Does Limping Hurt?
April 10, 2012 11:09 PM Subscribe
Our 10 year old Australian Cattle dog, Zoe, has arthritis. She limps if she plays too hard or goes on too long of a walk. She is taking high quality supplements. What's the best way to proceed?
To reiterate, Zoe is 10 years old and has been diagnosed with arthritis. She just saw the vet a couple weeks ago and had bloodwork done - she has a clean bill of health otherwise.
She takes high quality arthritis supplements as previously recommended by AskMe. Specifically, every day she gets 4-5 pumps of Eicosaderm (the therapeutic dose for arthritis), and a tablet of Dasuquin. She was getting Cosequin up until we finished the bottle, we just switched.
She eats Purina Pro Plan for Sensitive Skin and Stomach, which I understand is a midrange food - not ideal, but a good quality / cost ratio. We would prefer not to feed her something very expensive, the supplements are quite expensive already.
When I walk Zoe - I've been pretty consistent about 40 minutes every day, and we usually cover about 2 miles in that time - she usually has a slight limp at the end of it, but a couple hours afterwards, she's back to normal. We just went out of town for a couple days, and Zoe was at doggy daycare - they reported that Zoe started limping noticeably, and now that it's been 24 hours since we picked her up, she's still limping.
Questions:
- Is there anything else we can do to alleviate her arthritis? I've heard a grain free diet could be very helpful, the reason we haven't tried it yet is cost and Zoe is very picky about her food.
- In the meantime, should I stop walking Zoe or cut down on the walks a lot? She really enjoys them, but I don't want to hurt her. I don't know if it's okay for her to exert herself and then limp a little bit, or if it's Very Important to ensure that she never limps at all.
Thanks!
To reiterate, Zoe is 10 years old and has been diagnosed with arthritis. She just saw the vet a couple weeks ago and had bloodwork done - she has a clean bill of health otherwise.
She takes high quality arthritis supplements as previously recommended by AskMe. Specifically, every day she gets 4-5 pumps of Eicosaderm (the therapeutic dose for arthritis), and a tablet of Dasuquin. She was getting Cosequin up until we finished the bottle, we just switched.
She eats Purina Pro Plan for Sensitive Skin and Stomach, which I understand is a midrange food - not ideal, but a good quality / cost ratio. We would prefer not to feed her something very expensive, the supplements are quite expensive already.
When I walk Zoe - I've been pretty consistent about 40 minutes every day, and we usually cover about 2 miles in that time - she usually has a slight limp at the end of it, but a couple hours afterwards, she's back to normal. We just went out of town for a couple days, and Zoe was at doggy daycare - they reported that Zoe started limping noticeably, and now that it's been 24 hours since we picked her up, she's still limping.
Questions:
- Is there anything else we can do to alleviate her arthritis? I've heard a grain free diet could be very helpful, the reason we haven't tried it yet is cost and Zoe is very picky about her food.
- In the meantime, should I stop walking Zoe or cut down on the walks a lot? She really enjoys them, but I don't want to hurt her. I don't know if it's okay for her to exert herself and then limp a little bit, or if it's Very Important to ensure that she never limps at all.
Thanks!
Poor Zoe! Other than diet and weight control, I don't think there's a lot you can do without pain killers. You can give your dog Tylenol or an NSAID like aspirin (never, ever Ibuprofen) or your vet can write Tramadol for you. She can advise dosing over the phone; you don't need a visit.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:10 AM on April 11, 2012
posted by DarlingBri at 12:10 AM on April 11, 2012
She's limping because she has pain. If my dog was limping every day, he'd be on an anti-inflammatory at the least. DarlingBri is right: ask your vet what they advise for daily pain.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 2:05 AM on April 11, 2012
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 2:05 AM on April 11, 2012
Our (now departed) arthritic dog showed remarkable improvement when we switched her from her regular kibble to the "senior formula" that had glucosamine and chondroitin in it.
posted by DrGail at 3:57 AM on April 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by DrGail at 3:57 AM on April 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
We have an older dog too who will also limps worse and worse with increasing amounts of activity. She looooves to play though and will keep on running and fetching and running and being crazy no matter how much pain she's in. I think this is along the lines of 'stoicism'. So we try to get her a lot of low impact exercise (comfortably paced walking) rather than the intervaled back-and-forth run-stop kind of activity she seems keen on... My husband noticed that she seems more comfortable with a slightly fast walk so she can kinda trot rather than the more awkward back-and-forth walk that happens when we really slow her down. Hopefully, you'll understand what I mean form that poor description
We also have a standing order of Rimadyl to keep her comfortable. If she is limping in the evening, we give her one of these with dinner and she is fine within a few hours. With any NSAID and (especially) an older dog, though, your vet should keep an eye on liver and kidney function -- NSAIDs can be hard on the livers and kidneys....or in some dogs, they can be perfectly innocuous.
We also have her on Glycoflex, but it sounds like you have the supplements covered.
Besides the fact that you want to keep your dog comfortable, the pain from arthritis can lead to other issues. One joint being sore can lead to imbalance and soreness in another. Also, our dog evidently got so sore in one leg that she tried to 'lick it better', and licked all the fur off one foot in roughly a day....poor puppy....the NSAIDs have prevented a recurrence of that....
posted by Tandem Affinity at 5:16 AM on April 11, 2012
We also have a standing order of Rimadyl to keep her comfortable. If she is limping in the evening, we give her one of these with dinner and she is fine within a few hours. With any NSAID and (especially) an older dog, though, your vet should keep an eye on liver and kidney function -- NSAIDs can be hard on the livers and kidneys....or in some dogs, they can be perfectly innocuous.
We also have her on Glycoflex, but it sounds like you have the supplements covered.
Besides the fact that you want to keep your dog comfortable, the pain from arthritis can lead to other issues. One joint being sore can lead to imbalance and soreness in another. Also, our dog evidently got so sore in one leg that she tried to 'lick it better', and licked all the fur off one foot in roughly a day....poor puppy....the NSAIDs have prevented a recurrence of that....
posted by Tandem Affinity at 5:16 AM on April 11, 2012
DrGail, I think Zoe is getting glucosamine and chondroitin via the Dasuquin, at least that was my take on it. Those two helped our pooch as well.
OP, I don't remember dosages but aspirin should be an option. Like DarlingBri said absolutely avoid Ibuprofen as it's not helpful at all and downright harmful and dangerous beyond a certain point. I'd look online for dosage guides for administering aspirin for a dog of Zoe's size and see how that goes, I wouldn't go straight to a vet before trying that, from what I've heard fairly safe/common, step myself.
posted by RolandOfEld at 5:19 AM on April 11, 2012
OP, I don't remember dosages but aspirin should be an option. Like DarlingBri said absolutely avoid Ibuprofen as it's not helpful at all and downright harmful and dangerous beyond a certain point. I'd look online for dosage guides for administering aspirin for a dog of Zoe's size and see how that goes, I wouldn't go straight to a vet before trying that, from what I've heard fairly safe/common, step myself.
posted by RolandOfEld at 5:19 AM on April 11, 2012
Here's a OTC doggie/kitty dosage guide from a site that seems to be vet related.
*** ATTENTION! IT SAYS TYLENOL IS TOXIC ***
Someone mentioned Tylenol one of the above recommendations and I have zero knowledge as to which route to believe. I'd avoid to be safe. Aspirin is fine indeed.
posted by RolandOfEld at 5:24 AM on April 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
*** ATTENTION! IT SAYS TYLENOL IS TOXIC ***
Someone mentioned Tylenol one of the above recommendations and I have zero knowledge as to which route to believe. I'd avoid to be safe. Aspirin is fine indeed.
posted by RolandOfEld at 5:24 AM on April 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
Please do not give your pet human NSAIDs without consulting your veterinarian, even aspirin. There are several NSAIDs designed specifically for dogs, and your vet should be able to offer you several options for pain management, including non-pharmacological options. If you mentioned this occasional limping at your recent visit, I am kind of shocked that they did not address it at that point. If you didn't, you should arrange for her to be checked out again, so that they can rule out anything other than arthritis before proceeding.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:04 AM on April 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Rock Steady at 6:04 AM on April 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
I don't see anything in your post about a recent visit to the vet. Why not? This is a pretty common problem amongst older dogs and most vets are very well educated about arthritis. NEVER give your pet OTC drugs without EXPLICIT DIRECTIONS FROM YOUR VET ON DOSING.
I work in a vet clinic and we commonly see Acetaminophen and Ibuprofen toxicoses in dogs and cats because their owners "meant well."
Seriously, see your vet.
posted by OsoMeaty at 6:07 AM on April 11, 2012
I work in a vet clinic and we commonly see Acetaminophen and Ibuprofen toxicoses in dogs and cats because their owners "meant well."
Seriously, see your vet.
posted by OsoMeaty at 6:07 AM on April 11, 2012
Your dog is in pain, and her pain needs to be managed by the veterinarian.
posted by OsoMeaty at 6:08 AM on April 11, 2012
posted by OsoMeaty at 6:08 AM on April 11, 2012
My older lab has arthritis and we recently added Tramadol, a pain reliever, to his regimen. He is already on rimadyl (the generic version, I forgot the name) and Dasuquin. The addition of the Tramadol seems to have improved his happiness and peppyness on walks/trips to the dog park. Nthing the advice above for regular vet visits to assess the effect of meds.
posted by Cocodrillo at 6:17 AM on April 11, 2012
posted by Cocodrillo at 6:17 AM on April 11, 2012
Response by poster: As I mentioned, Zoe was at the vet a couple weeks ago and is healthy aside from the arthritis. We did not mention the limping because the limping from walks is very slight and I wasn't sure if I was imagining it. The limping from daycare level playing is more pronounced, but happened after the visit.
We will definitely call the vet before giving Zoe human drugs!
posted by insectosaurus at 6:51 AM on April 11, 2012
We will definitely call the vet before giving Zoe human drugs!
posted by insectosaurus at 6:51 AM on April 11, 2012
Darnit! Sorry. You might like to consider Sasha's Blend, which is very popular among dog sport people.
posted by HotToddy at 6:56 AM on April 11, 2012
posted by HotToddy at 6:56 AM on April 11, 2012
When you saw the veterinarian last, did he/she evaluate for CCL injury? CCL injuries can cause limping/lameness. There is a very simple manipulation the vet can do--some do it under sedation but others can do it without--that will tell the vet if the knee is blown.
The way my vet explained it, a lot of dogs blow the CCL and then the scar tissue that builds up continues to support the knee, so you don't even know there's a problem (aside from the periodic limping). Arthritis can be connected to scar tissue, too, so it's sometimes impossible to say which caused which. At least that's what I was told.
I have an 8-year-old Westie who would limp on and off, and then suddenly went lame in his left hind leg. He had corrective CCL surgery (the suture, since he is a smaller dog at 22 lbs), is taking Dasuquin daily (and Rimadyl, as needed) and as is spritely as ever, although he still does limp when he plays too long with his border collie cousin. We have managed to get his weight down from 30 lbs, so that will help in the long term, too.
If the limping doesn't get better, particularly with an NSAID--the drug combo of choice around here seems to be tramadol and Rimadyl--please have Zoe re-evaluated.
I hope she feels better soon. It's very distressing to see your pup in pain.
posted by FergieBelle at 7:34 AM on April 11, 2012
The way my vet explained it, a lot of dogs blow the CCL and then the scar tissue that builds up continues to support the knee, so you don't even know there's a problem (aside from the periodic limping). Arthritis can be connected to scar tissue, too, so it's sometimes impossible to say which caused which. At least that's what I was told.
I have an 8-year-old Westie who would limp on and off, and then suddenly went lame in his left hind leg. He had corrective CCL surgery (the suture, since he is a smaller dog at 22 lbs), is taking Dasuquin daily (and Rimadyl, as needed) and as is spritely as ever, although he still does limp when he plays too long with his border collie cousin. We have managed to get his weight down from 30 lbs, so that will help in the long term, too.
If the limping doesn't get better, particularly with an NSAID--the drug combo of choice around here seems to be tramadol and Rimadyl--please have Zoe re-evaluated.
I hope she feels better soon. It's very distressing to see your pup in pain.
posted by FergieBelle at 7:34 AM on April 11, 2012
We have an arthritic 14-year old Cattle Dog. In addition to the Dasuquin, we also have him on Welactin, an omega-3 supplement. We also use Metacam, an oral suspension, for occasional pain relief.
One thing the vet recommended was mid-back massages to keep the skin there loose, because if it adheres too closely to the underlying muscles, it can make walking painful.
We go to a vet who has extensively studied senior dog care; maybe you could try to find someone similar in your area?
posted by chocolatepeanutbuttercup at 7:35 AM on April 11, 2012
One thing the vet recommended was mid-back massages to keep the skin there loose, because if it adheres too closely to the underlying muscles, it can make walking painful.
We go to a vet who has extensively studied senior dog care; maybe you could try to find someone similar in your area?
posted by chocolatepeanutbuttercup at 7:35 AM on April 11, 2012
Do you have access to a warm pool? When my dog was diagnosed with arthritis (spine and knees) I found a water therapy place that I took her to a couple times of week (expensive? yes, but she was worth it).
http://wellspringsk9.com/
You don't necessarily need to take her to a masseuse, but water exercise helps dramatically with arthritic dogs--well, assuming your dog even likes the water.
Best of luck (and please give Zoe a giant hug for us!)
posted by Zoyashka at 8:44 AM on April 11, 2012
http://wellspringsk9.com/
You don't necessarily need to take her to a masseuse, but water exercise helps dramatically with arthritic dogs--well, assuming your dog even likes the water.
Best of luck (and please give Zoe a giant hug for us!)
posted by Zoyashka at 8:44 AM on April 11, 2012
Logged on to recommend Sasha's Blend but see I was beaten to it. It was very helpful for my brothers very aged and stoic pitbull and helped keep him active well into his mid teens.
Also talk to your vet about pain relief, it doesn't have to be expensive, and may well be an aspirin but they will be able to suggest other options and will give you the correct doses. If your dog is limping it is most likely hurting, but exercising is important for managing arthritis and if she recovers quickly that is good, you could consider cutting the walks down a smidge to see if that helps or doing the same distance but slowly so it is less strain on her.
If you can get your dog to take a fish oil tablet too that can help as upping the Omega 3 oils in the diet can be good for inflammation in the joints, talk to your vet about dosage. Not all dogs take them, some eat them like candy others you have to poke a hole in the tablet and pour it on their food. A good sploge of olive oil on their food can be help too as it's full of Omega 3 as well and if money is a worry is cheaper than fish oil tablets, though make sure you get a good quality ev olive oil.
Keep your dog warm, and make sure they have a nice soft bed to sleep on, though not so soft they have trouble getting up if stiff. In winter you can get heated dog beds, or at least make sure your dog has a nice warm blanket, my brothers dog only had mild Australian winters to get through but he loved his heated bed when his old joints where aching.
posted by wwax at 8:44 AM on April 11, 2012
Also talk to your vet about pain relief, it doesn't have to be expensive, and may well be an aspirin but they will be able to suggest other options and will give you the correct doses. If your dog is limping it is most likely hurting, but exercising is important for managing arthritis and if she recovers quickly that is good, you could consider cutting the walks down a smidge to see if that helps or doing the same distance but slowly so it is less strain on her.
If you can get your dog to take a fish oil tablet too that can help as upping the Omega 3 oils in the diet can be good for inflammation in the joints, talk to your vet about dosage. Not all dogs take them, some eat them like candy others you have to poke a hole in the tablet and pour it on their food. A good sploge of olive oil on their food can be help too as it's full of Omega 3 as well and if money is a worry is cheaper than fish oil tablets, though make sure you get a good quality ev olive oil.
Keep your dog warm, and make sure they have a nice soft bed to sleep on, though not so soft they have trouble getting up if stiff. In winter you can get heated dog beds, or at least make sure your dog has a nice warm blanket, my brothers dog only had mild Australian winters to get through but he loved his heated bed when his old joints where aching.
posted by wwax at 8:44 AM on April 11, 2012
insectosaurus: "As I mentioned, Zoe was at the vet a couple weeks ago and is healthy aside from the arthritis. We did not mention the limping because the limping from walks is very slight and I wasn't sure if I was imagining it. The limping from daycare level playing is more pronounced, but happened after the visit."
It's an easy thing to forget to mention at a visit if it is not a constant problem. It's worth starting the conversation with them about it now (even over the phone), as it will establish a baseline that they can refer back to if the limp ever gets worse. Don't walk her today (or take her on a very short walk), and I'd suggest getting her checked out for this current spate of limping if it persists another 12-24 hours to rule out acute injury, though it could well be a worse than usual arthritis flare-up if she was playing hard all day at day care.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:01 AM on April 11, 2012
It's an easy thing to forget to mention at a visit if it is not a constant problem. It's worth starting the conversation with them about it now (even over the phone), as it will establish a baseline that they can refer back to if the limp ever gets worse. Don't walk her today (or take her on a very short walk), and I'd suggest getting her checked out for this current spate of limping if it persists another 12-24 hours to rule out acute injury, though it could well be a worse than usual arthritis flare-up if she was playing hard all day at day care.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:01 AM on April 11, 2012
In human beings, anxiety is one of the comorbidities of rheumatoid arthritis.
The explanation for this in the page I linked is mostly garble, but I think it's fairly clear that rheumatoid arthritis causes anxiety, because anxiety is associated with the production of higher levels of cortisol by the adrenal glands, cortisol is a potent endogenous immunosupressant, and rheumatoid arthritis is an autoimmune disease, so the body initiates anxiety as a way of reducing the arthritis.
I think you should get your vet to evaluate Zoe for rheumatoid arthritis. If she has it and can be successfully treated, you might get a bonus of much less anxiety to deal with.
In the meantime, I would try cutting down on her exercise quite a bit.
posted by jamjam at 12:11 AM on April 12, 2012
The explanation for this in the page I linked is mostly garble, but I think it's fairly clear that rheumatoid arthritis causes anxiety, because anxiety is associated with the production of higher levels of cortisol by the adrenal glands, cortisol is a potent endogenous immunosupressant, and rheumatoid arthritis is an autoimmune disease, so the body initiates anxiety as a way of reducing the arthritis.
I think you should get your vet to evaluate Zoe for rheumatoid arthritis. If she has it and can be successfully treated, you might get a bonus of much less anxiety to deal with.
In the meantime, I would try cutting down on her exercise quite a bit.
posted by jamjam at 12:11 AM on April 12, 2012
My 12 year old Sheltie is on tramadol, now up to 50 mg 3 times a day if I am reading the tiny print correctly. He sleeps a lot but feels much better. (He is a large Sheltie at 45 pounds.)
posted by andreap at 11:29 AM on April 14, 2012
posted by andreap at 11:29 AM on April 14, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
Not always so much fun going through the motions but you feel better after.
That daily walk is giving you both many more years/days/hours than you might otherwise have.
One thing though: this breed is well-known for its stoicism, of course not all dogs/breeds do this but in general she would/will put up with a shit-load of pain if she thinks she is doing her dog-ly job; this breed is very loyal and will "work" (whatever you ask her to do) for the sake of doing a "good job" so be mindful of that and don't push her too much.
Her picture is lovely and shows her classic cattle-dog bloodlines.
posted by bebrave! at 11:48 PM on April 10, 2012 [1 favorite]