Evil step mother or red-headed step child?
December 19, 2011 4:02 AM Subscribe
My girlfriend and my kid do not get along, and I don't know what to do. Plus my ex is undermining their relationship. Help!
Background: My girlfriend and I have been together about 4 years but only living together for the past 8 months. We each have children from previous relationships, she has a 10 year old son, I have an 8 year old son. Our kids met each other about a year into the relationship, and have basically been best buddies since then. My girlfriend and I each have 50% custody of our children, and the days/nights we have our children are the same.
Since we have been living together, my gf has has been complaining that my child is disrespectful towards her, doesn't listen to her, talks back to her, and that he hates her. This is all in contrast to her child who she thinks behaves like a perfect angel.
I have witnessed my child talk back to her, and not listen to her, have to be told more then once to do chores, etc. But no more then he does so to myself or to other adults. Also it seems to be about the same level her own child does the same things to her. To me, it seems like about the normal amount of non-compliance you would get from the typical 8 year old. I've always thought my child is pretty well behaved, and he has never had any behavior problems.
I get along with her kid fine and we don't have any problems with each other. Both kids pretty much do what I tell them to do, all though it's not uncommon to have to say things more then once or raise my voice to get them to do their chores or whatever. Nothing that I view as out of the ordinary for 8-10 year old kids. I guess that's the first part of my question, that is normal behavior for kids that age, right?
I have had a few "talks" with my son about how he needs to listen to and obey my girlfriend when she tells him to do things. He says he will. I've had to have him apologize to her a couple times for misbehaving, although I can't recall the specific details of those incidents. I have given my girlfriend the authority to discipline him as she see's fit, but she has only done so one time (and the results of that didn't turn out how she wanted).
The one time my GF did try to discipline him it was for not doing something she wanted him to do after being told to do it 3 times. Neither can even remember what it was exactly it was now. She disciplined him by taking away his most cherished possession, a stuffed toy that he had since he was an infant that he takes to bed every night. My kid understandably freaked out over this and went to bed crying. While I did give my GF the authority to discipline him and said I would support her in it, I thought it was a little extreme for what he did, especially since he had no warning that it could be a consequence and the punishment wasn't administered until four hours after the offense took place.
My girlfriend has recently been escalating the negative things she says about my child to me. Things like he's "devil spawn" or "evil." Telling me how mean he is, calling him a "little shit." I've tried to talk to her about this because, obviously, it is troubling me greatly to hear her say this stuff and my natural inclination is to defend my child.
She alleges that he acts completely different around me then when she is the only adult. I've tried to get her to give me some concrete examples of what exactly my son is doing to "disrespect" her (other then the examples I gave above). She can never give me any. She says she can just tell he doesn't like her by they way he looks at her. That he gives her the "evil eye." I don't even know what the hell that means, and when she says stuff like that it makes me really wonder what else is going on in her brain to make her think that. She also believes that my ex-wife (who has since remarried) has been telling him to misbehave with her, and saying bad things about her to my son. I always dismissed this as parinoia on my GF's part, because there was no evidence of that and didn't think my ex would sink so low.
Last week, my GF was trying to get both of the kids to do their homework while I was away doing something else. My son must have said something mean to my GF, or talked back to her (I don't really know exactly what happened) but my GF asked him why he thought he didn't have to listen to her and do what she says. He replied by saying his mother told him he didn't have to do what she said and not to listen to her. My GF didn't even mention those whole episode to me until much latter in the night and didn't even want me to discuss it with my child, but I insisted on it.
My son admitted to me that his mom did indeed say that to him. We talked about how that wasn't OK, how he does have to do what my GF says, etc. But now this has ratcheted up my GF's negative feelings about my child, and increased her (now somewhat justified) paranoia about how my kid is out to get her. So I also don't know how or if I should bring this up with my ex?
The irony to me is that my ex apparently told this to my son after my son told my ex about the incident with the taking away of the stuffed animal. So it is sort of like my girlfriends paranoia became a self fulfilling prophecy.
So any advice is welcome as to how I deal with this situation from here on out. How do I get my kid to do what my GF says? How do I convince my GF that my son isn't out to get her?
Background: My girlfriend and I have been together about 4 years but only living together for the past 8 months. We each have children from previous relationships, she has a 10 year old son, I have an 8 year old son. Our kids met each other about a year into the relationship, and have basically been best buddies since then. My girlfriend and I each have 50% custody of our children, and the days/nights we have our children are the same.
Since we have been living together, my gf has has been complaining that my child is disrespectful towards her, doesn't listen to her, talks back to her, and that he hates her. This is all in contrast to her child who she thinks behaves like a perfect angel.
I have witnessed my child talk back to her, and not listen to her, have to be told more then once to do chores, etc. But no more then he does so to myself or to other adults. Also it seems to be about the same level her own child does the same things to her. To me, it seems like about the normal amount of non-compliance you would get from the typical 8 year old. I've always thought my child is pretty well behaved, and he has never had any behavior problems.
I get along with her kid fine and we don't have any problems with each other. Both kids pretty much do what I tell them to do, all though it's not uncommon to have to say things more then once or raise my voice to get them to do their chores or whatever. Nothing that I view as out of the ordinary for 8-10 year old kids. I guess that's the first part of my question, that is normal behavior for kids that age, right?
I have had a few "talks" with my son about how he needs to listen to and obey my girlfriend when she tells him to do things. He says he will. I've had to have him apologize to her a couple times for misbehaving, although I can't recall the specific details of those incidents. I have given my girlfriend the authority to discipline him as she see's fit, but she has only done so one time (and the results of that didn't turn out how she wanted).
The one time my GF did try to discipline him it was for not doing something she wanted him to do after being told to do it 3 times. Neither can even remember what it was exactly it was now. She disciplined him by taking away his most cherished possession, a stuffed toy that he had since he was an infant that he takes to bed every night. My kid understandably freaked out over this and went to bed crying. While I did give my GF the authority to discipline him and said I would support her in it, I thought it was a little extreme for what he did, especially since he had no warning that it could be a consequence and the punishment wasn't administered until four hours after the offense took place.
My girlfriend has recently been escalating the negative things she says about my child to me. Things like he's "devil spawn" or "evil." Telling me how mean he is, calling him a "little shit." I've tried to talk to her about this because, obviously, it is troubling me greatly to hear her say this stuff and my natural inclination is to defend my child.
She alleges that he acts completely different around me then when she is the only adult. I've tried to get her to give me some concrete examples of what exactly my son is doing to "disrespect" her (other then the examples I gave above). She can never give me any. She says she can just tell he doesn't like her by they way he looks at her. That he gives her the "evil eye." I don't even know what the hell that means, and when she says stuff like that it makes me really wonder what else is going on in her brain to make her think that. She also believes that my ex-wife (who has since remarried) has been telling him to misbehave with her, and saying bad things about her to my son. I always dismissed this as parinoia on my GF's part, because there was no evidence of that and didn't think my ex would sink so low.
Last week, my GF was trying to get both of the kids to do their homework while I was away doing something else. My son must have said something mean to my GF, or talked back to her (I don't really know exactly what happened) but my GF asked him why he thought he didn't have to listen to her and do what she says. He replied by saying his mother told him he didn't have to do what she said and not to listen to her. My GF didn't even mention those whole episode to me until much latter in the night and didn't even want me to discuss it with my child, but I insisted on it.
My son admitted to me that his mom did indeed say that to him. We talked about how that wasn't OK, how he does have to do what my GF says, etc. But now this has ratcheted up my GF's negative feelings about my child, and increased her (now somewhat justified) paranoia about how my kid is out to get her. So I also don't know how or if I should bring this up with my ex?
The irony to me is that my ex apparently told this to my son after my son told my ex about the incident with the taking away of the stuffed animal. So it is sort of like my girlfriends paranoia became a self fulfilling prophecy.
So any advice is welcome as to how I deal with this situation from here on out. How do I get my kid to do what my GF says? How do I convince my GF that my son isn't out to get her?
Question is, are you ok with this? She seems really petty and selfish.
posted by oceanjesse at 4:09 AM on December 19, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by oceanjesse at 4:09 AM on December 19, 2011 [9 favorites]
Things like he's "devil spawn" or "evil." Telling me how mean he is, calling him a "little shit."
He's eight. He's a kid. She's an adult. Even if he's not behaving as well as he should be, she is supposed to be capable of responding appropriately, and that is not appropriate.
If she's willing to say things like that to you, I would be wondering what she's saying to him when you're not around.
posted by lwb at 4:22 AM on December 19, 2011 [123 favorites]
He's eight. He's a kid. She's an adult. Even if he's not behaving as well as he should be, she is supposed to be capable of responding appropriately, and that is not appropriate.
If she's willing to say things like that to you, I would be wondering what she's saying to him when you're not around.
posted by lwb at 4:22 AM on December 19, 2011 [123 favorites]
I think you should do some research into family therapy.
I can't say I blame your child for acting out. Rightly or wrongly he may feel like he's being loyal to his mom whenever he's disrespectful or disobedient to your girlfriend. And anyway, it doesn't matter how old you are, you can tell when someone doesn't like you, and he probably has very low incentive to be nice to her.
Your girlfriend is an adult and should act like it.
Things like he's "devil spawn" or "evil." Telling me how mean he is, calling him a "little shit." ... I've tried to get her to give me some concrete examples of what exactly my son is doing to "disrespect" her... She can never give me any. She says she can just tell he doesn't like her by they way he looks at her. That he gives her the "evil eye."
That's pretty strong stuff and when directed at an eight-year-old child who is adjusting to a new family dynamic and one in which his dad's girlfriend can't stand him, it is not appropriate behaviour.
posted by Ziggy500 at 4:24 AM on December 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
I can't say I blame your child for acting out. Rightly or wrongly he may feel like he's being loyal to his mom whenever he's disrespectful or disobedient to your girlfriend. And anyway, it doesn't matter how old you are, you can tell when someone doesn't like you, and he probably has very low incentive to be nice to her.
Your girlfriend is an adult and should act like it.
Things like he's "devil spawn" or "evil." Telling me how mean he is, calling him a "little shit." ... I've tried to get her to give me some concrete examples of what exactly my son is doing to "disrespect" her... She can never give me any. She says she can just tell he doesn't like her by they way he looks at her. That he gives her the "evil eye."
That's pretty strong stuff and when directed at an eight-year-old child who is adjusting to a new family dynamic and one in which his dad's girlfriend can't stand him, it is not appropriate behaviour.
posted by Ziggy500 at 4:24 AM on December 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
Your kid may certainly be acting out in all the ways your girlfriend claims, and he may well have gone to his own mother and complained and gotten the advice, You don't have to listen to her. And then that's what he told her, which is a little bit out of bounds. All that is in the realm of normal.
What is not in the realm of normal or right or mature or parent-y is the way your girlfriend is acting. Evil? Devil's spawn? Attacking an 8 year old's character? She is the one doing the undermining, not your ex. Your ex is protecting your son, and you should be too. "Dismissing paranoia" is not in the interest of your kid.
posted by thinkpiece at 4:26 AM on December 19, 2011 [9 favorites]
What is not in the realm of normal or right or mature or parent-y is the way your girlfriend is acting. Evil? Devil's spawn? Attacking an 8 year old's character? She is the one doing the undermining, not your ex. Your ex is protecting your son, and you should be too. "Dismissing paranoia" is not in the interest of your kid.
posted by thinkpiece at 4:26 AM on December 19, 2011 [9 favorites]
My children's father had a girlfriend for a few years who treated my son the way your girlfriend appears to be treating your son. He is 17 now and still suffers terribly as a result. She is treating him horribly, you are not protecting him from her, and his mother keeps sending him to your house. All three of the adults in his life are failing him. If he is acting out as a result, then good for him! Pay attention to what he is telling you.
The common denominator in all of these interpersonal relationships is you. You need to stand up for your son, work constructively with your ex, and develop appropriate consequences for misbehaving. You need to be the leader though. He is your child and your girlfriend is doing it wrong.
And if it comes down to it, you need to choose your son's best interests over anything or anyone else.
posted by headnsouth at 4:27 AM on December 19, 2011 [69 favorites]
The common denominator in all of these interpersonal relationships is you. You need to stand up for your son, work constructively with your ex, and develop appropriate consequences for misbehaving. You need to be the leader though. He is your child and your girlfriend is doing it wrong.
And if it comes down to it, you need to choose your son's best interests over anything or anyone else.
posted by headnsouth at 4:27 AM on December 19, 2011 [69 favorites]
The problem seems to have originated with your GF and your ex's reponse to her son seems one of trying to help the child establish some healthy boundaries in the face of overwhelming hostile treatment by your GF. I suggest therapy for the GF, she is the adult and she needs to get some therapy and change her behavior. Your son is a child and he needs protection from her behavior which sounds unreasonable and rather awful for him
posted by zia at 4:28 AM on December 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by zia at 4:28 AM on December 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
I think you need to forget all about your ex - this is an issue between your girlfriend and your son. She needs to earn his trust and respect, and that's not going to happen as long as she does things like take away his stuffed animal. Even in the best situations it is a lot to expect that he going to listen to her. The only way to salvage the situation is for her to keep things low key, and not make any demands on him whatsoever. It's probably not fair to ask her to look after him when you're not around.
posted by KokuRyu at 4:28 AM on December 19, 2011
posted by KokuRyu at 4:28 AM on December 19, 2011
Most of this question is your girlfriend complaining about your child, and then your talking to your child about how to behave around your girlfriend. What about the other way around? What does your son think about the girlfriend? Have you had a talk with him that isn't just one-sided "now you respect your stepmother, son"?
She doesn't sound like a good person to have in a kid's life, no matter how bratty the kid.
And for what it's worth, I don't think your ex is trying to undermine your new relationship. It sounds like she's actually listening to your son and trying to advise as best she can. It could be your son heard decent advice and misinterpreted it as "don't listen to her" - he's a kid, after all.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:31 AM on December 19, 2011 [13 favorites]
She doesn't sound like a good person to have in a kid's life, no matter how bratty the kid.
And for what it's worth, I don't think your ex is trying to undermine your new relationship. It sounds like she's actually listening to your son and trying to advise as best she can. It could be your son heard decent advice and misinterpreted it as "don't listen to her" - he's a kid, after all.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:31 AM on December 19, 2011 [13 favorites]
Did they get along OK before you moved in? Presumably if they've known each other for the four years you two have been together, you would have picked up on any overt / sustained negativity on her part - or was it always there but muted? I think it sounds like some emergent jealousy on her part, either of your son or of your ex. Children don't get to choose to join in the games that adults play with each other - they can't sit it out. Your partner sounds like she's taking things out on your boy, especially if he isn't behaving any worse than her own child, and that is wrong and will have negative consequences. He sounds like an eight-year old stuck in the middle of some jostling-adult stuff. And I'm afraid the way you describe your partner makes her sound rather immature and unpleasant.
There is also the issue of what your ex is doing as well - that won't be helping your son to settle into what is still a new living situation for all of you, and you should reiterate to her that using her son as a tool in some nasty little game is out of order. As others have said, however difficult they may appear be, children don't have much of a voice in these situations and can only use their behaviours sometimes to show how distressed they areand you need to advocate for them. He's eight, for goodness' sake and he's not evil - he's a little boy in a confusing and hurtful situation.
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 4:31 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
There is also the issue of what your ex is doing as well - that won't be helping your son to settle into what is still a new living situation for all of you, and you should reiterate to her that using her son as a tool in some nasty little game is out of order. As others have said, however difficult they may appear be, children don't have much of a voice in these situations and can only use their behaviours sometimes to show how distressed they areand you need to advocate for them. He's eight, for goodness' sake and he's not evil - he's a little boy in a confusing and hurtful situation.
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 4:31 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
First and foremost, I would NEVER in a thousand years put up with someone calling my child (or anyone else I loved) "a little shit". I don't care what she feels he is doing to her or what he actually does, nothing would justify someone describing my child in those terms. That is extremely disrespectful, immature, and would hurt me on a core level. Plus, she is the GROWN UP yet it sounds like she is being the immature hurtful one.
This just makes me so angry for your son and for you. My partner has a son that he shares 50/50 custody with his ex-wife. We've been together for a shorter time than you guys have, and we have lived together for a shorter period that you and your partner have, and therefore his son hasn't been a part of my life for anywhere near as long as your son has been in hers. My partner's son isn't perfect all the time. He sometimes doesn't listen or acts up. He's a normal child. But you know what? If I heard ANYONE refer to him in the way that your girlfriend does I would be beside myself and just furious and extremely hurt and I would do what I could to remove that person from his life until they proved that they could treat my step-son with respect.
His attitude likely won't change until hers gets a MAJOR overhaul. She clearly doesn't like your child, doesn't enjoy having him around, and is quick to take any tiny example of misbehaving as a sign of his horribleness. Does she think that if she puts up enough of a fuss that you'll give up custody of your son to keep her happy? If so then you need to do a lot of thinking about where your loyalty lies and what you are okay having happen.
Children and their step parents don't always have to be BFF but they do need to learn how to co-exist respectfully. Whether or not she says it to your son's face that poisionous and negative attitude is undoubtedly being projected to the child. No child deserves to be treated that way or be made to feel that way. YOU are your child's first line of defense against harm and her anger and immaturity towards your child has harmed him and will continue to do so.
regarding his bio-mom, I don't agree with her telling your son that she doesn't have to listen to your girlfriend, but sweet mercy I can see why she would feel inclined to tell him that...
posted by gwenlister at 4:31 AM on December 19, 2011 [38 favorites]
This just makes me so angry for your son and for you. My partner has a son that he shares 50/50 custody with his ex-wife. We've been together for a shorter time than you guys have, and we have lived together for a shorter period that you and your partner have, and therefore his son hasn't been a part of my life for anywhere near as long as your son has been in hers. My partner's son isn't perfect all the time. He sometimes doesn't listen or acts up. He's a normal child. But you know what? If I heard ANYONE refer to him in the way that your girlfriend does I would be beside myself and just furious and extremely hurt and I would do what I could to remove that person from his life until they proved that they could treat my step-son with respect.
His attitude likely won't change until hers gets a MAJOR overhaul. She clearly doesn't like your child, doesn't enjoy having him around, and is quick to take any tiny example of misbehaving as a sign of his horribleness. Does she think that if she puts up enough of a fuss that you'll give up custody of your son to keep her happy? If so then you need to do a lot of thinking about where your loyalty lies and what you are okay having happen.
Children and their step parents don't always have to be BFF but they do need to learn how to co-exist respectfully. Whether or not she says it to your son's face that poisionous and negative attitude is undoubtedly being projected to the child. No child deserves to be treated that way or be made to feel that way. YOU are your child's first line of defense against harm and her anger and immaturity towards your child has harmed him and will continue to do so.
regarding his bio-mom, I don't agree with her telling your son that she doesn't have to listen to your girlfriend, but sweet mercy I can see why she would feel inclined to tell him that...
posted by gwenlister at 4:31 AM on December 19, 2011 [38 favorites]
"If she's willing to say things like that to you, I would be wondering what she's saying to him when you're not around."
This bares repeating.
posted by gwenlister at 4:33 AM on December 19, 2011 [29 favorites]
This bares repeating.
posted by gwenlister at 4:33 AM on December 19, 2011 [29 favorites]
Although your kid appears to be like a huge (mother induced) pain in the ass, your girlfriend is the supposed adult and should start acting like it.
It's your child and your partner. The fact that you 'can't remember' things or don't know the exact circumstances . . . well, that's like you aren't very present and don't care enough to bother until it's gotten to the point where YOU can't ignore it anymore.
Your behavior may be the problem here -- their behavior may only be a symptom.
posted by jaimystery at 4:33 AM on December 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
It's your child and your partner. The fact that you 'can't remember' things or don't know the exact circumstances . . . well, that's like you aren't very present and don't care enough to bother until it's gotten to the point where YOU can't ignore it anymore.
Your behavior may be the problem here -- their behavior may only be a symptom.
posted by jaimystery at 4:33 AM on December 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
My first response above was not very constructive, so I apologize. I just really feel for your kid. Step One: You get back in the driver's seat. Your girlfriend has to put a temporary moratorium on disciplining your kid. She has to come to you with the issue, and then you two work out a united front on what needs to happen. You deal with your boy together, with you taking the lead.
posted by thinkpiece at 4:40 AM on December 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by thinkpiece at 4:40 AM on December 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
I didn't have a step-parent, but I know lots of people who did, including my mom and my partner. This kind of behavior on the part of your girlfriend will have lasting, deleterious effects on your son. He'll remember through adulthood all of the bad feelings, the sense of rejection, the bewildering over-the-top punishments, the contrast between the way he was treated vs. his stepbrother (the "natural" child), and most of all how she was sanctioned by you to do these things to him.
Please don't let this go any further. Family therapy did some great things for us in the aftermath of my own parents' divorce. It might help you guys to bond and build trust, and make you accountable for one anothers feelings.
FWIW, I don't think your girlfriend is a bad person, but she's not handling the new family dynamic and the extra responsibility of another child in her house very well, and she needs help now.
posted by swingbraid at 4:42 AM on December 19, 2011 [16 favorites]
Please don't let this go any further. Family therapy did some great things for us in the aftermath of my own parents' divorce. It might help you guys to bond and build trust, and make you accountable for one anothers feelings.
FWIW, I don't think your girlfriend is a bad person, but she's not handling the new family dynamic and the extra responsibility of another child in her house very well, and she needs help now.
posted by swingbraid at 4:42 AM on December 19, 2011 [16 favorites]
This is not good situation. It sounds like you have been, perhaps unconsciously, accommodating to everyone. You need to take some control here, and as others have said, stand up for your son, and also figure out what makes you feel good about the family dynamics, so that you can do this. People are suggesting family therapy but maybe some personal sessions to try and discover why you have let things build up this way might be useful too.
You need to have confidence in your actions for what you want for you and your son, and it sounds like some manipulative adults are pushing you around at the moment - or rather, you are letting them push you around.
posted by carter at 4:44 AM on December 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
You need to have confidence in your actions for what you want for you and your son, and it sounds like some manipulative adults are pushing you around at the moment - or rather, you are letting them push you around.
posted by carter at 4:44 AM on December 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
This is essentially a love triangle. She's jealous and creating situations where you are forced to choose one of them over the other - to prove your love for her - where she wins and he loses. Grownups aren't supposed to do that.
posted by Sweetie Darling at 4:44 AM on December 19, 2011 [20 favorites]
posted by Sweetie Darling at 4:44 AM on December 19, 2011 [20 favorites]
" ... increased her (now somewhat justified) paranoia about how my kid is out to get her."
Just caught onto this - her "paranoia" is not "justified", mainly because a little eight-year old boy is not actually "out to get her" - that's just a bit too over the top to stand close inspection. She is over-reacting and it is starting to sound as if you might be as well.
"How do I convince my GF that my son isn't out to get her?"
Remind her that he's eight years old and she's a grown-up and this isn't a silly horror film she's watching, this is life and she gets to model the sort of behaviour she wants to see in all the children she is (in part) responsible for - calmness, tolerance, understanding and fairness, even if she can't manage anything more in-depth.
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 4:53 AM on December 19, 2011 [18 favorites]
Just caught onto this - her "paranoia" is not "justified", mainly because a little eight-year old boy is not actually "out to get her" - that's just a bit too over the top to stand close inspection. She is over-reacting and it is starting to sound as if you might be as well.
"How do I convince my GF that my son isn't out to get her?"
Remind her that he's eight years old and she's a grown-up and this isn't a silly horror film she's watching, this is life and she gets to model the sort of behaviour she wants to see in all the children she is (in part) responsible for - calmness, tolerance, understanding and fairness, even if she can't manage anything more in-depth.
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 4:53 AM on December 19, 2011 [18 favorites]
Your girlfriend seems to have a lot of self-esteem issues, which are showing themselves as paranoia regarding your son and your ex-wife. The fact that she thinks your son doesn't like her and disrespects her without any concrete examples, plus the idea that she thinks your ex-wife is coaching him to dislike her, speaks more to her own self-image than to anything your child or ex are doing.
I would immediately pull back on any disciplinary permission you've given her, and try to minimize the amount of time she's left alone with your son. Then find a good family therapist to work out these issues.
posted by xingcat at 5:00 AM on December 19, 2011 [9 favorites]
I would immediately pull back on any disciplinary permission you've given her, and try to minimize the amount of time she's left alone with your son. Then find a good family therapist to work out these issues.
posted by xingcat at 5:00 AM on December 19, 2011 [9 favorites]
Taking away the stuffed animal verges on emotional abuse. Are you ok with your kid being emotionally abused?
If you don't address your girlfriend's immature, cruel behavior, she will not only hurt your son, but she will also drive a wedge between you and him as he grows up. That is where this is headed.
You need to give your Gf an ultimatum and therapy, stat.
posted by yarly at 5:08 AM on December 19, 2011 [12 favorites]
If you don't address your girlfriend's immature, cruel behavior, she will not only hurt your son, but she will also drive a wedge between you and him as he grows up. That is where this is headed.
You need to give your Gf an ultimatum and therapy, stat.
posted by yarly at 5:08 AM on December 19, 2011 [12 favorites]
My girlfriend and I each have 50% custody of our children, and the days/nights we have our children are the same.
Does he ever get some one-on-one time with you? Is it possible to tweak the visitation for a while so that you can be physically and emotionally present with him all the time, rather than have him over when she has to watch over both kids?
I'm surprised your ex hasn't done more than just tell him to not listen to her. Which could be a way your ex is trying to help your son defend himself against what your GF says. Because if she's calling him devil spawn to your face, I'm sure she's saying things to him when you're not there. I think it's time to bring her into this conversation too, and see what your son is telling her.
posted by ladygypsy at 5:11 AM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
Does he ever get some one-on-one time with you? Is it possible to tweak the visitation for a while so that you can be physically and emotionally present with him all the time, rather than have him over when she has to watch over both kids?
I'm surprised your ex hasn't done more than just tell him to not listen to her. Which could be a way your ex is trying to help your son defend himself against what your GF says. Because if she's calling him devil spawn to your face, I'm sure she's saying things to him when you're not there. I think it's time to bring her into this conversation too, and see what your son is telling her.
posted by ladygypsy at 5:11 AM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
Two things jumped out at me from your description: how your GF chose to discipline your son, and how she's started talking about him to you.
The former seems incredibly vindictive and designed to create the maximum psychic pain. Your GF is already a mother, so she isn't just learning this stuff for the first time, and she undoubtedly knows that your son's stuffed animal is not just another possession, like a Gameboy or a Tonka truck. It's akin to a security blanket, it's a deeply personal and intimate prop with which your son negotiates the vicissitudes of daily life. It's precisely the thing that would allow him to understand and absorb some other punishment. I would expect any parent to understand the difference between that kind of object and some other toy, and to not pull it into petty punishments.
Her language to you is both an inappropriate way to talk about a kid that age, and an incredibly provocative way to talk to that kid's dad. How would you react if your best friend called your GF a little shit? I wouldn't stand for it in either case, and I think that by allowing it at all you're communicating to your GF a serious lack of loyalty to your son. This feeds into, rather than quashing, the kind of behavior she's displaying.
I'm not sure what your ex told your son, but it seems like you only have his story about it. I imagine he was pretty upset after the stuffed animal incident, and I'm not sure I'd trust his version of events.
Finally, I'll share that I grew up with a stepmother. She and I mostly got along alright, but my sister and she did not get along well at all. Family vacations usually had at least one day devoted to my father refereeing a tearful discussion/argument between them. It was a pretty big drag growing up. (And, for what it's worth, I think my sister was frequently acted like a little shit to my stepmother. I'm her brother, I'm required to say that.) But, worse, now that we're adults, the animus on my sister's part lingers, and it deeply affects family holidays and get-togethers. Indeed, my sister tends to hold her family aloof from my parent's to a certain extent, which separates us as well, since I live near them. All of those things that we all have limited patience for from our parents, the quirks and the foibles, the pain-in-the-assness of people you know too well, my sister has absolutely no truck with from my stepmother, so even when she is around for holidays she spends time running my stepmother (who I love very much) down. It's a drag all around.
posted by OmieWise at 5:14 AM on December 19, 2011 [22 favorites]
The former seems incredibly vindictive and designed to create the maximum psychic pain. Your GF is already a mother, so she isn't just learning this stuff for the first time, and she undoubtedly knows that your son's stuffed animal is not just another possession, like a Gameboy or a Tonka truck. It's akin to a security blanket, it's a deeply personal and intimate prop with which your son negotiates the vicissitudes of daily life. It's precisely the thing that would allow him to understand and absorb some other punishment. I would expect any parent to understand the difference between that kind of object and some other toy, and to not pull it into petty punishments.
Her language to you is both an inappropriate way to talk about a kid that age, and an incredibly provocative way to talk to that kid's dad. How would you react if your best friend called your GF a little shit? I wouldn't stand for it in either case, and I think that by allowing it at all you're communicating to your GF a serious lack of loyalty to your son. This feeds into, rather than quashing, the kind of behavior she's displaying.
I'm not sure what your ex told your son, but it seems like you only have his story about it. I imagine he was pretty upset after the stuffed animal incident, and I'm not sure I'd trust his version of events.
Finally, I'll share that I grew up with a stepmother. She and I mostly got along alright, but my sister and she did not get along well at all. Family vacations usually had at least one day devoted to my father refereeing a tearful discussion/argument between them. It was a pretty big drag growing up. (And, for what it's worth, I think my sister was frequently acted like a little shit to my stepmother. I'm her brother, I'm required to say that.) But, worse, now that we're adults, the animus on my sister's part lingers, and it deeply affects family holidays and get-togethers. Indeed, my sister tends to hold her family aloof from my parent's to a certain extent, which separates us as well, since I live near them. All of those things that we all have limited patience for from our parents, the quirks and the foibles, the pain-in-the-assness of people you know too well, my sister has absolutely no truck with from my stepmother, so even when she is around for holidays she spends time running my stepmother (who I love very much) down. It's a drag all around.
posted by OmieWise at 5:14 AM on December 19, 2011 [22 favorites]
"devil spawn", "evil", "little shit."
You cannot possibly be okay with that. How in the world is your son to learn to be respectful to a person who can't handle that bit herself. How in the world is your ex supposed to not care about what is going on over at your address, if it consists of stuff like this. Think very thoroughly here.
More in general, it is always a good idea to let one's new partners do as absolutely little as possible in terms of the education of one's kids, of giving directives, the lot. You can't run away from the fact that you're historically seen the boss for your kids. Enforcing, or allowing, your girlfriend to play the boss in your stead will never go well beyond a certain point.
So, to solve this, re-dial and try to find a model where running a household becomes a thing one does together.
Concretely, your son not only must get told, but must be shown actual positive proof (by the grownups' example) that the effort everyone makes in fact does lead to a better atmosphere, lifestyle, more harmonious family, you name it - the things one loves about being together in a home of sorts.
The words I quoted above do not represent that type of proof. It is your call do do something about that. As it seems now, your son is only adjusting to the rough winds - by blowing back.
(A general note about "talking back." Grownups argue; kids imitate; intelligent kids have a lot of own steam - meaning that they argue well. That hurts occasionally, but to subdue this behavior is a shitty idea nevertheless. The only thing really needed is that the grownups themselves learn to argue in a neat fashion, so that the kids learn what's okay and what's not. The grownups need to give guidance and provide rules that they themselves don't break (because grownups are not holy and kids are not little shits). Short version: talking back is learned behavior. Look into the mirror.)
posted by Namlit at 5:17 AM on December 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
You cannot possibly be okay with that. How in the world is your son to learn to be respectful to a person who can't handle that bit herself. How in the world is your ex supposed to not care about what is going on over at your address, if it consists of stuff like this. Think very thoroughly here.
More in general, it is always a good idea to let one's new partners do as absolutely little as possible in terms of the education of one's kids, of giving directives, the lot. You can't run away from the fact that you're historically seen the boss for your kids. Enforcing, or allowing, your girlfriend to play the boss in your stead will never go well beyond a certain point.
So, to solve this, re-dial and try to find a model where running a household becomes a thing one does together.
Concretely, your son not only must get told, but must be shown actual positive proof (by the grownups' example) that the effort everyone makes in fact does lead to a better atmosphere, lifestyle, more harmonious family, you name it - the things one loves about being together in a home of sorts.
The words I quoted above do not represent that type of proof. It is your call do do something about that. As it seems now, your son is only adjusting to the rough winds - by blowing back.
(A general note about "talking back." Grownups argue; kids imitate; intelligent kids have a lot of own steam - meaning that they argue well. That hurts occasionally, but to subdue this behavior is a shitty idea nevertheless. The only thing really needed is that the grownups themselves learn to argue in a neat fashion, so that the kids learn what's okay and what's not. The grownups need to give guidance and provide rules that they themselves don't break (because grownups are not holy and kids are not little shits). Short version: talking back is learned behavior. Look into the mirror.)
posted by Namlit at 5:17 AM on December 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
Here we go again: kid question, same answer. Variation: it's your GF that really needs to absorb this stuff. Discipline doesn't need to be punitive to be effective, and off-the-scale punishments and trash-talking abuse are not discipline.
At eight years old, kid should certainly be included in the discussion about how we're all going to forgive past mistakes and do 1-2-3 from here on. Giving him back his treasured possession would also be a big help.
posted by flabdablet at 5:22 AM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
At eight years old, kid should certainly be included in the discussion about how we're all going to forgive past mistakes and do 1-2-3 from here on. Giving him back his treasured possession would also be a big help.
posted by flabdablet at 5:22 AM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
I grew up in a divorced household, and my mother dated some jerks. Your girlfriend reminds me of their behavior - name-calling, paranoia, and immature vindictiveness. You need to start paying attention to and remembering the details about how this is playing out, because in 10 years, your kid sure will.
I don't mean to be a dick, but come on, man - this is your son. Be there for him.
posted by ellF at 5:25 AM on December 19, 2011 [18 favorites]
I don't mean to be a dick, but come on, man - this is your son. Be there for him.
posted by ellF at 5:25 AM on December 19, 2011 [18 favorites]
DMFA
I think your girlfriend sounds insane.
Protect your child.
posted by mearls at 5:28 AM on December 19, 2011 [29 favorites]
I think your girlfriend sounds insane.
Protect your child.
posted by mearls at 5:28 AM on December 19, 2011 [29 favorites]
things like he's "devil spawn" or "evil." Telling me how mean he is, calling him a "little shit."
Mommy dearest! This has brought back such familiar holiday feelings for me – those of deathly chilling remarks stabbed into my back like so many cold icicles, only to melt and leave no trace of who had wounded me so. ("Mommy dearest" is the title of a movie about a mother with Borderline Personality Disorder. Mine had that. She called me "evil" and "satanic" regularly, as well as "whore" starting in middle school.)
She also believes that my ex-wife (who has since remarried) has been telling him to misbehave with her, and saying bad things about her to my son. I always dismissed this as parinoia on my GF's part, because there was no evidence of that and didn't think my ex would sink so low.
Last week, my GF was trying to get both of the kids to do their homework while I was away doing something else. My son must have said something mean to my GF, or talked back to her (I don't really know exactly what happened) but my GF asked him why he thought he didn't have to listen to her and do what she says. He replied by saying his mother told him he didn't have to do what she said and not to listen to her. My GF didn't even mention those whole episode to me until much latter in the night and didn't even want me to discuss it with my child, but I insisted on it.
No concrete examples of his bad behavior? And she's laying the ground to convincingly paint your ex as the machinating one?
Well. Your ex telling your son not to listen to your new GF makes perfect sense from your ex's point of view if your new girlfriend is indeed calling him such things as "evil" and "devil spawn" to his face when you're not around to witness it.
I am getting SUCH a bad vibe from the way your GF speaks about this whole thing. Does she show any respect for your son at all?
posted by fraula at 5:30 AM on December 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
Mommy dearest! This has brought back such familiar holiday feelings for me – those of deathly chilling remarks stabbed into my back like so many cold icicles, only to melt and leave no trace of who had wounded me so. ("Mommy dearest" is the title of a movie about a mother with Borderline Personality Disorder. Mine had that. She called me "evil" and "satanic" regularly, as well as "whore" starting in middle school.)
She also believes that my ex-wife (who has since remarried) has been telling him to misbehave with her, and saying bad things about her to my son. I always dismissed this as parinoia on my GF's part, because there was no evidence of that and didn't think my ex would sink so low.
Last week, my GF was trying to get both of the kids to do their homework while I was away doing something else. My son must have said something mean to my GF, or talked back to her (I don't really know exactly what happened) but my GF asked him why he thought he didn't have to listen to her and do what she says. He replied by saying his mother told him he didn't have to do what she said and not to listen to her. My GF didn't even mention those whole episode to me until much latter in the night and didn't even want me to discuss it with my child, but I insisted on it.
No concrete examples of his bad behavior? And she's laying the ground to convincingly paint your ex as the machinating one?
Well. Your ex telling your son not to listen to your new GF makes perfect sense from your ex's point of view if your new girlfriend is indeed calling him such things as "evil" and "devil spawn" to his face when you're not around to witness it.
I am getting SUCH a bad vibe from the way your GF speaks about this whole thing. Does she show any respect for your son at all?
posted by fraula at 5:30 AM on December 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
the punishment wasn't administered until four hours after the offense took place
That's not discipline. It's not even punishment. That there is straight vindictive retribution. It's a bullshit move. GF needs to lift her game.
posted by flabdablet at 5:31 AM on December 19, 2011 [26 favorites]
That's not discipline. It's not even punishment. That there is straight vindictive retribution. It's a bullshit move. GF needs to lift her game.
posted by flabdablet at 5:31 AM on December 19, 2011 [26 favorites]
Yeah, after thinking about it, it sounds like you need to ditch your GF. She's not marrying material.
posted by KokuRyu at 5:31 AM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by KokuRyu at 5:31 AM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
You can't marry/settle down with someone who hates your kid. Okay, so many people do, but it is such a betrayal of your kid's safety and happiness. He can't defend himself against her! She can and will fuck up his entire childhood, as evil stepparents are wont to do.
Right now, SHE HATES YOUR KID. Calling a freaking 8-year-old devil spawn to your face (what does that make you? Hmm?) shows that she doesn't have a whole lot of sense, and I bet she calls him worse or does worse behind your back. I know nannycams are creepy, but you might need one in this case because she is not being credible about what she does here or why she haaaaates him so much.
I don't know what happened between 4 years ago and 8 months (it does seem odd that the relationship between them hasn't always been awful), but it sounds like family therapy is really needed here at best, and a breakup of the household so she's not under power to discipline him at worst. And tell her that if she can't love your "devil spawn" and treat him as her own, she's outta here.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:32 AM on December 19, 2011 [38 favorites]
Right now, SHE HATES YOUR KID. Calling a freaking 8-year-old devil spawn to your face (what does that make you? Hmm?) shows that she doesn't have a whole lot of sense, and I bet she calls him worse or does worse behind your back. I know nannycams are creepy, but you might need one in this case because she is not being credible about what she does here or why she haaaaates him so much.
I don't know what happened between 4 years ago and 8 months (it does seem odd that the relationship between them hasn't always been awful), but it sounds like family therapy is really needed here at best, and a breakup of the household so she's not under power to discipline him at worst. And tell her that if she can't love your "devil spawn" and treat him as her own, she's outta here.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:32 AM on December 19, 2011 [38 favorites]
Family therapy, at least, but at the point where she is calling your kid names (and if he is "devil's spawn" what does that make you?) and throwing weird emotionally targeted and disproportionate punishments at him, I personally feel like The Line is a few steps behind you, sorry to say.
posted by dirtdirt at 5:39 AM on December 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by dirtdirt at 5:39 AM on December 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
Or exactly ditto Jenfullmoon.
posted by dirtdirt at 5:40 AM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by dirtdirt at 5:40 AM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
please please please don't confuse this- your GF is the adult. Protect your child, talk to your ex, and dump the GF. this whole thing is going to go all kinds of bad if you don't nip it in the bud soon.
posted by Blisterlips at 5:43 AM on December 19, 2011
posted by Blisterlips at 5:43 AM on December 19, 2011
Your kid sounds like a great kid. Your girlfriend sounds like a heinous bitch. I'm really amazed that your kid still is behaving and isn't acting out considering how painfully obvious it must be that your live-in girlfriend hates him.
He might still be fine right now, but if you keep failing to protect him from her, this is going to start leaving scars. I think you should break up with her. She might be a great person in other respects, but she's not cut out to be your kid's step-mom.
Re: your other question, he's about as obedient as you can expect a kid his age to be. And, if I have it right, he's equally obedient of you and your girlfriend. Which is pretty amazing. If I could tell she hated me (which he probably can, and she clearly does), I would be unlikely to obey at all. Kids aren't little obedience machines in any situation (nor should they be -- testing boundaries is an important part of development), and christ, despite the fact that you're his dad, this chick isn't his mom (or even step-mom).
posted by J. Wilson at 5:44 AM on December 19, 2011 [13 favorites]
He might still be fine right now, but if you keep failing to protect him from her, this is going to start leaving scars. I think you should break up with her. She might be a great person in other respects, but she's not cut out to be your kid's step-mom.
Re: your other question, he's about as obedient as you can expect a kid his age to be. And, if I have it right, he's equally obedient of you and your girlfriend. Which is pretty amazing. If I could tell she hated me (which he probably can, and she clearly does), I would be unlikely to obey at all. Kids aren't little obedience machines in any situation (nor should they be -- testing boundaries is an important part of development), and christ, despite the fact that you're his dad, this chick isn't his mom (or even step-mom).
posted by J. Wilson at 5:44 AM on December 19, 2011 [13 favorites]
My Dad had a girlfriend when I was your son's age and she really didn't like me. And the year or so that she lived with us is still probably the worst year of my life to date. Unless you've been through the experience of being a step child, I don't think you can really understand how horrible it is. As a kid, you have no control. This person who dislikes you and resents you has moved into YOUR HOME for godsakes and there's nothing you can do about it. What should be a safe space becomes a place where you absolutely dread being.
What my father perceived as my acting out at the time was really my reacting to a toxic situation. At 10, I really couldn't say to my Dad, "hey that woman you are dating, do you really think she's for you if she resents your kids this much/still has problems with her abusive ex?" it wasn't until years later when my dad started dating his current girlfriend (who has always treated my brother and I with love and respect even if everything isn't always perfect) that I realized how fucked up the first situation was. If I were you I'd either break up or at the very least live separately for awhile until you've worked this out. Because your son deserves to live in a place where everyone respects and loves him. And if your gf is calling him an "evil" "little shit" than your home is not that type of place right now.
posted by bananafish at 5:50 AM on December 19, 2011 [46 favorites]
What my father perceived as my acting out at the time was really my reacting to a toxic situation. At 10, I really couldn't say to my Dad, "hey that woman you are dating, do you really think she's for you if she resents your kids this much/still has problems with her abusive ex?" it wasn't until years later when my dad started dating his current girlfriend (who has always treated my brother and I with love and respect even if everything isn't always perfect) that I realized how fucked up the first situation was. If I were you I'd either break up or at the very least live separately for awhile until you've worked this out. Because your son deserves to live in a place where everyone respects and loves him. And if your gf is calling him an "evil" "little shit" than your home is not that type of place right now.
posted by bananafish at 5:50 AM on December 19, 2011 [46 favorites]
Your girlfriend sounds very insecure and immature. She's a mother herself and speaks about your child, any child, like this? Even if she weren't a mother it's pretty petty stuff for an adult. Is she going to intentionally create disharmony and drama in your household over an 8-year-old? An 8-year-old that happens to be your wonderful child?
She feels threatened, insecure, and jealous. You need to defend your child and have a long talk with the girlfriend. I would also have a talk with your kid and apologize to him. How confusing it must be for your son. His father is asking him to obey and be respectful to a woman who is cruel and dislikes him. And how sad that your son had to apologize to her. She should be apologizing to him. You have to stop this dynamic. I understand you love both people and want to make everybody happy. You're confused right now but it should be crystal clear. Do not let this woman talk about, or to, your child like this. She needs to go to therapy or at least some heavy soul-searching why she feels so jealous and threatened. Loving and accepting should be her mantra not this soul-crushing, bitter behavior.
posted by Fairchild at 6:08 AM on December 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
She feels threatened, insecure, and jealous. You need to defend your child and have a long talk with the girlfriend. I would also have a talk with your kid and apologize to him. How confusing it must be for your son. His father is asking him to obey and be respectful to a woman who is cruel and dislikes him. And how sad that your son had to apologize to her. She should be apologizing to him. You have to stop this dynamic. I understand you love both people and want to make everybody happy. You're confused right now but it should be crystal clear. Do not let this woman talk about, or to, your child like this. She needs to go to therapy or at least some heavy soul-searching why she feels so jealous and threatened. Loving and accepting should be her mantra not this soul-crushing, bitter behavior.
posted by Fairchild at 6:08 AM on December 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
We're all reacting very strongly to "evil" and "little shit" because dude, that's so far from being okay. I think you included those examples because you know on some level it isn't right, but I hope we're showing just how very wrong it is. Please please please do something about this - and no, your son is not the problem here.
posted by estlin at 6:12 AM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by estlin at 6:12 AM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
This question has got to me a bit, the more I think about it - sorry for the repeated posts. I'm trying to work out where you are in all this. From the tone of your question, I am picking up some underlying concerns on your own part about what might be reasonable behaviour or not on the part of your partner towards your son. Then on the other hand you are looking to "defend" your partner against your son, and I'm getting some negative vibes about that.
What have you said to her when she complains about him? Have you defended him at all to her? Have you said, "Surely, you being a mom, you know this is normal / not significantly bad behaviour"? And if you haven't then why haven't you? Have you had a word with your ex about your son and how he's seemed to her in the last 8 months? If not, why not? Even if you don't get on with your ex, surely you talk about your's son's well-being and what's best for him and what's upsetting him?
I just have this picture in my mind of a sad little boy full of worry and fear about what's going on with the grown-ups and why he keeps getting singled out for tellings-off and why he had Bear taken away when he couldn't really remember what he'd done and Mom saying it's OK to stand up for yourself and Dad asking him why he is making Stepmom's life so hard and can't he try to be good and Stepmom saying ALL Those Nasty Things and it causing this huge insecurity /anxiety /confusion. That poor little fellow - I feel so sorry for him. Come on, Dad.
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 6:13 AM on December 19, 2011 [34 favorites]
What have you said to her when she complains about him? Have you defended him at all to her? Have you said, "Surely, you being a mom, you know this is normal / not significantly bad behaviour"? And if you haven't then why haven't you? Have you had a word with your ex about your son and how he's seemed to her in the last 8 months? If not, why not? Even if you don't get on with your ex, surely you talk about your's son's well-being and what's best for him and what's upsetting him?
I just have this picture in my mind of a sad little boy full of worry and fear about what's going on with the grown-ups and why he keeps getting singled out for tellings-off and why he had Bear taken away when he couldn't really remember what he'd done and Mom saying it's OK to stand up for yourself and Dad asking him why he is making Stepmom's life so hard and can't he try to be good and Stepmom saying ALL Those Nasty Things and it causing this huge insecurity /anxiety /confusion. That poor little fellow - I feel so sorry for him. Come on, Dad.
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 6:13 AM on December 19, 2011 [34 favorites]
Having been the stepchild in a similar situation, I need to very strongly echo others in the thread. You would (presumably) instantly fire a babysitter who called your son an evil little shit. You would know that that person was unsafe to leave alone with your child, and you know the same thing about your girlfriend. You are just in denial about what you need to do. Get out while you still have any chance of salvaging your relationship with your son in the long term. If you feel unable to leave your GF, you should ceede custody to his mother, and re-arrange things so that you have occasional visits with him in which the girlfriend is not involved.
Your girlfriend has no intention of ever being a parent to your child, whom she probably regards as an impediment and a reminder of your relationship with his mother. Your girlfriend will not change, your son knows this: he knows the choice you are making, and he will remember that you chose your girlfriend over him.
If I were your ex, I would be suing for full custody as soon as possible: You are deliberately and consistently putting your son in danger, and your ex has the responsibility to put a stop to it and protect your son if you will not.
posted by Wylla at 6:15 AM on December 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
Your girlfriend has no intention of ever being a parent to your child, whom she probably regards as an impediment and a reminder of your relationship with his mother. Your girlfriend will not change, your son knows this: he knows the choice you are making, and he will remember that you chose your girlfriend over him.
If I were your ex, I would be suing for full custody as soon as possible: You are deliberately and consistently putting your son in danger, and your ex has the responsibility to put a stop to it and protect your son if you will not.
posted by Wylla at 6:15 AM on December 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
I have sweet, polite, well behaved kids. One is eight and the other just turned eleven.
They really are good kids. Everyone says so.
I still yell my head off every morning getting them ready for school. Getting homework done is a fight too. Bath time, clean-up time, teeth brushing... More of the same.
THEY'RE KIDS!! Of course a ten year old will be better behaved than an eight year old! HE'S OLDER!! This is basic logic. Your girlfriend seems to be ignoring this.
It seems like your GF doesn't understand the difficulties involved with being a blended family. At the very least maybe you should get her a few books on the subject.
I find it very hard to blame and eight year old son of divorced parents. The fact that he isn't being flagrantly abusive is a plus in his favor. I knew a kid who set his stepmother's hair on fire. (Not even kidding.)
As a parent I'd be more than "greatly troubled" if she called my kid those names. You know, if your kid is the spawn of Satan then that doesn't say much about you - Mr. Prince of Darkness.
We're talking about a grown woman compared to an eight year old. The eight year old is not acting in a way that is ideal, but it isn't unusual or unexpected. The grown woman is behaving childish, selfish, and whiny. She's the one who needs to grow up.
posted by TooFewShoes at 6:24 AM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
They really are good kids. Everyone says so.
I still yell my head off every morning getting them ready for school. Getting homework done is a fight too. Bath time, clean-up time, teeth brushing... More of the same.
THEY'RE KIDS!! Of course a ten year old will be better behaved than an eight year old! HE'S OLDER!! This is basic logic. Your girlfriend seems to be ignoring this.
It seems like your GF doesn't understand the difficulties involved with being a blended family. At the very least maybe you should get her a few books on the subject.
I find it very hard to blame and eight year old son of divorced parents. The fact that he isn't being flagrantly abusive is a plus in his favor. I knew a kid who set his stepmother's hair on fire. (Not even kidding.)
As a parent I'd be more than "greatly troubled" if she called my kid those names. You know, if your kid is the spawn of Satan then that doesn't say much about you - Mr. Prince of Darkness.
We're talking about a grown woman compared to an eight year old. The eight year old is not acting in a way that is ideal, but it isn't unusual or unexpected. The grown woman is behaving childish, selfish, and whiny. She's the one who needs to grow up.
posted by TooFewShoes at 6:24 AM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
Sounds like the Cinderella Effect to me.
posted by Feel the beat of the rhythm of the night at 6:31 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Feel the beat of the rhythm of the night at 6:31 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
Nthing everyone. I've been fortunate to have had two good stepmothers, but the same can't be said for my husband.
If you stay with this woman, he'll wonder forever why you chose her over him, because kids know in their souls that their parents are supposed to take care of them first. Kids feel a horrible wrongness and confusion when their parents de-prioritize them, in favor of someone who treats them poorly. If you think your kid is acting out now, wait until he's had a few years for this woman's abuse (and your implicit rejection) to sink into his psyche.
My admittedly anecdotal experience suggests that your girlfriend's behavior has only a scant chance of improving. Whether she will admit it or not, she's at war with your kid, and she's trying to lay the groundwork to truly alienate you from your son. Keep her around, and you may just be winding down the clock until she starts calling the cops on your son for normal teenage misbehavior.
posted by Coatlicue at 6:32 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
If you stay with this woman, he'll wonder forever why you chose her over him, because kids know in their souls that their parents are supposed to take care of them first. Kids feel a horrible wrongness and confusion when their parents de-prioritize them, in favor of someone who treats them poorly. If you think your kid is acting out now, wait until he's had a few years for this woman's abuse (and your implicit rejection) to sink into his psyche.
My admittedly anecdotal experience suggests that your girlfriend's behavior has only a scant chance of improving. Whether she will admit it or not, she's at war with your kid, and she's trying to lay the groundwork to truly alienate you from your son. Keep her around, and you may just be winding down the clock until she starts calling the cops on your son for normal teenage misbehavior.
posted by Coatlicue at 6:32 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
She's a bully.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 6:32 AM on December 19, 2011 [8 favorites]
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 6:32 AM on December 19, 2011 [8 favorites]
This is going to sour his adult relationships with women as he chafes under any perceived "controlling" behavior by them ("honey would you please pick up the dry cleaning" will turn into "you can't tell me what to do"). I wouldn't be surprised if HE starts believing he's a little shit (since his dad isn't forcefully counteracting that) and he'll live into that role. You need to show him you're on his side.
posted by desjardins at 6:35 AM on December 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 6:35 AM on December 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
So I also don't know how or if I should bring this up with my ex?
If your relationship with your ex is essentially cordial: yes, you should. At the moment you have your kid's take on what she said, and your GF's take on what the kid said she said, but you don't actually know what she meant. And until you do, interpreting this as some kind of attempt to drive a wedge between GF and kid might well be unjustifiable.
I also think that calls for you to dump GF immediately are a little harsh. Your kid may well have hated her from Day 1 - he may well have her down as the reason why you and his mother are not still together, and he may well be deliberately winding her up when nobody else is looking, and it may well be that she is now at her wits' end and has no skills for coping with this. That doesn't make either of them bad people.
GF needs to start treating kid fairly and with respect, regardless of his attitude towards her, rather than getting sucked into a playground-style war with him. She also needs to know that she is in charge because she's the adult, and that it's OK for her to have reasonable requirements of him and for him to be expected to accommodate those. The only way any of that is ever going to happen is if she acquires some non-abusive, non-punitive, effective discipline skills. And as the adult, it's on her to do that.
It might well take a long time for kid to stop seeing her as the evil mother-usurper and stealer-of-teddy-bears, and until he does, he's going to test her out. She needs to be up to dealing with that in positive ways. Hopefully, gaining some proper discipline skills will help that become possible for her.
But if she doesn't change the way she does things, and she doesn't start treating your kid as if he were her kid, and push does come to shove, then your priority must be your kid's well-being even if that does mean changing your living arrangements and/or breaking up.
posted by flabdablet at 6:35 AM on December 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
If your relationship with your ex is essentially cordial: yes, you should. At the moment you have your kid's take on what she said, and your GF's take on what the kid said she said, but you don't actually know what she meant. And until you do, interpreting this as some kind of attempt to drive a wedge between GF and kid might well be unjustifiable.
I also think that calls for you to dump GF immediately are a little harsh. Your kid may well have hated her from Day 1 - he may well have her down as the reason why you and his mother are not still together, and he may well be deliberately winding her up when nobody else is looking, and it may well be that she is now at her wits' end and has no skills for coping with this. That doesn't make either of them bad people.
GF needs to start treating kid fairly and with respect, regardless of his attitude towards her, rather than getting sucked into a playground-style war with him. She also needs to know that she is in charge because she's the adult, and that it's OK for her to have reasonable requirements of him and for him to be expected to accommodate those. The only way any of that is ever going to happen is if she acquires some non-abusive, non-punitive, effective discipline skills. And as the adult, it's on her to do that.
It might well take a long time for kid to stop seeing her as the evil mother-usurper and stealer-of-teddy-bears, and until he does, he's going to test her out. She needs to be up to dealing with that in positive ways. Hopefully, gaining some proper discipline skills will help that become possible for her.
But if she doesn't change the way she does things, and she doesn't start treating your kid as if he were her kid, and push does come to shove, then your priority must be your kid's well-being even if that does mean changing your living arrangements and/or breaking up.
posted by flabdablet at 6:35 AM on December 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
Other than therapy, which is a very good idea, maybe you and GF need to be on the same page about a discipline strategy? This way there is no ambiguity about what is appropriate/inappropriate both from the child's behavior and from the adult's punishment given.
posted by k8t at 6:37 AM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by k8t at 6:37 AM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
The confusion of character with conduct (bad behavior equals intrinsically bad kid), plus signs of splitting (her kid is the "good" one, yours is the "bad" one, even though they don't sound that much different) are HUGE red flags, and a prescription for huge therapy bills for your kid down the road if you don't stand up for him. You can tell a kid his behavior disappoints or hurts you; you can't call him an evil person.
posted by availablelight at 6:54 AM on December 19, 2011 [19 favorites]
posted by availablelight at 6:54 AM on December 19, 2011 [19 favorites]
So it's very clear that your girlfriend is frustrated and upset. But it's also clear that she's dealing with her feelings in a way that is utterly, completely, and indisputably unacceptable. She is abusing him emotionally, whether she means to or not. She is being cruel and vindictive to a defenseless child who, in his short life, has had his family torn apart and is now being shuttled back and forth between two households. In other words, he's an 8 year old dealing with a ton of stress. What's her excuse?
I think you need to keep your girlfriend and your son apart, for your son's protection, unless and until you are 100% sure that he is completely emotionally safe around her. It's up to you as his parent to figure out the logistics of that, whether it means that you and she live separately, or he lives full time with his mother and visits with you in neutral spaces where she is not present. Personally, I think you should break up with her, but that's not my decision to make. What is clear is that you cannot continue to expose him to her until he is safe with her, which means that they don't see each other until she is able to admit that she has behaved unacceptably towards him and until she has a clear strategy in place for treating him better, even when he upsets her.
Everyone in this situation needs someone safe to talk to. It sounds as though your son talks with his mother, but it might be worth checking in with her to see whether she thinks he could benefit from therapy. You and your girlfriend might also want to talk with a professional about your relationship and about how the two of you deal with your child. But no matter what you do, your child needs to be taken out of this situation, for his own protection. If you don't do this for him, you are part of the problem.
posted by decathecting at 6:56 AM on December 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
I think you need to keep your girlfriend and your son apart, for your son's protection, unless and until you are 100% sure that he is completely emotionally safe around her. It's up to you as his parent to figure out the logistics of that, whether it means that you and she live separately, or he lives full time with his mother and visits with you in neutral spaces where she is not present. Personally, I think you should break up with her, but that's not my decision to make. What is clear is that you cannot continue to expose him to her until he is safe with her, which means that they don't see each other until she is able to admit that she has behaved unacceptably towards him and until she has a clear strategy in place for treating him better, even when he upsets her.
Everyone in this situation needs someone safe to talk to. It sounds as though your son talks with his mother, but it might be worth checking in with her to see whether she thinks he could benefit from therapy. You and your girlfriend might also want to talk with a professional about your relationship and about how the two of you deal with your child. But no matter what you do, your child needs to be taken out of this situation, for his own protection. If you don't do this for him, you are part of the problem.
posted by decathecting at 6:56 AM on December 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
"We need to have a very serious conversation. If you truly believe that Kid is the devil's spawn, or evil, or mean, or a little shit, then we have no future as a family together. There is just no way that that can work, for any of us. So I want you to think about it. If you don't truly believe those things you've said about him, but there's something else going on for you when it comes to Kid, then I need you to think long and hard about what that is so we can figure out if it's something we can address in a more productive way. What I know for sure is that you talking and feeling that way about him is a destructive force in this house, and I cannot let it continue."
posted by argonauta at 7:01 AM on December 19, 2011 [38 favorites]
posted by argonauta at 7:01 AM on December 19, 2011 [38 favorites]
Choose your child. You need to be in his corner. That's what being his parent is about. I'm not clear why you want to be with a person who would treat any child like that, let alone your own boy. Choose your child!
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 7:10 AM on December 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 7:10 AM on December 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
This is absolutely unacceptable behavior on your gf's part. What's more, you know it is. Your post paints her in an extremely negative light. Go back and read it again - do you want to be in a relationship with someone who behaves this way?
Family therapy can help, but first your gf needs to admit that she has a problem. Right now, she seems to think that the problem is your son's behavior. This is utter bullshit. Your son sounds, if anything, exceptionally well-behaved for an eight year old. (Your gf, on the other hand, sounds pretty childish). She needs to understand that, actually, the entirety of the responsibility here lies with her. This is going to be a hard sell. I don't usually like ultamatums (ultamata, I guess), but I think this situation calls for one: either she goes to therapy with you or this relationship is over. Then, if she refuses, get your son what he really wants for Christmas: this woman out of his life.
posted by Ragged Richard at 7:11 AM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Family therapy can help, but first your gf needs to admit that she has a problem. Right now, she seems to think that the problem is your son's behavior. This is utter bullshit. Your son sounds, if anything, exceptionally well-behaved for an eight year old. (Your gf, on the other hand, sounds pretty childish). She needs to understand that, actually, the entirety of the responsibility here lies with her. This is going to be a hard sell. I don't usually like ultamatums (ultamata, I guess), but I think this situation calls for one: either she goes to therapy with you or this relationship is over. Then, if she refuses, get your son what he really wants for Christmas: this woman out of his life.
posted by Ragged Richard at 7:11 AM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Also, your ex-wife is NOT undermining their relationship. Your girlfriend is.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 7:11 AM on December 19, 2011 [20 favorites]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 7:11 AM on December 19, 2011 [20 favorites]
I know too many people whose childhoods were ruined by cruel step-parents, and who have carried life-long anger towards the parent who prioritised their own romantic desires over their child's well-being. Psychological abuse of step-children is sadly very common, and can have long-lasting effects on both the step-child's ability to form relationships with others in adulthood, and their relationship with the parent who failed to protect them.
If a hired nanny told you your son was evil, devil spawn, and had been giving her the evil eye, you would not consider her a fit caretaker of your child. You'd wonder what else she had been saying or doing to your child in your absence, and what she might be capable of doing to him if she were sufficiently angry. Would you even go to the trouble to set up a nanny cam before firing her? There is obviously more at stake for you here, but the general principle remains the same—as a parent, you absolutely cannot delegate the care of your child to someone who you suspect is mistreating them.
posted by hot soup girl at 7:14 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
If a hired nanny told you your son was evil, devil spawn, and had been giving her the evil eye, you would not consider her a fit caretaker of your child. You'd wonder what else she had been saying or doing to your child in your absence, and what she might be capable of doing to him if she were sufficiently angry. Would you even go to the trouble to set up a nanny cam before firing her? There is obviously more at stake for you here, but the general principle remains the same—as a parent, you absolutely cannot delegate the care of your child to someone who you suspect is mistreating them.
posted by hot soup girl at 7:14 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
Please talk to your son one-on-one. Take him out for a milkshake. Tell him you know that things have been hard since your living situation has changed. Ask him how things are going and really listen to what he says. Just give him a chance to talk to you privately. Let him know you care about how he is feeling, and that you are there to help him. I think that's the first step, to understand what is happening from his perspective before you figure out what to do about your girlfriend.
posted by chickenmagazine at 7:16 AM on December 19, 2011 [20 favorites]
posted by chickenmagazine at 7:16 AM on December 19, 2011 [20 favorites]
Your description of GF really creeps me out, particularly the "evil eye" bit. It's ironic and sad that if she used her fists to do what she appears to do with her mouth, DSS would be on her case in a minute if they found out. A lot of people fly under the radar because they don't get physical with their violence.
You can replace the girlfriend. You can't replace your flesh and blood.
And, on preview, seconding chickenmagazine (as well as many other commenters on the other issues). Your kid needs a safe place to vent.
posted by Currer Belfry at 7:18 AM on December 19, 2011
You can replace the girlfriend. You can't replace your flesh and blood.
And, on preview, seconding chickenmagazine (as well as many other commenters on the other issues). Your kid needs a safe place to vent.
posted by Currer Belfry at 7:18 AM on December 19, 2011
For what it's worth, my theory is that your girlfriend, consciously or subconsciously or some combination thereof, wants you to conclude that she and your kid just don't really get along, and he's kind of a handful anyway, so maybe it'd make sense and be better for him, even, just to have him live with your ex-wife full-time for a while (which would become permanent). That way she gets the little family unit of three she's always wanted -- her kid, her husband, and no annoying complications. Does that seem like a possible explanation to you?
posted by argonauta at 7:23 AM on December 19, 2011 [39 favorites]
posted by argonauta at 7:23 AM on December 19, 2011 [39 favorites]
Not the same situation, but my anecdote might help to see how this might affect your son long term. My mom was difficult and always expected me to be someone I was not. She was usually disappointed in me somehow. My dad was awesome and always told me how great I was and that I could be anyone I wanted to be when we were together alone. However, when my mom was insisting that I change some behavior or my very nature, my dad would always ask that I obey my mother (who didn't even come close to thinking that I was the devil's spawn or evil).
As I grew up, I came to realize that my dad (the "better" of my 2 parents) wasn't really better. He knew that what my mom did to denigrate my "me-ness" and autonomy was wrong, but nevertheless asked that I do so anyway to keep his peace with my mom. He abandoned me in a way and failed to protect me when he knew deep down that I was okay the way I was--he told me so all the time when we were alone! He knew better but did nothing about it for his own reasons (probably not wanting to incur the wrath of my mom).
When I first started therapy (yes, this dynamic necessitated a lot of it), my mom was the frequent subject of what went wrong growing up. But I quickly came to realize and really resent and be disgusted by his having thrown me under the bus for his own sake. He didn't protect me from my mother (who did not go so far as to consider me evil) and I must sadly admit that I still don't know how to forgive him for that. We have been estranged for a decade.
Protect your son...mostly for his sake, but for yours as well if you care to have your son think of you as his hero as I once did my own dad. It saddens me to no end when I realized he wasn't.
posted by murrey at 7:24 AM on December 19, 2011 [13 favorites]
As I grew up, I came to realize that my dad (the "better" of my 2 parents) wasn't really better. He knew that what my mom did to denigrate my "me-ness" and autonomy was wrong, but nevertheless asked that I do so anyway to keep his peace with my mom. He abandoned me in a way and failed to protect me when he knew deep down that I was okay the way I was--he told me so all the time when we were alone! He knew better but did nothing about it for his own reasons (probably not wanting to incur the wrath of my mom).
When I first started therapy (yes, this dynamic necessitated a lot of it), my mom was the frequent subject of what went wrong growing up. But I quickly came to realize and really resent and be disgusted by his having thrown me under the bus for his own sake. He didn't protect me from my mother (who did not go so far as to consider me evil) and I must sadly admit that I still don't know how to forgive him for that. We have been estranged for a decade.
Protect your son...mostly for his sake, but for yours as well if you care to have your son think of you as his hero as I once did my own dad. It saddens me to no end when I realized he wasn't.
posted by murrey at 7:24 AM on December 19, 2011 [13 favorites]
Why does she feel so free to talk trash about your own child in front of you? If you've asked her repeatedly to stop doing this and she keeps doing it, she's being incredibly disrespectful towards you. Not to mention that she sounds selfish and hateful.
especially since he had no warning that it could be a consequence and the punishment wasn't administered until four hours after the offense took place.
It sounds like she actively steamed and stewed over whatever he didn't do for four hours until she came up with the most hurtful thing possible. She doesn't want your son in her life and she's not going to stop what she's doing. She sounds so dreadful as you've portrayed her here that I can't imagine how you could have any respect for her.
posted by iconomy at 7:30 AM on December 19, 2011 [13 favorites]
especially since he had no warning that it could be a consequence and the punishment wasn't administered until four hours after the offense took place.
It sounds like she actively steamed and stewed over whatever he didn't do for four hours until she came up with the most hurtful thing possible. She doesn't want your son in her life and she's not going to stop what she's doing. She sounds so dreadful as you've portrayed her here that I can't imagine how you could have any respect for her.
posted by iconomy at 7:30 AM on December 19, 2011 [13 favorites]
What exactly has the son been doing that she thinks is mean, other than being told to do something a few times?
Did your son ever express to you that he didn't like her in some way? Have you had a lot of live-in girlfriends in the past?
Your girlfriend is not really being mature and she's not very good with your son. I have to agree with the other commenters when they express disbelief that you're letting her badmouth your son and making it seem like that's okay with you. I'm surprised that you're living with someone who would and that you're not actively communicating your thoughts about how you feel like she's not applying the same standards to her kid.
posted by anniecat at 7:32 AM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Did your son ever express to you that he didn't like her in some way? Have you had a lot of live-in girlfriends in the past?
Your girlfriend is not really being mature and she's not very good with your son. I have to agree with the other commenters when they express disbelief that you're letting her badmouth your son and making it seem like that's okay with you. I'm surprised that you're living with someone who would and that you're not actively communicating your thoughts about how you feel like she's not applying the same standards to her kid.
posted by anniecat at 7:32 AM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Argonauta has this all the way. I am a step-mother to a 12 yr old boy, but I've been in his life since he was 3.
We had lots of problems with eachother when I moved in with him and his dad. I acted exactly like what you are describing...and I'm ashamed of myself to this day. I wanted exactly what Argonauta said, and I have a feeling she does too.
My husband had a frank talk with me and basically said change or leave. I chose to change, because I loved him and didn't want to leave.
It took a very long time, but I repaired my relationship with my step-son and we get along wonderfully now. I apologized to him and did everything I could to make up those couple of years I wasn't very kind.
Have an honest dicussion with her about the behavior on HER part, have a talk with him, and see if she changes. If she doesn't, let her go. Your son should be more important.
posted by Sweetmag at 7:49 AM on December 19, 2011 [29 favorites]
We had lots of problems with eachother when I moved in with him and his dad. I acted exactly like what you are describing...and I'm ashamed of myself to this day. I wanted exactly what Argonauta said, and I have a feeling she does too.
My husband had a frank talk with me and basically said change or leave. I chose to change, because I loved him and didn't want to leave.
It took a very long time, but I repaired my relationship with my step-son and we get along wonderfully now. I apologized to him and did everything I could to make up those couple of years I wasn't very kind.
Have an honest dicussion with her about the behavior on HER part, have a talk with him, and see if she changes. If she doesn't, let her go. Your son should be more important.
posted by Sweetmag at 7:49 AM on December 19, 2011 [29 favorites]
You know the name calling is so wrong. I teach HS with teenagers who do insane things and I would NEVER call them those names. And to say things like that in front of a parent? Are you kidding me? You sound like a nice reasonable guy with a nice kid and a relatively peaceful situation with your ex-wife. Why would you let this woman, your girlfriend, come in and cause so many problems. I think you should tell her that if she can't get along with timmy (or whatever your son's name is) then you need to re-evaluate your living situation. You can date her on your nights off. I think the person above might be on to something- she wants her son, her boyfriend, her little family and your original son just doesn't fit in. That is so not okay. Seriously let her know the consequences- everyone is telling you that teachers and other professional caretakers would be fired! She should love your son, and at the very least treat him with normal dignity and respect.
posted by bquarters at 7:56 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by bquarters at 7:56 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
For what it's worth, my theory is that your girlfriend, consciously or subconsciously or some combination thereof, wants you to conclude that she and your kid just don't really get along, and he's kind of a handful anyway, so maybe it'd make sense and be better for him, even, just to have him live with your ex-wife full-time
Yep, seconding this, it really rings true, and brave for Sweetmag to cop to it.
posted by thinkpiece at 8:01 AM on December 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
Yep, seconding this, it really rings true, and brave for Sweetmag to cop to it.
posted by thinkpiece at 8:01 AM on December 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
I love chickenmagazine's suggestion. It is a really, really good idea to communicate with your son first and foremost. If you just go and read the riot act to your girlfriend-- well, she certainly deserves it, but she may turn around and take it out on your son again and try to make him feel like he caused another batch of trouble. Make sure you have his back and that he knows it.
posted by BibiRose at 8:07 AM on December 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by BibiRose at 8:07 AM on December 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
Your GF has been a parent for 10 years already - raising her son based on her perspective, goals, opinions, and methodologies. While it sound like her son is not up for sainthood, you don't seem to indicate that he's terribly maladjusted. So, it would lead me to think she understands parenthood and probably isn't terrible at it.
But now you're asking her to step in as a parent of a child who has been raised his whole life by 2 parents with (likely) different perspective, goals, opinions and methodologies than what she used with her own son. Now you have 2 people (the GF and your son) out of their comfort zone. And now, this child has 3 parents instead of 2; and a whole new system of accountability.
Since your GF doesn't have the benefit of the previous 8 years of parenting your child, she got to figure out how to communicate and guide your son, when all she knows is her own perspective, her own experiences and her own methodologies. And she's frustrated that its not working. And your son is frustrated that he has yet ANOTHER parent harping on him about stuff.
Who's he most likely to ignore? Who's he most likely to give dirty looks to?
Is he evil? Surely not. Is he a frustrated 8yo kid? You betcha. Does that manifest itself in ways you wouldn't expect your own child to act? No doubt.
Your child does not need her to be a parent to him. Its unfair to either of them to put her in that position. He's already got 2 parents who seem to have done a fine job already. She needs to be a guardian to him - to keep him safe and fed and healthy when he's in her care. She can influence his life with her own perspective - but she cannot "raise" him as her own. Not when he's got 2 completely committed parents already.
posted by CorporateHippy at 8:25 AM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
But now you're asking her to step in as a parent of a child who has been raised his whole life by 2 parents with (likely) different perspective, goals, opinions and methodologies than what she used with her own son. Now you have 2 people (the GF and your son) out of their comfort zone. And now, this child has 3 parents instead of 2; and a whole new system of accountability.
Since your GF doesn't have the benefit of the previous 8 years of parenting your child, she got to figure out how to communicate and guide your son, when all she knows is her own perspective, her own experiences and her own methodologies. And she's frustrated that its not working. And your son is frustrated that he has yet ANOTHER parent harping on him about stuff.
Who's he most likely to ignore? Who's he most likely to give dirty looks to?
Is he evil? Surely not. Is he a frustrated 8yo kid? You betcha. Does that manifest itself in ways you wouldn't expect your own child to act? No doubt.
Your child does not need her to be a parent to him. Its unfair to either of them to put her in that position. He's already got 2 parents who seem to have done a fine job already. She needs to be a guardian to him - to keep him safe and fed and healthy when he's in her care. She can influence his life with her own perspective - but she cannot "raise" him as her own. Not when he's got 2 completely committed parents already.
posted by CorporateHippy at 8:25 AM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
I had a terrible stepmother, and although I only spent a few weeks each summer with her and my dad, I probably spent equal amounts of time working through those experiences in therapy. She hated me, and would complain to my father about all the misbehaving I was doing (I was actually a good kid!) and my dad would get angry with me for what she had said I'd done. I even stopped eating in front of them (at age 14) to try to gain some control and show them how awful they were making me feel. I'm lucky I didn't develop a full blown eating disorder. Your girlfriend has issues beyond paranoia, and you need to protect your child from her.
posted by whalebreath at 8:28 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by whalebreath at 8:28 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
My brother and I were in your kid's position. Our stepmom clearly preferred her own kids over ours. Things were pretty okay until she moved in, and then the yelling and random punishments gradually escalated over time. "Little shit" was a pretty common phrase. Eventually things got physical -- I was once choked into unconsciousness over a missing tennis racquet (which, as it turns out, was missing because my stepsister was playing with it). My brother was frequently spanked. I "ran away" from home (in quotes because I was 18) the day my stepmom kicked the blocks out from under a car THAT I WAS WORKING ON, because I had borrowed her flashlight without asking. Needless to say, my brother and I were pretty much psychologically traumatized and have experienced lasting repercussions in our adult lives.
Don't let your kid turn out like us. Make sure you've got your EIGHT-YEAR-OLD SON'S back, and dump the girlfriend if you have to. She could poison that little boy's entire life.
posted by kataclysm at 8:28 AM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
Don't let your kid turn out like us. Make sure you've got your EIGHT-YEAR-OLD SON'S back, and dump the girlfriend if you have to. She could poison that little boy's entire life.
posted by kataclysm at 8:28 AM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
Part of the problem I see here is that you are essentially saying to your child "GF is always right and you need to do what she says instantly, without question, and with an appreciative smile the whole time".
But that assumes that your GF has only the very best interests at heart for your child, isnt at all jealous, and treats both children fairly.
If this is not the case, then you are basically telling your son that you will always be on your GF's side not his. That his opinion and feelings are not as important to you as his obedience.
Why are you trusting your GF's word entirely? Why haven't you asked your son what is going on when you aren't around? I was your son when I was little and all that my father's behavior taught me was:
"Girlfriends are more important to me then you. My girlfriend can mistreat you if it pleases her. I don't care how you feel. You are alone, I will never help you."
Now I realize that this was not the case. It stemmed from an inherent belief my father had that "parents are good and right, children would not be punished if they didn't misbehave". Which is not always the case.
Please don't abandon your son. Talk to him. Listen to him. Believe him.
posted by Shouraku at 8:37 AM on December 19, 2011 [16 favorites]
But that assumes that your GF has only the very best interests at heart for your child, isnt at all jealous, and treats both children fairly.
If this is not the case, then you are basically telling your son that you will always be on your GF's side not his. That his opinion and feelings are not as important to you as his obedience.
Why are you trusting your GF's word entirely? Why haven't you asked your son what is going on when you aren't around? I was your son when I was little and all that my father's behavior taught me was:
"Girlfriends are more important to me then you. My girlfriend can mistreat you if it pleases her. I don't care how you feel. You are alone, I will never help you."
Now I realize that this was not the case. It stemmed from an inherent belief my father had that "parents are good and right, children would not be punished if they didn't misbehave". Which is not always the case.
Please don't abandon your son. Talk to him. Listen to him. Believe him.
posted by Shouraku at 8:37 AM on December 19, 2011 [16 favorites]
I agree with others that this isn't ok, and that in her ideal world it's likely she wouldn't have to spend as much/any time with your son.
Perhaps this doesn't apply to you, but there's often an expectation that the women will do the primary childcare. Do you spend as much time with your son as you would if she wasn't there? Are you relying on her to parent your son rather than doing it yourself?
posted by plonkee at 8:45 AM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
Perhaps this doesn't apply to you, but there's often an expectation that the women will do the primary childcare. Do you spend as much time with your son as you would if she wasn't there? Are you relying on her to parent your son rather than doing it yourself?
posted by plonkee at 8:45 AM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
I agree with most of the previous posters, but will give you another option. If you don't want to end this relationship, then you need to not live with your girlfriend. This is the route my mother and step-father took when there were clear differences in their parenting styles. They met when I was 13 and my sister was 9. He had a 16 year old daughter, and a 13 year old son. My step-father was a strict authoritarian with control issues. My mom was much more easygoing and touchy-feely. It was pretty clear to my mom that all of us living together would not be good for me or my sister. So they kept separate households until my sister (the youngest) went to college. Yup, they "dated" for 8 years before moving in together. We had celebrated holidays and took vacations together occasionally. They took turns spending the night at each others house.
I will always thank my mom for that. They are still together after 25 years (married for 15). And there have been conflicts between me, my sister, and my step-dad. But the difference is that we were adults, and could manage these situations as adults, and had "safe" places to go home to.
posted by kimdog at 8:49 AM on December 19, 2011 [17 favorites]
I will always thank my mom for that. They are still together after 25 years (married for 15). And there have been conflicts between me, my sister, and my step-dad. But the difference is that we were adults, and could manage these situations as adults, and had "safe" places to go home to.
posted by kimdog at 8:49 AM on December 19, 2011 [17 favorites]
I debated joining this pile on - I agree with it but if you're not convinced by now, it may be too late. However, I thought I'd add my voice because I am not an ex stepchild, I'm an ex stepmother. I was a stepmother for five years - not only to my husbands son from his first wife, but also to that first wife's two daughters from other marriages. I had a daughter of my own and my husband and I had a child together. So, five kids all in all, for five years and the kids were never, ever the problem. That's ridiculous. They were kids. The problems existed in my relationship with my husband but that's another issue. If you and/or your girlfriend cannot separate those two issues than you are in deep, deep trouble. Kids don't break up a relationship between two actual adults. Only adults have that terrible power.
Blended families aren't that damn hard. It's only as difficult as you make it. The simple, straightforward ground rule is this: all the kids in the family are all loved and respected the same, period, full stop. That never, by the way, includes calling them little shits or devil spawn or ever confiscating any beloved object of theirs. It means that, mostly, the whole family does fun things together as often as possible. If only one parent is available than all the kids are included and they are all treated the same. It also means that each parent takes time alone with each child now and then - a zoo trip, a shopping expedition, a movie - so that each child can have time to feel special with each parent. In the best scenario - which, I repeat, is not that damn difficult to achieve - what you are giving to the children is an extra parent. Everybody needs all the love and help they can get in this world and having three, or four, or six loving parents is the outcome you wish for. It doesn't sound like that's what you're getting here, at all. It sounds like you have three kids and two of them hate each other. Yuck.
posted by mygothlaundry at 8:51 AM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
Blended families aren't that damn hard. It's only as difficult as you make it. The simple, straightforward ground rule is this: all the kids in the family are all loved and respected the same, period, full stop. That never, by the way, includes calling them little shits or devil spawn or ever confiscating any beloved object of theirs. It means that, mostly, the whole family does fun things together as often as possible. If only one parent is available than all the kids are included and they are all treated the same. It also means that each parent takes time alone with each child now and then - a zoo trip, a shopping expedition, a movie - so that each child can have time to feel special with each parent. In the best scenario - which, I repeat, is not that damn difficult to achieve - what you are giving to the children is an extra parent. Everybody needs all the love and help they can get in this world and having three, or four, or six loving parents is the outcome you wish for. It doesn't sound like that's what you're getting here, at all. It sounds like you have three kids and two of them hate each other. Yuck.
posted by mygothlaundry at 8:51 AM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
Please leave this woman, for your child. You are doing deep, serious damage to your child by allowing this woman any power over him. He sounds like a normal kid, and she sounds broken and hateful. Even if he was higher than average on the bad kid scale, she's the one who is horribly in the wrong, here. I judge people based on their treatment of animals, children, and customer service. If she treats a child like this, she is not a good person.
I know someone who was brought up by not-birth-parents, and I just want to echo everyone else in here who says that this will cause lasting problems.
If you step up and defend your child now, it will be a powerful, correct thing to do. Even if you don't leave this woman, she should essentially have no power over him other than self-protective. Taking away a child's favorite stuffed animal is not "akin" to emotional abuse--it is absolutely abusive, or it shows a lack of sensitivity on this woman's part that verges on mental illness.
posted by hought20 at 9:07 AM on December 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
I know someone who was brought up by not-birth-parents, and I just want to echo everyone else in here who says that this will cause lasting problems.
If you step up and defend your child now, it will be a powerful, correct thing to do. Even if you don't leave this woman, she should essentially have no power over him other than self-protective. Taking away a child's favorite stuffed animal is not "akin" to emotional abuse--it is absolutely abusive, or it shows a lack of sensitivity on this woman's part that verges on mental illness.
posted by hought20 at 9:07 AM on December 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
P. S. Your ex was probably protecting her damned kid.
posted by hought20 at 9:09 AM on December 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by hought20 at 9:09 AM on December 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
Stand up for your kid here. First and foremost.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:13 AM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Ironmouth at 9:13 AM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
I bet you're feeling pretty defensive by now.
I just want to say that this doesn't need to be about GF being a bad person or abusive. It doesn't mean she's evil or wants to hurt your son. But it doesn't sound like this is working. It's not working. And that means something needs to change.
posted by bq at 9:19 AM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
I just want to say that this doesn't need to be about GF being a bad person or abusive. It doesn't mean she's evil or wants to hurt your son. But it doesn't sound like this is working. It's not working. And that means something needs to change.
posted by bq at 9:19 AM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
My mother had borderline personality disorder and was exceptionally abusive while I was growing up.
I have no problem telling you that this woman is abusing your kid. With your permission.
My mom got away with it, too, for the most part by claiming I was a "trouble child."
Memail if you want to know more.
This can't be fixed. Your GF is an abuser. No amount of talking or therapy will change this, IMHO. She'll give you lipservice, try therapy, etc, etc, but deep down inside she is broken in a way that tells her it is OK to vilify, bully, and outright emotionally abuse an 8 year old child.
RUN.
posted by jbenben at 9:48 AM on December 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
I have no problem telling you that this woman is abusing your kid. With your permission.
My mom got away with it, too, for the most part by claiming I was a "trouble child."
Memail if you want to know more.
This can't be fixed. Your GF is an abuser. No amount of talking or therapy will change this, IMHO. She'll give you lipservice, try therapy, etc, etc, but deep down inside she is broken in a way that tells her it is OK to vilify, bully, and outright emotionally abuse an 8 year old child.
RUN.
posted by jbenben at 9:48 AM on December 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
I wouldn't go so far as to say that it can't be fixed. But I will say that it probably won't get fixed unless you and she both try to fix it.
posted by KathrynT at 9:54 AM on December 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 9:54 AM on December 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
If it really is BPD, then that is really hard to deal with, IMO; and you need to know ASAP.
You should check out some of the self-help resources. It's been discussed on AskMe before.
At least be familiar with it so you can rule it out if necessary.
posted by carter at 9:59 AM on December 19, 2011
You should check out some of the self-help resources. It's been discussed on AskMe before.
At least be familiar with it so you can rule it out if necessary.
posted by carter at 9:59 AM on December 19, 2011
(I'm avoiding the pileon except to say that I've been in your son's shoes and it's not a nice place to be.)
A lot of what is happening seems to be happening while you're not there, and I'm wondering if setting up a video camera might be useful. Don't be secretive about it because that'd be a jerk move, but tell everyone you're hearing two different stories and you want to make sure you have the right one. Everyone will be on their best behavior for 2 days then forget about it if you just leave it, and then you'll be able to see what's really happening if your son says your girlfriend is being mean, or your girlfriend says your son's giving her the evil eye.
posted by tchemgrrl at 10:05 AM on December 19, 2011
A lot of what is happening seems to be happening while you're not there, and I'm wondering if setting up a video camera might be useful. Don't be secretive about it because that'd be a jerk move, but tell everyone you're hearing two different stories and you want to make sure you have the right one. Everyone will be on their best behavior for 2 days then forget about it if you just leave it, and then you'll be able to see what's really happening if your son says your girlfriend is being mean, or your girlfriend says your son's giving her the evil eye.
posted by tchemgrrl at 10:05 AM on December 19, 2011
My father's second wife was awful to me, and when I tried to tell him about things that happened he said I was lying. She continually set him up to choose between us, and he consistently chose her. When I was 16, I decided that the only way to protect myself was to cease interacting with my father; 11 years later I'm happy with that decision.
But you have time to repair your relationship with your son, and there's great advice above.
posted by ecsh at 10:23 AM on December 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
But you have time to repair your relationship with your son, and there's great advice above.
posted by ecsh at 10:23 AM on December 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
it is troubling me greatly to hear her say this stuff and my natural inclination is to defend my child.
Go with that natural inclination.
I am reading your post a little differently from other people. I think that you are feeling obligated, on some level, to act counter to your innate tendency to side with, protect and defend your child.
You are under no obligation to suppress that instinct. That instinct is good. That instinct is right. That instinct is one of the best and finest and essential of human instincts.
I don't even know what the hell that means, and when she says stuff like that it makes me really wonder what else is going on in her brain to make her think that.
. . .
So it is sort of like my girlfriends paranoia became a self fulfilling prophecy.
I think you see it. I think you see that your girlfriend is the problem here, not your son. I think the reason you got such a pile-on is BECAUSE you see it, and it’s everywhere in your post – that your son is a good kid, and that you’ve no evidence of any real problems in his behavior, and that your girlfriend can’t give specific examples of his bad behavior.
I think you’re actually craving permission to stand up for your son. I think you’ve been struggling so much with boundaries and divorce and blended families and providing structured discipline for children and etc and etc that you have lost sight of the big picture here.
It’s okay to stand up for him. It’s okay to tell her to never, ever call your son names ever again. It’s okay to retract her right to discipline him without consulting you. It’s okay to let her know that treating this eight-year-old in her care with respect and kindness is non-negotiable in your relationship.
It’s okay. Go ahead.
I’d also ask you a question: if your ex’s boyfriend were behaving to your son the way your girlfriend is, how would you take it? How would you talk to your son about it?
posted by endless_forms at 10:23 AM on December 19, 2011 [41 favorites]
Go with that natural inclination.
I am reading your post a little differently from other people. I think that you are feeling obligated, on some level, to act counter to your innate tendency to side with, protect and defend your child.
You are under no obligation to suppress that instinct. That instinct is good. That instinct is right. That instinct is one of the best and finest and essential of human instincts.
I don't even know what the hell that means, and when she says stuff like that it makes me really wonder what else is going on in her brain to make her think that.
. . .
So it is sort of like my girlfriends paranoia became a self fulfilling prophecy.
I think you see it. I think you see that your girlfriend is the problem here, not your son. I think the reason you got such a pile-on is BECAUSE you see it, and it’s everywhere in your post – that your son is a good kid, and that you’ve no evidence of any real problems in his behavior, and that your girlfriend can’t give specific examples of his bad behavior.
I think you’re actually craving permission to stand up for your son. I think you’ve been struggling so much with boundaries and divorce and blended families and providing structured discipline for children and etc and etc that you have lost sight of the big picture here.
It’s okay to stand up for him. It’s okay to tell her to never, ever call your son names ever again. It’s okay to retract her right to discipline him without consulting you. It’s okay to let her know that treating this eight-year-old in her care with respect and kindness is non-negotiable in your relationship.
It’s okay. Go ahead.
I’d also ask you a question: if your ex’s boyfriend were behaving to your son the way your girlfriend is, how would you take it? How would you talk to your son about it?
posted by endless_forms at 10:23 AM on December 19, 2011 [41 favorites]
Not saying it's BDP!
I'm saying it is very unusual for people who think it's acceptable to abuse small children to change their perspective because that's a toxic belief in a deep deep place. It's complicated, but in a lot of ways, the OP's measured approach is enabling the GF to feel justified. She successfully paints herself the victim of an eight old over and over again. There's no way this can be fixed in time for the OP's young son to be safe.
This is serious emotional abuse, not a discipline issue. I really really do know the difference first hand. I prayed daily to be like other kids that I knew whose parents didn't call them names or blow little mistakes out of proportion into big disruptive dramas.
OP, I don't think the clinical label matters so much as I think protecting your son is paramount.
Your even-handed approach is enabling your GF to emotionally abuse your kid. Why? Because she's not who you thought she was, she's not like you on the inside. Clearly.
I'm sure your GF is having a rough time, perhaps was abused herself as a child and told it was "discipline" or her fault for being a "Little Shit" or whatever. You can't really afford neither to care about the troubled childhood of an adult while she's abusing your minor child and getting away with it.
She's an adult vilifying an eight year old. She's got deep problems you can't solve with a conversation or a few sessions of talk therapy because she has a broken system of deep seeded beliefs that includes the caveat it's OK to be emotionally cruel to my BF's eight year old.
Please think about dumping this woman from your life. I'm not sure how it got to this point, but I'm sure there have been other flags, right? This type of thing doesn't usually happen in a vacuum.
Good luck to you.Protect your son.
posted by jbenben at 10:29 AM on December 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm saying it is very unusual for people who think it's acceptable to abuse small children to change their perspective because that's a toxic belief in a deep deep place. It's complicated, but in a lot of ways, the OP's measured approach is enabling the GF to feel justified. She successfully paints herself the victim of an eight old over and over again. There's no way this can be fixed in time for the OP's young son to be safe.
This is serious emotional abuse, not a discipline issue. I really really do know the difference first hand. I prayed daily to be like other kids that I knew whose parents didn't call them names or blow little mistakes out of proportion into big disruptive dramas.
OP, I don't think the clinical label matters so much as I think protecting your son is paramount.
Your even-handed approach is enabling your GF to emotionally abuse your kid. Why? Because she's not who you thought she was, she's not like you on the inside. Clearly.
I'm sure your GF is having a rough time, perhaps was abused herself as a child and told it was "discipline" or her fault for being a "Little Shit" or whatever. You can't really afford neither to care about the troubled childhood of an adult while she's abusing your minor child and getting away with it.
She's an adult vilifying an eight year old. She's got deep problems you can't solve with a conversation or a few sessions of talk therapy because she has a broken system of deep seeded beliefs that includes the caveat it's OK to be emotionally cruel to my BF's eight year old.
Please think about dumping this woman from your life. I'm not sure how it got to this point, but I'm sure there have been other flags, right? This type of thing doesn't usually happen in a vacuum.
Good luck to you.Protect your son.
posted by jbenben at 10:29 AM on December 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
Sending your kid to live with your ex permanently because your GF doesn't like him? Imagine if that had happened to you when you were 8.
And yet it would clearly be better for him than living with an adult who thinks he's "evil" and is often alone with him and has total control over him. How can you let an adult who believes your kid's evil live in the same house with him? How would you react if it was your ex's live-in BF/GF saying this stuff?
posted by Adventurer at 10:35 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
And yet it would clearly be better for him than living with an adult who thinks he's "evil" and is often alone with him and has total control over him. How can you let an adult who believes your kid's evil live in the same house with him? How would you react if it was your ex's live-in BF/GF saying this stuff?
posted by Adventurer at 10:35 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
Just give him a chance to talk to you privately. Let him know you care about how he is feeling, and that you are there to help him.
This, and make sure he knows you will never repeat any of it to your girlfriend. (And then, don't repeat ANY of it to your girlfriend.)
posted by small_ruminant at 10:36 AM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
This, and make sure he knows you will never repeat any of it to your girlfriend. (And then, don't repeat ANY of it to your girlfriend.)
posted by small_ruminant at 10:36 AM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
I think argonauta has it both times. My question is where are you in all this? Are you doing any of the parenting or are you leaving it up to everybody else? Why don't you know any details?
Defend your child. Be the parent. Communicate with your ex, with your child, and with this girlfriend and her ridiculous behavior. Make the time and take a hard look at your priorities.
posted by provoliminal at 10:39 AM on December 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
Defend your child. Be the parent. Communicate with your ex, with your child, and with this girlfriend and her ridiculous behavior. Make the time and take a hard look at your priorities.
posted by provoliminal at 10:39 AM on December 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
This, and make sure he knows you will never repeat any of it to your girlfriend. (And then, don't repeat ANY of it to your girlfriend.)
And please, please don't voice any doubts to him about what he tells you. Not that you sound like you would, but just in case the "what?? She would never do THAT, would she?!?" overcomes you, do not give in to that doubt in front of your son. Listen to him.
I too had a father who continually shushed me, and who said I must be doing something to "deserve" my mother's accusations of being "evil" (yeah, because straight-A students who are appreciated by all their teachers, looked up to as a role model by other students, appreciated by their friends AND their friends' parents are clearly "evil"...). He would also say, when I tried confiding in him about how over-the-top my mother had gotten, "how DARE you speak about your mother that way!!"
Don't do that. All these other posters who've mentioned no longer speaking to fathers like that? I'm one too.
Speaking to your son in private sounds like a great idea, as does setting clear boundaries with your girlfriend (if you want to give her a second chance). Nthing "be there for your son". It's immensely important for the both of you.
posted by fraula at 10:41 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
And please, please don't voice any doubts to him about what he tells you. Not that you sound like you would, but just in case the "what?? She would never do THAT, would she?!?" overcomes you, do not give in to that doubt in front of your son. Listen to him.
I too had a father who continually shushed me, and who said I must be doing something to "deserve" my mother's accusations of being "evil" (yeah, because straight-A students who are appreciated by all their teachers, looked up to as a role model by other students, appreciated by their friends AND their friends' parents are clearly "evil"...). He would also say, when I tried confiding in him about how over-the-top my mother had gotten, "how DARE you speak about your mother that way!!"
Don't do that. All these other posters who've mentioned no longer speaking to fathers like that? I'm one too.
Speaking to your son in private sounds like a great idea, as does setting clear boundaries with your girlfriend (if you want to give her a second chance). Nthing "be there for your son". It's immensely important for the both of you.
posted by fraula at 10:41 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
Please, please, please, choose and protect your child. One of my parents told me, point-blank, that they would always choose their partner over their children, always, because they had to "take care of" themself first. I will never forget that, and while as an adult I understand where they were coming from at the time, it is still a hurt and a point of distrust in my relationship with that parent.
In the short term, do not put your GF in the position of being able to discipline your child in any way. This means that you supervise his homework, you make sure his chores are done, whatever. This will be more work for you - you'll have to function like GF isn't there, that you have to provide all child care and supervision for your son, because you will. Fix the situation NOW, and then move on to longer-term solutions (therapy, parenting coach for the blended family). But protect your kid NOW.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 11:05 AM on December 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
In the short term, do not put your GF in the position of being able to discipline your child in any way. This means that you supervise his homework, you make sure his chores are done, whatever. This will be more work for you - you'll have to function like GF isn't there, that you have to provide all child care and supervision for your son, because you will. Fix the situation NOW, and then move on to longer-term solutions (therapy, parenting coach for the blended family). But protect your kid NOW.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 11:05 AM on December 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
I remembered when I was younger, I met a very nice man. He was divorced and had two sons from each of the two marriages. His boys were wonderful to me, but I never lived with him. One of the ex-wife was kind, the other was terrible, but the kids were really sweet with me. I never had any trouble with them, but I have to say that I was nothing but kind to his children. I never raised my voice or said anything negative to them. I gave them encouragement in any way that I can. I think because I was nice to them, they could not help but be nice to me.
Children can only react emotionally because they don't know any other way to be. If she is mean, then he is mean. If she is disrespectful to him, then he is disrespectful to her. Sure, there are times when they are just miserable cusses, but we all have our moods.
It is not acceptable for your girlfriend to say such unkind things to or about your child. Your job is to protect your child. If he feels that you are not protecting him from her, he will lash out against her even more because he will do what he must to protect himself.
If you think that you want to continue a relationship with your girlfriend, maybe you should think about how you can spend time with your son without her around. It really isn't your son's fault that he is an eight year old who needs the attention of his father. Think about your role as a father first before being the boyfriend. Your relationship with your son is lifelong-yours or his, your relationship with your girlfriend may or may not be.
Has your girlfriend ever sat down and explained that she is not trying to replace his mother? Does she even understand how your son feels? She is the adult. She has a lifetime of experience that he does not. If she can't learn to have some patience, then she shouldn't have the privilege to be around your son. I would like to reiterate that her time with your son is a privilege.
posted by Yellow at 11:08 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
Children can only react emotionally because they don't know any other way to be. If she is mean, then he is mean. If she is disrespectful to him, then he is disrespectful to her. Sure, there are times when they are just miserable cusses, but we all have our moods.
It is not acceptable for your girlfriend to say such unkind things to or about your child. Your job is to protect your child. If he feels that you are not protecting him from her, he will lash out against her even more because he will do what he must to protect himself.
If you think that you want to continue a relationship with your girlfriend, maybe you should think about how you can spend time with your son without her around. It really isn't your son's fault that he is an eight year old who needs the attention of his father. Think about your role as a father first before being the boyfriend. Your relationship with your son is lifelong-yours or his, your relationship with your girlfriend may or may not be.
Has your girlfriend ever sat down and explained that she is not trying to replace his mother? Does she even understand how your son feels? She is the adult. She has a lifetime of experience that he does not. If she can't learn to have some patience, then she shouldn't have the privilege to be around your son. I would like to reiterate that her time with your son is a privilege.
posted by Yellow at 11:08 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
My girlfriend has recently been escalating the negative things she says about my child to me. Things like he's "devil spawn" or "evil." Telling me how mean he is, calling him a "little shit."
I get upset when my SO talks that way about my cats.
My mom remarried while my younger sister was still living at home. My stepfather was extremely unkind in the ways he talked about my sister to her and to me, but that was nothing compared to what happened when it was just the two of them. In situations like this, you have to assume that when you're not around, your girlfriend is venting her feelings toward your son in an inappropriate (and harmful) way. Start from there and figure out what to do.
As others have said, he's a kid. Fixing this isn't his responsibility.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 11:12 AM on December 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
I get upset when my SO talks that way about my cats.
My mom remarried while my younger sister was still living at home. My stepfather was extremely unkind in the ways he talked about my sister to her and to me, but that was nothing compared to what happened when it was just the two of them. In situations like this, you have to assume that when you're not around, your girlfriend is venting her feelings toward your son in an inappropriate (and harmful) way. Start from there and figure out what to do.
As others have said, he's a kid. Fixing this isn't his responsibility.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 11:12 AM on December 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
If I were you, I'd be so tempted to set up a hidden video camera to see what's going on while you're not there. Just to see what she does when you're not around.
posted by lizbunny at 11:21 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by lizbunny at 11:21 AM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
I was favouriting, but had to stop.
After years of enduring the partners my parents put me through, I can say I'm an expert on the kid's side of this. And it really doesn't matter if he's backtalking her or whatever. He's 8. He's a small child. It's going to take him some time to fully absorb the parameters and expectations that come with increased age, and it's not going to happen if he's in an unsupportive, capricious, mean environment. In fact, this increases the odds of more extreme rebellion or, worse, loss of spirit and self-esteem.
She's being unspeakably cruel to him. She's holding him to a higher standard than she's holding her own child. She's getting permission from you to increase the unreasonableness of her response (whether you realise it or not, by not putting an immediate, serious stop to the name-calling, you essentially approved of her thinking/feeling/saying these awful things about your baby). She took the item he considers his most secure point on the Earth outside of the arms of his parents, and it was okay with you. As a parent, she should have understood that the lovey is not ever to be included in any gesture of punishment.
If I were his mother, I would have bristled at reports of her behaviour, as well. Admittedly, I would have then called the other parties together for a frank discussion on appropriate discipline boundaries and attitudes towards childhood development in general. But I can see her reaction for what it is: a desire to protect him. Which is a reaction I think you are feeling but somehow talking yourself out of because you feel strangely beholden to her point of view.
Listen. That's your kid right there. You are a huge part of what he considers his everything. You are his protection from the evils of this world. You are there to help him learn lessons appropriately and lovingly. You are his father. She is on some weird trip (yes, she is) and needs to work that out...but not on your son. At minimum, I would recommend family counseling. But, really, I would consider the sum of her behaviours to be the ne plus ultra of the "if they're mean to the waiter, leave" school of choosing partners and send her packing. Because that's no waiter - he's your son. And she's being nasty.
Yes, his behaviour is normal. No, her behaviour is not.
Over time, with patience and reiteration, your son will learn how to be a well-functioning cog in the household machine. Right now, he's 8 and in the midst of a huge dynamic shift. Expecting him to toe the overly precise line she's drawing in the sand right now is unreasonable and cruel. He'll get there, and it'll be both faster and more genuine with kindness, understanding, and firmness rather than hatefulness.
If I were you...well, I'd send her on her way. But, if you're against that, I'd at least take each of them aside and explain that the way things were being done previously isn't how they are going to be done going forward. I would resume the mantle of sole executor of discipline for your son until she has shown marked improvement. I would encourage him to be open with you about her behaviour when you're not around (I can not be more serious about this part: you don't know how she's behaving when you're not around, and you have no way of knowing what he's compartmentalising, translating as "normal", or just not discussing, and only by opening a door of truth and trust with him will you ever be able to guarantee his healthy development) without demonising her (that needs to stop on all sides immediately).
If she wants to complain about him, she has to quit using such hateful language (I can't even believe you allowed her to go on about your little guy like that! it amazes me when parents allow this!) and must produce concrete examples. There is no way for him to learn without measurable, identifiable parameters, so you must insist upon them for him.
I would contact his mother and explain that you are putting a stop to the madness and need her to communicate with you about your son's impressions of what's going on (and that's what they are - impressions, because he's 8 and needs to be given latitude for not understanding context or being able to interpret some levels of demand) rather than giving him instructions that could become counterproductive for the effort. Ask her to encourage him to be open and honest with you about what's happening. Invite her to do the same. You need to become the clearinghouse for all the avenues of experience and perception he is traversing with your girlfriend.
Family counseling. Soon. Your little guy might need some one-on-one opportunities for talk with a professional, too, because a lot has been heaped on his little shoulders already, and he may already be struggling with how to bear that burden.
I'm glad you were brave enough to ask. I know it must suck being torn in so many different directions. I get the feeling you are wanting to protect your son but not sure how much power you should give a youngster over adult lives, and I hope you can read the words here - especially the very upset ones - as encouragement to stand up for him and see where the adults aren't giving him the loving foundation and mature response he most needs.
There are so many of us out here who were let down by the most powerful people in our Universe, the people we looked up to the most, and it has marked us forever. That's what the very upset people here are hoping you will save your son from. We want to see you be the hero we didn't have in our versions of this sad story. I don't think you're going to let it get any sadder. I think you're going to be the father he needs and deserves.
posted by batmonkey at 11:28 AM on December 19, 2011 [25 favorites]
After years of enduring the partners my parents put me through, I can say I'm an expert on the kid's side of this. And it really doesn't matter if he's backtalking her or whatever. He's 8. He's a small child. It's going to take him some time to fully absorb the parameters and expectations that come with increased age, and it's not going to happen if he's in an unsupportive, capricious, mean environment. In fact, this increases the odds of more extreme rebellion or, worse, loss of spirit and self-esteem.
She's being unspeakably cruel to him. She's holding him to a higher standard than she's holding her own child. She's getting permission from you to increase the unreasonableness of her response (whether you realise it or not, by not putting an immediate, serious stop to the name-calling, you essentially approved of her thinking/feeling/saying these awful things about your baby). She took the item he considers his most secure point on the Earth outside of the arms of his parents, and it was okay with you. As a parent, she should have understood that the lovey is not ever to be included in any gesture of punishment.
If I were his mother, I would have bristled at reports of her behaviour, as well. Admittedly, I would have then called the other parties together for a frank discussion on appropriate discipline boundaries and attitudes towards childhood development in general. But I can see her reaction for what it is: a desire to protect him. Which is a reaction I think you are feeling but somehow talking yourself out of because you feel strangely beholden to her point of view.
Listen. That's your kid right there. You are a huge part of what he considers his everything. You are his protection from the evils of this world. You are there to help him learn lessons appropriately and lovingly. You are his father. She is on some weird trip (yes, she is) and needs to work that out...but not on your son. At minimum, I would recommend family counseling. But, really, I would consider the sum of her behaviours to be the ne plus ultra of the "if they're mean to the waiter, leave" school of choosing partners and send her packing. Because that's no waiter - he's your son. And she's being nasty.
Yes, his behaviour is normal. No, her behaviour is not.
Over time, with patience and reiteration, your son will learn how to be a well-functioning cog in the household machine. Right now, he's 8 and in the midst of a huge dynamic shift. Expecting him to toe the overly precise line she's drawing in the sand right now is unreasonable and cruel. He'll get there, and it'll be both faster and more genuine with kindness, understanding, and firmness rather than hatefulness.
If I were you...well, I'd send her on her way. But, if you're against that, I'd at least take each of them aside and explain that the way things were being done previously isn't how they are going to be done going forward. I would resume the mantle of sole executor of discipline for your son until she has shown marked improvement. I would encourage him to be open with you about her behaviour when you're not around (I can not be more serious about this part: you don't know how she's behaving when you're not around, and you have no way of knowing what he's compartmentalising, translating as "normal", or just not discussing, and only by opening a door of truth and trust with him will you ever be able to guarantee his healthy development) without demonising her (that needs to stop on all sides immediately).
If she wants to complain about him, she has to quit using such hateful language (I can't even believe you allowed her to go on about your little guy like that! it amazes me when parents allow this!) and must produce concrete examples. There is no way for him to learn without measurable, identifiable parameters, so you must insist upon them for him.
I would contact his mother and explain that you are putting a stop to the madness and need her to communicate with you about your son's impressions of what's going on (and that's what they are - impressions, because he's 8 and needs to be given latitude for not understanding context or being able to interpret some levels of demand) rather than giving him instructions that could become counterproductive for the effort. Ask her to encourage him to be open and honest with you about what's happening. Invite her to do the same. You need to become the clearinghouse for all the avenues of experience and perception he is traversing with your girlfriend.
Family counseling. Soon. Your little guy might need some one-on-one opportunities for talk with a professional, too, because a lot has been heaped on his little shoulders already, and he may already be struggling with how to bear that burden.
I'm glad you were brave enough to ask. I know it must suck being torn in so many different directions. I get the feeling you are wanting to protect your son but not sure how much power you should give a youngster over adult lives, and I hope you can read the words here - especially the very upset ones - as encouragement to stand up for him and see where the adults aren't giving him the loving foundation and mature response he most needs.
There are so many of us out here who were let down by the most powerful people in our Universe, the people we looked up to the most, and it has marked us forever. That's what the very upset people here are hoping you will save your son from. We want to see you be the hero we didn't have in our versions of this sad story. I don't think you're going to let it get any sadder. I think you're going to be the father he needs and deserves.
posted by batmonkey at 11:28 AM on December 19, 2011 [25 favorites]
Wow. I'm so sad for your son. I'm a stepmother myself and I think your GF is completely in the wrong even if she's reporting your son's behavior completely accurately (which I doubt). I wonder how she would feel if you treated her son the way she treats yours. Is she firm but loving with her own child or does she treat him the same way she treats yours? I'm getting the impression that she's harsher with your son than with her own; please come back and correct me if I'm wrong.
I came into the picture when my 3 stepchildren were teenagers, so our situations are a little different; regardless, I loved all 3 kids right away because I love their dad and they're of him. In my experience, it's pretty easy to behave lovingly toward kids -- even if they're doing something you disagree with or don't appreciate or whatever and you have to be firm with them -- as long as you actually love them. From your description, it sounds like she doesn't, I'm sorry to say, and I wonder how much she really loves you if she's calling your kid "devil's spawn," etc. Doesn't she care how that makes you feel?
Please, like everyone else is saying, take steps to protect your son from your GF's behavior. I think it will come down to your GF either shaping up or shipping out. In your situation, I think I'd take one shot at letting the GF shape up, but then that would be it. The first step for me would be tell her that if my child misbehaves, she is to gently correct him once and then if that's not enough, tell him that she will be talking to you when you get home about what the appropriate punishment is. Jesus H. Christ.
For what it's worth, your son doesn't sound like a bad kid. He sounds like a good kid who is being treated terribly. I'm so sorry he's in this situation.
posted by Maisie at 11:51 AM on December 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
I came into the picture when my 3 stepchildren were teenagers, so our situations are a little different; regardless, I loved all 3 kids right away because I love their dad and they're of him. In my experience, it's pretty easy to behave lovingly toward kids -- even if they're doing something you disagree with or don't appreciate or whatever and you have to be firm with them -- as long as you actually love them. From your description, it sounds like she doesn't, I'm sorry to say, and I wonder how much she really loves you if she's calling your kid "devil's spawn," etc. Doesn't she care how that makes you feel?
Please, like everyone else is saying, take steps to protect your son from your GF's behavior. I think it will come down to your GF either shaping up or shipping out. In your situation, I think I'd take one shot at letting the GF shape up, but then that would be it. The first step for me would be tell her that if my child misbehaves, she is to gently correct him once and then if that's not enough, tell him that she will be talking to you when you get home about what the appropriate punishment is. Jesus H. Christ.
For what it's worth, your son doesn't sound like a bad kid. He sounds like a good kid who is being treated terribly. I'm so sorry he's in this situation.
posted by Maisie at 11:51 AM on December 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
Your gf acknowledges and you found out that your ex is indeed telling the child to disrespect your gf, and yet she continues to blame an 8 year old child, thinking of him as "evil" and "devil spawn". That's not acceptable. It's demeaning and also kind of batshit to think of a child that way. He's a child. Taking the misbehavior of a child so personally is weird. Kids don't misbehave because they are amoral, and they usually don't do it just because they hate someone either. They do it for a myriad of reasons, but those aren't included.
Also, she can tell he hates her because he "gives her the evil eye"? What? Your girlfriend sounds kind of immature. He's 8. Why does she care how he looks at her? Maybe he does dislike her, if his mother is telling him falsehoods, or if he associates her with the breakup of his parents, or maybe he's picking up on the fact that she clearly doesn't like him. The difference is that he's 8, not really capable yet of entirely rational thought, whereas your gf is presumably an adult who can decide that just because an 8 year old doesn't like her, she could just ignore it, or handle it in a way that does not include calling him names.
posted by katyggls at 12:11 PM on December 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
Also, she can tell he hates her because he "gives her the evil eye"? What? Your girlfriend sounds kind of immature. He's 8. Why does she care how he looks at her? Maybe he does dislike her, if his mother is telling him falsehoods, or if he associates her with the breakup of his parents, or maybe he's picking up on the fact that she clearly doesn't like him. The difference is that he's 8, not really capable yet of entirely rational thought, whereas your gf is presumably an adult who can decide that just because an 8 year old doesn't like her, she could just ignore it, or handle it in a way that does not include calling him names.
posted by katyggls at 12:11 PM on December 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
Also, she can tell he hates her because he "gives her the evil eye"? What? Your girlfriend sounds kind of immature.
Even worse than immature, this is incredibly controlling and verging on emotional abuse. Not only does she think the kid should behave *perfectly*, but she also thinks that she has the right to control his facial expressions and his feelings. That's way, way overboard.
posted by yarly at 12:30 PM on December 19, 2011 [10 favorites]
Even worse than immature, this is incredibly controlling and verging on emotional abuse. Not only does she think the kid should behave *perfectly*, but she also thinks that she has the right to control his facial expressions and his feelings. That's way, way overboard.
posted by yarly at 12:30 PM on December 19, 2011 [10 favorites]
[also, I feel it is time to point out an AskMe maxim: in the rare event that you get 100% agreement from AskMe, like you are here, you can be pretty sure that we're right.]
posted by yarly at 12:31 PM on December 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by yarly at 12:31 PM on December 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
Also, she can tell he hates her because he "gives her the evil eye"? What? Your girlfriend sounds kind of immature. He's 8.
Only mentioning it because I haven't seen anyone mention it, but is it possible your girlfriend is experiencing some sort of psychotic break? Because that doesn't sound immature to me. That sounds delusional.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:35 PM on December 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
Only mentioning it because I haven't seen anyone mention it, but is it possible your girlfriend is experiencing some sort of psychotic break? Because that doesn't sound immature to me. That sounds delusional.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:35 PM on December 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
Also, she can tell he hates her because he "gives her the evil eye"? What? Your girlfriend sounds kind of immature. He's 8.
Only mentioning it because I haven't seen anyone mention it, but is it possible your girlfriend is experiencing some sort of psychotic break? Because that doesn't sound immature to me. That sounds delusional.
I'm not defending the gf at all (see my comment above), but I think people are over-reading the phrase "evil eye." I interpreted it to just mean "stink eye," and I suspect that's the way the OP intended it.
posted by Ragged Richard at 12:38 PM on December 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
Only mentioning it because I haven't seen anyone mention it, but is it possible your girlfriend is experiencing some sort of psychotic break? Because that doesn't sound immature to me. That sounds delusional.
I'm not defending the gf at all (see my comment above), but I think people are over-reading the phrase "evil eye." I interpreted it to just mean "stink eye," and I suspect that's the way the OP intended it.
posted by Ragged Richard at 12:38 PM on December 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
Calling an eight year old boy "the devil's spawn" and "evil" is different than saying a kid is giving you the stink eye.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:47 PM on December 19, 2011
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:47 PM on December 19, 2011
PhoBWan: I absolutely agree. And I wasn't just responding to your comment. But it seemed to me that a lot of people were reading the post as though the GF was accusing the son of giving her the actual "Evil Eye," and I think she's just accusing him of glaring at her. Anyway, I don't want to cause a derail - this is a small detail, and I'm in agreement with the consensus that, whatever she means by that phrase, the GF's behavior is appalling.
posted by Ragged Richard at 12:58 PM on December 19, 2011
posted by Ragged Richard at 12:58 PM on December 19, 2011
No, I think everyone here understands that the "evil eye" means the "stink eye" meaning a "mean glare"
posted by shoesietart at 1:51 PM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by shoesietart at 1:51 PM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
"My girlfriend has recently been escalating the negative things she says about my child to me. Things like he's "devil spawn" or "evil.""
Unless your son's teachers and the school administration tell you he is disruptive, violent, and a problem child, and a professional psychiatrist diagnoses him with severe psychological disorders, the fact of the matter is that your girlfriend is a fucking nutcase and you need to take your son and get the fuck out ASAP, today. Christmas in a hotel room is better than one more day where he is abused by this woman while you stand by and let it happen. Get out now. Now.
posted by a_girl_irl at 2:08 PM on December 19, 2011 [11 favorites]
Unless your son's teachers and the school administration tell you he is disruptive, violent, and a problem child, and a professional psychiatrist diagnoses him with severe psychological disorders, the fact of the matter is that your girlfriend is a fucking nutcase and you need to take your son and get the fuck out ASAP, today. Christmas in a hotel room is better than one more day where he is abused by this woman while you stand by and let it happen. Get out now. Now.
posted by a_girl_irl at 2:08 PM on December 19, 2011 [11 favorites]
Your girlfriend has no intention of ever being a parent to your child
Whatever her motives or precise behavior, if this is true, she should not be step-parenting your kid. And your description presents a compelling case for the above assumption. She has no business expecting your son to obey her like a parent while she treats him like an annoyance she'd prefer to be rid of.
She has a long way to go in terms of understanding and enthusiastically embracing the role of stepmom before you should even consider trying to "get [your kid] to do what she says."
And I don't think your ex is undermining their relationship nearly as much as your girlfriend is. I can easily imagine a kid tearfully telling his mom about Stepmom taking away his stuffed animal, Mom gets upset over the spiteful punishment and says something about how Stepmom doesn't get to do that sort of thing, and the kid hears that as "you don't have to obey her." Should Mom have called you directly? Yes, but that's not the primary problem you need to solve.
posted by Meg_Murry at 3:27 PM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Whatever her motives or precise behavior, if this is true, she should not be step-parenting your kid. And your description presents a compelling case for the above assumption. She has no business expecting your son to obey her like a parent while she treats him like an annoyance she'd prefer to be rid of.
She has a long way to go in terms of understanding and enthusiastically embracing the role of stepmom before you should even consider trying to "get [your kid] to do what she says."
And I don't think your ex is undermining their relationship nearly as much as your girlfriend is. I can easily imagine a kid tearfully telling his mom about Stepmom taking away his stuffed animal, Mom gets upset over the spiteful punishment and says something about how Stepmom doesn't get to do that sort of thing, and the kid hears that as "you don't have to obey her." Should Mom have called you directly? Yes, but that's not the primary problem you need to solve.
posted by Meg_Murry at 3:27 PM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
As the child of several consecutive EVIL step-fathers, I have very little to add. Actually, no, *everything* I had to say has already been said.
That being said, I'd like to express my thanks for everyone who has responded, especially those with stories like mine, and your son's. I feel a little less alone, even though for a very sad reason.
posted by MuChao at 4:16 PM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
That being said, I'd like to express my thanks for everyone who has responded, especially those with stories like mine, and your son's. I feel a little less alone, even though for a very sad reason.
posted by MuChao at 4:16 PM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
Couldn't agree more with others, esp. a_girl_irl. What she said, in bold 72. You spent 8 years raising this kid and some outsider calls him a 'little shit' and causes angst between you? I and plenty of other parents I know would absolutely dominate anyone who did that. Stop reading. Go to the bedroom. Start packing her stuff up. Next time round, make a smarter choice and lay down some rules first. This may sound trivial, but if someone took away my toddler's stuffed bunny that he has slept with every night almost all his life, I would make them very, very unhappy indeed.
posted by tra at 4:33 PM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by tra at 4:33 PM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Has it occurred to anybody else here that the gist of the advice coming from people who had incompetent step-parents seems to be that there is no difference between behavior and person?
It seems to me that punishing this woman by telling her she's awful and breaking up her relationship is motivated by pretty much exactly the same instinct for retribution as the removal of a child's teddy bear, and likely to be pretty much exactly as ineffective, for pretty much exactly the same reasons.
What needs to happen here is behavioral change. GF's behavior to this point has been unhelpful and quite likely damaging; that needs to change. She's an adult. She can learn new parenting skills. Unless and until she flat refuses to do so, it's completely unfair to call her an awful person or insist that she must be dumped. What kind of message does that attitude teach kids?
People who do things badly are far more often incompetent than awful, and competence can be acquired. Your kid needs to understand that, and so do all the people piling on your girlfriend. It's a great pity that so many apparently never had the opportunity to learn it while growing up.
posted by flabdablet at 5:34 PM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
It seems to me that punishing this woman by telling her she's awful and breaking up her relationship is motivated by pretty much exactly the same instinct for retribution as the removal of a child's teddy bear, and likely to be pretty much exactly as ineffective, for pretty much exactly the same reasons.
What needs to happen here is behavioral change. GF's behavior to this point has been unhelpful and quite likely damaging; that needs to change. She's an adult. She can learn new parenting skills. Unless and until she flat refuses to do so, it's completely unfair to call her an awful person or insist that she must be dumped. What kind of message does that attitude teach kids?
People who do things badly are far more often incompetent than awful, and competence can be acquired. Your kid needs to understand that, and so do all the people piling on your girlfriend. It's a great pity that so many apparently never had the opportunity to learn it while growing up.
posted by flabdablet at 5:34 PM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
This woman has no business parenting your child.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:39 PM on December 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:39 PM on December 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
If she's willing to say things like that to you, I would be wondering what she's saying to him when you're not around.
So would I.
But I would not automatically be assuming that she's actually abusive to the kid. Hell, I've said things to my partner about my kids that I would never in a pink fit say to their dear little faces. It's a very rare parent who has never had the experience of loving and hating a child simultaneously after a particularly skilled episode of button-pushing.
If an intimate relationship is not a safe space within which to have a bit of a whinge and a vent when the pressure is on, what the hell is?
posted by flabdablet at 6:06 PM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
So would I.
But I would not automatically be assuming that she's actually abusive to the kid. Hell, I've said things to my partner about my kids that I would never in a pink fit say to their dear little faces. It's a very rare parent who has never had the experience of loving and hating a child simultaneously after a particularly skilled episode of button-pushing.
If an intimate relationship is not a safe space within which to have a bit of a whinge and a vent when the pressure is on, what the hell is?
posted by flabdablet at 6:06 PM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
I was so disturbed by reading this earlier that I didn't want to comment, but I've been thinking about it all day. In addition to what other posters have said, I think you should genuinely consider what kind of relationship you'd like to have with your son going forward. If you decide to keep this abusive and mentally unstable woman in your life, at the cost of your own son's happiness and mental health, that strikes me as astoundingly selfish and cowardly. I wouldn't be surprised if he cut you out of his life completely as soon as he's old enough to do so.
posted by crackingdes at 6:10 PM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by crackingdes at 6:10 PM on December 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
It seems to me that punishing this woman by telling her she's awful and breaking up her relationship is motivated by pretty much exactly the same instinct for retribution as the removal of a child's teddy bear, and likely to be pretty much exactly as ineffective, for pretty much exactly the same reasons.
Not if the desired effect is to remove the child from the care of a person who hates him.
What needs to happen here is behavioral change. GF's behavior to this point has been unhelpful and quite likely damaging; that needs to change. She's an adult. She can learn new parenting skills. Unless and until she flat refuses to do so, it's completely unfair to call her an awful person or insist that she must be dumped.
We haven't heard that much about behavior. Here's what we've heard: "evil," "devil's spawn," "evil eye." This is not a skills issue. She has a 10-year-old already. It is fair to dump someone who has used three different ways to call your kid "evil," including directly calling him "evil." Nobody has the right to not be dumped by someone whose kids you hate. Hell, maintain the relationship if you want, just get her out of the house.
What kind of message does that attitude teach kids?
It teaches the 8-year-old that his dad loves him enough to not make him live with and be parented by somebody who hates him.
People who do things badly are far more often incompetent than awful, and competence can be acquired. Your kid needs to understand that, and so do all the people piling on your girlfriend. It's a great pity that so many apparently never had the opportunity to learn it while growing up.
She should know what a security blanket means to a kid; she has one. Still, that could perhaps be dismissed as incompetence if she liked or was indifferent to or was simply overwhelmed by him. Her language is disturbing. If she was smiling or making a dismissive face when she called the boy "evil," that's one thing, but to never say anything good about him, to give no indication of liking him, to complain incessantly about his behavior, and to repeatedly call him evil: we are very far into "if it walks like a duck" territory here. For most everyone else here, including the ones who make no mention of their family backgrounds, the question actually seems to be whether she hates him or has borderline personality disorder or perhaps even having a psychotic break of the type described by the young rope-rider.
Therapy is probably in order, but that kid is going to lose a lot of time -- like, years -- before she gets to the place she already needs to be.
posted by Adventurer at 6:28 PM on December 19, 2011 [17 favorites]
Not if the desired effect is to remove the child from the care of a person who hates him.
What needs to happen here is behavioral change. GF's behavior to this point has been unhelpful and quite likely damaging; that needs to change. She's an adult. She can learn new parenting skills. Unless and until she flat refuses to do so, it's completely unfair to call her an awful person or insist that she must be dumped.
We haven't heard that much about behavior. Here's what we've heard: "evil," "devil's spawn," "evil eye." This is not a skills issue. She has a 10-year-old already. It is fair to dump someone who has used three different ways to call your kid "evil," including directly calling him "evil." Nobody has the right to not be dumped by someone whose kids you hate. Hell, maintain the relationship if you want, just get her out of the house.
What kind of message does that attitude teach kids?
It teaches the 8-year-old that his dad loves him enough to not make him live with and be parented by somebody who hates him.
People who do things badly are far more often incompetent than awful, and competence can be acquired. Your kid needs to understand that, and so do all the people piling on your girlfriend. It's a great pity that so many apparently never had the opportunity to learn it while growing up.
She should know what a security blanket means to a kid; she has one. Still, that could perhaps be dismissed as incompetence if she liked or was indifferent to or was simply overwhelmed by him. Her language is disturbing. If she was smiling or making a dismissive face when she called the boy "evil," that's one thing, but to never say anything good about him, to give no indication of liking him, to complain incessantly about his behavior, and to repeatedly call him evil: we are very far into "if it walks like a duck" territory here. For most everyone else here, including the ones who make no mention of their family backgrounds, the question actually seems to be whether she hates him or has borderline personality disorder or perhaps even having a psychotic break of the type described by the young rope-rider.
Therapy is probably in order, but that kid is going to lose a lot of time -- like, years -- before she gets to the place she already needs to be.
posted by Adventurer at 6:28 PM on December 19, 2011 [17 favorites]
I agree she's attempting to manipulate your affection by constructing a divide between herself and your son. I watched this happen when my father remarried. Everything was fine with my step-mother until she moved into our house. Although my sister and I had left home years before, my two brothers were left at home with her. They almost went crazy with the games and demeaning antics she played with them. Manipulating my [also crazy] father to dominate them, punish them, control them in order to make her feel validated and centralised in his life. I can guarantee that she is being worse to your child when you are not around. The things she did to them were even worse when Dad wasn't around. [My. God. The stories that have come out over the years. You have no idea.]
She had raised four daughters and of course, in her world view, they were all angels. My SM harangued my father over all of us - we all were indefensibly terrible people. Any small decentering of herself from attention were signs that we didn't respect her, or didn't want her there. Her children aren't bad, but nothing special or immune from fault. My dad was exceptionally caring of them and would never have shown his new wife the disrespect she showed him in dissing her children. To his shame, he stood by my SM's verdict on us until the very last moments of that crappy, disgraceful marriage. That shit sticks and none of us really has a relationship with him to this day.
And um, Dad wasn't paying close attention. He was so rapt at having a regular sex life and a housekeeper, that he let her walk all over him. He left the responsibility of his children's care to the woman he brought into his home. I suspect this was part of her resentment - that she felt expected to run his home and childcare arrangements when originally, when they weren't living together, there was more romance and less taking for granted. And like any changes to our intimate spaces, shit gets activated. I reckon my SM got activated at having her former marriage patterns duplicated.
No excuses. My brothers stopped showing her ANY respect and as teenagers showed no remorse in calling her a controlling, dominating, ball-breaking, PITA to her face, and in front of my father. He tried the 'you will obey your SM, or else' and they laughed in his face and moved out of home, even though they were still teenagers. What's interesting is that as she went after my brothers, she acculturated my father to this same kind of disdain and disgust. Maybe you're getting that done to you too? You have to stand up to her, defend a clear boundary of how you will be spoken to, how your son will be treated and how your household will run [by running more of it yourself].
You sound like you really needed to read this thread because your passivity in the face of your girlfriend's escalating drama is concerning. I get the sense that you are not really present in your home as your child's primary child-carer, so I agree with those who suggest one on one parenting with your boy. And you need to stand up to your GF. Especially when the probable flow of events will be her threatening to walk out, creating drama and escalating things to giddy heights. DON'T CAPITULATE.
posted by honey-barbara at 7:48 PM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
She had raised four daughters and of course, in her world view, they were all angels. My SM harangued my father over all of us - we all were indefensibly terrible people. Any small decentering of herself from attention were signs that we didn't respect her, or didn't want her there. Her children aren't bad, but nothing special or immune from fault. My dad was exceptionally caring of them and would never have shown his new wife the disrespect she showed him in dissing her children. To his shame, he stood by my SM's verdict on us until the very last moments of that crappy, disgraceful marriage. That shit sticks and none of us really has a relationship with him to this day.
And um, Dad wasn't paying close attention. He was so rapt at having a regular sex life and a housekeeper, that he let her walk all over him. He left the responsibility of his children's care to the woman he brought into his home. I suspect this was part of her resentment - that she felt expected to run his home and childcare arrangements when originally, when they weren't living together, there was more romance and less taking for granted. And like any changes to our intimate spaces, shit gets activated. I reckon my SM got activated at having her former marriage patterns duplicated.
No excuses. My brothers stopped showing her ANY respect and as teenagers showed no remorse in calling her a controlling, dominating, ball-breaking, PITA to her face, and in front of my father. He tried the 'you will obey your SM, or else' and they laughed in his face and moved out of home, even though they were still teenagers. What's interesting is that as she went after my brothers, she acculturated my father to this same kind of disdain and disgust. Maybe you're getting that done to you too? You have to stand up to her, defend a clear boundary of how you will be spoken to, how your son will be treated and how your household will run [by running more of it yourself].
You sound like you really needed to read this thread because your passivity in the face of your girlfriend's escalating drama is concerning. I get the sense that you are not really present in your home as your child's primary child-carer, so I agree with those who suggest one on one parenting with your boy. And you need to stand up to your GF. Especially when the probable flow of events will be her threatening to walk out, creating drama and escalating things to giddy heights. DON'T CAPITULATE.
posted by honey-barbara at 7:48 PM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
People who do things badly are far more often incompetent than awful, and competence can be acquired. Your kid needs to understand that, and so do all the people piling on your girlfriend. It's a great pity that so many apparently never had the opportunity to learn it while growing up.
This isn't about competence. It's about the fact that, even if his kid was peeing on this woman's clothes, you react to an 8 year old child with compassion and not with resentment and hate and name-calling. This is about emotional reality, which is a very, very different thing than competence.
Emotional reality can change, just like competence can. However, changing the former takes years, when the latter can be changed pretty quickly, and it is not the OP's job to put up with this woman being terrible to his child while she works out her issues. If she'd even be willing to do so.
The reason that we're all reacting like this isn't because you're we are all so unfortunate and you're the only one who read this thread who learned about how competence can be acquired. It's about emotional truth and how that's manifesting in her behavior.
posted by hought20 at 8:07 PM on December 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
This isn't about competence. It's about the fact that, even if his kid was peeing on this woman's clothes, you react to an 8 year old child with compassion and not with resentment and hate and name-calling. This is about emotional reality, which is a very, very different thing than competence.
Emotional reality can change, just like competence can. However, changing the former takes years, when the latter can be changed pretty quickly, and it is not the OP's job to put up with this woman being terrible to his child while she works out her issues. If she'd even be willing to do so.
The reason that we're all reacting like this isn't because you're we are all so unfortunate and you're the only one who read this thread who learned about how competence can be acquired. It's about emotional truth and how that's manifesting in her behavior.
posted by hought20 at 8:07 PM on December 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
As I see this, the key information is
I have given my girlfriend the authority to discipline him as she see's fit, but she has only done so one time (and the results of that didn't turn out how she wanted).
I can easily imagine an initially hostile 8 year old boy interacting with a stepmother who doesn't know how to do effective, ongoing, consistent discipline in such a way as to make her completely lose her shit over the course of four months' cohabitation. Further, it seems pretty likely to me that this is in fact the dynamic at work here.
It's quite possible that the temperament of GF's own child is such that she has never felt the need to impose any kind of discipline before. Some kids are just compliant by nature.
And this is important too:
I have witnessed my child talk back to her, and not listen to her, have to be told more then once to do chores, etc. But no more then he does so to myself or to other adults. Also it seems to be about the same level her own child does the same things to her. To me, it seems like about the normal amount of non-compliance you would get from the typical 8 year old.
If GF's own child used to be more compliant than OP is currently seeing, it's quite possible that GF sees her own child's current levels of cheekiness as a direct result of living with OP's "evil" child. And without an effective, compassionate, consistently-applied discipline strategy in place, this would naturally lead GF to resent the hell out of him for that.
I see the emotional reality here as a consequence of a pattern of toxic interaction that's been allowed to build up in the absence of effective parental discipline, not something necessarily set in stone. I also have personal experience to back up the idea that when circumstances change, emotional reality can also change quite quickly.
I would expect that if 1-2-3 Magic were given a good-faith, best-effort trial in this household, it would see the mutual toxicity level drop substantially in the course of one month.
posted by flabdablet at 8:59 PM on December 19, 2011 [8 favorites]
I have given my girlfriend the authority to discipline him as she see's fit, but she has only done so one time (and the results of that didn't turn out how she wanted).
I can easily imagine an initially hostile 8 year old boy interacting with a stepmother who doesn't know how to do effective, ongoing, consistent discipline in such a way as to make her completely lose her shit over the course of four months' cohabitation. Further, it seems pretty likely to me that this is in fact the dynamic at work here.
It's quite possible that the temperament of GF's own child is such that she has never felt the need to impose any kind of discipline before. Some kids are just compliant by nature.
And this is important too:
I have witnessed my child talk back to her, and not listen to her, have to be told more then once to do chores, etc. But no more then he does so to myself or to other adults. Also it seems to be about the same level her own child does the same things to her. To me, it seems like about the normal amount of non-compliance you would get from the typical 8 year old.
If GF's own child used to be more compliant than OP is currently seeing, it's quite possible that GF sees her own child's current levels of cheekiness as a direct result of living with OP's "evil" child. And without an effective, compassionate, consistently-applied discipline strategy in place, this would naturally lead GF to resent the hell out of him for that.
I see the emotional reality here as a consequence of a pattern of toxic interaction that's been allowed to build up in the absence of effective parental discipline, not something necessarily set in stone. I also have personal experience to back up the idea that when circumstances change, emotional reality can also change quite quickly.
I would expect that if 1-2-3 Magic were given a good-faith, best-effort trial in this household, it would see the mutual toxicity level drop substantially in the course of one month.
posted by flabdablet at 8:59 PM on December 19, 2011 [8 favorites]
Yeah, it's not like she is just talking about the kid behind his back; she's taking away his favorite stuffed animal. That's got to be one of the saddest things I've ever read. And two adults can choose to endure a bumpy or hard year or so while they are ironing out their relationship. A year when you're eight is a hell of a long time.
But, BlackWalnut, you don't sound like a bad person to me. You sound like you are pretty understanding of the way kids act-- a lot of parents are much less tolerant about the behavior you describe-- and really trying to do the right thing. I am betting your girlfriend did change around the time she moved in, and that that change was very unexpected and indeed hard to believe if you are they type who expects the best from people.
posted by BibiRose at 9:02 PM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
But, BlackWalnut, you don't sound like a bad person to me. You sound like you are pretty understanding of the way kids act-- a lot of parents are much less tolerant about the behavior you describe-- and really trying to do the right thing. I am betting your girlfriend did change around the time she moved in, and that that change was very unexpected and indeed hard to believe if you are they type who expects the best from people.
posted by BibiRose at 9:02 PM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Your girlfriend sounds remarkably like my stepmother, who came into my life when I was 8. I have now suffered more than two decades of hell at her hands and an incredibly fractured relationship with my father. I so deeply hope that you fix this situation and don't allow her to take over your head.
posted by corn_bread at 9:10 PM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by corn_bread at 9:10 PM on December 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think the ex thing is a red herring. I'm guessing the conversation went gf did this fucking crazy over the top mean thing to me and mom went fuck that bitch, she's not your parent, you don't have to listen to her. They probably didn't swear, but I'm sure mom was thinking it and rightly so. You and your ex should communicate better, but that's another issue.
Here's the thing: your gf wants you to pick her over your kid. You have been mostly picking her over your kid, but not strongly enough. This is of course just atrocious, immature instinct on her prt and you, are, I'm sorry, a bit spineless. By the way she will want you to pick her over and over and over again. You can never pick your son. She needs to be no. 1. Your son is a messy impediment to the life she wants. He has no place in her plans. She resents him. She resents what he represents. Perhaps I don't have enough faith in people, but I don't think people like this can change. Either dump her or let your son go live with mom full time. He should have no further contact with this woman ever.
posted by whoaali at 9:55 PM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
Here's the thing: your gf wants you to pick her over your kid. You have been mostly picking her over your kid, but not strongly enough. This is of course just atrocious, immature instinct on her prt and you, are, I'm sorry, a bit spineless. By the way she will want you to pick her over and over and over again. You can never pick your son. She needs to be no. 1. Your son is a messy impediment to the life she wants. He has no place in her plans. She resents him. She resents what he represents. Perhaps I don't have enough faith in people, but I don't think people like this can change. Either dump her or let your son go live with mom full time. He should have no further contact with this woman ever.
posted by whoaali at 9:55 PM on December 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
I think for this to be salvagable at all, she would have to be bothered by having feelings like that about the 8-year-old son of the person she lives with. But instead she's telling you, "it's the 8-year-old, it's all the 8-year-old, he's intrinsically evil," which most people would at least be apologetic about at some point, maybe claim to have lost their temper, in some way acknowledge that they've said something nobody else would be allowed to say about your child in a serious way and continue taking care of him. Honestly, it's kind of a pistols-at-dawn offense for most people who aren't in love with the person who said it.
The thing is that she's supposed to want to like him and be worried and want to find a way to make it work if she doesn't, because he's a child she's responsible for and he's 8 and he's your little boy. Putting all the blame on the 8-year-old (and the ex; I guess that would be the devil who "spawned" him), and doing so with such extreme language (Have you ever met an evil 8-year-old? Can an evil child ever really be good? How can you love someone who is evil?) is at best childish and primitive, and at worst a sign that something clinical is going on. Therapy isn't going to effect real change nearly fast enough for your kid if she's only going because she doesn't want to lose you, if she doesn't already think, to use the language of addiction, that she has a problem. Your son doesn't have nearly as much time as she does. Maybe let her move back in if therapy works out, but don't make your literally helpless little kid keep living with her because you hope she'll get better and she's agreed to try for your sake. You want her to want to do something for the sake of the child she's parenting.
posted by Adventurer at 10:07 PM on December 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
The thing is that she's supposed to want to like him and be worried and want to find a way to make it work if she doesn't, because he's a child she's responsible for and he's 8 and he's your little boy. Putting all the blame on the 8-year-old (and the ex; I guess that would be the devil who "spawned" him), and doing so with such extreme language (Have you ever met an evil 8-year-old? Can an evil child ever really be good? How can you love someone who is evil?) is at best childish and primitive, and at worst a sign that something clinical is going on. Therapy isn't going to effect real change nearly fast enough for your kid if she's only going because she doesn't want to lose you, if she doesn't already think, to use the language of addiction, that she has a problem. Your son doesn't have nearly as much time as she does. Maybe let her move back in if therapy works out, but don't make your literally helpless little kid keep living with her because you hope she'll get better and she's agreed to try for your sake. You want her to want to do something for the sake of the child she's parenting.
posted by Adventurer at 10:07 PM on December 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
Her kid may be able to shed additional light on the situation since he's seen the two of them interact without your presence. Before another incident comes up, ask him for his view of what has happened. He might side with his mom, but the response might show that your GF has acted out in ways that haven't even been mentioned to you yet.
Separately, if someone I might end up marrying told me a kid of mine was evil or devil spawn or something else derogatory, I would be too angry to deal with it in a rational manner. So it's good that you're asking us about the situation and I hope you take action soon. Neither your kid nor hers should be saddled with the dynamic that's been set up in your household.
posted by dragonplayer at 10:55 PM on December 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
Separately, if someone I might end up marrying told me a kid of mine was evil or devil spawn or something else derogatory, I would be too angry to deal with it in a rational manner. So it's good that you're asking us about the situation and I hope you take action soon. Neither your kid nor hers should be saddled with the dynamic that's been set up in your household.
posted by dragonplayer at 10:55 PM on December 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
I find it a little odd that the OP has given a girlfriend (not a wife, not even a fiancee) "authority to discipline him as she see's fit". Is this old-fashioned of me to say? I'm remarried, and my husband and I each have children from our previous marriages, and I grew up with stepparents, so I'm very familiar with the dynamics. I just can't imagine ever giving a boyfriend from my dating days the authority to discipline my child, even if we were cohabiting (which also doesn't seem like a great idea when kids are involved - oh god I'm old).
posted by webwench at 6:20 AM on December 20, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by webwench at 6:20 AM on December 20, 2011 [7 favorites]
I guess where I'm going is, this isn't a stepmother, this is a girlfriend. The whole point of the boyfriend/girlfriend stage of a relationship is to get to know eachother, and it's a time for you to observe your bf's/gf's behavior around childre, old people, pets, etc., generally so you can assure yourself that you're dating a decent human being. If she's acting like this now towards your child, what's she going to be like if/when she is your wife and your son's stepmother?
posted by webwench at 6:22 AM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by webwench at 6:22 AM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Hey, guys, a little more directly addressing and helping the OP with his problem, and less sparring back and forth, please. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 6:27 AM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by taz (staff) at 6:27 AM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
Hmm, "evil eye"? "devil spawn"? "little shit"?
It's over-the-top language, sure, but no more over-the-top than "My mother slew me, my father ate me."
You could always choose to coach your girlfriend into adulthood, but I think your resources, understanding, love, and affection would be far better spent on your son. Who I think you need to protect at all costs. Taking yourself away from your girlfriend is no more severe a punishment than taking his comfort toy away from your son. She's got to learn, hasn't she?
posted by tel3path at 7:34 AM on December 20, 2011 [6 favorites]
It's over-the-top language, sure, but no more over-the-top than "My mother slew me, my father ate me."
You could always choose to coach your girlfriend into adulthood, but I think your resources, understanding, love, and affection would be far better spent on your son. Who I think you need to protect at all costs. Taking yourself away from your girlfriend is no more severe a punishment than taking his comfort toy away from your son. She's got to learn, hasn't she?
posted by tel3path at 7:34 AM on December 20, 2011 [6 favorites]
If everything your girlfriend has said about your son were true, would that make it OK for her to call him shitty and evil?
No.
Your son's behavior is not the problem. There is actually nothing your son could possibly do that would make it OK for an adult to call them shitty and evil.
posted by prefpara at 10:06 AM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
No.
Your son's behavior is not the problem. There is actually nothing your son could possibly do that would make it OK for an adult to call them shitty and evil.
posted by prefpara at 10:06 AM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm sort of curious why you gave so much parental authority to your girlfriend? Also, if you only have your son 50% of the time, why is he spending so much time under your girlfriend's supervision instead of your own?
posted by anniecat at 10:06 AM on December 20, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by anniecat at 10:06 AM on December 20, 2011 [7 favorites]
The title of your post bothers me. Your girlfriend is in a pissing contest with an eight year old. I hope that you take the advice of others and seriously reconsider the nature of your relationship with your son. By taking her side and giving her more disciplinary power than your girlfriend DESERVES, you are alienating your son from you. Your girlfriend is setting you up to side with her, to ship your son off to live with his biological mother, away from you. She may even get you to believe that he is a problem when he isn't. Your son is old enough to know what's going on. He will hate you for the rest of his life if you don't intervene now. Do the right thing.
Your son is not a red-headed step child. He's your son. Stop this now.
posted by ThaBombShelterSmith at 11:07 AM on December 20, 2011 [25 favorites]
Your son is not a red-headed step child. He's your son. Stop this now.
posted by ThaBombShelterSmith at 11:07 AM on December 20, 2011 [25 favorites]
BlackWalnut, whatever does happens in your blended family, whether you stay as you are with redrawn boundaries, whether your son spends more time with his mother or whether you do decide that the relationship cannot proceed as it is (either you split the household or split up altogether), none of this will be your son's fault and he really needs to be told that from the start. He will think (because children are remarkably perceptive) that if change happens it might be to do with him somehow, but he is not to blame - not because of his acting out, his crying or his speaking to his mom. And please don't let anyone else tell him, "This is all your fault", either, which unfortunately from your description sounds like it could be a possibility - please, as others have said so eloquently, be present for him during whatever happens next.
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 3:01 AM on December 21, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 3:01 AM on December 21, 2011 [9 favorites]
I'm much less negative about the possibility for fixing the situation. I have an eight-year-old child and frankly, sometimes she does act like an evil little shit. I adore her and would never ever in a million billion years call her that to her face, but when I'm alone with my husband, I have used that exact phrase. It's just venting. She's basically a good kid, but man, does she have her moments. I have also witnessed the nasty, hateful looks that an eight-year-old can give from time to time and "evil eye" isn't an unreasonable description. Since there's not a good relationship to begin with, your girlfriend is probably getting that look much more frequently than I am and without the good stuff (that I get from my daughter) it's going to be hard for her to see his good side. On the other hand, if my husband were hearing nothing from me but how awful our daughter is, we'd be in counseling right now. As it is, I adore my little girl and it's obvious that the bad things I say about her (when she's not around) are hyperbole coming from frustration. So it's possible that your girlfriend doesn't really believe those things about your son and is just expressing her frustration in the moment, but if that's all she's saying, it's still unacceptable.
That being said, it is absolutely up to your girlfriend to make it work. Your son is just a kid. He will listen to her and act respectfully if it makes sense to him to do so. Right now, her unreasonableness, negativity and inconsistency combined with his mom's discouragement mean he's got no reason to recognize her authority.
Bonding: Your girlfriend and son need to have some positive interaction so that they don't see each other as the enemy that they have to get through to get to you. They have to get to know each other as two people who are lucky to be together because the same person loves them both. That should be her full-time job for a while.
Name-Calling: As I said, it's not a big deal for my husband and me because we know where it's coming from, but that's not the case with your girlfriend. She needs to show good faith to you by describing the behavior and frustration while still being positive about the child.
The stuffed toy incident: She should absolutely not have gone the nuclear option on her first attempt at discipline, and she needs to admit that to him and apologize for hurting him before she attempts to discipline him again. He knows she was being a jerk - she needs to fess up that she knows it too. If she doesn't know it, there's a problem you may not be able to get past.
Discipline: If you're giving her permission to discipline your son, you also need to give her tools to use. You need a discipline strategy that is consistent between you. If you would send him to his room for talking back, so should she. If you would take away his game boy for the day for not listening, so should she. There need to be pre-defined consequences for the most common infractions, and if something comes up that doesn't fit, eight is old enough to delay consequences until you can talk to each other and decide what would be appropriate. If your son sees her as enforcing his father's rules, he's much more likely to accept it than if she's doing it on her own and just being mean.
The Ex: Both your son and your ex need to understand that separate houses have separate rules. Mom can decide who has authority in her house, but Dad decides who has authority in yours. At the moment, the girlfriend is Dad's agent. If their relationship improves, she can be an authority figure on her own.
posted by Dojie at 7:03 AM on December 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
That being said, it is absolutely up to your girlfriend to make it work. Your son is just a kid. He will listen to her and act respectfully if it makes sense to him to do so. Right now, her unreasonableness, negativity and inconsistency combined with his mom's discouragement mean he's got no reason to recognize her authority.
Bonding: Your girlfriend and son need to have some positive interaction so that they don't see each other as the enemy that they have to get through to get to you. They have to get to know each other as two people who are lucky to be together because the same person loves them both. That should be her full-time job for a while.
Name-Calling: As I said, it's not a big deal for my husband and me because we know where it's coming from, but that's not the case with your girlfriend. She needs to show good faith to you by describing the behavior and frustration while still being positive about the child.
The stuffed toy incident: She should absolutely not have gone the nuclear option on her first attempt at discipline, and she needs to admit that to him and apologize for hurting him before she attempts to discipline him again. He knows she was being a jerk - she needs to fess up that she knows it too. If she doesn't know it, there's a problem you may not be able to get past.
Discipline: If you're giving her permission to discipline your son, you also need to give her tools to use. You need a discipline strategy that is consistent between you. If you would send him to his room for talking back, so should she. If you would take away his game boy for the day for not listening, so should she. There need to be pre-defined consequences for the most common infractions, and if something comes up that doesn't fit, eight is old enough to delay consequences until you can talk to each other and decide what would be appropriate. If your son sees her as enforcing his father's rules, he's much more likely to accept it than if she's doing it on her own and just being mean.
The Ex: Both your son and your ex need to understand that separate houses have separate rules. Mom can decide who has authority in her house, but Dad decides who has authority in yours. At the moment, the girlfriend is Dad's agent. If their relationship improves, she can be an authority figure on her own.
posted by Dojie at 7:03 AM on December 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
I grew up in this home.
I am the other child. The girlfriends kid.
My home was so dysfunctional, although I never knew it at the time. My mother treated me and my step-sister great. However for some reason my step-brother and her never "clicked."
It started innocently enough, and so many things you are saying strike red flags in my brain. At first he was just "dis-respectful" although hard for her to "give concrete examples."
Then came the "creative" punishments. You know what is wrong with taking away your kid's stuffed animal. That punishment was NOT in order to correct behaviour in a loving way (which is what punishments SHOULD be). This was to hurt him. He "hurt" her, so she hurt him back. That is NOT reasonable behaviour from an adult directed to a child.
I am writing this because I want to warn you that in my family things got much much worse. My younger brother was ostracised from the family. He was called "spawn" "evil" "gross" "disgusting" and "unworthy," both to my step-father and to my brothers face. In addition, these became things that my sister and I began to adopt ourselves (case and point, unless I catch myself I naturally refer to my STEP sister as my SISTER and my step brother as my STEP brother. He is the "outer" "other" "not-included" one. This is something I, as a child, picked up on. Couldn't help it.)
By the time my brother was 8 (4 years in) he wasn't allowed to eat with the family because his eating habits were "disgusting." He ate in the living room, while the "family" (notice how messed up that is!?) ate in the dining room. This happened even at CHRISTMAS! The worst part, I didn't even think this was strange! This was "normal" to me, because it always just "made sense" to me that he was "weird, disgusting, abnormal, annoying."
In the end, my Mom basically asked my step-dad to choose between her and his son. She wanted him out of the house (he was 12). My step-dad refused and they ended up splitting up. They should have split up way WAY sooner. There is no way in hell my step-brother has not been severely. messed. up by this.
I know you think that you would never let this sort of thing happen to your son, but it is a gradual thing. Little by little he is branded "bad" "evil" "disgusting" "different". My brother picked his nose, he was disgusting. He acted out, he was evil. He ate with his mouth open, he didn't DESERVE to eat with the family. It is awful. No kid should have to deal with that!
That's my warning, from someone who has been there.
posted by pandorasbox at 11:39 AM on December 22, 2011 [13 favorites]
I am the other child. The girlfriends kid.
My home was so dysfunctional, although I never knew it at the time. My mother treated me and my step-sister great. However for some reason my step-brother and her never "clicked."
It started innocently enough, and so many things you are saying strike red flags in my brain. At first he was just "dis-respectful" although hard for her to "give concrete examples."
Then came the "creative" punishments. You know what is wrong with taking away your kid's stuffed animal. That punishment was NOT in order to correct behaviour in a loving way (which is what punishments SHOULD be). This was to hurt him. He "hurt" her, so she hurt him back. That is NOT reasonable behaviour from an adult directed to a child.
I am writing this because I want to warn you that in my family things got much much worse. My younger brother was ostracised from the family. He was called "spawn" "evil" "gross" "disgusting" and "unworthy," both to my step-father and to my brothers face. In addition, these became things that my sister and I began to adopt ourselves (case and point, unless I catch myself I naturally refer to my STEP sister as my SISTER and my step brother as my STEP brother. He is the "outer" "other" "not-included" one. This is something I, as a child, picked up on. Couldn't help it.)
By the time my brother was 8 (4 years in) he wasn't allowed to eat with the family because his eating habits were "disgusting." He ate in the living room, while the "family" (notice how messed up that is!?) ate in the dining room. This happened even at CHRISTMAS! The worst part, I didn't even think this was strange! This was "normal" to me, because it always just "made sense" to me that he was "weird, disgusting, abnormal, annoying."
In the end, my Mom basically asked my step-dad to choose between her and his son. She wanted him out of the house (he was 12). My step-dad refused and they ended up splitting up. They should have split up way WAY sooner. There is no way in hell my step-brother has not been severely. messed. up by this.
I know you think that you would never let this sort of thing happen to your son, but it is a gradual thing. Little by little he is branded "bad" "evil" "disgusting" "different". My brother picked his nose, he was disgusting. He acted out, he was evil. He ate with his mouth open, he didn't DESERVE to eat with the family. It is awful. No kid should have to deal with that!
That's my warning, from someone who has been there.
posted by pandorasbox at 11:39 AM on December 22, 2011 [13 favorites]
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posted by oceanjesse at 4:06 AM on December 19, 2011 [61 favorites]