Help my SO and I solve this intricate PhD two-body problem.
March 26, 2012 7:46 PM   Subscribe

Help my SO and I solve this intricate PhD two-body problem. Options galore!

Alright. First off, apologies for the loaded question, but I really, really can use some help thinking out loud. I am a senior in college going for a Phd in Electrical Engineering in 2013. I am in at a few places, and I am trying to decide between two of these options. The locations of the grad schools are: College Park, MD and Ithaca, NY. I have fellowships at both of these schools, so that is not a deciding factor.

Now, here's the complication. I have been dating my boyfriend for the past 3.5 years, and I am very happy. He's awesome, and I really see us marrying one day (we have talked about it). He's even becoming pretty competent at my native language (I am not from the US). My main worry is that he will be working in NYC for at least a year, living in probably Hoboken, NJ (or around the area). He's willing to move out to where I am going to grad school at, but obviously he'd have to get a new job. This is where the problem starts. My top choice currently (I haven't visited the school in College Park yet) is the school in Ithaca. Honestly, I am worried if we will be able to make our relationship work. It would be about a 4 hour drive, and we would be seeing each other either every weekend, or every other weekend. Since we have been practically living together for the past 3.5 years, this has hit us both pretty hard. The problem with Ithaca is that he wouldn't really be able to get a job there (he's a Mechanical Eng. Econ double major), so we'd be "long distance" for 4-5 years (however long it takes me to finish a PhD). If I were to move to College Park instead, he could move there with me in about a year.

So given this background info, my question is twofold:
1. During all my visits the grad students that I have been talking to have been telling me how it's a bad idea not to go to your top choice because of a relationship. They say while the relationship is not guaranteed, the school is and one should not sacrifice one's career for relationships. I feel as if I am willing to make to sacrifice (and go to the school in College Park), but everybody keeps telling me how bad of an idea it is. Keep in mind I have not visited yet, so I don't really know how good of a fit it is. This school however, it less "awesome" compared to the school in Ithaca. Is it as bad as they make it out to be? Would I be a stupid person if I choose a slightly worse fit to keep my relationship?

2. The Ithaca schools offers many benefits. It's superb in the field, it has an amazing Hotel Management/Food Science program (a true dream of mine, I can minor in it because there are no course requirements), I can see myself working with 4-5 professors. It is however, in a tiny, tiny town. Do you think the 4 hour drive 3-4 times a month is doable? (I would be on a 38K fellowship on top of tuition coverage, and he would be making a pretty decent amount too - this figure is to account for driving costs.) Is this realistic? Will it result in a burn-out in the future? Am I insane in thinking that 5 years like this will kill us?

Please help me. My friends are not really giving me much hope either way. I really want to make this work.
posted by kuju to Human Relations (35 answers total) 4 users marked this as a favorite
What's the job placement record at both of these places? You should check that as well as all the rest. What will your fellow students be like? (This can be surprisingly important in making a programme a decent experience). While it is true you cannot rely on a relationship to be there forever, it is also true that having a good relationship can make the difference between staying in a programme and running screaming from it at comps.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 7:57 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]

I went to my second-choice college because I was sure I was going to marry my high school flame. It was literally the biggest mistake of my life. People warned me. I ignored them. We broke up, I transferred- not to my original choice- and ended up graduating late.

Married people with kids can make those sacrifices, but young people in their first career track shouldn't, IMO.
posted by quincunx at 7:59 PM on March 26, 2012 [4 favorites]

You do not "minor" in anything while pursuing a PhD. Why would you even want to do that? You're committing yourself to becoming a world expert in a topic in electrical engineering.

That said, the long distance thing is certainly possible. I've seen people maintain cross-country relationships for years. It's stressful, though.

Seriously, though. If your true dream is to pursue food science and hotel management, why aren't you following that dream? A PhD program will be miserable if you already know you'd rather be doing something else.
posted by mr_roboto at 7:59 PM on March 26, 2012 [16 favorites]

Most people who are your age (end of college) do not end up staying in their relationship, even if it's awesome. Some people do, of course. How will you end up feeling if you go to the College Park school and break up in a year? What if you break up in three years? Will you regret your decision, or will you be glad that you gave it a try?
posted by insectosaurus at 8:00 PM on March 26, 2012 [4 favorites]

I compromised on where I went to law school because my relationship with my (now) wife was much more important to me than the marginal difference between where I went to go to school and where I could have gone to school. I have zero regrets.

Wonderful relationships are precious. The difference between going to school A and school B would seem to be much less important in the grand scheme of things.

That being said, my comment would be different if you hadn't described yourself as very happy, your boyfriend as awesome, you discussing marriage, him learning your language, and so on.

You're not even a little bit stupid for valuing your meaningful relationship over school, and shame on anyone who makes you feel that way.

Good luck.
posted by MoonOrb at 8:01 PM on March 26, 2012 [12 favorites]

amazing Hotel Management/Food Science program (a true dream of mine, I can minor in it because there are no course requirements),

Just wanted to say that this food science program sounds kinda sketchy if it doesn't have course requirements. I mean, what kind of program doesn't have certain requisites to take?

Grad students always warn that grad school is much different from undergrad. I would think having your boyfriend close by to escape the academic world would keep you sane and less stressed over the experience. If College Park isn't much much worse than Ithaca then I say go there. Why is it less awesome than Ithaca anyway? What critera are you / the grad students using? Maybe in the long run it's not that big a deal.
posted by ditto75 at 8:02 PM on March 26, 2012 [2 favorites]

If Ithaca called up and told you that you were no longer welcome -- what would your reaction be?

"Ok, that sucks, but is really ok. I have another good program that wants me."

If your boyfriend said the same -- what would your reaction be?

I suspect you would be way more torn on losing your love.

Make it easier on your love and your general life happiness.

Jobs come and go. Careers change. Those grad students giving you advice haven't really lived yet, they are just students living in a vaccum. Once you are out of your EE program, it won't matter much where you went to school for post grad, you will do great.

You will look back and regret a love you let get away.

I have been with my wife through medical school and surgery residency. When it started, our WHOLE lives were ahead of us and it seemed like life was long. At the end it is a huge chunk of your life spent on school|location|whatever -- and in the end, family and love really is all that matters.
posted by LeanGreen at 8:03 PM on March 26, 2012 [7 favorites]

I assume you're talking about Cornell and the University of Maryland? I might be biased because my dad went to Cornell, but everyone he knows who was in the hospitality school ended up with their dream job. It's a fantastic school and you'll get a great education there. I don't know about the other school personally, but even you said that one school has major benefits over the other.

I'm a non-traditional student back working on my undergrad. The first 2 schools I went to were good schools but just not right for me -- don't discount how you feel about a school. I value my education more and work harder because I feel the expectations are higher at the school I'm at now.

There is also the factor that your boyfriend does not have a guaranteed job when he graduates no matter where you go to school!! So I think you should put less weight on that. If he's as employable as you expect him to be, perhaps he could look for a job close to, but not in, Ithaca.

This is hard for me, because I've been through a serious LDR that didn't work out, and my current bf and I face a period of LDR after he graduates from his master's program (I have probably 1 more semester than him and he plans to go to med school after he graduates, who knows where). They're tough things, and I don't envy that you'll have that year apart. Good luck on figuring out the best thing for your career and relationship.

Also major congrats on having these options!
posted by DoubleLune at 8:07 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]

I'm usually one to advocate for choosing where the best program is and you feel your career would most benefit from. You may be willing to 'sacrifice' to go to College Park, but a 4-5 year long commitment to doing such when you don't know where your relationship (as strong as it is now) is going might not be the wisest choice, especially as the distance is not insurmountable.

Anecdotally, my SO and I did almost 2 years long distance (4-5 hours between cities) and saw each other every weekend. However, we didn't drive often and became well versed in train travel. Is transportation like this an option? I loved those long trips for the solid study time it gave me. The car is also very doable though, and you can download audiobooks etc. I don't think you should worry about 'burnout' from doing this twice a month (each of you). Also to point out, I also know several couples who did similar distances for years, and have made this work (driving).

Caution, though - wait until you visit the other school in order to really get a good grasp on the picture. You can stay up all night worrying about this decision, but until you have all the facts in place, you can't really see the big picture.
posted by msrobinson at 8:08 PM on March 26, 2012 [2 favorites]

A few things:

1. The Ithaca school is Cornell, and they really don't have any course requirements for the EE PhD (apart from what's deemed necessary by your advisor). They really are solid (ranked #8 if it matters.)

2. It really is true that you have to minor in an unrelated field (most people do it in CS or Math though), and that person is a 3rd person on your committee. I like culinary arts/ECE equally, and they are both passions of mine.

3. I am almost 23, which is very young, but I would say both my SO and I are further along in terms of "life stages". I moved from another country to the US by myself at 18, and he started his own business in Africa a summer ago (which is his dream). So maybe that'll change things a bit.

I will shut up right now (threadsitting!), and thank you all for the advice.
posted by kuju at 8:10 PM on March 26, 2012

I'm seconding MoonOrb I think the hardest thing would be to find someone to find you happy..

And I don't understand how, like quincunx said, that picking a second choice school can be the "biggest mistake of one's life". You are making a gamble whether the relationship works out or not, nothing is guaranteed. But is that happiness worth the disadvantages of whatever could happen if you go to the 2nd choice school.

Or, you could pick a school maybe 1/2 the distance away?
posted by eq21 at 8:10 PM on March 26, 2012

Just wanted to say that this food science program sounds kinda sketchy if it doesn't have course requirements. I mean, what kind of program doesn't have certain requisites to take?

1) If she's talking about Cornell, which I'm pretty she is, it is one of the most reputable programs in the U.S.

2) My geology minor at UPenn has one required course and then 5 electives in the department, so I describe it as not having specific requirements. I'd say that's fairly common for minors.
posted by DoubleLune at 8:10 PM on March 26, 2012

Both of those schools are very good programs, though the one in Ithaca has a better reputation. It all comes down to what advisor you want to work with, and your research. If there is a specific field you're interested in and the department in college park has a hotshot professor in that field that you want to work with, then College Park is the better choice, regardless of overall reputation.

The other choice is to reapply to a school on the same caliber as the school in Ithaca but someplace your boyfriend can get a job. Long distance relationships aren't feasible over the long term unless at least one partner is willing to make major changes to move.
posted by deanc at 8:10 PM on March 26, 2012

The problem with Ithaca is that he wouldn't really be able to get a job there (he's a Mechanical Eng. Econ double major), so we'd be "long distance" for 4-5 years (however long it takes me to finish a PhD). If I were to move to College Park instead, he could move there with me in about a year.

I'm not convinced that your BF can't get a job there in Ithaca. I really think HE is the one who should be adjusting his plans here.
posted by jayder at 8:12 PM on March 26, 2012 [11 favorites]

I'd ask the question differently. This isn't a boyfriend v. phd program question. This is a, "Would College Park have enough of a support system in place for me to achieve my goals" question.

That includes hopefully at least 2 faculty already with tenure, who I could see myself working with, because I've talked with them and their advisees, and they seem like they'd understand my area of research, we get along, and they have a track record of getting advisees through in a timely manner, and those advisees end up in career paths that I want.

Tenure, because you don't want them to leave before you do. More than one, because you want a back up, in case things don't work out with the first. Understand my area of research, because regardless of how much you like them, you really don't want someone who can't critique your area of work in any useful way - you need an informed reader to help you when you get stuck, not just a cheerleader. They have a track record of getting advisees through, because without it there may be something jinky about what they are requiring of their advisees to be sufficient to defend (I'm going to need another chapter....). And finally, advisees end up in career choices that you want to go into, because there are few things more cliche than the student who wants to pursue a career in industry, but their advisor considers anything less than an academic position unacceptable. Also, if advisees are on career paths that you like, you can network with them, and it's likely that your advisor will be useful with contacts and advice. If not, it means you are at a disadvantage. Also, check for career services, and any support to move you towards your career.

Other than that, funding and quality of life issues are important.

So, if College Park isn't hitting about 80% of that, I'd think long and hard before going, because it will become a uphill battle by year 3. Heck, go back and review if Ithaca meets those standards. If College Park does, then go there. If not, find out if anyone else in Ithaca is doing the long distance thing. That always helps. A support group. I mention this as someone who did four years long distance (eight hours driving, or four, by plane, door to door).
posted by anitanita at 8:14 PM on March 26, 2012 [13 favorites]

I'm an engineering grad student at Cornell. I know many people who are in long distance relationships in which they drive 4-6 hours (NYC, Boston, DC/Baltimore, Philly, etc.) every other week or so to see their SO. It just happens that most of the couples I know who live within driving distance are still together, but it's tough. Cost is probably not a huge issue. Cornell pays well and the cost of living isn't all that high.

I wouldn't put a high value on the prospect of minoring in those fields in your decision, because (1) it depends on your advisor and (2) those courses will have enrollment limits. I'm not saying you can't do it, but it shouldn't be a huge factor in your decision.

I also think that it's possible for him to find a job here or in one of the nearby cities (Cortland, Binghamton, Syracuse, Rochester, Corning). 1 hour is much better than 4-5.

And yes definitely visit, if at all possible.
posted by bread-eater at 8:16 PM on March 26, 2012 [4 favorites]

I think you are being too fast to say that your partner couldn't move with you. I mean, what happens when you finish the phd program? If you are staying in academia, you will have to move to where the job is, that is the way academia works. So, he needs to think about whether or not he is willing to make some sacrifices for your career, or not. Either way, you should go to Cornell, because it is the better school -- either he makes the career sacrifice and follows you (solving the two body problem), or he isn't willing to make the sacrifice and you leave him behind (solving the two body problem).

And everything anitanita says about evaluating the schools -- if a place can't offer you those things, you don't want to be going there.
posted by Forktine at 8:16 PM on March 26, 2012 [2 favorites]

Oh, and we got married after graduation, so it can work out. Good luck!
posted by anitanita at 8:16 PM on March 26, 2012

The problem with Ithaca is that he wouldn't really be able to get a job there

Are you sure about this? Is it that he wouldn't be able to get His Dream Job or that he wouldn't be able to get a job, period?

Please consider what anitanita is saying about evaluating the schools. In addition to what they said you also need to talk with the other students in the department to see their experiences and how the departments work as a whole. These things should be driving your choices, because without support, a good adviser, etc you are not going to finish. I know a woman who was 3-4 years into her PhD and her adviser took off, only two weeks notice. She had to start all over as there was nobody else in the department doing that work. I don't know whether College Park or Cornell would be a better choice in that respect but before ranking or any of that you need to consider whether you can even finish.
posted by schroedinger at 8:25 PM on March 26, 2012 [4 favorites]

I grew up in Ithaca, and it's more than a four hour drive from New York City. Five and a half, more like. (Maybe some of that was my parents being the types to follow the speed limit, but still.)

I'd still recommend Ithaca, though. Because you're young, because you will change a lot over the next few years and your boyfriend will change in different ways. Because Cornell really is top-notch. And, hey, because Ithaca rocks.

However, two notes of caution: if you've only ever lived in urban areas, Ithaca may seem very small and very isolated. Some people can't take that very well.

Also, some in your program may view your interest in the hospitality program as evidence of lack of seriousness on your part towards the engineering. It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine, that the sciences tend to select for only single-minded people, and many women (or men) who have more varied interests and value more aspects of their life, and they get dismissed as a result. You may not be able to peruse something so unrelated to engineering as hpspitality so publicly, and using so much of your time, and continue to be successful in your PhD program. (I'd still like to see you do it, change will only come through positive examples, but you should at least be aware of the risks.)
posted by wyzewoman at 8:31 PM on March 26, 2012 [2 favorites]

I can't help you with your decision between schools (I would agree with the other suggestions that you consider the two schools on their own merits outside of the rest of your life)... but I wanted to pipe up about the Ithaca location specifically because, understandably, you don't seem to know too much about it.

First, my SO and I were split between Syracuse and NYC during my PhD. The LDR sucked but it was definitely a doable commute at least once a month for an extended weekend. YMMV with regards to your schedules. Ithaca is a shorter drive but you won't have the advantage of the train and airport that are local to Syracuse.

Syracuse is not the most promising job market in the world, but there is stuff going on there and it is a wicked cheap place to live. I would encourage your significant other to look into job ops there and in Rochester and Binghamton as already mentioned (and keep in mind the lower cost of living when considering salaries). All of those cities are reasonable commutes from Ithaca (well, I don't know about Binghamton...). The commutes in the upstate area are nothing like the same distances near NYC - traffic is laughable compared to there. THe snow will muck things up on occasion, but there's always something.

Ithaca, for its size and in-the-middle-of-nowhereness, is relatively happening. I worked there for about 6 mos. Part of that time, I commuted from Syracuse. It's a pretty drive... and the other part, we lived there and loved it. I am still sad that there weren't more job prospects for me (I am not in either of your fields, and actually there were plenty of postdocs that I just couldn't afford to take).

Anyway, don't give up on Ithaca or the prospect that you can be in the area there together too easily....
posted by Tandem Affinity at 8:31 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]

I'm a graduate student in an engineering-adjacent field at Cornell, and the conventional wisdom around my department is that Ithaca is where long-distance relationships go to die. YMMV.
posted by zeptoweasel at 8:54 PM on March 26, 2012

2. It really is true that you have to minor in an unrelated field (most people do it in CS or Math though), and that person is a 3rd person on your committee. I like culinary arts/ECE equally, and they are both passions of mine.

Unless I don't understand engineering and the humanities are different, that unrelated field is usually still related to the work you actually plan to do. Having someone in a field irrelevant to your work on your committee doesn't make any sense at all, and outside field requirements are not there solely so you can broaden your horizons. I wouldn't count being able to do this as a reason to go to Cornell. I think you'll be disappointed.
posted by liketitanic at 8:55 PM on March 26, 2012 [2 favorites]

Do not base any decisions around your boyfriend. Go to the school that you feel will be the better fit for you. If you and your SO can't make the LDR work, then your relationship wasn't that strong anyway, and it's better to find out sooner than later.
posted by Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth at 8:55 PM on March 26, 2012

If you are starting the program at Cornell in a year, you should talk to your advisor about whether there will be options to fulfill part of the program in NYC. The Cornell-NYC campus officially launches in the Fall of 2012, probably in temporary space (not on Roosevelt Island). So you may be able to work with an NYC-based advisor, or do semesters in each place, or do a year or two in Ithaca and then relocate to NYC. Ask about these options.
The focus is on engineering and applied sciences. You should talk to your potential advisor(s) or Director of Graduate Studies about whether it will be realistic to spend some years in Ithaca and then move to NYC.
If your partner is in NYC, a few things to keep in mind. 1. It is a four hour drive if you avoid NYC rush hour. 2. There are a ton of faculty and grad students with this commuter relationship and it is very easy to share rides on any weekend. 3. You can take the speedy Cornell executive bus (pricy but fast and comfortable).
posted by cushie at 9:18 PM on March 26, 2012

and that person is a 3rd person on your committee

As a PhD student, you might want to check into all of this. First, you won't have time to take on a minor in something unrelated to your field of study. And second, if that person is on your committee, that means that you have to do something in your dissertation related to the minor, which sounds pretty difficult, at least to me.

Ask the people you'd be working with at Cornell if this is even possible. I kind of doubt it, and even if it is possible, it seems like a bad idea to me.
posted by k8lin at 9:27 PM on March 26, 2012

Also, don't discount the fact that driving for 4 or 5 and a half hours, each way, every weekend is really going to be feasible. That's 8 to 11 hours of your week, every week, spent driving. Then, when you're together, you're not going to want to work, or will work less than you would be able to if you lived together. Losing 2 to 3 days of work every week, or every other week, as a doctoral student is really going to hamper your progress and is not feasible in the long term.
posted by k8lin at 9:35 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]

When evaluating your options, pay just as much (if not more) attention to your prospective advisors as you do to the school and the area. This will be very different from undergrad. You are not going to a school with a well-defined program where your experience will be approximately the same as everyone else's. Rather, you are starting a job for a single boss for the next five or six years, and that boss can make or break your PhD experience. A school with the world's best reputation won't help you all that much if your advisor is terrible.

Consider also where you actually want to live over the next several years. There is a point where education stops being this temporary thing that you just have to get through to reach "real life," and becomes a part of real life. You'll most likely be closer to thirty than twenty (or even twenty-five) when you are done; these years have tremendous value, and you should not just treat them as stepping stones to a degree. Make sure you spend them in an environment you love.

As for the relationship, I have seen many LDRs die, but I have also seen some survive long distances and limited contact throughout an entire PhD. It's really up to the participants. Know, however, that the resolve to make a four-hour trip is going to disappear quickly and often when you have a conference deadline to meet.
posted by Behemoth at 9:41 PM on March 26, 2012 [4 favorites]

There are two separate things here:
1. Choosing a school
2. Deciding whether or not to pursue an LDR with your boyfriend

You've been given a lot of advice on the first question but I would stress that you probably won't be able to make an informed decision without visiting the College Park school. Do that before you get yourself into too much of a frenzy over this.

As for the LDR: LDRs are completely possible. A 4 hour drive can be small or large depending on your perspective, your needs and your communication styles. You might not be able to see each other every week; is that a deal breaker for you, for him? You would have to give up half a day for the round trip there and back; is that a deal breaker for you, for him? You would have to come up with alternatives to spending time together in person while balancing a rigorous program of study; is that a deal breaker for you, for him?

Those are questions none of us can answer for you. You have to discuss this with your boyfriend. Maybe you can find a compromise as suggested above (where he moves closer to Ithaca and you attend there). Maybe you'll give an LDR a try only to find it isn't working and then compromise. None of us can predict that for you.
posted by buteo at 9:44 PM on March 26, 2012

I got my Ph.D. in physics from UMD. I'm sure I met some of the professors you will be working with. I can say without hesitation it's an awesome school, and you'll get a fantastic education there. Seriously. It's a good place to work, and choosing UMD over Cornell is a sacrifice for your relationship, but not the equivalent of quitting EE. Maryland has additional advantages: Goddard, NIST and the NIH are all nearby, as are all of those senators that need science advice. There are a huge number of opportunities in the DC metro area for future jobs.

To be fair: I thought College Park was a pretty lame college town, coming from Austin (although DC is awesome, you may not make it down there too much), and my relationship recently survived a 3 year long distance relationship while doing my postdoc in Boston. So... you can still survive a LDR in Ithica and could enjoy life there more (I have no evidence on the latter).

But don't nix Maryland over Cornell on quality is all I'm saying. It's a good school!
posted by bessel functions seem unnecessarily complicated at 9:57 PM on March 26, 2012

Just wanted to second that College Park is a "lame college town". It's basically tens of thousands of college students, surrounded by a bunch of strip malls and restaurants and bars, and nothing much else. I went there for a single semester as an undergrad, HAY-TEDDD it and couldn't leave fast enough. The people I met there were uniformly not my type of people, with such diverse and intriguing interests as shopping and partying and watching tv, and I felt alienated. You'd think in a community of 30,000 students (or whatever) one could find all types of people to connect with, but I just felt lost in a sea of convention. Maybe it's different now (I went in the early 90's), maybe grad students are a little more soul-ful, but somehow I doubt it. If you haven't actually physically been there, I would suggest a visit you can see the area and meet the (pod) people.
posted by parrot_person at 10:19 PM on March 26, 2012

College park is a lame college town with a nice university. Folk are nice on campus, but if your sanity needs a good walk home every afternoon, passing by a coffee shop and decent food market, you're not going to find it: Learn to love your car.

Do you think the 4 hour drive 3-4 times a month is doable?
Him twice a month and you twice a month? That sounds doable.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:32 AM on March 27, 2012

Anecdata: I have friends who've been in an Ithaca-NYC relationship for the past 3-6 years. Neither has a car. They rely on Craigslist rideshares and buses. I've also seen at least two Ithaca-Maryland LDRs survive several years of grad school.
posted by knile at 4:46 AM on March 27, 2012

Just a thought- Cornell is a big place and hires all kinds of staff to work in areas your boyfriend may find interesting and relevant to his interests. You might want to check out this site to get a sense of what the options could look like.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 5:54 AM on March 27, 2012 [3 favorites]

Just graduated from Cornell. Would your boyfriend be able to find a job in a somewhat nearby city? Rochester and Syracuse aren't terribly far away, and will probably have more options than Ithaca. Also, I spent the last two years of my education apart from my SO (now my wife), and it sucked, but it was doable what with Skype, summer/winters/other breaks, etc. Will you or he have a car? That will a) make a difference if he moves with you upstate and needs to commute to another city; b) make a difference if he doesn't move with you so you can visit each other (my wife wasn't a big fan of the bus, and you guys could meet halfway sometimes).
posted by taltalim at 9:15 AM on March 27, 2012

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