Am I a total snob for being embarrassed by my friend's table habit?
December 29, 2011 2:46 PM Subscribe
Am I a total snob for being embarrassed by my friend's table habit? If so, how can I fix it?
I have a colleague who is also a good friend, so we eat meals together a lot. Sometimes more laid back, sometimes fancier with bosses. Regardless, we share a lot of meals.
I'm not the fanciest person myself, but I feel like I do a decent job at faking the etiquette rules that don't come naturally to me.
My friend holds his fork/spoon with a fist. ( Like this.) All of the time. I feel embarrassed to eat with him, especially in front of new people or work superiors. Because he and I are close, and I'm a bit of a mentor to him (I'm older & more career established), I feel like what he does can reflect on me.
Is this a normal thing? Am I overreacting in thinking it's bad manners to not hold your utensils "correctly" if your hands are able to and you're an adult? He's "well behaved" otherwise.
Any tips on helping me not focus on it when we're sharing a meal? I'm aware this probably isn't something I can/should try to change about him, so looking for support to change how I react to it.
I have a colleague who is also a good friend, so we eat meals together a lot. Sometimes more laid back, sometimes fancier with bosses. Regardless, we share a lot of meals.
I'm not the fanciest person myself, but I feel like I do a decent job at faking the etiquette rules that don't come naturally to me.
My friend holds his fork/spoon with a fist. ( Like this.) All of the time. I feel embarrassed to eat with him, especially in front of new people or work superiors. Because he and I are close, and I'm a bit of a mentor to him (I'm older & more career established), I feel like what he does can reflect on me.
Is this a normal thing? Am I overreacting in thinking it's bad manners to not hold your utensils "correctly" if your hands are able to and you're an adult? He's "well behaved" otherwise.
Any tips on helping me not focus on it when we're sharing a meal? I'm aware this probably isn't something I can/should try to change about him, so looking for support to change how I react to it.
Am I overreacting in thinking it's bad manners to not hold your utensils "correctly" if your hands are able to and you're an adult?
If the person reflects on you, there are probably several hundred ways he does it before 'how he holds a utensil' comes into play. Technically speaking, I wouldn't even count it as table 'manners' and would be more concerned with his holding his own in intelligent conversation, being respectful to wait staff, etc.
It might be one of those things that gets to you for some private reason more than its relative relevance to the rest of the world.
>>Any tips on helping me not focus on it when we're sharing a meal?
Unless he's got a ham stuck in his hair or something, devote mental inventory instead to noticing his other ways of interacting with the world that are more positive and more important.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:54 PM on December 29, 2011 [7 favorites]
If the person reflects on you, there are probably several hundred ways he does it before 'how he holds a utensil' comes into play. Technically speaking, I wouldn't even count it as table 'manners' and would be more concerned with his holding his own in intelligent conversation, being respectful to wait staff, etc.
It might be one of those things that gets to you for some private reason more than its relative relevance to the rest of the world.
>>Any tips on helping me not focus on it when we're sharing a meal?
Unless he's got a ham stuck in his hair or something, devote mental inventory instead to noticing his other ways of interacting with the world that are more positive and more important.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:54 PM on December 29, 2011 [7 favorites]
If you're not eating lunch with the Queen (who has, by the way, perfect table manners, insofar as she changes how she does things to match people so *they* don't feel impolite), I think you have to let it go. He's technically wrong, I guess, but....let it go.
posted by thylacinthine at 2:54 PM on December 29, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by thylacinthine at 2:54 PM on December 29, 2011 [5 favorites]
This is a really common behavior. I think a lot of parents don't ever teach their kids how to hold silverware "properly." But my recommendation is -- focus on his face, not his hands. You aren't a snob, but you also aren't his etiquette instructor.
posted by bearwife at 2:55 PM on December 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by bearwife at 2:55 PM on December 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
I was told that one had to hold the fork in the right hand and switch to the left hand when needing to use a knife (which was held in the right hand). This was supposedly "good manners". Then, I met some European friends who always held their fork in their left hand, and knife in the right hand. To them, this was "good manners" (and, arguably, more efficient!).
I've had Chinese roommates who ate with their mouth open while making loud noises; to them, this was a way to show appreciation for good food. I was told to keep my mouth closed while chewing and to try to minimize the amount of noise.
Good/bad manners are very much cultural and, frankly, often silly. The problem is that people tend to judge others based on something that is completely arbitrary - such as so-called rules of etiquette for eating. I'm afraid I'm very much in the minority in thinking this way though...
posted by aroberge at 2:56 PM on December 29, 2011 [10 favorites]
I've had Chinese roommates who ate with their mouth open while making loud noises; to them, this was a way to show appreciation for good food. I was told to keep my mouth closed while chewing and to try to minimize the amount of noise.
Good/bad manners are very much cultural and, frankly, often silly. The problem is that people tend to judge others based on something that is completely arbitrary - such as so-called rules of etiquette for eating. I'm afraid I'm very much in the minority in thinking this way though...
posted by aroberge at 2:56 PM on December 29, 2011 [10 favorites]
Have you talked to him about this? He may not even realize that he has poor table manners. Some people just weren't raised with the same sort of manners as others.
Of course, sometimes people don't listen. I used to work with a guy who did this and when one of our friends/co-workers pointed it out he basically told us to shag off and leave him be.
I'd start with talking to him about it, though. First, casually as SPrintF points out. If that doesn't work, you might have to get a bit "serious" and mention that it reflects poorly on him during lunches with the bosses and that, if he wants to move ahead, he'll need to improve his table manners.
posted by asnider at 2:57 PM on December 29, 2011
Of course, sometimes people don't listen. I used to work with a guy who did this and when one of our friends/co-workers pointed it out he basically told us to shag off and leave him be.
I'd start with talking to him about it, though. First, casually as SPrintF points out. If that doesn't work, you might have to get a bit "serious" and mention that it reflects poorly on him during lunches with the bosses and that, if he wants to move ahead, he'll need to improve his table manners.
posted by asnider at 2:57 PM on December 29, 2011
I don't eat like this, but if I noticed someone doing it -- even at a nice restaurant -- I wouldn't think twice about it. It may be uncommon, but I don't think it's rude.
I have had to start using spoons differently because I discovered the way I was using it was hurting my finger. Anyhow, some people have small idiosyncratic problems doing things the "normal" way.
I'd say focus on your own manners more, and that includes being a gracious and attentive (to the correct details) dining partner.
posted by hermitosis at 3:03 PM on December 29, 2011
I have had to start using spoons differently because I discovered the way I was using it was hurting my finger. Anyhow, some people have small idiosyncratic problems doing things the "normal" way.
I'd say focus on your own manners more, and that includes being a gracious and attentive (to the correct details) dining partner.
posted by hermitosis at 3:03 PM on December 29, 2011
My friend holds his fork/spoon with a fist.
Are you sure he doesn't have a condition that affects his manual dexterity such that he can't easily or comfortably hold silverware in the usual way? I certainly wouldn't bring it up otherwise. You mention "if your hands are able to," but it's not clear from your description if his hands are.
posted by jedicus at 3:06 PM on December 29, 2011 [11 favorites]
Are you sure he doesn't have a condition that affects his manual dexterity such that he can't easily or comfortably hold silverware in the usual way? I certainly wouldn't bring it up otherwise. You mention "if your hands are able to," but it's not clear from your description if his hands are.
posted by jedicus at 3:06 PM on December 29, 2011 [11 favorites]
You are a snob. His behavior has literally zero impact on you or anyone else beyond arbitrary standards of propriety decided who knows how long ago. Get over it.
posted by drethelin at 3:09 PM on December 29, 2011 [14 favorites]
posted by drethelin at 3:09 PM on December 29, 2011 [14 favorites]
no, you're not a snob. that's a ridiculous way to hold your fork, and everyone looking at him is thinking that there's something wrong with him, or that he's socially clueless at best.
posted by facetious at 3:12 PM on December 29, 2011 [29 favorites]
posted by facetious at 3:12 PM on December 29, 2011 [29 favorites]
just as a data point, in neurology exams, it's relevant how people hold writing utensils and eating utensils. Do you have any other evidence he might have some deficits?
posted by namesarehard at 3:14 PM on December 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by namesarehard at 3:14 PM on December 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Because he and I are close, and I'm a bit of a mentor to him (I'm older & more career established), I feel like what he does can reflect on me.
You are their mentor: bring it up. Careers are made or destroyed over lunches and dinners. Etiquette matters a lot to some people, especially in other cultures, and this person might not even know they are doing it wrong.
If I was oblivious to something that was embarrassing me, I'd be angry that nobody told me otherwise yet.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 3:14 PM on December 29, 2011 [24 favorites]
You are their mentor: bring it up. Careers are made or destroyed over lunches and dinners. Etiquette matters a lot to some people, especially in other cultures, and this person might not even know they are doing it wrong.
If I was oblivious to something that was embarrassing me, I'd be angry that nobody told me otherwise yet.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 3:14 PM on December 29, 2011 [24 favorites]
Yeeeeeeah. This would bug me a lot, and I DO NOT have perfect table manners. It just looks absolutely childish. If you have that kind of relationship, by all means bring it up.
posted by two lights above the sea at 3:17 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by two lights above the sea at 3:17 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
If in fact you do have a mentoring role (acknowledged by him either implicitly or explicitly) there is nothng wrong with having a discussion with him. But it is not about how you feel but rather suggestions regarding dining etiquette and career development. You are not a snob if you handle your feelings graciously, quietly, with decorum and respect his other qualities. If you distance your self from him or embarrass him then you maybe a snob and probably are being rude. If he is primarily a friend--well, good luck and bite the bullet of friendship and enjoy his company
posted by rmhsinc at 3:18 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by rmhsinc at 3:18 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Most cities offer "Business Etiquette" classes for execs/reps/pr folks who want to advance. These folks take the "my way or the highway" approach for instructional purposes, and usually don't mince words.
Hearing it from Madame Uptight and her minions takes you out of the loop. Then you can laugh about with him later...over lunch
posted by halfbuckaroo at 3:25 PM on December 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
Hearing it from Madame Uptight and her minions takes you out of the loop. Then you can laugh about with him later...over lunch
posted by halfbuckaroo at 3:25 PM on December 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
How you hold your silverware is a signifier. It's not a signifier everyone cares about, and in a cosmic sense, it's not important, but it can be important in some situations.
I'd start by thinking about how important your colleague thinks other people's perceptions of him are. Is he trying to advance in his career? Do his eating habits (or any other similar cultural signifiers) seem to be holding him back?
If so, then perhaps in your role as a mentor, that is something you might want to bring up with him. Not in a "you're doing this wrong" way but in a "this is a cultural thing that some people will care about, in the way that some people care about correct spelling or not saying 'between you and I' or whatever" kind of a way. My mother, for instance, recently did this with a friend of ours on the subject of how to pour wine. In the great scheme of things, how you pour the wine or hold your silverware doesn't matter, but if you're at a dinner with people after a job interview, it might.
If you don't think your colleague is trying to advance in any way, then you have to decide whether you think people's perceptions of you are influenced enough by his behavior that it's worth having this potentially unpleasant chat with him.
posted by newrambler at 3:26 PM on December 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
I'd start by thinking about how important your colleague thinks other people's perceptions of him are. Is he trying to advance in his career? Do his eating habits (or any other similar cultural signifiers) seem to be holding him back?
If so, then perhaps in your role as a mentor, that is something you might want to bring up with him. Not in a "you're doing this wrong" way but in a "this is a cultural thing that some people will care about, in the way that some people care about correct spelling or not saying 'between you and I' or whatever" kind of a way. My mother, for instance, recently did this with a friend of ours on the subject of how to pour wine. In the great scheme of things, how you pour the wine or hold your silverware doesn't matter, but if you're at a dinner with people after a job interview, it might.
If you don't think your colleague is trying to advance in any way, then you have to decide whether you think people's perceptions of you are influenced enough by his behavior that it's worth having this potentially unpleasant chat with him.
posted by newrambler at 3:26 PM on December 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
If he's able to get all of his food in his face without shoveling it off the edge of his upheld plate and ripping meat from the bone with his teeth like a cave man, then leave him alone. Feel free to make fun of him about it, though.
posted by cmoj at 3:29 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by cmoj at 3:29 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Well OP's question was whether it was normal and more to the point, how OP can stop focusing on it. Whetehr or not OP is a snob (and I don't think so) is immaterial.
I don't know if it is normal or a cultural thing like the American/Euro utensil switch thing * since we don't know where you are from or where the colleague might be from originally.
As long as colleague's manners are otherwise good, I doubt too many people will notice or care. I mean you go out to business lunches, you are talking about business. Wiping food with sleeve is one thing, holding utensils that way would be off the radar for most people.
And how would you feel if that person had a slight handicap or defect. I know a lot of people are saying that subtle things like that can hurt people in careers - and I work in IT where table manners are a surprising bonus, but still I'd tread lightly. It isn't like he is wiping his mouth with his sleeve or chewing with his mouth open.
* there was an old WWII movie where the German spy got caught because he didn't do the utensil switcheroo, or was it the Americn spy who *did* the utensil switcheroo.
posted by xetere at 3:30 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't know if it is normal or a cultural thing like the American/Euro utensil switch thing * since we don't know where you are from or where the colleague might be from originally.
As long as colleague's manners are otherwise good, I doubt too many people will notice or care. I mean you go out to business lunches, you are talking about business. Wiping food with sleeve is one thing, holding utensils that way would be off the radar for most people.
And how would you feel if that person had a slight handicap or defect. I know a lot of people are saying that subtle things like that can hurt people in careers - and I work in IT where table manners are a surprising bonus, but still I'd tread lightly. It isn't like he is wiping his mouth with his sleeve or chewing with his mouth open.
* there was an old WWII movie where the German spy got caught because he didn't do the utensil switcheroo, or was it the Americn spy who *did* the utensil switcheroo.
posted by xetere at 3:30 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
This would bug me a lot but there is literally no way to bring it up without sounding like a jerk. Silent suffering and learning to ignore it seems like the best option.
posted by The Whelk at 3:42 PM on December 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 3:42 PM on December 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
I am embarrassed by poor manners of any kind, so I don't think you are being unreasonable. Manners are there to make sure that everyone is comfortable, so when you ignore that code, to me it's like saying you don't care if people are uncomfortable.
How I keep from focusing on such things is reminding myself that they are not about me. His poor manners are not about you. They're about him. Just because he has poor manners and he is your friend doesn't mean that you also have poor manners, too, or that you endorse his poor manners. It's normal to be embarrassed, but don't internalize it, because it doesn't say anything about you except that you have a friend that holds his fork weird.
You said you believe you can't change the behavior, and maybe you can't, but you could say something like, "Is it hard to eat like that?" I think that's an honest question and not terribly impolite. If he doesn't get it, move on. Maybe you'll also learn something about why he holds his fork like that, which may make you less embarrassed about it.
posted by Elizabeth907 at 3:49 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
How I keep from focusing on such things is reminding myself that they are not about me. His poor manners are not about you. They're about him. Just because he has poor manners and he is your friend doesn't mean that you also have poor manners, too, or that you endorse his poor manners. It's normal to be embarrassed, but don't internalize it, because it doesn't say anything about you except that you have a friend that holds his fork weird.
You said you believe you can't change the behavior, and maybe you can't, but you could say something like, "Is it hard to eat like that?" I think that's an honest question and not terribly impolite. If he doesn't get it, move on. Maybe you'll also learn something about why he holds his fork like that, which may make you less embarrassed about it.
posted by Elizabeth907 at 3:49 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I notice this when I am out at business functions. It is one of the behaviors that reflects negatively on the person doing it. Admittedly it is a minor reflection but small things can matter in these situations and I do know people where this would be a dealbreaker. It may be more useful than he realizes to improve his manners and perhaps a word to that effect would be appropriate.
posted by troll on a pony at 3:53 PM on December 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by troll on a pony at 3:53 PM on December 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
How does he hold a pen? If there is some physical thing going on, I imagine it'd show up when he's holding a pen too. If so, I'd leave him alone. But if he holds a pen in a more typical fashion maybe that gives you a conversational 'in'.
posted by mullacc at 3:54 PM on December 29, 2011
posted by mullacc at 3:54 PM on December 29, 2011
I used to hold my fork like this until someone teased me about it. I have changed my ways since, though I honestly don't think it has made any difference in my life. Maybe if you guys work in a very formal environment. His table manners certainly do not reflect on you, unless you are also his mom. I don't think it'll crush him if you ask "hey, why do you hold your fork like that?"
posted by chaiminda at 3:55 PM on December 29, 2011
posted by chaiminda at 3:55 PM on December 29, 2011
I really like SPrintF's idea to point out, with curiosity, that you both hold your utensils differently. No judgment, no parent-like critique - just curiosity. He may simply acknowledge the difference and move on (in which case you stop the discussion), he might acknowledge it and comment further (either saying why does it differently, asking why YOU do it differently, or admitting he has no idea what the 'right' way to hold the fork might be, etc.) and then you're free to discuss it.
I hold my knife and fork differently - sometimes - because I have intermittent issues with my wrists that make it painful to try to cut meat (for example) the usual way. I'd happily explain it to someone if they asked, but it seems self-important and really weird to announce that at the start of a meal ("Hey, um, everyone? I know you'll all notice that I don't hold my knife the way you do, and I need to explain it, ok? I have this issue..") .. I'd have no problem discussing it if asked.
As for how to ignore it - if you can't bring it up in a gentle, curious way - your best bet is to look around the room and a) notice how many people are NOT paying any attention whatsoever to him or you (because they really don't care), and b) practice being gentle in thought, with the knowledge that you probably have some weird, funky, 'wrong' behaviours that drive other people nuts and that they don't mention to you, and, c) take some deep breaths and try to refocus your attention on anything else.
posted by VioletU at 3:57 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I hold my knife and fork differently - sometimes - because I have intermittent issues with my wrists that make it painful to try to cut meat (for example) the usual way. I'd happily explain it to someone if they asked, but it seems self-important and really weird to announce that at the start of a meal ("Hey, um, everyone? I know you'll all notice that I don't hold my knife the way you do, and I need to explain it, ok? I have this issue..") .. I'd have no problem discussing it if asked.
As for how to ignore it - if you can't bring it up in a gentle, curious way - your best bet is to look around the room and a) notice how many people are NOT paying any attention whatsoever to him or you (because they really don't care), and b) practice being gentle in thought, with the knowledge that you probably have some weird, funky, 'wrong' behaviours that drive other people nuts and that they don't mention to you, and, c) take some deep breaths and try to refocus your attention on anything else.
posted by VioletU at 3:57 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
You're overreacting.
Good table manners- or for that manner, eating habits- are extremely culture-dependent. An American friend of mine was horrified when I told him that we eat with our hands in India, by and large. And I have Indian friends who look at me funny when I eat with a spoon.
That said. If it bothers you that much, I would bring it up. A lot of business deals get made outside the boardroom and if his table manners are something that would make a potential client/interviewer think twice, then he should know about them.
posted by Tamanna at 4:02 PM on December 29, 2011
Good table manners- or for that manner, eating habits- are extremely culture-dependent. An American friend of mine was horrified when I told him that we eat with our hands in India, by and large. And I have Indian friends who look at me funny when I eat with a spoon.
That said. If it bothers you that much, I would bring it up. A lot of business deals get made outside the boardroom and if his table manners are something that would make a potential client/interviewer think twice, then he should know about them.
posted by Tamanna at 4:02 PM on December 29, 2011
"I might be wrong about this, but when we're at our formal dinners with the bosses, I think there's a possibility that some folks may look at the way you're holding your fork as childish. It's so absurd that the business world can be affected by silly things like that, but as someone who's taken an interest in your career I wanted to let you know that some folks who don't know your talents might tend to dismiss you as ill-mannered or even juvenile because of the way you hold your fork. *laughs* I don't want to make you uncomfortable or turn this into a bigger deal than it is, but just wanted to bring it to your attention that in some circumstances you might be making a first impression to some people you might not have been aware of. Again, I could be wrong about this, but I've never noticed anyone else at our formal dinners eating like that and thought it might be worth mentioning."
Then change the subject to something more pleasant. It may feel odd to bring it up directly, but it is do-able. Next time you're at lunch alone, maybe.
posted by mediareport at 4:15 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Then change the subject to something more pleasant. It may feel odd to bring it up directly, but it is do-able. Next time you're at lunch alone, maybe.
posted by mediareport at 4:15 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think your assumption that it's bad manners and not an issue of dexterity or even simple habit that's overreacting and kind of rude, but I do understand that these are the kinds of things that other people may notice - in my line of work, it'd possibly be something to titter about -- what I don't understand is why you haven't simply asked him about it if it bothers you that much.
posted by sm1tten at 4:15 PM on December 29, 2011
posted by sm1tten at 4:15 PM on December 29, 2011
Newrambler upthread has it exactly right. If he's going to be in a position where people in business will judge him for superficial reasons like the way he holds his fork, it's perfectly reasonable to address it in those terms.
Also, fwiw, I'm not particularly fancy either, but it would raise my eyebrows. And it could be a physical-development or neurological issue—I know of a tween who's got some physical-development issues and she holds her utensils awkwardly too.
posted by adamrice at 4:29 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Also, fwiw, I'm not particularly fancy either, but it would raise my eyebrows. And it could be a physical-development or neurological issue—I know of a tween who's got some physical-development issues and she holds her utensils awkwardly too.
posted by adamrice at 4:29 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
In case you are interested in Ms. Manners' take on a similar (but more disgusting) table behavior:
Dear Miss Manners,
What is the best way to address people who lick their fingers while eating? It is a common occurrence that I find extremely rude, especially when I’m trying to enjoy my meal.
Gentle Reader,
Don’t shake hands with them. Better yet, don’t go out to dinner with them. Unless these people happen to be your children, Miss Manners is afraid that you cannot correct their table manners, such as they are.
posted by bearwife at 4:30 PM on December 29, 2011
Dear Miss Manners,
What is the best way to address people who lick their fingers while eating? It is a common occurrence that I find extremely rude, especially when I’m trying to enjoy my meal.
Gentle Reader,
Don’t shake hands with them. Better yet, don’t go out to dinner with them. Unless these people happen to be your children, Miss Manners is afraid that you cannot correct their table manners, such as they are.
posted by bearwife at 4:30 PM on December 29, 2011
You're not a snob; that manner of holding a utensil is definitely gauche by common US standards. However, because that style is gauche and normally corrected by a parent by the time a child reaches a certain age makes me wonder if this person (as mentioned above) has some sort of physical reason that he holds his fork this way. How old is this person? Has he never dated someone or had a significant other that might have been close enough to him to mention this social faux pas? It seems to me that somewhere along the path of this person's life he would have either been corrected by someone (even a mocking classmate) or would have noticed the way folks on TV and in movies and in restaurants typically eat to realize that his method is incorrect. So either he has noticed over time and doesn't care or is obtuse, or he has some sort of physical limitation that prevents him from changing his grip. In any case, according to Miss Manners one major facet of good etiquette is NOT to correct someone else's behavior, no matter how well-meaning your intentions. So all signs point to maintaining your own personal dining etiquette in the knowledge that you will not be judged (or held responsible) by the gaffes of your tablemate.
posted by Oriole Adams at 4:33 PM on December 29, 2011
posted by Oriole Adams at 4:33 PM on December 29, 2011
"Well, kid, we are going to a business lunch so you need to put your best foot forward. That means wearing a suit and tie, keeping your elbows off the table, and holding your fork the correct way. I'd hate to see a great career like yours held up by bad manners, so, let's do this thing right and impress them."
posted by Foam Pants at 5:02 PM on December 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Foam Pants at 5:02 PM on December 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
Good/bad manners are very much cultural and, frankly, often silly. The problem is that people tend to judge others based on something that is completely arbitrary - such as so-called rules of etiquette for eating. I'm afraid I'm very much in the minority in thinking this way though...
But having good manners and judging others are two different things. Having good manners is culturally dependent, but it does shows respect to someone's culture, family, religion, and general upbringing. I'm not advocating that one always has to eat with a knife and fork, even at a backyard barbecue. We're human beings, and therefore able to judge what is appropriate dependent on situation. So, just like cheek kissing vs. handshakes, this is dependent on context. The easiest way to sum it up is, "When in Rome, do as the Roman's do."
And someone already mentioned, Judith Martin (Ms. Manners) isn't one to judge others. One leads by example, not through badgering.
posted by FJT at 5:25 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
But having good manners and judging others are two different things. Having good manners is culturally dependent, but it does shows respect to someone's culture, family, religion, and general upbringing. I'm not advocating that one always has to eat with a knife and fork, even at a backyard barbecue. We're human beings, and therefore able to judge what is appropriate dependent on situation. So, just like cheek kissing vs. handshakes, this is dependent on context. The easiest way to sum it up is, "When in Rome, do as the Roman's do."
And someone already mentioned, Judith Martin (Ms. Manners) isn't one to judge others. One leads by example, not through badgering.
posted by FJT at 5:25 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I held my spoon like that when I was a kid and I couldn't for the life of me figure out why on earth anyone would give a damn.
I still can't.
posted by ropeladder at 5:31 PM on December 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
I still can't.
posted by ropeladder at 5:31 PM on December 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
I think you should bring it up somehow, in case he doesn't know he's doing it.
I held my utensils like that without realizing it all the way up to college. One day in the cafeteria, a friend started to mimic me, making exaggerated shoveling gestures. I still cringe when I recall that meal, but I'm grateful to him for demonstrating to me how silly I looked.
I still slip into that grip now and then, especially when eating awkward things. It feels much more natural to me, and honestly it took some practice to hold my utensils in a conventional grip and not spill food with every bite.
I also held my pencil funny until about the same time. I guess that means I'm special...
posted by beandip at 5:55 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I held my utensils like that without realizing it all the way up to college. One day in the cafeteria, a friend started to mimic me, making exaggerated shoveling gestures. I still cringe when I recall that meal, but I'm grateful to him for demonstrating to me how silly I looked.
I still slip into that grip now and then, especially when eating awkward things. It feels much more natural to me, and honestly it took some practice to hold my utensils in a conventional grip and not spill food with every bite.
I also held my pencil funny until about the same time. I guess that means I'm special...
posted by beandip at 5:55 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I held my spoon like that when I was a kid and I couldn't for the life of me figure out why on earth anyone would give a damn.
It's more like the opposite: the diner conforms to the local standards to show that he gives a damn. Someone who eats like a 3 year old gives the impression that they don't care.
posted by gjc at 6:08 PM on December 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
It's more like the opposite: the diner conforms to the local standards to show that he gives a damn. Someone who eats like a 3 year old gives the impression that they don't care.
posted by gjc at 6:08 PM on December 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
well it gives the impression that they don't care about the specific fingers that are conventionally used to grip an eating utensil. Which, tbf, is a totally arbitrary thing to care about
posted by Greener Backyards at 6:15 PM on December 29, 2011
posted by Greener Backyards at 6:15 PM on December 29, 2011
This would drive me insane, but I probably wouldn't say anything unless they were an old friend. Instead I would sit there and silently judge them, although the O RLY eyebrow of disapprobation might come into play.
posted by elizardbits at 6:34 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by elizardbits at 6:34 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm a former "holding my fork in my fist" person (until age 18).
I'm dyspraxic, so I've struggled with any kind of motor skills since I was tiny. Knife and fork stuff was totally one of the lowest of my parents' priorities in skills for me to focus on -- writing and such ranked higher. My first week of college, a girl told me I ate like I was in prison. I was UNBELIEVABLY mortified, and spent the rest of the week either eating things that I could eat without a fork and practicing how to hold my utensil in my dorm room.
Looking back, I'm amazed at how much tackier her comment was than me holding my fork wrong.
If you're going to do this, do this delicately -- but really, I think it might stem from a pretty classist place.
posted by superlibby at 6:38 PM on December 29, 2011 [7 favorites]
I'm dyspraxic, so I've struggled with any kind of motor skills since I was tiny. Knife and fork stuff was totally one of the lowest of my parents' priorities in skills for me to focus on -- writing and such ranked higher. My first week of college, a girl told me I ate like I was in prison. I was UNBELIEVABLY mortified, and spent the rest of the week either eating things that I could eat without a fork and practicing how to hold my utensil in my dorm room.
Looking back, I'm amazed at how much tackier her comment was than me holding my fork wrong.
If you're going to do this, do this delicately -- but really, I think it might stem from a pretty classist place.
posted by superlibby at 6:38 PM on December 29, 2011 [7 favorites]
Good/bad manners are very much cultural and, frankly, often silly. The problem is that people tend to judge others based on something that is completely arbitrary - such as so-called rules of etiquette for eating. I'm afraid I'm very much in the minority in thinking this way though...
This is about as beside the point as one can get when answering this question. Many things are socially constructed, what matters is the social construction where you are. If you're eating in the US, it doesn't matter how a Belgian holds their fork, or how someone for China keeps their mouth open when eating in Beijing. What matters is how people in the US expect someone to demonstrate their manners.
I don't think you're being a snob, but I would be less concerned with how this reflects on you, and more on how it reflects on your mentee. Only you really know whether or not this is something you can raise with him, or whether there just isn't a way that your friendship could survive it, but I think you should raise it with him in a way that lets him know that his table manners may be reflecting badly on him. (This assumes that you rule out neurological conditions.) If you can't do that, you should just decide to let it go.
(I normally listen to Miss Manners in all things, but I do think that male friends and associates may be able to discuss this delicate topic in a survivable way.)
posted by OmieWise at 6:45 PM on December 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
This is about as beside the point as one can get when answering this question. Many things are socially constructed, what matters is the social construction where you are. If you're eating in the US, it doesn't matter how a Belgian holds their fork, or how someone for China keeps their mouth open when eating in Beijing. What matters is how people in the US expect someone to demonstrate their manners.
I don't think you're being a snob, but I would be less concerned with how this reflects on you, and more on how it reflects on your mentee. Only you really know whether or not this is something you can raise with him, or whether there just isn't a way that your friendship could survive it, but I think you should raise it with him in a way that lets him know that his table manners may be reflecting badly on him. (This assumes that you rule out neurological conditions.) If you can't do that, you should just decide to let it go.
(I normally listen to Miss Manners in all things, but I do think that male friends and associates may be able to discuss this delicate topic in a survivable way.)
posted by OmieWise at 6:45 PM on December 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Whether how he holds the fork is a big deal or not, I cannot see it reflecting poorly on you. The Executive Vice President of Midwestern Financial Planning isn't thinking "Bob holds his fork incorrectly. Clearly, Jack is an unsuitable mentor."
posted by spaltavian at 7:22 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by spaltavian at 7:22 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'll use spaltavian's notation:
If the Executive Vice President of Financial Planning is a stickler for forknique, then Bob had better consider whether he wants to work at all in an environment controlled by the whacky-ass whims of the EVPFP because, if the EVPFP cares enough about this unimportant issue to have an opinion, then EVPFP is likely the sort of person who harbors all sorts of stupid prejudices about more important issues. If EVPFP is typical of people in Bob's field's high places, then Bob's mentor should be counseling Bob about how to work successfully in an environment dominated by this type of person, or how, specifically, to deal with EVPFP's tyrannical little weirdnesses without having to give in to any particularly silly demands. This actually seems like an incredibly fine line to walk and exactly the sort of thing about which Bob might wish to ask his mentor. I have known several people who suffered in their careers, despite being relatively socially competent and extremely good at the things listed in their job descriptions, because of inability to deal graciously with the fact that a managerial hierarchy elevates certain people to a position where their random human bullshit suddenly affects everyone. I might be off-base in thinking that the EVPFP's hypothetical fork-judgments are indicative of more sinister random human bullshit*, but I've seen first-hand that the ability to suffer fools dignifiedly is probably useful and the sort of skill a mentor would want to communicate.
Therefore: start the fork conversation in the manner advocated upthread, i.e. out of curiosity. You might learn something interesting about Bob. Then bring up the fact that some people are judgmental about these things, that being judgmental about these things is probably good evidence that someone is an asshole, and that the ability to maintain one's integrity and work effectively in the face of assholes is a super-important career skill. Then explain how to do this.
Also, IANAHNBAM, but I think spaltavian is exactly right.
*For example, I don't think the fact that the asker noticed Bob's fork-fisting is a sign of bigotry, just of awareness that any type of irrelevant judgment on the part of the hypothetical EVPFP is dangerous to Bob, about whose interest the asker -- who does not strike me as snobbish -- seems to have genuine concern.
posted by kengraham at 8:31 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
If the Executive Vice President of Financial Planning is a stickler for forknique, then Bob had better consider whether he wants to work at all in an environment controlled by the whacky-ass whims of the EVPFP because, if the EVPFP cares enough about this unimportant issue to have an opinion, then EVPFP is likely the sort of person who harbors all sorts of stupid prejudices about more important issues. If EVPFP is typical of people in Bob's field's high places, then Bob's mentor should be counseling Bob about how to work successfully in an environment dominated by this type of person, or how, specifically, to deal with EVPFP's tyrannical little weirdnesses without having to give in to any particularly silly demands. This actually seems like an incredibly fine line to walk and exactly the sort of thing about which Bob might wish to ask his mentor. I have known several people who suffered in their careers, despite being relatively socially competent and extremely good at the things listed in their job descriptions, because of inability to deal graciously with the fact that a managerial hierarchy elevates certain people to a position where their random human bullshit suddenly affects everyone. I might be off-base in thinking that the EVPFP's hypothetical fork-judgments are indicative of more sinister random human bullshit*, but I've seen first-hand that the ability to suffer fools dignifiedly is probably useful and the sort of skill a mentor would want to communicate.
Therefore: start the fork conversation in the manner advocated upthread, i.e. out of curiosity. You might learn something interesting about Bob. Then bring up the fact that some people are judgmental about these things, that being judgmental about these things is probably good evidence that someone is an asshole, and that the ability to maintain one's integrity and work effectively in the face of assholes is a super-important career skill. Then explain how to do this.
Also, IANAHNBAM, but I think spaltavian is exactly right.
*For example, I don't think the fact that the asker noticed Bob's fork-fisting is a sign of bigotry, just of awareness that any type of irrelevant judgment on the part of the hypothetical EVPFP is dangerous to Bob, about whose interest the asker -- who does not strike me as snobbish -- seems to have genuine concern.
posted by kengraham at 8:31 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Most cities offer "Business Etiquette" classes for execs/reps/pr folks who want to advance. These folks take the "my way or the highway" approach for instructional purposes, and usually don't mince words.
You know, I never heard of these before, but I think the perfect solution would be for you to suggest that you take a class like this together.
posted by Wordwoman at 8:39 PM on December 29, 2011
You know, I never heard of these before, but I think the perfect solution would be for you to suggest that you take a class like this together.
posted by Wordwoman at 8:39 PM on December 29, 2011
If he's your friend, can't you just ask why he does that? As in: [lull in the conversation] ... Hey, man, can I ask you something? Did you ever notice you hold your fork differently than everyone else?
I don't think that would be offensive. He might say, yeah, but do you think it matters? Then you can say, well, it looks kind of caveman-like... I was just wondering if you were doing that for a reason, that's all.
posted by ctmf at 8:42 PM on December 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
I don't think that would be offensive. He might say, yeah, but do you think it matters? Then you can say, well, it looks kind of caveman-like... I was just wondering if you were doing that for a reason, that's all.
posted by ctmf at 8:42 PM on December 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
My sister's boyfriend does that. They've lived together for months, and the other day at dinner I just noticed, and pointed it out, out of amusement [it made him seem endearing, for some reason]. Everyone looked down at his hand, and just went "huh." And then continued eating. Not only did no one notice the months and months they've eaten with him before that, no one cared, either.
posted by FirstMateKate at 8:55 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by FirstMateKate at 8:55 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Is s/he your child? If not, it doesn't reflect on you.
Pretend he has arthritis and let it go.
posted by clearlydemon at 10:09 PM on December 29, 2011
Pretend he has arthritis and let it go.
posted by clearlydemon at 10:09 PM on December 29, 2011
jedicus is potentially right. A friend of mine couldn't do it any other way, as he has fused forearm bones. He can't put his hand palm up to receive change, either.
posted by blue_wardrobe at 10:17 PM on December 29, 2011
posted by blue_wardrobe at 10:17 PM on December 29, 2011
See, IMO, this is one of those things that's weird but does not matter in any way. You can potentially screw your relationship up with this guy if you handle this insensitively. I just wouldn't go there.
posted by mleigh at 1:48 AM on December 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by mleigh at 1:48 AM on December 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm dyspraxic, so I don't hold my utensils 'correctly', as attempting to do so would mean making a bigger mess which would be a greater breach of etiquette. I have to ask for Western cutlery if I go out for noodles which makes me feel horribly gauche. Do you know your friend isn't in this position?
posted by mippy at 4:08 AM on December 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by mippy at 4:08 AM on December 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm going to go with you're overreacting. Do you routinely get embarrassed by what other people are doing? What makes you think your opinion of what they are doing should matter? Say something to your friend if it really bothers you, but if you said it to me, I'd tell you to get over yourself.
posted by emelenjr at 7:00 AM on December 30, 2011
posted by emelenjr at 7:00 AM on December 30, 2011
Nthing the others about the physical issue. Be very delicate. I'd clarify *why* this person was holding his fork like that first before saying anything about manners or how it reflects on him/you.
I have cerebral palsy, and thus my fine motor skills leave much to be desired. If someone asked me why I hold my fork a certain way I'd have no problem telling them. If they made assumptions and proceeded to 'correct' me I'd be very pissed off.
posted by aclevername at 8:05 AM on December 30, 2011
I have cerebral palsy, and thus my fine motor skills leave much to be desired. If someone asked me why I hold my fork a certain way I'd have no problem telling them. If they made assumptions and proceeded to 'correct' me I'd be very pissed off.
posted by aclevername at 8:05 AM on December 30, 2011
Eek. I pointed this out to a boyfriend once, and he sort of laughed it off and continued to eat that way (but I suspect that in his head he was thinking "that snooty, classist bitch"). I don't think it should bother you so much, and I don't really think that it will reflect poorly on you, but if I were you I would definitely worry that it would affect how other people see him. I'm honestly not sure whether there's a good way to bring it up with him or not - obviously if you do it, be sure to do it privately when others aren't watching, and do it as sensitively as possible. Someone above mentioned that Miss Manners says that it's ruder to point out other people's faux pas than it is to commit a faux pas, and I do agree with this, but I think she meant it mostly in the context of don't embarrass someone in front of others, don't be needlessly cruel, and don't do it just to assert your superiority - I could see a situation like this maaaaaybe being an exception...? I wouldn't do this to most of my friends, and in terms of work colleagues I think it would need to be someone with whom I had a pretty formalized mentor/mentee relationship beyond just "I'm older and he sort of looks up to me" for me to feel that it was my place. I like the idea of taking an etiquette class together.
posted by naoko at 6:30 PM on December 30, 2011
posted by naoko at 6:30 PM on December 30, 2011
Etiquette is such a tough topic, and I'd tread very carefully when bringing this particular table habit up. This person is looking for a job in the corporate sector? No matter how arbitrary it may be, we know that etiquette can easily make or break delicate paths to a position. That isn't likely to change anytime soon and, if he's serious about getting a job, he'll need to make the appropriate adjustments. I was trained in international and three nation-specific forms of etiquette before taking on an internship with a multinational...it worked in my favor. At the very least, it's knowledge that won't hurt his career. At the most, it will contribute to the image of professionalism that he seeks to project.
*small cough* Yes, it is also a class signifier that is used to identify those of lower classes in socioeconomic spaces and can contribute to exclusion, but since that wasn't your question, I won't rant about it...*shuffles away*
posted by Ashen at 6:46 AM on December 31, 2011
*small cough* Yes, it is also a class signifier that is used to identify those of lower classes in socioeconomic spaces and can contribute to exclusion, but since that wasn't your question, I won't rant about it...*shuffles away*
posted by Ashen at 6:46 AM on December 31, 2011
Have you talked to him about this? He may not even realize that he has poor table manners.
He doesn't have poor table manners, asnider. He simply has bad "form".
"Manners are a sensitive awareness of the feelings of others. If you have that awareness, you have good manners, no matter what fork you use." - Emily Post
posted by IAmBroom at 9:49 AM on January 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
He doesn't have poor table manners, asnider. He simply has bad "form".
"Manners are a sensitive awareness of the feelings of others. If you have that awareness, you have good manners, no matter what fork you use." - Emily Post
posted by IAmBroom at 9:49 AM on January 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by SPrintF at 2:52 PM on December 29, 2011 [10 favorites]