The fine line between understanding and way too accommodating
November 8, 2011 2:37 PM Subscribe
Trying to evaluate relationship - how to fix these major problems? Are they even major problems, all things considered?
I am a mid-20s female; partner is mid-20s male; we have been together for several years. We have discussed marriage as a distinct future possibility.
1. I am extremely happy with him 97% of the time. We have similar values about the big things: money, religion, family. We are extremely open and communicate with each other about everything, including concerns and criticisms. We argue constructively and respectfully. I think this is our biggest strength.
2. He has a higher sex drive than me and has expressed interest in some kinkier things that I am not opposed to, but am somewhat indifferent towards. I have made a good-faith effort to incorporate this into our lifestyle (trying to be GGG, etc.), but I am just not into it as he is. Also, he has brought up the possibility of having his interests fulfilled by people outside the relationship. I told him I did not want that. He respects my opinion, and I fully trust that he will continue to do this, but I do worry that it may not be sustainable. To be more concrete, there are specific fantasies of his that he has every single day that will not go away with time.
3. I have trouble discerning what precisely it is that bothers me about him being with other women. It's not that I don't think I am "enough" for him. The sex we have is fulfilling, and I know he is attracted to me, but I also think that sex is not the biggest part of what constitutes a relationship. (and he would agree with this) On the one hand, the idea of non-monogamy makes me physically uncomfortable and distressed. On the other hand, I think - well, if nothing else changed, and he is really just getting off because of a specific kind of sexual encounter that I am not willing or able to fulfill - what does that mean for the rest of our relationship? If it doesn't affect it, what's the real problem?
4. Related, I think he views sex as more transactional, whereas I associate it with an emotional commitment. E.g., he would not have a problem with me having sex with other men, as long as they were not emotional affairs. (we've discussed this) In some ways I think he would be happy that my sexual needs were being met. Except, I have trouble imagining anything that leads to sex that does not begin with some kind of emotional interest/attachment, so this has never happened. My boyfriend, I think, is really interested in me also being able to fulfill whatever kind of sexual fantasies or interests I have, except-- I don't seem to have many! Or they all seem fairly vanilla, nothing stuff he wouldn't want to do.
5. So I think about everything, and I think of all the people I've met, or the couples I know who have their own problems. Or even all the relationship questions on AskMeFi. It seems that everything else the boyfriend and I have going for us (chiefly, our ability to communicate and be 100% honest with each other about everything; our delight in each other's company) - are really rare! And valuable! I don't think I would meet anyone else I am so compatible with as a best friend, roommate, teammate for life.
Just... in a very literal sense, our sexual desires are not compatible. Someone has to give up something. I have a feeling it might have to be me. And blah blah evolutionary psychology blah blah humans not wired for monogamy blah blah men especially. I know, I know, lizard brain does not overcome a personal choice and decision to commitment you make to your partner. But what if your lizard brain wants a very specific thing your girlfriend can't really fulfill, and this desire is very strong, persistent, and will not go away? [trying to be vague here, I think there is enough info to answer anyway.] Just the idea of my boyfriend having sex with someone else makes me feel terrible, intuitively, but I can't tell how much of that is because of societal norms about monogamy that I've internalized. And then I think about how I believe sex is not the most important part of a relationship that encompasses so much more. So I try to think about opening things up, but I still have a hard time with it. Additionally - I know I have a great deal of trouble validating the legitimacy of my emotional responses to situations and just overall, a really, really strong sense of obligation (to everyone). Does that change things? I can't tell if that's why I'm even considering it, or if I'm just trying to be pragmatic about the situation.
In summary:
1) Do these sound like insurmountable obstacles to you?
2) Should we seek couples counseling? Will someone with more experience with these issues help us find some middle ground?
And--
3) If you are someone who has struggled with the idea of monogamy, but ultimately decided to commit to it, why? Did it work out? If you decided to have an open relationship instead, why, and did it work out? And if you changed your mind about this topic, how did that happen?
You may also e-mail me at thatother3percent@gmail.com.
I am a mid-20s female; partner is mid-20s male; we have been together for several years. We have discussed marriage as a distinct future possibility.
1. I am extremely happy with him 97% of the time. We have similar values about the big things: money, religion, family. We are extremely open and communicate with each other about everything, including concerns and criticisms. We argue constructively and respectfully. I think this is our biggest strength.
2. He has a higher sex drive than me and has expressed interest in some kinkier things that I am not opposed to, but am somewhat indifferent towards. I have made a good-faith effort to incorporate this into our lifestyle (trying to be GGG, etc.), but I am just not into it as he is. Also, he has brought up the possibility of having his interests fulfilled by people outside the relationship. I told him I did not want that. He respects my opinion, and I fully trust that he will continue to do this, but I do worry that it may not be sustainable. To be more concrete, there are specific fantasies of his that he has every single day that will not go away with time.
3. I have trouble discerning what precisely it is that bothers me about him being with other women. It's not that I don't think I am "enough" for him. The sex we have is fulfilling, and I know he is attracted to me, but I also think that sex is not the biggest part of what constitutes a relationship. (and he would agree with this) On the one hand, the idea of non-monogamy makes me physically uncomfortable and distressed. On the other hand, I think - well, if nothing else changed, and he is really just getting off because of a specific kind of sexual encounter that I am not willing or able to fulfill - what does that mean for the rest of our relationship? If it doesn't affect it, what's the real problem?
4. Related, I think he views sex as more transactional, whereas I associate it with an emotional commitment. E.g., he would not have a problem with me having sex with other men, as long as they were not emotional affairs. (we've discussed this) In some ways I think he would be happy that my sexual needs were being met. Except, I have trouble imagining anything that leads to sex that does not begin with some kind of emotional interest/attachment, so this has never happened. My boyfriend, I think, is really interested in me also being able to fulfill whatever kind of sexual fantasies or interests I have, except-- I don't seem to have many! Or they all seem fairly vanilla, nothing stuff he wouldn't want to do.
5. So I think about everything, and I think of all the people I've met, or the couples I know who have their own problems. Or even all the relationship questions on AskMeFi. It seems that everything else the boyfriend and I have going for us (chiefly, our ability to communicate and be 100% honest with each other about everything; our delight in each other's company) - are really rare! And valuable! I don't think I would meet anyone else I am so compatible with as a best friend, roommate, teammate for life.
Just... in a very literal sense, our sexual desires are not compatible. Someone has to give up something. I have a feeling it might have to be me. And blah blah evolutionary psychology blah blah humans not wired for monogamy blah blah men especially. I know, I know, lizard brain does not overcome a personal choice and decision to commitment you make to your partner. But what if your lizard brain wants a very specific thing your girlfriend can't really fulfill, and this desire is very strong, persistent, and will not go away? [trying to be vague here, I think there is enough info to answer anyway.] Just the idea of my boyfriend having sex with someone else makes me feel terrible, intuitively, but I can't tell how much of that is because of societal norms about monogamy that I've internalized. And then I think about how I believe sex is not the most important part of a relationship that encompasses so much more. So I try to think about opening things up, but I still have a hard time with it. Additionally - I know I have a great deal of trouble validating the legitimacy of my emotional responses to situations and just overall, a really, really strong sense of obligation (to everyone). Does that change things? I can't tell if that's why I'm even considering it, or if I'm just trying to be pragmatic about the situation.
In summary:
1) Do these sound like insurmountable obstacles to you?
2) Should we seek couples counseling? Will someone with more experience with these issues help us find some middle ground?
And--
3) If you are someone who has struggled with the idea of monogamy, but ultimately decided to commit to it, why? Did it work out? If you decided to have an open relationship instead, why, and did it work out? And if you changed your mind about this topic, how did that happen?
You may also e-mail me at thatother3percent@gmail.com.
I know I have a great deal of trouble validating the legitimacy of my emotional responses to situations and just overall, a really, really strong sense of obligation (to everyone).
Just want to point something out to you. You said this about your boyfriend:
But what if your lizard brain wants a very specific thing your girlfriend can't really fulfill, and this desire is very strong, persistent, and will not go away?
It sounds like you are very respectful of his feelings, wants and needs, even if they're not "rational" and just part of a "lizard brain" or whatever. Rather than focusing how he should try to change them or squash them or forget about them, or needing him to somehow justifying them rationally, you are respecting them and looking for a way to work with them.
I think you should be equally respectful of your feelings wants and needs re: monogamy, even if they're not "rational" and they're just part of YOUR "lizard brain" if such a thing exists. You don't have to feel bad about them, squash them, try to forget about them, or feel like you have to "rationally" justify them. Just as you respect the feelings and desires your boyfriend has, respect your own when you're trying to come to a way of working this out.
posted by cairdeas at 2:53 PM on November 8, 2011 [32 favorites]
Just want to point something out to you. You said this about your boyfriend:
But what if your lizard brain wants a very specific thing your girlfriend can't really fulfill, and this desire is very strong, persistent, and will not go away?
It sounds like you are very respectful of his feelings, wants and needs, even if they're not "rational" and just part of a "lizard brain" or whatever. Rather than focusing how he should try to change them or squash them or forget about them, or needing him to somehow justifying them rationally, you are respecting them and looking for a way to work with them.
I think you should be equally respectful of your feelings wants and needs re: monogamy, even if they're not "rational" and they're just part of YOUR "lizard brain" if such a thing exists. You don't have to feel bad about them, squash them, try to forget about them, or feel like you have to "rationally" justify them. Just as you respect the feelings and desires your boyfriend has, respect your own when you're trying to come to a way of working this out.
posted by cairdeas at 2:53 PM on November 8, 2011 [32 favorites]
1) No.
2) Probably.
Afraid I can't answer 3, but I would advise against going down the open relationship route until you feel OK with it. This is very different from rationalising it. Open relationships are totally fine for those situations where everyone involved is on board with the idea. In this case an open relationship is not fine.
Honestly, I think this is his decision to make, helpless as you may feel. You are not OK with him being with other people. If he wants to be with you, he has to essentially relinquish his aspirations to be with others while he is with you. He cannot rely on your feelings changing.
If he is not ready to do that, then he is not yet ready to settle down with you.
posted by dumdidumdum at 2:55 PM on November 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
2) Probably.
Afraid I can't answer 3, but I would advise against going down the open relationship route until you feel OK with it. This is very different from rationalising it. Open relationships are totally fine for those situations where everyone involved is on board with the idea. In this case an open relationship is not fine.
Honestly, I think this is his decision to make, helpless as you may feel. You are not OK with him being with other people. If he wants to be with you, he has to essentially relinquish his aspirations to be with others while he is with you. He cannot rely on your feelings changing.
If he is not ready to do that, then he is not yet ready to settle down with you.
posted by dumdidumdum at 2:55 PM on November 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
But what if your lizard brain wants a very specific thing your girlfriend can't really fulfill, and this desire is very strong, persistent, and will not go away?
Sometimes a little bit goes a long way. Not now is way better than not ever.
posted by StickyCarpet at 2:59 PM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Sometimes a little bit goes a long way. Not now is way better than not ever.
posted by StickyCarpet at 2:59 PM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
"To be more concrete, there are specific fantasies of his that he has every single day that will not go away with time."
Every man has those.
"he would not have a problem with me having sex with other men, as long as they were not emotional affairs."
I realize you've discussed it, but until you're actually having sex with other people it's all just theory. So, even though he may say he'd be fine with it, you might find out the hard way that's not the case. Dangerous territory.
I don't think there's anything wrong with a poly lifestyle for a poly couple. But you're not a poly couple. You're a monogamous woman with a wannabe poly man.
Sounds like doom to me. Please be careful.
posted by 2oh1 at 3:03 PM on November 8, 2011 [4 favorites]
Every man has those.
"he would not have a problem with me having sex with other men, as long as they were not emotional affairs."
I realize you've discussed it, but until you're actually having sex with other people it's all just theory. So, even though he may say he'd be fine with it, you might find out the hard way that's not the case. Dangerous territory.
I don't think there's anything wrong with a poly lifestyle for a poly couple. But you're not a poly couple. You're a monogamous woman with a wannabe poly man.
Sounds like doom to me. Please be careful.
posted by 2oh1 at 3:03 PM on November 8, 2011 [4 favorites]
On the one hand, the idea of non-monogamy makes me physically uncomfortable and distressed.
And you shouldn't feel bad about that - it's a valid preference on an equal footing with your boyfriend's desires and not something to be overcome or pathologized in the context of your relationship.
I know I have a great deal of trouble validating the legitimacy of my emotional responses to situations and just overall, a really, really strong sense of obligation (to everyone).
In this case I do think that's coloring how you feel about the situation. You bring a lot to the table in the relationship too; you're not an obstacle to fulfillment for each of you. If non-monogamy is outside your boundaries, you can put your foot down. If that's a dealbreaker for him, his reaction is outside your control anyway; there's not a compromise solution that occurs here without a lot of hassle.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 3:11 PM on November 8, 2011 [15 favorites]
And you shouldn't feel bad about that - it's a valid preference on an equal footing with your boyfriend's desires and not something to be overcome or pathologized in the context of your relationship.
I know I have a great deal of trouble validating the legitimacy of my emotional responses to situations and just overall, a really, really strong sense of obligation (to everyone).
In this case I do think that's coloring how you feel about the situation. You bring a lot to the table in the relationship too; you're not an obstacle to fulfillment for each of you. If non-monogamy is outside your boundaries, you can put your foot down. If that's a dealbreaker for him, his reaction is outside your control anyway; there's not a compromise solution that occurs here without a lot of hassle.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 3:11 PM on November 8, 2011 [15 favorites]
Unlike 2oh1 (and maybe others) I did not read the question to mean the main problem was that your guy wants to be poly and you do not. I read it has he has a kink you do not share. In allowing him to fulfill his kink, you are considering letting him explore sexually with others. Do I have it?
--
I think to answer this question, it might help to know a bit more about the fantasy. IMHO, some kinks and fetishes are totally harmless, some are the type that are lifelong pursuits, some are the type people generally outgrow over time, and some types escalate into dangerous territory.
I'm about to exaggerate a bit, but I'd hate to tell you to open up your relationship, if say, your guy is into blood sports, or picking up random strangers, or breath play, or anything without a condom. And even the most benign interests can be engaged in a risky or unhealthy manner.
These are extreme examples, of course! You seem very well educated on these matters and I'm sure you are exercising good judgement! It's more the unforeseen consequences that I am concerned about.
You'll get plenty of anecdata for making it work if folks even know what direction this fantasy skews - is it worship, or pain, humiliation, cross-dressing, what??
-----
I don't like the tone of resignation at the end of your question. I wish you weren't feeling that.
Does your guy know how much you are struggling with this, and that you are putting his needs maybe above your own? If he knew, would he approve or therwise by OK with you putting yourself out like that?
Just some things to consider.
posted by jbenben at 3:20 PM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
--
I think to answer this question, it might help to know a bit more about the fantasy. IMHO, some kinks and fetishes are totally harmless, some are the type that are lifelong pursuits, some are the type people generally outgrow over time, and some types escalate into dangerous territory.
I'm about to exaggerate a bit, but I'd hate to tell you to open up your relationship, if say, your guy is into blood sports, or picking up random strangers, or breath play, or anything without a condom. And even the most benign interests can be engaged in a risky or unhealthy manner.
These are extreme examples, of course! You seem very well educated on these matters and I'm sure you are exercising good judgement! It's more the unforeseen consequences that I am concerned about.
You'll get plenty of anecdata for making it work if folks even know what direction this fantasy skews - is it worship, or pain, humiliation, cross-dressing, what??
-----
I don't like the tone of resignation at the end of your question. I wish you weren't feeling that.
Does your guy know how much you are struggling with this, and that you are putting his needs maybe above your own? If he knew, would he approve or therwise by OK with you putting yourself out like that?
Just some things to consider.
posted by jbenben at 3:20 PM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
1. It doesn't sound like you guys are totally missmatched. You're indifferent, not disgusted, right?
2. It sure wouldn't hurt, right? Maybe it'll help you guys become even better lovers to each other and that would be pretty keen, right?
The real questions is- what and how much does he need, when does he need it, and are you going to forever feel like you're "taking one for the team."
If he absolutly needs to get whipped two times a week for twenty min, and you're not getting anything out of it at all ever- are you going to be able to keep that shit up for the next thirty years without getting bitter? If you can make the experence a pleasureable one for you, find a way to get ramped up by watching him getting so hot, it'll be fine.
As for other women- you don't have to have "good" reasons for not wanting to open it up. You can have whatever kind of rules you want for your relationship- total out-law of outside contact, or only with Pro-dommes, or just watching other couples what the fuck ever. if it makes you quesy, that's all you need to know for now- and that's cool 'cause it seems like your bf is totally fine with that.
posted by Blisterlips at 3:23 PM on November 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
2. It sure wouldn't hurt, right? Maybe it'll help you guys become even better lovers to each other and that would be pretty keen, right?
The real questions is- what and how much does he need, when does he need it, and are you going to forever feel like you're "taking one for the team."
If he absolutly needs to get whipped two times a week for twenty min, and you're not getting anything out of it at all ever- are you going to be able to keep that shit up for the next thirty years without getting bitter? If you can make the experence a pleasureable one for you, find a way to get ramped up by watching him getting so hot, it'll be fine.
As for other women- you don't have to have "good" reasons for not wanting to open it up. You can have whatever kind of rules you want for your relationship- total out-law of outside contact, or only with Pro-dommes, or just watching other couples what the fuck ever. if it makes you quesy, that's all you need to know for now- and that's cool 'cause it seems like your bf is totally fine with that.
posted by Blisterlips at 3:23 PM on November 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
"I know I have a great deal of trouble validating the legitimacy of my emotional responses to situations and just overall, a really, really strong sense of obligation (to everyone). " Work on this. This sense of obligation thing is at the root of most American gender clusterfluffs. Women who have been indoctrinated need to fight fight fight to understand the difference between enlightened human compassion and being a doormat.
Re 3) I was never anti monogamy, so much. Just not up for it. And the men I was with who wanted to argue about that were not people I wanted to share my life with as companions except for this one sex thing, they were men I didn't want to be tied to. I have no idea where your man is. He may really really really think the sex thing is minor, like fantasy football or fishing that he can go off and do on his own. Or he may be like me and not realize it. But I think between your urge to be good girl and his idea that he needs this specific sexual need met like he needs air y'all are not in a good place.
Therapy might help, but it might help you see that you are just friends.
I have a bias - I think sex is major. If you feel like you have lower drive or are plain vanilla or whatever, maybe you should ask yourself if that's you, or if that's you in this relationship. Couples can have a great sex life when one of them has significant physical disabilities. If you're having trouble getting the sex right while you're both young and fit, I think a long hard look at the relationship is needed. Something is impairing your intimacy.
Or he's a horndog and you are not. Like I said, I have a bias.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 3:25 PM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Re 3) I was never anti monogamy, so much. Just not up for it. And the men I was with who wanted to argue about that were not people I wanted to share my life with as companions except for this one sex thing, they were men I didn't want to be tied to. I have no idea where your man is. He may really really really think the sex thing is minor, like fantasy football or fishing that he can go off and do on his own. Or he may be like me and not realize it. But I think between your urge to be good girl and his idea that he needs this specific sexual need met like he needs air y'all are not in a good place.
Therapy might help, but it might help you see that you are just friends.
I have a bias - I think sex is major. If you feel like you have lower drive or are plain vanilla or whatever, maybe you should ask yourself if that's you, or if that's you in this relationship. Couples can have a great sex life when one of them has significant physical disabilities. If you're having trouble getting the sex right while you're both young and fit, I think a long hard look at the relationship is needed. Something is impairing your intimacy.
Or he's a horndog and you are not. Like I said, I have a bias.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 3:25 PM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
That you are both in your mid-twenties and you've been together 7 years tells me a lot here. I think you both have some unrealistic expectations because this is the only long-term relationship you've probably had.
First of all, you've tried being GGG, and monogamy is a sticking point for you. That's fine, btw. Your relationship started on that basis, and it is your partner who now wants to change the rules on you.
Your partner fantasizes about having sex with another woman. That does not make him a bad guy, either. It's a common fantasy, as I'm sure you know. But no matter what Dan Savage says, this rarely happens in real-life. Lots of fantasies never become realities, and most of us accept that.
This is not the same thing as an open relationship or polygamy, by the way. I've seen those arrangements work because all the partners feel the relationship meets their needs.
What bothers me is that this is clearly not at all about your needs. Although he says he would be fine if you were with another man--well, he knows that's not likely, doesn't he? You've never strayed in the last seven years. So it's pretty easy to say now, "I'd be fine with that!" But when it came right down to it, if you said, "Hey, I want to have sex with our friend Ted, doggie style on our dining room table," or whatever, I think he'd find that he had all sorts of emotions surfacing.
I've been asked to be a "third" to a couple before (turned it down), and I've thought about bringing a (totally non-existent fantasy) woman into my own marriage, which I have no doubt my husband would think would be fantastic.
But actually doing it, that's a HUGE change. And it would not be fair for me to expect him to just be okay with that. If we ever went there we would suss out all the boundaries and the feelings beforehand, because if you can't communicate that stuff upfront, people get hurt. And I don't want to hurt my partner, so I wouldn't pressure him.
And if he wanted something different in our relationship, I wouldn't act on it if I felt he was pressuring me, either. Your partner likes kinkier stuff than you and you don't want to deny that side of him, and that's very supportive of you! And you have differing libidos. If you had stopped having sex with him, or if you used to have the really kinky sex all the time and you said "no more", I'd have another answer for you. But he's done fine with the frequency, and without the kinkier stuff or sex with another woman for seven years, so why is this coming up now?
It sounds to me like maybe he is pressuring you now, when he wasn't before. And I can understand your anxiousness and hesitation, because if I were you I'd be wondering what changed.
I've known situations, frankly, very much like yours, where the one partner suddenly feels put on the spot, pressured, asked to "give" more, and it's been because the partner who suggests the change actually has a specific person in mind. That's a really dishonest way to go about it.
And I'm sorry to say that the response of the "giver", either way, ended badly. Go along, and feel used and betrayed, or don't go along, and maybe the other partner goes behind your back anyway, or pressures you until you break up over it.
I'm sorry, that's just been my experience.
posted by misha at 3:38 PM on November 8, 2011 [7 favorites]
First of all, you've tried being GGG, and monogamy is a sticking point for you. That's fine, btw. Your relationship started on that basis, and it is your partner who now wants to change the rules on you.
Your partner fantasizes about having sex with another woman. That does not make him a bad guy, either. It's a common fantasy, as I'm sure you know. But no matter what Dan Savage says, this rarely happens in real-life. Lots of fantasies never become realities, and most of us accept that.
This is not the same thing as an open relationship or polygamy, by the way. I've seen those arrangements work because all the partners feel the relationship meets their needs.
What bothers me is that this is clearly not at all about your needs. Although he says he would be fine if you were with another man--well, he knows that's not likely, doesn't he? You've never strayed in the last seven years. So it's pretty easy to say now, "I'd be fine with that!" But when it came right down to it, if you said, "Hey, I want to have sex with our friend Ted, doggie style on our dining room table," or whatever, I think he'd find that he had all sorts of emotions surfacing.
I've been asked to be a "third" to a couple before (turned it down), and I've thought about bringing a (totally non-existent fantasy) woman into my own marriage, which I have no doubt my husband would think would be fantastic.
But actually doing it, that's a HUGE change. And it would not be fair for me to expect him to just be okay with that. If we ever went there we would suss out all the boundaries and the feelings beforehand, because if you can't communicate that stuff upfront, people get hurt. And I don't want to hurt my partner, so I wouldn't pressure him.
And if he wanted something different in our relationship, I wouldn't act on it if I felt he was pressuring me, either. Your partner likes kinkier stuff than you and you don't want to deny that side of him, and that's very supportive of you! And you have differing libidos. If you had stopped having sex with him, or if you used to have the really kinky sex all the time and you said "no more", I'd have another answer for you. But he's done fine with the frequency, and without the kinkier stuff or sex with another woman for seven years, so why is this coming up now?
It sounds to me like maybe he is pressuring you now, when he wasn't before. And I can understand your anxiousness and hesitation, because if I were you I'd be wondering what changed.
I've known situations, frankly, very much like yours, where the one partner suddenly feels put on the spot, pressured, asked to "give" more, and it's been because the partner who suggests the change actually has a specific person in mind. That's a really dishonest way to go about it.
And I'm sorry to say that the response of the "giver", either way, ended badly. Go along, and feel used and betrayed, or don't go along, and maybe the other partner goes behind your back anyway, or pressures you until you break up over it.
I'm sorry, that's just been my experience.
posted by misha at 3:38 PM on November 8, 2011 [7 favorites]
I don't think it's healthy to let your perception of his needs outweigh your perception of your needs just because they're his needs and not yours. Amongst other things, it's not particularly pragmatic, because sooner or later you're going to run into a situation where your needs just flat out have to win, and you won't have any kind of a framework for that, having learned only to let everyone else have their way just because they're not you.
And, IMHO, social norms you have internalized are just as much a part of you as anything else. It's OK to consciously choose to reject them for specific reason X (you think they're irrational, you think they're inconsistent with other social norms you like better, etc.,) but there's no obligation to do so just because of where you got them.
I am pro-monogamy, but mostly what I'm feeling here is concern for the fact that you seem to think his needs are more important than yours, I swear.
posted by SMPA at 3:41 PM on November 8, 2011 [6 favorites]
And, IMHO, social norms you have internalized are just as much a part of you as anything else. It's OK to consciously choose to reject them for specific reason X (you think they're irrational, you think they're inconsistent with other social norms you like better, etc.,) but there's no obligation to do so just because of where you got them.
I am pro-monogamy, but mostly what I'm feeling here is concern for the fact that you seem to think his needs are more important than yours, I swear.
posted by SMPA at 3:41 PM on November 8, 2011 [6 favorites]
I want to second this particular statement, because it's important:
You said: "On the one hand, the idea of non-monogamy makes me physically uncomfortable and distressed."
Inspector.Gadget replied: "And you shouldn't feel bad about that"
I'd favorite that a thousand times if I could.
You should really be thinking about what you want in a relationship and evaluating the potential here under that lens. How would you feel if your friends knew your husband was out having sex with other women? How would you feel if your husband had a date with someone else, even if it's just for sex? Surely, he isn't going to just pick someone out of the phone book and have sex with her (or him?), right? There will probably be dates, etc, beforehand. Are you positive you would be ok with that? Open relationships only work if both people are on the same page.
I know two sexually open couples.
One marriage works because they're both poly, and because they have rules that they live by, such as "no sex with someone the other hasn't met" and "Wednesdays and Saturdays are off limits for being with anybody else. Those are 'our' nights together." They've been together for nearly 20 years and their rules keep the whole poly thing working for them. They're both very happy.
The other marriage doesn't work at all. She is very kinky and he is not. He's afraid she'll leave him, so he lets her have sex with other people. To say that he's miserable in what his relationship has become is an understatement... but, like I said... he's afraid he'll lose her, and with kids and the house and blah blah blah, the situation is complicated, but he feels trapped in it now.
I think that first couple will live happily ever after. The second couple has already been separated and back together at least once, and they're miserable.
I hate the idea that wanting monogamy is somehow a bad thing. Holy cow, what a ridiculous thought! If you want a loving monogamous relationship, that's awesome.
I also don't think being open or poly is bad either though. Instead - and this is just my opinion - I believe that these are things that define a relationship, not a person. If you both want an open marriage, it could work. If you both want monogamy, it could work. If you're not both on the same page... that's a very big red flag.
posted by 2oh1 at 3:51 PM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
You said: "On the one hand, the idea of non-monogamy makes me physically uncomfortable and distressed."
Inspector.Gadget replied: "And you shouldn't feel bad about that"
I'd favorite that a thousand times if I could.
You should really be thinking about what you want in a relationship and evaluating the potential here under that lens. How would you feel if your friends knew your husband was out having sex with other women? How would you feel if your husband had a date with someone else, even if it's just for sex? Surely, he isn't going to just pick someone out of the phone book and have sex with her (or him?), right? There will probably be dates, etc, beforehand. Are you positive you would be ok with that? Open relationships only work if both people are on the same page.
I know two sexually open couples.
One marriage works because they're both poly, and because they have rules that they live by, such as "no sex with someone the other hasn't met" and "Wednesdays and Saturdays are off limits for being with anybody else. Those are 'our' nights together." They've been together for nearly 20 years and their rules keep the whole poly thing working for them. They're both very happy.
The other marriage doesn't work at all. She is very kinky and he is not. He's afraid she'll leave him, so he lets her have sex with other people. To say that he's miserable in what his relationship has become is an understatement... but, like I said... he's afraid he'll lose her, and with kids and the house and blah blah blah, the situation is complicated, but he feels trapped in it now.
I think that first couple will live happily ever after. The second couple has already been separated and back together at least once, and they're miserable.
I hate the idea that wanting monogamy is somehow a bad thing. Holy cow, what a ridiculous thought! If you want a loving monogamous relationship, that's awesome.
I also don't think being open or poly is bad either though. Instead - and this is just my opinion - I believe that these are things that define a relationship, not a person. If you both want an open marriage, it could work. If you both want monogamy, it could work. If you're not both on the same page... that's a very big red flag.
posted by 2oh1 at 3:51 PM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
While your situation isn't insurmountable its challenging. I agree that there are many good things about your relationship but sexual incompatibility and wanting to sleep with other people equates to a big problem especially if you plan on getting married. In the end if you want a monogamous relationship and he doesnt, then I dont think things will work. Therapy may help to compromise but dont know how much. Monogamy works for me, but let me say a few things...my wife and I have had some sex problems mostly with the frequency of sex. I want it more then she does. And it can make things very hard. But she tries to compromise and it helps. Have I thought about other women? Sure Im human. But Ive never cheated on my wife. Also just something else to think about...my wife hates blow jobs. So I dont ask for them. Do i miss them? Yes. But I dont go seeking them from another person. I accept that shes uncomfortable with them. My point here is that I love my wife. If she doesnt like blow jobs then so be it. In answer to your last question, Ive never known of an open relationship that worked.
posted by ljs30 at 3:56 PM on November 8, 2011
posted by ljs30 at 3:56 PM on November 8, 2011
Just the idea of my boyfriend having sex with someone else makes me feel terrible, intuitively, but I can't tell how much of that is because of societal norms about monogamy that I've internalized
I think sometimes those of us who really want to be GGG, or whatever, feel like we should be okay with being in non-monogamous relationships because otherwise we're UPTIGHT and just INTERNALIZING SOCIETAL NORMS! When maybe we are just...wired to be monogamous. It's okay to want and like something that is considered a societal norm. Monogamy is NOT a bad thing if it makes you and your partner happy. And if someone is making you feel square (to be retro about it) or guilty because you want to be monogamous, that's very uncool.
I personally am very monogamous. If my bf was sleeping with someone else, I'd be REALLY unhappy. He knows this, and he feels the same way. On the other hand, one of my very best friends is in an open relationship and it works great for him, and his partner, and I think that is awesome. It should be about what works best for BOTH of you.
I do think you guys are pretty young, and at your age, when one or the other of you particularly feels he or she has a lot of other options, sexually-speaking... a sexual incompatibility can be tough to overcome.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 4:02 PM on November 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
I think sometimes those of us who really want to be GGG, or whatever, feel like we should be okay with being in non-monogamous relationships because otherwise we're UPTIGHT and just INTERNALIZING SOCIETAL NORMS! When maybe we are just...wired to be monogamous. It's okay to want and like something that is considered a societal norm. Monogamy is NOT a bad thing if it makes you and your partner happy. And if someone is making you feel square (to be retro about it) or guilty because you want to be monogamous, that's very uncool.
I personally am very monogamous. If my bf was sleeping with someone else, I'd be REALLY unhappy. He knows this, and he feels the same way. On the other hand, one of my very best friends is in an open relationship and it works great for him, and his partner, and I think that is awesome. It should be about what works best for BOTH of you.
I do think you guys are pretty young, and at your age, when one or the other of you particularly feels he or she has a lot of other options, sexually-speaking... a sexual incompatibility can be tough to overcome.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 4:02 PM on November 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Ok you have the right to require that your partner is monogamous, but can you see it as a plus that he has brought this up to you? He is communicating his fantasies and that is great. Please don't feel pressure to be in a monagamish relationship if that is not cool with you but your SO is trying to be open and communicative.
Maybe can you say let's put this on the back burner and I will be GGG in our relationship with each other alone and then continue to think about it. For me I was definitely "no way can you touch another woman" at the beginning but now I'm so secure in the relationship that it wouldn't bother me. It may take you longer or you may never be okay with it but as long as he truly knows that yes you will consider but also yes it may never happen all is ok
posted by boobjob at 4:12 PM on November 8, 2011
Maybe can you say let's put this on the back burner and I will be GGG in our relationship with each other alone and then continue to think about it. For me I was definitely "no way can you touch another woman" at the beginning but now I'm so secure in the relationship that it wouldn't bother me. It may take you longer or you may never be okay with it but as long as he truly knows that yes you will consider but also yes it may never happen all is ok
posted by boobjob at 4:12 PM on November 8, 2011
Blisterlips covered all the major points.
It's all a matter of degree and the specific circumstances of your situation. No one on the internet can tell you if you can put up with his kinks or not. It's up to YOU to decide if his requests are too difficult to fulfill and up to HIM to decide if the rules you demand are those he can live by.
What you can do is try to be as honest as possible about your needs and what you're comfortable with. He can decide if he can live with that or not.
posted by cupcake1337 at 4:46 PM on November 8, 2011
It's all a matter of degree and the specific circumstances of your situation. No one on the internet can tell you if you can put up with his kinks or not. It's up to YOU to decide if his requests are too difficult to fulfill and up to HIM to decide if the rules you demand are those he can live by.
What you can do is try to be as honest as possible about your needs and what you're comfortable with. He can decide if he can live with that or not.
posted by cupcake1337 at 4:46 PM on November 8, 2011
1) Maybe. An unfulfilled kink can be very hard to get past if sex is a priority for him. Depends.
2) Yes. The sooner you clarify the 1) part, the less there is to lose if it turns out "yes".
3) Gone both ways, can't say what "worked out" until life's over and we're reviewing the footage. But don't try open unless you're both into it. Even then it's quite a bit more challenging than you expect.
posted by ead at 4:57 PM on November 8, 2011
2) Yes. The sooner you clarify the 1) part, the less there is to lose if it turns out "yes".
3) Gone both ways, can't say what "worked out" until life's over and we're reviewing the footage. But don't try open unless you're both into it. Even then it's quite a bit more challenging than you expect.
posted by ead at 4:57 PM on November 8, 2011
It's funny, I read a lot of relationship drama questions on AskMe, but this is the first time I felt really bad for someone. I dunno, I think it'd help if you could discuss this with a friend, maybe (I mean, a really close friend). I'd want to be there to like, just listen or knock my friend's head straight if she was considering/struggling with these things. But anyway.
Put the stuff about feeling obliged in BIG BOLD LETTERS in your mind, and then reread what you said with that in mind. Just keep thinking to yourself at the end of every sentence, "...and the person who said this is a people-pleaser". I mean, it really makes a difference, especially when you say stuff like, 'maybe I've been brainwashed' or what have you.
Maybe you have been, but maybe your SO had been too. Maybe we all have been. So?
In my first relationship, when it was the first time I felt I 'clicked' with someone intellectually, I really thought that his ideas on so many things were reasonable and intelligent, so this stuff about polyamory made sense too. I mean, isn't it natural to love many people? It makes sense. We all care about more than one person, even if it's not romantic. I mean, sex wasn't even in the picture (then); he was just saying he couldn't get over his last gf, and why didn't I understand? How small-minded, right?
Oh man. Now I want to beat my head against the wall even remembering it. Really, people who're self-righteous about polyamory are like militant vegans-- religious. They're religious about it. That's all there is to it. (Better than saying 'violently prejudiced', but either way). So, also, keep that in mind. Prejudice and bias is a funny thing-- it's so easy to think you're a rational person with that idea too, 'cause after all, you're rational about many other things. So, I mean, even if other people may disagree on you with this one thing, it's their problem, right? Of course. It's easy to think it, and it's easy for someone with an urge to please others to contribute to this edifice.
It's easy, but please don't. As for your relationship-- all I can say is... I don't know. It really depends on what kind of person your bf is in a more general sense. Sacrifice doesn't have to be this awful thing-- for you, it seems, it is really an expression of love-- but people with strong egos have a very hard time not resenting anything they give that's difficult. Ultimately, while I'm very pro-GGG and sexual fulfillment & expression, etc, I personally consider the ability to sacrifice to be an important test of a relationship's strength; that is, in a sense you'd be being selfish by taking every opportunity to be the one bending, 'cause he has no chance to prove his love. That's the realm of expressing love through action rather than simply communication in relationships-- both equally important. And how do you express love through action? You demonstrate that the other person's well-being matters to you as much or more than yours; and just like communication, both people need to demonstrate it.
The tricky thing about action in this sense is that there's a difference between sacrifice and self-denial: if you're denying your ego, your needs, your self, it's not the same as valuing someone else. You can only give of yourself if you have boundaries you won't-- can't-- cross. Something that causes you physical pain seems like your body telling you: this is where my boundary is. You can't not listen to that and remain in a healthy relationship.
I can't tell you if your bf needs this outlet on this bone-deep level, or if it's an obsession (so no wonder he fixates), or what, but I can tell you that thinking of sex as emotional vs transactional is one of those value-based things you said you share, generally, and this one's as important as views on money. It determines a lot. So that's what I wonder if either of you can-- or should-- attempt to change. Ultimately, without making a value-judgment, I think viewing sex as transactional threatens someone's capacity for healthy long-term relationships, while viewing it as relational supports that capacity-- so in a sense, you're made for couplehood and he isn't. Can he change? Some guys claim they do, especially with age (ie, after 35, after the edges blunt) but most show they don't. It's a question of will-power, commitment, and the capacity to think past your biases and consider feeling instead. 'Don't think: just feel'. It's harder than you'd think; if anything will 'fix' this, it'd be counseling with an eye towards enhancing this capacity in him.
posted by reenka at 5:13 PM on November 8, 2011 [6 favorites]
Put the stuff about feeling obliged in BIG BOLD LETTERS in your mind, and then reread what you said with that in mind. Just keep thinking to yourself at the end of every sentence, "...and the person who said this is a people-pleaser". I mean, it really makes a difference, especially when you say stuff like, 'maybe I've been brainwashed' or what have you.
Maybe you have been, but maybe your SO had been too. Maybe we all have been. So?
In my first relationship, when it was the first time I felt I 'clicked' with someone intellectually, I really thought that his ideas on so many things were reasonable and intelligent, so this stuff about polyamory made sense too. I mean, isn't it natural to love many people? It makes sense. We all care about more than one person, even if it's not romantic. I mean, sex wasn't even in the picture (then); he was just saying he couldn't get over his last gf, and why didn't I understand? How small-minded, right?
Oh man. Now I want to beat my head against the wall even remembering it. Really, people who're self-righteous about polyamory are like militant vegans-- religious. They're religious about it. That's all there is to it. (Better than saying 'violently prejudiced', but either way). So, also, keep that in mind. Prejudice and bias is a funny thing-- it's so easy to think you're a rational person with that idea too, 'cause after all, you're rational about many other things. So, I mean, even if other people may disagree on you with this one thing, it's their problem, right? Of course. It's easy to think it, and it's easy for someone with an urge to please others to contribute to this edifice.
It's easy, but please don't. As for your relationship-- all I can say is... I don't know. It really depends on what kind of person your bf is in a more general sense. Sacrifice doesn't have to be this awful thing-- for you, it seems, it is really an expression of love-- but people with strong egos have a very hard time not resenting anything they give that's difficult. Ultimately, while I'm very pro-GGG and sexual fulfillment & expression, etc, I personally consider the ability to sacrifice to be an important test of a relationship's strength; that is, in a sense you'd be being selfish by taking every opportunity to be the one bending, 'cause he has no chance to prove his love. That's the realm of expressing love through action rather than simply communication in relationships-- both equally important. And how do you express love through action? You demonstrate that the other person's well-being matters to you as much or more than yours; and just like communication, both people need to demonstrate it.
The tricky thing about action in this sense is that there's a difference between sacrifice and self-denial: if you're denying your ego, your needs, your self, it's not the same as valuing someone else. You can only give of yourself if you have boundaries you won't-- can't-- cross. Something that causes you physical pain seems like your body telling you: this is where my boundary is. You can't not listen to that and remain in a healthy relationship.
I can't tell you if your bf needs this outlet on this bone-deep level, or if it's an obsession (so no wonder he fixates), or what, but I can tell you that thinking of sex as emotional vs transactional is one of those value-based things you said you share, generally, and this one's as important as views on money. It determines a lot. So that's what I wonder if either of you can-- or should-- attempt to change. Ultimately, without making a value-judgment, I think viewing sex as transactional threatens someone's capacity for healthy long-term relationships, while viewing it as relational supports that capacity-- so in a sense, you're made for couplehood and he isn't. Can he change? Some guys claim they do, especially with age (ie, after 35, after the edges blunt) but most show they don't. It's a question of will-power, commitment, and the capacity to think past your biases and consider feeling instead. 'Don't think: just feel'. It's harder than you'd think; if anything will 'fix' this, it'd be counseling with an eye towards enhancing this capacity in him.
posted by reenka at 5:13 PM on November 8, 2011 [6 favorites]
nthing those who say that which fetish it is matters. If it is something that is possible to get without sexual interaction (such as domme/sub fetishes or feet), why not try that? If it's a particular sexual thing, maybe you can find some way to get into it. If it's a body type that you don't have, maybe you could watch porn of it together. Try to explore the space between GGG and non-monogamy and see what you find.
posted by carolinaherrera at 5:53 PM on November 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by carolinaherrera at 5:53 PM on November 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
On the one hand, the idea of non-monogamy makes me physically uncomfortable and distressed.
He would not have a problem with me having sex with other men, as long as they were not emotional affairs.
They all seem fairly vanilla, nothing stuff he wouldn't want to do.
Someone has to give up something. I have a feeling it might have to be me.
And blah blah evolutionary psychology blah blah humans not wired for monogamy blah blah men especially.
Others have said it already, but I feel it just bears repeating: you are not a prude, abnormal, in denial, delusional, or anything else for preferring monogamy. The evolutionary psychology about lizard brains is . . . not very good science (humans are mostly serial monogamists, anyway). I've known enough people pressured into poly relationships by partners to know that in these cases, they often get a big heap of judgment and guilt. Wanting a committed partner is fine, reasonable, and, ultimately okay--though if it's not what your partner wants, you have some hard conversations ahead of you.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:44 PM on November 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
He would not have a problem with me having sex with other men, as long as they were not emotional affairs.
They all seem fairly vanilla, nothing stuff he wouldn't want to do.
Someone has to give up something. I have a feeling it might have to be me.
And blah blah evolutionary psychology blah blah humans not wired for monogamy blah blah men especially.
Others have said it already, but I feel it just bears repeating: you are not a prude, abnormal, in denial, delusional, or anything else for preferring monogamy. The evolutionary psychology about lizard brains is . . . not very good science (humans are mostly serial monogamists, anyway). I've known enough people pressured into poly relationships by partners to know that in these cases, they often get a big heap of judgment and guilt. Wanting a committed partner is fine, reasonable, and, ultimately okay--though if it's not what your partner wants, you have some hard conversations ahead of you.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:44 PM on November 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
evolutionary psychology about lizard brains is . . . not very good science (humans are mostly serial monogamists, anyway).
Credible evolutionary psychology thinkers actually lead to this same conclusion; that humans are general monogamists. So, science is actually behind you as well, OP. Your preferences don't need to be justified, but you can feel confident they aren't unnatural.
posted by spaltavian at 9:02 PM on November 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
Credible evolutionary psychology thinkers actually lead to this same conclusion; that humans are general monogamists. So, science is actually behind you as well, OP. Your preferences don't need to be justified, but you can feel confident they aren't unnatural.
posted by spaltavian at 9:02 PM on November 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
I can't find the last thread I saw where some poor woman was being harangued by her man to cave in and do something sexual she wasn't okay with, but...these situations do not end well for you. You will feel like shit and lose all happiness in your relationship if you are selling your soul to keep him. I am watching a friend of mine do this daily and it never gets better and it always gets worse. I think she'd be better off single. Depending on how much he's forcing this with you, you might be too.
Why is this coming up now, and how badly is he harassing you to change your mind after 7 years? I know, it could be some kind of last minute "oh my god, if I marry her I can't get the kinky sex fantasy of my dreams" thing, but if he's suddenly upping the ante now it makes me wonder if there's more to it.
You can't stand sharing him, or doing his fetish. You're miserable considering it. Either he gives up his lifelong daily fantasy of whatever it is (like well...everybody does at some point or other, probably) because he'd rather have you, or he'd rather have the fantasy than you. Them's the breaks.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:21 PM on November 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Why is this coming up now, and how badly is he harassing you to change your mind after 7 years? I know, it could be some kind of last minute "oh my god, if I marry her I can't get the kinky sex fantasy of my dreams" thing, but if he's suddenly upping the ante now it makes me wonder if there's more to it.
You can't stand sharing him, or doing his fetish. You're miserable considering it. Either he gives up his lifelong daily fantasy of whatever it is (like well...everybody does at some point or other, probably) because he'd rather have you, or he'd rather have the fantasy than you. Them's the breaks.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:21 PM on November 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Just to add to what others have said; I'm an Evolutionary Anthropologist and humans, as a species, are socially monogamous. Unlike our nearest cousins, we form pairbonds. Like most socially monogamous species that form pairbonds, we do have extrapair copulations, but often these are done in secret without knowledge of the other partner. We're serially socially monogamous, which means that we don't naturally mate for life, but our pairbonds survive longer than most pairbonded species as we don't form them around a seasonal mating. Despite what Dan Savage and others have trumpeted, I don't believe that all humans are naturally non-monogamous and that its ridiculous or wrong to insist on monogamy. I also don't believe that males are more naturally non-monogamous than females. As late as the 70s, researchers couldn't believe that females sought out extrapair copulations. Early studies of Drosophila suggested that males gain from extrapair copulations while females suffer, a statement which is still regarded as true by many. However, it turned out that they had studied the one odd species where this is true - and only partially so. More and more evidence shows that promiscuity has many benefits for females, even human females.
That being said, monogamy or lack thereof has varied wildly between and within human populations. I suspect that the difference within populations are due to the same reason that prairie voles are monogamous while montane voles are not. When humans and prairie voles have sex (but not in montane voles), vasopressin and oxytocin release into the brain causing bonding. Some people, for whatever reason, bond more through sex than others. If you are one of these people, your partner needs to accept that.
I'd suggest seeing a therapist to work this out. Unfortunately, it's been my experience that these relationships generally don't work as one partner is left unfulfilled. He needs to fully commit to monogamy if that is what you need in a relationship.
posted by avagoyle at 9:55 PM on November 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
That being said, monogamy or lack thereof has varied wildly between and within human populations. I suspect that the difference within populations are due to the same reason that prairie voles are monogamous while montane voles are not. When humans and prairie voles have sex (but not in montane voles), vasopressin and oxytocin release into the brain causing bonding. Some people, for whatever reason, bond more through sex than others. If you are one of these people, your partner needs to accept that.
I'd suggest seeing a therapist to work this out. Unfortunately, it's been my experience that these relationships generally don't work as one partner is left unfulfilled. He needs to fully commit to monogamy if that is what you need in a relationship.
posted by avagoyle at 9:55 PM on November 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
Also, he has brought up the possibility of having his interests fulfilled by people outside the relationship. I told him I did not want that. He respects my opinion, and I fully trust that he will continue to do this, but I do worry that it may not be sustainable. To be more concrete, there are specific fantasies of his that he has every single day that will not go away with time.
Does he worry that it may not be sustainable? Is this a major problem for him? What does he think about the implications of marrying you and never having these fantasies fulfilled either by you or anyone else? Have you discussed this in depth and he's either directly said that it could be a problem or indirectly given you specific reasons to worry-- or is this just your own sense of obligation feeling like he deserves to have these fantasies fulfilled and/or your own sense of anxiety about the implications? Unless there are some underlying issues that make you doubt him, it seems like he's the one who has a problem with the status quo so the onus is on him to figure out if this is too big of a problem for him to live with-- maybe it's something where he just shrugs and says "that's disappointing, but this relationship is awesome and not worth jeopardizing because of this, it's a tradeoff I'm willing to make"-- or if he thinks it really is going to be a serious problem for him and interfere with him being able to commit to you, then you can talk and work together to figure out next steps and what could be workable for you both, but you don't need to be preemptively bending over backwards and sacrificing your own comfort and feelings to give him his ideal sex life.
posted by EmilyClimbs at 10:58 PM on November 8, 2011
Does he worry that it may not be sustainable? Is this a major problem for him? What does he think about the implications of marrying you and never having these fantasies fulfilled either by you or anyone else? Have you discussed this in depth and he's either directly said that it could be a problem or indirectly given you specific reasons to worry-- or is this just your own sense of obligation feeling like he deserves to have these fantasies fulfilled and/or your own sense of anxiety about the implications? Unless there are some underlying issues that make you doubt him, it seems like he's the one who has a problem with the status quo so the onus is on him to figure out if this is too big of a problem for him to live with-- maybe it's something where he just shrugs and says "that's disappointing, but this relationship is awesome and not worth jeopardizing because of this, it's a tradeoff I'm willing to make"-- or if he thinks it really is going to be a serious problem for him and interfere with him being able to commit to you, then you can talk and work together to figure out next steps and what could be workable for you both, but you don't need to be preemptively bending over backwards and sacrificing your own comfort and feelings to give him his ideal sex life.
posted by EmilyClimbs at 10:58 PM on November 8, 2011
jenfullmoon -- is this the thread you couldn't find? You had quite an interesting comment in that thread.
posted by jayder at 4:40 AM on November 9, 2011
posted by jayder at 4:40 AM on November 9, 2011
Mod note: From the OP:
1. Not sure where people are getting 7 years from - I said we were both in our 20s and that we had been together for several years.posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:15 AM on November 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
2. Boyfriend's interests are: mild dom/sub power stuff (no whipping or blood sports!), attraction to a specific body type I don't have. Generally indifferent towards the former, latter is the bigger problem.
3. Boyfriend is not pressuring me at all right now to do anything I do not want to do. Rather, I fear that what we have now is this kind of facade that is not sustainable. I think boyfriend wants to worry about that later, honestly. He is okay with what we have now, but he has made it pretty clear to me that his specific desires won't ever go away and that whenever he talks to me about these kinds of things, a small, persistent part of him hopes that one day I'll just be like "sure, do whatever you want," He is very clear that this should not be taken as some kind of obligation - it's just honesty on his part. I suppose the trouble is when you say something like that to someone dispositionally obliging/guilty.
4. Thank you for the clarification regarding evolutionary psychology. And thank you in general for such thoughtful, kind responses!
5. In a concrete sense, the suggestion about exploring the space between GGG and non-monogamy is probably one of the most helpful. However, I have very much taken others' suggestions about validating my emotional response/attitude to heart.
OP, I apologize for the "seven" years derail because I think I started that and it was just my having misread the word "several"!
I am glad that you realize your emotional response is perfectly valid, and that you've found some answers here helpful for moving forward.
posted by misha at 7:31 AM on November 9, 2011
I am glad that you realize your emotional response is perfectly valid, and that you've found some answers here helpful for moving forward.
posted by misha at 7:31 AM on November 9, 2011
If I forget to email you in the next few days, please ping me at the address in my profile. I have a lot to say on this topic, specifically the D/s stuff.
posted by desjardins at 8:11 AM on November 9, 2011
posted by desjardins at 8:11 AM on November 9, 2011
Oh. This is easy.
A successful couple I know (great jobs, kids, together 20+ years) the husband is a sub and wife just isn't into it at all. He goes to a professional Domme once or twice per month for a session.
You (he) need to find someone reputable - I'm sure the folks over a fetlife can help. There are professional submissives as well, in case he's the Dom.
Lifestylers are a whole 'nother ball of wax, IMHO. As a beginner, I'm not sure your guy can or should try to play safely in that arena.
But hell yes, he should session with a professional. There is no shame in this!
posted by jbenben at 8:56 AM on November 9, 2011
A successful couple I know (great jobs, kids, together 20+ years) the husband is a sub and wife just isn't into it at all. He goes to a professional Domme once or twice per month for a session.
You (he) need to find someone reputable - I'm sure the folks over a fetlife can help. There are professional submissives as well, in case he's the Dom.
Lifestylers are a whole 'nother ball of wax, IMHO. As a beginner, I'm not sure your guy can or should try to play safely in that arena.
But hell yes, he should session with a professional. There is no shame in this!
posted by jbenben at 8:56 AM on November 9, 2011
Anon --- I wish you luck that when you explore that space, you find a way to work it out that both of you can be enthusiastic about and happy with.
Just remember that if it turns out there's no good way, if any option would leave one or both of you upset/dissatisfied/unhappy, it's not a failure in any way if you guys break up. If there's an incompatibility that causes unhappiness and won't go away, breaking up with respect can very often be the wisest thing to do. Particularly before marriage or kids.
Last thought-- there is something I can't put my finger on that really rubs me the wrong way about this: he has made it pretty clear to me that... a small, persistent part of him hopes that one day I'll just be like "sure, do whatever you want,"
Yes, it's great that he's being honest, but this strikes me as him not accepting you just as you are in a way that could become kind of pressuring over time. This kind of unrealistic wishing for your partner to change in a major way is something that doesn't bode well to me and it's something a way he could stop thinking if he made the effort. If I imagine myself in a parallell situation -- if say, a guy told me that he was fine with my weight for the time being but a small persistent part of him hopes that one day I would decide to lose a bunch of weight and become a size 0. I think over time, that would really erode my self esteem and make me feel like shit.
posted by cairdeas at 8:59 AM on November 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
Just remember that if it turns out there's no good way, if any option would leave one or both of you upset/dissatisfied/unhappy, it's not a failure in any way if you guys break up. If there's an incompatibility that causes unhappiness and won't go away, breaking up with respect can very often be the wisest thing to do. Particularly before marriage or kids.
Last thought-- there is something I can't put my finger on that really rubs me the wrong way about this: he has made it pretty clear to me that... a small, persistent part of him hopes that one day I'll just be like "sure, do whatever you want,"
Yes, it's great that he's being honest, but this strikes me as him not accepting you just as you are in a way that could become kind of pressuring over time. This kind of unrealistic wishing for your partner to change in a major way is something that doesn't bode well to me and it's something a way he could stop thinking if he made the effort. If I imagine myself in a parallell situation -- if say, a guy told me that he was fine with my weight for the time being but a small persistent part of him hopes that one day I would decide to lose a bunch of weight and become a size 0. I think over time, that would really erode my self esteem and make me feel like shit.
posted by cairdeas at 8:59 AM on November 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
The D/s needs can be obtained through a professional. I know a few couples with this arrangement, and it works fine.
I'm mildly non-monogamous and it may be different for those who are very non-monogamous, but while I can understand the need to seek out sexual fulfillment for a fetish, I find it difficult to accept the need to seek out a certain body type when you aren't in a relationship with that body type. My ideal body type has always been slender, short Asian men. I ended up in a relationship with a fairly built, tall, Nordic dude. Since being with him, my interests have shifted to the point where I now find more Caucasian males sexually appealing.
Only he can know if he really is okay with remaining monogamous. From what you've posted and my experience with friends in similar situations, I imagine that remaining monogamous will be difficult for him.
posted by avagoyle at 9:00 AM on November 9, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm mildly non-monogamous and it may be different for those who are very non-monogamous, but while I can understand the need to seek out sexual fulfillment for a fetish, I find it difficult to accept the need to seek out a certain body type when you aren't in a relationship with that body type. My ideal body type has always been slender, short Asian men. I ended up in a relationship with a fairly built, tall, Nordic dude. Since being with him, my interests have shifted to the point where I now find more Caucasian males sexually appealing.
Only he can know if he really is okay with remaining monogamous. From what you've posted and my experience with friends in similar situations, I imagine that remaining monogamous will be difficult for him.
posted by avagoyle at 9:00 AM on November 9, 2011 [2 favorites]
"Boyfriend's interests are: mild dom/sub power stuff (no whipping or blood sports!), attraction to a specific body type I don't have."
We. All. Experience. That.
When I was dating a curvy blonde, I didn't stop being attracted to slender redheads. When I dated a slender redhead (yummy!) I didn't stop being attracted to petite brunettes (also yummy!). Women are so beautiful. European women, Latin women, black women, Asian women. The girl next door, the Amazonian woman who's probably too tall for me anyway, the adorable geeky girl... God, they're all so beautiful. I think it's troubling if someone decides that since his girlfriend can't be all types of women, he's going to need to have sex with the others while committing to the one who, gosh darn it, just can't be a chameleon.
If the sub/dom stuff is the real problem, that's a different issue entirely. I dated a woman who needed me to beat her during sex. Sorry, I can't do that. I can't strike another human being. Not even in play. We weren't sexually compatible. It happens. But, the body type issue is another matter. It is impossible for any man or woman to be all body types.
posted by 2oh1 at 11:41 AM on November 9, 2011 [5 favorites]
We. All. Experience. That.
When I was dating a curvy blonde, I didn't stop being attracted to slender redheads. When I dated a slender redhead (yummy!) I didn't stop being attracted to petite brunettes (also yummy!). Women are so beautiful. European women, Latin women, black women, Asian women. The girl next door, the Amazonian woman who's probably too tall for me anyway, the adorable geeky girl... God, they're all so beautiful. I think it's troubling if someone decides that since his girlfriend can't be all types of women, he's going to need to have sex with the others while committing to the one who, gosh darn it, just can't be a chameleon.
If the sub/dom stuff is the real problem, that's a different issue entirely. I dated a woman who needed me to beat her during sex. Sorry, I can't do that. I can't strike another human being. Not even in play. We weren't sexually compatible. It happens. But, the body type issue is another matter. It is impossible for any man or woman to be all body types.
posted by 2oh1 at 11:41 AM on November 9, 2011 [5 favorites]
Mod note: From the OP:
D/s is NOT the main problem. The main problem is he is attracted to BBW. This is not like having a preference for redheads.posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:04 PM on November 9, 2011
Some men who are into BBW are ashamed by their attraction to women who aren't considered conventionally beautiful by American standards. These men tend to be high powered types concerned about their public issue. Rather than accept who they love, they date and marry women considered attractive by the general population, while seeking out sex with the type of women they really desire. Has he ever dated a BBW or have all his past partners been the American ideal?
Not all men who are into BBW are like this and it's perfectly normal and natural for a man previously into BBW to fall in love with a thin woman and vice versa. Only good, open conversations with your partner can help you figure out if his desires fall more towards needs or wants.
posted by avagoyle at 12:48 PM on November 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
Not all men who are into BBW are like this and it's perfectly normal and natural for a man previously into BBW to fall in love with a thin woman and vice versa. Only good, open conversations with your partner can help you figure out if his desires fall more towards needs or wants.
posted by avagoyle at 12:48 PM on November 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
"D/s is NOT the main problem. The main problem is he is attracted to BBW. This is not like having a preference for redheads."
Good to know. In this case, I'm not sure how to work this out. But I have ideas...
- If you are both mid 20's, I can assume neither of you has tons of relationship experience. Has he, would he, seriously date someone who is a BBW? or is he more like the type of man avagoyle describes, just above?
- Does he wish to be dominated by someone who is a BBW? Or does he wish to have sex with someone who is a BBW? Or does he wish to dominate a BBW?
I'm pretty sure this all matters in your calculations.
Experience can define, redefine, inflate, or deflate specific desires or fetishes. It is possible he has some exploring to do and you both just have bad timing. I'm so sorry, for if this is the case, you really really do not need to stick around for that type of ride because that is the sort of thing he would have needed to work out before committing to you. That ride of letting him play out this journey freely will screw you up - you will be giving too much. You will hurt yourself for no good purpose, and your recovery will be difficult.
If he truly loves you, and he simply wants to be dominated by a BBW - plenty of professionals out there will do this - a true professional would never ever sleep with him. He will get pretty caught up, though, because D/s is some pretty powerful psycho-sexual JuJu. D/s is not a toy, so to speak. D/s turns you inside out and upside down. A responsible professional transaction will help keep your guy's head on straight.
----
Is he pressuring you, or is this just something you know about him personally that you've conflated and is now eating at you??
I ask because my husband is different from, um, my preference/fetish. And we are super duper happy. But I knew what I was letting go of when I decided to marry him, and I never looked back. Happily!
Of course, we got together in my mid 30's, and I had it all sorted by then.
This might be something for you to deal with on your own, not involving him. Maybe?
----
As noted above, folks with a fetish committed to folks without can make it work. But the particulars (including you and him!) really are the deciding factor.
Please don't agree to open up your relationship just to make him happy. Marriage and commitments (the ones that last and are happy) NEVER depend on one partner sacrificing for the other. That. Never. Works. Long-term.
posted by jbenben at 6:08 PM on November 9, 2011
Good to know. In this case, I'm not sure how to work this out. But I have ideas...
- If you are both mid 20's, I can assume neither of you has tons of relationship experience. Has he, would he, seriously date someone who is a BBW? or is he more like the type of man avagoyle describes, just above?
- Does he wish to be dominated by someone who is a BBW? Or does he wish to have sex with someone who is a BBW? Or does he wish to dominate a BBW?
I'm pretty sure this all matters in your calculations.
Experience can define, redefine, inflate, or deflate specific desires or fetishes. It is possible he has some exploring to do and you both just have bad timing. I'm so sorry, for if this is the case, you really really do not need to stick around for that type of ride because that is the sort of thing he would have needed to work out before committing to you. That ride of letting him play out this journey freely will screw you up - you will be giving too much. You will hurt yourself for no good purpose, and your recovery will be difficult.
If he truly loves you, and he simply wants to be dominated by a BBW - plenty of professionals out there will do this - a true professional would never ever sleep with him. He will get pretty caught up, though, because D/s is some pretty powerful psycho-sexual JuJu. D/s is not a toy, so to speak. D/s turns you inside out and upside down. A responsible professional transaction will help keep your guy's head on straight.
----
Is he pressuring you, or is this just something you know about him personally that you've conflated and is now eating at you??
I ask because my husband is different from, um, my preference/fetish. And we are super duper happy. But I knew what I was letting go of when I decided to marry him, and I never looked back. Happily!
Of course, we got together in my mid 30's, and I had it all sorted by then.
This might be something for you to deal with on your own, not involving him. Maybe?
----
As noted above, folks with a fetish committed to folks without can make it work. But the particulars (including you and him!) really are the deciding factor.
Please don't agree to open up your relationship just to make him happy. Marriage and commitments (the ones that last and are happy) NEVER depend on one partner sacrificing for the other. That. Never. Works. Long-term.
posted by jbenben at 6:08 PM on November 9, 2011
I think this is a damn good point someone made earlier:
I think it's troubling if someone decides that since his girlfriend can't be all types of women, he's going to need to have sex with the others while committing to the one who, gosh darn it, just can't be a chameleon.
And I don't understand this statement by the OP:
The main problem is he is attracted to BBW. This is not like having a preference for redheads.
I don't see how attraction to BBW is different or more privileged than any other attraction.
Is it that certain desires, if elevated to the status of Fetish, become justifications for looking beyond your significant other?
posted by jayder at 8:40 PM on November 9, 2011 [4 favorites]
I think it's troubling if someone decides that since his girlfriend can't be all types of women, he's going to need to have sex with the others while committing to the one who, gosh darn it, just can't be a chameleon.
And I don't understand this statement by the OP:
The main problem is he is attracted to BBW. This is not like having a preference for redheads.
I don't see how attraction to BBW is different or more privileged than any other attraction.
Is it that certain desires, if elevated to the status of Fetish, become justifications for looking beyond your significant other?
posted by jayder at 8:40 PM on November 9, 2011 [4 favorites]
I'm fat and my boyfriend's previous girlfriends have all been thin. Maybe he had a BBW fetish the entire time, or maybe we just got along really well and he learned to love me "despite" my body type. If he told me he was going to start having sex with thin women because that was really his preference, we would be immediately breaking up even though we've been together 5 years (I have had sex with extremely fat and extremely skinny people, and I understand having a preference, but like 2oh1 said--one person can't have every body type! I love my current boyfriend and am attracted to him, even if his body changes over time!). I, like some of the other posters, am really tired of the "monogamy is uncool" mentality. Hooray for people who aren't into it, but it is definitely a societal norm and something most of us were raised to value and desire. There's nothing wrong with you for not being okay with allowing your partner to open the relationship to other people, transactionally OR emotionally. Life is too short to live it being unfulfilled, and that goes for both you and your boyfriend. If you want a monogamous partner, you should find one. If he wants a fat dominant partner, then he should go find that. It will definitely suck to lose someone you love, but I am pretty sure the end result will be a bajillion times better for you.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 9:24 AM on November 12, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by masquesoporfavor at 9:24 AM on November 12, 2011 [3 favorites]
some compromises could be:
- he watches BBW porn
- dirty talk with you about his BBW fantasies
it really depends on what he's able to live with, and what you're able to live with. if it's really important to him in your 20s is the perfect time to break up.
posted by cupcake1337 at 3:13 PM on November 12, 2011
- he watches BBW porn
- dirty talk with you about his BBW fantasies
it really depends on what he's able to live with, and what you're able to live with. if it's really important to him in your 20s is the perfect time to break up.
posted by cupcake1337 at 3:13 PM on November 12, 2011
My email (which I forgot to write) was a bit gentler, but in light of your update I have to agree with masquesoporfavor that these obstacles seem insurmountable. I can't think of a middle ground that wouldn't lead to jealousy or resentment. You are wired for monogamy and more vanilla stuff and THAT IS PERFECTLY OKAY, and I say that as someone who is kinky and not 100% monogamous. You will be beating your head against the wall if you're with someone who is wired completely the opposite. Even kinky non-monogamous people run into trouble with other kinky non-monogamous people, so your situation seems untenable to me. Go find someone who's not 97% great, but 99.999% awesome (the 0.001% is for leaving his dirty socks on the floor).
posted by desjardins at 3:37 PM on November 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 3:37 PM on November 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
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The important thing to do here is to talk it out with him, as much as you can, in order to tease out what actually troubles you.
Yes, it sounds like someone has to give up something. But it may not be 100% you. There may be a compromise that meets you somewhere in the middle. If not being able to have access to this particular act or fetish is a dealbreaker for him in terms of marriage, would it make a difference if the person that was carrying it out was an escort or domme?
Your sense of obligation can get you in trouble if your boyfriend is the kind of person who would take advantage of it in order to get what he wants without concern for how it affects you. Is he that kind of person? Only you can answer that.
It sounds like he's interested in pursuing a non-standard course for your relationship and that you're open to it but not particularly passionate about it. There are plenty of relationships that are open in which one person partakes and the other has permission to but does not. The important point there is that you don't grow resentful, and that communication remains open as to your feelings and stuff.
You have an absolute right to feel shitty if he does something outside of your comfort zone. You have an absolute right to talk to him about it, and work through it, or not work through it. He does not have an absolute right to do something that you cannot come to terms with or have not worked through to a point where you're understanding and open (and, ideally, supportive), just because he wants to and you're feeling "obligating".
Good luck!
posted by softlord at 2:50 PM on November 8, 2011