Latin, should we teach it to our son?
November 9, 2011 4:06 PM Subscribe
How useful is it to learn Latin?
My Husband and I were having a discussion and this came up. We are wondering if we should teach, our three month old, who we plan to home school, Latin. I say yes, because it would give him a basis in languages outside of the English Language. Also it might help him if he were to decide to work in the medical/scientific profession. My Husband disagrees and believes that is it mostly useless. Please give your advice/experience on both sides of the coin.
My Husband and I were having a discussion and this came up. We are wondering if we should teach, our three month old, who we plan to home school, Latin. I say yes, because it would give him a basis in languages outside of the English Language. Also it might help him if he were to decide to work in the medical/scientific profession. My Husband disagrees and believes that is it mostly useless. Please give your advice/experience on both sides of the coin.
Having taking many years of Latin, teach your kid a living language instead.
Latin is great if you plan on working with language in some way but most of the utility is in reading and writing. Learning the native pronunciation of a spoken foreign language only really happens when you're young.
posted by 2bucksplus at 4:11 PM on November 9, 2011
Latin is great if you plan on working with language in some way but most of the utility is in reading and writing. Learning the native pronunciation of a spoken foreign language only really happens when you're young.
posted by 2bucksplus at 4:11 PM on November 9, 2011
I studied Latin (as an adult, pursuant to a degree in Medieval History, which is useless...) it improved my comprehension of English grammar and expanded my already strong vocabulary. its a structured discipline, which is a good 'template' as it were, to acquire, intellectually and in general. and the poetry is beautiful :)
posted by supermedusa at 4:12 PM on November 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by supermedusa at 4:12 PM on November 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I took Latin in college and high school. My grammar and word-meaning inference skills are awesome. But otherwise it has proved pretty useless. Teach him Chinese or Spanish.
posted by phunniemee at 4:13 PM on November 9, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 4:13 PM on November 9, 2011 [4 favorites]
I guess my point being, w/r/t other comments, Latin is peripherally useful but not pragmatically useful, as a second language choice. I would far rather be fluent in Spanish, or Japanese, re day to day life.
posted by supermedusa at 4:13 PM on November 9, 2011
posted by supermedusa at 4:13 PM on November 9, 2011
Latin roots and romantic conjugation are quite useful to know, but Latin in and of itself is not going to get used very often. Besides, who's he going to practice with? Teach him French or Spanish instead.
posted by Gilbert at 4:15 PM on November 9, 2011
posted by Gilbert at 4:15 PM on November 9, 2011
I had four years of Latin in grade school. It was mostly useless. Sure, it might have helped with building my vocabulary and with learning other languages, but so would have Spanish, Italian or French. I forgot it all by the time I would have been in med school, had I gone.
posted by hydrophonic at 4:15 PM on November 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by hydrophonic at 4:15 PM on November 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: In high school and college, I took five years of Latin, five years of Ancient Greek, five years of French, two or three years of German, and one year of Spanish. It was great fun, and, you're right--having studied Latin was a great help in learning French and Spanish. It also was valuable in developing my understanding of languages generally, greatly embiggened my English vocabulary, and has been useful to me as a lawyer (but not your lawyer).
However, I really don't think it's necessary, and there are much higher returns to be had with other subjects. Indeed, your argument that it would be helpful with other Romance languages proves too much--any of the Romance languages is as good as another (IMO) as an entree into the rest, and your child will be much better served to have mastered, say, Spanish as a child and then picked up French/Italian/Portuguese (or even Latin) later than to have mastered Latin first.
My experiences having learned Latin are rare, and there are many, many doctors and lawyers who encounter Latin words daily without a grounding in the language. Would that our success as doctors and lawyers were proportional to our study of Greek and Latin. It may have been once, but no longer.
O tempora o mores!
posted by Admiral Haddock at 4:17 PM on November 9, 2011 [3 favorites]
However, I really don't think it's necessary, and there are much higher returns to be had with other subjects. Indeed, your argument that it would be helpful with other Romance languages proves too much--any of the Romance languages is as good as another (IMO) as an entree into the rest, and your child will be much better served to have mastered, say, Spanish as a child and then picked up French/Italian/Portuguese (or even Latin) later than to have mastered Latin first.
My experiences having learned Latin are rare, and there are many, many doctors and lawyers who encounter Latin words daily without a grounding in the language. Would that our success as doctors and lawyers were proportional to our study of Greek and Latin. It may have been once, but no longer.
O tempora o mores!
posted by Admiral Haddock at 4:17 PM on November 9, 2011 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I majored in Latin and I loved it. Latin forces you to learn grammar and sentence construction in a way that later languages don't especially. It forces you to think critically about language and its use, and about how language intersects (or doesn't) with the world it is trying to describe. As you know, Latin is the root language of many languages still spoken today.
Latin pays dividends in other disciplines, too, like History and English. If you're reading Latin literature, you're reading some of the bedrock texts of our civilization. Familiarity with these texts will give your child a leg up in reading just about anything written in English, especially anything written before (say) 1950, because until the decline of classical education, writers would make reference to classical works.
As to whether Latin is "useful" in the economic sense that I feel like your husband means it, it seems like you might have to have a broader conversation about the value of primary and secondary education and the liberal arts. The "usefulness" critique can be levied against a lot of disciplines. I'm of the opinion that your child will have his whole life to learn how to be useful, and that a broad education is one of the great gifts you can give him. He can grow up to be an actuary just as easily with Latin as without.
posted by gauche at 4:19 PM on November 9, 2011 [8 favorites]
Latin pays dividends in other disciplines, too, like History and English. If you're reading Latin literature, you're reading some of the bedrock texts of our civilization. Familiarity with these texts will give your child a leg up in reading just about anything written in English, especially anything written before (say) 1950, because until the decline of classical education, writers would make reference to classical works.
As to whether Latin is "useful" in the economic sense that I feel like your husband means it, it seems like you might have to have a broader conversation about the value of primary and secondary education and the liberal arts. The "usefulness" critique can be levied against a lot of disciplines. I'm of the opinion that your child will have his whole life to learn how to be useful, and that a broad education is one of the great gifts you can give him. He can grow up to be an actuary just as easily with Latin as without.
posted by gauche at 4:19 PM on November 9, 2011 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I'm with your husband on this.
I was taught Latin in school, and given all the "medical/scientific" justifications. In the many years since then, the utility of what I learned then has been pretty close to zilch.
In reality, Latin is only of utility in the biological sciences, and I suspect it's a fair bet you could get by just fine without it these days. There are many areas of science where Latin is not useful at all. If your child develops an interest in biology, then will be the time to consider Latin.
Teach your kid a living language, preferably one that he will have opportunities to talk to people with, because nothing teaches language like conversation.
There are many, many useful things to learn in life. I regret the time spent learning useless baggage.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 4:20 PM on November 9, 2011 [2 favorites]
I was taught Latin in school, and given all the "medical/scientific" justifications. In the many years since then, the utility of what I learned then has been pretty close to zilch.
In reality, Latin is only of utility in the biological sciences, and I suspect it's a fair bet you could get by just fine without it these days. There are many areas of science where Latin is not useful at all. If your child develops an interest in biology, then will be the time to consider Latin.
Teach your kid a living language, preferably one that he will have opportunities to talk to people with, because nothing teaches language like conversation.
There are many, many useful things to learn in life. I regret the time spent learning useless baggage.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 4:20 PM on November 9, 2011 [2 favorites]
The two arguments you advanced in favor of Latin are common misconceptions.
Medical terminology and the general stock of Latinate words have filtered into English from vulgar Latin and medieval Latin, so having learned classical Latin doesn't suddenly open a door to enlightenment.
A much better way to learn Latinate vocabulary is to cultivate a love of reading, reading broadly from different decades and centuries. The trove of Latin words was amassed gradually and grew organically, and an understanding of it grows in the same manner.
Learning Latin to support learning a second foreign language is a remarkably inefficient way to learn a foreign language.
But really, why shouldn't you teach your child Latin? The very simple fact is that, unless a foreign language is for some reason a major part of your child's life (if you're living abroad, for example), your child is very unlikely to acquire anything beyond a passive knowledge of it. Think of how many children take a foreign language in school and how many go on to master it and use it in daily life. More than anything else, it's an academic exercise.
On the other hand, studying a foreign language really opens the mind up to new ideas. The first idea is that English isn't the only language and that many people speak languages wildly different from English. Another idea is that languages can be richly complex and take years to master.
Those ideas alone should give your child a better appreciation for the lives of people around the world.
posted by Nomyte at 4:23 PM on November 9, 2011
Medical terminology and the general stock of Latinate words have filtered into English from vulgar Latin and medieval Latin, so having learned classical Latin doesn't suddenly open a door to enlightenment.
A much better way to learn Latinate vocabulary is to cultivate a love of reading, reading broadly from different decades and centuries. The trove of Latin words was amassed gradually and grew organically, and an understanding of it grows in the same manner.
Learning Latin to support learning a second foreign language is a remarkably inefficient way to learn a foreign language.
But really, why shouldn't you teach your child Latin? The very simple fact is that, unless a foreign language is for some reason a major part of your child's life (if you're living abroad, for example), your child is very unlikely to acquire anything beyond a passive knowledge of it. Think of how many children take a foreign language in school and how many go on to master it and use it in daily life. More than anything else, it's an academic exercise.
On the other hand, studying a foreign language really opens the mind up to new ideas. The first idea is that English isn't the only language and that many people speak languages wildly different from English. Another idea is that languages can be richly complex and take years to master.
Those ideas alone should give your child a better appreciation for the lives of people around the world.
posted by Nomyte at 4:23 PM on November 9, 2011
Studying any foreign language will "give him a basis in languages outside of the English language"--if by that you mean you want him to have experience.
But there is something about that wording that makes me wonder if you aren't suffering from the same conception that many do: That Latin is, somehow, a more platonic form of language than others, and that if you study it you will gain some special insight about language in general that can't be had by studying anything else. This is untrue, and is just a cultural leftover from the days when we didn't know much about the science of language, and put Latin up on a pedestal as a result.
For example, a lot of people will tell you that learning Latin grammar is illuminating, but this is true of learning almost any foreign language. (People who claim this are often thinking of its case system, which forces you to think about grammatical roles, but there are living languages with similar case systems, like Russian, and there are languages with even more cases, like Finnish. There are also languages that mark grammatical roles in even more foreign-to-us ways, which could be considered more illuminating than learning something as homey as Latin.) Some people will claim that knowing Latin is helpful when studying a romance language--this is true to some extent, but if you just want to know a romance language, learning two languages is still more work than learning just one.
Latin has had a big influence on our culture, and can certainly be rewarding to learn, but if you want something with practical benefits, a dead language is not the best choice.
The upside to learning a dead language is that it is very hard for a child to acquire speaking ability in a second language unless they live in an environment where it is a huge part of their life. If you decide to teach your child Spanish, then unless you're in special circumstances (one of you speaks Spanish exclusively to the child, you send the child to a Spanish-language school), they probably won't learn to speak it. Being able to read and write in the language is much easier. If they learn a language that no one speaks anymore, then they might not feel like it's so much wasted time when they can't speak it anyway.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:32 PM on November 9, 2011 [3 favorites]
But there is something about that wording that makes me wonder if you aren't suffering from the same conception that many do: That Latin is, somehow, a more platonic form of language than others, and that if you study it you will gain some special insight about language in general that can't be had by studying anything else. This is untrue, and is just a cultural leftover from the days when we didn't know much about the science of language, and put Latin up on a pedestal as a result.
For example, a lot of people will tell you that learning Latin grammar is illuminating, but this is true of learning almost any foreign language. (People who claim this are often thinking of its case system, which forces you to think about grammatical roles, but there are living languages with similar case systems, like Russian, and there are languages with even more cases, like Finnish. There are also languages that mark grammatical roles in even more foreign-to-us ways, which could be considered more illuminating than learning something as homey as Latin.) Some people will claim that knowing Latin is helpful when studying a romance language--this is true to some extent, but if you just want to know a romance language, learning two languages is still more work than learning just one.
Latin has had a big influence on our culture, and can certainly be rewarding to learn, but if you want something with practical benefits, a dead language is not the best choice.
The upside to learning a dead language is that it is very hard for a child to acquire speaking ability in a second language unless they live in an environment where it is a huge part of their life. If you decide to teach your child Spanish, then unless you're in special circumstances (one of you speaks Spanish exclusively to the child, you send the child to a Spanish-language school), they probably won't learn to speak it. Being able to read and write in the language is much easier. If they learn a language that no one speaks anymore, then they might not feel like it's so much wasted time when they can't speak it anyway.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:32 PM on November 9, 2011 [3 favorites]
In terms of sheer economic value, I'd learn a language from one of the rising stars of the developing world--aka BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India, China)--Portuguese, Russian, Hindi, Chinese. I loved taking Italian, but other than for travel, it's nowhere near as useful as my Chinese language skills have proven to be.
Also, it's my experience that Romance languages are pretty easy for English speakers, so you wouldn't really need to go the Latin route. Even with my now dead Italian, I can take a pretty good guess at French/Spanish/Italian.
Of course, you could always go the European route. Why not teach him Spanish AND Chinese? Most of the Europeans I've known speak at least 3 languages: their own, another European language, and English.
posted by so much modern time at 4:35 PM on November 9, 2011
Also, it's my experience that Romance languages are pretty easy for English speakers, so you wouldn't really need to go the Latin route. Even with my now dead Italian, I can take a pretty good guess at French/Spanish/Italian.
Of course, you could always go the European route. Why not teach him Spanish AND Chinese? Most of the Europeans I've known speak at least 3 languages: their own, another European language, and English.
posted by so much modern time at 4:35 PM on November 9, 2011
Best answer: I took two years of required Latin in 7th and 8th grade and liked it so much I continued with it as an elective course alongside Spanish through high school. To be fair, my Latin teacher was my favorite teacher and a real hero in terms of encouraging a love of learning and a distaste for conformity (big up Phil Schwartz, I can never thank you enough). I found that learning Latin really helped with my grasp of english grammar and vocabulary and made it easier for me to be at least vaguely understandable in the romance languages. It also spurred an interest in history and philosophy (especially the history and philosophy of science) that has served me in good stead. I would imagine if your child was going to be interested in medicine/science/law she or he can pick up the Latin they might need as they go along.
There are quite a few more practical things you could teach your kids, for sure, but I have experienced benefits from my study of Latin far in excess of the time that I spent learning it. This is just a data point. Home school your kid not to take loans for college.
posted by Divine_Wino at 4:35 PM on November 9, 2011 [3 favorites]
There are quite a few more practical things you could teach your kids, for sure, but I have experienced benefits from my study of Latin far in excess of the time that I spent learning it. This is just a data point. Home school your kid not to take loans for college.
posted by Divine_Wino at 4:35 PM on November 9, 2011 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: I am currently reading through everyone's response with my Husband. We really appreciate all of the input.
He is saying that, since I will be the primary person educating our son, that if it is important to me and I feel like it would be nice to learn Latin myself, since I don't know it yet, that I should do it. Reason being that we need to keep the toil of homeschooling fun for us, so that we engage more easily with the child and continue to work hard at it.
I am leaning more towards abandoning the idea of Latin with the arguments, thus far against it.
posted by citizngkar at 4:38 PM on November 9, 2011
He is saying that, since I will be the primary person educating our son, that if it is important to me and I feel like it would be nice to learn Latin myself, since I don't know it yet, that I should do it. Reason being that we need to keep the toil of homeschooling fun for us, so that we engage more easily with the child and continue to work hard at it.
I am leaning more towards abandoning the idea of Latin with the arguments, thus far against it.
posted by citizngkar at 4:38 PM on November 9, 2011
Best answer: I studied Latin for two years in junior high. I liked it, and would gladly have taken it on into high school if it had been an option - but I don't remember a single thing I learned from it. I do in fact work in science, but if my Latin study helped in any way, I am completely unaware of it now.
I wouldn't say it's useless, but I'd say start with a living language, and if you find you've got yourself a kid who really likes learning languages, then sure, why not introduce Latin at some point? I wouldn't make it a first priority for language learning, though.
posted by Stacey at 4:38 PM on November 9, 2011
I wouldn't say it's useless, but I'd say start with a living language, and if you find you've got yourself a kid who really likes learning languages, then sure, why not introduce Latin at some point? I wouldn't make it a first priority for language learning, though.
posted by Stacey at 4:38 PM on November 9, 2011
Best answer: Voting for living language. (And voting for Spanish, because it's what I learned.) While I think Latin and classical study is great and worthwhile, it's not as practical and doesn't help much with learning other languages, in my experience - it's much easier to go from "speakable" to "speakable," and the best way to learn is immersion... and you cannot really immerse yourself in a language no one is speaking.
And no one I know who has taken Latin (outside of classics academics) found it worthwhile. I don't think it's necessary as a grounding for professions (my lawyer boyfriend and my doctor ex had no experience in it and both are successful at what they do, picking it up via coursework/google) whereas knowing Spanish has helped me a lot in finding jobs, getting into PhD programs, and etc.
[On review, I am not really advocating to abandon it altogether. It could be a great experience between you and your child.]
posted by sm1tten at 4:41 PM on November 9, 2011
And no one I know who has taken Latin (outside of classics academics) found it worthwhile. I don't think it's necessary as a grounding for professions (my lawyer boyfriend and my doctor ex had no experience in it and both are successful at what they do, picking it up via coursework/google) whereas knowing Spanish has helped me a lot in finding jobs, getting into PhD programs, and etc.
[On review, I am not really advocating to abandon it altogether. It could be a great experience between you and your child.]
posted by sm1tten at 4:41 PM on November 9, 2011
If you have languages that you or your relatives speak that are part of who you are and what culture you are part of, make sure that your kid learns these languages. THIS IS SO IMPORTANT.
If you are an English only, I would pick Spanish and Mandarin as being languages with the most "use" in the modern world. - taking into account my own biases, of course.
Not to reproduce my final paper on this topic, but:
the 'use' argument is one that has gutted Languages other than English (LOTE) education because everyone is all "English is a global language, so he just has to speak English and he'll be fine." This is true- but this is neglecting the other ways that speaking other languages are useful- cognitive advantages to being able to 'step outside' a language and evaluate it- it becomes a system, rather than 'just the way things are' magical communication.
The current EU policy that they are pursuing is that every child should have two 'heart' languages- two languages they are fluent in, can appreciate the culture and literature of, plus a 'trade language' that they can use for business transactions.
The rest of the world seems to have chosen English as a trade language- today, it is more likely that if you chose a random English-language conversation to listen in on, it would be between two people who didn't have English as a 'birth' language.
TL, DR. Good on you for including languages in your child's education. It is SO important.
posted by titanium_geek at 4:42 PM on November 9, 2011 [2 favorites]
If you are an English only, I would pick Spanish and Mandarin as being languages with the most "use" in the modern world. - taking into account my own biases, of course.
Not to reproduce my final paper on this topic, but:
the 'use' argument is one that has gutted Languages other than English (LOTE) education because everyone is all "English is a global language, so he just has to speak English and he'll be fine." This is true- but this is neglecting the other ways that speaking other languages are useful- cognitive advantages to being able to 'step outside' a language and evaluate it- it becomes a system, rather than 'just the way things are' magical communication.
The current EU policy that they are pursuing is that every child should have two 'heart' languages- two languages they are fluent in, can appreciate the culture and literature of, plus a 'trade language' that they can use for business transactions.
The rest of the world seems to have chosen English as a trade language- today, it is more likely that if you chose a random English-language conversation to listen in on, it would be between two people who didn't have English as a 'birth' language.
TL, DR. Good on you for including languages in your child's education. It is SO important.
posted by titanium_geek at 4:42 PM on November 9, 2011 [2 favorites]
See how you feel about learning it yourself before making a decision. If you find it dull, or don't pick it up too well, you might not be the best teacher.
I did find the little Latin I learned very useful when I went on to study Linguistics, and there are an awful lot of Latin and Latinate phrases in everyday English which it helps to know. But unless someone goes on to study languages or Classics, or possibly theology, it's less useful than a living language, especially for a reluctant learner who won't see the point of speaking something only dead people speak.
posted by mippy at 4:44 PM on November 9, 2011
I did find the little Latin I learned very useful when I went on to study Linguistics, and there are an awful lot of Latin and Latinate phrases in everyday English which it helps to know. But unless someone goes on to study languages or Classics, or possibly theology, it's less useful than a living language, especially for a reluctant learner who won't see the point of speaking something only dead people speak.
posted by mippy at 4:44 PM on November 9, 2011
Oh, and as well as Spanish and Mandarin (the latter is fucking difficult to learn, as it's tonal), Arabic and Urdu are useful languages too - particularly in the UK where translators are in demand by councils and government services. (With the recent influx of Eastern European immigration, Polish is in demand too.) Is there a language other than English that is popular in your area? How about ASL?
posted by mippy at 4:47 PM on November 9, 2011
posted by mippy at 4:47 PM on November 9, 2011
I should add two things to my advice above:
1) As a homeschooled youngster, I tried to teach myself Latin on four separate occasions. I didn't make it very far at all. It's very difficult to teach yourself. When I got to college, and had a teacher, I took to it like a fish to something fish like very much.
2) I was very linguistically oriented as a student. Latin has helped my writing in part because I wanted to be a writer since I could read. If your child is more into other things, it may be an upward battle.
posted by gauche at 4:49 PM on November 9, 2011
1) As a homeschooled youngster, I tried to teach myself Latin on four separate occasions. I didn't make it very far at all. It's very difficult to teach yourself. When I got to college, and had a teacher, I took to it like a fish to something fish like very much.
2) I was very linguistically oriented as a student. Latin has helped my writing in part because I wanted to be a writer since I could read. If your child is more into other things, it may be an upward battle.
posted by gauche at 4:49 PM on November 9, 2011
Best answer: Practical? I hardly ever see a menu written in Latin, but the grammar helped with English.
I could not translate much in either Latin or French now, but I got a kick out of astonishing a doctor who thought he was speaking over my head by using the word bruit to another doctor. Heh.
posted by Cranberry at 4:50 PM on November 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
I could not translate much in either Latin or French now, but I got a kick out of astonishing a doctor who thought he was speaking over my head by using the word bruit to another doctor. Heh.
posted by Cranberry at 4:50 PM on November 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
My husband minored in Latin. Maybe it's not completely useless, but a minor in a living language would have been a lot more useful.
posted by something something at 4:51 PM on November 9, 2011
posted by something something at 4:51 PM on November 9, 2011
Best answer: I took Latin for several years, along with French. It was immensely helpful for vocabulary and grammar. I also think it's one of the keys to doing really, really well on the verbal portions of standardized tests. As an actual metric of learning or aptitude, those tests are pretty useless. but they can open doors.
posted by charmcityblues at 5:04 PM on November 9, 2011
posted by charmcityblues at 5:04 PM on November 9, 2011
I also think it's one of the keys to doing really, really well on the verbal portions of standardized tests.
This has been my experience as well.
posted by Divine_Wino at 5:10 PM on November 9, 2011
This has been my experience as well.
posted by Divine_Wino at 5:10 PM on November 9, 2011
Best answer: If you do not know some Latin yourself (or possibly another language with inflected nouns, where the word has a different ending depending on if it's a subject or direct object, for example), then it will be difficult to get your son far enough along in Latin for his early homeschool grounding to be of use in HS or college.
What I might suggest is teaching him a modern Romance language (like Spanish) and SUPPLEMENTING the Spanish instruction with the occasional Latin activity here and there. There is a lot of dreck online, but here is someone's bibliography of print resources. I did not do an exhaustive search--I just looked at Latin elementary school, so perhaps some of the Latin teachers on here can provide a better list.
Do be wary of the "conversational Latin" stuff--it's NOT conversational, by and large--it's a dead language--unless you want your son to grow up to work at the See of Peter--and the conversational Latin resources you'll find are, shall we say, not the best.
Good luck! Good for you for going about this "in methodical way"!
posted by skbw at 5:18 PM on November 9, 2011 [2 favorites]
What I might suggest is teaching him a modern Romance language (like Spanish) and SUPPLEMENTING the Spanish instruction with the occasional Latin activity here and there. There is a lot of dreck online, but here is someone's bibliography of print resources. I did not do an exhaustive search--I just looked at Latin elementary school, so perhaps some of the Latin teachers on here can provide a better list.
Do be wary of the "conversational Latin" stuff--it's NOT conversational, by and large--it's a dead language--unless you want your son to grow up to work at the See of Peter--and the conversational Latin resources you'll find are, shall we say, not the best.
Good luck! Good for you for going about this "in methodical way"!
posted by skbw at 5:18 PM on November 9, 2011 [2 favorites]
When I was in a high school gifted programme, we did Latin and Greek for... linguists? English speakers? I can't remember exactly (gifted, ha) but it wasn't drilling Latin verbs so much as understanding how the two languages are at the root of other languages, how they are different, how they function in English, etc. This, presumably, would also give you that edge in standardized testing. Also, spelling bees.
Maybe that's a way to get Latin in that is more useful. I also think that trying to learn a language that no one speaks anymore would be an exercise in frustration. Better to learn a living language so that your son can actually watch films, read books that are interesting to him (Cicero didn't write a lot of kids' books), and travel and talk to people. If fluency is at all important to you, being able to converse with others is crucial.
posted by looli at 5:26 PM on November 9, 2011
Maybe that's a way to get Latin in that is more useful. I also think that trying to learn a language that no one speaks anymore would be an exercise in frustration. Better to learn a living language so that your son can actually watch films, read books that are interesting to him (Cicero didn't write a lot of kids' books), and travel and talk to people. If fluency is at all important to you, being able to converse with others is crucial.
posted by looli at 5:26 PM on November 9, 2011
Best answer: If you go to medical school with a Latin fluency, you will own Anatomy class
posted by Renoroc at 5:29 PM on November 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Renoroc at 5:29 PM on November 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I came to say what charmcityblues said about standardized tests. If you plan to homeschool your child all the way through high school, especially, those tests can be more important than you might think.
Personally I took a year or two of Latin in middle school, with French for many many years before and after. I found they complemented one another well. I imagine Spanish would be similar, and more practical than French turned out to be.
posted by slenderloris at 5:36 PM on November 9, 2011
Personally I took a year or two of Latin in middle school, with French for many many years before and after. I found they complemented one another well. I imagine Spanish would be similar, and more practical than French turned out to be.
posted by slenderloris at 5:36 PM on November 9, 2011
Having taking many years of Latin, teach your kid a living language instead.
Echoing the choir here. I took Latin all four years of undergrad as my language requirement because I had some pretty high brow notions at the time of getting a real *education* blah blah eye roll. And yeah, it's interesting and it has given me a better understanding of English, or the constructs of language, or etymology, history, etc., but it's completely impractical.
Have your child learn Spanish or German or, better yet, Arabic of Mandarin.
posted by Lutoslawski at 5:40 PM on November 9, 2011
Best answer: I came in to say what someone else has already mentioned, but I'd like to repeat it. Since you don't know foreign languages yourself, you will almost certainly find your child (and you yourself) needs more assistance than books can provide. You will need to hire someone for the occasional tutorial or (if not Latin) conversation lessons. It will be much easier to find someone qualified and affordable in just about any major language except Latin. Hell, if you choose a major European or Asian language, you should be able to enrol your kid in some club or activity that has him/her socialising with native speakers, as a bit of extra practice.
(I am a linguist and have also studied French, German, Danish, Swedish, Japanese, Maori, Greek and Latin. I would say the one that has had the most practical benefit to my life is German; but I imagine Japanese would have been awesome if I had more ties to Asia. Latin and Greek were kind of fun for learning esoteric grammar points - Greek more so in that case - and for the occasional etymological epiphany, but in no way have I ever found them to be any practical use. My husband has never studied Latin or Greek formally, but he seems to have just as good an idea as I do about classical roots of English words: simply by having read a lot and developed a huge vocabulary, looking lots of stuff up in the dictionary as a kid, and pondering relationships between languages for fun.)
posted by lollusc at 5:52 PM on November 9, 2011
(I am a linguist and have also studied French, German, Danish, Swedish, Japanese, Maori, Greek and Latin. I would say the one that has had the most practical benefit to my life is German; but I imagine Japanese would have been awesome if I had more ties to Asia. Latin and Greek were kind of fun for learning esoteric grammar points - Greek more so in that case - and for the occasional etymological epiphany, but in no way have I ever found them to be any practical use. My husband has never studied Latin or Greek formally, but he seems to have just as good an idea as I do about classical roots of English words: simply by having read a lot and developed a huge vocabulary, looking lots of stuff up in the dictionary as a kid, and pondering relationships between languages for fun.)
posted by lollusc at 5:52 PM on November 9, 2011
Also, a kind of outside the box thought: if you are keen on having your child exposed to a less common language, and understanding history and heritage, and to choose a language that is significantly different from English, so that the child ends up learning a lot about grammar and how to pronounce weird sounds...
How about a language indigenous to your region? If you are in the USA, there may well be language classes or language learning materials available for a major Native American language of your region, and you could advertise for someone to give lessons now and again as well. Obviously there are many smaller languages that have few or no speakers left, so those wouldn't be possible, but there are some large well-documented ones with lots of speakers too, and it would be kind of awesome...
posted by lollusc at 5:56 PM on November 9, 2011
How about a language indigenous to your region? If you are in the USA, there may well be language classes or language learning materials available for a major Native American language of your region, and you could advertise for someone to give lessons now and again as well. Obviously there are many smaller languages that have few or no speakers left, so those wouldn't be possible, but there are some large well-documented ones with lots of speakers too, and it would be kind of awesome...
posted by lollusc at 5:56 PM on November 9, 2011
Best answer: I took 5.5 years of Latin, and I don't speak any Romance languages, but (in print especially) I can usually figure out what they're saying.
posted by cmoj at 5:57 PM on November 9, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by cmoj at 5:57 PM on November 9, 2011 [2 favorites]
I studied Spanish through most of my schooling and took 4 years of Latin in high school. Spanish has been incredibly useful throughout my adult life. The best argument I have heard for studying Latin is that doing so helps one learn how to learn, not to acquire an actual language skill. Therefore it is much more suited for a high schooler wanting to improve study habits, not a child wanting to learn how to communicate in a second language. I'm a biologist, and I don't find my familiarity with Latin helpful- it's not like we go around reciting bionomial nomenclature. A basic understanding of statistics is a much, much more valuable tool.
So count me as a strong vote NO against Latin, and a strong vote YES for a conversational second language your child might get to use someday. Do you or your spouse speak a second language, or have a desire to learn one? That would be a great place to start.
And not to sound overly snarky, but your baby is only three months old. Maybe you should slow your roll a bit.
posted by emd3737 at 6:13 PM on November 9, 2011
So count me as a strong vote NO against Latin, and a strong vote YES for a conversational second language your child might get to use someday. Do you or your spouse speak a second language, or have a desire to learn one? That would be a great place to start.
And not to sound overly snarky, but your baby is only three months old. Maybe you should slow your roll a bit.
posted by emd3737 at 6:13 PM on November 9, 2011
Best answer: While the chance of meeting an Ancient Roman on the street is zero, I believe there is merit to learning Latin. In high school I studied Latin along side Spanish. I agree that Latin helped me with English and Spanish grammar and vocabulary. Plus, Latin is a lot of fun! I vote learning Latin a long side another language. For elementary school children, the textbook I've seen is Minimus.
posted by oceano at 7:24 PM on November 9, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by oceano at 7:24 PM on November 9, 2011 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Latin is useful if your child might become a) a Classicist or b) a medievalist. Since the job prospects in both of those academic fields are terrible, I don't think this is the most practical language to learn - nor is it a language where learning it as a child would give you any advanatge, since it is a dead language. I love Latin, but I would never suggest anyone learn it unless they really want to read Cicero or 14th century manorial records.
Latin is not of use to science. You would be better off teaching your child statistics.
posted by jb at 7:30 PM on November 9, 2011
Latin is not of use to science. You would be better off teaching your child statistics.
posted by jb at 7:30 PM on November 9, 2011
Best answer: i have a degree in latin and now i am a programmer. knowing latin has helped me immensely in learning different coding languages.
posted by elle.jeezy at 7:48 PM on November 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by elle.jeezy at 7:48 PM on November 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Chalk me in as someone who did six years of Latin before college, and three more in it. I majored in Classical and Near Eastern Archaeology. However, I also did a year in Italy on a Baby Classical Nerds program, taking classes in Italian, Ancient Greek, and Latin at the same time. I later did advanced coursework in Italian, German, and beginning French. Latin helped immeasurably with learning the rest, and has been a continual source of pleasure besides. I don't quite get all the Latin hate; loads of people learned a language in high school, never did anything with it, and forgot it, but they're not commenting that no one should ever learn conversational French. Perhaps some of it is just how a person thinks: for me, that training in repetition and drilling was super hard, and super good for studying in nearly every discipline.
But it is fairly complicated, as are most languages, so there you go. There are very solid programs and books to supplement language study, but you would have to do a lot of background work for yourself (ablative absolute, anyone?) Unless you happen to speak Mandarin or Arabic, this is obviously true for any serious language study. So, honestly? He's three months old. Get a bunch of foreign, subtitled movies. Watch those. Stream foreign language stations. Take him to events and shops and parts of town where English isn't the presumed language. You could teach yourself a language, but really, in ten years, which one will be best? He may not have an aptitude for language. He may love them all. He may never, ever, want to work in the medical field. But the really key part is learning pronunciation early, so find fun ways of making various languages accessible. And yes, work Latin into your curriculum regardless: it can be fun! It can be really useful! It can give insight into three thousand years of human history! It can also get you 800's on the SAT Verbal, just saying. But that is a really dumb reason to force a kid to learn the ablative absolute.
posted by jetlagaddict at 8:06 PM on November 9, 2011
But it is fairly complicated, as are most languages, so there you go. There are very solid programs and books to supplement language study, but you would have to do a lot of background work for yourself (ablative absolute, anyone?) Unless you happen to speak Mandarin or Arabic, this is obviously true for any serious language study. So, honestly? He's three months old. Get a bunch of foreign, subtitled movies. Watch those. Stream foreign language stations. Take him to events and shops and parts of town where English isn't the presumed language. You could teach yourself a language, but really, in ten years, which one will be best? He may not have an aptitude for language. He may love them all. He may never, ever, want to work in the medical field. But the really key part is learning pronunciation early, so find fun ways of making various languages accessible. And yes, work Latin into your curriculum regardless: it can be fun! It can be really useful! It can give insight into three thousand years of human history! It can also get you 800's on the SAT Verbal, just saying. But that is a really dumb reason to force a kid to learn the ablative absolute.
posted by jetlagaddict at 8:06 PM on November 9, 2011
Best answer: Well, I'm a practicing physician and managed to do just fine in anatomy with a good general education, a smattering of classic mythology and an excellent memory. The thing about Latin and Greek in the biological sciences is that you don't really say anything in those languages, you just name things. 95% of my Latin and Greek vocabulary is just nouns, which translate as "bump", "head", "liver", "scooped-out area", etc. I guess it would be useful for some of the funny-shaped bones that are named after what they look like, but you get that in med school as fun trivia anyway, and it's hardly a reason to learn an entire language.
On the other hand, I conducted probably 25% of my patient visits today entirely in Spanish. Guess which language I wish I spoke more fluently?
There's nothing wrong with Latin if you love it and would enjoy teaching it more than something else, but if you just want him to have a language he would probably ultimately prefer to have one that's in current common usage.
posted by The Elusive Architeuthis at 8:18 PM on November 9, 2011 [3 favorites]
On the other hand, I conducted probably 25% of my patient visits today entirely in Spanish. Guess which language I wish I spoke more fluently?
There's nothing wrong with Latin if you love it and would enjoy teaching it more than something else, but if you just want him to have a language he would probably ultimately prefer to have one that's in current common usage.
posted by The Elusive Architeuthis at 8:18 PM on November 9, 2011 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I have studied Latin, French, German and Italian. I love them all immensely, and Latin is my favorite. However, remember that the first year of a child's life is when its brain begins to sort out all of the sounds that will be significant in conversation, and that there is a key period of time (I believe 8 years) for learning how to speak languages fluently without the grueling effort it often takes for us adults.
I would vote for a living language in this early stage of his life, then Latin later on. It's not a zero-sum choice here! And if he's speaking English + a second language, his ability to learn even MORE languages will be far greater. Latin is immensely useful for understanding grammar and etymology, but can be put off for a while since there's very little in the realm of speech.
Make sure to immerse your child in the second-language though, and make sure it's via human contact and not videos. Teaching your child a second language via video is largely useless. Watch this TED Talk about babies and language learning for more information!
posted by thebots at 8:22 PM on November 9, 2011
I would vote for a living language in this early stage of his life, then Latin later on. It's not a zero-sum choice here! And if he's speaking English + a second language, his ability to learn even MORE languages will be far greater. Latin is immensely useful for understanding grammar and etymology, but can be put off for a while since there's very little in the realm of speech.
Make sure to immerse your child in the second-language though, and make sure it's via human contact and not videos. Teaching your child a second language via video is largely useless. Watch this TED Talk about babies and language learning for more information!
posted by thebots at 8:22 PM on November 9, 2011
When my older sister was entering 8th grade, she wanted to take Latin. My father, who is a physician, didn't want her to- it's a dead language, why waste the time?
My mother, who had gone to Catholic schools, said, "Let her take it; she'll hate it."
Well, turns out they were both wrong: My sister took 5 years of Latin, and so did I. Why? Because our teacher was fabulous. Honestly I think that mattered more than subject.
Both of us did minor in classics in college (and we both ended up taking some Ancient Greek, too). I thoroughly enjoyed it, and yes, several of the reasons people mention above (grammatical structure, cognates in modern languages and technical terminology, cultural knowledge, enjoyment of the literature/poetry) hold; but the real reason I am glad I studied Latin is because of the truly awesome teacher I got to have.
posted by nat at 8:37 PM on November 9, 2011
My mother, who had gone to Catholic schools, said, "Let her take it; she'll hate it."
Well, turns out they were both wrong: My sister took 5 years of Latin, and so did I. Why? Because our teacher was fabulous. Honestly I think that mattered more than subject.
Both of us did minor in classics in college (and we both ended up taking some Ancient Greek, too). I thoroughly enjoyed it, and yes, several of the reasons people mention above (grammatical structure, cognates in modern languages and technical terminology, cultural knowledge, enjoyment of the literature/poetry) hold; but the real reason I am glad I studied Latin is because of the truly awesome teacher I got to have.
posted by nat at 8:37 PM on November 9, 2011
I studied Latin for four years in high school and I found very instrumental in helping me to get into a fairly selective college because 1) it helps TREMENDOUSLY with the vocab in the verbal part of standardized tests and 2) I was quite active in the state's Junior Classical League (basically a Latin club).
While I didn't derive much use out of it per se, I enjoyed the intellectual challenge of declining all of those nouns and adjectives.
The one disappointing thing I found about Latin was the lack of really interesting literature. Reading about Caesar invading all those different Germanic tribes was a bit dry. Not exactly Tolstoy or Proust.
And to all those people who suggest teaching Chinese to your kid, speaking as an American who started learning it in college and has studied or lived with it for close to 15 years, I beseech you: unless you're ethnically Chinese and have some cultural connection and are able to completely immerse your kid, DO NOT INFLICT CHINESE ON YOUR KID!!!!!!
posted by alidarbac at 9:05 PM on November 9, 2011
While I didn't derive much use out of it per se, I enjoyed the intellectual challenge of declining all of those nouns and adjectives.
The one disappointing thing I found about Latin was the lack of really interesting literature. Reading about Caesar invading all those different Germanic tribes was a bit dry. Not exactly Tolstoy or Proust.
And to all those people who suggest teaching Chinese to your kid, speaking as an American who started learning it in college and has studied or lived with it for close to 15 years, I beseech you: unless you're ethnically Chinese and have some cultural connection and are able to completely immerse your kid, DO NOT INFLICT CHINESE ON YOUR KID!!!!!!
posted by alidarbac at 9:05 PM on November 9, 2011
My high school had a terrific Latin teacher, I took it for three years, and consider it one of the highlights of my high school education. I think that the disconnect in the value of Latin is that it is lumped in as "taking a foreign language."
That's not really the point. I mean, yes, literally, you are studying a language other than your own. But the immediate usefulness of studying German or French is the ability to converse and read in those languages. The usefulness of Latin is much more about understanding the structure and context within language.
The majority of our required education beyond eighth grade is in subjects that are likewise "useless," if your goal is simply acquiring a specific, demonstrable skill that has an immediate transactional value. History, literature, higher mathematics, science, etc. And I'm certainly not knocking the deeper value of being able to speak multiple languages -- I think it's asinine that the US school system doesn't teach foreign languages to young children.
So, yay, Latin! But not as a foreign language to teach a small child. Think about offering Latin when your kid is about 12.
posted by desuetude at 9:44 PM on November 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
That's not really the point. I mean, yes, literally, you are studying a language other than your own. But the immediate usefulness of studying German or French is the ability to converse and read in those languages. The usefulness of Latin is much more about understanding the structure and context within language.
The majority of our required education beyond eighth grade is in subjects that are likewise "useless," if your goal is simply acquiring a specific, demonstrable skill that has an immediate transactional value. History, literature, higher mathematics, science, etc. And I'm certainly not knocking the deeper value of being able to speak multiple languages -- I think it's asinine that the US school system doesn't teach foreign languages to young children.
So, yay, Latin! But not as a foreign language to teach a small child. Think about offering Latin when your kid is about 12.
posted by desuetude at 9:44 PM on November 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Eight years of Latin here. As many have said upthread, I am convinced it helped me to become much better at English—namely, grammar, sentence structure, writing in general, and to some extent vocabulary. Being a better writer helped me when I was a lawyer, and it also helped me to become what I am today, which is, well, a writer.
That said, I'd still strongly urge Spanish. Tons of good writers never studied Latin; no Spanish speakers never learned Spanish.
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 10:34 PM on November 9, 2011
That said, I'd still strongly urge Spanish. Tons of good writers never studied Latin; no Spanish speakers never learned Spanish.
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 10:34 PM on November 9, 2011
My parents tried to convince me to take Latin, arguing that it would be good for the standardized tests and whatever. I refused and took French instead. I got a perfect SAT verbal score anyway, AND I have a second language that other people around the world actually speak - take that, parents!
Latin is nice and all, but given the choice between it and a living language, I'd pick the latter.
posted by naoko at 11:34 PM on November 9, 2011
Latin is nice and all, but given the choice between it and a living language, I'd pick the latter.
posted by naoko at 11:34 PM on November 9, 2011
Best answer: I studied French briefly in elementary school, forgot it all, and then studied it again in high school. It helped me with english grammar. I can parse the romance languages pretty well in writing, between English and the French I've studied. Basically, I haven't met anyone who studied latin who got more out of it than I got from French. And if I ever go to France, I can stumble my way through finding food and shelter.
Also... the great thing about teaching a kid a language when they're very young is that they learn the language without needing to be taught the rules. Latin seems to be appreciated for its rationality and logic among its adherents, so I don't see it as something that would be particularly useful to know 'intuitively'. It's the difference between knowing that 'I wish I were a millionaire' uses the subjunctive tense (interesting! analytical! linguistic!) versus having those automatically be the words that come out of your mouth when you think about how nice it would be to have a million bucks. The latter is really great if you're trying to communicate with someone who speaks that language. But not worth as much if the language is dead.
posted by Lady Li at 12:20 AM on November 10, 2011
Also... the great thing about teaching a kid a language when they're very young is that they learn the language without needing to be taught the rules. Latin seems to be appreciated for its rationality and logic among its adherents, so I don't see it as something that would be particularly useful to know 'intuitively'. It's the difference between knowing that 'I wish I were a millionaire' uses the subjunctive tense (interesting! analytical! linguistic!) versus having those automatically be the words that come out of your mouth when you think about how nice it would be to have a million bucks. The latter is really great if you're trying to communicate with someone who speaks that language. But not worth as much if the language is dead.
posted by Lady Li at 12:20 AM on November 10, 2011
I did Latin for a year but was forced to stop due to class conflicts. Would have loved to have done more. I think it doesn't matter the language your teach your child, just as long as you start them on languages as early as possible and as a persistent theme throughout childhood. This will make it easier for your child to grasp languages later.
posted by arcticseal at 1:41 AM on November 10, 2011
posted by arcticseal at 1:41 AM on November 10, 2011
Latin and Greek are most useful if you want close contact with those cultures that form the basis of western civilization. As many have said, they have almost no economic value. As a white European male, I've decided to embrace my culture and the traditions that have developed over the last 3000 years or so (celebrate the good stuff, of course, not trying to gloss over the bad stuff here). Knowing some Latin, and reading a bit of Ovid's love poetry, Livy's history or Virgil's epic in Latin is not just a pleasure and an aid to understanding where the way we think comes from, it also helps in understanding everything else that's been written in the last 2000 years, since up to quite recently, any educated westerner slogged through the ablative absolute, before enjoying the poetry.
Lots of great literature was written by people who never learned Latin, but Shakespeare, Milton, Hobbes, Mill ... and lots of others did learn it, and it matters that they did.
So, a Latin education is valuable in understanding 'high culture" in the western tradition, and this tradition is full of treasures. However, I have to acknowledge that being culturally rich in a single tradition may be further down a wish list than being economically rich, or maybe even being culturally rich in several traditions. I don't know what your priorities are.
Finally, Latin is also very valuable for understanding the Roman Catholic tradition, which you may regard as a positive or a negative.
posted by Gomoryhu at 4:08 AM on November 10, 2011
Lots of great literature was written by people who never learned Latin, but Shakespeare, Milton, Hobbes, Mill ... and lots of others did learn it, and it matters that they did.
So, a Latin education is valuable in understanding 'high culture" in the western tradition, and this tradition is full of treasures. However, I have to acknowledge that being culturally rich in a single tradition may be further down a wish list than being economically rich, or maybe even being culturally rich in several traditions. I don't know what your priorities are.
Finally, Latin is also very valuable for understanding the Roman Catholic tradition, which you may regard as a positive or a negative.
posted by Gomoryhu at 4:08 AM on November 10, 2011
I disagree with those who are saying that studying Latin has little economic value. I studied Latin for 13 years and Ancient Greek for around 10 (to Masters level). I have never interviewed for a job I did not get, in a competitive field completely unrelated to Classics. And at every single interview, the interviewer has said something like, "wow, Classics, that's unusual!" and then "why Classics?"
Transferrable skills, that's why. Learning Latin has given me a faculty for analytical thinking and problem solving. It has taught me to be conscientious and rigourous. It has improved my English immensely and provided me with strong communication skills. It has introduced me first-hand to ideas which have changed the world, allowing me to see how these ideas have developed from their original meaning and application, and thus have a 'bigger picture' of topics like art, science, religion.
I think one of the awesome things about Latin is that you don't have to learn boring things like how to ask for directions or order at a restaurant. You learn by immersing yourself in some of the greatest works of literature. More bang for your buck, I'd say. And then I have found my ability to learn and guess meanings in modern languages has improved immensely anyway.
The icing on the cake is that it makes my CV stand out in a sea of people with very similar qualifications. Interviews are opportunities to prove to an employer that Latin is not a waste of time - it actually makes me more valuable as an employee.
posted by guessthis at 4:49 AM on November 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
Transferrable skills, that's why. Learning Latin has given me a faculty for analytical thinking and problem solving. It has taught me to be conscientious and rigourous. It has improved my English immensely and provided me with strong communication skills. It has introduced me first-hand to ideas which have changed the world, allowing me to see how these ideas have developed from their original meaning and application, and thus have a 'bigger picture' of topics like art, science, religion.
I think one of the awesome things about Latin is that you don't have to learn boring things like how to ask for directions or order at a restaurant. You learn by immersing yourself in some of the greatest works of literature. More bang for your buck, I'd say. And then I have found my ability to learn and guess meanings in modern languages has improved immensely anyway.
The icing on the cake is that it makes my CV stand out in a sea of people with very similar qualifications. Interviews are opportunities to prove to an employer that Latin is not a waste of time - it actually makes me more valuable as an employee.
posted by guessthis at 4:49 AM on November 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
This child is still a baby! If you want him to learn a language with little effort, start speaking one that you know to him now, as well as English. No, it won't confuse him, many people grow up bilingual this way as long as both languages are continued when the child is older and can be taught to be literate in both.
Latin is useful in understanding the roots of words, and my Dad thought it was one of the most useful things he learned in school, but it is not a spoken language and not something you would be teaching a child until they were older, as an academic discipline, not as a language he will speak.
Enjoy your baby while he is a baby. It is much too early to worry about subjects for home school. He or she has many things to learn in the next few years that have nothing to do with "school" of any sort. Teach the child a living language now by speaking it, if you are able to do that, but leave things like Latin for later.
posted by mermayd at 5:14 AM on November 10, 2011
Latin is useful in understanding the roots of words, and my Dad thought it was one of the most useful things he learned in school, but it is not a spoken language and not something you would be teaching a child until they were older, as an academic discipline, not as a language he will speak.
Enjoy your baby while he is a baby. It is much too early to worry about subjects for home school. He or she has many things to learn in the next few years that have nothing to do with "school" of any sort. Teach the child a living language now by speaking it, if you are able to do that, but leave things like Latin for later.
posted by mermayd at 5:14 AM on November 10, 2011
I love languages (duh) and have studied a bunch of them, including Latin (beginning in seventh grade). I concur with everyone who's said that a modern language would be far more useful, and I would point out that learning a Romance language (descended from Latin) will give you the same kind of help with English vocabulary that Latin would. Another point: teaching your kid to read and absorb the etymologies in dictionaries will be far more useful in understanding the history and connections of the language. That said, if you decide to proceed with it:
> He is saying that, since I will be the primary person educating our son, that if it is important to me and I feel like it would be nice to learn Latin myself, since I don't know it yet, that I should do it.
Do not try to teach your son Latin while simultaneously learning it yourself. You will not do a good job, and he will not learn it well. If you want him to learn Latin, you will need to hire a tutor who genuinely knows the language or send him to an immersion school (if there is such a thing for Latin).
posted by languagehat at 7:50 AM on November 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
> He is saying that, since I will be the primary person educating our son, that if it is important to me and I feel like it would be nice to learn Latin myself, since I don't know it yet, that I should do it.
Do not try to teach your son Latin while simultaneously learning it yourself. You will not do a good job, and he will not learn it well. If you want him to learn Latin, you will need to hire a tutor who genuinely knows the language or send him to an immersion school (if there is such a thing for Latin).
posted by languagehat at 7:50 AM on November 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
Not that I would ever want to produce a child like Mark Zuckerberg, but his proficiency in classics and Latin apparantly helped him progress. So this skewers the 'modern languages are the best thing to learn if you want to be profitable with them' argument.
(IMO, this is not a good primary reason to learn anything, and I generally think learning as many languages as possible is worthwhile. I have Latin, French, German, and a Celtic language, and it has worked out academically, if not necessarily financially, very well for me, but I am not particularly interested in being rich. It is respected by employers too, as guessthis says)
Learning Latin necessitates learning the history of the language and learning aspects of the culture from which it came. It is therefore going to help your child learn some Roman, 'dark ages' and medieval/early modern history and in an applied, not superficial, sense. From the state of things now, we will need as many people as possible with that kind of depth of knowledge of history in the near future.
posted by iamnotateenagegirl at 8:12 AM on November 10, 2011
(IMO, this is not a good primary reason to learn anything, and I generally think learning as many languages as possible is worthwhile. I have Latin, French, German, and a Celtic language, and it has worked out academically, if not necessarily financially, very well for me, but I am not particularly interested in being rich. It is respected by employers too, as guessthis says)
Learning Latin necessitates learning the history of the language and learning aspects of the culture from which it came. It is therefore going to help your child learn some Roman, 'dark ages' and medieval/early modern history and in an applied, not superficial, sense. From the state of things now, we will need as many people as possible with that kind of depth of knowledge of history in the near future.
posted by iamnotateenagegirl at 8:12 AM on November 10, 2011
I forgot to put this in my earlier response - learning latin roots in high school was very helpful. I think, once your son is older, teaching him latin roots to expand his vocabulary could be very helpful in all the ways you mentioned.
I don't, however, see any real reason to learn all the latin grammar.
posted by insectosaurus at 8:57 AM on November 10, 2011
I don't, however, see any real reason to learn all the latin grammar.
posted by insectosaurus at 8:57 AM on November 10, 2011
Latin was compulsory at my school for third-years (age 13-14), and I chose to take it for GCSE after that (two more years of study). It was one of my two favourite subjects, the other being Maths. If the school had offered it at A-level (the final two years before university), I would have taken it like a shot, but unfortunately there wasn't enough interest to sustain a course.
For me, Latin was fun. I really enjoyed the puzzle-like nature of the translation exercises. I got a kick out of learning to read some of Caesar's Gallic Wars and the Aeneid in the original. I liked getting to study a language where all the emphasis was on the things I did well - reading and writing - and none on the aspects that made me want to curl into a tiny ball in the corner (speaking, listening, the dreaded role-play exercises in front of the class). I found the subject matter of even the earliest Latin textbook chapters far more engaging than the subject matter of the French and German ones: what's more fun, reading about Sextus and Marcus fighting off a wolf, or reading about Jean-Claude's exciting trip to the supermarché? I enjoyed the snippets of classical history and mythology that came along with the language. I loved the "aha!" moments where a word in English, or in French, suddenly revealed its Latin root and made perfect sense.
As an adult, I have appreciated being able to make sense of the Latin inscriptions that turn up all over the UK and Europe. It also pleases me that I can make educated guesses at some written Spanish, Portuguese and Italian words; French helps there too, but because the subject matter and the object of the Latin course were so different from those of the French course, the two vocabularies overlap to give me wider access to other romance languages.
Do I wish I'd been offered, say, Japanese at school? Oh yes. But instead of Latin? No. I don't regret the time I spent on Latin for a moment; in fact, I wish I'd been offered ancient Greek too.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 9:38 AM on November 10, 2011
For me, Latin was fun. I really enjoyed the puzzle-like nature of the translation exercises. I got a kick out of learning to read some of Caesar's Gallic Wars and the Aeneid in the original. I liked getting to study a language where all the emphasis was on the things I did well - reading and writing - and none on the aspects that made me want to curl into a tiny ball in the corner (speaking, listening, the dreaded role-play exercises in front of the class). I found the subject matter of even the earliest Latin textbook chapters far more engaging than the subject matter of the French and German ones: what's more fun, reading about Sextus and Marcus fighting off a wolf, or reading about Jean-Claude's exciting trip to the supermarché? I enjoyed the snippets of classical history and mythology that came along with the language. I loved the "aha!" moments where a word in English, or in French, suddenly revealed its Latin root and made perfect sense.
As an adult, I have appreciated being able to make sense of the Latin inscriptions that turn up all over the UK and Europe. It also pleases me that I can make educated guesses at some written Spanish, Portuguese and Italian words; French helps there too, but because the subject matter and the object of the Latin course were so different from those of the French course, the two vocabularies overlap to give me wider access to other romance languages.
Do I wish I'd been offered, say, Japanese at school? Oh yes. But instead of Latin? No. I don't regret the time I spent on Latin for a moment; in fact, I wish I'd been offered ancient Greek too.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 9:38 AM on November 10, 2011
If you're psyched about learning Latin, then you won't just be teaching him Latin, but also modeling enthusiasm for a foreign language and translating that enthusiasm into practical learning. That will be enormously practical for him when he turns 12 and decides that Latin is stupid and impractical and he wishes you'd have taught him Spanish/Mandarin/etc
Which I do agree are much more practical languages, and that many of the 'benefits' of learning Latin are actually really just benefits of learning other languages.
And maybe by the time he grows up, we'll have matured to the point of realizing how silly it is to call old Greek and Latin literature "Classics" while sectoring off old Hebrew, Arabic, Persian, Asian (regretting my ignorance here), etc, literature into specific regional/historical studies headings.
posted by Salamandrous at 9:03 AM on November 11, 2011
Which I do agree are much more practical languages, and that many of the 'benefits' of learning Latin are actually really just benefits of learning other languages.
And maybe by the time he grows up, we'll have matured to the point of realizing how silly it is to call old Greek and Latin literature "Classics" while sectoring off old Hebrew, Arabic, Persian, Asian (regretting my ignorance here), etc, literature into specific regional/historical studies headings.
posted by Salamandrous at 9:03 AM on November 11, 2011
I got a kick out of learning to read some of Caesar's Gallic Wars and the Aeneid in the original. I liked getting to study a language where all the emphasis was on the things I did well - reading and writing - and none on the aspects that made me want to curl into a tiny ball in the corner (speaking, listening, the dreaded role-play exercises in front of the class). I found the subject matter of even the earliest Latin textbook chapters far more engaging than the subject matter of the French and German ones: what's more fun, reading about Sextus and Marcus fighting off a wolf, or reading about Jean-Claude's exciting trip to the supermarché? I enjoyed the snippets of classical history and mythology that came along with the language. I loved the "aha!" moments where a word in English, or in French, suddenly revealed its Latin root and made perfect sense.
Yep, all of this, and I'll add that translating the first bit of Genesis from the Vulgate (origin of translation assignment undisclosed) was enormously illuminating regarding any alleged "literal reading" of...anything. Language is slippery.
posted by desuetude at 12:25 AM on November 13, 2011
Yep, all of this, and I'll add that translating the first bit of Genesis from the Vulgate (origin of translation assignment undisclosed) was enormously illuminating regarding any alleged "literal reading" of...anything. Language is slippery.
posted by desuetude at 12:25 AM on November 13, 2011
I think one of the awesome things about Latin is that you don't have to learn boring things like how to ask for directions or order at a restaurant.
It's true that the process of learning these things can be boring, but I would argue that it's decidedly not boring to actually be in foreign countries, an experience that is aided by being able to do things like ask for directions and order at a restaurant when you're there.
posted by naoko at 10:11 AM on November 13, 2011
It's true that the process of learning these things can be boring, but I would argue that it's decidedly not boring to actually be in foreign countries, an experience that is aided by being able to do things like ask for directions and order at a restaurant when you're there.
posted by naoko at 10:11 AM on November 13, 2011
Well, I'm a practicing physician and managed to do just fine in anatomy with a good general education, a smattering of classic mythology and an excellent memory. The thing about Latin and Greek in the biological sciences is that you don't really say anything in those languages, you just name things. 95% of my Latin and Greek vocabulary is just nouns, which translate as "bump", "head", "liver", "scooped-out area", etc. I guess it would be useful for some of the funny-shaped bones that are named after what they look like, but you get that in med school as fun trivia anyway, and it's hardly a reason to learn an entire language.Currently in medical training. I agree with exactly everything here. I just wanted to quote it in its entirety.
On the other hand, I conducted probably 25% of my patient visits today entirely in Spanish. Guess which language I wish I spoke more fluently?
There's nothing wrong with Latin if you love it and would enjoy teaching it more than something else, but if you just want him to have a language he would probably ultimately prefer to have one that's in current common usage.
posted by midmarch snowman at 1:48 PM on November 17, 2011
But here's the thing--this is kind of a forest for the trees discussion. No one should even consider teaching their child Latin unless they know it very well themselves! If one tries to do this without a cold solid knowledge, the child will not learn Latin at all! Any benefit is imaginary!
OP, this is not meant to sound harsh. I say this as someone who actually can read a little Latin with a dictionary, Cicero, Caesar, Catullus, that kind of thing. I can, for that matter, read a little Greek, too, the Apology, Xenophon, you know. And I would NEVER undertake to teach my child Latin or Greek, if I had a child. I would find one of my classicist buddies and pay them $75 an hour to do it...and they, too, would probably say they didn't know enough.
Pick another language. He can learn Latin when he comes out of homeschool if he wants to.
posted by skbw at 7:08 PM on November 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
OP, this is not meant to sound harsh. I say this as someone who actually can read a little Latin with a dictionary, Cicero, Caesar, Catullus, that kind of thing. I can, for that matter, read a little Greek, too, the Apology, Xenophon, you know. And I would NEVER undertake to teach my child Latin or Greek, if I had a child. I would find one of my classicist buddies and pay them $75 an hour to do it...and they, too, would probably say they didn't know enough.
Pick another language. He can learn Latin when he comes out of homeschool if he wants to.
posted by skbw at 7:08 PM on November 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
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If you live in much of the U.S., Spanish is incredibly useful. If you want to be an international businessperson, I hear that Chinese can be very useful.
posted by insectosaurus at 4:09 PM on November 9, 2011 [2 favorites]