What's going on with my daughter?
March 15, 2012 7:16 AM Subscribe
What's going on with my daughter? Maturity issues, impulse control, oral fixation, oh my!
My daughter is 7 and in first grade. She's extremely bright and all of that, but has some issues that are concerning.
First, she has what I consider to be an oral fixation. She constantly has something in her mouth, usually her fingers or her hair, though it'll be a pencil/marker if she's using one at the time. I don't think she's conscious of it at all. If we tell her to stop, she'll stop, but then will start again a few seconds later.
Second, (this one may be developmentally okay, but I'm including it anyway) she takes her food apart. Sandwiches, quesadillas, donuts, etc. She picks them apart with her fingers.
Third, as a combination of the above (I believe), she is an extremely messy eater. More so than her 4-year-old brother. Food on her face, food on the floor, the whole nine yards. I would think that she'd get laughed at at school because of it, but apparently not.
Fourth, and this one is a bit harder to put my finger on, she is immature. She just doesn't seem to have matured at all in the last couple of years. She's the same as she was in kindergarten, for sure. She's learning, her intelligence is growing, all of that is improving, it's just her maturity level that's stagnant.
Going along with this, she has virtually no impulse control. Much less than her peers. For example, her teacher has expressed frustration with her blurting out answers without raising her hand, and this is as a first-grader who should be used to this by now. At home, I tell her the same rules over and over and she just either doesn't remember or can't stop herself from breaking them. She talks a lot about not being able to stop herself from making bad choices, and I don't know how to help her.
Whew. So, am I right that this is not normal 7-year-old behavior? Or am I overreacting? I do plan on contacting her school counselor and probably copying/pasting this post as an email to her, but I'd like your opinions as well.
My daughter is 7 and in first grade. She's extremely bright and all of that, but has some issues that are concerning.
First, she has what I consider to be an oral fixation. She constantly has something in her mouth, usually her fingers or her hair, though it'll be a pencil/marker if she's using one at the time. I don't think she's conscious of it at all. If we tell her to stop, she'll stop, but then will start again a few seconds later.
Second, (this one may be developmentally okay, but I'm including it anyway) she takes her food apart. Sandwiches, quesadillas, donuts, etc. She picks them apart with her fingers.
Third, as a combination of the above (I believe), she is an extremely messy eater. More so than her 4-year-old brother. Food on her face, food on the floor, the whole nine yards. I would think that she'd get laughed at at school because of it, but apparently not.
Fourth, and this one is a bit harder to put my finger on, she is immature. She just doesn't seem to have matured at all in the last couple of years. She's the same as she was in kindergarten, for sure. She's learning, her intelligence is growing, all of that is improving, it's just her maturity level that's stagnant.
Going along with this, she has virtually no impulse control. Much less than her peers. For example, her teacher has expressed frustration with her blurting out answers without raising her hand, and this is as a first-grader who should be used to this by now. At home, I tell her the same rules over and over and she just either doesn't remember or can't stop herself from breaking them. She talks a lot about not being able to stop herself from making bad choices, and I don't know how to help her.
Whew. So, am I right that this is not normal 7-year-old behavior? Or am I overreacting? I do plan on contacting her school counselor and probably copying/pasting this post as an email to her, but I'd like your opinions as well.
Get her checked for ADHD?
posted by milk white peacock at 7:22 AM on March 15, 2012 [8 favorites]
posted by milk white peacock at 7:22 AM on March 15, 2012 [8 favorites]
My son was similar in 1st grade. In 3rd grade he was diagnosed with tourettes (the initial impact of that diagnosis is FAR scarier than the reality of it). Long story short, we severely altered his diet and his tics are gone but thats a story for another time.
It's quite possible that this is simply an issue of development and nothing serious at all. What does the pedi think? It kind of seems like the multiple points you make all settle on a lack of maturity. Kids develop and mature at different paces. If it's causing her a problem at school then ADHD may be an issue but don't be too quick to medicate. I know it's frustrating but sometimes these things just take time.
posted by Thrillhouse at 7:25 AM on March 15, 2012
It's quite possible that this is simply an issue of development and nothing serious at all. What does the pedi think? It kind of seems like the multiple points you make all settle on a lack of maturity. Kids develop and mature at different paces. If it's causing her a problem at school then ADHD may be an issue but don't be too quick to medicate. I know it's frustrating but sometimes these things just take time.
posted by Thrillhouse at 7:25 AM on March 15, 2012
Talk to her pediatrician; they deal with this sort of thing regularly and will have first hand knowledge of both your daughter and many other kids her age to compare her to.
posted by TedW at 7:42 AM on March 15, 2012 [11 favorites]
posted by TedW at 7:42 AM on March 15, 2012 [11 favorites]
If it is impacting her school, then check out ADHD. My older son had/has it, and it took 2 years of fighting with the school to finally get a 504 put in place that forced his teachers to provide specific behavior modifications in place (and my wife is a teacher and knew the ropes, and they still fought with us.. *sigh*)
Anyway, I fought against meds for him, as well, but at my wife's and doctor's insistance he ended up taking focalin for a couple years (after we tried non-med behavior mod for a few months without consistent success), and greatly improved and by 5 th grade decided by himself that he could manage without the meds, and is now a happy 8th grader going into a very competitive public high school.
I still don't like all the rush to diagnose every child with ADHD, etc, but really, even in mild cases like my son, it does help them get over that hump where they seem very immature and distracted. For years, the school, even with the doctor's diagnosis, fought us saying 'oh, he'll grow out of it.. he's just immature developmentally.'
posted by rich at 8:00 AM on March 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
Anyway, I fought against meds for him, as well, but at my wife's and doctor's insistance he ended up taking focalin for a couple years (after we tried non-med behavior mod for a few months without consistent success), and greatly improved and by 5 th grade decided by himself that he could manage without the meds, and is now a happy 8th grader going into a very competitive public high school.
I still don't like all the rush to diagnose every child with ADHD, etc, but really, even in mild cases like my son, it does help them get over that hump where they seem very immature and distracted. For years, the school, even with the doctor's diagnosis, fought us saying 'oh, he'll grow out of it.. he's just immature developmentally.'
posted by rich at 8:00 AM on March 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: We actually just switched peds, so the new one doesn't have firsthand knowledge, but I suppose I could bring it up anyway.
I've thought of ADHD with her before, but have discounted it because she can sit and read for literally 2 hours. And my understanding is that no one will diagnose a kid who can do that.
posted by altopower at 8:01 AM on March 15, 2012
I've thought of ADHD with her before, but have discounted it because she can sit and read for literally 2 hours. And my understanding is that no one will diagnose a kid who can do that.
posted by altopower at 8:01 AM on March 15, 2012
Ability to hyperfocus on select activities is part of the ADHD package. Best to ask a professional.
posted by willpie at 8:05 AM on March 15, 2012 [13 favorites]
posted by willpie at 8:05 AM on March 15, 2012 [13 favorites]
Yep, this sounds like me when I was a kid, and I have ADHD. I wouldn't necessarily rush to medicate, but definitely talk to a doctor with experience treating it.
posted by empath at 8:13 AM on March 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by empath at 8:13 AM on March 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
I've thought of ADHD with her before, but have discounted it because she can sit and read for literally 2 hours.
Oh, I did this also. The thing is, I was never reading what I was supposed to. I would sit in class and just read the dictionary instead of paying attention, and so on.
posted by empath at 8:14 AM on March 15, 2012 [6 favorites]
Oh, I did this also. The thing is, I was never reading what I was supposed to. I would sit in class and just read the dictionary instead of paying attention, and so on.
posted by empath at 8:14 AM on March 15, 2012 [6 favorites]
Ability to hyperfocus on select activities is part of the ADHD package. Best to ask a professional.
I second that. I was not diagnosed until my 20's because I assumed my tendency to spend hours at a time reading relatively difficult novels was evidence I wasn't an ADHD sufferer instead of actually being a symptom.
posted by ndfine at 8:17 AM on March 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
I second that. I was not diagnosed until my 20's because I assumed my tendency to spend hours at a time reading relatively difficult novels was evidence I wasn't an ADHD sufferer instead of actually being a symptom.
posted by ndfine at 8:17 AM on March 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Oh, I did this also. The thing is, I was never reading what I was supposed to. I would sit in class and just read the dictionary instead of paying attention, and so on.
Well, she's not doing that. :) I'm talking about sitting at home and reading books. She's a voracious reader, which of course we encourage.
As far as we can tell, she does pay attention in school.
How would ADHD explain the issues with maturity level? I don't like the rush to diagnose it either, and I'm not sure she really fits the profile.
posted by altopower at 8:19 AM on March 15, 2012
Well, she's not doing that. :) I'm talking about sitting at home and reading books. She's a voracious reader, which of course we encourage.
As far as we can tell, she does pay attention in school.
How would ADHD explain the issues with maturity level? I don't like the rush to diagnose it either, and I'm not sure she really fits the profile.
posted by altopower at 8:19 AM on March 15, 2012
Given your level of concern with her development, why not take her to a child psychologist? If nothing else, the psychologist can reassure you that some of this is perfectly normal; that would also be a good person to diagnose anything that may need diagnosing.
posted by shamash at 8:22 AM on March 15, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by shamash at 8:22 AM on March 15, 2012 [3 favorites]
ADHD is everyone's favorite boutique diagnosis -- but remember, these are people reading a couple of lines on Ask MeFi and trying to offer a psychological label. Go see a doctor.
posted by ellF at 8:24 AM on March 15, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by ellF at 8:24 AM on March 15, 2012 [5 favorites]
I would say completely normal. Maybe ADD. Maybe just stressed a bit. She is 7.
As a kid I always had my hair in my mouth. I sucked on things and I chewed paper. I think I was stressed out. Since I was chewing my hair, at age 7 or 8, my mother cut it off into a Dorothy Hamill bob. As an adult I have been diagnosed as mild to moderate ADD. The psychiatrist was hesitant to diagnose me because I did well in school. How are things at home? Are you relaxed? Are you getting along with your spouse/partner? Is there a friendly, relaxed vibe in the household, or is there stress?
Second, (this one may be developmentally okay, but I'm including it anyway) she takes her food apart. Sandwiches, quesadillas, donuts, etc. She picks them apart with her fingers.
This is so familiar to me. You are describing my kid. My 11-year-old boy picks his food apart and has for quite a long time. He mangles his food. He cannot eat without picking, regardless of the type of food. It's normal to pull an Oreo cookie apart but he will touch his spaghetti with his fingers and will tear apart his taco shell with the filling inside. He will even touch his milk or Coke with his fingers. It's maddening. He makes a huge mess and always has food on his clothing, face, even arms at times. We have reminded him, pleaded with him, to be less messy and not treat every food as a finger food. We have nagged and insisted. Lately, we have been more relaxed about it and don't fixate on it any longer.
My younger kid does not have these problems and is a very neat eater. My kid with the disgusting eating habits is more spacey and had a phase where he used baby talk. This kid got a perfect score on his state standardized test that is administered in public schools. He is quite capable and does well academically but doesn't always catch on right away. With some things he has to be reminded several times. I think he is more like me: spacey, a daydreamer, but quite capable. I hesitate to label him as spacey because I think he is growing out of it and is on the ball with most things. The food thing? Maybe not so normal but what are you going to do? I figure he will be shamed into having better table manners by his peers when he is a bit older. All I can do now is model good behavior and be accepting and relaxed as possible. We still correct him at the table when he is being especially sloppy and remind him when we are going to be in public or dining with family or friends. More than once we have taken the food item away after a warning. He is gradually getting better.
This same kid tended to use more baby talk and did a lot of things that made me crazy. When I was yelling more and generally unhappy, he exhibited more "annoying" behaviors. Because I was unhappy, his behaviors annoyed me more. Because he is the oldest and reminded me of myself, I was probably harder on him and he felt the stress of always being corrected and yelled at. Nowadays, I allow him to be who he is and scold way less frequently. I am not suggesting you are yelling, or coming down hard, just sharing my experience.
If you wanted to you could say both of my kids have ADD-like behaviors. Younger kid can sit for hours and build Lego and play video games but he falls out of his chair sometimes and likes to stand up and flit around when he is watching TV. Older kid needs to be reminded constantly and is not as aware of his surroundings as other kids his age. They both have friends, are well-adjusted, happy, and do well in school, so I'm not so worried.
Suggestions for asking the pediatrician are a good one but to my amateur, parent self, it doesn't sound dire.
posted by Fairchild at 8:28 AM on March 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
As a kid I always had my hair in my mouth. I sucked on things and I chewed paper. I think I was stressed out. Since I was chewing my hair, at age 7 or 8, my mother cut it off into a Dorothy Hamill bob. As an adult I have been diagnosed as mild to moderate ADD. The psychiatrist was hesitant to diagnose me because I did well in school. How are things at home? Are you relaxed? Are you getting along with your spouse/partner? Is there a friendly, relaxed vibe in the household, or is there stress?
Second, (this one may be developmentally okay, but I'm including it anyway) she takes her food apart. Sandwiches, quesadillas, donuts, etc. She picks them apart with her fingers.
This is so familiar to me. You are describing my kid. My 11-year-old boy picks his food apart and has for quite a long time. He mangles his food. He cannot eat without picking, regardless of the type of food. It's normal to pull an Oreo cookie apart but he will touch his spaghetti with his fingers and will tear apart his taco shell with the filling inside. He will even touch his milk or Coke with his fingers. It's maddening. He makes a huge mess and always has food on his clothing, face, even arms at times. We have reminded him, pleaded with him, to be less messy and not treat every food as a finger food. We have nagged and insisted. Lately, we have been more relaxed about it and don't fixate on it any longer.
My younger kid does not have these problems and is a very neat eater. My kid with the disgusting eating habits is more spacey and had a phase where he used baby talk. This kid got a perfect score on his state standardized test that is administered in public schools. He is quite capable and does well academically but doesn't always catch on right away. With some things he has to be reminded several times. I think he is more like me: spacey, a daydreamer, but quite capable. I hesitate to label him as spacey because I think he is growing out of it and is on the ball with most things. The food thing? Maybe not so normal but what are you going to do? I figure he will be shamed into having better table manners by his peers when he is a bit older. All I can do now is model good behavior and be accepting and relaxed as possible. We still correct him at the table when he is being especially sloppy and remind him when we are going to be in public or dining with family or friends. More than once we have taken the food item away after a warning. He is gradually getting better.
This same kid tended to use more baby talk and did a lot of things that made me crazy. When I was yelling more and generally unhappy, he exhibited more "annoying" behaviors. Because I was unhappy, his behaviors annoyed me more. Because he is the oldest and reminded me of myself, I was probably harder on him and he felt the stress of always being corrected and yelled at. Nowadays, I allow him to be who he is and scold way less frequently. I am not suggesting you are yelling, or coming down hard, just sharing my experience.
If you wanted to you could say both of my kids have ADD-like behaviors. Younger kid can sit for hours and build Lego and play video games but he falls out of his chair sometimes and likes to stand up and flit around when he is watching TV. Older kid needs to be reminded constantly and is not as aware of his surroundings as other kids his age. They both have friends, are well-adjusted, happy, and do well in school, so I'm not so worried.
Suggestions for asking the pediatrician are a good one but to my amateur, parent self, it doesn't sound dire.
posted by Fairchild at 8:28 AM on March 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
The thing is, not all seven-year-olds develop at the same rate. This could very well be normal seven-year-old behavior for her. Then again, there could be some underlying developmental issue going on.
It could be anything, and that's the real issue. I think you're not as concerned with the oral fixation, the food, and the messy eating as you are the immaturity. If your insurance covers it, why not take her to a child psychologist? Better yet, email her school counselor and see what he/she thinks. That person will have a much better idea, thanks mostly just to being around a variety of seven-year-olds for longer than you have, of what to be concerned about. If the counselor agrees that there is something to investigate, go for it. But if the counselor says everything seems to be fine and you still have concerns, by all means take her to see someone.
posted by cooker girl at 8:30 AM on March 15, 2012
It could be anything, and that's the real issue. I think you're not as concerned with the oral fixation, the food, and the messy eating as you are the immaturity. If your insurance covers it, why not take her to a child psychologist? Better yet, email her school counselor and see what he/she thinks. That person will have a much better idea, thanks mostly just to being around a variety of seven-year-olds for longer than you have, of what to be concerned about. If the counselor agrees that there is something to investigate, go for it. But if the counselor says everything seems to be fine and you still have concerns, by all means take her to see someone.
posted by cooker girl at 8:30 AM on March 15, 2012
Best answer: I was a lot like this at that age. I was just immature and naturally clumsy (the messiness).
I have no idea why I liked taking apart my food so much, but I kept it up for years. I loved picking little bits of bread and squishing them into balls or cubes. I'm still not a big sandwich person; I just don't really like food all stacked and squished together that way. I didn't like casserole-type things until I was in college. I just liked flavors more separate; I have a fairly sensitive palate and I sometimes had a hard time with intense or mixed-up flavors until my taste buds started to mature (and probably dull a bit) with age.
(Also -- does she get a lot of fine-motor tasks to do with her hands? One thing that helped me stop futzing at things like food was to take up embroidery where I could engage in lots of fine-motor activity OTHER than writing or coloring, which was most of what kids that age did for fine-motor back then.)
I was just reading the other day that a baby's mouth is much, much more sensitive (tactile-wise) than its hands ... and the hands/fingers don't catch up until the child is five or so. It's hard to imagine as adults because our fingers are so sensitive compared to our mouths, but for children, the mouth is the most sensitive touch organ for five years and then falls off slowly. It's pretty normal for kids to stick things in their mouths. I'd hesitate to call it an "oral fixation." I was chewing on my thumb as I read this. :)
"For example, her teacher has expressed frustration with her blurting out answers without raising her hand, and this is as a first-grader who should be used to this by now."
This is completely normal, especially for bright kids, who may remain blurters through junior high. While MANY first-grade girls can sit quietly and raise their hands, it's much more difficult for boys, and a fair number of first-grade girls aren't mature enough yet to manage it either. Part of the problem here isn't your daughter; it's the developmentally-inappropriate expectations of schools these days. (However, that makes it your daughter's problem, as she is expected to conform.)
"At home, I tell her the same rules over and over and she just either doesn't remember or can't stop herself from breaking them."
We can't tell you without knowing what the rules are and how they're phrased and how you're teaching them. Are you sure they're age appropriate? Are you sure they're being taught in the right way for her maturity level and learning style? Are the rules consistent or chaotic?
I mean, talk to her doctor and school counselor in case it does point to something problematic, but all of this could absolutely be normal developmentally. I eventually became a socially-acceptable eater, though I think I still drop more crumbs than most people, but hey, brooms; and I mostly quit blurting things out. I was on the slower end in terms of social-emotional development problem until high school. It wasn't great, but eventually it evens out.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:42 AM on March 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
I have no idea why I liked taking apart my food so much, but I kept it up for years. I loved picking little bits of bread and squishing them into balls or cubes. I'm still not a big sandwich person; I just don't really like food all stacked and squished together that way. I didn't like casserole-type things until I was in college. I just liked flavors more separate; I have a fairly sensitive palate and I sometimes had a hard time with intense or mixed-up flavors until my taste buds started to mature (and probably dull a bit) with age.
(Also -- does she get a lot of fine-motor tasks to do with her hands? One thing that helped me stop futzing at things like food was to take up embroidery where I could engage in lots of fine-motor activity OTHER than writing or coloring, which was most of what kids that age did for fine-motor back then.)
I was just reading the other day that a baby's mouth is much, much more sensitive (tactile-wise) than its hands ... and the hands/fingers don't catch up until the child is five or so. It's hard to imagine as adults because our fingers are so sensitive compared to our mouths, but for children, the mouth is the most sensitive touch organ for five years and then falls off slowly. It's pretty normal for kids to stick things in their mouths. I'd hesitate to call it an "oral fixation." I was chewing on my thumb as I read this. :)
"For example, her teacher has expressed frustration with her blurting out answers without raising her hand, and this is as a first-grader who should be used to this by now."
This is completely normal, especially for bright kids, who may remain blurters through junior high. While MANY first-grade girls can sit quietly and raise their hands, it's much more difficult for boys, and a fair number of first-grade girls aren't mature enough yet to manage it either. Part of the problem here isn't your daughter; it's the developmentally-inappropriate expectations of schools these days. (However, that makes it your daughter's problem, as she is expected to conform.)
"At home, I tell her the same rules over and over and she just either doesn't remember or can't stop herself from breaking them."
We can't tell you without knowing what the rules are and how they're phrased and how you're teaching them. Are you sure they're age appropriate? Are you sure they're being taught in the right way for her maturity level and learning style? Are the rules consistent or chaotic?
I mean, talk to her doctor and school counselor in case it does point to something problematic, but all of this could absolutely be normal developmentally. I eventually became a socially-acceptable eater, though I think I still drop more crumbs than most people, but hey, brooms; and I mostly quit blurting things out. I was on the slower end in terms of social-emotional development problem until high school. It wasn't great, but eventually it evens out.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:42 AM on March 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
Many of these traits are things that could be worked on with a physical / occupational therapist, including impulsiveness. Look for one who does Floortime -- it's not just for kids with autism.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:51 AM on March 15, 2012
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:51 AM on March 15, 2012
My husband's adult cousin who has ADHD still picks her food apart. Also she sometimes even tears the plate to pieces, if it's paper. (Since she's a responsible adult who has had years of practice coping with her impulses she only does this in contexts where it won't really bother people, though.)
If I were in your shoes I'd take her to a child psychologist who specializes in attention disorders, just to get it ruled out.
Also, is she getting enough exercise and time to play during the school day? My seven-year-old son has attention issues (not due to ADHD though -- he has sensory processing disorder) and I've noticed that he is able to follow directions and wait for his turn, etc., MUCH better when he has had plenty of time to play outside.
My kid is brilliant and capable of doing quite well in school when he's on the ball, but it's very, very hard for him to sit still all day in a noisy distracting classroom, and just trying to concentrate all day on sitting still and keeping quiet and walking in line etc. in a restrictive environment is very draining for him. Regular breaks to stretch and move really help him, as do hours (yes, HOURS, plural) of active play, outside when possible, during non-school time several times a week. (In fact I think regular exercise and play time helps all children concentrate, not just kids with special needs. Human children aren't actually designed to sit in desks all day.)
posted by BlueJae at 8:52 AM on March 15, 2012
If I were in your shoes I'd take her to a child psychologist who specializes in attention disorders, just to get it ruled out.
Also, is she getting enough exercise and time to play during the school day? My seven-year-old son has attention issues (not due to ADHD though -- he has sensory processing disorder) and I've noticed that he is able to follow directions and wait for his turn, etc., MUCH better when he has had plenty of time to play outside.
My kid is brilliant and capable of doing quite well in school when he's on the ball, but it's very, very hard for him to sit still all day in a noisy distracting classroom, and just trying to concentrate all day on sitting still and keeping quiet and walking in line etc. in a restrictive environment is very draining for him. Regular breaks to stretch and move really help him, as do hours (yes, HOURS, plural) of active play, outside when possible, during non-school time several times a week. (In fact I think regular exercise and play time helps all children concentrate, not just kids with special needs. Human children aren't actually designed to sit in desks all day.)
posted by BlueJae at 8:52 AM on March 15, 2012
How much exercise does she get? As a grown-ass woman, I am chewing ferociously on my finger at work after being cooped up at work for four days. She may be a healthy, entirely normal kid who picks apart her food because she's curious and a picky eater, and the rest is all a symptom on what they call zoomies in puppies. It's sort of an impulse control thing, but it is mitigated by using all that energy.
Your ped may not have a baseline for her, but probably has a good sense of what's technically normal vs. what needs a closer look.
Also, maybe your four-year old is maturing quickly, and she suffers in contrast.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 8:57 AM on March 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
Your ped may not have a baseline for her, but probably has a good sense of what's technically normal vs. what needs a closer look.
Also, maybe your four-year old is maturing quickly, and she suffers in contrast.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 8:57 AM on March 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Ability to hyper focus on select activities is part of the ADHD package. Best to ask a professional.
YES!
Your description of your daughter is pretty much a word for word description of me as a child and as an adult. I was diagnosed with ADHA at 11. I'm in my mid-twenties now and I'm still medicated and go to therapy.
ADHD is everyone's favorite boutique diagnosis -- but remember, these are people reading a couple of lines on Ask MeFi and trying to offer a psychological label. Go see a doctor.
ADHD might be a favorite boutique diagnosis in some circles, and you should definitely see a doctor if your daughter’s behavior is of real concern to you, but… ADHD is real - and once I started treatment (meds and therapy) my life got so much better. I'm no position to tell you if your daughter is normal or abnormal but I would investigate her issues to the fullest.
How would ADHD explain the issues with maturity level?
Immaturity is pretty strongly correlated with ADHD. Not saying this explains your daughter’s immaturity, she could just be a late bloomer. But if this were my kid I would take her a child psychologist who is experienced with attention deficit disorders.
posted by OsoMeaty at 8:58 AM on March 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
YES!
Your description of your daughter is pretty much a word for word description of me as a child and as an adult. I was diagnosed with ADHA at 11. I'm in my mid-twenties now and I'm still medicated and go to therapy.
ADHD is everyone's favorite boutique diagnosis -- but remember, these are people reading a couple of lines on Ask MeFi and trying to offer a psychological label. Go see a doctor.
ADHD might be a favorite boutique diagnosis in some circles, and you should definitely see a doctor if your daughter’s behavior is of real concern to you, but… ADHD is real - and once I started treatment (meds and therapy) my life got so much better. I'm no position to tell you if your daughter is normal or abnormal but I would investigate her issues to the fullest.
How would ADHD explain the issues with maturity level?
Immaturity is pretty strongly correlated with ADHD. Not saying this explains your daughter’s immaturity, she could just be a late bloomer. But if this were my kid I would take her a child psychologist who is experienced with attention deficit disorders.
posted by OsoMeaty at 8:58 AM on March 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I was also a lot like this at her age, right down to the hyperfocused reading. I have been diagnosed as an adult with ADD (ADHD inattentive type -- without the hyperactivity).
Definitely seconding the "bright kids" explanation for blurting, etc. -- which often goes along with ADHD. I mean, if they're asking what the answer is, and you know it, why oh why oh WHY would they wait for someone else to answer when you're RIGHT THERE??? When I was in first grade, my teachers had to paperclip my pages together to stop me from reading ahead in the book (why this would be a bad thing, I don't know).
This extends to things like homework, too, if she has issues with that. Why would you do homework when it's so obvious that you already know how to do that kind of stuff? DUH.
On a separate tangent, the way Ritalin works is basically to speed everything up so your already-speeding brain is so wound up that it's forced to choose one thing over another. That's why being busy ALL THE TIME is so great for ADD. I work best when I have a consistently high level of stuff going on. Take that away, and I can't even remember things I did five minutes ago.
So perhaps picking apart a quesadilla is like that: it's something to do! I still pull labels off of beer bottles almost without thinking about it. Filling up your time, even with stupid stuff like twirling your hair or picking food apart or tapping your legs (oh my god does my mother not understand that) are all part of keeping that hamster wheel turning in your brain. Because if YOU keep the hamster wheel turning, you're in control; you don't let your mind run away with itself.
Now, I of course don't know whether your kid has ADD or not. Do take her in to get her checked out. But please, whatever you do, do NOT punish her by keeping her in a low-level group because she can't do her homework, etc. Keep her challenged and engaged. Give her the ability to do weird self-stimming stuff when it doesn't matter so much, and encourage her to be more appropriate when she needs to.
Perhaps you can replace some of the less socially acceptable behaviors with others. I remember reading about a developmentally disabled teenager who ground her teeth all the time. Her peers convinced her mom to let her chew gum, which not only looked cool but prevented the unpleasant noises and reduced wear and tear on her teeth.
Be willing to think outside of the box like that.
posted by Madamina at 9:00 AM on March 15, 2012 [3 favorites]
Definitely seconding the "bright kids" explanation for blurting, etc. -- which often goes along with ADHD. I mean, if they're asking what the answer is, and you know it, why oh why oh WHY would they wait for someone else to answer when you're RIGHT THERE??? When I was in first grade, my teachers had to paperclip my pages together to stop me from reading ahead in the book (why this would be a bad thing, I don't know).
This extends to things like homework, too, if she has issues with that. Why would you do homework when it's so obvious that you already know how to do that kind of stuff? DUH.
On a separate tangent, the way Ritalin works is basically to speed everything up so your already-speeding brain is so wound up that it's forced to choose one thing over another. That's why being busy ALL THE TIME is so great for ADD. I work best when I have a consistently high level of stuff going on. Take that away, and I can't even remember things I did five minutes ago.
So perhaps picking apart a quesadilla is like that: it's something to do! I still pull labels off of beer bottles almost without thinking about it. Filling up your time, even with stupid stuff like twirling your hair or picking food apart or tapping your legs (oh my god does my mother not understand that) are all part of keeping that hamster wheel turning in your brain. Because if YOU keep the hamster wheel turning, you're in control; you don't let your mind run away with itself.
Now, I of course don't know whether your kid has ADD or not. Do take her in to get her checked out. But please, whatever you do, do NOT punish her by keeping her in a low-level group because she can't do her homework, etc. Keep her challenged and engaged. Give her the ability to do weird self-stimming stuff when it doesn't matter so much, and encourage her to be more appropriate when she needs to.
Perhaps you can replace some of the less socially acceptable behaviors with others. I remember reading about a developmentally disabled teenager who ground her teeth all the time. Her peers convinced her mom to let her chew gum, which not only looked cool but prevented the unpleasant noises and reduced wear and tear on her teeth.
Be willing to think outside of the box like that.
posted by Madamina at 9:00 AM on March 15, 2012 [3 favorites]
Many of these traits are things that could be worked on with a physical / occupational therapist, including impulsiveness.
Yes! PT/OT helped me tremendously.
posted by OsoMeaty at 9:00 AM on March 15, 2012
Yes! PT/OT helped me tremendously.
posted by OsoMeaty at 9:00 AM on March 15, 2012
Best answer: There is a really good book called The Out of Sync Child by Carol Stock Kranowitz that talks about sensory processing variations in kids.
I think you'll find it helpful. My strong belief is that the neurological variation that many kids have--mostly but not all girls--that includes hyperlexia, over absorption in imaginary worlds, sensory defensiveness, poor impulse and mood control, and issues with balance and fine motor skills, will someday be identified as A Thing like Asperger's Syndrome.
One of my honorary god daughters is 8 now and has been experiencing the ups and downs of this really strongly. Does your daughter get a weird dreamy look when you are asking her to do some kind of boring task? That's one of the most infuriating things about my young friend A. Even to me, and I have the same kind of non-standard brain!
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:04 AM on March 15, 2012 [10 favorites]
I think you'll find it helpful. My strong belief is that the neurological variation that many kids have--mostly but not all girls--that includes hyperlexia, over absorption in imaginary worlds, sensory defensiveness, poor impulse and mood control, and issues with balance and fine motor skills, will someday be identified as A Thing like Asperger's Syndrome.
One of my honorary god daughters is 8 now and has been experiencing the ups and downs of this really strongly. Does your daughter get a weird dreamy look when you are asking her to do some kind of boring task? That's one of the most infuriating things about my young friend A. Even to me, and I have the same kind of non-standard brain!
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:04 AM on March 15, 2012 [10 favorites]
All my kids are readers. My oldest, who was diagnosed with ADHD can sit and read for hours or do a task without stopping. He read an entire Harry Potter book in less than a week when he was in 3rd grade.
But - he would absentmindedly play with pens at his desk, rip paper into tiny little pieces, 'perch' on his seat instead of sitting, stare out the window and not respond to multiple calls of his name until someone nudged him.
I agree not to ruch into an ADHD diagnosis, but you should have her checked out and evaluated, as once you have that, you can create a plan of action. Otherwise you're just going to be grasping at solutions thrown out by all of us well-meaning folks in the Hive, and not get the proper help in school that you legally deserve.
posted by rich at 9:14 AM on March 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
But - he would absentmindedly play with pens at his desk, rip paper into tiny little pieces, 'perch' on his seat instead of sitting, stare out the window and not respond to multiple calls of his name until someone nudged him.
I agree not to ruch into an ADHD diagnosis, but you should have her checked out and evaluated, as once you have that, you can create a plan of action. Otherwise you're just going to be grasping at solutions thrown out by all of us well-meaning folks in the Hive, and not get the proper help in school that you legally deserve.
posted by rich at 9:14 AM on March 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
One more thing: if she does have sensory defensiveness issues--freaking out about an itchy tag in her sweater, or a flickering fluorescent light in a store, or noises that seem totally un-annoying to you--taking those seriously and helping her remediate them will help her keep her cool.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:17 AM on March 15, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:17 AM on March 15, 2012 [4 favorites]
I would like to encourage the suggestion to get tested by a psychologist (not just a pediatrician who will prescribe meds). The school may be able to provide this option, but if not you should be able to find one on your insurance. If there is a University nearby that has a Master's or PhD program in psychology, school psychology, or psych testing you may be able to volunteer her for students to get practical experience with (I had to do a battery of tests on 6 kids in one semester for a class).
I say get psych testing not to get a mental illness diagnosis, but because they can test various developmental skills and levels, and give you an idea of whether or not she is behind or ahead of the curve. They can also give you suggestions on how to adjust things based on her developmental level. I remember doing the Woodcock-Johnson test in addition to the basic Weschler IQ test, along with the Test of Visual Motor Skills to do a full assessment on someone. I actually kind of miss doing that!
In any case, an assessment process like that will give you a much bigger picture and give you ideas on how to address the individual issues without necessarily throwing meds at it. It's worth thinking about, at least. I remember that I was intellectually ahead of my peers by a couple of grade levels and I would have a huge issue with blurting out answers because in my mind I was thinking "Come ON!! This is easy...let's get to the good stuff!" I couldn't verbalize that at the time, but looking back I knew that I was impatient with waiting around for other kids to catch up. I see my nephew (who's in 2nd grade but reading on 6th grade level) with the same type of impatient behaviors. I think he just gets bored.
Anyway, those are my two cents!
posted by MultiFaceted at 9:31 AM on March 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
I say get psych testing not to get a mental illness diagnosis, but because they can test various developmental skills and levels, and give you an idea of whether or not she is behind or ahead of the curve. They can also give you suggestions on how to adjust things based on her developmental level. I remember doing the Woodcock-Johnson test in addition to the basic Weschler IQ test, along with the Test of Visual Motor Skills to do a full assessment on someone. I actually kind of miss doing that!
In any case, an assessment process like that will give you a much bigger picture and give you ideas on how to address the individual issues without necessarily throwing meds at it. It's worth thinking about, at least. I remember that I was intellectually ahead of my peers by a couple of grade levels and I would have a huge issue with blurting out answers because in my mind I was thinking "Come ON!! This is easy...let's get to the good stuff!" I couldn't verbalize that at the time, but looking back I knew that I was impatient with waiting around for other kids to catch up. I see my nephew (who's in 2nd grade but reading on 6th grade level) with the same type of impatient behaviors. I think he just gets bored.
Anyway, those are my two cents!
posted by MultiFaceted at 9:31 AM on March 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
(the links in my above answer are just for informational purposes and to give a basic description of the assessment tools...they are not meant as a full endorsement).
posted by MultiFaceted at 9:31 AM on March 15, 2012
posted by MultiFaceted at 9:31 AM on March 15, 2012
Response by poster: I emailed the school counselor almost immediately after posting this, and heard back quickly. She's at a conference, but she's going to call me on Monday to discuss. So yay.
She is not being challenged at school as much as we would like, but that's a whole other story. Sigh. Their version of "challenging" her is Magic Tree House books. At home she's reading novels. She read Charlotte's Web when she was 4 and could summarize it coherently. Like I said, whole other story.
Anyway. As far as replacing inappropriate behaviors with more appropriate, I thought about getting her those chewy tube things, or those chewable necklace things that OTs use, but I'm not sure how well they would go over with her. I guess I'll wait and see what the counselor says.
We do have a large university here, so there's probably plenty of eager grad students at the ready for testing.
My strong belief is that the neurological variation that many kids have--mostly but not all girls--that includes hyperlexia, over absorption in imaginary worlds, sensory defensiveness, poor impulse and mood control, and issues with balance and fine motor skills, will someday be identified as A Thing like Asperger's Syndrome.
Sidhedevil, this really struck me. This fits her almost to a T. Her only sensory defensive thing is loud noises, but it's a strong one.
posted by altopower at 9:50 AM on March 15, 2012
She is not being challenged at school as much as we would like, but that's a whole other story. Sigh. Their version of "challenging" her is Magic Tree House books. At home she's reading novels. She read Charlotte's Web when she was 4 and could summarize it coherently. Like I said, whole other story.
Anyway. As far as replacing inappropriate behaviors with more appropriate, I thought about getting her those chewy tube things, or those chewable necklace things that OTs use, but I'm not sure how well they would go over with her. I guess I'll wait and see what the counselor says.
We do have a large university here, so there's probably plenty of eager grad students at the ready for testing.
My strong belief is that the neurological variation that many kids have--mostly but not all girls--that includes hyperlexia, over absorption in imaginary worlds, sensory defensiveness, poor impulse and mood control, and issues with balance and fine motor skills, will someday be identified as A Thing like Asperger's Syndrome.
Sidhedevil, this really struck me. This fits her almost to a T. Her only sensory defensive thing is loud noises, but it's a strong one.
posted by altopower at 9:50 AM on March 15, 2012
My son (again) had sensory sensitivity as well.. too much noise/activity (say a busy chuck e cheese)/etc just overloaded him.
Yes, when I said to get her evaluated - not the pediatrician.. a psychologist. Find a specialist, as the school/State will need a formal medical diagnosis, not some random grad student evaluation in order for you to get a 504 and intervention program.
posted by rich at 10:05 AM on March 15, 2012
Yes, when I said to get her evaluated - not the pediatrician.. a psychologist. Find a specialist, as the school/State will need a formal medical diagnosis, not some random grad student evaluation in order for you to get a 504 and intervention program.
posted by rich at 10:05 AM on March 15, 2012
Some of this sounds like me as a kid, and I had pretty bad OCD (undiagnosed until college, altho I knew long before that). Picking food apart could be a compulsion. I was immature because I couldn't control my behavior and I think emotional control was beyond me too (anxiety ramping out of control). OCD exists largely in one's own head, so may not be easy to discern just from behaviors. I wish you luck in figuring out what to do to help her best.
posted by agregoli at 10:20 AM on March 15, 2012
posted by agregoli at 10:20 AM on March 15, 2012
The grad school evaluation won't get you services through the public school, but it's a very low cost/free option if the school won't evaluate and the cost of private evaluation is too prohibitive. It's a great way to get an idea of what's going on and maybe where to go next for an official diagnosis, but won't qualify you for anything. I didn't mean for it to sound that way...sorry.
If the school psychologist is willing to follow up, that's great! He/she can point you in the right direction. I've known of some schools who will not provide testing until they decide that the student is too disruptive in the classroom, which means the parents have to explore testing via their insurance.
posted by MultiFaceted at 10:31 AM on March 15, 2012
If the school psychologist is willing to follow up, that's great! He/she can point you in the right direction. I've known of some schools who will not provide testing until they decide that the student is too disruptive in the classroom, which means the parents have to explore testing via their insurance.
posted by MultiFaceted at 10:31 AM on March 15, 2012
I'm a special education teacher, and I gotta tell you, it's really really hard to tell what's going on here. Definitely sensory issues, but there are many underlying causes for those.
I strongly recommend asking the school to have her fully evaluated: psychological, speech, OT and educational screenings. They should be onboard with helping you. If not, memail me and I can tell you how to play nicely but also get what you want.
I'd have her evaluated sooner rather than later, but in my experience, you haven't written anything that jumps out at me as "OMG SCARY!" so you can relax if you're stressing about this.
And keep giving her awesome books to read!
posted by kinetic at 2:41 PM on March 15, 2012
I strongly recommend asking the school to have her fully evaluated: psychological, speech, OT and educational screenings. They should be onboard with helping you. If not, memail me and I can tell you how to play nicely but also get what you want.
I'd have her evaluated sooner rather than later, but in my experience, you haven't written anything that jumps out at me as "OMG SCARY!" so you can relax if you're stressing about this.
And keep giving her awesome books to read!
posted by kinetic at 2:41 PM on March 15, 2012
OP: I've thought of ADHD with her before, but have discounted it because she can sit and read for literally 2 hours. And my understanding is that no one will diagnose a kid who can do that.
Please read this comment I posted a month ago about my experience as a kid with undiagnosed ADHD. As I said there, "I imagine that the fact that I could lose myself in a book for hours made an ADHD diagnosis seem unlikely." Hyperfocus can be a huge red herring in the way of getting an ADHD diagnosis!
Oh, and clumsiness is also a symptom of ADHD that most people don't know about, and that lord knows I have!
posted by lunasol at 5:46 PM on March 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
Please read this comment I posted a month ago about my experience as a kid with undiagnosed ADHD. As I said there, "I imagine that the fact that I could lose myself in a book for hours made an ADHD diagnosis seem unlikely." Hyperfocus can be a huge red herring in the way of getting an ADHD diagnosis!
Oh, and clumsiness is also a symptom of ADHD that most people don't know about, and that lord knows I have!
posted by lunasol at 5:46 PM on March 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Kinetic, I may end up going that way, depending on how Monday's convo with the counselor goes. I hesitate to rock the boat too much though, honestly...I've been kicking their asses all year about gifted ed.
Lunasol, I read your comment...thank you, it gave me a lot to think about.
She and I have had some heart-to-hearts. I am promising myself to cut her some slack. Counselor will call at 11 on Monday.
posted by altopower at 5:08 PM on March 16, 2012
Lunasol, I read your comment...thank you, it gave me a lot to think about.
She and I have had some heart-to-hearts. I am promising myself to cut her some slack. Counselor will call at 11 on Monday.
posted by altopower at 5:08 PM on March 16, 2012
Response by poster: Had a good conversation with the counselor today. Apparently she is displaying weird disruptive behaviors in the classroom like getting up in the middle of class and sticking her finger in her teacher's open toed shoes. This apparently has happened on numerous occasions and is merely one example.
The school OT is going to observe her on Thursday and I'm going to make a doctor appointment for after that point. We'll likely be taking her to a child psych to have her screened as well.
Relatedly, she spoke with the school counselor today, and after school when i picked her up she seemed stressed and kind of upset, but said she "couldn't remember why." The whole can't remember thing is getting more frequent too, and I don't know if it's an excuse to not tell me things or if she honestly just doesn't remember.
posted by altopower at 3:55 PM on March 19, 2012
The school OT is going to observe her on Thursday and I'm going to make a doctor appointment for after that point. We'll likely be taking her to a child psych to have her screened as well.
Relatedly, she spoke with the school counselor today, and after school when i picked her up she seemed stressed and kind of upset, but said she "couldn't remember why." The whole can't remember thing is getting more frequent too, and I don't know if it's an excuse to not tell me things or if she honestly just doesn't remember.
posted by altopower at 3:55 PM on March 19, 2012
Please don't freak out, but there's a lot here that makes me think of kids I know who have autism (including my son). I highly recommend finding someone who can assess her using ADOS, which is the gold standard for autism diagnosis.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:02 PM on March 19, 2012
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:02 PM on March 19, 2012
Response by poster: The OT observed her (extremely briefly, apparently) today and had few things to report. She supposedly is going to observe her more next week. She noted somewhat excessive oral-motor activity, but that was about it. She suggested "clear tubing on her pencil that she could chew on, or strung on a cord around her neck." I think these suggestions are kind of bullshit, personally, as they are based on a bare minimum of observation. So, I'm going to wait and see what she says after further observation as well as watching her at lunchtime.
Doctor appointment is set for Wednesday next week.
Parenthetically, her music program was last night, and holy shit was she fidgety. I mean, yeah, there was a stage full of of first-graders, but I looked around and she was definitely more fidgety than most. My mother even commented, and normally she thinks of her granddaughter as the precious snowflake who can do no wrong. So, sad face.
The corpse in the library, I've spent some time considering what you've written, and I just don't know. I will keep it in my back pocket, though...thank you.
posted by altopower at 2:23 PM on March 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
Doctor appointment is set for Wednesday next week.
Parenthetically, her music program was last night, and holy shit was she fidgety. I mean, yeah, there was a stage full of of first-graders, but I looked around and she was definitely more fidgety than most. My mother even commented, and normally she thinks of her granddaughter as the precious snowflake who can do no wrong. So, sad face.
The corpse in the library, I've spent some time considering what you've written, and I just don't know. I will keep it in my back pocket, though...thank you.
posted by altopower at 2:23 PM on March 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I should clarify: I'm not dismissing the OT's suggestions entirely. I think they're perfectly fine. I just think that she should spend some more time observing my daughter before making recommendations.
Just wanted to make that clear.
posted by altopower at 4:40 PM on March 23, 2012
Just wanted to make that clear.
posted by altopower at 4:40 PM on March 23, 2012
I thought possibly the OT's suggestions were something she wanted in the picture during further observation.
In any case, I'm glad you are getting some help and I hope your daughter is able to flourish.
The school sounds frustrating to me, and I'm not stuck in it all day.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 5:57 PM on March 23, 2012
In any case, I'm glad you are getting some help and I hope your daughter is able to flourish.
The school sounds frustrating to me, and I'm not stuck in it all day.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 5:57 PM on March 23, 2012
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posted by batmonkey at 7:19 AM on March 15, 2012