking of (like at a concert), sorry, I don't think there is any way you can bring this up without hurting your girlfriend's feelings and possibly causing her to not want to dance with/near you at all. I think dancing, like singing, is an inherently joyful activity, as spacekitty said in the other thread. I love to dance (badly), just for the joy of it, and my lack of skill doesn't impede my enjoyment. I would consider it pretty jerky if anyone (let alone my significant other) suggested I might want to improve my dancing.
I've been on both sides of this, though. My boyfriend's terrible whistling drives me a little crazy, but when I read the singing thread, I was ashamed of things I've said to him about it. I've since found it much more tolerable when thinking of it as one of those inherently joyful activities - it means he's happy, and that makes me happy.
posted by fussbudget at 4:12 PM on May 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
FWIW, she has expressed some interest in dancing, and we have done a bit....
How can I make her feel better about herself and have a good time in ways that actually help her improve?
The issue here is, it's entirely possible to enjoy something without wanting to improve at it.
And when someone feels no need for improvement, pushing them to improve anway — saying, "Well, I think you need to improve, and here's how" — is actually a bit of an insult. I know you don't mean it as an insult, but she's likely to take it as one.
Maybe she has specifically said to you "Anonymous, I want to learn how to dance better! This isn't just wishful thinking — I really want to commit to spending time practicing and getting better! And I want you to be my dance teacher!" But unless she's said that, you need to back off. In fact, even if she has said that, I'd argue that the right reply is probably something like "That's really sweet, but I don't know the first thing about teaching, I'd probably just make us both all frustrated" and then buy her coupons for some dance lessons for her birthday or something like that. Because mixing in some sort of teacher/student dynamic into a romantic relationship can actually be really stressful and upsetting for both people involved.
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:24 PM on May 9, 2012
How can I make her feel better about herself and have a good time in ways that actually help her improve?
The issue here is, it's entirely possible to enjoy something without wanting to improve at it.
And when someone feels no need for improvement, pushing them to improve anway — saying, "Well, I think you need to improve, and here's how" — is actually a bit of an insult. I know you don't mean it as an insult, but she's likely to take it as one.
Maybe she has specifically said to you "Anonymous, I want to learn how to dance better! This isn't just wishful thinking — I really want to commit to spending time practicing and getting better! And I want you to be my dance teacher!" But unless she's said that, you need to back off. In fact, even if she has said that, I'd argue that the right reply is probably something like "That's really sweet, but I don't know the first thing about teaching, I'd probably just make us both all frustrated" and then buy her coupons for some dance lessons for her birthday or something like that. Because mixing in some sort of teacher/student dynamic into a romantic relationship can actually be really stressful and upsetting for both people involved.
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:24 PM on May 9, 2012
It might be worth a try just to ask her to be in charge, to choose the music, the venue, the type of dancing or for the two of you just to explore the many different types of music and dance out there of which you can share appreciation.
I was always a fairly self-conscious, unmusical type of person until I came to New Orleans. Here people dance all the time. It's not Dancing With The Stars, it's just life. Your toe-tapping example reminded me of a line spoken by a jazz trumpeter on the first season of Treme about the varying levels of musical understanding encountered on tour, "I’ve been to Portland, Oregon. Nice folks. But you know they clap on the one and three?” (The beat down here is unmistakeable--you can feel it through the floor and even I get it, although I still can't dance.)
posted by Anitanola at 8:24 PM on May 9, 2012
I was always a fairly self-conscious, unmusical type of person until I came to New Orleans. Here people dance all the time. It's not Dancing With The Stars, it's just life. Your toe-tapping example reminded me of a line spoken by a jazz trumpeter on the first season of Treme about the varying levels of musical understanding encountered on tour, "I’ve been to Portland, Oregon. Nice folks. But you know they clap on the one and three?” (The beat down here is unmistakeable--you can feel it through the floor and even I get it, although I still can't dance.)
posted by Anitanola at 8:24 PM on May 9, 2012
I'm a bad dancer. I found out I was a bad dancer when my ex-boyfriend made fun of me by including doing a devastatingly accurate impression of my bad dancing for his cousins, who wept with laughter. It genuinely was funny, but it made me feel sad and self-conscious, and for the next decade I pretty much only ever danced if I was drunk.
Then I met a guy who thought my bad drunk dancing was so cute that whenever I did my signature move, his eyes would light up in genuine delight, and he would literally lift me up off the floor in a bearhug, while saying YOU ARE SO FUCKING CUTE in my ear, then he'd put me down and beg me with his shining eyes to do that thing again.
So now I kind of have the guts to dance sober.
Be the nice boyfriend who makes her stronger and better and more her.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 10:44 PM on May 9, 2012 [11 favorites]
Then I met a guy who thought my bad drunk dancing was so cute that whenever I did my signature move, his eyes would light up in genuine delight, and he would literally lift me up off the floor in a bearhug, while saying YOU ARE SO FUCKING CUTE in my ear, then he'd put me down and beg me with his shining eyes to do that thing again.
So now I kind of have the guts to dance sober.
Be the nice boyfriend who makes her stronger and better and more her.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 10:44 PM on May 9, 2012 [11 favorites]
We were at a concert recently and trying to dance or even tap my feet near her was a extremely distracting... ONE two THREE four ONE two thREE FOur onE TWO three FOUR
My goodness, however did you handle the people that you're not dating? By which I mean...look, there's always some behavioral noise, don't let it get to you. Focus on her enjoyment of the music, yay, you're at the show together.
posted by desuetude at 10:52 PM on May 9, 2012
My goodness, however did you handle the people that you're not dating? By which I mean...look, there's always some behavioral noise, don't let it get to you. Focus on her enjoyment of the music, yay, you're at the show together.
posted by desuetude at 10:52 PM on May 9, 2012
We were at a concert recently and trying to dance or even tap my feet near her was a extremely distracting... ONE two THREE four ONE two thREE FOur onE TWO three FOUR
Maybe listening to a lot of African drumming with crazy cross-rythyms would help you train yourself to pay attention to one beat line without being distracted by others.
posted by endless_forms at 7:00 AM on May 10, 2012
Maybe listening to a lot of African drumming with crazy cross-rythyms would help you train yourself to pay attention to one beat line without being distracted by others.
posted by endless_forms at 7:00 AM on May 10, 2012
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Because if she doesn't, you are in all likelihood going to have to decide whether you like her more than you hate being with someone who is a terrible dancer and distractingly bad toe-tapper.
See this thread for some related advice about helping a loved one carry a tune in a bucket.
You could also try to get her to play Garage Band / Rock Star / Dance Dance Revolution with you. That could work.
posted by gauche at 7:32 AM on May 9, 2012 [3 favorites]