All take and no give. What to do?
January 15, 2012 8:43 AM Subscribe
My sibling ignores me. Should I ignore her in return?
My sister never calls, writes or visits. She has young children whom I send birthday and christmas gifts to. At most I receive a short email of thanks written by her or her partner but 'signed' (not really) by the kids. It's been nearly 20yrs since she has visited my home, or met my friends, or shown much interest in my life. I'm stuck, emotionally, in my feelings about this.
My sister is 6yrs younger and was essentially raised as an only child as I was forced out of home at 16 by an abusive parent. She was not abused either emotionally or physically as I was. On the contrary, she received many things - education, gifts, support - that I did not. She came to live with me as a young adult for a few years and I helped her all I could, including financial support while she finished college. If you looked inside her house today you would see many things I have given her over the years, some quite valuable. I, on the other hand, have a photo taken five years ago of her kids and that's it.
She is quite conservative, has a career, a stay-at-home spouse, and is very self-important and self-focused. The only time we see each other is when I visit our mother once a year who lives adjacent to her. During those meetings she is oh-so-nice, so much so that is feels patronizing. Recently she met one of my many close friends at a function and expressed surprise: "I didn't know The Fish had friends!" My friend was so surprised by this comment she didn't talk further with her.
What's bugging me now is the lack of response I receive when trying to communicate with her. After the last two line christmas thanks email I responded with a request for a photo or two of her my niece and nephews. It's been weeks now and no response.
Some years ago I was on the verge of a breakdown trying to care for our elderly (and abusive to me) mother during a long drawn out recuperation. When I asked my sister if I could call her for emotional support she denied me to my face: "you chose to help her, you deal with it" was her response. Now that my sister lives next door to our mother she uses her as she can - laundry, shopping, kid watching etc - but rarely even visits her in person. My mother occasionally visits for dinner because the kids love having her there (she's a great story book reader) but besides dinner itself, my sister gives my mother nothing but takes a lot. "Ooh, nice sheets Mom, I need new sheets, can I have them?"
All take no give hurts. I find myself waking in the night thinking about the unfairness. My partner has siblings who will travel thousands of miles for a surprise birthday visit, or call for a chat or a joke and he can't understand my sister's attitude. In some ways I feel it reflects badly on me.
I feel like I should stop sending gifts, stop trying to get a response and just accept the fact that my sister neither likes nor respects me. But this is hard, especially as we look and sound alike so I often catch glimpses of my sister when I see myself in the mirror or hear myself on a recording. I also worry that if I stop sending gifts my niece and nephews will forget I exist.
I used to think we were friends. I've helped her a lot in life. But now I just feel rejected. What is the healthiest thing I can do in both the short and long term to alleviate the distress and grief I feel about my sister's actions?
My sister never calls, writes or visits. She has young children whom I send birthday and christmas gifts to. At most I receive a short email of thanks written by her or her partner but 'signed' (not really) by the kids. It's been nearly 20yrs since she has visited my home, or met my friends, or shown much interest in my life. I'm stuck, emotionally, in my feelings about this.
My sister is 6yrs younger and was essentially raised as an only child as I was forced out of home at 16 by an abusive parent. She was not abused either emotionally or physically as I was. On the contrary, she received many things - education, gifts, support - that I did not. She came to live with me as a young adult for a few years and I helped her all I could, including financial support while she finished college. If you looked inside her house today you would see many things I have given her over the years, some quite valuable. I, on the other hand, have a photo taken five years ago of her kids and that's it.
She is quite conservative, has a career, a stay-at-home spouse, and is very self-important and self-focused. The only time we see each other is when I visit our mother once a year who lives adjacent to her. During those meetings she is oh-so-nice, so much so that is feels patronizing. Recently she met one of my many close friends at a function and expressed surprise: "I didn't know The Fish had friends!" My friend was so surprised by this comment she didn't talk further with her.
What's bugging me now is the lack of response I receive when trying to communicate with her. After the last two line christmas thanks email I responded with a request for a photo or two of her my niece and nephews. It's been weeks now and no response.
Some years ago I was on the verge of a breakdown trying to care for our elderly (and abusive to me) mother during a long drawn out recuperation. When I asked my sister if I could call her for emotional support she denied me to my face: "you chose to help her, you deal with it" was her response. Now that my sister lives next door to our mother she uses her as she can - laundry, shopping, kid watching etc - but rarely even visits her in person. My mother occasionally visits for dinner because the kids love having her there (she's a great story book reader) but besides dinner itself, my sister gives my mother nothing but takes a lot. "Ooh, nice sheets Mom, I need new sheets, can I have them?"
All take no give hurts. I find myself waking in the night thinking about the unfairness. My partner has siblings who will travel thousands of miles for a surprise birthday visit, or call for a chat or a joke and he can't understand my sister's attitude. In some ways I feel it reflects badly on me.
I feel like I should stop sending gifts, stop trying to get a response and just accept the fact that my sister neither likes nor respects me. But this is hard, especially as we look and sound alike so I often catch glimpses of my sister when I see myself in the mirror or hear myself on a recording. I also worry that if I stop sending gifts my niece and nephews will forget I exist.
I used to think we were friends. I've helped her a lot in life. But now I just feel rejected. What is the healthiest thing I can do in both the short and long term to alleviate the distress and grief I feel about my sister's actions?
You can't change her or how she acts. If you want to keep sending gifts to the kids that's nice but you don't have to. You are never going to have your actions reciprocated so you have to let it (and maybe her) go.
posted by bquarters at 8:55 AM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by bquarters at 8:55 AM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
Your sister's behavior reflects only on her, not you.
If you were my friend, I'd tell you just stop trying for more with her. She's shown you who she is - believe her. You don't describe her very flatteringly -- would you want more of a relationship with her if she were a friend, not a sibling?
Be civil, be cordial, but set boundaries for yourself so you stop hoping for anything more.
To alleviate the distress....time. More time, and allow yourself to grieve this relationship that was never what you wanted.
If it helps, there are a lot of people with similar sibling relationships. It happens. That's why being an adult and building your own "family" around you of your choosing is such a blessing.
posted by pantarei70 at 8:57 AM on January 15, 2012 [15 favorites]
If you were my friend, I'd tell you just stop trying for more with her. She's shown you who she is - believe her. You don't describe her very flatteringly -- would you want more of a relationship with her if she were a friend, not a sibling?
Be civil, be cordial, but set boundaries for yourself so you stop hoping for anything more.
To alleviate the distress....time. More time, and allow yourself to grieve this relationship that was never what you wanted.
If it helps, there are a lot of people with similar sibling relationships. It happens. That's why being an adult and building your own "family" around you of your choosing is such a blessing.
posted by pantarei70 at 8:57 AM on January 15, 2012 [15 favorites]
Have you ever spoken with her about this? The types of things you're saying here - "I used to think we were friends, but now I feel rejected" - seem like things that would be worth saying aloud to your sister before cutting your losses. She really should be behaving better towards you without such a discussion, but if she's as self-centered as you describe then maybe it's never even occurred to her that you're hurt or would like a more robust level of interaction.
Sure, it's possible that this won't change anything and that you'll ultimately have to come to terms with having a sister who is more of a (very) casual acquaintance than a friend, but if it were me, I'd want to be sure I've expressed myself clearly first. Maybe it won't make a difference but at least you'll know you've tried.
posted by DingoMutt at 8:59 AM on January 15, 2012 [6 favorites]
Sure, it's possible that this won't change anything and that you'll ultimately have to come to terms with having a sister who is more of a (very) casual acquaintance than a friend, but if it were me, I'd want to be sure I've expressed myself clearly first. Maybe it won't make a difference but at least you'll know you've tried.
posted by DingoMutt at 8:59 AM on January 15, 2012 [6 favorites]
Has she always been like this? Were you close as kids?
I have to confess that I am a *terrible* sibling/friend/child right now.
I have two elementary-school aged kids with learning disabilities. One of them has crazy sports schedule. Couple that with my health problems and most days I can barely get through he bare minimum that it takes just to keep the house/kids running. I sometimes take days to answer simple emails. Sometimes I answer with a short line.
I have never visited my brother's apartment in NYC. I don't know many of his friends.
We are 7 years apart in age so I left for college when he was 11. I love my brother and would do anything to help him if he needed help -- but other than hanging out at my parent's occasionally we don't talk or email much. I would hope that if he wanted more of a relationship with me he would talk to me before writing me off...
Before writing her off, I would have a conversation with her. She may not mean to be blowing you off -- she may just be so overwhelmed by running her life that she doesn't have any energy left for any other relationships. Or maybe she is a self-centered, selfish ****. :-)
posted by LittleMy at 9:07 AM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
I have to confess that I am a *terrible* sibling/friend/child right now.
I have two elementary-school aged kids with learning disabilities. One of them has crazy sports schedule. Couple that with my health problems and most days I can barely get through he bare minimum that it takes just to keep the house/kids running. I sometimes take days to answer simple emails. Sometimes I answer with a short line.
I have never visited my brother's apartment in NYC. I don't know many of his friends.
We are 7 years apart in age so I left for college when he was 11. I love my brother and would do anything to help him if he needed help -- but other than hanging out at my parent's occasionally we don't talk or email much. I would hope that if he wanted more of a relationship with me he would talk to me before writing me off...
Before writing her off, I would have a conversation with her. She may not mean to be blowing you off -- she may just be so overwhelmed by running her life that she doesn't have any energy left for any other relationships. Or maybe she is a self-centered, selfish ****. :-)
posted by LittleMy at 9:07 AM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
I apologize if I'm about to make a bunch of wrong assumptions, but your question really struck a chord with me, and so I'm going to say what's on my mind, and then you can decide whether or not any of it is true for you.
First, you don't actually seem to like your sister very much either. The way you talk about her ("patronizing," "self-important," "takes a lot") tells me that you have a ton of anger and resentment towards her. Have you ever really dealt with your feelings about her escaping all of the abuse that you suffered? Because I get the sense that you resent the hell out of her, and if I can read that from a couple of paragraphs, I bet she knows it too, and I bet it makes her really uncomfortable.
On that point, I wonder whether you might have a skewed picture of what her childhood was like. It would be virtually impossible for the same parents who were so emotionally and physically abusive to you to have been model parents to her, giving her the unconditional love and support that a child needs while being monsters to you. I'm not saying that you weren't abused or that they were secretly beating her. But even as they were giving her all those monetary gifts, I bet there was a lot of emotional crap that she went through that might not have been immediately apparent to you. The fact that her relationship with your mother now consists of your mother watching the kids and your sister getting free bed sheets tells me that all was not right in that household after you were gone, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if she's responding to some serious emotional abuse of a different sort than you experienced.
Everything you've told us is consistent with a scenario in which your sister had a deeply troubled childhood and is now, as an adult, trying to find ways to keep it from affecting her children. She has drawn a boundary that she can't help your mother and is only having the bare minimum relationship necessary to give her kids a grandma, and while that could be because she's a selfish jerk, it could also be because any further involvement would traumatize you. She doesn't communicate with you regularly, and while that could be because she's self-absorbed or dislikes you, it could also be because she's afraid of getting hurt and nervous and doesn't really know how to interact with you given what your family has been through.
Your whole family, like a lot of families, has more going on than meets the eye. If I were you, I'd do some serious thinking, either alone or with a therapist, about your family dynamics, and see if you can see things from your sister's point of view. You may never be able to have the family you dream of. But you may be able to make peace with the fact that you're in a situation where a lot of very troubled people are doing the best they can.
posted by decathecting at 9:14 AM on January 15, 2012 [64 favorites]
First, you don't actually seem to like your sister very much either. The way you talk about her ("patronizing," "self-important," "takes a lot") tells me that you have a ton of anger and resentment towards her. Have you ever really dealt with your feelings about her escaping all of the abuse that you suffered? Because I get the sense that you resent the hell out of her, and if I can read that from a couple of paragraphs, I bet she knows it too, and I bet it makes her really uncomfortable.
On that point, I wonder whether you might have a skewed picture of what her childhood was like. It would be virtually impossible for the same parents who were so emotionally and physically abusive to you to have been model parents to her, giving her the unconditional love and support that a child needs while being monsters to you. I'm not saying that you weren't abused or that they were secretly beating her. But even as they were giving her all those monetary gifts, I bet there was a lot of emotional crap that she went through that might not have been immediately apparent to you. The fact that her relationship with your mother now consists of your mother watching the kids and your sister getting free bed sheets tells me that all was not right in that household after you were gone, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if she's responding to some serious emotional abuse of a different sort than you experienced.
Everything you've told us is consistent with a scenario in which your sister had a deeply troubled childhood and is now, as an adult, trying to find ways to keep it from affecting her children. She has drawn a boundary that she can't help your mother and is only having the bare minimum relationship necessary to give her kids a grandma, and while that could be because she's a selfish jerk, it could also be because any further involvement would traumatize you. She doesn't communicate with you regularly, and while that could be because she's self-absorbed or dislikes you, it could also be because she's afraid of getting hurt and nervous and doesn't really know how to interact with you given what your family has been through.
Your whole family, like a lot of families, has more going on than meets the eye. If I were you, I'd do some serious thinking, either alone or with a therapist, about your family dynamics, and see if you can see things from your sister's point of view. You may never be able to have the family you dream of. But you may be able to make peace with the fact that you're in a situation where a lot of very troubled people are doing the best they can.
posted by decathecting at 9:14 AM on January 15, 2012 [64 favorites]
Stay in the kids lives. Send them stuff. Call and ask to talk with them from time to time.
Wouldn't worry about sis.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:15 AM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
Wouldn't worry about sis.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:15 AM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
I would not assume she did not suffer pain when growing up and even now. I think she has some strict coping mechanisms in place, to keep her from falling completely apart. They are not fair though, especially on you, but they are the best she can do for now. I would keep interacting like you do, not push for more and just wait. I think she will eventually mature more and change slowly, events likely to help would be her kids growing older, moving away from your mother, or divorcing. Remember that she might also be following her husband's wishes, and he might be afraid of her falling back into the mess that was your family growing up. Also that you might symbolize something she hates without you having done anything wrong, like a kid that a mother cannot look at because it looks like her deceased husband. I urge patience and just letting her know you are around if she needs.
posted by meepmeow at 9:29 AM on January 15, 2012
posted by meepmeow at 9:29 AM on January 15, 2012
I wouldn't outright reject taking a generous perspective on the reason for your sister's actions. I agree with decathecting. It's possible she's dealing with own negative experiences and putting up some protective barrier. I can imagine that with even living with the personalities of abusive parents, she might have felt some abandonment when you left, while struggling with not feeling fully justified in those feelings. The gifts to her growing up could have been a form of control on the part of your parents.
The niceness to the point of seeming patronizing shows some desire not to be mean, and perhaps an attempt at compassion however false, but is possibly revealing of something sadder behind a facade. Have you tried taking an interest in her and showing an interest in her life, apart from her kids and apart from your need for her to take an interest in your life?
posted by waterandrock at 9:33 AM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
The niceness to the point of seeming patronizing shows some desire not to be mean, and perhaps an attempt at compassion however false, but is possibly revealing of something sadder behind a facade. Have you tried taking an interest in her and showing an interest in her life, apart from her kids and apart from your need for her to take an interest in your life?
posted by waterandrock at 9:33 AM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
It's a sad, hard thing when our sibling relationships don't pan out the way we'd like them to. I've always wanted to be friends with my sister, but she's never been keen. It's only in the past few years that I've given up on reaching out and trying to stay connected. ...and we came from much better family circumstances than yours; these things happen.
I'd suggest counseling to help you work through these feelings, because I know being your situation would put me in a world of hurt.
posted by smirkette at 9:34 AM on January 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'd suggest counseling to help you work through these feelings, because I know being your situation would put me in a world of hurt.
posted by smirkette at 9:34 AM on January 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
I also worry that if I stop sending gifts my niece and nephews will forget I exist.
Are you sure she's giving them the gifts from you? Because from the way you present her in the rest of your question, it sounds like she might be the type of person to claim gift-giver-ship.
Even if that's not the case, time with kids is much more important in bonding than occasional gifts. I don't say this to be mean, but so that you aren't so emotionally wrapped up in stopping the stream of gifts part, which I agree with you that you should do.
Some years ago I was on the verge of a breakdown trying to care for our elderly (and abusive to me) mother during a long drawn out recuperation. When I asked my sister if I could call her for emotional support she denied me to my face
This is the part of the question where I have sympathy for your sister's actions. I try to limit my exposure to [crazy] as much as possible for my own mental health. If someone else voluntarily delves into [crazy] and then tries, however well-meaning, to drag me in as well, I shut that down. It is just one possibility, but I think you should consider that your sister (and, frankly, you) had good reason to not want to be involved in this example.
I was forced out of home at 16 by an abusive parent. She was not abused either emotionally or physically as I was.
Since you weren't there, that means you may not know for sure whether or not she was ever abused. Again, it may help explain the whole caretaker-support issue above and possibly rationalize a little her behavior toward your mother. Just something to consider.
Regardless, in other areas it sounds like she's acting somewhat spoiled and irresponsible. I think you should stop supplying her with items, but I think you should try to maintain contact. I'd start with emailing or phoning once a month (and you could ask to independently email/talk to your niece and nephews) and you can up or lower the frequency depending on how she responds. Don't just email/phone requests from her, but update her on your life and ask questions of hers. Be genuinely interested in the answers, and don't dismiss her life issues as unimportant. If she holds out for gifts before responding, I would explain to her that you now feel so distant from her that gifts don't seem appropriate right now but that you hope some time down the line to regain that type of close friendship.
All take no give does hurt, and I'm sorry. I hope she comes around.
**Like decathecting suggests, your view of her might be colored by resentment, and that is something you might unpack in therapy, but I still think my above advice could be used in conjunction.
posted by vegartanipla at 9:37 AM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
Are you sure she's giving them the gifts from you? Because from the way you present her in the rest of your question, it sounds like she might be the type of person to claim gift-giver-ship.
Even if that's not the case, time with kids is much more important in bonding than occasional gifts. I don't say this to be mean, but so that you aren't so emotionally wrapped up in stopping the stream of gifts part, which I agree with you that you should do.
Some years ago I was on the verge of a breakdown trying to care for our elderly (and abusive to me) mother during a long drawn out recuperation. When I asked my sister if I could call her for emotional support she denied me to my face
This is the part of the question where I have sympathy for your sister's actions. I try to limit my exposure to [crazy] as much as possible for my own mental health. If someone else voluntarily delves into [crazy] and then tries, however well-meaning, to drag me in as well, I shut that down. It is just one possibility, but I think you should consider that your sister (and, frankly, you) had good reason to not want to be involved in this example.
I was forced out of home at 16 by an abusive parent. She was not abused either emotionally or physically as I was.
Since you weren't there, that means you may not know for sure whether or not she was ever abused. Again, it may help explain the whole caretaker-support issue above and possibly rationalize a little her behavior toward your mother. Just something to consider.
Regardless, in other areas it sounds like she's acting somewhat spoiled and irresponsible. I think you should stop supplying her with items, but I think you should try to maintain contact. I'd start with emailing or phoning once a month (and you could ask to independently email/talk to your niece and nephews) and you can up or lower the frequency depending on how she responds. Don't just email/phone requests from her, but update her on your life and ask questions of hers. Be genuinely interested in the answers, and don't dismiss her life issues as unimportant. If she holds out for gifts before responding, I would explain to her that you now feel so distant from her that gifts don't seem appropriate right now but that you hope some time down the line to regain that type of close friendship.
All take no give does hurt, and I'm sorry. I hope she comes around.
**Like decathecting suggests, your view of her might be colored by resentment, and that is something you might unpack in therapy, but I still think my above advice could be used in conjunction.
posted by vegartanipla at 9:37 AM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
I have a girl friend who has a similar problem with a sister. I feel like any suggestion that starts with "Well, if she was your friend, you would..." doesn't quite capture the agony she has over not having a proper relationship with her. To outsiders, it's like, who gives a shit, she's your sister. Wanting to be on the same page with her, but not being able to be must be very painful.
I'm an only child, but I can relate to how difficult it can be work on these relationships. There can be conversations about improving the family dynamic or clearing things up that are simply not had. You sound very passive when describing your relationship with your sister. Looking at all the things she does wrong. Not telling her how you feel about any of it. Maybe you're really upset and worried about what you might say.
Maybe go see a therapist and work out a way to talk to your sister about how badly your feelings have been hurt. Sending sweet emails and waiting for replies for weeks and waking up in a panic is no way to live. You can save the day by being really honest. Of course, you will meet some resistance. But like others have suggested, maybe there's something deeper going on. And if you can be honest with her without attacking her outright, maybe she'll open up to you down the road.
posted by phaedon at 9:38 AM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'm an only child, but I can relate to how difficult it can be work on these relationships. There can be conversations about improving the family dynamic or clearing things up that are simply not had. You sound very passive when describing your relationship with your sister. Looking at all the things she does wrong. Not telling her how you feel about any of it. Maybe you're really upset and worried about what you might say.
Maybe go see a therapist and work out a way to talk to your sister about how badly your feelings have been hurt. Sending sweet emails and waiting for replies for weeks and waking up in a panic is no way to live. You can save the day by being really honest. Of course, you will meet some resistance. But like others have suggested, maybe there's something deeper going on. And if you can be honest with her without attacking her outright, maybe she'll open up to you down the road.
posted by phaedon at 9:38 AM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
Only you can decide whether or not it's worth it to ignore your sister. Based on your post though, it doesn't seem like you want to ignore your sister despite your differences. It seems like you want a relationship with your sister and that has to start with a conversation about how you feel without coming across as accusatory. Have a heartfelt conversation, reminisce on a few memories, and let her know that you want to get to know each other as adults too.
There is the possibility that she does not want to maintain a relationship with you and if that's the case then I would recommend keeping a distance from her (just like she does with you). Be respectful of her when you see her during holidays and maintain contact with your nieces/nephews since it seems like family means a lot to you. I agree with what decathecting said. I know it hurts a lot, but she's probably in a lot of pain too based on your childhood experiences and although things may seem one way the reality is that the family dynamics more than likely remained dysfunctional even after you left.
Short term: write a letter to your sister and get your partner to look it over so that you can make sure that it comes across as heartfelt. Let your sister know in this letter that you want to develop a relationship with her because she matters to you and that you respect her decision either way, but you hope that she wants to maintain a relationship with you too.
Long term: seek therapy because of the family dynamics and past family experiences. Try to develop a better understanding of what your sister might have experienced either by directly asking her what things were like when you were told to leave or by trying to imagine what she has experienced.
posted by livinglearning at 9:46 AM on January 15, 2012
There is the possibility that she does not want to maintain a relationship with you and if that's the case then I would recommend keeping a distance from her (just like she does with you). Be respectful of her when you see her during holidays and maintain contact with your nieces/nephews since it seems like family means a lot to you. I agree with what decathecting said. I know it hurts a lot, but she's probably in a lot of pain too based on your childhood experiences and although things may seem one way the reality is that the family dynamics more than likely remained dysfunctional even after you left.
Short term: write a letter to your sister and get your partner to look it over so that you can make sure that it comes across as heartfelt. Let your sister know in this letter that you want to develop a relationship with her because she matters to you and that you respect her decision either way, but you hope that she wants to maintain a relationship with you too.
Long term: seek therapy because of the family dynamics and past family experiences. Try to develop a better understanding of what your sister might have experienced either by directly asking her what things were like when you were told to leave or by trying to imagine what she has experienced.
posted by livinglearning at 9:46 AM on January 15, 2012
I second decathecting- I come from a family that has had its fair share of weirdness, neglect and PROBLEMS (with a capital P)... and my little brother and older sister (in the states) are always trying to work things out and make good of things... but me and my older brother have just "left" left it all behind... he lives in Australia and I live in the UK, and I think part of that was being completely and utterly happy with being thousands of miles away from everyone else... and unless they want to buy a calling card- then communication is all on my terms, and I'm not interested in much of that, not because they're bad- but because it (the past) affected me so much that I want to leave it "there" and go on with my life. I know that might not help much, but I know I'm a shitty sister, and a shitty aunt- but I don't have anything to give them... there's just not fertile friendship soil, no matter how much its wanted.
posted by misspony at 9:46 AM on January 15, 2012
posted by misspony at 9:46 AM on January 15, 2012
Decathecting makes some excellent points -- there is always more than meets the eye.
posted by pantarei70 at 9:56 AM on January 15, 2012
posted by pantarei70 at 9:56 AM on January 15, 2012
The common denominator here is the mother - either there's another side to the "abusive" relationship here that we have not heard (but your sister has) or, the relationship really WAS abusive and your mother has fed your sister what she wants her to hear. In any case, it sounds to me like your sister has been alienated one way or another. That's what you have to work on - the reason for it, real or perceived.
posted by brownrd at 10:34 AM on January 15, 2012
posted by brownrd at 10:34 AM on January 15, 2012
"During those meetings she is oh-so-nice, so much so that is feels patronizing. Recently she met one of my many close friends at a function and expressed surprise: "I didn't know The Fish had friends!""
Do you think it might be possible that you are seeing these interactions through a (somewhat understandably) warped lens? This is NOT meant as a criticism - I have felt very similar to you in my dealings with a sibling, you see, and while we have a good relationship now it hasn't always been that way (and yes it is unbelievably uncomfortable in ways that falling out with friends just quite isn't); I have sometimes found myself looking at every interaction between us with a very jaundiced eye and have undoubtedly read nuances and layers of meaning into comments that simply weren't there, on reflection.
From the outside, maybe your sister was actually trying to BE extremely nice, not patronising, because she was trying somehow to maintain a relationship with you that she wasn't sure how to approach? Or she felt / feels guilt for rejecting you previously and just assumes now that things will be chilly between you? Or maybe she saw you as so self-sufficient and strong that she blurted out her thoughts to your friend without thinking - maybe she had never heard you talk about friends so assumed you didn't need / have them? You can't know that much about each other's lives if you left when she was 10 and you're both now grown-ups.
"What's bugging me now is the lack of response I receive when trying to communicate with her. After the last two line christmas thanks email I responded with a request for a photo or two of her my niece and nephews. It's been weeks now and no response."
What about picking up the phone? It's going to be a lot harder for her to ignore a phonecall than an e-mail (assuming you responded with the photo request by e-mail). Again, I know the pain of having to be the bigger sibling (in all ways) when you're feeling hurt and slighted, but livinglearning makes a point that came across to me as well - you don't sound quite ready to cut the ties just yet so a phonecall might give you more of a sense of where your feelings actually are.
As for the sheets and babysitting things, it sounds to me like some sort of odd penalty or retribution, almost - "These sheets are for X, this batch of laundry is for Y" and so I would also not assume that your sister doesn't feel altogether positive about her relationship with your parents - it's an odd way to behave if everything really is / was A-OK, wouldn't you think?
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 10:36 AM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
Do you think it might be possible that you are seeing these interactions through a (somewhat understandably) warped lens? This is NOT meant as a criticism - I have felt very similar to you in my dealings with a sibling, you see, and while we have a good relationship now it hasn't always been that way (and yes it is unbelievably uncomfortable in ways that falling out with friends just quite isn't); I have sometimes found myself looking at every interaction between us with a very jaundiced eye and have undoubtedly read nuances and layers of meaning into comments that simply weren't there, on reflection.
From the outside, maybe your sister was actually trying to BE extremely nice, not patronising, because she was trying somehow to maintain a relationship with you that she wasn't sure how to approach? Or she felt / feels guilt for rejecting you previously and just assumes now that things will be chilly between you? Or maybe she saw you as so self-sufficient and strong that she blurted out her thoughts to your friend without thinking - maybe she had never heard you talk about friends so assumed you didn't need / have them? You can't know that much about each other's lives if you left when she was 10 and you're both now grown-ups.
"What's bugging me now is the lack of response I receive when trying to communicate with her. After the last two line christmas thanks email I responded with a request for a photo or two of her my niece and nephews. It's been weeks now and no response."
What about picking up the phone? It's going to be a lot harder for her to ignore a phonecall than an e-mail (assuming you responded with the photo request by e-mail). Again, I know the pain of having to be the bigger sibling (in all ways) when you're feeling hurt and slighted, but livinglearning makes a point that came across to me as well - you don't sound quite ready to cut the ties just yet so a phonecall might give you more of a sense of where your feelings actually are.
As for the sheets and babysitting things, it sounds to me like some sort of odd penalty or retribution, almost - "These sheets are for X, this batch of laundry is for Y" and so I would also not assume that your sister doesn't feel altogether positive about her relationship with your parents - it's an odd way to behave if everything really is / was A-OK, wouldn't you think?
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 10:36 AM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
* "also not assume your sister feels ..."
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 10:40 AM on January 15, 2012
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 10:40 AM on January 15, 2012
Sounds like she was 10 years old when you were forced out? Who knows how the family dynamic might have changed once she hit puberty and started getting ideas of her own and perhaps had to be "controlled" in one way or another. And when one child is favored excessively he or she is usually also on the receiving end of some other weird expectations and emotional requirements. If she reads you as giving her things because of who she is to you, rather than who she is (and maybe this is no fault of your own and she's just highly sensitized in this area), it makes sense that she would react to you in particular like you're one of her parents. Which might not be something you can talk her out of. Psychodynamic therapy might be able to talk her out of it.
posted by Adventurer at 10:45 AM on January 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Adventurer at 10:45 AM on January 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
I don't know that I have advice that will work for you but I wanted to let you know that I empathize.
I'm 5 years older than my brother and he and I don't really have a relationship at all, either. The dynamic is different, there was no abuse, though I left home and struck out on my own, while he hung around, had his schooling paid for, etc. He hasn't rebuffed me in the same way your sister has (and for all I know, he feels rebuffed by me) but there is a distance I feel is impossible to bridge and I find that incredibly painful. Especially when I see friends who are so close to their siblings. He and I talk on Christmas, and maybe our birthdays. We get news of each other through my parents.
It's a cliché, but I recommend therapy. I've been working on family in general in therapy, and my relationship with him in particular. But it's hard. My therapist is always recommending things that are totally NOT how my family "does things." Apparently the way to change family dynamics is to do things differently! Really hard!
posted by looli at 11:09 AM on January 15, 2012
I'm 5 years older than my brother and he and I don't really have a relationship at all, either. The dynamic is different, there was no abuse, though I left home and struck out on my own, while he hung around, had his schooling paid for, etc. He hasn't rebuffed me in the same way your sister has (and for all I know, he feels rebuffed by me) but there is a distance I feel is impossible to bridge and I find that incredibly painful. Especially when I see friends who are so close to their siblings. He and I talk on Christmas, and maybe our birthdays. We get news of each other through my parents.
It's a cliché, but I recommend therapy. I've been working on family in general in therapy, and my relationship with him in particular. But it's hard. My therapist is always recommending things that are totally NOT how my family "does things." Apparently the way to change family dynamics is to do things differently! Really hard!
posted by looli at 11:09 AM on January 15, 2012
Why don't you just take a break from thinking about and communicating with your sister and her kids until the next time you visit your mother? She's clearly comfortable with that limited level of involvement in your life, and your trying to make her do more is not working.
When you do visit mom, it might be interesting if you were to spend some time with your sister alone, with no kids, partner, or mother present. Perhaps you can plan a sister's activity to do something that interests both of you.
Maybe this interaction will be stressful and unpleasant. Maybe it will be kind of nice. Either way, it can be something you do once a year, and don't worry about quite so much in months between.
posted by Scram at 11:31 AM on January 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
When you do visit mom, it might be interesting if you were to spend some time with your sister alone, with no kids, partner, or mother present. Perhaps you can plan a sister's activity to do something that interests both of you.
Maybe this interaction will be stressful and unpleasant. Maybe it will be kind of nice. Either way, it can be something you do once a year, and don't worry about quite so much in months between.
posted by Scram at 11:31 AM on January 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
I come from family with an interesting assortment of sibling relationship models: my mother's younger sister was estranged from her for the last 25 years of her life; my dad and his brother have spent a good three weeks together (in each other's houses) every year; my own siblings and I have been hampered by long stretches in childhood of having no contact.
What it boils down to is that both sides are deliberately choosing to be at whatever level of relationship you actually have - and whoever has an "issue" has to basically get over it, at least for the purposes of the sibling relationship, in order for the relationship to function properly. My mom always used to tell my sisters and I that we had to be allies, no matter what happened - she and her sister were split largely due to her mother's bad behavior.
When I read your post I was a little spooked, honestly - my aunt lived next door to my grandmother since the early 1980s, got lots of financial help my mom was denied, etc. My mom's still resentful because my aunt and grandma would fight like demons and then make cookies together an hour later, while she and grandma would spend weeks not talking to each other after a much smaller argument. It is really something to realize a 50-year-old woman and 46-year-old woman aren't talking to each other due to things that happened thirty years ago, that had nothing to do with what either of them actually wanted to have happen or had any real choice in deciding.
Anyway, I recommend a couple of things:
1. Write letters (don't send gifts, send handwritten letters) with photos of yourself and your family/friends, to the kids. Ask them to write you back and include photos. Ask them specific questions about their lives, school, hobbies, etc. Tell them about stuff you're doing. Treat them like people you want to be friends with, regardless of how their mother behaves; set the example and the parameters of your relationship with them. Address each one separately - KidA gets one envelope with a stamp and everything, and so does KidB, and so does KidC. Pay for the postage and the stationery with the money you were putting on gifts. Make sure to make it relatively easily legible. Include notes from your husband.
2. Send your sister information (and not gifts,) too. When you ask her for photos of her kids, send her photos of stuff you've done. Share good news with her (not the bragging kind - no cruises to the Bahamas - but rather "Todd and I logged 200 hours of volunteer service with the Zoo and got free passes for next year" or "we got a new cat, isn't it adorable?") Contact her at least as often as you'd like her to contact you. Again, setting an example.
3. If you think she should visit, invite her to come to specific things. Not "you should come see us sometime," but "there is this $event which I know you would love because you are so into $hobby, and you could completely stay at $place which is very convenient, and we could have $meal and get photos of all the kids and us!" Invite the kids to come to kid things in your area. Specific things.
4. Don't pin your hopes on her responding. It's healthy to keep trying, to keep behaving like you have a hope of the relationship changing. I suspect that if she acts like this for ten more years and then has a change of heart and wants to get closer to you, that you'd probably be open to that, right? So leave the door open, and demonstrate that it's open.
5. Stop sending them things that cost a lot of money. Stop thinking about the stuff that you've sent them. Just stop. It's causing you resentment and it's obvious that you aren't getting anything in return from them that you value. If you were sending them these gifts because you wanted them to love the stuff, and you didn't care if they showed you consideration in return, I don't think you'd feel resentful. So wait until (if) the relationship is more equal.
6. My caveat to #6 is that if the kids respond positively to your letters (and I must stress that it's the kids who need to respond,) then send them gifts again, if you want to, and are sure you won't mind if you get somewhat minimal thanks (because it is very hard to train kids to write decent thank-you notes from afar.) Don't send gifts to your sister unless and until she starts sending stuff to you.
Also: stop worrying about how different your sister is than you. She's conservative? So what. You think she's self-absorbed? Get over it. You either want a positive familial relationship with this person - and so you're willing to overlook your differences for the sake of that relationship - or you don't. Similarly, stop comparing her to your husband's siblings. Relationships are supposed to be one-on-one; the chorus of "shoulds" in the back of your head is not helping.
(And yeah, therapy.)
posted by SMPA at 12:24 PM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
What it boils down to is that both sides are deliberately choosing to be at whatever level of relationship you actually have - and whoever has an "issue" has to basically get over it, at least for the purposes of the sibling relationship, in order for the relationship to function properly. My mom always used to tell my sisters and I that we had to be allies, no matter what happened - she and her sister were split largely due to her mother's bad behavior.
When I read your post I was a little spooked, honestly - my aunt lived next door to my grandmother since the early 1980s, got lots of financial help my mom was denied, etc. My mom's still resentful because my aunt and grandma would fight like demons and then make cookies together an hour later, while she and grandma would spend weeks not talking to each other after a much smaller argument. It is really something to realize a 50-year-old woman and 46-year-old woman aren't talking to each other due to things that happened thirty years ago, that had nothing to do with what either of them actually wanted to have happen or had any real choice in deciding.
Anyway, I recommend a couple of things:
1. Write letters (don't send gifts, send handwritten letters) with photos of yourself and your family/friends, to the kids. Ask them to write you back and include photos. Ask them specific questions about their lives, school, hobbies, etc. Tell them about stuff you're doing. Treat them like people you want to be friends with, regardless of how their mother behaves; set the example and the parameters of your relationship with them. Address each one separately - KidA gets one envelope with a stamp and everything, and so does KidB, and so does KidC. Pay for the postage and the stationery with the money you were putting on gifts. Make sure to make it relatively easily legible. Include notes from your husband.
2. Send your sister information (and not gifts,) too. When you ask her for photos of her kids, send her photos of stuff you've done. Share good news with her (not the bragging kind - no cruises to the Bahamas - but rather "Todd and I logged 200 hours of volunteer service with the Zoo and got free passes for next year" or "we got a new cat, isn't it adorable?") Contact her at least as often as you'd like her to contact you. Again, setting an example.
3. If you think she should visit, invite her to come to specific things. Not "you should come see us sometime," but "there is this $event which I know you would love because you are so into $hobby, and you could completely stay at $place which is very convenient, and we could have $meal and get photos of all the kids and us!" Invite the kids to come to kid things in your area. Specific things.
4. Don't pin your hopes on her responding. It's healthy to keep trying, to keep behaving like you have a hope of the relationship changing. I suspect that if she acts like this for ten more years and then has a change of heart and wants to get closer to you, that you'd probably be open to that, right? So leave the door open, and demonstrate that it's open.
5. Stop sending them things that cost a lot of money. Stop thinking about the stuff that you've sent them. Just stop. It's causing you resentment and it's obvious that you aren't getting anything in return from them that you value. If you were sending them these gifts because you wanted them to love the stuff, and you didn't care if they showed you consideration in return, I don't think you'd feel resentful. So wait until (if) the relationship is more equal.
6. My caveat to #6 is that if the kids respond positively to your letters (and I must stress that it's the kids who need to respond,) then send them gifts again, if you want to, and are sure you won't mind if you get somewhat minimal thanks (because it is very hard to train kids to write decent thank-you notes from afar.) Don't send gifts to your sister unless and until she starts sending stuff to you.
Also: stop worrying about how different your sister is than you. She's conservative? So what. You think she's self-absorbed? Get over it. You either want a positive familial relationship with this person - and so you're willing to overlook your differences for the sake of that relationship - or you don't. Similarly, stop comparing her to your husband's siblings. Relationships are supposed to be one-on-one; the chorus of "shoulds" in the back of your head is not helping.
(And yeah, therapy.)
posted by SMPA at 12:24 PM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks very much for all your answers. They have given me much to think about.
posted by the fish at 4:02 PM on January 15, 2012
posted by the fish at 4:02 PM on January 15, 2012
Forgive her, and keep doing the things that feel right to you. Send cards and gifts, if you like, and call her on her birthday. Maybe she will come around, maybe she won't.
posted by gjc at 4:06 PM on January 15, 2012
posted by gjc at 4:06 PM on January 15, 2012
Just because someone is related to you, it doesn't mean that they're your soulmate or someone you're going to be close to. Sad but true. Some siblings just aren't interested and don't want to. If you're the kind of person they wouldn't associate with were you not related, well...
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:42 PM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:42 PM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
Just a bit of anecdata here-- I have a selfish, cruel, entitled younger sibling also who treats me as your sister treats you. A year ago I stopped trying to contact him, and it's been great. I don't miss him at all, nor do I miss his unkindness. I bet you'd be surprised how much better you'll feel if you stop talking to her. It is easier than you think, at least it was for me.
posted by devymetal at 6:33 PM on January 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by devymetal at 6:33 PM on January 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: It would be virtually impossible for the same parents who were so emotionally and physically abusive to you to have been model parents to her, giving her the unconditional love and support that a child needs while being monsters to you.
I understand what you are trying to say, decathecting, but real life is not as black and white as that. While my sister did not get off scott free (ie: she witnessed the abuse done to me) she has never had a hand laid on her, was never locked out of the house overnight, didn't have her birthday presents stolen by the mother who gave them to her, was not derided at every opportunity etc etc. My abuse started at age six just after my sister was born (pnd perhaps) and continued for ten straight years till I left home. My sister was the golden child given everything she wanted and continually complimented while I was the scapegoat. Our father was never abusive and he tried to protect me but regretfully he died when I was 12.
Sometimes one child is abused while another is not. It happens. However the idea that her witnessing what happened to me has some affect on our relationship now is something I'm thinking about.
posted by the fish at 7:31 PM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
I understand what you are trying to say, decathecting, but real life is not as black and white as that. While my sister did not get off scott free (ie: she witnessed the abuse done to me) she has never had a hand laid on her, was never locked out of the house overnight, didn't have her birthday presents stolen by the mother who gave them to her, was not derided at every opportunity etc etc. My abuse started at age six just after my sister was born (pnd perhaps) and continued for ten straight years till I left home. My sister was the golden child given everything she wanted and continually complimented while I was the scapegoat. Our father was never abusive and he tried to protect me but regretfully he died when I was 12.
Sometimes one child is abused while another is not. It happens. However the idea that her witnessing what happened to me has some affect on our relationship now is something I'm thinking about.
posted by the fish at 7:31 PM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
Every once in a while I read a question that I entirely understand but really don't "get." This is one of those questions. I'm about to be a little blunt. Get ready. It turns out well in the end!!
You are continuing the drama of your childhood through your sister, absolutely independent of whatever kind of person she is (and she sounds very selfish and damaged, fwiw.)
STOP THIS.
It seems you've forgiven your mother in some ways, but have transferred the role of "mistreatment source" on to your sister.
First of all, if your mother was abusive towards you, she was abusive towards your sister - probably just in different ways. That said, your sister is an adult, and she has apparently chosen this abuse from childhood to turn into a really really selfish adult. Meh. It happens.
She's probably jealous of you, btw, and that's why it is OK in her mind for her to hurt and snub you every chance you give her. Yes, you give her this opportunity. She's shitty for taking it, tho.
THE GOOD NEWS.
You sound like you've mostly done very very very well for yourself and that you did NOT turn into a mean-spirited f&ckhead as an adult. Congratulate yourself here!
For god's sake, tho, break the patterns you were programmed with as a child. Reprising these roles as an adult does you no favors.
Best!
posted by jbenben at 7:32 PM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
You are continuing the drama of your childhood through your sister, absolutely independent of whatever kind of person she is (and she sounds very selfish and damaged, fwiw.)
STOP THIS.
It seems you've forgiven your mother in some ways, but have transferred the role of "mistreatment source" on to your sister.
First of all, if your mother was abusive towards you, she was abusive towards your sister - probably just in different ways. That said, your sister is an adult, and she has apparently chosen this abuse from childhood to turn into a really really selfish adult. Meh. It happens.
She's probably jealous of you, btw, and that's why it is OK in her mind for her to hurt and snub you every chance you give her. Yes, you give her this opportunity. She's shitty for taking it, tho.
THE GOOD NEWS.
You sound like you've mostly done very very very well for yourself and that you did NOT turn into a mean-spirited f&ckhead as an adult. Congratulate yourself here!
For god's sake, tho, break the patterns you were programmed with as a child. Reprising these roles as an adult does you no favors.
Best!
posted by jbenben at 7:32 PM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
"Sometimes one child is abused while another is not. It happens. However the idea that her witnessing what happened to me has some affect on our relationship now is something I'm thinking about."
Oh, how wrong you are here about her experience of abuse. You're probably right that she's scape-goating you as per your mom's previous treatment of you. And that story about the sheets? A complaint via your mom, or something you actually witnessed? Is your mom playing you both off the middle? That seems likely here, upon your update.
I haven't talked to my mother since I was 24 years old, and should have run away from home at 12 years old, truth be told.
My younger brother thought/thinks he was not the abused one. Let me tell you how f&cked up his is now as an adult. And still close with our mom.
You have no idea if you think your sister wasn't manipulated, subjugated, and otherwise damaged emotionally.
I think there are books about this sibling treatment disparity. Someone may have already addressed this. Your mom sounds borderline personality disorder, and there are books that specifically speak to this dynamic of favoring one child over another.
This abusing of one child and not the other(s) is common. Google!
posted by jbenben at 7:41 PM on January 15, 2012
Oh, how wrong you are here about her experience of abuse. You're probably right that she's scape-goating you as per your mom's previous treatment of you. And that story about the sheets? A complaint via your mom, or something you actually witnessed? Is your mom playing you both off the middle? That seems likely here, upon your update.
I haven't talked to my mother since I was 24 years old, and should have run away from home at 12 years old, truth be told.
My younger brother thought/thinks he was not the abused one. Let me tell you how f&cked up his is now as an adult. And still close with our mom.
You have no idea if you think your sister wasn't manipulated, subjugated, and otherwise damaged emotionally.
I think there are books about this sibling treatment disparity. Someone may have already addressed this. Your mom sounds borderline personality disorder, and there are books that specifically speak to this dynamic of favoring one child over another.
This abusing of one child and not the other(s) is common. Google!
posted by jbenben at 7:41 PM on January 15, 2012
Response by poster: Oh, how wrong you are here about her experience of abuse . . . You have no idea if you think your sister wasn't manipulated, subjugated, and otherwise damaged emotionally.
Jbenben (second comment) & liketitanic, I feel like you are dumping on me and it's not helping with my question. I know my sister had/has issues with my mother - hardly any kid goes through childhood without some trauma - but my sister admits that it was nothing compared to what I got (her words from when we lived together in our 20s). Jbenben, re: the sheets, it was something that I witnessed during my last visit (along with a crock-pot, some garden implements and a stereo system).
Jbenben (first comment) continuing the drama of your childhood through your sister. Funnily enough I had the same thought earlier today after posting my question and it's something well-worth exploring. Thanks.
posted by the fish at 9:05 PM on January 15, 2012
Jbenben (second comment) & liketitanic, I feel like you are dumping on me and it's not helping with my question. I know my sister had/has issues with my mother - hardly any kid goes through childhood without some trauma - but my sister admits that it was nothing compared to what I got (her words from when we lived together in our 20s). Jbenben, re: the sheets, it was something that I witnessed during my last visit (along with a crock-pot, some garden implements and a stereo system).
Jbenben (first comment) continuing the drama of your childhood through your sister. Funnily enough I had the same thought earlier today after posting my question and it's something well-worth exploring. Thanks.
posted by the fish at 9:05 PM on January 15, 2012
In many ways, I am your younger sister. Except without the kids, the husband, etc. My half-siblings from my dad's earlier marriage are much older, but I was raised in a higher social class with many more initial opportunities. Kinda like your sister, actually. I don't think your ill will is as deep as theirs, but you should still talk to her about how you feel. Likewise, she may not 100% be what you think she is and, if you two can approach the table with all bullshit aside (not your fault!), you may find a lot of commonalities. Rude people aren't always rude by nature, and it sounds your sister may be harbouring some degree of anger or resentment, as well. Her anti-social inclinations may even be a result of whatever went on in the house while you were out surviving (good for you, though! seriously). So:
Blood, is blood, is blood. Find a way to initiate a serious conversation with her - in person - about your relationship to each other as sisters.
posted by Ashen at 9:23 PM on January 15, 2012
Blood, is blood, is blood. Find a way to initiate a serious conversation with her - in person - about your relationship to each other as sisters.
posted by Ashen at 9:23 PM on January 15, 2012
A recent Guardian piece looked at disagreements over shared memories and the issues they can cause between relatives.
I have one sister and while there isn't such bad stress between us, being with her creates a weird tension because her narrative about her life is at an angle to mine. She knows I can see through some of her pretense and it makes her uncomfortable. In turn, I know she's come to certain conclusions about me that I don't think are fair, but I don't expect to change them.
Sometimes you just have to live with it, accept a minimal thread of communication and get on with your own life.
posted by zadcat at 11:30 PM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
I have one sister and while there isn't such bad stress between us, being with her creates a weird tension because her narrative about her life is at an angle to mine. She knows I can see through some of her pretense and it makes her uncomfortable. In turn, I know she's come to certain conclusions about me that I don't think are fair, but I don't expect to change them.
Sometimes you just have to live with it, accept a minimal thread of communication and get on with your own life.
posted by zadcat at 11:30 PM on January 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: This conversation has been enormously helpful. It has opened my mind to different perspectives and narratives. Especially the comments that have challenged me...
I think I have grounds to build on something I didn't ask for - not how to not care but how to care better. It's an encouraging outcome.
I thank you.
posted by the fish at 1:59 AM on January 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
I think I have grounds to build on something I didn't ask for - not how to not care but how to care better. It's an encouraging outcome.
I thank you.
posted by the fish at 1:59 AM on January 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
I know several families in which the 'golden child' (the often younger child who escaped the beatings and appeared to grow up with more privileges than that their other siblings) has been hugely fucked up by insidious emotional abuse and manipulation. You keep listing the mistreatments that were inflicted upon you and not her as evidence that she has nothing to complain about—but that's not how it works, unfortunately. There are no winners in a family like that.
I really feel for you, and I'm sorry you had such a rough childhood, but your insistence that your suffering exceeded your sister's suffering is making it difficult for you to empathise with her. I'm not saying your suffering wasn't worse, by the way—I'm saying that insisting on re-living and re-stating the comparison(even in your own head) does nothing but maintain your resentment and continue to drive a wedge between you. Some bruises are more visible than others, and in my experience, the wounds of Golden Children can sometimes take even longer to heal because they're less likely to be acknowledged—particularly when they've grown up with the narrative that they were the 'lucky one'.
posted by hot soup girl at 6:37 AM on January 16, 2012 [7 favorites]
I really feel for you, and I'm sorry you had such a rough childhood, but your insistence that your suffering exceeded your sister's suffering is making it difficult for you to empathise with her. I'm not saying your suffering wasn't worse, by the way—I'm saying that insisting on re-living and re-stating the comparison(even in your own head) does nothing but maintain your resentment and continue to drive a wedge between you. Some bruises are more visible than others, and in my experience, the wounds of Golden Children can sometimes take even longer to heal because they're less likely to be acknowledged—particularly when they've grown up with the narrative that they were the 'lucky one'.
posted by hot soup girl at 6:37 AM on January 16, 2012 [7 favorites]
You could very well be right and she was abused not you. Maybe your mother is continuing to abuse you after your departure by telling lies and horror stories about you to your sister (which may be contributing to the lack of contact).
Or, maybe she was abused as well though not to the extent that you were and is afraid to talk to you about it as it may come off as "whining" and "insensitive" to talk about the pain she suffered when you suffered much worse.
Have you considered calling your sister and asking her if she feels that she was abused?
There are so many reasons for her actions that there is no way for anyone except her to clarify this for you. It would be very awkward, but possibly also very liberating to ask her what is going on.
posted by Shouraku at 1:27 PM on January 16, 2012
Or, maybe she was abused as well though not to the extent that you were and is afraid to talk to you about it as it may come off as "whining" and "insensitive" to talk about the pain she suffered when you suffered much worse.
Have you considered calling your sister and asking her if she feels that she was abused?
There are so many reasons for her actions that there is no way for anyone except her to clarify this for you. It would be very awkward, but possibly also very liberating to ask her what is going on.
posted by Shouraku at 1:27 PM on January 16, 2012
"You could very well be right and you were abused not her"
(sorry, typo)
posted by Shouraku at 2:07 PM on January 16, 2012
(sorry, typo)
posted by Shouraku at 2:07 PM on January 16, 2012
I'm wondering if the dynamic that some people are identifying, is:
The problem with the scapegoat child/golden child, is that the scapegoat gets it worse. Definitely.
But, they also often learn that their parents are not healthy role models, and that they do not want to be like them.
On the other hand, the abusive parent is often moulding the golden child, to be just like them, and to seek the approval of someone who is very, very screwed up.
Which, as you can gather, is a bad thing.
There are searchable studies, that show that mental illness in a parent leads to worse outcomes for kids. Up to a certain point, and then then there's a sudden dip. Because at that point, the parents are so clearly unwell, that even a child knows that they are not a healthy role model for adult behaviour, and they will look to outside sources for appropriate reactions.
So basically, is there behaviour in your sister that reminds you of your mother? Or behaviour that your mother deliberately instilled? (Gift giving as expression/substitute for love).
If so, know where she got it from.
And, if she is at least a better parent than your mother was, recognise that for the achievement it is.
Finally, it is very, very ok to draw healthy boundaries.
And, wow, what I'm about to say might be really hard, but...
I've heard that sometimes the hardest thing to face, is recognising you aren't the broken one, and that the abuser is.
Because... as long as you are the broken one, there's a chance that you can fix yourself, and finally get the love and attention you have craved from your parent/abuser. But, if they're the one that's broken, then you may never get that.
And that... wow that's painful.
But you can, you can get love from others, and something even better. Love for yourself (which often leads to the other).
So yeah, good luck.
posted by Elysum at 2:40 PM on January 16, 2012 [7 favorites]
The problem with the scapegoat child/golden child, is that the scapegoat gets it worse. Definitely.
But, they also often learn that their parents are not healthy role models, and that they do not want to be like them.
On the other hand, the abusive parent is often moulding the golden child, to be just like them, and to seek the approval of someone who is very, very screwed up.
Which, as you can gather, is a bad thing.
There are searchable studies, that show that mental illness in a parent leads to worse outcomes for kids. Up to a certain point, and then then there's a sudden dip. Because at that point, the parents are so clearly unwell, that even a child knows that they are not a healthy role model for adult behaviour, and they will look to outside sources for appropriate reactions.
So basically, is there behaviour in your sister that reminds you of your mother? Or behaviour that your mother deliberately instilled? (Gift giving as expression/substitute for love).
If so, know where she got it from.
And, if she is at least a better parent than your mother was, recognise that for the achievement it is.
Finally, it is very, very ok to draw healthy boundaries.
And, wow, what I'm about to say might be really hard, but...
I've heard that sometimes the hardest thing to face, is recognising you aren't the broken one, and that the abuser is.
Because... as long as you are the broken one, there's a chance that you can fix yourself, and finally get the love and attention you have craved from your parent/abuser. But, if they're the one that's broken, then you may never get that.
And that... wow that's painful.
But you can, you can get love from others, and something even better. Love for yourself (which often leads to the other).
So yeah, good luck.
posted by Elysum at 2:40 PM on January 16, 2012 [7 favorites]
Chiming in late as a golden child here (eldest daughter, younger sister was scapegoat and forced out of the home in her early teens), hot soup girl and liketitanic have it.
If you're not willing to acknowledge your sister as a person with a emotional world as rich as your own, then what benefit is it to her to feature you more prominently in her life --especially if no matter what she's gone through it's always going to be nothing compared to you? What if it was something, even 1%... if she weren't your sister but a stranger confiding this to you, wouldn't even that 1% be worth acknowledging? Or does the fact that she's "blood" automatically negate any negative life experiences she ever had, having been born into the same inadequate parenting system?
I currently maintain a no-contact boundary with my sister. I can certainly say I feel immensely better about myself, and struggle through my own problems in a much more effective, adult-like manner, without the battle of having to prove my feelings exist with her around. It still hurts sometimes, but it is what it is.
posted by human ecologist at 10:09 AM on January 17, 2012 [3 favorites]
If you're not willing to acknowledge your sister as a person with a emotional world as rich as your own, then what benefit is it to her to feature you more prominently in her life --especially if no matter what she's gone through it's always going to be nothing compared to you? What if it was something, even 1%... if she weren't your sister but a stranger confiding this to you, wouldn't even that 1% be worth acknowledging? Or does the fact that she's "blood" automatically negate any negative life experiences she ever had, having been born into the same inadequate parenting system?
I currently maintain a no-contact boundary with my sister. I can certainly say I feel immensely better about myself, and struggle through my own problems in a much more effective, adult-like manner, without the battle of having to prove my feelings exist with her around. It still hurts sometimes, but it is what it is.
posted by human ecologist at 10:09 AM on January 17, 2012 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Postroad at 8:49 AM on January 15, 2012 [5 favorites]