Yes, I know this doesn't make me special
May 4, 2012 9:17 AM   Subscribe

If you reach your mid-20s with no career direction, what do you do? How do you fix it?

I know all these people my age with Goals and Careers. They might have entry-level scut jobs but they have a plan for where they are going and how to use their current jobs to achieve their goals. One’s in fashion PR, one’s in graphic design, one’s in advertising, one’s in app programming, one’s in teaching, etc etc. What they all have in common is their genuine interest in what they do. They follow all the news related to their fields enthusiastically, they are conversant and passionate and have opinions on all the finer points, they have ideas of how they want to change the industry if they can. Some of them don’t make any more money than I do- some make less- but they are happy, and in ten years, if nothing changes, they will be successful and I will be… I don’t know. I have, literally, no idea.

I’m 24. I realized too late that my degree path (advertising) was something I had very little interest in, and anyway I don’t have a book so I’m not sure how I could get an ad job regardless. After graduation (in December 2010, whomp whomp), I spent about 8 months looking for work, and finally got a full-time job, my first, which I have had since September. It’s fine- it involves managing data, which is sometimes interesting, plus some writing and editing, which I really enjoy- but neither the role I play in my company nor the industry that the company works in have much interest for me. I look at the work my superiors do, and I really cannot see myself doing that sort of work in five or ten years. I don’t think I would be good at it and I certainly wouldn’t enjoy it.

I feel that I lost the momentum I ought to have had as a fresh grad, and that now I will never catch up to where I could have been. I have a small collection of things that I know I’m good at, but no clue as to how I might apply those things to a career. I don’t have any illusions about a ‘dream job’ but I need SOME KIND of career, and it’s not like I’ll ever get promoted if I don’t care about what I’m doing. Plus, right now I feel fairly useless. My ability to do my job well matters to the people I work with, but I am very replaceable.

I also fear that my lack of a clear direction makes me a less attractive prospect for dating, because I tend to be interested in driven, passionate guys, and why would they want to date someone with no direction?

When I ask my parents for advice, their advice is “why are you asking US, of all people? Just don’t make the same mistakes we made!” Both of them feel that they made poor career choices but that it’s too late to do anything about it now, and they’re basically just waiting to retire. It makes me so sad for them, and it makes me afraid for myself.

I already pay like $400 a month in undergrad loans, so grad school is out of the question unless I can get funding or I KNOW I will get a decent job afterwards. When I think about my debt, that's when I get really scared, because it's not like I can run away and Find Myself. I am obligated to work until I pay back the $28K I owe.

So the actual question: what now? What do I do about this? What did YOU do, if you were in this situation before? I am sick of cringing inside when people ask me what I want to do with my life.
posted by showbiz_liz to Work & Money (33 answers total) 43 users marked this as a favorite
 
The short answer is that you are still really young. This is the time when you try to figure these things out so don't worry too much. You have a job which is alot more than others right now.
Take your time to look around, do research and find out what type of work would make you happy and what companies do it. I suggest sticking this job out for a year or two to get experience and maybe taking a class or something like that on the side if there is a specific skill you need to acquire.
Also dont look at what others are doing...most of those people will burn out or switch jobs or something else. The grass is always greener. You need to look at what successful people in the field you want to work in do. People dont really hit their stride in their careeer unitl their 30's (or beyond) so dont freak out now.
posted by Busmick at 9:26 AM on May 4, 2012


90% of the people with rock solid career plans in the early plans will change them. Many of them will change multiple times. Not everybody has or needs a jobs that makes them bounce out of bed in the morning. I think we all need something that excites us, but it might be healthier if it is not your job. So do your job and find something else to be passionate about. Maybe you'll find a career you are passionate about, maybe you won't. Buy don't buy into the myth that you are some kind of failure if you don't have a rolling 5 year plan for your career.
posted by COD at 9:27 AM on May 4, 2012


Here's the thing: there's a very real chance that a lot of those people who have "plans" now could find themselves, in ten years, suddenly thinking "wait...I don't want to do this any more," and then they're going to be the ones writing AskMes. Only they'll have a spouse and kids, and be even more flaily.

Keep trying stuff. I backed into a vocation that I didn't even know existed because I tried a couple of different things and then someone told me "you know, there's a name for what you do."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:28 AM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]


Well, if it makes you feel any better, I didn't decide on my career until I was 30. I was lucky enough to be working for a state university so my master's degree was at such reduced cost that I racked up no additional debt for it (though, I am still paying for my undergrad -- at 37, I've only got $6K more to go, woot!) so... I don't know if I have any particular advice per se, other than to say you still have time, and if you find yourself with an opportunity to get additional degrees for really cheap, take it.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 9:28 AM on May 4, 2012


There's a thing about America that everyone else in the world finds sad and strange, in that you're expected to make your job your life. Not necessarily spend all your time there -- although that's a weird-ass and completely counterproductive virtue as well -- but that you should be all about the thing you want to do. So, here's the secret:

It's a crock of shit.

The people who do throw themselves in wholly to what they do? Good for them. Seriously. The world needs those people. Everyone else? Well, our job is to do the best job we can, leave, and lead a rewarding life. You are at work for, what, eight hours a day? Sleep for seven or eight? That leaves eight hours in which you can make your life worth living. Take your "what am I doing with myself" out of the third of the day where you're in the office checking MetaFilter and move them to the third of the day where you're doing whatever the fuck you feel like. Make the whatever-the-fuck-you-feel-like the place where you get your reward.

Ajn example? My mother wanted to be an artist. And, for a while, she was. That didn't work out. She ended up working as an art therapist at a nursing home and ended up being a Really Important Person at a state mental health facility, complete with a Master's degree she was paid to get. This career path started when she was 33. She probably found it moderately rewarding, and what she found even more rewarding was the two weeks off she took every year to travel the world.
posted by griphus at 9:29 AM on May 4, 2012 [32 favorites]


You sound down in the dumps but there is a bright side.

For a start, you didn't go into advertising. Thank you. Advertising is a bad thing for a good person to do. It hurts the person and of course it hurts everyone else.

You may think you haven't done anything "right" yet (ie thing that takes you to your goal, whatever that turns out to be), but you havent done anything wrong either.

Maybe you are in a better position than you appreciate.

good luck, not that you need it
posted by devious truculent and unreliable at 9:31 AM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]


Your situation is the norm. Age 24 is not too late for ANYTHING. A career is hardly ever a train you get on and just keep riding forever. You ARE creating a path for yourself by taking the jobs you do, getting involved with hobbies you are interested in, taking opportunities as they come and generally living your life. I completely understand how disorienting it can be without a clear plan ahead, feeling directionless. Total anxiety. Your life until very recently has always had forward trajectory: through school, graduation, always onward and up. The pace of your life has changed drastically and that is very unmooring. This is so common, you are not alone. The only advice I have is to keep your mind open, keep being curious about new things, follow through with every semi-appealing opportunity. Keep yourself passionate and engaged through your hobbies and interests. Continue to create a path for yourself.
posted by Katine at 9:31 AM on May 4, 2012 [3 favorites]


"She ended up started working as..."
posted by griphus at 9:32 AM on May 4, 2012


You know, not everyone has to have a career they're passionate about. There are plenty of educated, intelligent people out there who aren't driven by ambition - I'm one of them, for example. I graduated summa cum laude and I don't care about having a successful career; I care that I am respected and make enough money to live on, certainly, but I've never had that drive for passion that some people seem to feel regarding what they do for a living. Don't sweat the life partner thing, either; my husband is great and does have career aspirations and he thinks I'm just fine even though my major day to day goals are basically to read as many books as possible and hang out with my cats.

This is not to say you are like me, but I just want to let you know you don't have to be one of those people with passion for what you do. You can still live a happy life without it. I personally believe, at the end of my life, that my satisfaction with my years on this planet will come from things like family, friends, and seeing the world - not what I did for money.
posted by something something at 9:32 AM on May 4, 2012 [7 favorites]


I don't know what I want to do with my life and I'm 46. Perhaps I am not the person to be giving you advice ...
posted by devious truculent and unreliable at 9:34 AM on May 4, 2012 [6 favorites]


What everyone else is saying: #1 - you don't have to have a fabulous career that you love in order to be a happy, fulfilled human being. #2 - you are still really young.

I kind of love when 24-year-olds ask this type of question, because I think "Oh, you're being ridiculous! You're still so young!" and then that helps me realize that, at 33, I'm not really *that* much older, and I have very nearly as many options. I mean, I guess opera singing or professional athletics are probably out at this point.
posted by mskyle at 9:35 AM on May 4, 2012 [6 favorites]


I'm older than you and have no idea what I'm doing career-wise.
posted by 2bucksplus at 9:37 AM on May 4, 2012 [6 favorites]


Nthing the sentiment that you're still young! Our culture is full of representations of young people, real or fictional, that seem to have it all together from the womb. But almost no one's first job is their dream job, and almost no one has a clear path ahead of them from day one that goes off without a hitch. You'll find your way, almost everyone does!
posted by yellowbinder at 9:44 AM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]


Echoing the above, this is *completely normal* for someone 24.

Since you have a job, and you've successfully taken care of your basic needs on that level, now's the time to start exploring.

Take Learning Annex classes on various topics, attend MeetUp groups, volunteer, take weekend trips-- basically, meet people and find out about jobs and lifestyles you don't yet know about, or don't fully understand.

Particularly, when possible, learn about jobs that involve completely different functions than what you are doing now. Since you're writing and editing, try working with people, or doing things outdoors, or constructing things with your hands.

Finding out what you genuinely don't like can be a very useful part of deciding what you want to do; for that matter, the actual process of doing something, and the pleasures gained from it, can be very different from your abstract expectation of it.
posted by darth_tedious at 9:55 AM on May 4, 2012


It’s fine- it involves managing data, which is sometimes interesting, plus some writing and editing, which I really enjoy- but neither the role I play in my company nor the industry that the company works in have much interest for me. I look at the work my superiors do, and I really cannot see myself doing that sort of work in five or ten years. I don’t think I would be good at it and I certainly wouldn’t enjoy it.
I was in a similar boat when I came to NYC: I was working as photo clerk at Walgreens for years until I suddenly got a "real job" doing miscellaneous web work. This wasn't really my cup of tea, and for a long time I was as self-deprecating and dismissive about my job there as I was at Walgreens. I felt like it was silly or boring or nobody could take any interest in it. I wasn't terribly interested in what the company does (public relations) and I frankly felt like my job was just contributing to the heat death of the universe.

However, I have come to the realization that just because this particular job is kind of silly doesn't mean the work that I'm doing is meaningless, and as I've gotten better at doing it I'm discovering aspects of the job that I want to explore further. And as I do the job and learn about related fields and companies, I'm discovering jobs and careers that I hadn't even realized existed. I'm fortunate that my boss has a very hands-off approach on what I do, but in all of my work experiences I've found that if I do good work the management will let you, to an extent, determine what your job is.

In startup culture, there's this concept called a "pivot" where a company will look at its skills and its customers and suddenly realize that they've been in the wrong business all along. For example:
Before Twitter became a microblogging sensation it was a podcasting business. YouTube's founders were convinced they'd hit the jackpot with a video-dating site. PayPal's original mission was to beam IOUs from Palm Pilot to Palm Pilot. Flickr grew out of a massive multiplayer online game as a way for players to drop photos into text messages. Groupon emerged from a community promoting political action while online flash retailer Fab.com came out of a failed gay social network called Fabulis. Instagram's founders created a check-in technology called Blurbn before settling on photos. Pandora was a B2B music recommendation service. Yelp transitioned from email recommendations from friends to a local search and user review website.
Now, while I'm skeptical of anyone telling you to "follow your dreams" -- especially when you're not sure what that is -- I feel like "following your skills and interests" is not too far off that path, yet infinitely more pragmatic. A background in analytics and writing can be applied to a tremendous amount of fields, and you can "pivot" out of your job at Company X and see where these skills take you at a tech startup or a food coop or a media company.

Right now I feel fairly useless. My ability to do my job well matters to the people I work with, but I am very replaceable.
I also fear that my lack of a clear direction makes me a less attractive prospect for dating, because I tend to be interested in driven, passionate guys, and why would they want to date someone with no direction?

I strongly doubt that. And there's a difference between passion and direction -- passion is energy, whereas direction is focus. Most of the people I meet are passionate about something, even if its as trivial as pop culture. Whether someone has direction or focus can be an indicator of whether they're a good long term prospect, but it doesn't necessarily make them a more lovable or interesting person. I can't speak for your experience, but I certainly suspect that I've turned off way more people with my attitude about my job (and myself) than the job itself ever did.
posted by modernserf at 10:04 AM on May 4, 2012 [4 favorites]


Just came to add that you are also comparing your *inner* feelings to your friends' *outward* appearances about their jobs, careers, and plans, and how secure/confident they feel about them. You really can't fairly compare the two.

I'm sure that, ESPECIALLY at the mid-twenties' age, your friends have similar doubt and angst about their jobs and career choices. You just can't observe it, from the outside.
posted by shortyJBot at 10:09 AM on May 4, 2012


When I was in my early twenties, I didn't have any specific career goals or plans. I figured I'd spend a couple years in a generic job and somehow Find Myself and figure it out.

It wasn't until years and years later that I'd found myself: I'm right here. I've been here all this time, daydreaming and eating chips. It's not like there's this idealized dream-job version of me that I just need to discover and then it's all resolved. It's just the regular me, with my doubts and flaws, that I need to find a job for.

Every time you ask yourself "what am I doing with myself?" or "where should I be going?" answer it by doing something. Research career paths. Volunteer. Go to an art gallery or a concert. Do something new. Ask questions. Make friends. If you can't find a job you love right now, find the parts of your current job that you like the most and really work on developing them.

The important thing is that you do things, no matter what they are or how much potential they have. Work on your courage, open mind, and sense of adventure, and the skills and experience will fall into place. The sooner you start, the easier it will be down the road. And it's going to be way easier now than in ten years.
posted by Metroid Baby at 10:13 AM on May 4, 2012 [4 favorites]


So the actual question: what now? What do I do about this? What did YOU do, if you were in this situation before?

I was 24, living with my parents, had huge debt and I was working in the grocery business (for the third generation in my family), and hated every day of it.

I quit my job and went to work for the government in the mail room and eventually fell into IT from there. My life changed vastly for the better as soon as I did that, even though it was for way less money at first.

The sooner you start over the better. 24 is still a baby, really. My life at 30 was completely different (and better) at 30 than it was at 24, and it was because I was willing to start everything over again.
posted by empath at 10:16 AM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]


I remember when I was your age. I had dropped out of school and moved to a new state. So while I was gaining residency to go back to school, I got a job with a Phone Company, and I distinctly remember saying to myself, "Self, this will do until something better comes along." After 20 years in Telecom, I'm now doing something else.

Don't worry so much. Work isn't life (as many here have said). Rather than thinking vertically about career movement, think laterally. What other jobs are there in your company that are interesting? If that's no good, what other skills can you learn in your job that might lead to something you might like better.

Forget grad school, unless someone else is paying, it's worthless (it kind of is, even if someone else is paying.)

Think about what you enjoy, and then think about how you might turn that into a job.

I like being a corporate drone, I enjoy fiddling with my Excel spreadsheets. I like leaving exactly at 5:30 every night and not thinking about my job until the next work day. That's who I am.

Hang out where you are now, and keep your eyes and ears open, you never know what other jobs may pop up.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:20 AM on May 4, 2012


I've found that if you feel "directionless" like this, it helps to take a look at what it is you really like doing. Hobbies, things that get your mind moving, whatever. You may not be able to easily monetize your favorite activity, but being conscious of what it is can give you some direction.

A lot of people end up choosing career paths by thinking about what they can do for work that's easy to do, and not so terrible to tolerate - then think of how they can structure their "day job" to maximize the time they get to spend doing what they love. In some cases, what people like to do is something they can make money with, as well.

What moves you? What makes you happy? Take some time and think it through. Maybe try out some things and see where they go.
posted by Citrus at 10:30 AM on May 4, 2012


You are projecting societal pressures on to all of this. You don't actually need a 'career' to be happy in the first place. That concept is just a silly cliche in my world, honestly. As is being on some track right out of college, etc. All that is just some societal made up conformist shit. Spend a few years doing things you enjoy. You are really young. You have plenty of time to try on new hats to see what floats your boat. When that happens you can go into your work life with passion and joy. Even if it is a corporate job.

I didn't start my own business until I was in my late 30s. Did a bunch of random stuff before. My life has been way more interesting than someone who did college, career path, marriage, kids at the proper age, etc. That doesn't even sound like a life worth living to me.

Try to relax. You didn't miss any boat. You can have a few careers if you like. Or none at all. Just don't put all this pressure on yourself.
posted by Vaike at 10:36 AM on May 4, 2012 [3 favorites]


Part of this is societal expectations, true... but also, it's about money. I would like to have kids and be able to take the occasional vacation and retire at some point, and I guess it seems to me that I will not be able to get a job that pays me enough to do that, if it isn't a career-track job.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:55 AM on May 4, 2012


You don't really say what your interests are or much of anything other than that your priorities are the sort of job field where you are climbing a ladder and getting promotions and making a fair amount of money. If the money and ambition are more of a goal for you than say, working in showbiz (I'm guessing), then maybe it doesn't matter about doing something with your talents.

Just because "everyone else" has dreams and goals and entry level jobs in "their field", doesn't mean that they play out in real life when it comes down to the practicalities. Many--hell, most--people are just settling/puttering along in a job so that they can afford to have their lives outside of their jobs. Which is okay too.

in ten years, if nothing changes, they will be successful...

BWAHAHAHAHAH, "if nothing changes!" Sorry, but that's no longer a sure thing. Young folks get laid off frequently, and again, just because they seem like they will be Going Places doesn't always mean that they will.

I'm telling you this stuff so that you don't feel so bad that you're not living up to everyone else. These days you are doing SPECTACULARLY given the state the world is in.

But as to finding your dream career? Most of us still haven't figured it out yet, me included. Hell, I had a dream career that I hadn't been shooting or planning for and fell into, but that got killed off. I have pretty much fallen into jobs, so applying for various things might work for you. (Okay, hasn't worked in ten years, but before that it was going quite well.) Try them and see if any of them work for you. Maybe you'll find yourself caring more about another practical field than the one you are in now.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:23 AM on May 4, 2012


I would like to say this is helpful but I am not sure--but it least it frames the issue. I missed this portion of NPR (Weekend Edition) several weeks ago but your question sparked a memory that it was going to be on later in the show.

The Defining Decade:Why Your Twenties Matter and How to Make the Most of Them Now
posted by rmhsinc at 11:29 AM on May 4, 2012


Try to think more broadly. OK, so you're not crazy about your particular company or industry, but there are skills you can pick up in your current role, or in a role you might get promoted to, that are transferable to a company or industry you do like better. And that may not be a company or industry you know about right now, but over time as you become more experienced and are more exposed to different areas, you will learn about. I'm almost 30 and I've literally worked in 3 very different industries already and I am soon entering a fourth. But these are the skills I've found TRANSFER from place to place, industry to industry, that employers anywhere will be looking for:

1: Coming up with a business plan or strategy. This means having responsibility for a set amount of money, with the goal of driving sales or increasing profit or closing business - making money for the parent company however that looks for said parent company.
2: Managing people, delegating tasks, developing talent. If you can at some point be in charge of an intern or someone more junior or entry level than you, then you can put on your resume that you know how to manage people and develop talent. This will set you apart as a lot of people are afraid to manage others. Don't be.
3: Business analysis and operations. This means understanding company processes, how to work with and around them, and how to make them better. If you can suggest improvements to the way your company does business (and document that and be able to talk about it later), thereby decreasing costs, increasing profit and making your superiors' life easier, you're golden.

If I were you, I would start looking at my current job with a different set of eyes. Sure, it's not what you love, but there are things to learn and opportunities to explore that will make you a sought after employee once you decide where you do want to work. Take advantage while you have this gig. Take risks, especially because you know this isn't where you want to be forever.

Make a list of everything about life that you enjoy, and try to find companies or industries that relate to those things (do you love the outdoors? maybe you could work for a company that organizes hikes, or manufactures camping gear, or provides sailing lessons, or develops dehydrated food packs). Then start scheduling coffee meetings with anyone willing to talk about what they do. There are other threads on the green that go into more detail about how to get the most out of informational interviews.

Finally, try not to be insecure or worry that the guys you're interested in will look down on you if you don't have your career totally figured out. Some might, but you don't need judgmental guys like that. You really don't. I try not to generalize, but most guys I know and have dated were far more concerned with how I made them feel in the relationship - cared about/loved, looked after - than with my salary or career ambitions (or lack thereof, depending on the time). Project confidence and no one will doubt you.
posted by curtains at 11:35 AM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]


Go join the Coast Guard. Go rescue people for a living.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:41 PM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]


I'm at sort of a similar place myself right now as a twentysomething who sort of lost a sense of passion and direction in the year of unemployment/desperately trying to get any job.

My best recommendation, as someone who also cannot afford graduate school right now, is to check out taking some individual classes either online or through community college. Your work might even reimburse your for this. I took a continuing education class on editing, which I really enjoyed (set me back $300) and one on HTML and web design ($99 taken online). Maybe you could try a class in something totally random that you wish you had taken in college. I'm thinking of taking either a journalism or a biology class next.

It's not a graduate degree, but definitely built on my skills in areas of my current meh entry-level job that I enjoy the most.
posted by forkisbetter at 1:19 PM on May 4, 2012


Not everyone needs a plan. Actually, I think most people would be better off without one - but having one makes them feel less scared.

You've got plenty of time, so go easy on yourself, try out a few things and find out what you really enjoy doing - then do it until you feel the need to move on.

Book tips: What Color is Your Parachute and What Should I Do With My Life?

Good luck!
posted by ZipRibbons at 1:22 PM on May 4, 2012


If it's about money... how married are you to living in NYC? I grew up there and know a lot of people could never leave so I understand it could be an impossible choice... but it IS the most expensive city in the country. Have you thought about moving somewhere with a lower cost of living, where your money will go farther? It's true there salaries in NY are somewhat higher to adjust for the high cost of living, but really, housing costs for most people are a much bigger chunk of expenses in NY than they are elsewhere. I don't know how people do it, honestly.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 1:26 PM on May 4, 2012


I'm your age. My motto? "The Plan is everything, forget the plan"
posted by hellojed at 1:32 PM on May 4, 2012


If it's about money... how married are you to living in NYC? I grew up there and know a lot of people could never leave so I understand it could be an impossible choice... but it IS the most expensive city in the country. Have you thought about moving somewhere with a lower cost of living, where your money will go farther?

Funny story... I moved here on a whim because I had a place to crash for free, and then found this job. So that was awesome, except now I live pretty much paycheck to paycheck and thus would not be able to leave if I wanted to, unless I managed to land another job before I moved...
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:54 PM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]


There's a thing about America that everyone else in the world finds sad and strange, in that you're expected to make your job your life.
Oh piffle. Most people in the world who really achieve anything do so because they've committed to doing the thing that they really like doing. Yes, you can have a ho-hum job assembling widgets and go home to compose, but most people who compose or write poetry in their spare time, also do pretty well at their day gig, too (Charles Ives, TS Eliot, etc..)

I fell into my career, but it was an orchestrated fall, and I see that while I wasn't madly in love with my first job out of college, I was developing the skills that got me where I am. Forget about everyone else's story arc. Figure out what your strengths are and where those strengths are needed.
posted by Ideefixe at 4:56 PM on May 4, 2012


When I was 24, I would have bailed from my job in a heartbeat. I was 3 years out of college working in a job that applied my practical degree that I didn't love in a job that I found tedious. Now, 3 years later, I still have the same job, but I've been trying to take the time to appreciate what I do and find ways to learn new things about it.

What has helped is trying to make my job sound more interesting to me; it's easy to frame it as corporate drudgery instead of as a way to serve people, for instance. As time has gone on, I've discovered that I'm pretty good at what I do, I know a lot about it, and there's a lot to learn about my niche of a niche field (medical device sterilization, for what it's worth.)

The payoff of this is being contacted for jobs that are more specific toward the areas of my work in which I hold interest. I haven't taken them yet, but I (finally) feel like I'm at a point where I matter. If I had run away 3 years ago, I'd probably be equally stuck, because my definition of a good job was something new or something that resembled a professional blogger. Now I realize that my past dreams were not really what I want long-term.

So, I guess my advice is to find ways to make it interesting and do little things at work that you want to do. Merlin Mann's Back to Work podcast is great for this.
posted by Turkey Glue at 2:10 PM on May 8, 2012


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