Could my friend's car be to blame for 2 spin-outs?
December 5, 2011 8:52 AM Subscribe
A friend is wondering whether her '06 Honda Civic is to blame for 2 highway spin-outs over the past 5 years. She's experiencing a lot of anxiety driving on the highway after spinning 360 degrees in both instances, and is unsure whether a mechanical issue may have caused her to lose control of the car. I assume she would be less likely to spin out with a larger, heavier car? Mechanics haven't found anything wrong with it, but is it possible that this particular model has a tendency to spin out? Also, is there a technical term for "spin-out" that I can Google? Because searching "06 honda civic spin out" ain't workin' for me.
Try using "loss of control" as your search term
posted by buggzzee23 at 8:57 AM on December 5, 2011
posted by buggzzee23 at 8:57 AM on December 5, 2011
Response by poster: Actually yeah, should have been more clear. The first time she went over a sleep bumpers, the noise scared her, and she jerked the car sideways and then lost control. The second time was after changing lanes. She wasn't excessively speeding either time and the road wasn't wet either.
posted by tatiana wishbone at 8:58 AM on December 5, 2011
posted by tatiana wishbone at 8:58 AM on December 5, 2011
No cars 'spin out' for no reason.
Without much more detailed information it is impossible to establish if there is a fault with the driver, the road conditions at the time or the car itself. There has to be a fault with one of these as normal examples of all three will not result in any kind of 'spin out'.
How many people have inspected the car? The easiest solution would be for an additional inspection of the car with a detailed account of the incidents in question to aid problem solving.
posted by Brockles at 8:59 AM on December 5, 2011
Without much more detailed information it is impossible to establish if there is a fault with the driver, the road conditions at the time or the car itself. There has to be a fault with one of these as normal examples of all three will not result in any kind of 'spin out'.
How many people have inspected the car? The easiest solution would be for an additional inspection of the car with a detailed account of the incidents in question to aid problem solving.
posted by Brockles at 8:59 AM on December 5, 2011
The first time she went over a sleep bumpers, the noise scared her, and she jerked the car sideways and then lost control.
From that description, that incident is entirely driver related. You can't just swing on a steering wheel and hope the car will cope with it.
posted by Brockles at 9:00 AM on December 5, 2011 [5 favorites]
From that description, that incident is entirely driver related. You can't just swing on a steering wheel and hope the car will cope with it.
posted by Brockles at 9:00 AM on December 5, 2011 [5 favorites]
Do you have any idea if she did anything else, like maybe yanked up the parking brake?
posted by Flashman at 9:08 AM on December 5, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Flashman at 9:08 AM on December 5, 2011 [1 favorite]
In the example you put forth, it sounds like driver error. If you drift over the rumble strips, the best course of action is to drift back off them, not swerve off.
My wife has an '05 Civic, basic model. It handles better than most sports cars from the '80s. I've had an '01 Civic airborne and slightly sideways (don't tell my sister, it was her car) and the damn car just about corrected itself back to straight. Point being, no, Civics do not have a tendency toward handling issues; quite the opposite.
posted by notsnot at 9:15 AM on December 5, 2011 [2 favorites]
My wife has an '05 Civic, basic model. It handles better than most sports cars from the '80s. I've had an '01 Civic airborne and slightly sideways (don't tell my sister, it was her car) and the damn car just about corrected itself back to straight. Point being, no, Civics do not have a tendency toward handling issues; quite the opposite.
posted by notsnot at 9:15 AM on December 5, 2011 [2 favorites]
Yes. And please don't encourage her to get a larger and heavier car. In fact, encourage her to ride a bike.
posted by zomg at 9:16 AM on December 5, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by zomg at 9:16 AM on December 5, 2011 [5 favorites]
Best answer: If the car checks out mechanically, and has solid tread on its tires this is almost certainly related to the drivers abilities and driving style.
Things that should be thoroughly inspected - brakes, suspension, tire wear, steering components. With that said it's certainly possible that another vehicle will respond to the driving style with less alarming results, but what vehicle that is I can't say. An 06 Civic is about as well balanced a small sedan can get, I wouldn't at all go to a heavier vehicle, all that means is there is a lot more energy in the equation.
It might possibly be worth looking in to a solid AWD sedan (just for the attached to the road feeling that they can bring), but I really feel like some time with coach may pay off here to provider her with greater confidence and educate her on how to identify a mechanical defect with the vehicle if there is one. If the problem is with the drivers style of driving it's likely that a vehicle switch won't have all that great of an impact because the vehicle is likely being driven too close to the edge of its ability to perform safely.
posted by iamabot at 9:19 AM on December 5, 2011 [2 favorites]
Things that should be thoroughly inspected - brakes, suspension, tire wear, steering components. With that said it's certainly possible that another vehicle will respond to the driving style with less alarming results, but what vehicle that is I can't say. An 06 Civic is about as well balanced a small sedan can get, I wouldn't at all go to a heavier vehicle, all that means is there is a lot more energy in the equation.
It might possibly be worth looking in to a solid AWD sedan (just for the attached to the road feeling that they can bring), but I really feel like some time with coach may pay off here to provider her with greater confidence and educate her on how to identify a mechanical defect with the vehicle if there is one. If the problem is with the drivers style of driving it's likely that a vehicle switch won't have all that great of an impact because the vehicle is likely being driven too close to the edge of its ability to perform safely.
posted by iamabot at 9:19 AM on December 5, 2011 [2 favorites]
Is it possible she made contact with another car? A friend of mine cut someone off on the Long Island Expressway and wound up spun around in what amounted to a PIT maneuver.
In any event, since the car checks out mechanically, it sounds like your friend could use some driver training.
posted by exogenous at 9:23 AM on December 5, 2011
In any event, since the car checks out mechanically, it sounds like your friend could use some driver training.
posted by exogenous at 9:23 AM on December 5, 2011
The first time she went over a sleep bumpers, the noise scared her, and she jerked the car sideways and then lost control.
That's a very classic (and fixable) case of over-correction. She just needs to practice making stops and sharp turns in an empty parking lot.
The second time was after changing lanes. She wasn't excessively speeding either time and the road wasn't wet either.
Not enough detail here, but this is probably user error, too.
But if there's ONE THING she can do to help, the most bang-for-the-buck thing she can do ... is get four brand-new tires. Spend the money. Just go to a good, reputable tire shop and say, "I need the grippiest all-weather tires available for this car."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:23 AM on December 5, 2011 [1 favorite]
That's a very classic (and fixable) case of over-correction. She just needs to practice making stops and sharp turns in an empty parking lot.
The second time was after changing lanes. She wasn't excessively speeding either time and the road wasn't wet either.
Not enough detail here, but this is probably user error, too.
But if there's ONE THING she can do to help, the most bang-for-the-buck thing she can do ... is get four brand-new tires. Spend the money. Just go to a good, reputable tire shop and say, "I need the grippiest all-weather tires available for this car."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:23 AM on December 5, 2011 [1 favorite]
I would agree with the driver error diagnosis, however a contributing factor could be old and/or cheap tires. Did she buy the 4 for 100 at Pep boys? or maybe still has the original 10 year old tires? if so that can definately make losing control of the car easier. A good set of tires (the medium priced house brand is usually a good bet at any tire shop) can really, really make a big difference in how a car handles. As far as handling goes it doesn't really get better than a well maintaiend civic in that class of cars. You have to move up to sports cars to get better handling and those are actually less forgiving during emergency ,ahhh, corrections.
posted by bartonlong at 9:26 AM on December 5, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by bartonlong at 9:26 AM on December 5, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm going to second looking at her tires here. The one and only time I've ever put my car in a 360 was about 48 hours after getting a new set of very cheap tires from VIP. I wasn't doing anything unusual, just changing lanes, and suddenly I was out of control.
posted by anastasiav at 9:26 AM on December 5, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by anastasiav at 9:26 AM on December 5, 2011 [2 favorites]
I assume she would be less likely to spin out with a larger, heavier car?
You're wrong, by the way. Bigger is not necessarily better. Provided there's no actual mechanical problems, her 06 Honda Civic is actually among the best cars available for low-skilled drivers. Well-proportioned, middle-of-the-road performance, solid as a rock. Can you get better? Sure. Will it really matter to her? Nope.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:27 AM on December 5, 2011
You're wrong, by the way. Bigger is not necessarily better. Provided there's no actual mechanical problems, her 06 Honda Civic is actually among the best cars available for low-skilled drivers. Well-proportioned, middle-of-the-road performance, solid as a rock. Can you get better? Sure. Will it really matter to her? Nope.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:27 AM on December 5, 2011
Seconding CPB, depending on the weather/etc and geographic location if this was on a cold day where the road surface and ambient temperature was below 40F, and there is any chance she drives in snow and/or ice it might make sense to get a set of studless winter tires (Blizzaks/etc) for the wet/cold season.
If it's just normal everyday driving where the weather is nice new grippy all seasons are the way to go.
posted by iamabot at 9:28 AM on December 5, 2011 [1 favorite]
If it's just normal everyday driving where the weather is nice new grippy all seasons are the way to go.
posted by iamabot at 9:28 AM on December 5, 2011 [1 favorite]
The technical term you are looking for is "oversteer" and to a certain extent front-wheel drive cars have a tendency to oversteer. This is because both the force vector from the weight of the engine and the traction are applied to the front wheels and the rear wheels tend to come loose before the front wheels, resulting in the slide that we call oversteer. However, this problem is entirely avoidable by better driving. Slower speeds in corners and less aggressive steering inputs will usually prevent the initial slide and proper counter-steering once the slide begins will prevent spinning. The most effective way to avoid this problem would be to get some driving training.
It would also be the case that a rear-wheel drive car would decrease the chances of entering into an oversteer situation without really dramatic errors on the drivers part. I would still avoid a high center of gravity car like a sport utility vehicle because poor driving could result in even worse problems like rolling.
posted by Lame_username at 9:29 AM on December 5, 2011 [2 favorites]
It would also be the case that a rear-wheel drive car would decrease the chances of entering into an oversteer situation without really dramatic errors on the drivers part. I would still avoid a high center of gravity car like a sport utility vehicle because poor driving could result in even worse problems like rolling.
posted by Lame_username at 9:29 AM on December 5, 2011 [2 favorites]
I think it's probably time to have yourself or another very seasoned driver take the car for a test drive and evaluate how the car is performing (mechanics will totally do this for you too). It may be that there is a mechanical defect only present during an actual road test. At the very least that will give you some perspective on how the car is performing with its current tires/etc.
posted by iamabot at 9:33 AM on December 5, 2011
posted by iamabot at 9:33 AM on December 5, 2011
I'm assuming that a competant mechanic looked at the car already, which would rule out things like worn tires or soft rear suspension, which would both increase oversteer. Underinflation of the rear tires would also be something they should look at. Both of the situations you describe sound like they were caused by 1) excessive steering input and 2) panic reaction of either lifting the throttle or worse, braking.
posted by Lame_username at 9:35 AM on December 5, 2011
posted by Lame_username at 9:35 AM on December 5, 2011
TIRES!!!!!!!!!!!
I had this happen when i changed the front tires on my corolla and not changing the back.
You might think well its a front wheel drive car so change the front tires first. WRONG
IF the front tires have more grip then the back it will cause the car to spin.
Have her get 4 new tires.
IF the front tires have more grip then the rear the car will spin out.
posted by majortom1981 at 9:37 AM on December 5, 2011
I had this happen when i changed the front tires on my corolla and not changing the back.
You might think well its a front wheel drive car so change the front tires first. WRONG
IF the front tires have more grip then the back it will cause the car to spin.
Have her get 4 new tires.
IF the front tires have more grip then the rear the car will spin out.
posted by majortom1981 at 9:37 AM on December 5, 2011
A friend is wondering whether her '06 Honda Civic is to blame for 2 highway spin-outs over the past 5 years.
I have just noticed the time frame - it is almost certainly driver related as any fault with the car would have manifested itself more often than twice in 5 years. Clearly the driver is trying to do something with the car that they don't understand is bad.
The VAST majority of car accidents are the drivers fault. Overwhelmingly so. Your friend needs to get some advanced driver training lessons and perhaps the reasons for the previous two incidents will become obvious when the theory and practice starts. While I agree that someone knowledgeable driving the car could be a good belt and braces means to put the owner's mind at rest, I consider it very unlikely the issue is with the car.
The technical term you are looking for is "oversteer" and to a certain extent front-wheel drive cars have a tendency to oversteer.
Modern cars have pretty aggressive geometry-induced tendencies to understeer. The 'front wheel drives will oversteer' mantra is nowhere near as valid as it used to be. Ditto your logic about rear wheel drive - there is much less difference between the main handling characteristics in most driving in modern cars.
Just because not enough people are saying this, I will repeat it:
A different/smaller/bigger/taller/shorter/longer car WILL NOT FIX THIS PROBLEM (particularly the first one). The driver needs some kind of education to avoid these issues in future
posted by Brockles at 9:38 AM on December 5, 2011 [2 favorites]
I have just noticed the time frame - it is almost certainly driver related as any fault with the car would have manifested itself more often than twice in 5 years. Clearly the driver is trying to do something with the car that they don't understand is bad.
The VAST majority of car accidents are the drivers fault. Overwhelmingly so. Your friend needs to get some advanced driver training lessons and perhaps the reasons for the previous two incidents will become obvious when the theory and practice starts. While I agree that someone knowledgeable driving the car could be a good belt and braces means to put the owner's mind at rest, I consider it very unlikely the issue is with the car.
The technical term you are looking for is "oversteer" and to a certain extent front-wheel drive cars have a tendency to oversteer.
Modern cars have pretty aggressive geometry-induced tendencies to understeer. The 'front wheel drives will oversteer' mantra is nowhere near as valid as it used to be. Ditto your logic about rear wheel drive - there is much less difference between the main handling characteristics in most driving in modern cars.
Just because not enough people are saying this, I will repeat it:
A different/smaller/bigger/taller/shorter/longer car WILL NOT FIX THIS PROBLEM (particularly the first one). The driver needs some kind of education to avoid these issues in future
posted by Brockles at 9:38 AM on December 5, 2011 [2 favorites]
Your friend is falling asleep while driving.
posted by srboisvert at 9:39 AM on December 5, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 9:39 AM on December 5, 2011 [2 favorites]
Four new tires and a driver confidence education course will fix this.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:42 AM on December 5, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by DarlingBri at 9:42 AM on December 5, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: assume she would be less likely to spin out with a larger, heavier car?
No. What you are looking for is a car with Electronic Stability Control. Studies have credited this bit of technology as preventing a colossal amount of accidents (somewhere between 20-30% I think).
ESC is a system to help prevent cars from spinning out of control. It is very common on new cars these days (and like ABS, don't buy any new car that lacks it), but very uncommon on older cars - it's a fairly recent technology, but extremely successful. I love it.
posted by -harlequin- at 9:46 AM on December 5, 2011 [4 favorites]
No. What you are looking for is a car with Electronic Stability Control. Studies have credited this bit of technology as preventing a colossal amount of accidents (somewhere between 20-30% I think).
ESC is a system to help prevent cars from spinning out of control. It is very common on new cars these days (and like ABS, don't buy any new car that lacks it), but very uncommon on older cars - it's a fairly recent technology, but extremely successful. I love it.
posted by -harlequin- at 9:46 AM on December 5, 2011 [4 favorites]
Test drive from someone savvy she trusts, perhaps new tyres, but all signs point to driving lessons. If she's driven all her life somewhere that hands out licences like they're ad flyers, and where there's no real formal instruction, it's very possible for bad habits to get established early and normalised, especially habits that only kick in under stressful situations. She sounds like she'd really benefit from being in a controlled environment where she can establish new habits for lane changes, and learn how to get out of skids if they occur.
posted by holgate at 9:47 AM on December 5, 2011
posted by holgate at 9:47 AM on December 5, 2011
preventing a colossal amount of accidents (somewhere between 20-30% I think)
My mistake, it's actually estimated at preventing 33% of fatal accidents!
posted by -harlequin- at 9:48 AM on December 5, 2011
My mistake, it's actually estimated at preventing 33% of fatal accidents!
posted by -harlequin- at 9:48 AM on December 5, 2011
Response by poster: Thanks all - sounds like driver error and tires were to blame. She's gotten new tires since the incidents and I will be gently suggesting that she take a defensive driving course and letting her know that bigger =/= safer.
posted by tatiana wishbone at 9:50 AM on December 5, 2011
posted by tatiana wishbone at 9:50 AM on December 5, 2011
I assume the front brakes have been checked by the mechanics?
Getting a front-wheel drive car to spin is *hard*. Here's how to do it.
A skid control course is much cheaper than a new car with ESP. It teaches you how to react in emergency loss-of-control cases. What's the use of stability control if you're steering in the wrong direction?
posted by Psychnic at 10:15 AM on December 5, 2011
Getting a front-wheel drive car to spin is *hard*. Here's how to do it.
A skid control course is much cheaper than a new car with ESP. It teaches you how to react in emergency loss-of-control cases. What's the use of stability control if you're steering in the wrong direction?
posted by Psychnic at 10:15 AM on December 5, 2011
Your friend was experiencing snap oversteer. Extreme (over limit) steering, then a precisely timed quick lift off of the accelerator. After the spin had started, she slammed the brakes. I still do not understand how that could happen when changing lanes. Oil on the road surface, maybe?
posted by Psychnic at 10:46 AM on December 5, 2011
posted by Psychnic at 10:46 AM on December 5, 2011
With Psychnic, I have to wonder whether she was changing lanes, saw someone was already in the lane, and jerked the car back (and maybe some compensatory jerks afterwards), or in other words: she panicked. I think an in-car video camera would be very illuminating here.
posted by rhizome at 10:53 AM on December 5, 2011
posted by rhizome at 10:53 AM on December 5, 2011
If the defensive driving course idea doesn't get any traction (sorry), getting a group of friends together to go go-kart racing on a wet track or in the rain may be another way to get a lot of direct experience with losing and regaining control. (Talk to the operators about this beforehand - some venues have racing karts that can easily exceed their traction and reward skilful controlled driving, some venues have slow putt-putters intended for kids that could be driven head-on into a brick wall safely, and there are venues in between.)
Go-karts don't have ABS or traction control, so you get the unvarnished underlying physics.
posted by -harlequin- at 11:24 AM on December 5, 2011
Go-karts don't have ABS or traction control, so you get the unvarnished underlying physics.
posted by -harlequin- at 11:24 AM on December 5, 2011
The first time she went over a sleep bumpers, the noise scared her, and she jerked the car sideways and then lost control.
When I was 16, in this exact same situation, I spun out in a 1972 International Travel-all. A heavier car is not safer than a lighter one.
When I got a ticket for "making an illegal left-hand turn on the freeway" (the CHP officer sure had a sense of humor), I learned a lot about defensive steering - my instinct was to over-steer away from the sleep bumpers and that was the wrong thing to do. The most one should ever turn the wheel to avoid a road hazard is 1/4 turn, so moving from outside the lane to inside the lane should be much much MUCH less than that. It's a learned skill.
I had a lot of anxiety after my accident (heck, I probably had a lot of driving anxiety before my accident, and I bet your friend does too), and what helped was more supervised driving time.
posted by muddgirl at 12:05 PM on December 5, 2011
When I was 16, in this exact same situation, I spun out in a 1972 International Travel-all. A heavier car is not safer than a lighter one.
When I got a ticket for "making an illegal left-hand turn on the freeway" (the CHP officer sure had a sense of humor), I learned a lot about defensive steering - my instinct was to over-steer away from the sleep bumpers and that was the wrong thing to do. The most one should ever turn the wheel to avoid a road hazard is 1/4 turn, so moving from outside the lane to inside the lane should be much much MUCH less than that. It's a learned skill.
I had a lot of anxiety after my accident (heck, I probably had a lot of driving anxiety before my accident, and I bet your friend does too), and what helped was more supervised driving time.
posted by muddgirl at 12:05 PM on December 5, 2011
Dropped a sentence somehow - when I got a ticket from CHP, I had to go to a one-day get-out-of-a-ticket course, where I learned about defensive steering.
posted by muddgirl at 12:09 PM on December 5, 2011
posted by muddgirl at 12:09 PM on December 5, 2011
Modern cars have pretty aggressive geometry-induced tendencies to understeer. The 'front wheel drives will oversteer' mantra is nowhere near as valid as it used to be.Although this is true, it primarily applies to the handling characteristics of a car taken into turns at speeds that exceed the car's handling capacity, which are the characteristics most important to performance enthusiasts. However, neither of these cases appear to be related to driving too fast into tight curves. Front wheel drive cars still have the disconcerting property of going back-to-front when you suddenly come off the gas during an abrupt turn, which I would bet uncomfortably large sums is what happened to the friend. When driven at reasonable speeds, it is still quite possible to oversteer a front-wheel drive car by coming hard of the throttle at the apex of the turn -- it is damn near impossible to do that in a rear-wheel drive car. Of course, stability control would also be a fine solution. I'm always focused on how to disable it, so that I forget it can be a good thing.
posted by Lame_username at 12:11 PM on December 5, 2011
I wouldn't necessarily blame her for the spinout after the sleep bump.
Whenever there's a bump on an otherwise smooth road, it tends to develop an oil slick right after it because droplets of oil hanging around on any undercarriage can be dislodged by hitting the bump and will end up on the road.
And perhaps not even the second, if the lane markers had bumps the way they often do here in Seattle.
This can be drastically exacerbated in either circumstance if she happens to be one of those drivers who hug either edge of their lane rather than driving right down the center, because that would put her tires on pavement which could be extraordinarily oily compared to the areas subject to the cleansing effect of the passage of many tires.
Were either or both of these spinouts after a comparatively lengthy dry interval,?
posted by jamjam at 12:21 PM on December 5, 2011
Whenever there's a bump on an otherwise smooth road, it tends to develop an oil slick right after it because droplets of oil hanging around on any undercarriage can be dislodged by hitting the bump and will end up on the road.
And perhaps not even the second, if the lane markers had bumps the way they often do here in Seattle.
This can be drastically exacerbated in either circumstance if she happens to be one of those drivers who hug either edge of their lane rather than driving right down the center, because that would put her tires on pavement which could be extraordinarily oily compared to the areas subject to the cleansing effect of the passage of many tires.
Were either or both of these spinouts after a comparatively lengthy dry interval,?
posted by jamjam at 12:21 PM on December 5, 2011
Whenever there's a bump on an otherwise smooth road, it tends to develop an oil slick right after it because droplets of oil hanging around on any undercarriage can be dislodged by hitting the bump and will end up on the road.
Cite, please. It'd be a very weird drop of oil that was dislodged by a sprung and damped movement of the chassis rather than removed or spread by the airflow under the car. I find it extraordinarily unlikely that any concentration of oil will occur after a bump and have certainly seen no evidence to support it.
Front wheel drive cars still have the disconcerting property of going back-to-front when you suddenly come off the gas during an abrupt turn
A sudden, or series of sudden, wheel movements can destabilise any car in such an over-correction example. Front, rear and 4w-drive cars will spin out roughly equally as a result. The increase in dynamic stability (tendency to understeer) of FWD cars relates to handling primarily (the gist as I read it in the original comment I was replying to), but "Oh Poop" wheel swings screw everything up anyway. Front wheel drives are not much more prone to this than they used to be and it also is relatively easy to get a rear wheel drive car to slide at the rear with a heavy throttle lift and turn. I don't think you are trying hard enough... ;)
posted by Brockles at 12:29 PM on December 5, 2011
Cite, please. It'd be a very weird drop of oil that was dislodged by a sprung and damped movement of the chassis rather than removed or spread by the airflow under the car. I find it extraordinarily unlikely that any concentration of oil will occur after a bump and have certainly seen no evidence to support it.
Front wheel drive cars still have the disconcerting property of going back-to-front when you suddenly come off the gas during an abrupt turn
A sudden, or series of sudden, wheel movements can destabilise any car in such an over-correction example. Front, rear and 4w-drive cars will spin out roughly equally as a result. The increase in dynamic stability (tendency to understeer) of FWD cars relates to handling primarily (the gist as I read it in the original comment I was replying to), but "Oh Poop" wheel swings screw everything up anyway. Front wheel drives are not much more prone to this than they used to be and it also is relatively easy to get a rear wheel drive car to slide at the rear with a heavy throttle lift and turn. I don't think you are trying hard enough... ;)
posted by Brockles at 12:29 PM on December 5, 2011
Cite, please. It'd be a very weird drop of oil that was dislodged by a sprung and damped movement of the chassis rather than removed or spread by the airflow under the car. I find it extraordinarily unlikely that any concentration of oil will occur after a bump and have certainly seen no evidence to support it.
I've personally observed this many times on many road surfaces, on highways and residential streets; I can't speak to your observations or lack of them, of course.
As for airflow, that's a constant at constant speed and as such will not cause a droplet to fall in any particular location. A droplet which is just on the verge of falling, however, will fall at a very slight jolt, and a jolt which is too slight to dislodge such a droplet would be too slight to make an effective sleep bump, I'd think, because no one would feel it.
Nor would airflow tend to spread oil on an undercarriage. If you'll think about it for a moment, perhaps you'll realize it would tend to push it toward a trailing edge, where it would tend to accumulate and then fall off at a bump.
posted by jamjam at 1:15 PM on December 5, 2011
I've personally observed this many times on many road surfaces, on highways and residential streets; I can't speak to your observations or lack of them, of course.
As for airflow, that's a constant at constant speed and as such will not cause a droplet to fall in any particular location. A droplet which is just on the verge of falling, however, will fall at a very slight jolt, and a jolt which is too slight to dislodge such a droplet would be too slight to make an effective sleep bump, I'd think, because no one would feel it.
Nor would airflow tend to spread oil on an undercarriage. If you'll think about it for a moment, perhaps you'll realize it would tend to push it toward a trailing edge, where it would tend to accumulate and then fall off at a bump.
posted by jamjam at 1:15 PM on December 5, 2011
Whenever there's a bump on an otherwise smooth road, it tends to develop an oil slick right after it because droplets of oil hanging around on any undercarriage can be dislodged by hitting the bump and will end up on the road.
As said above, you can SEE it. It's the black spot ...
I am surprised noone has mentioned tyre pressures - low(er) pressures in the rear can dramatically lower the 'snap oversteer' threshold. Combine this with crap tyres, and you have an accident looking for a place to happen.
posted by GeeEmm at 1:25 PM on December 5, 2011
As said above, you can SEE it. It's the black spot ...
I am surprised noone has mentioned tyre pressures - low(er) pressures in the rear can dramatically lower the 'snap oversteer' threshold. Combine this with crap tyres, and you have an accident looking for a place to happen.
posted by GeeEmm at 1:25 PM on December 5, 2011
Just wanted to ditto everyone who's saying driver error is the most likely problem --- two 360 degree spinouts in just five years? Or to put it another way, how long has she had a driver's license, plus how many accidents/near misses has she had in that time? We don't really need the number, but you should ask her, just so SHE can think about it! And I'd REALLY recommend she take a remedial/defensive driving course or else switch to a bicycle.
In the interests of fairness, I'll admit that I've had a 360 degree spinout, in icy road conditions in a '69 Beetle; I've been driving for 40 years, and the ONLY accident I've had was being rear-ended by a hit & run driver. Your friend's spinouts sound like what's usually called Failure To Pay Full Time And Attention, which can be anything from falling asleep at the wheel to playing with the radio, texting or phone calls or trying to retrieve something from her purse.
posted by easily confused at 2:46 PM on December 5, 2011
In the interests of fairness, I'll admit that I've had a 360 degree spinout, in icy road conditions in a '69 Beetle; I've been driving for 40 years, and the ONLY accident I've had was being rear-ended by a hit & run driver. Your friend's spinouts sound like what's usually called Failure To Pay Full Time And Attention, which can be anything from falling asleep at the wheel to playing with the radio, texting or phone calls or trying to retrieve something from her purse.
posted by easily confused at 2:46 PM on December 5, 2011
I drive an '08 civic and had a hydroplaning incident a few weeks ago on the highway where I think I did a 360 so I can relate to her anxiety. There was light rain and I was going the speed limit, but the rest is a total blur until I hit the median(luckily didn't hit any other cars). I don't know what I can do differently in the future other than just not drive in the rain. I'm not normally a bad driver either - have always considered myself a good driver!! - so I was wondering if anything about the car contributed to it. Good luck to your friend...losing control of a car is actually one of my biggest nightmares so it will take me awhile to feel comfortable again.
posted by fromageball at 2:55 PM on December 5, 2011
posted by fromageball at 2:55 PM on December 5, 2011
It'd be a very weird drop of oil that was dislodged by a sprung and damped movement of the chassis rather than removed or spread by the airflow under the car.
I have also observed this. After a bump or even a dip in the pavement, there is often a black stain on the road. It has to be accumulated single drops of oil from hundreds of cars. However, I believe the "sleep bumps" referred to are the corduroy pattern cut into the edge of highways to wake up nodding drivers, and the oil slick thing probably doesn't come into play there.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 2:58 PM on December 5, 2011
I have also observed this. After a bump or even a dip in the pavement, there is often a black stain on the road. It has to be accumulated single drops of oil from hundreds of cars. However, I believe the "sleep bumps" referred to are the corduroy pattern cut into the edge of highways to wake up nodding drivers, and the oil slick thing probably doesn't come into play there.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 2:58 PM on December 5, 2011
Your friend needs to get some advanced driver training lessons and perhaps the reasons for the previous two incidents will become obvious when the theory and practice starts.
Absolutely. She needs to get out there on the skid pan with an instructor and learn to do spinouts on purpose.
Cars are a little bit like computers in that if all you ever do with them is a narrow selection of stuff you've already learned how to do, they keep working well for you but there is a heap of stuff you can trigger by accident if you don't know where all the controls are. The difference is that turning your screen upside down by accidentally hitting ctrl-alt-uparrow can't kill you.
And the fix is the same: learn where all the controls are. Cars have largely gesture-based controls, and finding out what they all do pays off bigtime in safety, skill and confidence.
posted by flabdablet at 3:23 PM on December 5, 2011
Absolutely. She needs to get out there on the skid pan with an instructor and learn to do spinouts on purpose.
Cars are a little bit like computers in that if all you ever do with them is a narrow selection of stuff you've already learned how to do, they keep working well for you but there is a heap of stuff you can trigger by accident if you don't know where all the controls are. The difference is that turning your screen upside down by accidentally hitting ctrl-alt-uparrow can't kill you.
And the fix is the same: learn where all the controls are. Cars have largely gesture-based controls, and finding out what they all do pays off bigtime in safety, skill and confidence.
posted by flabdablet at 3:23 PM on December 5, 2011
Good point, Kirth Gerson.
"Sleep bumps" are among the discouraging words seldom heard where I've lived, and I was foolishly imagining them as mid-road precautionary measures.
posted by jamjam at 3:26 PM on December 5, 2011
"Sleep bumps" are among the discouraging words seldom heard where I've lived, and I was foolishly imagining them as mid-road precautionary measures.
posted by jamjam at 3:26 PM on December 5, 2011
First thing I thought of when I read your post was tires. But it's more complicated than good vs. bad, or new vs. worn. It's important to know that mismatched tires (that is, different type of tires in front than in back) can make a car inherently much less stable. It can change a car's tendency to understeer into a tendency to oversteer, which is harder to correct for an inexperienced driver.
You said that she got new tires. Do you know what her old tires were like? And did she get four new ones, all the same type? If yes, she should be okay now, provided she drives (more) carefully.
posted by Simon Barclay at 6:21 PM on December 5, 2011
You said that she got new tires. Do you know what her old tires were like? And did she get four new ones, all the same type? If yes, she should be okay now, provided she drives (more) carefully.
posted by Simon Barclay at 6:21 PM on December 5, 2011
If she really wants to step up her skills, I recommend an evasive driving course after the defensive driving course. Learning the limits of a vehicle in a safe place has definitely saved me from a couple of nasty accidents.
posted by kamikazegopher at 8:51 PM on December 5, 2011
posted by kamikazegopher at 8:51 PM on December 5, 2011
I drive an '08 civic and had a hydroplaning incident a few weeks ago... I don't know what I can do differently in the future other than just not drive in the rain. I'm not normally a bad driver either - have always considered myself a good driver!! - so I was wondering if anything about the car contributed to it.
Wide tires, speed, weight, and worn tread are factors.
I found this on the internet "According to testing cited by the NTSB, the speed at which hydroplaning can be expected to occur in a vehicle is 10.35 x square root of the tire pressure."
Or put another way, rule of thumb is that you should be ok if you stay under 50mph and your tires are good, but you can get a number slightly more tailored to your car if you want to run the numbers.
posted by -harlequin- at 8:57 PM on December 23, 2011
Wide tires, speed, weight, and worn tread are factors.
I found this on the internet "According to testing cited by the NTSB, the speed at which hydroplaning can be expected to occur in a vehicle is 10.35 x square root of the tire pressure."
Or put another way, rule of thumb is that you should be ok if you stay under 50mph and your tires are good, but you can get a number slightly more tailored to your car if you want to run the numbers.
posted by -harlequin- at 8:57 PM on December 23, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by smitt at 8:54 AM on December 5, 2011 [1 favorite]