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December 22, 2011 1:12 PM Subscribe
Why do my significant other’s girlfriends dislike me?
My SO and I have been dating for ten months, living in sin for 6. We are very happy together: good communication, great sex, common goals, differing interests, plenty of alone time and space. We are both in our late twenties.
She has been trying to quit smoking for five months (she hid that from me until after we moved in together and I am committed to supporting her efforts to quit). She is from the area and all of her family lives nearby, or in a neighboring state. She is a successful 2L at a prestigious university in the area.
Her closest girlfriend in the area is her ex-boyfriend’s cousin, who is also a smoker. This local friend has a college degree, boring corporate office job that she hates, and seems to gravitate towards men whom she can dominate. She tends to have a new relationship every few weeks and is an avid drinker.
This girl also forms the bedrock for my SO’s local circle of friends: the group is uniformly late-blooming and each member is in his late 20s or early 30s, struggling to finish his (or her) BA, and drinks/smokes heavily. Suburban nightclubs, gimmicky chain restaurants, etc form the backdrop for their outings.
My SO’s best friend lives 300 miles away in a larger city and is also a smoker, has a college degree but is unemployed and goes from man to man (she also made a physical pass at me during one of our visits while my SO was sleeping—I shared this fact with my SO and she didn’t believe me). This out of town best friend is one of those Occupy(Insert City Name) types who wears her heart on her sleeve and thinks I’m a fascist/anti-poor jerk. (I’m a HS teacher!)
Lately in the last three months, her friends have been pressuring her not to quit smoking and to spend less time with me and my friends. I give my SO a wide berth to spend as much time as she likes with her friends and occasionally join her if invited, but I do insist that she quit smoking before we take any more steps towards firmer commitment in the relationship. I can see that the differences between my lifestyle and choices and those of her circle of friends are enormous and can only continue to grow more glaring.
Her friends have begun feeding her the line that I am controlling and steering her towards a future without them. They encourage her to do things that damage my ability to trust my SO (smoking and lying about it, not coming home at night, loaning them money for cigarettes/alcohol). I realize that a lot of this behavior lies in my SO’s hands, but I feel that her friends are largely responsible for it because it only occurs when they are around. They are the enablers, triggers, and fuel for these decisions.
I have taken a hands-off approach to my SO’s smoking and simply trust her to make it happen, much the way I don’t worry too much about how often and when she sees her friends—if someone truly loves you, you can let them go and they’ll come right back to you. But I am deeply worried that her friends are putting the brakes on our relationship and are encouraging her to get rid of me in favor of Mr Cool, a Camel, or the Marlboro Man. What am I to do?
My SO and I have been dating for ten months, living in sin for 6. We are very happy together: good communication, great sex, common goals, differing interests, plenty of alone time and space. We are both in our late twenties.
She has been trying to quit smoking for five months (she hid that from me until after we moved in together and I am committed to supporting her efforts to quit). She is from the area and all of her family lives nearby, or in a neighboring state. She is a successful 2L at a prestigious university in the area.
Her closest girlfriend in the area is her ex-boyfriend’s cousin, who is also a smoker. This local friend has a college degree, boring corporate office job that she hates, and seems to gravitate towards men whom she can dominate. She tends to have a new relationship every few weeks and is an avid drinker.
This girl also forms the bedrock for my SO’s local circle of friends: the group is uniformly late-blooming and each member is in his late 20s or early 30s, struggling to finish his (or her) BA, and drinks/smokes heavily. Suburban nightclubs, gimmicky chain restaurants, etc form the backdrop for their outings.
My SO’s best friend lives 300 miles away in a larger city and is also a smoker, has a college degree but is unemployed and goes from man to man (she also made a physical pass at me during one of our visits while my SO was sleeping—I shared this fact with my SO and she didn’t believe me). This out of town best friend is one of those Occupy(Insert City Name) types who wears her heart on her sleeve and thinks I’m a fascist/anti-poor jerk. (I’m a HS teacher!)
Lately in the last three months, her friends have been pressuring her not to quit smoking and to spend less time with me and my friends. I give my SO a wide berth to spend as much time as she likes with her friends and occasionally join her if invited, but I do insist that she quit smoking before we take any more steps towards firmer commitment in the relationship. I can see that the differences between my lifestyle and choices and those of her circle of friends are enormous and can only continue to grow more glaring.
Her friends have begun feeding her the line that I am controlling and steering her towards a future without them. They encourage her to do things that damage my ability to trust my SO (smoking and lying about it, not coming home at night, loaning them money for cigarettes/alcohol). I realize that a lot of this behavior lies in my SO’s hands, but I feel that her friends are largely responsible for it because it only occurs when they are around. They are the enablers, triggers, and fuel for these decisions.
I have taken a hands-off approach to my SO’s smoking and simply trust her to make it happen, much the way I don’t worry too much about how often and when she sees her friends—if someone truly loves you, you can let them go and they’ll come right back to you. But I am deeply worried that her friends are putting the brakes on our relationship and are encouraging her to get rid of me in favor of Mr Cool, a Camel, or the Marlboro Man. What am I to do?
Shot in the dark here... maybe her friends don't like you because you're judgmental.
posted by trunk muffins at 1:19 PM on December 22, 2011 [18 favorites]
posted by trunk muffins at 1:19 PM on December 22, 2011 [18 favorites]
Her closest girlfriend in the area is her ex-boyfriend’s cousin, who is also a smoker. This local friend has a college degree, boring corporate office job that she hates, and seems to gravitate towards men whom she can dominate. She tends to have a new relationship every few weeks and is an avid drinker.Do they know that you think and talk about them in such judgmental, scornful, dismissive terms? Because that would be enough reason right there. If you're this negative about them, why would they extend themselves to make nice with you?
This girl also forms the bedrock for my SO’s local circle of friends: the group is uniformly late-blooming and each member is in his late 20s or early 30s, struggling to finish his (or her) BA, and drinks/smokes heavily. Suburban nightclubs, gimmicky chain restaurants, etc form the backdrop for their outings.
My SO’s best friend lives 300 miles away in a larger city and is also a smoker, has a college degree but is unemployed and goes from man to man (she also made a physical pass at me during one of our visits while my SO was sleeping—I shared this fact with my SO and she didn’t believe me). This out of town best friend is one of those Occupy(Insert City Name) types who wears her heart on her sleeve and thinks I’m a fascist/anti-poor jerk. (I’m a HS teacher!)
posted by jon1270 at 1:19 PM on December 22, 2011 [7 favorites]
From what you've written here, her friends sound pretty... right? You have a huge amount of contempt for them, and you "can see that the differences between my lifestyle and choices and those of her circle of friends are enormous and can only continue to grow more glaring", you also hold them partially responsible as enablers and triggers for things that you consider to be deal breakers. Your SO is who she is, and she's not going to change just because you want her to, and trying to get her to, and considering basically everyone else in her life to be a late-blooming, beneath you in their tastes, enablers, IS pretty much controlling. Let it go or let her go.
posted by brainmouse at 1:20 PM on December 22, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by brainmouse at 1:20 PM on December 22, 2011 [7 favorites]
Sounds like you think you're better than her, and better than her friends. So why not find who you think is a better person for you?
posted by oceanjesse at 1:22 PM on December 22, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by oceanjesse at 1:22 PM on December 22, 2011 [7 favorites]
Wow, you sure are contemptuous as hell of her friends! Now, they might be jackasses -- who tries to keep someone from quitting smoking?! -- but you don't sound at all like you're taking the high road on this:
"gimmicky chain restaurants"
"goes from man to man"
"wears her heart on her sleeve"
"uniformly late-blooming"
"struggling to finish his (or her) BA"
You clearly and openly dislike these people and their lifestyles. If you're acting like this when you are actually around them, are you really surprised they don't like you either?
posted by griphus at 1:22 PM on December 22, 2011 [20 favorites]
"gimmicky chain restaurants"
"goes from man to man"
"wears her heart on her sleeve"
"uniformly late-blooming"
"struggling to finish his (or her) BA"
You clearly and openly dislike these people and their lifestyles. If you're acting like this when you are actually around them, are you really surprised they don't like you either?
posted by griphus at 1:22 PM on December 22, 2011 [20 favorites]
The tone's a thing, but they are really pressuring her to keep smoking? That is something I have never heard of outside of an after school special.
Are you sure they are not saying "You don't have to quit smoking because your boyfriend demands it." rather than "You should keep smoking, stop being a wimp." because those are two very different things to say that you'd probably describe the same way.
There's so much going on in this question, but that was what stood out to me. Also she hid that she smoked until you'd moved in together? This whole thing has many strange sides.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 1:24 PM on December 22, 2011 [14 favorites]
Are you sure they are not saying "You don't have to quit smoking because your boyfriend demands it." rather than "You should keep smoking, stop being a wimp." because those are two very different things to say that you'd probably describe the same way.
There's so much going on in this question, but that was what stood out to me. Also she hid that she smoked until you'd moved in together? This whole thing has many strange sides.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 1:24 PM on December 22, 2011 [14 favorites]
Also, regardless of who is right and wrong and any moral judgement aside, it certainly sounds like you are trying to steer her to a future without them, whether you are realizing it or not.
posted by griphus at 1:25 PM on December 22, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by griphus at 1:25 PM on December 22, 2011 [6 favorites]
Wow, I'm not a smoker and I really really dislike smoking and it is extremely weird to me how focused you are on the fact that all of these people are smokers. I would say that alone is probably enough to make them not like you.
A difference in lifestyle is not a big deal - but you seem very very focused on the fact that these people are not as "mature" as you are, and if we can tell that from reading a few paragraphs on the internet there is no doubt they can see it as well.
posted by something something at 1:28 PM on December 22, 2011 [24 favorites]
A difference in lifestyle is not a big deal - but you seem very very focused on the fact that these people are not as "mature" as you are, and if we can tell that from reading a few paragraphs on the internet there is no doubt they can see it as well.
posted by something something at 1:28 PM on December 22, 2011 [24 favorites]
Her friends have begun feeding her the line that I am controlling and steering her towards a future without them. They encourage her to do things that damage my ability to trust my SO (smoking and lying about it, not coming home at night, loaning them money for cigarettes/alcohol). I realize that a lot of this behavior lies in my SO’s hands, but I feel that her friends are largely responsible for it because it only occurs when they are around. They are the enablers, triggers, and fuel for these decisions.
This really feels like an after school special. Also, you totally are steering her toward a life without them. It's not a line. You're really clear that you think they're bad and making her bad.
You either need to own up to it and have a productive conversation without being a condescending and demanding person or let it (and maybe her) go.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 1:28 PM on December 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
This really feels like an after school special. Also, you totally are steering her toward a life without them. It's not a line. You're really clear that you think they're bad and making her bad.
You either need to own up to it and have a productive conversation without being a condescending and demanding person or let it (and maybe her) go.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 1:28 PM on December 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
OP, I think you're getting enough backlash here based on your phrasing. I have had similar feelings in the context of a relationship or two in the past, and I know how difficult it is to separate annoyance at genuine social slights and bad behavior from the emotions that accompany reacting to them.
Either your SO is going to grow out of this circle of friends or you're going to grow out of her. I suggest settling with yourself on an acceptable timetable for the former while making the latter less of a shock if and when it happens.
The tone's a thing, but they are really pressuring her to keep smoking?
People don't pressure their friends to smoke as such, but pressure to smoke as an adjunct to spending time with a smoker is definitely a thing. Catty people find it especially helpful because it's a way to do an activity that cuts out non-smokers who said catty people dislike. I've seen this in a number of situations, and it sounds ridiculous, but people will do pretty much anything to get the benefit of a cut direct without suffering the consequences.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 1:30 PM on December 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
Either your SO is going to grow out of this circle of friends or you're going to grow out of her. I suggest settling with yourself on an acceptable timetable for the former while making the latter less of a shock if and when it happens.
The tone's a thing, but they are really pressuring her to keep smoking?
People don't pressure their friends to smoke as such, but pressure to smoke as an adjunct to spending time with a smoker is definitely a thing. Catty people find it especially helpful because it's a way to do an activity that cuts out non-smokers who said catty people dislike. I've seen this in a number of situations, and it sounds ridiculous, but people will do pretty much anything to get the benefit of a cut direct without suffering the consequences.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 1:30 PM on December 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
You hate her friends, and you lord a bad habit over her like it's the worst thing ever. Given your smoking obsession and holding your relationship hostage to it and loathing the people she likes and wants to spend time with and identifies with, how can you claim to like her? You want her to be an entirely different person.
Just go get a different person who's what you want. This is creepy and manipulative and doomed.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:31 PM on December 22, 2011 [16 favorites]
Just go get a different person who's what you want. This is creepy and manipulative and doomed.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:31 PM on December 22, 2011 [16 favorites]
You seem very obsessed with smoking. I assume she's decided to stop smoking because of your obsession. Are you going to break up with her if she doesn't successfully quit?
posted by Kloryne at 1:33 PM on December 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Kloryne at 1:33 PM on December 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
Are they actually telling her not to quit smoking or are they just leaving her with the choice of sitting around on her own while they all go out to smoke or standing around smelling their smoke and trying not to want one herself? If she's the only non-smoker they really don't need to be actively doing anything (other than choosing not to quit) to 'encourage' her to keep smoking.
As to why they don't like you - either they can tell you look down on them because you've made different life choices than them or just because you're so different to them (and your girlfriend by the sounds of it) and they don't like different.
posted by missmagenta at 1:35 PM on December 22, 2011
As to why they don't like you - either they can tell you look down on them because you've made different life choices than them or just because you're so different to them (and your girlfriend by the sounds of it) and they don't like different.
posted by missmagenta at 1:35 PM on December 22, 2011
I think getting a girlfriend to stop smoking, teaching high school, avoid chain restaurants and giving your SO lots of space is all awesome stuff. And yet, based on the way you wrote this, I don't like you (although I suspect it's just the tone you've taken here.)
It's likely not the way you are every day, but you're angry with them and think of them as holding her back/dragging her down. Except, they're still her friends. We're not talking about a group of people she grew up with and is trying to distance herself from -- her *best friend* and the active center of her friend group.
You want to believe your SO is one kind of person, and maybe she puts that face on for you as one side of herself, but if she has those kind of friends and she likes them and she's trying to be something she's not to make you happy, um, you are a controlling person who's changing her, even if you didn't start out trying for that.
So, ask yourself, is this really about her friends? Or is this something you're afraid of her being?
posted by Gucky at 1:36 PM on December 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
It's likely not the way you are every day, but you're angry with them and think of them as holding her back/dragging her down. Except, they're still her friends. We're not talking about a group of people she grew up with and is trying to distance herself from -- her *best friend* and the active center of her friend group.
You want to believe your SO is one kind of person, and maybe she puts that face on for you as one side of herself, but if she has those kind of friends and she likes them and she's trying to be something she's not to make you happy, um, you are a controlling person who's changing her, even if you didn't start out trying for that.
So, ask yourself, is this really about her friends? Or is this something you're afraid of her being?
posted by Gucky at 1:36 PM on December 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
If this is simply about not wanting to go further with her unless she stops smoking, then I commend you for that. But, don't make it about anything else other than that. Don't make it about her friends, her influences, etc. If you need to her stop smoking before you can move on, then focus on that; and only that.
It IS weird, though, that she hid smoking from you for five months. Not sure what that says about her, actually.
DTMFA.
posted by TinWhistle at 1:41 PM on December 22, 2011 [7 favorites]
It IS weird, though, that she hid smoking from you for five months. Not sure what that says about her, actually.
DTMFA.
posted by TinWhistle at 1:41 PM on December 22, 2011 [7 favorites]
Date the person who exists, not the non-smoking potential girlfriend.
Also: is loaning people money for cigarettes and alcohol somehow against the rules?
posted by small_ruminant at 1:41 PM on December 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Also: is loaning people money for cigarettes and alcohol somehow against the rules?
posted by small_ruminant at 1:41 PM on December 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
if smoking is a deal breaker, time to be upfront about that. she's been "trying to quit" for half of your relationship. i'd bet she'd never say she was trying if you didn't make such a big deal out of it. you should look at this relationship through the lens of "she'll always be a smoker" and decide how you feel about it.
also, if i were her friend, and she told me that her boyfriend described having a smoke and lying about it as "breaking his trust," i'd tell her that seemed weirdly controlling and fatherly. i'd double down on that advice if the money she's loaning is hers and not shared between you.
posted by nadawi at 1:45 PM on December 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
also, if i were her friend, and she told me that her boyfriend described having a smoke and lying about it as "breaking his trust," i'd tell her that seemed weirdly controlling and fatherly. i'd double down on that advice if the money she's loaning is hers and not shared between you.
posted by nadawi at 1:45 PM on December 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
I hope you are not a teacher in my kid's school district. You need to relax. Either she is or isn't right for you, but trying to change her and control her will do neither of you any good.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:50 PM on December 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:50 PM on December 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
Longshot, but if you are who I think you are: you need to give this smoking thing a rest. Obviously, your reaction to her smoking is not helping her quit and won't help her quit. Either decide that this is a dealbreaker and end the relationship, or take another approach to supporting her. I've never experienced this level of animosity/obsession towards my smoking when I smoked, and I dated a few dudes who were totally against cigarettes; I would find your attitude, frankly, to be controlling and aggravating.
This level of focus on her smoking is probably coming off as hugely judgmental and unhelpful, which is NOT helping her quit, and is probably making her friends rally around her, in opposition to you.
posted by vivid postcard at 1:53 PM on December 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
This level of focus on her smoking is probably coming off as hugely judgmental and unhelpful, which is NOT helping her quit, and is probably making her friends rally around her, in opposition to you.
posted by vivid postcard at 1:53 PM on December 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
You sound kinda Type A, like you measure your life by accomplishing certain milestones at certain times, which is why her late blooming friends made a very bad impression with you. Being Type A isn't a bad thing. You've probably been lucky and not had the setbacks/temperament that would hamper your progress.
Perhaps you are rigid in your thinking that your lifestyle is superior, and you have certain things planned out and high expectations for yourself and others to meet. I would try to relax that, and be more accepting of others who are taking the scenic route in life. Be more open to learning from your girlfriend's friends, because they surely know things that you don't. Ask them questions. Try to get them to open up.
As far as the quitting smoking thing goes, either it will happen or it won't. Encourage your girlfriend, but know how much struggling you are willing to tolerate, and when your bang-out level is if she can't sustain quitting. I live with a roommate who has been trying to quit for 2 years now. If he were my boyfriend this would not be tolerable. He gets super moody from nicotine withdrawal when he's on a quitting spree.
If smoking is that much of a deal breaker, don't live with her until she's been smoke/nicotine free for at least a month.
posted by griselda at 1:53 PM on December 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
Perhaps you are rigid in your thinking that your lifestyle is superior, and you have certain things planned out and high expectations for yourself and others to meet. I would try to relax that, and be more accepting of others who are taking the scenic route in life. Be more open to learning from your girlfriend's friends, because they surely know things that you don't. Ask them questions. Try to get them to open up.
As far as the quitting smoking thing goes, either it will happen or it won't. Encourage your girlfriend, but know how much struggling you are willing to tolerate, and when your bang-out level is if she can't sustain quitting. I live with a roommate who has been trying to quit for 2 years now. If he were my boyfriend this would not be tolerable. He gets super moody from nicotine withdrawal when he's on a quitting spree.
If smoking is that much of a deal breaker, don't live with her until she's been smoke/nicotine free for at least a month.
posted by griselda at 1:53 PM on December 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, ease back on the tough love and just answer the question. If you can't do it without insulting people, just keep moving. Thank you,
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:58 PM on December 22, 2011
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:58 PM on December 22, 2011
You do sound a bit controlling and judgmental. I say to judge away, this is what judging is for, but prepare to suffer the consequences. I have many of the same attitudes as you about smoking and chain restaurants. You probably care a whole lot on what other people think. You might be afraid you don't have your act completely together and looking down on these people is a way to make yourself feel better. You don't want to associate with smokers, or eat in chain restaurants, because people (strangers or mere aquaintances) might think you actually approve of such things. From your post I gather you don't want a girlfriend who smokes because this is what uneducated people do who are floundering and clueless. These kind of people don't match your lifestyle, or perceived lifestyle, of a healthy and educated person with a discriminating palate. People are going to think you are uptight and snobbish.
Since these smokers are her friends and you don't have to be around them, I would try to relax a bit. If you are hyperfocused on her friends and how they are dragging her down, you are going to alienate her. If you want them to like you, I would try to get to know them more and try to find some good instead of focusing on the bad. Try to cultivate some good feelings for them and notice their positive qualities. This shift in attitude does wonders. I tend to be cynical and judgmental but when I try to find the good and focus on the positive, everybody is a lot happier. Obviously you seem to be very fond of your girlfriend and see a great a deal in her despite her smoking. Try the same for them. Their behavior is not going to taint your perceived image.
If you are pressuring your girlfriend to stop smoking and when asked about smoking she is compelled to lie, you are being controlling. This is not productive or helpful.
Good luck.
posted by Fairchild at 2:05 PM on December 22, 2011 [7 favorites]
Since these smokers are her friends and you don't have to be around them, I would try to relax a bit. If you are hyperfocused on her friends and how they are dragging her down, you are going to alienate her. If you want them to like you, I would try to get to know them more and try to find some good instead of focusing on the bad. Try to cultivate some good feelings for them and notice their positive qualities. This shift in attitude does wonders. I tend to be cynical and judgmental but when I try to find the good and focus on the positive, everybody is a lot happier. Obviously you seem to be very fond of your girlfriend and see a great a deal in her despite her smoking. Try the same for them. Their behavior is not going to taint your perceived image.
If you are pressuring your girlfriend to stop smoking and when asked about smoking she is compelled to lie, you are being controlling. This is not productive or helpful.
Good luck.
posted by Fairchild at 2:05 PM on December 22, 2011 [7 favorites]
Why do my significant other’s girlfriends dislike me?
You do know they've been asking your girlfriend why you dislike them so much, right?
This whole conflict doesn't have much to do with smoking, by the way. It has to do with the fact that you believe these people are beneath contempt, and that your girlfriend belongs in Your World and not Their World. As little as you think of them, they're not so stupid that they haven't figured this out.
posted by scody at 2:06 PM on December 22, 2011 [16 favorites]
You do know they've been asking your girlfriend why you dislike them so much, right?
This whole conflict doesn't have much to do with smoking, by the way. It has to do with the fact that you believe these people are beneath contempt, and that your girlfriend belongs in Your World and not Their World. As little as you think of them, they're not so stupid that they haven't figured this out.
posted by scody at 2:06 PM on December 22, 2011 [16 favorites]
Either accept that your girlfriend is a smoker, that she has a lot of friends who are smokers, and that her friends have lifestyles that aren't entirely congenial to your preferences ... or get a new girlfriend. (And I mean really accept it, not just say you accept it but then take a lot of oblique potshots at it.)
You seem to condition your commitment to her on quitting smoking. I think that's a problem. If you can't accept your girlfriend as she is now, you shouldn't be together. Face it: she's a cigarette smoker. If you want to find a girlfriend who isn't a cigarette smoker, that should be relatively easy; most people aren't. It's fine to hope that she'll quite some day. But most of the time, cigarette smokers are addicted. Most of the time, they keep smoking. So your girlfriend is very likely to keep on smoking, even though she is able to tell you sincerely, rationally, that it would be best if she quit. You have to decide what's right for you given this imperfect reality.
posted by John Cohen at 2:16 PM on December 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
You seem to condition your commitment to her on quitting smoking. I think that's a problem. If you can't accept your girlfriend as she is now, you shouldn't be together. Face it: she's a cigarette smoker. If you want to find a girlfriend who isn't a cigarette smoker, that should be relatively easy; most people aren't. It's fine to hope that she'll quite some day. But most of the time, cigarette smokers are addicted. Most of the time, they keep smoking. So your girlfriend is very likely to keep on smoking, even though she is able to tell you sincerely, rationally, that it would be best if she quit. You have to decide what's right for you given this imperfect reality.
posted by John Cohen at 2:16 PM on December 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
Her friends and the smoking are your red herrings.
You clearly dislike and/or disapprove of the people she chooses to spend her time with, but those people are the people your GF likes and the things that she does that you do *not* like are things that she apparently *does* like doing or at least is going to continue doing.
People don't exist in a vacuum, and you can't change someone or hope that they'll change themselves.
If you don't like your GF as she is now and you can't accept the people with whom she likes to spend time, then you need to move on.
posted by mrs. taters at 2:17 PM on December 22, 2011 [6 favorites]
You clearly dislike and/or disapprove of the people she chooses to spend her time with, but those people are the people your GF likes and the things that she does that you do *not* like are things that she apparently *does* like doing or at least is going to continue doing.
People don't exist in a vacuum, and you can't change someone or hope that they'll change themselves.
If you don't like your GF as she is now and you can't accept the people with whom she likes to spend time, then you need to move on.
posted by mrs. taters at 2:17 PM on December 22, 2011 [6 favorites]
I had this really long response about late-bloomers and stuff, but then I saw jessamyn's reprimand and decided to revise the whole thing.
We've already established that your GF's buddies hate you because you're condescending and self-righteous. We don't need to kick that dead horse anymore.
So, it's probably better to talk about solutions. Here are some of my suggestions:
1. Never speak another bad opinion about any of her friends in her presence ever again. Even if she asks your opinion. Apologize to her and tell her that you want to be less judging in the New Year. "I don't really know them deeply enough to have an opinion about XYZ." Even if you don't really think it, pretend you do.
2. Stop pressuring her to quit smoking. It's her schedule. Let it be her schedule. If it's that big a deal breaker for you, it might be time to find a partner who doesn't smoke. You seem really fixated on the smoking part.
3. Remember that we're all pathetic slobs trying to muddle our way through life the best we can. Every Man Jack and Woman Jill of us has problems. Very few of us are rock stars. Compassion is the word of the day.
4. Many people, through no fault of their own, are seeking further education after the age of 22. Most people don't finish a bachelor's degree in four years these days, especially if they're going to state schools where education budgets are being cut. Some people work full time and try to go to school at the same time, which extends a time frame for that BA out quite a number of years. More compassion wins the day.
5. Learn more about these people. They're not their habits. It seems you could learn more about these people and why your GF likes them. If you take the time to get to know them specifically, you'll go a long ways toward bridging the gulf between you. What does your GF see in them? What does she find awesome about them?
Maybe one of these days, hang out with your GF and her group of friends and try to have fun. Buy a round for everyone. Be the only sober guy at karaoke. You might like them if you gave them a chance. Think of them as her strange extended family. She's more likely to give you up than them. So, if you're with her, you might as well get to know them.
Can you name the members of her group? Do you like ANY of them? Start there. Surely, you can like one or two of them.
posted by phoebus at 2:19 PM on December 22, 2011 [24 favorites]
We've already established that your GF's buddies hate you because you're condescending and self-righteous. We don't need to kick that dead horse anymore.
So, it's probably better to talk about solutions. Here are some of my suggestions:
1. Never speak another bad opinion about any of her friends in her presence ever again. Even if she asks your opinion. Apologize to her and tell her that you want to be less judging in the New Year. "I don't really know them deeply enough to have an opinion about XYZ." Even if you don't really think it, pretend you do.
2. Stop pressuring her to quit smoking. It's her schedule. Let it be her schedule. If it's that big a deal breaker for you, it might be time to find a partner who doesn't smoke. You seem really fixated on the smoking part.
3. Remember that we're all pathetic slobs trying to muddle our way through life the best we can. Every Man Jack and Woman Jill of us has problems. Very few of us are rock stars. Compassion is the word of the day.
4. Many people, through no fault of their own, are seeking further education after the age of 22. Most people don't finish a bachelor's degree in four years these days, especially if they're going to state schools where education budgets are being cut. Some people work full time and try to go to school at the same time, which extends a time frame for that BA out quite a number of years. More compassion wins the day.
5. Learn more about these people. They're not their habits. It seems you could learn more about these people and why your GF likes them. If you take the time to get to know them specifically, you'll go a long ways toward bridging the gulf between you. What does your GF see in them? What does she find awesome about them?
Maybe one of these days, hang out with your GF and her group of friends and try to have fun. Buy a round for everyone. Be the only sober guy at karaoke. You might like them if you gave them a chance. Think of them as her strange extended family. She's more likely to give you up than them. So, if you're with her, you might as well get to know them.
Can you name the members of her group? Do you like ANY of them? Start there. Surely, you can like one or two of them.
posted by phoebus at 2:19 PM on December 22, 2011 [24 favorites]
Can we get off the OP's back about the smoking thing? She lied to him about it in the first place or he probably wouldn't have wasted his time dating her. THAT is why it bugs him. She pulled a bait and switch on him.
And yes, as someone who is recently cutting back with the final goal to quit smoking, smokers can be very weird about smokers leaving the fold. All of my non smoking friends are thrilled that I'm quitting. I was really surprised that some of my smoking friends were pretty "meh" about it. So I could see where they aren't going to be supportive of her, I'm living it right now. Pretty strange and it makes me kind of re-evaluate those friendships.
Overall though, there is too much difference here between what you want and who your girlfriend is. Obviously the smoking does bother you and you should stand by your deal breakers and try to find someone more compatible. Good luck!
posted by NoraCharles at 2:27 PM on December 22, 2011 [6 favorites]
And yes, as someone who is recently cutting back with the final goal to quit smoking, smokers can be very weird about smokers leaving the fold. All of my non smoking friends are thrilled that I'm quitting. I was really surprised that some of my smoking friends were pretty "meh" about it. So I could see where they aren't going to be supportive of her, I'm living it right now. Pretty strange and it makes me kind of re-evaluate those friendships.
Overall though, there is too much difference here between what you want and who your girlfriend is. Obviously the smoking does bother you and you should stand by your deal breakers and try to find someone more compatible. Good luck!
posted by NoraCharles at 2:27 PM on December 22, 2011 [6 favorites]
I have taken a hands-off approach to my SO’s smoking and simply trust her to make it happen
Really? Let's see:
But I am deeply worried that her friends are putting the brakes on our relationship and are encouraging her to get rid of me in favor of Mr Cool, a Camel, or the Marlboro Man. What am I to do?
Stop obsessing about your girlfriend's smoking and her friends' lifestyle and (likely) the background that your girlfriend comes from. Instead integrate her and her friends into you life, because it is your shared life. And if you can't do that, you guys should break up.
posted by deanc at 2:35 PM on December 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Really? Let's see:
She has been trying to quit smokingI don't care how "hands off" you think you're being about this. You're clearly fixated on the smoking issue, and no matter how hands-off you try to act about it, your contempt for smoking and smokers is coming through and probably manifests itself around your girlfriend and her friends. They pick up on this, and it results in contempt for you.
Her closest girlfriend in the area is her ex-boyfriend’s cousin, who is also a smoker.
each member is in his late 20s or early 30s, struggling to finish his (or her) BA, and drinks/smokes heavily.
My SO’s best friend lives 300 miles away in a larger city and is also a smoker,
her friends have been pressuring her not to quit smoking
I do insist that she quit smoking
But I am deeply worried that her friends are putting the brakes on our relationship and are encouraging her to get rid of me in favor of Mr Cool, a Camel, or the Marlboro Man. What am I to do?
Stop obsessing about your girlfriend's smoking and her friends' lifestyle and (likely) the background that your girlfriend comes from. Instead integrate her and her friends into you life, because it is your shared life. And if you can't do that, you guys should break up.
posted by deanc at 2:35 PM on December 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
I have taken a hands-off approach to my SO’s smoking and simply trust her to make it happen
This is not true. You've made her quitting a requirement before getting more serious, which is the polar opposite of hands-off.
OP, my first husband hid the fact that he was a smoker from me until after we were married. Really. When he finally admitted it, I asked him why I had never seen him smoke, and he said "I knew you wouldn't like it." Well, exactly.
That relationship ended for a whole host of reasons, but as far as I know, he still smokes. He's a smoker. Your girlfriend is a smoker. You can either accept that, or decide that you don't want to be in relationship with a smoker and end things. But insisting she quit before you take any steps toward a firmer commitment will doom you to relationship purgatory. Making things contingent on someone else's behavior is not a recipe for happiness.
If a girlfriend of mine told me that her SO insists that she do _______ before he takes any firmer steps toward commitment, that would send up a big red flag for me. It doesn't matter what the behavior is: quitting smoking, losing ten pounds, getting a tattoo, removing a tattoo, learning to walk on burning coals, whatever. The demand smacks of a quid pro quo mindset that would make me really uncomfortable and I would probably tell her so. It's quite possible that your SO's friends think that pressuring her to quit smoking (which is what you are doing) in that kind of way makes you an asshole.
posted by ambrosia at 2:36 PM on December 22, 2011 [7 favorites]
This is not true. You've made her quitting a requirement before getting more serious, which is the polar opposite of hands-off.
OP, my first husband hid the fact that he was a smoker from me until after we were married. Really. When he finally admitted it, I asked him why I had never seen him smoke, and he said "I knew you wouldn't like it." Well, exactly.
That relationship ended for a whole host of reasons, but as far as I know, he still smokes. He's a smoker. Your girlfriend is a smoker. You can either accept that, or decide that you don't want to be in relationship with a smoker and end things. But insisting she quit before you take any steps toward a firmer commitment will doom you to relationship purgatory. Making things contingent on someone else's behavior is not a recipe for happiness.
If a girlfriend of mine told me that her SO insists that she do _______ before he takes any firmer steps toward commitment, that would send up a big red flag for me. It doesn't matter what the behavior is: quitting smoking, losing ten pounds, getting a tattoo, removing a tattoo, learning to walk on burning coals, whatever. The demand smacks of a quid pro quo mindset that would make me really uncomfortable and I would probably tell her so. It's quite possible that your SO's friends think that pressuring her to quit smoking (which is what you are doing) in that kind of way makes you an asshole.
posted by ambrosia at 2:36 PM on December 22, 2011 [7 favorites]
Why do my significant other’s girlfriends dislike me?
I don't know and neither does anyone else in this thread.
You need to ask your girlfriend or one of the friends. Doesn't have to be anything big or dramatic. Just a "Hey so and so, it's sounding like I'm messing up some how, should I be doing something different with my girlfriend?" They may or may not tell you and even if they do, you don't have to take their advice. But at least you'll have a good idea of where to go with it the information.
This is very telling though: "I can see that the differences between my lifestyle and choices and those of her circle of friends are enormous and can only continue to grow more glaring."
Her support group was there before you and they'll be there if you leave. In the meantime, ya'll should be getting along and if ya'll aren't, then the relationship doesn't have much a future. If your gf has to constantly choose between the people who love her, that's just going to wear her down and make her unhappy.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:41 PM on December 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
I don't know and neither does anyone else in this thread.
You need to ask your girlfriend or one of the friends. Doesn't have to be anything big or dramatic. Just a "Hey so and so, it's sounding like I'm messing up some how, should I be doing something different with my girlfriend?" They may or may not tell you and even if they do, you don't have to take their advice. But at least you'll have a good idea of where to go with it the information.
This is very telling though: "I can see that the differences between my lifestyle and choices and those of her circle of friends are enormous and can only continue to grow more glaring."
Her support group was there before you and they'll be there if you leave. In the meantime, ya'll should be getting along and if ya'll aren't, then the relationship doesn't have much a future. If your gf has to constantly choose between the people who love her, that's just going to wear her down and make her unhappy.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:41 PM on December 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
Least we forget that cigarette smoking is an addicition, a diesease, you should have some compassion for her. And as a smoker, if a significant other was harping on me to quit, I would probably lie about it too. Why? Because you probably have no experience with having a serious addicition and the implications that go with it. Many people try and try again to smoke. It isn't easy. Own up to her being a smoker, or find the door. Really its an either /or.
As others have stated, try and meet her friends. Perhaps you may be able to see them in a new light. No one is flawless, and everyone can be an asshole at times.
It has taken me a while to realize this, but you can't change others. People can only change if they want to/desire to. Either accept her as she is, including being a smoker and her social circle or move on. It doesn't make either party bad, it just means there is dissimilar life goals, expectations, and desires. Like I said, its hard but truth which I wish I learned years ago. It would have saved me tons of grief.
posted by handbanana at 2:43 PM on December 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
As others have stated, try and meet her friends. Perhaps you may be able to see them in a new light. No one is flawless, and everyone can be an asshole at times.
It has taken me a while to realize this, but you can't change others. People can only change if they want to/desire to. Either accept her as she is, including being a smoker and her social circle or move on. It doesn't make either party bad, it just means there is dissimilar life goals, expectations, and desires. Like I said, its hard but truth which I wish I learned years ago. It would have saved me tons of grief.
posted by handbanana at 2:43 PM on December 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
I would like you to know that it is perfectly reasonable and intelligent to take the position that smoking and drinking and lying are deal breakers and you don't have to like smoking and drinking and lying.
You don't have to do it and you don't have to police it in other people. You do have to be civil to people who chose to do those things (as long as they are not drunk and headed off to drive the car--then you probably need to do whatever you can to help them not do that). What you don't have to do is get serious with someone who smokes or drinks or lies. If you are opposed to those things, it's unlikely that you'll have a good relationship with someone who indulges and prefers similarly indulgent people.
There is nothing particularly virtuous about not smoking and not drinking but, likewise, there is absolutely nothing virtuous about smoking--I know because I did it for fifty-five years. There is nothing virtuous about drinking, either, and I also know that from personal experience. I don't think you need a lot of personal testimonials to convince you that lying is bad for a person and for a relationship. You don't have to apologize for not wanting these things in your life.
As you navigate all this, try not to come off holier-than-thou about it, but you're better off if you don't court trouble and I think you're wise to know at the beginning at least some of the things you don't want. There are going to be enough unforeseen difficulties in any relationship that you're smart not to hobble yourselves with known incompatibilities.
posted by Anitanola at 4:35 PM on December 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
You don't have to do it and you don't have to police it in other people. You do have to be civil to people who chose to do those things (as long as they are not drunk and headed off to drive the car--then you probably need to do whatever you can to help them not do that). What you don't have to do is get serious with someone who smokes or drinks or lies. If you are opposed to those things, it's unlikely that you'll have a good relationship with someone who indulges and prefers similarly indulgent people.
There is nothing particularly virtuous about not smoking and not drinking but, likewise, there is absolutely nothing virtuous about smoking--I know because I did it for fifty-five years. There is nothing virtuous about drinking, either, and I also know that from personal experience. I don't think you need a lot of personal testimonials to convince you that lying is bad for a person and for a relationship. You don't have to apologize for not wanting these things in your life.
As you navigate all this, try not to come off holier-than-thou about it, but you're better off if you don't court trouble and I think you're wise to know at the beginning at least some of the things you don't want. There are going to be enough unforeseen difficulties in any relationship that you're smart not to hobble yourselves with known incompatibilities.
posted by Anitanola at 4:35 PM on December 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
A more accurate assessment would be less that your SO's friends don't like you and more that you and your SO's friends don't like each other.
Smoking is just one particular battle in this war. That's where they've planted their flag and it's where you've planted yours so the battle is on.
Here's the thing. You have every right to ask for what you want in a relationship. But at the same time: Even if your summation is accurate, your SO's friends also seem to have an accurate idea of what's going on. You don't like them, and you feel like they're enabling your SO to engage in behavior you don't approve of. They don't like you, and they feel like you're coming from a controlling place, even if you're not saying that out loud. From what I can gather, you're both right.
It jumps out at me that you didn't know she smoked until you moved in together. Why is that? Why did she feel like she needed to hide it from you? And how did you find out?
But I'm gonna raise a point here. Your girlfriend lies about smoking. She hides it from you. Does she do so successfully, ever? And if so...if she's smoking when she's out with her friends and then comes home not smelling or tasting like smoke, why do you care?
Really think about that. Let that percolate in your brain a bit.
What you're doing is setting boundaries on principle, creating circumstances under which you are withholding your commitment to this relationship unless she does as you ask. She quits or you don't move forward.
What you should be doing is first thinking about what's important to you, then thinking about how that meshes with reality, and then communicating with her and try to find something in the middle. It's a completely sane and reasonable thing to say to your SO that you're grossed out by the smell and taste of cigarettes and to ask that she take whatever steps - whatever she's already doing, in fact - to try to make sure she doesn't smell like a smoker. What that then means is she gets to smoke a couple when she's out with friends and doesn't feel like she has to hide it from you. There's less pressure, no lies, things work out real nice. The actual amount of smoking she'd wind up doing is pretty negligible in terms of health. So try that.
If you can't stomach the idea of your girlfriend having a smoke or two when she's out with the girls, even if you can't tell that she did - if you can't compromise on this even in that small way - then you need to start asking yourself some questions.
I don't know. You moved in together after four months, you hate her friends, her friends hate you, and you've asked her to change before you'll decide to want to commit to her any further. Honestly, this maybe sounds like a job for couples therapy, if you're both serious about this.
Somebody once said that when a couple fights about the silverware, it's not actually about the silverware. This fight is not actually about smoking.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 4:59 PM on December 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
Smoking is just one particular battle in this war. That's where they've planted their flag and it's where you've planted yours so the battle is on.
Here's the thing. You have every right to ask for what you want in a relationship. But at the same time: Even if your summation is accurate, your SO's friends also seem to have an accurate idea of what's going on. You don't like them, and you feel like they're enabling your SO to engage in behavior you don't approve of. They don't like you, and they feel like you're coming from a controlling place, even if you're not saying that out loud. From what I can gather, you're both right.
It jumps out at me that you didn't know she smoked until you moved in together. Why is that? Why did she feel like she needed to hide it from you? And how did you find out?
But I'm gonna raise a point here. Your girlfriend lies about smoking. She hides it from you. Does she do so successfully, ever? And if so...if she's smoking when she's out with her friends and then comes home not smelling or tasting like smoke, why do you care?
Really think about that. Let that percolate in your brain a bit.
What you're doing is setting boundaries on principle, creating circumstances under which you are withholding your commitment to this relationship unless she does as you ask. She quits or you don't move forward.
What you should be doing is first thinking about what's important to you, then thinking about how that meshes with reality, and then communicating with her and try to find something in the middle. It's a completely sane and reasonable thing to say to your SO that you're grossed out by the smell and taste of cigarettes and to ask that she take whatever steps - whatever she's already doing, in fact - to try to make sure she doesn't smell like a smoker. What that then means is she gets to smoke a couple when she's out with friends and doesn't feel like she has to hide it from you. There's less pressure, no lies, things work out real nice. The actual amount of smoking she'd wind up doing is pretty negligible in terms of health. So try that.
If you can't stomach the idea of your girlfriend having a smoke or two when she's out with the girls, even if you can't tell that she did - if you can't compromise on this even in that small way - then you need to start asking yourself some questions.
I don't know. You moved in together after four months, you hate her friends, her friends hate you, and you've asked her to change before you'll decide to want to commit to her any further. Honestly, this maybe sounds like a job for couples therapy, if you're both serious about this.
Somebody once said that when a couple fights about the silverware, it's not actually about the silverware. This fight is not actually about smoking.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 4:59 PM on December 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
I agree with all the comments that say maybe they don't like you because you obviously don't think much of them. There is a whole lot of judgement here. It seems like you only measure them according to a set of data points: degree status, smoker/nonsmoker, how much they drink, relationship status, employment status. A lot of people in this country are unemployed lately through no fault of their own, you know. Not everyone had the easiest path to getting a degree; not everyone has an easy time in relationships. I'm sure you are not perfect? And there is more to each individual than these data points?
Or maybe there isn't? They do not sound like a group of people I'd feel comfortable around either. Smoking is really bad for you and it's not cool of them to try and drag her down into continuing a bad habit if she has said she wants to give it up. And drinking at chain restaurants and suburban nightclubs is not fun. I have gone to them on occasion when invited by coworkers and I feel awkward because I am not an outgoing type person and the food usually sucks and I just don't like these places, frankly.
I feel like if this question were written from another perspective, eg, "I am trying very hard to change my life for the better including quitting smoking and my friends are not supportive at all" the majority of responses would say that her friends are not very good friends.
You telling her that you won't take steps toward commitment if she doesn't quit smoking is controlling, though. They are right about that.
posted by citron at 5:29 PM on December 22, 2011
Or maybe there isn't? They do not sound like a group of people I'd feel comfortable around either. Smoking is really bad for you and it's not cool of them to try and drag her down into continuing a bad habit if she has said she wants to give it up. And drinking at chain restaurants and suburban nightclubs is not fun. I have gone to them on occasion when invited by coworkers and I feel awkward because I am not an outgoing type person and the food usually sucks and I just don't like these places, frankly.
I feel like if this question were written from another perspective, eg, "I am trying very hard to change my life for the better including quitting smoking and my friends are not supportive at all" the majority of responses would say that her friends are not very good friends.
You telling her that you won't take steps toward commitment if she doesn't quit smoking is controlling, though. They are right about that.
posted by citron at 5:29 PM on December 22, 2011
Smoking is a metaphor here, I think. One, current smokers tend to hate it when one of their smoking buddies quits because it delegitimizes their choice to smoke. Second, they don't like the decision because they know it is an end of an era. Your SO probably won't want to hang out as much, settling down, etc.
Also, don't make ultimatums.
posted by gjc at 5:39 PM on December 22, 2011
Also, don't make ultimatums.
posted by gjc at 5:39 PM on December 22, 2011
I thing you're getting too much blowback. Based on what you've said, I wouldn't think much of her friends, either. You don't like them and they don't like you; that makes sense. However, there's a big red flag that it looks like everyone is missing:
she also made a physical pass at me during one of our visits while my SO was sleeping—I shared this fact with my SO and she didn’t believe me
She didn't believe you? That's a problem. You're going to have to sit down and hash all this out, but the clear lack of trust between you is what you really need to fix.
posted by spaltavian at 5:48 PM on December 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
she also made a physical pass at me during one of our visits while my SO was sleeping—I shared this fact with my SO and she didn’t believe me
She didn't believe you? That's a problem. You're going to have to sit down and hash all this out, but the clear lack of trust between you is what you really need to fix.
posted by spaltavian at 5:48 PM on December 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
Hey OP I'm pretty much on your side. My first career was as a high school teacher but I quickly left for something easier that paid a lot more. Plus I was brought up to think that only stupid people smoked and you can tell from my username that was a LONG time ago.
It seems primarily like a class thing to me. It sounds like you and your SO come from very different backgrounds and part of your background is to believe that people aspire to have lives more like yours if possible. I'm talking about getting an education and spending at least part of the time doing things to make my future better.
Look at her parents and other family members and yours. Is it really plausible that two people from those two (slightly/greatly/whatever) different backgrounds could have a successful longterm relationship?
Smoking is bad for your health. If I were a male I wouldn't want the mother of my children to be a smoker. But actually the drinking bothers me even more.
I sense you like to think of yourself as an open-minded and tolerant person. But that does not require you to have a longterm relationship with someone whose values are very different from yours.
I think you are too accepting and you give this woman too much space. This early in a relationship you both should be wanting to spend all your free time together.
DTMFA!
posted by Sixtieslibber at 6:06 PM on December 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
It seems primarily like a class thing to me. It sounds like you and your SO come from very different backgrounds and part of your background is to believe that people aspire to have lives more like yours if possible. I'm talking about getting an education and spending at least part of the time doing things to make my future better.
Look at her parents and other family members and yours. Is it really plausible that two people from those two (slightly/greatly/whatever) different backgrounds could have a successful longterm relationship?
Smoking is bad for your health. If I were a male I wouldn't want the mother of my children to be a smoker. But actually the drinking bothers me even more.
I sense you like to think of yourself as an open-minded and tolerant person. But that does not require you to have a longterm relationship with someone whose values are very different from yours.
I think you are too accepting and you give this woman too much space. This early in a relationship you both should be wanting to spend all your free time together.
DTMFA!
posted by Sixtieslibber at 6:06 PM on December 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
Think about it this way: your GF has a LOT going for her ... 2L at a prestigious law school with a strong circle of good friends. Reading Metafilter, you know, shows that lots of people would kill to have several good friends. They probably have a really good time when they go to those gimmicky chain restaurant. I hate smoking, too, but seriously I think you should step back and think about how lucky you are to be with a bright young woman with a good social circle. The whole "you've got to stop smoking before we take the next step" seems way to finicky and weird to me. I suggest you loosen up and try to see the good in her and her friends ... or cut her loose.
posted by jayder at 6:21 PM on December 22, 2011
posted by jayder at 6:21 PM on December 22, 2011
Never allow someone to be your priority while allowing yourself to be their option?
Your headline seems to be about a whole different issue. Are you saying that you've made her a priority, and she has made you an option, along with friends/smoking/drinking in how she chooses to spend her time?
One thing I'd say, with respect, smoking and drinking aren't against the law or moral/spiritual failings. It might help your case to lighten up a bit (not light up, lighten up) and quit with the ultimatums and judging and unreasonable expectations.
Or you know, what others said, Find someone who fits your bill.
posted by thinkpiece at 6:26 PM on December 22, 2011
Your headline seems to be about a whole different issue. Are you saying that you've made her a priority, and she has made you an option, along with friends/smoking/drinking in how she chooses to spend her time?
One thing I'd say, with respect, smoking and drinking aren't against the law or moral/spiritual failings. It might help your case to lighten up a bit (not light up, lighten up) and quit with the ultimatums and judging and unreasonable expectations.
Or you know, what others said, Find someone who fits your bill.
posted by thinkpiece at 6:26 PM on December 22, 2011
I don't think you're being "too judgmental." There is a time to be at least a little judgmental, and that's when you're deciding whether or not to stay in a serious relationship. This girl makes choices that you disagree with and doesn't seem very committed to changing them. That's fine. It's good that she has friends she likes and trusts - but they are obviously not the social circle you want to be in. Her friends will continue to influence her behavior in a way that drives you nuts.
I would say to dump her. If that's too hard for you, maybe provisionally separate until she can make changes that are obviously really important to you, like quitting smoking... but I doubt that it will lead anywhere good in the long run. I don't think you two are compatible, and it probably won't be worth it to her to change who she is.
posted by permiechickie at 6:49 PM on December 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
I would say to dump her. If that's too hard for you, maybe provisionally separate until she can make changes that are obviously really important to you, like quitting smoking... but I doubt that it will lead anywhere good in the long run. I don't think you two are compatible, and it probably won't be worth it to her to change who she is.
posted by permiechickie at 6:49 PM on December 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
I'm going to tip my prejudice early, and tell you that I am a smoker. I get it. It's a disgusting habit, permeates your entire aura, it's one of the worst things you can do for your health, it comes with nasty ash, it's expensive, it makes you litter... the mild high or calm factor that you get from the cigarette itself is not worth all of the crap that comes with it. No wonder your hackles go up about it.
But.
While it isn't impossible to quit smoking, it is really, really, really FUCKING HARD. One of my aunts told me that quitting smoking was harder than childbirth. I had another aunt tell me that quitting smoking was harder than losing 200 lbs (and for the record, they had both done the thins of which they speak, so it's not like they're guessing). And even though most of the older generation of my family has been quit for 20 years or so, they still have moments where they crave a cigarette. It is a tough, tough drug to quit, and instead of judgment that she hasn't kicked it, please realize what a monumental thing it is for her to try, for your sake. Because I'm guessing, if it weren't for her staunchly non-smoking boyfriend, she wouldn't have decided to quit in the first place. That is a gift, and the gift she deserves in return is compassion for how SHITTY IT FEELS TO QUIT. (I've quit a bunch of times. They haven't stuck, and it doesn't help that I do feel so all around awful that I do want to die in the first month.)
Now... as for her friends. I would try to shift my mental paradigm a bit here, because this never ends well. She likely feels like she's caught between a rock and a hard place. You've correctly identified that she may dump you for her smoking habit, but it doesn't appear that you've considered the alternative, in which she dumps her friends for you. That might sound great, but you will have a lot more weight on your shoulders, as not only being her sole support system (for at least some time), but also because you are now The Guy That Made Her Dump All Her Friends. How would it feel if you felt compelled to choose between your friends and your girlfriend, and she won? Of course you'd still love her and wan to be with her, but you'd probably grieve for the lost friendships, and you might resent her for being the one keeping you from Tuesday Night Trivial Pursuit, or whatever it was that really meant a lot to you. Resentment will eat intimacy.
So, while you're practicing compassion for your girlfriend, perhaps you should make it your mission to find out one thing about each of her friends that you have painted none too well in this post, that makes you appreciate them as human beings. Just try it. And, to be honest, a lot of the stuff you identified as reasons why they were not exactly your cup of tea sound pretty superficial. So, instead of focusing on the fact that they all have a bad habit in common, or a lot of them are struggling to finish a Bachelors', focus on the fact that your girlfriend thinks these guys are awesome. Your girlfriend's awesome, right? And she thinks you're awesome? Okay, problem solved. All you have to do is find the nugget of awesome-osity that you haven't found.
posted by mornie_alantie at 7:01 PM on December 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
But.
While it isn't impossible to quit smoking, it is really, really, really FUCKING HARD. One of my aunts told me that quitting smoking was harder than childbirth. I had another aunt tell me that quitting smoking was harder than losing 200 lbs (and for the record, they had both done the thins of which they speak, so it's not like they're guessing). And even though most of the older generation of my family has been quit for 20 years or so, they still have moments where they crave a cigarette. It is a tough, tough drug to quit, and instead of judgment that she hasn't kicked it, please realize what a monumental thing it is for her to try, for your sake. Because I'm guessing, if it weren't for her staunchly non-smoking boyfriend, she wouldn't have decided to quit in the first place. That is a gift, and the gift she deserves in return is compassion for how SHITTY IT FEELS TO QUIT. (I've quit a bunch of times. They haven't stuck, and it doesn't help that I do feel so all around awful that I do want to die in the first month.)
Now... as for her friends. I would try to shift my mental paradigm a bit here, because this never ends well. She likely feels like she's caught between a rock and a hard place. You've correctly identified that she may dump you for her smoking habit, but it doesn't appear that you've considered the alternative, in which she dumps her friends for you. That might sound great, but you will have a lot more weight on your shoulders, as not only being her sole support system (for at least some time), but also because you are now The Guy That Made Her Dump All Her Friends. How would it feel if you felt compelled to choose between your friends and your girlfriend, and she won? Of course you'd still love her and wan to be with her, but you'd probably grieve for the lost friendships, and you might resent her for being the one keeping you from Tuesday Night Trivial Pursuit, or whatever it was that really meant a lot to you. Resentment will eat intimacy.
So, while you're practicing compassion for your girlfriend, perhaps you should make it your mission to find out one thing about each of her friends that you have painted none too well in this post, that makes you appreciate them as human beings. Just try it. And, to be honest, a lot of the stuff you identified as reasons why they were not exactly your cup of tea sound pretty superficial. So, instead of focusing on the fact that they all have a bad habit in common, or a lot of them are struggling to finish a Bachelors', focus on the fact that your girlfriend thinks these guys are awesome. Your girlfriend's awesome, right? And she thinks you're awesome? Okay, problem solved. All you have to do is find the nugget of awesome-osity that you haven't found.
posted by mornie_alantie at 7:01 PM on December 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
I think that you need to be really clear about what the real issue is. I am going to try to look past all of your frustration and give you the benefit of the doubt.
If I were in your shoes, my issue would be that you became invested in a person, moved in with her, and began to plan a future with her. THEN found out that she had hidden a deal breaker fro you. She pulled a red flag out of her hat instead of the bunny that you were expecting.
So, instead of just dumping her outright, you give her a chance to repair the bait-and-switch that you feel she pulled, and she proceeds to agree and then not take it "seriously". In other words, you see it as a Big Red Flag yet she seems to be treating it like a Little Pink Handkerchief. As do her friends, which basically makes you feel alone and alienated in your concerns.
I can see where both you and your girlfriend are coming from. It is unfortunate that you invested yourself in someone only to find a hidden deal breaker, but that is what happened, and you may need to just move on.
posted by Shouraku at 8:08 PM on December 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
If I were in your shoes, my issue would be that you became invested in a person, moved in with her, and began to plan a future with her. THEN found out that she had hidden a deal breaker fro you. She pulled a red flag out of her hat instead of the bunny that you were expecting.
So, instead of just dumping her outright, you give her a chance to repair the bait-and-switch that you feel she pulled, and she proceeds to agree and then not take it "seriously". In other words, you see it as a Big Red Flag yet she seems to be treating it like a Little Pink Handkerchief. As do her friends, which basically makes you feel alone and alienated in your concerns.
I can see where both you and your girlfriend are coming from. It is unfortunate that you invested yourself in someone only to find a hidden deal breaker, but that is what happened, and you may need to just move on.
posted by Shouraku at 8:08 PM on December 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
You know what? I think "you have to quit smoking before we take this any further" is a perfectly fine ultimatum. Yeah, in general relationship common sense is that you avoid ultimatums. But smoking is an inherently self-destructive act that also has consequences for others. Smokers live less healthy lives and die younger. It's a fact. I think it's absolutely reasonable to tell someone you won't continue the relationship if they keep smoking. Especially so if you're thinking about a long-term commitment, and double that if you're thinking about procreating.
I'm sorry, some ultimatums are worth it, and I hate the modern consensus on them that they are never okay in a relationship. If she leaves you over wanting to keep smoking, she wasn't worth staying with, full stop. FWIW, my mom laid down the law to my dad about smoking before they got married, and he quit smoking and never looked back. And before they had kids she made him sell his unsafe car. Sometimes these things are worth putting your foot down.
But you have to really be willing to walk away, like in any negotiation. And it sounds to me like you may just want to do that walking now if she's not willing to make this lifestyle change for you. Other people may call you controlling - but I think that's not really fair. Smoking affects you too, both in short-term secondhand-smoke type ways, and in long-term spouse has decreased life expectancy ways. You stand your ground, man.
posted by troublesome at 9:51 PM on December 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
I'm sorry, some ultimatums are worth it, and I hate the modern consensus on them that they are never okay in a relationship. If she leaves you over wanting to keep smoking, she wasn't worth staying with, full stop. FWIW, my mom laid down the law to my dad about smoking before they got married, and he quit smoking and never looked back. And before they had kids she made him sell his unsafe car. Sometimes these things are worth putting your foot down.
But you have to really be willing to walk away, like in any negotiation. And it sounds to me like you may just want to do that walking now if she's not willing to make this lifestyle change for you. Other people may call you controlling - but I think that's not really fair. Smoking affects you too, both in short-term secondhand-smoke type ways, and in long-term spouse has decreased life expectancy ways. You stand your ground, man.
posted by troublesome at 9:51 PM on December 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
Sounds like her friends come across to you not real bright--heavy smoking and drinking, what sounds like limited job/financial/career/relationship success, though who cares where they eat. I can live with a view that if they're not already there, they're well on their way to getting entrenched in a lifestyle of crappy jobs, money, health, finances, relationships. Helluva lot easier to get outta that at 29 than 39 and the years hustle on by................
In the Philippines, there is an expression, "crab mentality," from crabs in a pot trying to grab on a crab that's making its way out of the pot and pulling it back down. I think people are naive if they think there are no people who take that approach. Feels less than far-fetched that at least some of your SO's friends have some of that mentality so I wonder if that's some of your concern.
No question your SO is hearing and see different things when she interacts with her friends and her fellow students, and the contrast will increase when she graduates and gets a job. I'd wager that as she gets more in the world of her career, she'll have less interest in her friends, less ability to relate to them and move on.
Me? I'd keep my mouth shut about the smoking or read the best-reviewed books about how to help someone quit smoking, see how things go as her school progresses.
Far from implausible, though, that your lifestyles are and will be too different.
posted by ambient2 at 10:19 PM on December 22, 2011
In the Philippines, there is an expression, "crab mentality," from crabs in a pot trying to grab on a crab that's making its way out of the pot and pulling it back down. I think people are naive if they think there are no people who take that approach. Feels less than far-fetched that at least some of your SO's friends have some of that mentality so I wonder if that's some of your concern.
No question your SO is hearing and see different things when she interacts with her friends and her fellow students, and the contrast will increase when she graduates and gets a job. I'd wager that as she gets more in the world of her career, she'll have less interest in her friends, less ability to relate to them and move on.
Me? I'd keep my mouth shut about the smoking or read the best-reviewed books about how to help someone quit smoking, see how things go as her school progresses.
Far from implausible, though, that your lifestyles are and will be too different.
posted by ambient2 at 10:19 PM on December 22, 2011
I agree with this comment.
I do apologise if this is way off beam, but I was actually a bit caught by the phrase "living in sin" you used when describing where you were in the relationship. I can read Shakespeare into a till receipt, and I'm pretty sure you were joking, but do you in fact have any feeling that you have somehow compromised your own ethical "standards" in some way by maintaining this relationship with someone who does not perhaps meet your idea/l of a partner? By that I don't mean she is a bad person - as others have said, quite rightly, the acts of smoking, drinking etc by themselves are not immoral acts. Maybe you had certain thoughts and ideas prior to this relationship about who you might eventually live with, and maybe you were not expecting to find yourself with someone who smokes, drinks and hangs out with people that you have described in a rather unflattering way at best.
You mention the fact that her closest friend locally is her ex's cousin. The mention of the ex is interesting - why not just describe it as " ...her closest girlfriend in the area is also a smoker ..."? Are you concerned that she might be "led astray" ("not coming home at night") somehow by her friends, or do you feel nervous about this implied / indirect contact with her ex via this girlfriend? Maybe you assume because she was dishonest about the smoking, she will be dishonest about other aspects of your relationship? If that is the case, you perhaps need to start having some serious conversations with her about that. My thoughts are that Lying is a Very Bad Thing and should be avoided as far as humanly possible (unless lives and safety are at stake), but lying about one thing does not automatically mean you will lie about everything else. Otherwise no-one would be able to trust anyone on anything they said, as we will all have lied at one time or another. An exaggeration, but I'm sure you get the point. If you have doubts, you need to find a constructive and calm way of addressing them with her and then you will begin to develop a better sense of who she is and where you both stand - you've been together for 10 months and co-habiting for 6 and you are not going to learn everything you need to know about someone and how they work and how they communicate in that relatively short space of time.
"Her friends have begun feeding her the line that I am controlling and steering her towards a future without them" - how do you actually know this? Did she tell you or is this something you have surmised from your perception of their attitude towards you? If she did tell you, maybe she is somewhat awkwardly trying to start a conversation with you about how you appear to her to be trying to control and direct her interactions with her friends.
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 5:04 AM on December 23, 2011
I do apologise if this is way off beam, but I was actually a bit caught by the phrase "living in sin" you used when describing where you were in the relationship. I can read Shakespeare into a till receipt, and I'm pretty sure you were joking, but do you in fact have any feeling that you have somehow compromised your own ethical "standards" in some way by maintaining this relationship with someone who does not perhaps meet your idea/l of a partner? By that I don't mean she is a bad person - as others have said, quite rightly, the acts of smoking, drinking etc by themselves are not immoral acts. Maybe you had certain thoughts and ideas prior to this relationship about who you might eventually live with, and maybe you were not expecting to find yourself with someone who smokes, drinks and hangs out with people that you have described in a rather unflattering way at best.
You mention the fact that her closest friend locally is her ex's cousin. The mention of the ex is interesting - why not just describe it as " ...her closest girlfriend in the area is also a smoker ..."? Are you concerned that she might be "led astray" ("not coming home at night") somehow by her friends, or do you feel nervous about this implied / indirect contact with her ex via this girlfriend? Maybe you assume because she was dishonest about the smoking, she will be dishonest about other aspects of your relationship? If that is the case, you perhaps need to start having some serious conversations with her about that. My thoughts are that Lying is a Very Bad Thing and should be avoided as far as humanly possible (unless lives and safety are at stake), but lying about one thing does not automatically mean you will lie about everything else. Otherwise no-one would be able to trust anyone on anything they said, as we will all have lied at one time or another. An exaggeration, but I'm sure you get the point. If you have doubts, you need to find a constructive and calm way of addressing them with her and then you will begin to develop a better sense of who she is and where you both stand - you've been together for 10 months and co-habiting for 6 and you are not going to learn everything you need to know about someone and how they work and how they communicate in that relatively short space of time.
"Her friends have begun feeding her the line that I am controlling and steering her towards a future without them" - how do you actually know this? Did she tell you or is this something you have surmised from your perception of their attitude towards you? If she did tell you, maybe she is somewhat awkwardly trying to start a conversation with you about how you appear to her to be trying to control and direct her interactions with her friends.
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 5:04 AM on December 23, 2011
Were you aware that you don't like them either? If that's the case, it is a little odd that you both a) think they know you and can't tell something that obvious and b) think that we, who have never met you, could possibly know enough. Although in this case it seems that we do: it seems to be in what you say about other people and how you say it, although I don't think that's where you meant for us to look.
Of course it could also be that you eat all the fries off everybody's plates and never chip in for beer, for all we know.
posted by Adventurer at 5:58 AM on December 23, 2011
Of course it could also be that you eat all the fries off everybody's plates and never chip in for beer, for all we know.
posted by Adventurer at 5:58 AM on December 23, 2011
I used to be a smoker and am currently dating (and also living in sin with) a smoker. I hate smoking in the house, or smelling smoke on her. She knows that I'd rather she didnt, but that's about the end of that conversation.
Having been a smoker myself, I know that pressure from me won't do anything... in fact it will likely just drive her to sneak around and resent me a bit for it. I also have my own vices which I'm sure I could do less, so we all have our shit I figure.
A smoker needs to want to quit for themselves, not for anyone else. Also, I agree with what others are saying re: you sounding like you ARE being kinda controlling and judgy here.
posted by utsutsu at 7:17 AM on December 23, 2011
Having been a smoker myself, I know that pressure from me won't do anything... in fact it will likely just drive her to sneak around and resent me a bit for it. I also have my own vices which I'm sure I could do less, so we all have our shit I figure.
A smoker needs to want to quit for themselves, not for anyone else. Also, I agree with what others are saying re: you sounding like you ARE being kinda controlling and judgy here.
posted by utsutsu at 7:17 AM on December 23, 2011
Hey, so, this is kind of a long shot, but did you post a question an anon question a few months ago about your relationship? If so, and actually even if not, I'd say that you seem pretty invested in changing your girlfriend--her smoking, her friends, her various little preferences about how she lives her life. This isn't how a relationship should be. Perhaps you should look for a partner whom you admire and respect now, as she is--jobs, friends, habits, socializing. Someone who makes you think, "hey, if I were a part of this woman's life, my life would be that much more terrific."
posted by Ollie at 9:49 AM on December 23, 2011
posted by Ollie at 9:49 AM on December 23, 2011
You know what? I think "you have to quit smoking before we take this any further" is a perfectly fine ultimatum. Yeah, in general relationship common sense is that you avoid ultimatums. But smoking is an inherently self-destructive act that also has consequences for others. Smokers live less healthy lives and die younger. It's a fact. [...] But you have to really be willing to walk away, like in any negotiation. And it sounds to me like you may just want to do that walking now if she's not willing to make this lifestyle change for you. Other people may call you controlling - but I think that's not really fair.
Yes, but I think that what a lot of people are responding to is that the poster is NOT setting the smoking thing as a dealbreaker, but is instead continually going back to it as a point of contention and control.
If smoking is a dealbreaker, and the lying about smoking is a dealbreaker, then the poster need to break the deal and break up with her. But he's not: instead, he's trying to control her behavior, or create conflict with her friends, or punish her for her smoking sins, or change who she is, or something.
This kind of reminds me of the type couple who has, say, adultery as a dealbreaker: you cheat, and I'll leave you. Except when the cheating happens, they don't break up. Instead, the cheated-upon starts acting controlling, or throwing the adultery back in the cheater's face during every non-related argument, or making all sorts of demands to be compensated for his or her hurt.
There's a difference between working through a problem that impacts the relationship and using that problem as a fulcrum for doling out complaints or judgment, or for controlling the behavior of another.
If it's a dealbreaker, break the deal.
But she shouldn't be punished over and over again after he pretends to forgive/look away from/support the ceasing of said dealbreaking behavior.
posted by vivid postcard at 3:52 PM on December 23, 2011 [3 favorites]
Yes, but I think that what a lot of people are responding to is that the poster is NOT setting the smoking thing as a dealbreaker, but is instead continually going back to it as a point of contention and control.
If smoking is a dealbreaker, and the lying about smoking is a dealbreaker, then the poster need to break the deal and break up with her. But he's not: instead, he's trying to control her behavior, or create conflict with her friends, or punish her for her smoking sins, or change who she is, or something.
This kind of reminds me of the type couple who has, say, adultery as a dealbreaker: you cheat, and I'll leave you. Except when the cheating happens, they don't break up. Instead, the cheated-upon starts acting controlling, or throwing the adultery back in the cheater's face during every non-related argument, or making all sorts of demands to be compensated for his or her hurt.
There's a difference between working through a problem that impacts the relationship and using that problem as a fulcrum for doling out complaints or judgment, or for controlling the behavior of another.
If it's a dealbreaker, break the deal.
But she shouldn't be punished over and over again after he pretends to forgive/look away from/support the ceasing of said dealbreaking behavior.
posted by vivid postcard at 3:52 PM on December 23, 2011 [3 favorites]
What is kind of leaping out at me about your question is that you seem to have a very "me versus them" mentality regarding her friends, and you don't seem to care that you're putting your girlfriend in the middle. I don't think the "smoking as a dealbreaker" is a problem so much as that you are hyper-aware that there is a serious lifestyle difference at play here and I'm wondering how much of your day-to-day interactions with your girlfriend are pushing her closer to them and farther from you. And instead of seeing that, you choose to see her friends as the "bad influence," more so than the person making the choices you don't agree with - her. You need to figure out what to do about this dynamic, more than what to do about her friends and her smoking - you need to figure out what to do about YOU.
posted by sm1tten at 3:58 PM on December 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by sm1tten at 3:58 PM on December 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
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Based on the language you used to describe your SO's friends in this question, this is easy. It's because you don't like them, and they can sense that. Most of your description of them was extremely condescending, and I hope you can re-read and recognize that.
posted by HopperFan at 1:19 PM on December 22, 2011 [86 favorites]