Strikeout for the awakwrd guy
November 13, 2011 5:55 PM   Subscribe

This is a follow up to my previous question. Made a move on a girl who I thought had some interest in me. I thought wrong, apparently...

I read all the answers from my previous question and did my best to follow some of the better advice. Things were going pretty well until I actually tried for the kiss! Quick recap so everyone can judge the situation:

The girl(we can call her Lilly for the sake of this post) called me up shortly after my original post went live and asked me to join her at an event after work one night in the coming week. I went, we enjoyed ourselves for the short duration of the event and then went home (This wasn't a date type event though, and neither of us saw it as one, just to be clear). The next day Lilly texted me to say she had fun and that we needed to hang out again soon. I suggested we get together Saturday night, she agreed.

Saturday rolls around and I call her to suggest we could get some dinner, then maybe watch a movie or two, unless she had any better ideas. We end up at a restaurant close to her place so we head back there after we eat. Lilly was her normal fun and rather flirty self like she always has been. So far so good. But, things get start to get confusing soon!

We sit down to watch a film and Lilly made sure to turn out all her lamps etc(movie, check. couch, check. darkness, check.). I sat close to her on the couch and she was sort of sitting in a way that almost faced/leaned into me, she was not sitting in a stiff facing front position. Up until this point I had not tried to be overly flirtatious with her or anything but I moved even closer to her so that our legs were touching. She did not move away or even flinch. Maybe 5 minutes after I moved in super close Lilly says she is going to go brush her teeth, smiles, and then gets up. She sits back down and starts to apply some chap stick. I'm sitting there thinking that I have this in the bag! I wait a little for a good break in the movie and then I try to go in for the kiss. Lilly kind of moved her head back and gave me a look that said, 'Oh, what do we have here?'. I then awkwardly said, "Uh... So do you wanna make out?". Needless to say, she did not want to!

Now I feel like an FAA inspector investigating the wreckage of a plane that just fell out of the sky. What did I do wrong and what can I learn from?

Is she just a flirtatious girl who doesn't realize she could be leading guys on? Am I really that bad at reading body language(how can I improve that?)? Do I need to re-evaluate how I send signs that say 'I'm into you!'? Or is there something else?

As I mentioned in my previous post, I fairly recently got out of a serious relationship. I never had much confidence with women before but now I'm feeling even lower.
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (46 answers total) 9 users marked this as a favorite
What did she say, exactly, when you asked if she wanted to make out? It might be helpful if you could email a mod to let us know...
posted by cider at 5:59 PM on November 13, 2011

Needless to say, she did not want to!

Don't ever say "Wanna make out?" That said, I don't generally think that it is a foregone conclusion that she wouldn't have wanted to kiss you. What did she say?
posted by arnicae at 6:01 PM on November 13, 2011 [10 favorites]

Doesn't mean she is not into you, she might have just been taken by surprise. You hadn't touched her at all except a little leg touching. Next time, do the leg thing and then try putting your hand on her leg or try to hold her hand first. You can generally tell if a girl is into you by their response to the hand-holding. A girl should be comfortable with you touching her before you kiss her, otherwise the kiss seems like too big of a move.

The big question is what you do now, especially now that the situation is awkward for both of you. I'd probably just move for lack of any better ideas, but maybe someone wiser has an answer for you on that one.
posted by banished at 6:05 PM on November 13, 2011 [1 favorite]

move on*
posted by banished at 6:06 PM on November 13, 2011

Your only move now is to play it cool, be your normal, confident self, act like that never happened, and try again next time the two of you are alone together in the dark.
posted by jayder at 6:09 PM on November 13, 2011

Unfortunately, only one person can give you a postmortem (so to speak) on that one. (Maybe "debriefing" is better?) It's her.

For what it's worth, though, you've communicated your interest. You should sheepishly apologize: "Yeah, er... sorry about that." How she reacts to you in the future is going to dictate your course of action. If she acts exactly the same from here on out -- close, flirty, etc -- yeah, you just caught her off guard. Hopefully next time she'll make the move. If she starts pulling back, getting reserved, then move on.

Not that you shouldn't try again, but not without crystal-clear signals. If you try again when she thinks she's made herself clear, you're just a giant creep in her eyes.
posted by supercres at 6:10 PM on November 13, 2011

Oh ... and don't consider that a strikeout. That's strike one.
posted by jayder at 6:10 PM on November 13, 2011 [5 favorites]

It's impossible to know what her motivations or expectations are.

Now is a good time to stop pursuing her. Be warm and friendly, but not pursuing. If she's interested, she has to make the next move.
posted by 26.2 at 6:11 PM on November 13, 2011 [14 favorites]

signals are weird things because they're different for everyone. for instance, putting on chapstick is a no kissing on the horizon signal to me.

having said that, i don't think you can take not fleeing when you put your leg against her's and sitting comfortably as "leading you on."
posted by nadawi at 6:12 PM on November 13, 2011 [1 favorite]

She was clearly not looking for a casual, friendly hookup, whether or not your friends were correct that she seemed into you, and you are clearly not looking for a potential relationship that's more significant than a casual hookup - if that's what she's looking for, which may not be the case at all. Nothing else really matters. People aren't video games, there's not a strategy guide.

For what it's worth, I have had people say "Wanna make out?" to me and said it to other people, and it's led to hookups. People aren't video games. And for fuck's sake, no, don't pursue her after she's turned you directly. That's not respectful to her or yourself.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 6:14 PM on November 13, 2011 [1 favorite]

Close-sitting in the dark watching a movie after a dinner date, with freshly brushed teeth and freshly balmed lips doesn't just obliviously HAPPEN to someone, male or female. It's possible she's playing games with you, or else really really deluded about what her own intentions are. Or is she religious? But clumsy out-making question aside, it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong or acted out of turn.
posted by hermitosis at 6:14 PM on November 13, 2011 [29 favorites]

uhg, that sucks, sorry dude.

what woman would not know that those are signs? i think most women, if they are not into a guy, would purposefully avoid sitting close on the couch, brushing teeth, sitting close on the couch again after coming back, applying chapstick; and all that after dinner, and a previous night hanging out, laughing.

Is she just a flirtatious girl who doesn't realize she could be leading guys on?

maybe she gets off on the power of it all. if she is really into you, it's her responsibility to bring it up. you do need to take a big step back at this point, and not hang out with her for a while.

as far as signals, i think the only thing you could have done differently would be to ask her if she's into it before going in for a kiss.
posted by cupcake1337 at 6:14 PM on November 13, 2011 [5 favorites]

Is she just a flirtatious girl who doesn't realize she could be leading guys on? Am I really that bad at reading body language(how can I improve that?)? Do I need to re-evaluate how I send signs that say 'I'm into you!'? Or is there something else?

How should we know? All of these things are possible.

But here's another possibility: maybe nobody did anything wrong.

If you're an awkward dude and you get rejected, it's easy to feel like you were rejected because you were awkward — like if only you were properly smooth, you'd never get turned down by anyone, and you'd just magically know who wanted to make out with you at any given moment. But that's BS. The smoothest guys in the world get turned down all the time.

It's also easy to feel like, "She led me on! She should have made it clearer that she wasn't interested." But even the clearest and most up-front and straightforward women in the world still sometimes end up giving a guy the wrong idea. Different people have different ideas about what counts as flirting or as an invitation or whatever.

So basically this mixup seems totally normal to me, and it doesn't have to mean that there's anything wrong with either of you.

I'm sure you'll still get plenty of replies saying "Clearly you're a moron" or "Clearly she's a bitch" or "Clearly she would have kissed you if you'd done X instead." But that's all bound to be speculation, since we don't know either of you and we weren't there.
posted by nebulawindphone at 6:19 PM on November 13, 2011 [30 favorites]

Eek. Don't *ever* say "do you wanna make out?" I don't know how to state this, but I just get a horrible reaction to the prospect of a guy saying that to me... no matter how into him I am. It may not be a turn off for all women, but it sure is for me!

So who knows, because from the other things you mentioned, it sure sounds like she likes you. Or maybe she's just a friendly girl who doesn't know how to pull back. Also... were you drinking at dinner? I get more flirty when I drink.

As far as what to do now... just play it cool. If you play it cool, she'll feel comfortable and not all freaked out around you, which is important for both your friendship and any future shot you have with her.
posted by DoubleLune at 6:19 PM on November 13, 2011 [5 favorites]

also, what exactly did she say or do after she turned you down?
posted by cupcake1337 at 6:19 PM on November 13, 2011

"Uh... So do you wanna make out?". Needless to say, she did not want to!

Probably because she didn't want to make out with a 12-year-old.

Come on, dude - try again. Slightly smoother next time. Slightly less - I'm bored, let's stick our tongues in each other's mouths.
posted by mleigh at 6:21 PM on November 13, 2011 [12 favorites]

Maybe she was into you but you moved a little fast? A kiss seems a bit intimate if you haven't even held hands. If I were her, I would have cut you off to because I would worry that by beginning physical intimacy so quickly you would also escalate it too fast as well and be unzipping your pants as you shoved your tongue down my throat.

Also, did you ask her out on a date? With the actual words "date" spoken out loud. If she thought you were friends and just hanging out for a movie after dinner (which is something I do with my friends) how was she supposed to know you were interested? FWIW, her behaviour did not come across as flirty to me as described.
posted by saucysault at 6:23 PM on November 13, 2011 [2 favorites]

If anything, your mistake was asking "Do you wanna make out?" after you already knew the answer. She already recoiled. That would be the time to slow down and gentlemanly apologize for being a bit forward. At that point (or at the point you're currently at), she will take the lead if she's into you.
posted by supercres at 6:25 PM on November 13, 2011 [1 favorite]

I think you view yourself as an awkward guy and that can be off putting to a lot of women. (I know lots of women talk about loving adorable, geeky, awkward "boys" but if you're talking about odds, someone who acts like a confident man stands a better chance with a woman than someone wallowing in his own awkwardness.) So I think you potentially hurt yourself by acting like a supplicant who would be so lucky as to get a kiss from her. Stop acting awkward. Stop acting like a supplicant. Stop accepting her flirty games if they continue. Play it cool, try again, but move on soon if things don't progress. Your time is better spent with women who aren't playing games.
posted by jayder at 6:26 PM on November 13, 2011 [2 favorites]

But here's another possibility: maybe nobody did anything wrong

I agree with this. "So do you want to make out" was a kind of awkward, but it sounds like she wasn't really into it anyways.

If I had been in your position I probably would have done pretty much the same thing. It just sucks for you that she wasn't into it. Have no regrets, you did fine.
posted by auto-correct at 6:27 PM on November 13, 2011

I wouldn't take anything from this experience. It's just one moment and one data point in your life. You don't have enough data to draw conclusions about what works for you and doesn't.

(Of course, don't make another move on this girl. You did and got shot down. Even if she could potentially be interested, the odds are better that she isn't, and the ball is clearly in her court now.)
posted by J. Wilson at 6:30 PM on November 13, 2011 [2 favorites]

Lilly says she is going to go brush her teeth

Perhaps this was a gentle suggestion. What did you have for dinner?

Or she could have just gotten cold feet. I think we've all done that- liked someone, gone out with them, maybe even a few times but when it came down to it a kiss you suddenly realize you're not actually into them that way. I've never done that on purpose but it's happened. It's chemistry I guess.
posted by fshgrl at 6:38 PM on November 13, 2011 [2 favorites]

Unless she immediately kicked you out of her apartment, I think you're catastrophizing. She liked you. She probably still likes you. You just caught her off guard when you said that dumb thing- she was romancing you, and you killed the mood! Call her again, see how things go, and good grief, don't say anything like that again.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:41 PM on November 13, 2011

for instance, putting on chapstick is a no kissing on the horizon signal to me.

Yes, totally. Is there anything less erotic than the scent, taste, and texture of chapstick? (I know, I know, different strokes, different folks...)

But here's another possibility: maybe nobody did anything wrong

This. People (as you can tell from reading the answers here) have all kinds of different signals, and different ideas about what works and what doesn't. Is chapstick a signal of kissing, or of not kissing? Is asking "Wanna makeout?" sexy or a mood-killer?

If I had to guess, though, you guys were both on the way to the same destination, but you were driving way too fast. In my world (which is definitely not the ultra smooth mover world), there are usually a few steps between sitting together on the couch and going for the full-on make-out session. You know, things like leg-touching, snuggling together, all those small little moves that allow both of you to check that there is mutual interest without risking much in the way of rejection.

If you guys hang out again, I'd suggest taking things much slower, and look for reciprocity at each step before continuing. At this point she knows you are interested; don't make any big production or big awkward apologies.
posted by Forktine at 6:49 PM on November 13, 2011 [1 favorite]

I'm going to say BS to this "try again, just be more smooth next time!!!!!"

Yeah it was a sort of weird to just say "want to make out" instead of going for it, but that is SO easy to recover from - she could have made a flirty joke and kept the moment going, or even just shrugged and (equally awkwardly) been like "um, yeah." But basically if she really wanted to kiss you I think she would have kissed you.

If she seriously wanted you to kiss her the entire night and you killed the entire moment with one single stupid line then that is idiotic on her part. I say move on, and move on with the notion that YOU were the one who gave HER a shot and she turned it down.
posted by windbox at 6:49 PM on November 13, 2011 [26 favorites]

I think you have a clear expression of non-interest here. If a guy I liked used a lame line like "You wanna make out?" on me -- and some have -- you know what I would do? I'd laugh and tease him for that line and then I'd lean in and kiss him anyway.

If you try to kiss her again after she has turned you down, you're moving into creep territory, in my opinion. (I'm female, for the record, and if a male friend whose kiss I explicitly ducked tried at a later date to kiss me again, that would end our friendship, because I would start to feel uncertain that he respected my wishes and cared for my consent and my comfort.)

Also, if it's still bothering you that her signals seemed so mixed, then keep in mind that it's entirely possible that she, not you, might be the awkward one here. That is, she might not know how to communicate disinterest in a guy; "meaninglessly flirty" may just be her standard mode of interaction with the opposite sex (which can be awkward precisely because it leads to the kind of confusion you are experiencing right now).
posted by artemisia at 7:20 PM on November 13, 2011 [21 favorites]

I'm going to disagree with everyone saying "try again." you went in for a kiss, she pulled away. It's not clear what happened after that but I'm assuming there was a bit more conversation after you asked if she wanted to make out. Did you guys discuss the situation further?

I've had problems in the past with enjoying a guy's attention without really realizing what was behind it, or with not knowing how to express disinterest when no verbal offer was on the table.

However, there have been times when the first attempt at a kiss made me pull back instinctively, but later I did arrange to get together with the guy in question and kiss him. I'd leave the ball in her court.

Also, as mentioned above, light touching before the kiss is essential.
posted by bunderful at 7:28 PM on November 13, 2011 [1 favorite]

Don't feel bad - it sounds confusing to me, too, and I'm a girl. But definitely don't push her anymore - like artemisia says, if she were kind of into the idea of kissing you, but thought the line was corny (I think the line is corny) this shouldn't have been a giant issue.

You probably ought to devote some more effort into cultivating your friend-level relationships with other young ladies. In your last question you said your friends were pushing you to try something with Lilly - find one or two to go over this incident with (ones you can trust to be discreet, please.) They have a great many more data points re: how you are with girls and specific things you can do better than any of us do.
posted by SMPA at 7:30 PM on November 13, 2011 [2 favorites]

OK, I know I am not really qualified to give dating advice. But when I read in your description that she got up and went to brush her teeth, I thought that would be the point where you realized she's not interested. If I wanted to kiss someone, and they moved in so we were touching, I wouldn't decide it was a good time to get up and walk away. On the other hand, if I was getting uncomfortable, needing to brush my teeth might be as good an unsexy excuse as any.
posted by chickenmagazine at 7:41 PM on November 13, 2011 [2 favorites]

But when I read in your description that she got up and went to brush her teeth, I thought that would be the point where you realized she's not interested.

Just to show you how reasonable people can disagree about this stuff, I might have concluded that was a sign she WAS interested ... y'know, "I've got food in my teeth, I need to brush my teeth before we have make-out time." I mean, I've never been hanging with a mere friend and had them get up in the middle of a movie and say "I think I'll brush my teeth." Seems like freshening up before making out, to me!
posted by jayder at 8:01 PM on November 13, 2011 [10 favorites]

I moved in super close Lilly says she is going to go brush her teeth, smiles, and then gets up. She sits back down ...

i read that as she sat down where she originally was. if so, that would be a good sign, but if she sat further away from him, that would be a bad sign.
posted by cupcake1337 at 8:22 PM on November 13, 2011 [1 favorite]

"Is she just a flirtatious girl who doesn't realize she could be leading guys on? Am I really that bad at reading body language(how can I improve that?)? Do I need to re-evaluate how I send signs that say 'I'm into you!'? Or is there something else?"

I'd say the only sure way to answer the first of these is just to talk to her frankly about the situation and get verbal confirmation. I might start by saying something like "hey, sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable the other night" and in the absence of some sort of response which makes the situation immediately clear I'd proceed along the lines of "I'm interested in having a [type of relationship] with you, and thought it seemed like you might be interested in the same." Though you know, more conversational and less declarative than I use here for explanation.

I would say you may need to re-evaluate how you send signs. Using progressively increasing proximity and the following responses is a good plan, in your story I'd read her getting up five minutes after you moved in "super close" as a neutral to negative sign that you'd ever get any closer depending on how she sat back down -- it was a good move but you needed at least one intervening step from there in any case. Short of you two being just on the verge of exploding into sex, and even then, it definitely would've been good form to have another step of escalation such as putting an arm around her, playing with her hand, "accidentally" grazing a knee or elbow, etc. Gradually moving toward kissing gives her some time to figure out what's on your mind if that's not where her head is already at so there's some chance of preemption before that awkward attempted kiss moment.

Go talk to her, no solving this with body language now though.
posted by Matt Oneiros at 8:26 PM on November 13, 2011 [1 favorite]

When I first read this question, without being familiar with the original question, I thought she was just messing with you or leading you on. However, I just read the last question and it seems kind of clear that this girl only thought of you as a friend, someone she feels completely comfortable blithely asking out for dinner and a movie without the risk of anything physical happening.

I'm actually kind of wondering if she thought you were gay- someone she felt safe to be all girly and flirtatious around without the risk of anything happening. That is kind of what her behavior sounds like to me, right down to where, when you moved in closer to her on the couch, she didn't seem to think you were actually trying to make a move on her, and then she was still confused when you tried to kiss her.

What isn't clear is whether or not you ever really thought she was attracted to you - only that your friends kind of pushed you into this, and you kind of just wanted to casually make out with somebody. I would suggest you stop listening to these friends' romantic advice.

While not claiming to speak for all women, I think it would be safe to assume that if a girl is repeatedly asking you out to friendly activities without any romantic overtones - as you did say these activities never had - she thinks of you as a friend and not a romantic interest.
posted by wondermouse at 8:59 PM on November 13, 2011

I've been that flirtatious girl who doesn't get what's going on. I'll spare you the horror stories.

1. I don't mean to be flirtatious - that's just me. I can crank the dial up to 11, but people mistake my intentions at a 5. It was hard for me to get how other people misinterpreted me, because my 'I LIKE YOU' signals are an order of magnitude stronger than my 'hey friend, let's have fun' signals. My tell is touch. If I'm touching you (purposefully, with my hand, not my accident), or happy about you touching me, and not avoiding you, it's for reals. If there's no touch, I'm just being me. This girl just seems friendly-nice to me - sitting to face you is not a signal. There really needs to be some touching to set the stage for the kiss. Hug her, get in her personal space more than normal, touch her hair - see how she reacts. If she backs off, smacks your hand, doesn't reciprocate - even if she's laughing - these are not good makeout signals.

(Is she leading you on? No idea. If she seems like an otherwise good person, I highly doubt it.)

2. Like everybody else here, this isn't necessarily a crash and burn. The bottom line is to be honest and unashamed about yourself and your intentions with her before you end up sitting on a couch in a dark room with a movie playing. If she doesn't go for it, it's still a useful thing to know when you approach other girls. Seriously, don't let this get you down.
posted by griselda at 9:26 PM on November 13, 2011

I once kissed a guy in mid sentence and he continued on as if I hadn't.

Almost ten years ago I said, "You wanna kiss me?" to a guy. That guy is now my husband.

Que sera sera.
posted by it's a long way to south america at 10:19 PM on November 13, 2011 [1 favorite]

I think it sounds like there were a lot of mixed signals...I could see that someone getting up to brush her teeth and apply chapstick might actually suggest she was into kissing you - or that she wasn't. But I think your "You wanna make out line" is awkward (kinda icky) and also potentially a lot of pressure. If she's not really someone who moves from a kiss to making out, that's a big request. I mean, she might have wanted a little time to process that. Also, depending on where she's from "make out" could mean a lot of things and she might have felt like you were pressuring her to do stuff she wasn't cool with at the time. Or that you were looking for a meaningless hookup when she wasn't. I think something like, "I really like you" or "You look really pretty tonight" would be a little smoother and less pushy (even if you weren't meaning to be pushy).
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 10:26 PM on November 13, 2011

For me, when you start to move in and she smiles, offers an excuse, and leaves the room, I would back way off until she gave me a clear indication that she was actually interested. People who want to make out with each other don't generally flee once knees and arms start touching.

She didn't necessarily give you any clear boundaries, so I don't think you acted inappropriately. You may find it useful, however, to use as a rule of thumb the idea that as soon as anything gives you the sense that she's not interested, it's time to let her take the lead or let nothing happen.

It's not universally applicable, but generally speaking women are pretty clear on whether you find them attractive once you start flirting with them. Most of them have been dealing with advances longer than you've been offering any. A gentle rebuff of your offer rarely means she didn't understand it; it usually means she likes you and wants to let you down easy.

I have found some variant of "I'd like to kiss you now" to be useful in situations where you haven't gotten any no signals but are maybe unclear on the yes signals. It has the advantage of talking about you, not her; communicating your intentions specially; and allowing her to consent or not openly. Sometimes people find that unromantic, but oh well. This can be mitigated by speaking in a low voice at night while both of you can hear rain on a window or roof, or the pavement if it is sufficiently humid (the steam, you see). But, as ever, there aren't any rules except those of respect. Good luck.
posted by Errant at 11:09 PM on November 13, 2011 [1 favorite]

If you try to kiss her again after she has turned you down, you're moving into creep territory, in my opinion.

I'm a dude, but 100% on this.

and try again next time the two of you are alone together in the dark.

And 0% on that.

And +1 on not making it awkward when next you meet. A big, confident smile, a "sorry about that... I just find you too darn attractive; it won't happen again" should be fine. If she's into you, she'll probably think rats, I'll have to fix this, and if she's not, your friendship should be salvaged without her thinking you're a creeper.

(Although a warning about the latter situation: if you continue to be romantically interested even after it's clear there's no hope, please do cut bait. That does nobody good.)
posted by Talisman at 11:17 PM on November 13, 2011 [4 favorites]

Your first post about this girl (which you link back to) says your friends thought she was into you and you're just looking for casual hookups with her anyway. So it seems nothing more than your friends were wrong, no need for a post-mortem.

Everyone is giving you advice as though you're the awkward virginal guy who doesn't know how to act around women, when that's not the case. You said you've just come out of a relationship and don't want to get serious, so don't start getting serious about this girl just because she didn't react the way you thought she would. There are plenty of girls out there who want what you want. Go find them.
posted by headnsouth at 4:21 AM on November 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Oh.....yeah, that's awkward.

The trickiest thing about dating or hooking up these days is that nobody actually wants to say anything about it out loud. It's like money --- we'll bitch about how we never have enough, but when someone asks how much we do have, it's like they've just slapped our mother.

In a romantic setting (couch, dark, movie, chapstick....) actually saying what you're thinking is like opening a can of cat food and offering her a bite. Total mood killer. Speak with your moves, your eyes, even your lips -- just please god, not your vocal cords.

It sounds like she's into you but that the blatant verbalization of your intentions turned her off. Not necessarily because she wants a "relationship" as opposed to a hook up, but because it called her out, and that's really awkward for anybody. Regardless of whether she's into you to date or to casually hook up with, you can fix this by apologizing for being awkward and backing off to let her make the next move. (She obviously knows where you stand.)
posted by motsque at 4:59 AM on November 14, 2011

What did I do wrong and what can I learn from?

It doesn't sound to me like you did anything wrong (although the "wanna make out" line wouldn't have bothered me if I did in fact want to make out, and apparently it would bother other people). From my vantage point you interpreted everything reasonably. I guess this is just one of those times that couldn't have been predicted beforehand.

The only other thing I see to point out:

Lilly says she is going to go brush her teeth
fshgrl: Perhaps this was a gentle suggestion. What did you have for dinner?

I think there's limited value in overthinking it now, but this could definitely have been a possibility. And even if your breath wasn't bad per se, maybe this girl just doesn't like making out unless both people have freshly brushed their teeth.

Either way, I think now the ball's in her court to make another move.
posted by cairdeas at 5:03 AM on November 14, 2011

if a male friend whose kiss I explicitly ducked tried at a later date to kiss me again, that would end our friendship, because I would start to feel uncertain that he respected my wishes and cared for my consent and my comfort.

Yes, speaking personally, if this happened twice, there wouldn't be a third hangout. I don't think I would get so far in my mind as "he doesn't respect my wishes" although that's certainly valid; I'd just be thinking, "Argh, I'll have to spend the entire time awkwardly maneuvering and avoiding his advances, or deliver an explicit rejection." Too much for something that to most people would be clear after the first time.
posted by cairdeas at 5:16 AM on November 14, 2011 [5 favorites]

The more I think about this question, the more I think how silly it is for us all to sit around dissecting her motives and desires like we are conducting high-level international diplomacy.

Bottom line: you've made your intentions clear, do you really want to invest more time in figuring out the thoughts of a woman who plays these games? I agree with the people who say "ball's in her court."

And if you are fixated on her to the extent that you're reluctant to move on, that may be your problem. Lots of women aren't attracted to guys who seem desperate, they prefer guys with options.
posted by jayder at 6:13 AM on November 14, 2011

"...leading guys on..." is a bad take on things and assumes the fault was hers and not yours. Regardless, you may potentially salvage things by apologizing over lunch and say some of the things you said here, minus accusations about what she projected. There is nothing wrong in flirting with friends and she could be cool with that as long as you both make mutually agreeable boundaries.

Obviously in situations like yours, it is easy to destroy the mood and say something stupid which is why it is very important to keep cool and be prepared with a back-up plan so you don't crash and can come in for a smooth landing instead.

If you are uncomfortable with the friend zone and have an unhealthy fixation with pushing the boundaries then you probably should scale back your friendship and keep it entirely on a platonic level.
posted by JJ86 at 6:37 AM on November 14, 2011

You should have just spoken with her and been more direct in the first place considering what you were going for. Maybe not as direct as I said in the previous thread. Maybe that's only something that works for me considering the resounding negative response. But, I just can't believe how many people were in support of the elaborate setup for hooking-up in guise as 'just a friend' in the first place or how so many are in support of basically try try again until she screams at you.

What you did before was already sort of creepy, trying again would be a true a-hole move. There are plenty of women out there that want to just hookup and not be your anything else. Go find one of them and leave your 'friend' alone.
posted by zephyr_words at 6:48 AM on November 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

Ohhhhhhh, well, I was a late bloomer when it came to the opposite sex department.
And this is exactly how it went down for me. Clarification - I was the girl.

It was a month or two of hanging around with a sweet boy constantly. We were both socially awkward.

We were sitting on the couch watching some shitty movie (Polly, i believe), when he said, "Uh, can I kiss you?"
And I said, "No"

I said no because I was nervous. Eventually, a couple of days later after thinking it over, I kissed him.

So, I don't know if my story is relevant here (are you two young-ish? Has she been in relationships before? Do you think maybe she is someone that would want to be "in control" of the situation?) but thought you might want to consider this perspective.

Also, I disagree with others, I think "uh... do you wanna make out?" is cute as long as it's someone you're comfortable with and not a first date/stranger.
posted by KogeLiz at 9:04 AM on November 14, 2011

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