Getting kid to clean room
February 5, 2012 9:58 AM Subscribe
Can you please help me get my 5.5yo daughter to tidy her room without me loosing my temper and getting mad every time?
She always resists, saying things like "I'm too tired" or "you always make me do everything" and "its too hard". I help her every step of the way, coaching her how to put things away, and where, but things still always fall apart, with her crying, and me mad. (If I didn't help her every step of the way, it wouldn't get done) This is the biggest conflict we currently have.
She always resists, saying things like "I'm too tired" or "you always make me do everything" and "its too hard". I help her every step of the way, coaching her how to put things away, and where, but things still always fall apart, with her crying, and me mad. (If I didn't help her every step of the way, it wouldn't get done) This is the biggest conflict we currently have.
Chore charts. Absolutely chore charts. We're having very good luck with "get your chore chart done every day for a month, and we can do [activity]". It's much better than the knock-down drag-out temper tantrums we were having for a while. (Oh, and making it through the day without a tantrum is one of the things on the chore chart.)
posted by jferg at 10:14 AM on February 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by jferg at 10:14 AM on February 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
If they claim to be too tired, I'd tell them that you will now leave them alone in their room for a nap, but that they are to stay in their room until after they've also tidied up a bit.
This puts the kid in a bit of a conundrum, and he/she may not even wind up taking the nap after all once they realize that it doesn't get them out of anything -- worse, it keeps them inside and dealing with their mess for even longer.
posted by hermitosis at 10:18 AM on February 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
This puts the kid in a bit of a conundrum, and he/she may not even wind up taking the nap after all once they realize that it doesn't get them out of anything -- worse, it keeps them inside and dealing with their mess for even longer.
posted by hermitosis at 10:18 AM on February 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
Parent of 2.5 year old here so I have no clue if this advice is sound.
I think by helping her so much, there is the learned helplessness that being promoted and expressed ("it is too hard" I'm too tired") and she knows she can guilt trip you to get you to help ("you make me do everything"). Make your expectation known that her room must be cleaned, stop helping her with the things she can do, leave her alone to do it and let go of your perfect outcome. FWIW.
posted by murrey at 10:18 AM on February 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
I think by helping her so much, there is the learned helplessness that being promoted and expressed ("it is too hard" I'm too tired") and she knows she can guilt trip you to get you to help ("you make me do everything"). Make your expectation known that her room must be cleaned, stop helping her with the things she can do, leave her alone to do it and let go of your perfect outcome. FWIW.
posted by murrey at 10:18 AM on February 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
Building off what murrey said above - maybe make a list of the things she needs to do when she cleans her room so that she can refer to it. But if she refuses to do it, give her a consequence. No computer for a day. No dessert for two days. No TV for a day. Something like that. (We call that "grounding" at my house - "You're grounded from dessert.")
posted by Addlepated at 10:23 AM on February 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Addlepated at 10:23 AM on February 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Seconding charts. We have used them in many ways for our 7.5 year old (who's high functioning but nevertheless on the autism spectrum). If monthly incentives are too delayed, you can always do weekly, or even smaller more frequent rewards combined with larger less frequent ones. Try not to lose your temper (hard, I know, believe me). She might be looking for the reaction.
posted by mollweide at 10:25 AM on February 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by mollweide at 10:25 AM on February 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Cleaning is stupid and makes no sense and why can't we just eat ice-creams and have fun all the time?? <>
Obviously, reasoning with children about the character building aspects of cleaning your room is pointless and seems utterly alien to kids. Heck, I know lots of adults who don't and can't keep their apartments clean, so I'm actually not sure how much this matters in the grand scheme of things but of course you can't let your kid know that.
Create a system of actions and rewards. Your daughter wants reward x {going to the movies, candy, etc} during the weekend? Well, the scoreboard says she doesn't have the y required stars/kittens because she didn't keep her room clean every day, so things don't look so good... Maybe if she helps clean the living room or take a bath without a fight.
Because you have a transparent system where the rules are clear, you can always refer to it as an authority, "Well, honey, the scoreboard doesn't lie." Also, it makes things like eating candy and other, potentially not-so-good-for-you-things, easier to manage because they always happen as a result of doing something that you as a parent see fit and not randomly whenever your kid decides to go Che on you.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 10:28 AM on February 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Obviously, reasoning with children about the character building aspects of cleaning your room is pointless and seems utterly alien to kids. Heck, I know lots of adults who don't and can't keep their apartments clean, so I'm actually not sure how much this matters in the grand scheme of things but of course you can't let your kid know that.
Create a system of actions and rewards. Your daughter wants reward x {going to the movies, candy, etc} during the weekend? Well, the scoreboard says she doesn't have the y required stars/kittens because she didn't keep her room clean every day, so things don't look so good... Maybe if she helps clean the living room or take a bath without a fight.
Because you have a transparent system where the rules are clear, you can always refer to it as an authority, "Well, honey, the scoreboard doesn't lie." Also, it makes things like eating candy and other, potentially not-so-good-for-you-things, easier to manage because they always happen as a result of doing something that you as a parent see fit and not randomly whenever your kid decides to go Che on you.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 10:28 AM on February 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Is the problem that the mess builds and builds and she then has a huge mess to clean by the time you start making her do it, or are you just trying to get her to straightened out her room throughout the day? My son is younger, but we've been working on just getting him to put away his toys once he's done with them. That means he can pull every book off the shelf to read, but if I go in and find him playing with something else or he wants to move on to a new activity, we stop and put all the books away first (or whatever he's made a mess of). If he throws any kind of fit, I don't help him, if he asks nicely for help and he's actually putting things away himself, I help out. If he throws a really big fit about it, he goes off to time out to cool down and when he's composed and ready to try again, he gets to be let out of time out. The time out to cool down is actually our most common time out. Once mine gets fussing, everything becomes disastrous and nothing I say really makes it better, he has to calm down first before he can refocus.
The "It's too hard!" is a constant refrain we are getting from him across a variety of tasks we are starting to shift to him, and what is working for us, is instead of fussing and saying it's too hard, he has to tell the things what he wants them to do (e.g. "Go on that bookshelf! Or get in that box!", which helps to focus him and let out some frustration without it disintegrating into fussing and tears, which stops anything from happening. Obviously this might be a bit too young for you little one, but maybe a similar sort of thing, where she details what needs to be done in small steps so she can see what to tackle ("I need to put my dirty clothes in the hamper." "I need to put the art supplies in that box.")
posted by katers890 at 10:29 AM on February 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
The "It's too hard!" is a constant refrain we are getting from him across a variety of tasks we are starting to shift to him, and what is working for us, is instead of fussing and saying it's too hard, he has to tell the things what he wants them to do (e.g. "Go on that bookshelf! Or get in that box!", which helps to focus him and let out some frustration without it disintegrating into fussing and tears, which stops anything from happening. Obviously this might be a bit too young for you little one, but maybe a similar sort of thing, where she details what needs to be done in small steps so she can see what to tackle ("I need to put my dirty clothes in the hamper." "I need to put the art supplies in that box.")
posted by katers890 at 10:29 AM on February 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
When I worked at a preschool, we had a "cleanup song." (Oddly enough it was "You Can Do Magic" by America--no idea why my predecessor picked it, but the kids liked it.) When the music started, everyone had to stop what they were doing and clean up the room, and it had to be done by the end of the song. Some days we played it like a more productive version of freeze tag--clean the room when the music's playing, freeze when I paused it. Other days, if they finished by the time the song was over they got a treat, or we could have a "dance party" if they finished early enough.
Making it fun was way easier than fighting with them, and eventually it became second nature for 'em to just start cleaning when the music came on.
Disconcerting for me now when the song comes on at work, but that's a whole 'nother story.
posted by kittenmarlowe at 10:32 AM on February 5, 2012 [26 favorites]
Making it fun was way easier than fighting with them, and eventually it became second nature for 'em to just start cleaning when the music came on.
Disconcerting for me now when the song comes on at work, but that's a whole 'nother story.
posted by kittenmarlowe at 10:32 AM on February 5, 2012 [26 favorites]
Oh dear. I was the kid with the atrocious bedroom. I'm pleased to report that my parents' tidy ways eventually rubbed off on me, but back then my room was a pigsty in an otherwise very clean house. When my room would get messy, my folks would make me put everything that was out of place into a big pile in the middle of the room and have me put away each item piece by piece. It was the only thing that worked for me.
The idea of a chore chart above is excellent. I imagine it "put away toys on Monday and Friday" would be much easier to face and accomplish than "CLEAN ENTIRE ROOM RIGHT NOW GRRRRR."
posted by futureisunwritten at 10:38 AM on February 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
The idea of a chore chart above is excellent. I imagine it "put away toys on Monday and Friday" would be much easier to face and accomplish than "CLEAN ENTIRE ROOM RIGHT NOW GRRRRR."
posted by futureisunwritten at 10:38 AM on February 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
Is there actually a place for her to put everything, and are those locations accessible and sensible for a 5-year-old (e.g., are there enough bookshelves to actually hold all her books, and are they kid-sized)? Are there some (colorful, inexpensive) organizing tools that you could get that might make the tasks easier and more meaningful to her, such as baskets and bins for specific types of objects (e.g., all stuffed animals go in the purple basket; all dress-up clothes go in the yellow bin; all jackets and coats go on the red hooks on the back of the door, etc.)? Is there enough room in her closet to hang things up, and can she physically perform that task (something like this can help on both those scores)?
My sister had been driving herself (and her kids, ages 6-11) crazy over all this for ages, until she realized that their rooms weren't really set up for them to clean. Once she addressed the underlying organizational needs of the room from a kid's perspective (rather than from her perspective), though, the problem started to improve.
posted by scody at 10:44 AM on February 5, 2012 [9 favorites]
My sister had been driving herself (and her kids, ages 6-11) crazy over all this for ages, until she realized that their rooms weren't really set up for them to clean. Once she addressed the underlying organizational needs of the room from a kid's perspective (rather than from her perspective), though, the problem started to improve.
posted by scody at 10:44 AM on February 5, 2012 [9 favorites]
I have a silly mom. I also was born a super-perfectionist and very hard on myself. My mom's positive reinforcement techniques worked far more than my dad's irritated, angry, micromanaging, over-the-shoulder picking at me and making sure I did it all the just right way, because between his external "do it this way or it's wrong" and my internal "I have to do it right the first time and there can't ever be mistakes or I'm bad"...I'd just give up.
Sure, take away whatever you want, I did it wrong and I'm a screw-up and I can't do anything. I hate me. I can't write well or organize or do it just the way you want, so it doesn't matter.
Here are things that actually helped me, from my postive-reinforcement mom, and what I learned working with kids with similar issues to mine:
--CLEANING DANCE PARTY. (This takes a few tries to keep tasks getting completed. On the other hand, with CLEANING DANCE PARTY, you can set a limited amount of time for CLEANING DANCE PARTY and then you can have a couple of songs at the end for just DANCE PARTY. CLEANING DANCE PARTY has to be finished before DANCE PARTY can begin. I'm 32 and I can still clean my entire apartment to Fine Young Cannibals' "The Raw and the Cooked," ABBA's "Greatest Hits," the Flashdance soundtrack....I'm just saying.)
--STICKER CHARTS, with illustrated chores. (I was an early reader, so I didn't need pictures, but not all children read at the same pace.)
--Defuse the learned helplessness/frustrated tantrum/whining and angry-mom cycle by THROWING A BETTER TANTRUM. If you can end the wailing about the despair of cleaning and tidying with a dramatic sink to the floor and "die" with a long creaking croaking groan and roll over in misery, arm across the eyes, and desperate noises. If you do this well, you will have a rapt audience at the end. This is your chance. Turn on all the positivity you have into being the captain of Team Clean (you do not have to say that part aloud). It's rough, kiddo, I don't love cleaning either. But we gotta do it, so let's earn some stickers and put on the music and let's DO THIS. I'm going to get fresh sheets for the bed...you are in charge of my little ponies. They need to go in the toy box. GO! HIGH-FIVE, LADY! WE RULE AT CLEANING! DANCE PARTY!
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 10:44 AM on February 5, 2012 [25 favorites]
Sure, take away whatever you want, I did it wrong and I'm a screw-up and I can't do anything. I hate me. I can't write well or organize or do it just the way you want, so it doesn't matter.
Here are things that actually helped me, from my postive-reinforcement mom, and what I learned working with kids with similar issues to mine:
--CLEANING DANCE PARTY. (This takes a few tries to keep tasks getting completed. On the other hand, with CLEANING DANCE PARTY, you can set a limited amount of time for CLEANING DANCE PARTY and then you can have a couple of songs at the end for just DANCE PARTY. CLEANING DANCE PARTY has to be finished before DANCE PARTY can begin. I'm 32 and I can still clean my entire apartment to Fine Young Cannibals' "The Raw and the Cooked," ABBA's "Greatest Hits," the Flashdance soundtrack....I'm just saying.)
--STICKER CHARTS, with illustrated chores. (I was an early reader, so I didn't need pictures, but not all children read at the same pace.)
--Defuse the learned helplessness/frustrated tantrum/whining and angry-mom cycle by THROWING A BETTER TANTRUM. If you can end the wailing about the despair of cleaning and tidying with a dramatic sink to the floor and "die" with a long creaking croaking groan and roll over in misery, arm across the eyes, and desperate noises. If you do this well, you will have a rapt audience at the end. This is your chance. Turn on all the positivity you have into being the captain of Team Clean (you do not have to say that part aloud). It's rough, kiddo, I don't love cleaning either. But we gotta do it, so let's earn some stickers and put on the music and let's DO THIS. I'm going to get fresh sheets for the bed...you are in charge of my little ponies. They need to go in the toy box. GO! HIGH-FIVE, LADY! WE RULE AT CLEANING! DANCE PARTY!
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 10:44 AM on February 5, 2012 [25 favorites]
"Clean your room" may be overwhelming. Start with "Pick up your clothing" then "Great! Now, pick up the stuffed animals. I cut up an apple for you to snack on while you do that" then "Pick up all your legos" then "What good progress. I'll help you hang up your clean clothes." etc. Lots of positive message "It's so much more fun when the doll clothes are all together, isn't it?" I recommend putting lots of toys away, and rotating them. They don't get as 'stale' and there's not so much to pick up. We had lots of plastic buckets on shelves to make organization easier.
posted by theora55 at 10:45 AM on February 5, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 10:45 AM on February 5, 2012 [3 favorites]
Separate out the problems.
Problem one: Your 5½ year old doesn't want to clean her room, and is making a lot of excuses not to.
Problem two: You are losing your temper when your 5½ year old fails to clean her room to your expectations.
As far as problem one, above posters really have that covered. I was a sloppy kid without much focus, and chore charts were gold for me. A set time to do something made it so that I didn't feel like I was missing out on something I could have otherwise been doing that was more fun. I absolutely would have responded to the "if it's too hard to clean up your toys, you have too many toys" threat. A friend of mine puts things that are not cleaned up by a deadline into a toy jail, and her son has to bail them out with particular good behavior. For example, if he wants a toy car in the jail, she asks him what he'll do to earn it back. He will suggest eating extra greens at dinner, drying the plastic dishes, or wiping down a mirror with a squeegee.
As far as problem two, well, sometimes adults need to go to time-out, too. When I feel like I'm losing my temper, I will step back, announce that I need a couple of minutes, and go take some time. Perhaps you can work this out with your kid. When you are about to lose your temper, announce that you are, and say that you are setting a timer for five minutes and going to have your own time-out to chill out and be less angry. Setting an example of time-out being a place to think and cool down as opposed to a post-tantrum punishment is a good way for kids to learn healthy anger management.
posted by juniperesque at 10:48 AM on February 5, 2012 [7 favorites]
Problem one: Your 5½ year old doesn't want to clean her room, and is making a lot of excuses not to.
Problem two: You are losing your temper when your 5½ year old fails to clean her room to your expectations.
As far as problem one, above posters really have that covered. I was a sloppy kid without much focus, and chore charts were gold for me. A set time to do something made it so that I didn't feel like I was missing out on something I could have otherwise been doing that was more fun. I absolutely would have responded to the "if it's too hard to clean up your toys, you have too many toys" threat. A friend of mine puts things that are not cleaned up by a deadline into a toy jail, and her son has to bail them out with particular good behavior. For example, if he wants a toy car in the jail, she asks him what he'll do to earn it back. He will suggest eating extra greens at dinner, drying the plastic dishes, or wiping down a mirror with a squeegee.
As far as problem two, well, sometimes adults need to go to time-out, too. When I feel like I'm losing my temper, I will step back, announce that I need a couple of minutes, and go take some time. Perhaps you can work this out with your kid. When you are about to lose your temper, announce that you are, and say that you are setting a timer for five minutes and going to have your own time-out to chill out and be less angry. Setting an example of time-out being a place to think and cool down as opposed to a post-tantrum punishment is a good way for kids to learn healthy anger management.
posted by juniperesque at 10:48 AM on February 5, 2012 [7 favorites]
Do it yourself and be happy
or
type up a specific to-do list and laminate.
Jane's Beautiful Bedroom:
1. Put Barbie dolls in pink bin
2. Put Legos in Lego bin
3. Put doll clothes in blue box
4. Put books on shelf
4. Look under the bed!
5. Put dirty clothes in hamper
6. Make Bed
7. etc.
Praise by stating the facts. "it's such a pleasure to come into this clean bedroom." "You worked hard at putting your stuff away." "You organized your toys so nicely."
Another thing to do is to give her one task, leave, come back and praise, and give her another task. I do this with my kids. Example: "Put all Nerf guns in basket." "Pick baseball cards off floor and put into red bin."
posted by Fairchild at 10:49 AM on February 5, 2012 [3 favorites]
or
type up a specific to-do list and laminate.
Jane's Beautiful Bedroom:
1. Put Barbie dolls in pink bin
2. Put Legos in Lego bin
3. Put doll clothes in blue box
4. Put books on shelf
4. Look under the bed!
5. Put dirty clothes in hamper
6. Make Bed
7. etc.
Praise by stating the facts. "it's such a pleasure to come into this clean bedroom." "You worked hard at putting your stuff away." "You organized your toys so nicely."
Another thing to do is to give her one task, leave, come back and praise, and give her another task. I do this with my kids. Example: "Put all Nerf guns in basket." "Pick baseball cards off floor and put into red bin."
posted by Fairchild at 10:49 AM on February 5, 2012 [3 favorites]
Yeah, speaking as someone with somewhat equivalent emotional maturity to a 5.5 year old when it comes to cleaning my room, sometimes the general statement CLEAN YOUR ROOOOOM is too much to deal with. A clear step-by-step system with discrete tasks is much easier to handle.
posted by elizardbits at 10:50 AM on February 5, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by elizardbits at 10:50 AM on February 5, 2012 [5 favorites]
I find that my kids respond very well to being given a specific job to do. So not, "clean up the living room," but "put all of toy X into the toy X bin," or "pick up five things off the floor," and so on. We also sometimes work to a timer--"let's spend 3 minutes picking up!" And I try to suggest these things when none of us are tired, I'm not feeling cranky, people have just had a snack, and there's maybe something fun waiting at the end of the three minutes. So I might take advantage of a decision to play a board game together by saying, "Why don't you guys take two minutes while I clear off the table and set up the game, and pick up the stuff you were playing with earlier?" I do a lot of my own chores this way--quickly unloading the dishwasher while I'm waiting for the tea water to boil, for instance, or doing a quick sinkful of hand dishes while soup is heating for lunch--so it has been pretty easy to extend that to the kids.
I also find that they respond well to requests that start with me saying, "You know what would be a big help? If you...." It's a very positive way to ask.
If a job feels overwhelming to them, or they say something like, "I can't pick up all that!" I say, "Anything you can do will be a big help. Just do as much as you can," and then when they have done what they can I thank them.
And I let it be OK if they say no to these requests sometimes.
posted by not that girl at 10:54 AM on February 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
I also find that they respond well to requests that start with me saying, "You know what would be a big help? If you...." It's a very positive way to ask.
If a job feels overwhelming to them, or they say something like, "I can't pick up all that!" I say, "Anything you can do will be a big help. Just do as much as you can," and then when they have done what they can I thank them.
And I let it be OK if they say no to these requests sometimes.
posted by not that girl at 10:54 AM on February 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
She always resists, saying things like "I'm too tired" or "you always make me do everything" and "its too hard". I help her every step of the way, coaching her how to put things away, and where, but things still always fall apart, with her crying, and me mad. (If I didn't help her every step of the way, it wouldn't get done) This is the biggest conflict we currently have.
You know, she might be just a kid who doesn't want to clean her room. But have you ever considered that maybe she's not lying when she says it's too hard? Sometimes tasks that seem incredibly easy and straightforward to most people can be almost impossible for people with ADHD, for example. Even adults with ADHD can find organization/time management/focus to be very difficult. Has she ever been checked for inattentive-type ADHD?
I guess my advice would be to really thoroughly check and see if she is telling the truth, before jumping to frustration/punishment/etc.
posted by cairdeas at 11:10 AM on February 5, 2012 [3 favorites]
You know, she might be just a kid who doesn't want to clean her room. But have you ever considered that maybe she's not lying when she says it's too hard? Sometimes tasks that seem incredibly easy and straightforward to most people can be almost impossible for people with ADHD, for example. Even adults with ADHD can find organization/time management/focus to be very difficult. Has she ever been checked for inattentive-type ADHD?
I guess my advice would be to really thoroughly check and see if she is telling the truth, before jumping to frustration/punishment/etc.
posted by cairdeas at 11:10 AM on February 5, 2012 [3 favorites]
a) If you're getting mad at them, take a breather. This is more important than dealing with your kid's untidy room right at this moment.
b) positive reward! 'if you do [well defined, manageable task, such as putting those clothes in the floor into the hamper] then you can have a sleepover tonight or tomorrow.
c) routine and reminders. When a kid takes something out, remind them to put it away. This prevents the accumulation of tasks that, when deferred, become overwhelming. It's easier to put that board game away now then to clean up an entire room of stuff later.
d) tolerance. It's not the end of the world if a kid's room is messy. No matter how much this offends a parent's sense of order.
e) but really, (a) is task number one. It's a kid's job to push boundaries, and it's a parent's job to cope with that, or acquire the skills that allow them to do that (spoken as a parent who had to do a lot of growing here). And the boundary pushing doesn't stop at 5.5 - get skills now beyond managing the kid's chores and you and your kid will have a much easier time.
posted by zippy at 11:10 AM on February 5, 2012
b) positive reward! 'if you do [well defined, manageable task, such as putting those clothes in the floor into the hamper] then you can have a sleepover tonight or tomorrow.
c) routine and reminders. When a kid takes something out, remind them to put it away. This prevents the accumulation of tasks that, when deferred, become overwhelming. It's easier to put that board game away now then to clean up an entire room of stuff later.
d) tolerance. It's not the end of the world if a kid's room is messy. No matter how much this offends a parent's sense of order.
e) but really, (a) is task number one. It's a kid's job to push boundaries, and it's a parent's job to cope with that, or acquire the skills that allow them to do that (spoken as a parent who had to do a lot of growing here). And the boundary pushing doesn't stop at 5.5 - get skills now beyond managing the kid's chores and you and your kid will have a much easier time.
posted by zippy at 11:10 AM on February 5, 2012
Also, sometimes I could clean when I was dressed as (episode IV) Princess Leia. Or She-Ra. Or Caspar the Friendly Ghost, and then listen to the Ghostbusters soundtrack while cleaning/doing chores.
Note how all of these require previously acquired Halloween masks and basically a white cape (a cape made into a toga w/r/t Leia. It was just the Caspar cape, though). Not high-tech/complicated costume prep beforehand. Being Cheetara or Optimus Prime--I had to make up the costume in my head, because I didn't have those. But did you know that they are superhero cleaners, too? With super-strength and fortitude and can wait out feeling frustrated. They could do things I couldn't do just as myself.
FOR THE HONOR OF GREYSKULL....
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 11:15 AM on February 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
Note how all of these require previously acquired Halloween masks and basically a white cape (a cape made into a toga w/r/t Leia. It was just the Caspar cape, though). Not high-tech/complicated costume prep beforehand. Being Cheetara or Optimus Prime--I had to make up the costume in my head, because I didn't have those. But did you know that they are superhero cleaners, too? With super-strength and fortitude and can wait out feeling frustrated. They could do things I couldn't do just as myself.
FOR THE HONOR OF GREYSKULL....
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 11:15 AM on February 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
This is the biggest conflict we currently have
We had this problem. We chose to let her leave her room as messy as she pleased, because it was her space and she's a pack rat. She wasn't allowed to make the public areas of the house messy, but her room we left alone.
She just turned 20 and her room at the house is still messy, so we keep the door closed. However, her room at college, which she shares is much neater. The problem sorts itself in time and we worried about more important things.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:17 AM on February 5, 2012 [6 favorites]
We had this problem. We chose to let her leave her room as messy as she pleased, because it was her space and she's a pack rat. She wasn't allowed to make the public areas of the house messy, but her room we left alone.
She just turned 20 and her room at the house is still messy, so we keep the door closed. However, her room at college, which she shares is much neater. The problem sorts itself in time and we worried about more important things.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:17 AM on February 5, 2012 [6 favorites]
Apologies for the forthcoming novel - I'm on a break from related project, and am using one part of my brain to mull over that while thinking about this. I am also sure forty good answers are going to come in while I'm pecking away. Ah, yes, upon preview. I admire Fairchild's brevity. Here's what I'd tell you over a cup of coffee:
I've been there, and we've done this. My daughter is now 8, and it's finally not horrible. Some of that's age, but some of that was figuring out what I was doing wrong. I learned a lot from how they do things in school - routine and habit and reason means a lot. Peer pressure does a lot, but it's also the quiet authority and the structure. The great news is that she is the perfect age to start getting this, and it will be reinforced there. Kindergarten is the great eye-opener.
Looking at it from her perspective, it's a lot to get her mind around. Even if she's watched you do it, or helped you do it fortyhundred times, she's not really all "there" as it's happening, because that's just how kids are. My own kid asks at least once a week "Now, tell me again - what am I going upstairs for?" because while I'm saying "It's time to get your pajamas on and brush your teeth", she's spotted a book on the way up the stairs and she's now Lucy in Narnia.
If you've been doing the clean-ups without a plan, she hasn't yet learned either how you do it, or how she should do it. She also can't see into your thought process. "I'm too tired" reads as "I'm overwhelmed." "You always make me do everything" reads as "I don't know where to start." And "It's too hard" is "It seems like too much all at once."
Kids that age can only really focus on a task like for about fifteen minutes (pulling that from memory and experience) and so you also need to make it so that it's something she can accomplish in about fifteen minutes.
Then, besides the routine, there needs to be specific places for specific things, and general places for generic things. And there needs to not be a vast amount of things, too. If she makes a mess because she's pulling out everything to find the few things she's really playing with, there's too much stuff. Tidying is different than cleaning in our house. Cleaning is taking fifteen minutes to go around and dust everything on the surfaces and shelves, or vacuuming the curtains and floor and mattress. It's rarely everything all at once - that's too much for me, let alone a kid. But if the room is tidy, cleaning can happen.
Look at what happens in school: Kids enter. They hang their things in a specific cubby. They sit down for circle time, then they go to stations for things. When they play with toys, the toys are kept in labelled bins, and the amount of toys is contained to the containers that are there - one for blocks, one for people, one for puzzles, etc. Sometimes they also make it a game - put the blue blocks away. Put five red blocks away. That can help. Art supplies are also kept in containers appropriate to the child's age and use. And everything is tidied away right when they're done, so there's never an accumulation. And look at how many toys there are for, say, twenty kids - as many as some kids have on their own!
There is no incentive for putting things away in school other than "this is what's done and this is how we do it." When everyone's done, the reward is moving onto the next thing. If you don't do your part, you join the others when you're finished, so you learn to be more efficient. Natural consequences work better than artificial rewards. It also has to be done so that the custodians can do their job at the end of the day. So the awareness that other people depend on this is part of it all.
Also, well - they're set up to succeed. They're told what to do, not just what they're not doing.
First, look at what she really, really plays with. Some things she likely hasn't grown into, some things she's definitely outgrown - but some things she will play with more once they're easy and accessible. Take some time to observe her.
Then, look at how things are placed in her room. Look at how she used it, and look at the mess to see where things end up. For example, in my kid's room, her robe and slippers have a hook by the door, as she puts the robe on right there, and takes it off to get dressed. Her pajamas are in a bin under her bed, where it's more logical for her to put them on. Her laundry bin is right by where she gets undressed. Her clothes are in a small wardrobe, folded and hung so she can reach them and are logically sorted with bottom half clothing on the bottom; top half clothing on top. Dress-up clothes and accessories in one bin. Books on a bookshelf. Stuffies in a wall-hanger and bins beneath (And when I help, and am feeling fussy, I sort them into forest creatures vs. domestic animals, then land vs. air and sea, but I admit I'm fussy.) A suitcase of doll clothes under one bin. There's a hat box for small odds and ends and jewellery and trinkets; and a less-accessible suitcase for a more permanent keepsake box. Her bedside table has a lamp, the book she's reading, her boom box and a few cds. The bottom shelf of that has her various piggy banks (saving, spending, charity) and that's about it. Oh, and her pet gecko, because she says she needs to sleep near something alive to feel safe. There are, essentially places for the things she does in her room, and only the things she does in her room in her room.
So, when it's time to tidy - chore charts and incentives and stuff kind of work. But at a certain point, kids still have the option not to forgo the mark, and not to earn them. This kicks in when they're older. Really, it just has to be part of the day, and the earlier it starts, the better. Your daughter is a great age for this!
My husband uses Action Plans at work. He had to attend a three-day seminar on how to implement them, and while at first we were resentful when he suggested them for home, we learned to love them. Different than to-do lists, they define a process by which a task can be completed without getting derailed.
So, the Evening Plan for our daughter is not different than what pretty much every parent and kid does - it just includes tidy-up time as part of what she does:
7:30 Bath, shower or other grooming (this includes toenail/fingernails sometimes, hairbrushing, special attention to facial skin etc.)
8:00 Bedtime snack, pajamas, brush teeth
8:30 Tidy room* (see tidy room chart)
8:45 In bed reading
9:00 Stories, kisses, cuddles then honk-shus
It helps her to wind down her day, and it helps to make the mornings better to sort things out and to start fresh. It's just part of the routine, so I only have to remind her once a day, not randomly or at times when I'm overwhelmed myself. There are no rewards or incentives, it's just what family members do as part of the family. She understands it needs to be done at that time so that I can dust and vacuum during the next day, or so that she can do her part more easily when I ask her to do the next day - be it washing the window or changing her sheets without having to remove a bajillion stuffies. When she doesn't clean up, the consequence is that if I have to do it the next day as part of my housework, things may be donated. That only had to happen once to be effective. If she cares about her things, she'll learn to take care of them. Once or twice, my kid has handed me something and said "I think I'd rather donate this than have to put it away again."
The morning and evening action plans are flexible that they can really start at any time, and the actual times within them are flexible; but it's a process that makes every day manageable. It's the increments that count, and the order they're in. It gives me time to do my own swipe the bathroom/put away a basket of laundry/clear the coffee table/run the dishwasher beginning or end of day stuff, as I can check in on her at each increment, rather than hover.
Her tidy up chart looks like this. (So do her morning and evening charts - they're on a clipboard hanging in her room.) I wrote it in an order that lets there be immediate, visible differences, and considers the layers of mess in there. I considered her habits, and designed it so that one of the last things to focus on was the bed, and choosing any extra blankets or stuffies to sleep with that night, to put her mind there. She makes it in the morning (just smooths the duvet), but often plays on it or makes a fort with the blankets. When I come in to kiss her good night, I take the basket of things out with me, and it reminds me to acknowledge that she did her job. If I don't have a basket with something in it, it's an invitation for conversation, and either I wake her earlier to do it in the morning, or else that's the first thing she has to do after school.
And now, because I haven't written enough - one trick we use for determining the value of toys - I go through them every once in a while, and cull the ones I've noticed aren't getting a lot of play. She is okay with this, as she realized that after the first few times she could trust my choices, and that she was relieved not to have to make those decisions. They go in a bag in the basement. I make a note on the calendar. If she hasn't used them or asked for them in two months or so, I move them along, either dropping the bag next door for our neighbour's granddaughter or to the thrift store. I let her know when I'm doing this, and since by then she's emotionally detached from the items, it's easier and she can even feel good about delivering them to kids who will really play them and often takes them herself. It lets her learn to live with the anxiety of letting things go (an issue for her) and come out feeling good on the other side.
Right now, which is why I have all this time, I am taking a break from a project: To give my daughter a place to be messy. Currently, she has to clean up every art project she starts on either the kitchen or the dining room or coffee table when the adults need to use it. And she has to clean up toys like Playmobil and Lego because they're in the living room, and I like it to be a tidy adult space when she's not actually playing with those things in here (they're stored in a cabinet in the corner of the room). I figured out, finally, that the buffet in the kitchen is continually dumped on and in because she always has to clear the kitchen table off in the middle of one of her projects when I need to use it for cooking; then her thought process is interrupted, the joy is gone, and she never gets back to it. Then the half-finished projects pile up. She actually needs a space that can stay messy and piled with something for a while, so that the space I need frequently can be clean and so she can re-visit projects as the ideas develop over time. It's weird - to create a place for a mess, but it's what's going to work for us, and so a desk and supplies for better craft storage and completed art display is being assembled as I type. It's actually going to be a space where she can leave a creative mess. And the desk's box came with a nice piece of particle board that fits exactly under her bed. This will allow her to build a Lego or Playmobil scene, or leave a complex build half-done, so she can get back to it - but also, she can slide it under her bed so I don't have to look at it (I'm spray-gluing cork to the top, and an old felt blanket other side so it doesn't scratch the floor). Having to clean everything every day was frustrating her, and making me crabby too. So I'm also going to suggest giving your daughter one place where she can leave some of her things out for open-ended play.
Good luck, really. This will be a constant issue to revisit over time as your daughter grows and changes and her interests reflect that; and what your daughter is doing is completely age-appropriate expression within a typical power-struggle. We're never far away from some little conflict about this, but we manage ourselves better now. You can tweak a few things and I'm sure it will all come around. This week I'll be relocating a few stuffies to Grandma's house to make room for more dolls in her room, rather than downstairs. The way she plays with them, working out girl issues and ideas of romance and drama class she's taking have made me think she'd like more privacy for that; so one bin of stuffies and the suitcase of baby doll clothes will move to make room for the camper van and tiny clothing of the plastic posse. It's bittersweet.
posted by peagood at 11:57 AM on February 5, 2012 [19 favorites]
I've been there, and we've done this. My daughter is now 8, and it's finally not horrible. Some of that's age, but some of that was figuring out what I was doing wrong. I learned a lot from how they do things in school - routine and habit and reason means a lot. Peer pressure does a lot, but it's also the quiet authority and the structure. The great news is that she is the perfect age to start getting this, and it will be reinforced there. Kindergarten is the great eye-opener.
Looking at it from her perspective, it's a lot to get her mind around. Even if she's watched you do it, or helped you do it fortyhundred times, she's not really all "there" as it's happening, because that's just how kids are. My own kid asks at least once a week "Now, tell me again - what am I going upstairs for?" because while I'm saying "It's time to get your pajamas on and brush your teeth", she's spotted a book on the way up the stairs and she's now Lucy in Narnia.
If you've been doing the clean-ups without a plan, she hasn't yet learned either how you do it, or how she should do it. She also can't see into your thought process. "I'm too tired" reads as "I'm overwhelmed." "You always make me do everything" reads as "I don't know where to start." And "It's too hard" is "It seems like too much all at once."
Kids that age can only really focus on a task like for about fifteen minutes (pulling that from memory and experience) and so you also need to make it so that it's something she can accomplish in about fifteen minutes.
Then, besides the routine, there needs to be specific places for specific things, and general places for generic things. And there needs to not be a vast amount of things, too. If she makes a mess because she's pulling out everything to find the few things she's really playing with, there's too much stuff. Tidying is different than cleaning in our house. Cleaning is taking fifteen minutes to go around and dust everything on the surfaces and shelves, or vacuuming the curtains and floor and mattress. It's rarely everything all at once - that's too much for me, let alone a kid. But if the room is tidy, cleaning can happen.
Look at what happens in school: Kids enter. They hang their things in a specific cubby. They sit down for circle time, then they go to stations for things. When they play with toys, the toys are kept in labelled bins, and the amount of toys is contained to the containers that are there - one for blocks, one for people, one for puzzles, etc. Sometimes they also make it a game - put the blue blocks away. Put five red blocks away. That can help. Art supplies are also kept in containers appropriate to the child's age and use. And everything is tidied away right when they're done, so there's never an accumulation. And look at how many toys there are for, say, twenty kids - as many as some kids have on their own!
There is no incentive for putting things away in school other than "this is what's done and this is how we do it." When everyone's done, the reward is moving onto the next thing. If you don't do your part, you join the others when you're finished, so you learn to be more efficient. Natural consequences work better than artificial rewards. It also has to be done so that the custodians can do their job at the end of the day. So the awareness that other people depend on this is part of it all.
Also, well - they're set up to succeed. They're told what to do, not just what they're not doing.
First, look at what she really, really plays with. Some things she likely hasn't grown into, some things she's definitely outgrown - but some things she will play with more once they're easy and accessible. Take some time to observe her.
Then, look at how things are placed in her room. Look at how she used it, and look at the mess to see where things end up. For example, in my kid's room, her robe and slippers have a hook by the door, as she puts the robe on right there, and takes it off to get dressed. Her pajamas are in a bin under her bed, where it's more logical for her to put them on. Her laundry bin is right by where she gets undressed. Her clothes are in a small wardrobe, folded and hung so she can reach them and are logically sorted with bottom half clothing on the bottom; top half clothing on top. Dress-up clothes and accessories in one bin. Books on a bookshelf. Stuffies in a wall-hanger and bins beneath (And when I help, and am feeling fussy, I sort them into forest creatures vs. domestic animals, then land vs. air and sea, but I admit I'm fussy.) A suitcase of doll clothes under one bin. There's a hat box for small odds and ends and jewellery and trinkets; and a less-accessible suitcase for a more permanent keepsake box. Her bedside table has a lamp, the book she's reading, her boom box and a few cds. The bottom shelf of that has her various piggy banks (saving, spending, charity) and that's about it. Oh, and her pet gecko, because she says she needs to sleep near something alive to feel safe. There are, essentially places for the things she does in her room, and only the things she does in her room in her room.
So, when it's time to tidy - chore charts and incentives and stuff kind of work. But at a certain point, kids still have the option not to forgo the mark, and not to earn them. This kicks in when they're older. Really, it just has to be part of the day, and the earlier it starts, the better. Your daughter is a great age for this!
My husband uses Action Plans at work. He had to attend a three-day seminar on how to implement them, and while at first we were resentful when he suggested them for home, we learned to love them. Different than to-do lists, they define a process by which a task can be completed without getting derailed.
So, the Evening Plan for our daughter is not different than what pretty much every parent and kid does - it just includes tidy-up time as part of what she does:
7:30 Bath, shower or other grooming (this includes toenail/fingernails sometimes, hairbrushing, special attention to facial skin etc.)
8:00 Bedtime snack, pajamas, brush teeth
8:30 Tidy room* (see tidy room chart)
8:45 In bed reading
9:00 Stories, kisses, cuddles then honk-shus
It helps her to wind down her day, and it helps to make the mornings better to sort things out and to start fresh. It's just part of the routine, so I only have to remind her once a day, not randomly or at times when I'm overwhelmed myself. There are no rewards or incentives, it's just what family members do as part of the family. She understands it needs to be done at that time so that I can dust and vacuum during the next day, or so that she can do her part more easily when I ask her to do the next day - be it washing the window or changing her sheets without having to remove a bajillion stuffies. When she doesn't clean up, the consequence is that if I have to do it the next day as part of my housework, things may be donated. That only had to happen once to be effective. If she cares about her things, she'll learn to take care of them. Once or twice, my kid has handed me something and said "I think I'd rather donate this than have to put it away again."
The morning and evening action plans are flexible that they can really start at any time, and the actual times within them are flexible; but it's a process that makes every day manageable. It's the increments that count, and the order they're in. It gives me time to do my own swipe the bathroom/put away a basket of laundry/clear the coffee table/run the dishwasher beginning or end of day stuff, as I can check in on her at each increment, rather than hover.
Her tidy up chart looks like this. (So do her morning and evening charts - they're on a clipboard hanging in her room.) I wrote it in an order that lets there be immediate, visible differences, and considers the layers of mess in there. I considered her habits, and designed it so that one of the last things to focus on was the bed, and choosing any extra blankets or stuffies to sleep with that night, to put her mind there. She makes it in the morning (just smooths the duvet), but often plays on it or makes a fort with the blankets. When I come in to kiss her good night, I take the basket of things out with me, and it reminds me to acknowledge that she did her job. If I don't have a basket with something in it, it's an invitation for conversation, and either I wake her earlier to do it in the morning, or else that's the first thing she has to do after school.
And now, because I haven't written enough - one trick we use for determining the value of toys - I go through them every once in a while, and cull the ones I've noticed aren't getting a lot of play. She is okay with this, as she realized that after the first few times she could trust my choices, and that she was relieved not to have to make those decisions. They go in a bag in the basement. I make a note on the calendar. If she hasn't used them or asked for them in two months or so, I move them along, either dropping the bag next door for our neighbour's granddaughter or to the thrift store. I let her know when I'm doing this, and since by then she's emotionally detached from the items, it's easier and she can even feel good about delivering them to kids who will really play them and often takes them herself. It lets her learn to live with the anxiety of letting things go (an issue for her) and come out feeling good on the other side.
Right now, which is why I have all this time, I am taking a break from a project: To give my daughter a place to be messy. Currently, she has to clean up every art project she starts on either the kitchen or the dining room or coffee table when the adults need to use it. And she has to clean up toys like Playmobil and Lego because they're in the living room, and I like it to be a tidy adult space when she's not actually playing with those things in here (they're stored in a cabinet in the corner of the room). I figured out, finally, that the buffet in the kitchen is continually dumped on and in because she always has to clear the kitchen table off in the middle of one of her projects when I need to use it for cooking; then her thought process is interrupted, the joy is gone, and she never gets back to it. Then the half-finished projects pile up. She actually needs a space that can stay messy and piled with something for a while, so that the space I need frequently can be clean and so she can re-visit projects as the ideas develop over time. It's weird - to create a place for a mess, but it's what's going to work for us, and so a desk and supplies for better craft storage and completed art display is being assembled as I type. It's actually going to be a space where she can leave a creative mess. And the desk's box came with a nice piece of particle board that fits exactly under her bed. This will allow her to build a Lego or Playmobil scene, or leave a complex build half-done, so she can get back to it - but also, she can slide it under her bed so I don't have to look at it (I'm spray-gluing cork to the top, and an old felt blanket other side so it doesn't scratch the floor). Having to clean everything every day was frustrating her, and making me crabby too. So I'm also going to suggest giving your daughter one place where she can leave some of her things out for open-ended play.
Good luck, really. This will be a constant issue to revisit over time as your daughter grows and changes and her interests reflect that; and what your daughter is doing is completely age-appropriate expression within a typical power-struggle. We're never far away from some little conflict about this, but we manage ourselves better now. You can tweak a few things and I'm sure it will all come around. This week I'll be relocating a few stuffies to Grandma's house to make room for more dolls in her room, rather than downstairs. The way she plays with them, working out girl issues and ideas of romance and drama class she's taking have made me think she'd like more privacy for that; so one bin of stuffies and the suitcase of baby doll clothes will move to make room for the camper van and tiny clothing of the plastic posse. It's bittersweet.
posted by peagood at 11:57 AM on February 5, 2012 [19 favorites]
She says she's tired, and you help her? Oh my, I was on to that little stunt about her age. Get yelled at a bit, request help, then slowly sidle out and let mum do the rest. Worked. Every. Time. Did mum yell at me? Yes, but she yelled at me in a tidy bedroom which got that way with minimal effort from me.
37 years later I'm still a messy git, but you can't fault me on my people-management skills.
posted by scruss at 11:58 AM on February 5, 2012
37 years later I'm still a messy git, but you can't fault me on my people-management skills.
posted by scruss at 11:58 AM on February 5, 2012
For me the problem was always:
1. There is too much stuff to do, the tasks are big, and I have other stuff to do which is way more interesting.
2. I will never ever be done with this, which is very disheartening.
3. I didn't have good places to put things, and it was a heck of a lot easier to find $item if I left it in a random spot that I could see (even if it was on top of a bunch of other things, in a giant pile in the center of the room) than if it got hidden away in a drawer someplace, using an organizational system I had no part in creating and never really understood.
Charts, super concrete goals, and open/easy/plentiful storage are the keys to keeping stuff clean for me, to this day.
posted by SMPA at 12:02 PM on February 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
1. There is too much stuff to do, the tasks are big, and I have other stuff to do which is way more interesting.
2. I will never ever be done with this, which is very disheartening.
3. I didn't have good places to put things, and it was a heck of a lot easier to find $item if I left it in a random spot that I could see (even if it was on top of a bunch of other things, in a giant pile in the center of the room) than if it got hidden away in a drawer someplace, using an organizational system I had no part in creating and never really understood.
Charts, super concrete goals, and open/easy/plentiful storage are the keys to keeping stuff clean for me, to this day.
posted by SMPA at 12:02 PM on February 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks everyone for the helpful advice. I would like to say that there is a do-able "place for everything" storage system in place. Also, I don't tell her to "clean her room," I break it down into small, simple manageble tasks (i.e. books on bookshelf" etc.)
posted by hollyanderbody at 12:34 PM on February 5, 2012
posted by hollyanderbody at 12:34 PM on February 5, 2012
I have a toddler. I try to stick with specific requests, i.e. Please pick up your blocks. But we were having these mutual meltdowns where he would just say "no I am not picking that up" and I would threaten and lose my cool and then we were both miserable and the blocks were still in the floor.
Moral of the story: do not get in a battle of wills with a toddler.
Our new rule is that after I've asked you to pick up a toy, if you haven't done it or are too tired or you "caaaaaaaaaan't", I will pick them up and put them AWAY (preferably in a conspicuous place where he can see it but not reach it) for a day. As in, no playing with them for 24 hours.
I was a real hard ass about that for a couple weeks and just dealt with the meltdowns until he finally realized I was serious, and now he's much better about it. And I don't have to get upset because those are Just The Rules(tm).
Mine's younger than yours, so YMMV.
posted by TallulahBankhead at 1:45 PM on February 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Moral of the story: do not get in a battle of wills with a toddler.
Our new rule is that after I've asked you to pick up a toy, if you haven't done it or are too tired or you "caaaaaaaaaan't", I will pick them up and put them AWAY (preferably in a conspicuous place where he can see it but not reach it) for a day. As in, no playing with them for 24 hours.
I was a real hard ass about that for a couple weeks and just dealt with the meltdowns until he finally realized I was serious, and now he's much better about it. And I don't have to get upset because those are Just The Rules(tm).
Mine's younger than yours, so YMMV.
posted by TallulahBankhead at 1:45 PM on February 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Since some people suggested a cleanup song, I thought I'd link my favorite such song.
posted by mendel at 1:56 PM on February 5, 2012
posted by mendel at 1:56 PM on February 5, 2012
Natural consequences work better than artificial rewards.
This is a false dichotomy. Rewards and positive reinforcement do not have to be "artificial," and if they are, there is no reason why natural consequences cannot also be incorporated into a behavioral management plan. Parents and caregivers do not have to choose.
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 3:15 PM on February 5, 2012
This is a false dichotomy. Rewards and positive reinforcement do not have to be "artificial," and if they are, there is no reason why natural consequences cannot also be incorporated into a behavioral management plan. Parents and caregivers do not have to choose.
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 3:15 PM on February 5, 2012
You seem to be doing all the obvious stuff right, so I'll just note two things about how it works in my house:
1. Regular room cleaning is a Sunday night ritual for her, and when she's done she gets her allowance.
2. my kid knows that I mean it when I tell her that any toys left on the floor are going in the trash.
3. I actively resist the accumulation of more "stuff" - you can't always win this one but we try hard. The more stuff, the more mess, the more pain.
It mostly works.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:12 PM on February 5, 2012
1. Regular room cleaning is a Sunday night ritual for her, and when she's done she gets her allowance.
2. my kid knows that I mean it when I tell her that any toys left on the floor are going in the trash.
3. I actively resist the accumulation of more "stuff" - you can't always win this one but we try hard. The more stuff, the more mess, the more pain.
It mostly works.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:12 PM on February 5, 2012
Oh, man, I had the same problem of fighting and crying and yelling when my daughter was about that age. She always ended up feeling miserable and like a failure and then I did, too.
Someone once made an off-hand mark to me when talking about her little brothers and how one day her mother realized she had to teach them how to clean up their rooms. That stuck with me.
The other thing was at a certain point I realized that she didn't have a long enough attention span to clean her whole room to the point of actually being tidy nor did she get that kind of jolt of satisfaction that I get when I finally have everything in the house all tidied up. I relaxed my standards, a lot.
At 5 1/2, it's not realistic to expect her to be able to actually get her room fully tidied up, in my opinion. The goal is to instill the habit and teach responsibility. So, I tried to give her manageable jobs, and at 5, honestly never made her clean for longer than 7-8 minutes. But I also never cleaned up for her in her presence. I did all kinds of deep cleaning and rearranging when she was out of the house, though. Because (a) I just didn't think she was capable of it yet but (b) I didn't want her to think that I would be picking up any slack. She didn't even ever notice that I'd tidied in her absence. Seriously, I just don't think they care about a tidy room at that age.
Now that she's older (9) I expect her to actually keep her room livable. It doesn't have to be Better Homes & Gardens. She has a desk that is always a mess but the last time I was on her to clean it up she pointed to my desk and, let's face it, she had a point.
Things that help:
- Stay on top of the mess throughout the day. Insist that whatever she's playing with be put away before the next thing comes out. Take your tantrums on an instalment plan!
- A place for everything and everything in it's place. *gag* But seriously, if something doesn't have a place, either make a place for it, or get rid of it. I rotate little-used toys out of her room and into a downstairs closet. If after a while she doesn't ask for it, I give it away.
- I like a little logic in my cleaning. Things are put away in bins that are categorized. So when she gets a new thing (her birthday is tomorrow, there will be new things) I ask her to think about where it should go. "Does it belong with technology or art supplies? With games or with dolls?" I'm trying to sell tidying as a retrieval system: if you know where you put it, you'll be able to find it later. It works for her because she also loves to categorize and make arbitrary distinctions.
- My kid responds well to a Post-it note with a list of things to do. She especially loves it if it has check boxes she can tick off when she is done.
- I'm open to letting her clean on her schedule, within reason. Today is a good example. She had friends sleep over last night and I warned her before they left that if they didn't start cleaning soon, she would be stuck with the whole mess herself once they were gone. She said she'd rather play with them and clean by herself later. Fair enough--I also hate doing dishes when I have company over. I knew that was going to be more work for me later in the day having to nag a little, but I didn't think it was unreasonable. And then I let her clean it up in a few small chunks over the course of the day. Basically, I try not to get locked into a battle about CLEAN UP YOUR ROOM RIGHT NOW BECAUSE I SAID SO THAT'S WHY.
Courage! This too shall pass.
posted by looli at 5:36 PM on February 5, 2012
Someone once made an off-hand mark to me when talking about her little brothers and how one day her mother realized she had to teach them how to clean up their rooms. That stuck with me.
The other thing was at a certain point I realized that she didn't have a long enough attention span to clean her whole room to the point of actually being tidy nor did she get that kind of jolt of satisfaction that I get when I finally have everything in the house all tidied up. I relaxed my standards, a lot.
At 5 1/2, it's not realistic to expect her to be able to actually get her room fully tidied up, in my opinion. The goal is to instill the habit and teach responsibility. So, I tried to give her manageable jobs, and at 5, honestly never made her clean for longer than 7-8 minutes. But I also never cleaned up for her in her presence. I did all kinds of deep cleaning and rearranging when she was out of the house, though. Because (a) I just didn't think she was capable of it yet but (b) I didn't want her to think that I would be picking up any slack. She didn't even ever notice that I'd tidied in her absence. Seriously, I just don't think they care about a tidy room at that age.
Now that she's older (9) I expect her to actually keep her room livable. It doesn't have to be Better Homes & Gardens. She has a desk that is always a mess but the last time I was on her to clean it up she pointed to my desk and, let's face it, she had a point.
Things that help:
- Stay on top of the mess throughout the day. Insist that whatever she's playing with be put away before the next thing comes out. Take your tantrums on an instalment plan!
- A place for everything and everything in it's place. *gag* But seriously, if something doesn't have a place, either make a place for it, or get rid of it. I rotate little-used toys out of her room and into a downstairs closet. If after a while she doesn't ask for it, I give it away.
- I like a little logic in my cleaning. Things are put away in bins that are categorized. So when she gets a new thing (her birthday is tomorrow, there will be new things) I ask her to think about where it should go. "Does it belong with technology or art supplies? With games or with dolls?" I'm trying to sell tidying as a retrieval system: if you know where you put it, you'll be able to find it later. It works for her because she also loves to categorize and make arbitrary distinctions.
- My kid responds well to a Post-it note with a list of things to do. She especially loves it if it has check boxes she can tick off when she is done.
- I'm open to letting her clean on her schedule, within reason. Today is a good example. She had friends sleep over last night and I warned her before they left that if they didn't start cleaning soon, she would be stuck with the whole mess herself once they were gone. She said she'd rather play with them and clean by herself later. Fair enough--I also hate doing dishes when I have company over. I knew that was going to be more work for me later in the day having to nag a little, but I didn't think it was unreasonable. And then I let her clean it up in a few small chunks over the course of the day. Basically, I try not to get locked into a battle about CLEAN UP YOUR ROOM RIGHT NOW BECAUSE I SAID SO THAT'S WHY.
Courage! This too shall pass.
posted by looli at 5:36 PM on February 5, 2012
Natural consequences work better than artificial rewards.
This is a false dichotomy. Rewards and positive reinforcement do not have to be "artificial," and if they are, there is no reason why natural consequences cannot also be incorporated into a behavioral management plan. Parents and caregivers do not have to choose.
Of course they don't have to be "artificial" - perhaps I chose the wrong word there. I see what you're saying, based on your answer, Uniformitarianism Now! - and I'm not authoritarian about this, just matter-of-fact now, because I don't have the energy for drama about room cleaning, and spent years working through this to get to this point. And they can both be incorporated, depending on the temperament and family. Clean-up songs like kittenmarlowe's work wonderfully in conjunction with the system and routine that's been set up in schools and daycares. But in the case of personal room-cleaning, or chores, there comes a moment when the kid challenges the reward's value. Or, the adult doesn't feel like jumping through hoops to get a kid to do what just plain needs to be done. We did all that too, but three years later, we're more about trying to pace her for the long haul. If I had known what I'm now offering three years ago, I would have saved myself a lot of breath. It's not the only way, but as succinct as SMPA's answer is, I was just trying to explain the "why" as I researched and read and practiced.
As well, as it is often suggested that a kid earns a reward for completing a chore chart and we attempted pretty much everything everyone's suggested over there years, I'll go on to say that there are a few scenarios that we've been through, having done that, that can play out such as "I changed my mind", "I don't want that any more" and "I already got the thing I wanted, I don't have to do this any more" and "I've decided I like to sleep in every day more than I want to go there on Saturday." The poster's child is already making this into a power struggle. My kid only got better at this as time went by. Since the question wasn't just about how to get hollyanderbody's daughter to change her room, and she's already doing well at organizing, I tried to answer accordingly; and I hope I can help, hollyanderbody, about changing the framework so that there's not so much opportunity for resistance and more about managing the conflict. And doing this without setting up another system, because that's more work. Finding something that gives the mom a break (because I have been brittle and frustrated and teary too) and minimizes the struggle, and yet doesn't give the kid an option not to clean her room is hard.
If it's a personal responsibility, a habit of neatness you're working to develop over time, removing the temporary rewards and upping the expectations also mitigates how they'll soon learn to test the reward system even if they choose to participate in it. "Can I only do this much and still get..." or "Can I start fresh next week" or "I don't feel like having a dance party." Or, in our case just today: "If I make it look like I clean my room really well, and offer to do lots of extra stuff, my mom won't find the candy wrappers at the bottom of the toy bin, between the bed and the wall, and under the bed for a week or so." Lots of things work sometimes. I played at this for years, and read so many things and covered this with so many friends. When we said "We're tired of this" and made tidying up merely an expectation and a reasonable accomplishment, it stopped being a big "thing" in our household. The more we used carrots on sticks and the more I contorted myself to get her to do this very basic thing, the more conflict we had and the more we engaged in a power struggle about the state of her room. I apologize for being over-zealous in my response, but I was the crazy mom showing my child images of Where Children Sleep to get her to realize that she really didn't have it all that bad! Good luck, everyone, with this.
posted by peagood at 6:55 PM on February 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
www.housefairy.org
Please go to that website and consider it.
Also-- her room should never be more than 5 minutes from clean. If the two of you pick up for two minutes every time you leave the room, you'd be in good shape.
And-- if you stop to consider your day, there are probably a lot of times throughout the day when you think "ugh, I don't feel like doing that right now" or "I'm too tired, I'll do it tomorrow." not so different from your daughter, except you don't have a parent telling you that these excuses are not legitimate.
www.flylady.com says "your house didn't get dirty overnight, and it won't get clean overnight." you could decide the same with her room. "hey kiddo, you and I are going to clean your room for 5 minutes. One minute for every year! (when mommy cleans, she cleans for 33 minutes!) but here's the deal. When the five minutes is over, we're walking away even if it's not all done. I promise. Do you want to learn to set the timer?". And then do it. Walk away after 5 minutes and do another 5 minutes tomorrow. It probably won't even take 5 minutes.
This isn't about "responsibility" or "consequences" and unless you use checklists and a chore chart that's visible to your daughter, you'll always be battling.
posted by vitabellosi at 7:06 PM on February 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Please go to that website and consider it.
Also-- her room should never be more than 5 minutes from clean. If the two of you pick up for two minutes every time you leave the room, you'd be in good shape.
And-- if you stop to consider your day, there are probably a lot of times throughout the day when you think "ugh, I don't feel like doing that right now" or "I'm too tired, I'll do it tomorrow." not so different from your daughter, except you don't have a parent telling you that these excuses are not legitimate.
www.flylady.com says "your house didn't get dirty overnight, and it won't get clean overnight." you could decide the same with her room. "hey kiddo, you and I are going to clean your room for 5 minutes. One minute for every year! (when mommy cleans, she cleans for 33 minutes!) but here's the deal. When the five minutes is over, we're walking away even if it's not all done. I promise. Do you want to learn to set the timer?". And then do it. Walk away after 5 minutes and do another 5 minutes tomorrow. It probably won't even take 5 minutes.
This isn't about "responsibility" or "consequences" and unless you use checklists and a chore chart that's visible to your daughter, you'll always be battling.
posted by vitabellosi at 7:06 PM on February 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
With my almost-5 year old, I never ask him to "clean his room," but periodically I say, "Hey, I stepped on a toy. Please pick up all the toys off the floor and put them in this box before you come down for lunch," or "Hey, don't forget that before we start doing something new, we need to put this away." This isn't a conscious strategy, it tends to be how I clean, but it does have the effect of making him understand that we should keep things tidy in general without having him feel like he was an overwhelming chore to tackle on his own.
posted by chickenmagazine at 7:53 PM on February 5, 2012
posted by chickenmagazine at 7:53 PM on February 5, 2012
We started a points system. Our 8 year old is a terrible mess maker, so she needs three points for a dollar, and she can't spend her point until she has 20 dollars. Points are given out for small things.
Pick the dirty clothes up and take them to the laundry - one point, Lego back in the box, one point. So a clean room gets her about 5 or six points.
Bad behaviour means points are deducted.
We help her out as well. You could do this and earn a point, or I can do it and you won't earn.
We actively dispose of shit/broken/poor quality toys out.
posted by mattoxic at 8:36 PM on February 5, 2012
Pick the dirty clothes up and take them to the laundry - one point, Lego back in the box, one point. So a clean room gets her about 5 or six points.
Bad behaviour means points are deducted.
We help her out as well. You could do this and earn a point, or I can do it and you won't earn.
We actively dispose of shit/broken/poor quality toys out.
posted by mattoxic at 8:36 PM on February 5, 2012
I was your child growing up. I still have real shame issues around cleaning my room.
I'm not trying to make you feel guilty or anything, I just want to let you know that (although it seems kind of silly and out of proportion) this is the only real area I have any resentment towards my mom. And my mom is fantastic, and we have a great relationship.
I would always clean my room, to the best of my ability, and then feel really anxious, because I *knew* it was not going to be clean to the level she expected. And then she'd be mad because I did a half job of it, and take me through the rest, and I would end up crying and feeling shitty. Looking back on it now, I just don't understand how me having a neater, cleaner room was worth making me cry and feel shitty.
And I know that my mom probably didn't realize just how much it affected me, and would be horrified to find out now. But some kids really don't see the mess, or understand how to clean it up.
Some background details for me: I have mild to moderate ADHD, and non-verbal learning disorder. Organization is still a struggle. I don't understand it, and will always be kind of messy. And that's ok. And I'm sure there are several other conditions, or just personality types, that have serious problems with the brains executive functioning.
I understand that it's important to teach good habits. But please, please find a way to go about this that isn't getting really angry, and your kid crying.
posted by f_panda at 8:00 AM on February 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'm not trying to make you feel guilty or anything, I just want to let you know that (although it seems kind of silly and out of proportion) this is the only real area I have any resentment towards my mom. And my mom is fantastic, and we have a great relationship.
I would always clean my room, to the best of my ability, and then feel really anxious, because I *knew* it was not going to be clean to the level she expected. And then she'd be mad because I did a half job of it, and take me through the rest, and I would end up crying and feeling shitty. Looking back on it now, I just don't understand how me having a neater, cleaner room was worth making me cry and feel shitty.
And I know that my mom probably didn't realize just how much it affected me, and would be horrified to find out now. But some kids really don't see the mess, or understand how to clean it up.
Some background details for me: I have mild to moderate ADHD, and non-verbal learning disorder. Organization is still a struggle. I don't understand it, and will always be kind of messy. And that's ok. And I'm sure there are several other conditions, or just personality types, that have serious problems with the brains executive functioning.
I understand that it's important to teach good habits. But please, please find a way to go about this that isn't getting really angry, and your kid crying.
posted by f_panda at 8:00 AM on February 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
Sorry to double post, but this question hits a really weird, close to home spot for me.
Also, is your kid generally resistent to chores, or do they tend to put in a good faith effort? If they are always trying to get out of doing stuff around the house, I think it's a much different issue than if they try but have a few hang ups.
And this may not be the case, but pay attention to the "I'm too tired" excuse. I've had a lot of problems with fatigue since I was born, and when faced with the seemingly insurmountable task of cleaning my room, I would feel absolutely drained of energy.
Another useful thing to keep in mind is that small kids have very little control over their lives. It's just the nature of being a tiny little dependent being. Sometimes, I think that a kid will decide that their room is *their* space that the can control, and be resentful at a parent coming in an taking over this little bastion of independence. I'm pretty sure I felt that to a degree.
Anyway, I just wanted to give you a look at a kids perspective of the issue. You know your child best, but just keep in mind that this might not be disobedience or trying to get out of a chore.
And my room is a huge mess right now, but my clothes are clean, I can find everything, and the only negative impact on my life is mild inconvenience.
posted by f_panda at 8:14 AM on February 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
Also, is your kid generally resistent to chores, or do they tend to put in a good faith effort? If they are always trying to get out of doing stuff around the house, I think it's a much different issue than if they try but have a few hang ups.
And this may not be the case, but pay attention to the "I'm too tired" excuse. I've had a lot of problems with fatigue since I was born, and when faced with the seemingly insurmountable task of cleaning my room, I would feel absolutely drained of energy.
Another useful thing to keep in mind is that small kids have very little control over their lives. It's just the nature of being a tiny little dependent being. Sometimes, I think that a kid will decide that their room is *their* space that the can control, and be resentful at a parent coming in an taking over this little bastion of independence. I'm pretty sure I felt that to a degree.
Anyway, I just wanted to give you a look at a kids perspective of the issue. You know your child best, but just keep in mind that this might not be disobedience or trying to get out of a chore.
And my room is a huge mess right now, but my clothes are clean, I can find everything, and the only negative impact on my life is mild inconvenience.
posted by f_panda at 8:14 AM on February 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
nthing cleanup song idea. It's fun and it breaks the task up into manageable bits. I say "Let's clean up everything we can while this song plays, then we'll stop." 2 minutes and 43 seconds of cleaning everyday is not that bad. Also, I clean my room while she cleans her room, so she sees I'm not asking her to do anything I'm not also doing myself. Also also, I let her pick the song, and we compare at the end of it to see who got the most stuff clean. This has the added benefit of getting her to list what she did (I put my dolls on the shelf, my dress-up clothes in the drawer), which reinforces how she's supposed to clean (i.e., where stuff goes).
My 5.5 year old is actually a champion room-cleaner, though. Now if I could just get her to agree to EVER wear pants.
posted by staggering termagant at 11:45 AM on February 7, 2012
My 5.5 year old is actually a champion room-cleaner, though. Now if I could just get her to agree to EVER wear pants.
posted by staggering termagant at 11:45 AM on February 7, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
Even though I get (very) frustrated when they won't clean, it's one of the things I remember most from my childhood, a sense of disorder having grown so complicated I could barely look at it, let alone clean it all up. I wish my folks had taught me how to structure the job better!
Depending on how you've got things set up, this might also be a chance to involve her in organizing ("Which shelf should we start putting these on? Should we buy a different kind of toybox?"), or even in getting rid of a few things--when my now-6-year-old turned 5, we verrrry slowly and carefully began weeding out "baby toys" that she felt she was too old to play with, which helped free up some room. I won't say the kids really enjoy taking a few of their toys to Goodwill, but they do understand that if new toys are coming into the house, then they have to make some choices on what to keep.
Also, if it helps with your sanity, "I'm too TIII-IIIRED" and its variants are a constant refrain from my kids right now. So, you're not alone in having to hear that!
posted by mittens at 10:11 AM on February 5, 2012 [12 favorites]