"You're Too Paranoid To Be Seduced Anyway."
November 2, 2011 10:48 AM Subscribe
My new boyfriend has become incredibly paranoid about my literary interests. How can I put him at ease?
2 weeks ago I purchased several new books, which is not at all unusual for me. I have a labyrinth of books of diverse topics so no subject is ever shocking to me. The book in question is Robert Greene's The Art of Seduction. It was chosen on a whim after a quick browse and I've found it quite interesting. I'd occasionally read a few chapters, highlighting things I felt were thoughtful along the way. Although it was fascinating after I'd read it I just set the book aside and forgot about it.
A few days ago my boyfriend (in my absence) noticed the book and later confronted me about it. I wasn't entirely surprised that he would take the title or content so literally because although he's brilliant in his field of expertise, he's definitely not a bibliophile. Given the subject matter I could see why someone may raise an eyebrow. Initially I was empathetic about his concerns however things quickly turned into an argument. In short, he wonders if I want to use that book as a manual of manipulation for our relationship. I think that's about as logical as assuming anyone that watched Titanic wants to go wreck a ship. After explaining at least a hundred different points to him, he was still unconvinced of my intentions.
Since the argument he's constantly questioning whether I mean what I say or if I picked it up from that book. I was trying to be as understanding as I could about his concerns, but I now it's kinda pissing me off. Book, movie, or music preferences aren't exactly indicative of one's character and it's a frustrating point to argue. I find it rather disconcerting that the man I have feelings towards is so impressionable. I find his suspicions and accusations to be hurtful and I've tried the whole, "hey it's really hurts my feelings when you say x about me."
In our relationship we really have known each other well enough to know the others motives. I think the boldness of the book freaked him out and he's probably thinking, "why would anyone read anything like that?!". Also, he's never actually read the book, he's only analyzed the few things that were highlighted. I would really like for him to feel comfortable and I don't ever want to feel ashamed for liking any subject I enjoy. I don't want to hide my books or tuck things a way because he won't appreciate it. Is there any insight that I can share to make us both happy?
2 weeks ago I purchased several new books, which is not at all unusual for me. I have a labyrinth of books of diverse topics so no subject is ever shocking to me. The book in question is Robert Greene's The Art of Seduction. It was chosen on a whim after a quick browse and I've found it quite interesting. I'd occasionally read a few chapters, highlighting things I felt were thoughtful along the way. Although it was fascinating after I'd read it I just set the book aside and forgot about it.
A few days ago my boyfriend (in my absence) noticed the book and later confronted me about it. I wasn't entirely surprised that he would take the title or content so literally because although he's brilliant in his field of expertise, he's definitely not a bibliophile. Given the subject matter I could see why someone may raise an eyebrow. Initially I was empathetic about his concerns however things quickly turned into an argument. In short, he wonders if I want to use that book as a manual of manipulation for our relationship. I think that's about as logical as assuming anyone that watched Titanic wants to go wreck a ship. After explaining at least a hundred different points to him, he was still unconvinced of my intentions.
Since the argument he's constantly questioning whether I mean what I say or if I picked it up from that book. I was trying to be as understanding as I could about his concerns, but I now it's kinda pissing me off. Book, movie, or music preferences aren't exactly indicative of one's character and it's a frustrating point to argue. I find it rather disconcerting that the man I have feelings towards is so impressionable. I find his suspicions and accusations to be hurtful and I've tried the whole, "hey it's really hurts my feelings when you say x about me."
In our relationship we really have known each other well enough to know the others motives. I think the boldness of the book freaked him out and he's probably thinking, "why would anyone read anything like that?!". Also, he's never actually read the book, he's only analyzed the few things that were highlighted. I would really like for him to feel comfortable and I don't ever want to feel ashamed for liking any subject I enjoy. I don't want to hide my books or tuck things a way because he won't appreciate it. Is there any insight that I can share to make us both happy?
Have him read the book too. Then he can see there's nothing to worry about. Or, in his somewhat troubling worldview, you'll both be equally equipped.
posted by Jon_Evil at 10:59 AM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 10:59 AM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
Well, first off, tell him he can't judge what you read unless he's read it too.
Then figure out what on earth is behind all of this. It can't be the book that convinced him you're trying to manipulate him. Based on your writing, I highly doubt you are, but this is something that's in the back of his mind and that worries him. The issue isn't the book. The issue is his suspicion. Has it come up before? When?
posted by pineappleheart at 10:59 AM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Then figure out what on earth is behind all of this. It can't be the book that convinced him you're trying to manipulate him. Based on your writing, I highly doubt you are, but this is something that's in the back of his mind and that worries him. The issue isn't the book. The issue is his suspicion. Has it come up before? When?
posted by pineappleheart at 10:59 AM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Or exactly what jessamyn said.
posted by pineappleheart at 11:00 AM on November 2, 2011
posted by pineappleheart at 11:00 AM on November 2, 2011
That book and its author have strong associations with the PUA community, and I wouldn't bat an eye if one of my friends became concerned about her relationship with a boyfriend after discovering he was reading it. Your attitude seems a little disingenuous: what he's probably responding to isn't the book itself (which, I haven't read it, and I'm not able to offer an opinion) but the larger cultural context.
posted by pullayup at 11:03 AM on November 2, 2011 [10 favorites]
posted by pullayup at 11:03 AM on November 2, 2011 [10 favorites]
I think his concerns are unfounded but your framing of the issue seems a bit unfair towards him. He is not interested in policing your reading, he is not judging you because of your taste in literature or music, he is upset because he found a book he had never heard of before called "The Art of Seduction" in which you had highlighted a number of passages. You seem eager to ascribe this to his philistinism or soft-headedness (you're not surprised he took the title too literally, you're shocked at how impressionable he is) rather than the issues he's raised, a fear of being manipulated and possibly, although he may not have mentioned it, and since he knows little more of the book than its title, a worry that you've bought a manual of seduction to practice on somebody else. As for dealing with those concerns I think the suggestions in this thread are excellent,
posted by villanelles at dawn at 11:05 AM on November 2, 2011 [14 favorites]
posted by villanelles at dawn at 11:05 AM on November 2, 2011 [14 favorites]
If I found that book on my fairly new boyfriend's shelf, I would want to know more about why it interested him. I think it is perfectly legitimate to wonder whether the owner of a manual on opportunistic seduction is in fact interested in opportunistic seduction. But it seems like he is going way overboard. My guess is that he has some other reason for being insecure in the relationship.
posted by yarly at 11:07 AM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by yarly at 11:07 AM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
I've read von Clausewitz, and no-one in my household worries that I'm planning an invasion.
posted by atrazine at 11:09 AM on November 2, 2011 [12 favorites]
posted by atrazine at 11:09 AM on November 2, 2011 [12 favorites]
You have the right to read whatever you want to. Your boyfriend does not have the right to snoop, confront you, and demand answers.
posted by KokuRyu at 11:13 AM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by KokuRyu at 11:13 AM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
The book doesn't matter. Your boyfriend not liking the book in terms of cultural context also doesn't matter. What does matter is how he spoke to you about it or started treating you because he saw it, how you responded to him, and how you two deal with that potential point of conflict. You two can be happy together and love each other, even if you disagree deeply about something. How you communicate about that disagreement (or communicate about disagreement and then realize that you don't really disagree, but are just insecure or scared or tired, etc). and then find a place of mutual respect and understanding again is what ultimately matters. People get triggered by all sorts of things, expectedly and unexpectedly. And that's ok. How your boyfriend then talks to you about his feelings and response is a different question. And how you respond to his concerns (definsively, calmly, reflectively, etc.) is also valuable. I'm not sure that you two can both end up "happy" in terms of whether you read/keep the book. But perhaps you can both be "happy" with how you address boundaries, conflict, feelings, etc.
posted by anya32 at 11:17 AM on November 2, 2011 [13 favorites]
posted by anya32 at 11:17 AM on November 2, 2011 [13 favorites]
Your boyfriend does not have the right to snoop
Please don't distort the question. The OP didn't say anything about snooping.
posted by John Cohen at 11:19 AM on November 2, 2011 [5 favorites]
Please don't distort the question. The OP didn't say anything about snooping.
posted by John Cohen at 11:19 AM on November 2, 2011 [5 favorites]
In short, he wonders if I want to use that book as a manual of manipulation for our relationship. I think that's about as logical as assuming anyone that watched Titanic wants to go wreck a ship.
I was about to jump all over him until I read the reviews. This does appear to be a book about "How to wreck a ship" to use your metaphor.
These reviews would also give me cause for alarm.
from the Library Journal review: (your amazon link).
From the Booklist review:
If he read these reviews, I could see how he might be a little squicked out by this. If, as these reviews say, this is a book which encourages manipulation to the point of major book reviewers describing the result as "distasteful" I can understand where he is coming from.
Book, movie, or music preferences aren't exactly indicative of one's character and it's a frustrating point to argue.
This might be true for a fiction book, but not a "how to" book.
I am going against the grain but I think you need to sit him down and say, 'yes I did read this book about manipulation techniques.' 'I can understand how that might concern you.' 'However, I want to let you know that I have no intention of ever using these techniques.'
That's all you can do.
What were the parts you highlighted?
posted by Ironmouth at 11:43 AM on November 2, 2011 [11 favorites]
I was about to jump all over him until I read the reviews. This does appear to be a book about "How to wreck a ship" to use your metaphor.
These reviews would also give me cause for alarm.
from the Library Journal review: (your amazon link).
Touted as a "handbook on the most subtle and effective form of power" and "an indispensable primer on how to take what you want from whomever you want," this book is more than a little creepy. Following on the heels of his 48 Laws of Power, this book continues Greene's gross exploration of social power, this time in the realm of sexual politics. In Part 1, Greene, again paired with "packager" Joost Elffers (Play with Your Food), offers a straight-faced description of the nine types of seductive character, from the "Ideal Lover" to the "Rake." Elffers's contribution comes in the form of numerous quotes by famous contemporary and historical figures tucked into the side margins. Part 2 examines the process of seduction, subdivided into four phases, with chapter headings such as "Master the Art of Insinuation" and "Isolate the Victim." This book will have real appeal for power mongers, gold diggers, and heartless manipulators everywhere. Books such as Beverley East's Finding Mr. Write (LJ 5/1/00) and Jama Clark's What the Hell Do Women Really Want? (Island Flower, 1997) offer advice on the same subject without the distasteful exploitative emphasis.(emphasis added)
From the Booklist review:
Greene is the author of The 48 Laws of Power (1998), a compilation of quotes from throughout history that prescribe methods of obtaining and wielding power. He now adds seduction to the mix of stratagems for those who feel the need to scheme to get what they want. Given the popularity of so-called reality-based television programs, it is clear there is a large audience of such people. Greene, again providing quotes on his topic from philosophers, scientists, playwrights, and novelists, examines "the achievements of the greatest seducers throughout history" and profiles 10 seductive archetypes. Although the tactics Greene advises may be distasteful to some, his literary survey is fascinating.(Emphasis added).
If he read these reviews, I could see how he might be a little squicked out by this. If, as these reviews say, this is a book which encourages manipulation to the point of major book reviewers describing the result as "distasteful" I can understand where he is coming from.
Book, movie, or music preferences aren't exactly indicative of one's character and it's a frustrating point to argue.
This might be true for a fiction book, but not a "how to" book.
I am going against the grain but I think you need to sit him down and say, 'yes I did read this book about manipulation techniques.' 'I can understand how that might concern you.' 'However, I want to let you know that I have no intention of ever using these techniques.'
That's all you can do.
What were the parts you highlighted?
posted by Ironmouth at 11:43 AM on November 2, 2011 [11 favorites]
To be honest, I'm kind of with your boyfriend on this one. The book is written by a guy who is famous for explicitly telling people how to literally be manipulative. I don't think he's out of line in raising an eyebrow, especially in a newish relationship. I sure would!
However, this suspicion could pose problems down the line. If he's paranoid, and has a hard time trusting you, it's probably about more than just this book. And he's giving you a heads up right now, so it's up to you if you want to work through this with him and move on together or if you just want to cut your losses and move on without him.
That said, if you honestly aren't planning on taking any of Greene's instruction, and feel like you want to work things out with him, it might be helpful for you to go over the highlighted passages with your main squeeze and deconstruct them together, or at least explain to him why they resonated with you, or what you thought were interesting about them. It might be kind of fun to ask him his opinion on the passages too, to really talk about it, and ask him if wants to read the book too.
posted by emilycardigan at 11:46 AM on November 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
However, this suspicion could pose problems down the line. If he's paranoid, and has a hard time trusting you, it's probably about more than just this book. And he's giving you a heads up right now, so it's up to you if you want to work through this with him and move on together or if you just want to cut your losses and move on without him.
That said, if you honestly aren't planning on taking any of Greene's instruction, and feel like you want to work things out with him, it might be helpful for you to go over the highlighted passages with your main squeeze and deconstruct them together, or at least explain to him why they resonated with you, or what you thought were interesting about them. It might be kind of fun to ask him his opinion on the passages too, to really talk about it, and ask him if wants to read the book too.
posted by emilycardigan at 11:46 AM on November 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
I'm not your boyfriend but I am also unconvinced of your intentions. It's clear you want to be innocent and thus have no conscious bad intentions but that's only the tip of the iceberg (to keep with the Titanic metaphor.)
as logical as assuming anyone that watched Titanic wants to go wreck a ship.
Well, no, that's fiction. This is a how to. If I told you I liked to read books on lock picking, would you accept that I was interested in it as a theoretical study? It happens to be true, but even I wonder what I find appealing about them. It says something about me.
I've tried the whole, "hey it's really hurts my feelings when you say x about me."
You've "tried" it? And it failed and you're asking because you want to "try" something else? Isn't that a manipulative point of view?
I think you need to honestly tell your boyfriend what it is about the book that attracts you. If you don't know what it is, give it some thought. If you weren't dismissive of his fears but explored with him why you find the subject interesting in a non-defensive manner, I'll bet he'll come around to your side. I'm suspicious of how you were briefly "empathic" when it was just amusing but when it actually kept bothering him, you began to worry about having to hide what you read. Are there parts of you he shouldn't want to know about? Do you know about those parts or do you avoid them too?
posted by Obscure Reference at 11:48 AM on November 2, 2011
as logical as assuming anyone that watched Titanic wants to go wreck a ship.
Well, no, that's fiction. This is a how to. If I told you I liked to read books on lock picking, would you accept that I was interested in it as a theoretical study? It happens to be true, but even I wonder what I find appealing about them. It says something about me.
I've tried the whole, "hey it's really hurts my feelings when you say x about me."
You've "tried" it? And it failed and you're asking because you want to "try" something else? Isn't that a manipulative point of view?
I think you need to honestly tell your boyfriend what it is about the book that attracts you. If you don't know what it is, give it some thought. If you weren't dismissive of his fears but explored with him why you find the subject interesting in a non-defensive manner, I'll bet he'll come around to your side. I'm suspicious of how you were briefly "empathic" when it was just amusing but when it actually kept bothering him, you began to worry about having to hide what you read. Are there parts of you he shouldn't want to know about? Do you know about those parts or do you avoid them too?
posted by Obscure Reference at 11:48 AM on November 2, 2011
Something doesn't add up here. You say you "know each other in this relationship well enough to understand each other's motives," but then you also say he's your new boyfriend. I know people who've been in happy relationships, marriages even, for years and still don't completely understand each other's movies; it's fair to say with anyone you've been dating for little enough time to call "new," there's a lot you don't know about his motives and vice versa. (This goes even if you've known each other as friends forever -- relationships change things.)
Let's look at it from his point of view; let's pretend he's posting a question here about being in a new relationship with someone and finding a highlighted book called "The Art of Seduction," which can be used as a manipulation manual among other things, is associated with the PUA community and has a lot of freaky-outy reviews/articles available via Google. A lot of people would probably call this a red flag. (Imagine the scenario gender-flipped, and I'd wager that percentage would spike even more.)
So no, I don't think he's being paranoid, let alone "incredibly paranoid." He doesn't completely know your motives, nor you his; all he has to go on is evidence. I think he has very reasonable doubts, and I'm honestly not sure if they can ever be 100% resolved, certainly not via "explaining 100 different points." If someone sees this as a red flag, that might come off as 100 different excuses. I think talking about it more can help, but really now: it's never going to help if you think he's being paranoid. He's not.
posted by dekathelon at 11:49 AM on November 2, 2011
Let's look at it from his point of view; let's pretend he's posting a question here about being in a new relationship with someone and finding a highlighted book called "The Art of Seduction," which can be used as a manipulation manual among other things, is associated with the PUA community and has a lot of freaky-outy reviews/articles available via Google. A lot of people would probably call this a red flag. (Imagine the scenario gender-flipped, and I'd wager that percentage would spike even more.)
So no, I don't think he's being paranoid, let alone "incredibly paranoid." He doesn't completely know your motives, nor you his; all he has to go on is evidence. I think he has very reasonable doubts, and I'm honestly not sure if they can ever be 100% resolved, certainly not via "explaining 100 different points." If someone sees this as a red flag, that might come off as 100 different excuses. I think talking about it more can help, but really now: it's never going to help if you think he's being paranoid. He's not.
posted by dekathelon at 11:49 AM on November 2, 2011
Response by poster: Ironmouth: Good point though I'd already taken to printing out some of those reviews (some favorable and some not.) I completely understand what anyone's concern may be with a book and author like that. The problem is not that I'm upset whether he has concerns because I think his initial concern was justified. I just feel that he's gotten carried away with suspicions and fear of the unknown. He's free the read up on the book and talk about it, but he doesn't. He just goes on and on about what he thinks it's all about.
Dekathelon: The relationship is new but we've know each other for years.
posted by xbeautychicx at 11:58 AM on November 2, 2011
Dekathelon: The relationship is new but we've know each other for years.
posted by xbeautychicx at 11:58 AM on November 2, 2011
Just one more data point:
I want to take a bath just reading the back of the book's cover. And Ironmouth bolded and highlighted the exact same bits I was about to. And that's just the freaking 'Library Journal' review -- some of the Amazon user reviews make me weep for humanity.
You say that he's not understanding what the book's about -- but the fact is the book -- according to its own book jacket -- and those that have read it -- is the perfect instruction manual for exactly what he's worried about.
I have (happily) supported my boyfriend for the last couple of years, and have completely lost almost all sense of "mine" vs. "ours" (maybe even in an unhealthy way); further, I have no doubt that he probably could manipulate/seduce me into doing things I wouldn't normally do if someone else asked., and I really don't care. Still, with all of that as a given, I'd still be a little creeped by him reading this, even as an interested bystander. I can't put my finger on it, but I'm not surprised that someone else might react in a similar fashion.
Also, like others in this thread have said, if I knew a woman who found this on a man she was dating's nightstand, I'd have to eat my fist to not shout "red flag" -- and I generally tend to give guys a HUGE benefit of the doubt.
I'm not saying he shouldn't stop because you told him to stop. Because I think he should. But as far as hurt feelings go, I'd consider where he was coming from a bit more and communicate with him about why its bothering him, not just focusing on your hurt feelings, and use that time to explain why it was interesting to you.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:02 PM on November 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
I want to take a bath just reading the back of the book's cover. And Ironmouth bolded and highlighted the exact same bits I was about to. And that's just the freaking 'Library Journal' review -- some of the Amazon user reviews make me weep for humanity.
You say that he's not understanding what the book's about -- but the fact is the book -- according to its own book jacket -- and those that have read it -- is the perfect instruction manual for exactly what he's worried about.
I have (happily) supported my boyfriend for the last couple of years, and have completely lost almost all sense of "mine" vs. "ours" (maybe even in an unhealthy way); further, I have no doubt that he probably could manipulate/seduce me into doing things I wouldn't normally do if someone else asked., and I really don't care. Still, with all of that as a given, I'd still be a little creeped by him reading this, even as an interested bystander. I can't put my finger on it, but I'm not surprised that someone else might react in a similar fashion.
Also, like others in this thread have said, if I knew a woman who found this on a man she was dating's nightstand, I'd have to eat my fist to not shout "red flag" -- and I generally tend to give guys a HUGE benefit of the doubt.
I'm not saying he shouldn't stop because you told him to stop. Because I think he should. But as far as hurt feelings go, I'd consider where he was coming from a bit more and communicate with him about why its bothering him, not just focusing on your hurt feelings, and use that time to explain why it was interesting to you.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:02 PM on November 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
I just feel that he's gotten carried away with suspicions and fear of the unknown. He's free the read up on the book and talk about it, but he doesn't. He just goes on and on about what he thinks it's all about.
Well, I'd tell him--look, I promise never to try and use any of these techniques to manipulate you. Can you accept that promise from me and can we move forward or is this a deal breaker from you that I read this book?
Are the other books also disturbing in this vein? And were the highlighted portions particularly disturbing?
Tell him that you need to move on from this.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:03 PM on November 2, 2011
Well, I'd tell him--look, I promise never to try and use any of these techniques to manipulate you. Can you accept that promise from me and can we move forward or is this a deal breaker from you that I read this book?
Are the other books also disturbing in this vein? And were the highlighted portions particularly disturbing?
Tell him that you need to move on from this.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:03 PM on November 2, 2011
The book is written by a guy who is famous for explicitly telling people how to literally be manipulative.
Yes, and? I am totally fascinated and repulsed by the PUA movement. I read a LOT of stuff related to it, completely out of the desire to understand the thinking of the type of people who would use it. It's like an innoculation! Knowledge is power and all that.
Why in the world would anyone assume you're reading it because you want to USE the techniques? This would make me seriously question the foundation of my relationship, if I were you.
posted by peep at 12:03 PM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
Yes, and? I am totally fascinated and repulsed by the PUA movement. I read a LOT of stuff related to it, completely out of the desire to understand the thinking of the type of people who would use it. It's like an innoculation! Knowledge is power and all that.
Why in the world would anyone assume you're reading it because you want to USE the techniques? This would make me seriously question the foundation of my relationship, if I were you.
posted by peep at 12:03 PM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
I think the fact that you hilighted stuff in the book is key here. People don't usually hilight works of literature they are enjoying as a diversion. People hilight things they are studying and and want to remember later.
posted by Ad hominem at 12:05 PM on November 2, 2011 [12 favorites]
posted by Ad hominem at 12:05 PM on November 2, 2011 [12 favorites]
Best answer: Yikes, I'm glad the OP's boyfriend has never seen the bookshelves I share with Mrs. Sauce. He'd suspect us of being some kind of cult mafia/militia that seduces ghosts and UFOs with rigorous practice of The Secret and the Rules and National Socialism.
Books are tourism in alien minds. Sometimes those minds are hideous.
Is there any insight that I can share to make us both happy?
If I were going to get rhetorical, I'd point out that Bible owners aren't necessarily Christian and that Koran owners aren't necessarily Muslim.
But this doesn't feel like a problem that can be reassured away. The underlying problem is your boyfriend's suspicious mind. The book is just the trigger.
Assuming you guys are spending lots of happy time together as a new couple, why is he fixated on this book instead of the goodness of this new relationship? And what other things will trigger him?
posted by Sauce Trough at 12:07 PM on November 2, 2011 [13 favorites]
Books are tourism in alien minds. Sometimes those minds are hideous.
Is there any insight that I can share to make us both happy?
If I were going to get rhetorical, I'd point out that Bible owners aren't necessarily Christian and that Koran owners aren't necessarily Muslim.
But this doesn't feel like a problem that can be reassured away. The underlying problem is your boyfriend's suspicious mind. The book is just the trigger.
Assuming you guys are spending lots of happy time together as a new couple, why is he fixated on this book instead of the goodness of this new relationship? And what other things will trigger him?
posted by Sauce Trough at 12:07 PM on November 2, 2011 [13 favorites]
Best answer: I really do not care who has highlighted what or what anyone is reading.
Being someone's boyfriend or girlfriend does not suddenly give you magical rights of control over what they're reading.
FWIW, my boyfriend would never try to tell me I couldn't read something. He might tease me about it or whatever if I was reading the linked book, but he wouldn't be like I THINK YOU WILL USE THIS FOR EVIL SO YOU CAN'T READ IT.
Seriously, that is a complete wtf.
I know it can be hard to say things like this - especially in a new relationship - but personally I kind of feel like your response should be something like "boyfriend I think you're great, but if you try to police my reading we are fucking through. If you can't get over it then get out."
posted by kavasa at 12:09 PM on November 2, 2011 [7 favorites]
Being someone's boyfriend or girlfriend does not suddenly give you magical rights of control over what they're reading.
FWIW, my boyfriend would never try to tell me I couldn't read something. He might tease me about it or whatever if I was reading the linked book, but he wouldn't be like I THINK YOU WILL USE THIS FOR EVIL SO YOU CAN'T READ IT.
Seriously, that is a complete wtf.
I know it can be hard to say things like this - especially in a new relationship - but personally I kind of feel like your response should be something like "boyfriend I think you're great, but if you try to police my reading we are fucking through. If you can't get over it then get out."
posted by kavasa at 12:09 PM on November 2, 2011 [7 favorites]
It's hard to interpret a title of "The Art of Seduction" as anything other than its literal meaning. I don't blame your boyfriend for being uneasy about finding it, but I think this has gone way beyond "he's got a problem with the book".
Forget the book. The book's just a lightning rod for his insecurity about the relationship and, to some degree, not fully trusting you. These things aren't deal-breakers in a new relationship, but you have to discuss them in terms that aren't coded around one specific event. After all, it's much easier to latch on to "She's reading a book called The Art of Seduction" than, "I'm worried about being controlled by my relationship partner."
posted by mkultra at 12:09 PM on November 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
Forget the book. The book's just a lightning rod for his insecurity about the relationship and, to some degree, not fully trusting you. These things aren't deal-breakers in a new relationship, but you have to discuss them in terms that aren't coded around one specific event. After all, it's much easier to latch on to "She's reading a book called The Art of Seduction" than, "I'm worried about being controlled by my relationship partner."
posted by mkultra at 12:09 PM on November 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
I agree with Ad hominem - the weirdness, to me, is that you highlighted passages... What sorts of things did you highlight? And do you do this all the time, or mainly with books you are studying? It would be one thing if my boyfriend read that book, but another if he was highlighting stuff about how to put the theories into practice.
posted by amro at 12:10 PM on November 2, 2011
posted by amro at 12:10 PM on November 2, 2011
So you've known each other as friends for a while. OK. We're getting somewhere now. What he might be afraid of is that this book is how the relationship went from friends to dating. He could be picturing this: friends => FREAKY-DEAKY SEDUCTION MIND CONTROL => relationship. This requires more details, of course (who asked whom out, etc.), but again, based on the evidence he has I think it's an entirely fair worry to have. Even though you're not lying about this, your truth-telling still looks almost exactly like what someone would say to wriggle their way out of being caught. Again, I don't know that there's an easily solution other than to stop thinking he's paranoid. That alone should help resolve things.
And really, guys -- there's a major leap between being interested in how the PUA community works, maybe throwing a few pageviews at book reviews or browsing in the library, and paying money for a book, taking it home and HIGHLIGHTING IT. The leap doesn't necessarily mean anything, but can't you see why it would look like it does?
posted by dekathelon at 12:14 PM on November 2, 2011
And really, guys -- there's a major leap between being interested in how the PUA community works, maybe throwing a few pageviews at book reviews or browsing in the library, and paying money for a book, taking it home and HIGHLIGHTING IT. The leap doesn't necessarily mean anything, but can't you see why it would look like it does?
posted by dekathelon at 12:14 PM on November 2, 2011
I don't think the issue is the guy is trying to tell her what to read or control her. The guy is worried she is using pop psychology techiques to game him. The OP didn't even try to address his fears, she tried to deflect by making it about her feelings.
posted by Ad hominem at 12:16 PM on November 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by Ad hominem at 12:16 PM on November 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
Best answer: He's probably used to women being way more guarded about appearances in his presence. Which is how TONS of women act around men -- every book they read, everything they do or say is curated with the male gaze in mind. I have a female friend who can't even poop, ever, unless she knows for a fact that she is the only person in the entire house/apartment/office. Because any human function that is not sympatico with her image as a beautiful, fun, thoughtful, perfect woman, just like you've seen in the movies is strictly verboten. It begins as a facade to attract a man, and then she feels she has to keep it up in order to keep him.
So, a guy dates a few women like that, and suddenly someone who doesn't really give a fuck what people think seems really threatening. He can't imagine that you would not think first and foremost how reading this book would look TO HIM.
You've let him know this is not about him. He may not believe you -- because in the past, everything else always was -- but that's not really your problem, I promise.
posted by hermitosis at 12:17 PM on November 2, 2011 [7 favorites]
So, a guy dates a few women like that, and suddenly someone who doesn't really give a fuck what people think seems really threatening. He can't imagine that you would not think first and foremost how reading this book would look TO HIM.
You've let him know this is not about him. He may not believe you -- because in the past, everything else always was -- but that's not really your problem, I promise.
posted by hermitosis at 12:17 PM on November 2, 2011 [7 favorites]
The only way to prove to him that you're not planning to manipulate him is to leave him. That's what I'd do. Anyone close to me (or not) can like or not like, or agree or disagree with anything I read. That's what makes discussions. But to make this kind of deal out of my choice of reading material... instant packing up and getting out. Apparently you should only be allowed to learn about these techniques by reading reviews and book covers... never read the actual evil book!!
posted by txmon at 12:17 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by txmon at 12:17 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
The guy is worried she is using pop psychology techiques to game him. The OP didn't even try to address his fears, she tried to deflect by making it about her feelings.
Why can't he handle his fears by himself? Maybe there are other issues in the relationship we're unaware of, but Christ Almighty, it's okay in 2011 for a boyfriend to complain about what his girlfriend is reading, because it makes him feel insecure???
posted by KokuRyu at 12:18 PM on November 2, 2011 [6 favorites]
Why can't he handle his fears by himself? Maybe there are other issues in the relationship we're unaware of, but Christ Almighty, it's okay in 2011 for a boyfriend to complain about what his girlfriend is reading, because it makes him feel insecure???
posted by KokuRyu at 12:18 PM on November 2, 2011 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: I usually highlight passages in any book I read. My boyfriend knew of the habit as well.
posted by xbeautychicx at 12:22 PM on November 2, 2011
posted by xbeautychicx at 12:22 PM on November 2, 2011
Best answer: If my boyfriend were reading a book called The Art of Seduction, there is no way I wouldn't be amused and daring him to demonstrate what he learned. Or yammering at him to talk about what he found interesting. This is an opportunity for bonding and your SO is choosing to see it as a threat and trying to punish you for seeking knowledge that disturbs him. Bad sign, IMHO.
Seduction? Yes, please.
posted by griselda at 12:24 PM on November 2, 2011 [12 favorites]
Seduction? Yes, please.
posted by griselda at 12:24 PM on November 2, 2011 [12 favorites]
I usually highlight passages in any book I read. My boyfriend knew of the habit as well.
Sorry, I guess what I'm asking was were the highlighted passages particularly fear-inducing, like "here's how you manipulate your boyfriend" etc.? You may have to sit down and discuss that with him.
At some point if he refuses to move on, you must.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:24 PM on November 2, 2011
Sorry, I guess what I'm asking was were the highlighted passages particularly fear-inducing, like "here's how you manipulate your boyfriend" etc.? You may have to sit down and discuss that with him.
At some point if he refuses to move on, you must.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:24 PM on November 2, 2011
I really do not care who has highlighted what or what anyone is reading.
Being someone's boyfriend or girlfriend does not suddenly give you magical rights of control over what they're reading.
FWIW, my boyfriend would never try to tell me I couldn't read something. He might tease me about it or whatever if I was reading the linked book, but he wouldn't be like I THINK YOU WILL USE THIS FOR EVIL SO YOU CAN'T READ IT.
Seriously, that is a complete wtf.
I nth this. It's outrageous that anyone thinks you need to explain yourself at all, no matter what book you're reading. Maybe, MAYBE, if I found someone I was living with had a book called "How to Cook Four Friends" I might have suspicions. But this? Who cares what the reviews say. I would be seriously pissed if someone flipped out over something like this. Also, what jessamyn said.
posted by sweetkid at 12:27 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Even if he is insecure he is supposed to what? Never express his emotions? Bury it deep down so his girlfriend never has to have her taste in books questioned?
Really, think about it. You stay over at your boyfriends house. He runs to the store and you are bored so you look at his bookshelves to find something to read. You find this book, with passages hilighted. What do you think. Maybe you are insecure and you ask your boyfriend "You aren't trying this stuff on me are you?" and he says" That accusation hurts my feelings!". He just manipulated the situation to turn it around on you.
As an adult you are supposed to be able to share your fears and doubts about things. Not hide your feelings because they might be construed as controling.
posted by Ad hominem at 12:30 PM on November 2, 2011 [7 favorites]
Really, think about it. You stay over at your boyfriends house. He runs to the store and you are bored so you look at his bookshelves to find something to read. You find this book, with passages hilighted. What do you think. Maybe you are insecure and you ask your boyfriend "You aren't trying this stuff on me are you?" and he says" That accusation hurts my feelings!". He just manipulated the situation to turn it around on you.
As an adult you are supposed to be able to share your fears and doubts about things. Not hide your feelings because they might be construed as controling.
posted by Ad hominem at 12:30 PM on November 2, 2011 [7 favorites]
Well, it sounds like your boyfriend is having a somewhat disproportionate reaction to you reading this book. You seem to be ascribing this reaction to his having a different relationship to books and reading in general. That could be true. Or he could be reacting this way because he's experienced some kind of emotional abuse.
It's also possible that he has bad boundaries in general or is controlling/manipulative himself and this is the first sign of it.
Your statement about watching Titanic seems a little unfair to me--most people don't have the opportunity to captain a huge boat, and more importantly, the book you're reading actually is a how to manual for manipulation and underhanded control. It makes me wonder if your boyfriend feels similarly like you don't understand his concerns, and are dismissive of his feelings about this.
I think the ideal solution would be to sit down and talk, in a really open and non-judgmental way, so you both can say what you're experiencing and both feel heard. Maybe to do that you need to set aside the question of whether or not it's fair for him to be upset or whether or not it's bad that you're reading this book. Maybe you need a friend or someone else neutral to be part of that conversation.
posted by overglow at 12:31 PM on November 2, 2011 [7 favorites]
It's also possible that he has bad boundaries in general or is controlling/manipulative himself and this is the first sign of it.
Your statement about watching Titanic seems a little unfair to me--most people don't have the opportunity to captain a huge boat, and more importantly, the book you're reading actually is a how to manual for manipulation and underhanded control. It makes me wonder if your boyfriend feels similarly like you don't understand his concerns, and are dismissive of his feelings about this.
I think the ideal solution would be to sit down and talk, in a really open and non-judgmental way, so you both can say what you're experiencing and both feel heard. Maybe to do that you need to set aside the question of whether or not it's fair for him to be upset or whether or not it's bad that you're reading this book. Maybe you need a friend or someone else neutral to be part of that conversation.
posted by overglow at 12:31 PM on November 2, 2011 [7 favorites]
If you're question and responses here are representative of how you tackled the issue with your boyfriend, I'm not surprised he wasn't convinced... you're not very convincing. Your "metaphor" is ludicrous and if you don't see that then you're either not as smart as you think you are or you're deluding yourself and the way you talk about your boyfriend is very condescending and unfair. You're also overly defensive, which makes you seem 'guilty'.
Stop trying to justify and defend yourself, you're not very good at it. The damage has been done, you can't unread the book. You need to sit down with him and be very clear that the current situation is not acceptable. He is free to read the book for himself so that he knows everything in it and then he no longer has to wonder if something you have said is from the book. If he's unwilling to read the book then he just has to drop it - he's not to mention the book again or accuse you of using its techniques to manipulate him. If he can't do that then its over, you cannot continue in the relationship.
posted by missmagenta at 12:41 PM on November 2, 2011 [9 favorites]
Stop trying to justify and defend yourself, you're not very good at it. The damage has been done, you can't unread the book. You need to sit down with him and be very clear that the current situation is not acceptable. He is free to read the book for himself so that he knows everything in it and then he no longer has to wonder if something you have said is from the book. If he's unwilling to read the book then he just has to drop it - he's not to mention the book again or accuse you of using its techniques to manipulate him. If he can't do that then its over, you cannot continue in the relationship.
posted by missmagenta at 12:41 PM on November 2, 2011 [9 favorites]
Mod note: question is not about snooping, please don't make it about snooping.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:41 PM on November 2, 2011
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:41 PM on November 2, 2011
reading something does not necessarily make you something. highlighting something does not make you something. acting/doing does. if the OP were a manipulative person, it would be the OP's decisions and ethics leading to that, not highlighted chapters in a book. if this were not the case, i would be a very different person based on all that i have read/highlighted in school and for myself over the years.
i think focusing on what the OP was reading takes away from how the OP and her boyfriend as a couple dealt with this point of emotional/trust conflict.
posted by anya32 at 12:44 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
i think focusing on what the OP was reading takes away from how the OP and her boyfriend as a couple dealt with this point of emotional/trust conflict.
posted by anya32 at 12:44 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Yes you have the right to leave your (highlighted!) seduction manual lying around the house, and your new boyfriend has the right to get unattractively suspicious and whiny when he finds it. Discretion, tact, and good taste all mitigate against both courses of action, but that horse is out the barn by now...
If your question is about how to put him at ease, rather than about how to shut him up, I'd try asking yourself what interests you about the passages you highlighted and see if you can talk to him about it. But first you're probably going to have to put in the effort to reassure him (as in reassure him about your intentions and affection, not reassure him that he's being an ass). Then try to find out what in particular he finds so threatening.
Some years ago I lost a whole rainy afternoon speed-reading The Game in the basement of Shakespeare and Co. It was fascinating and repellant. Fascinating because the whole crazy-misfits-crack-the-code premise was kind of titillating, and because Strauss is a funny writer. Repellant because the whole PUA thing seemed so duplicitous and neurotic. It's predicated on massive doses of self-loathing; the subtext was "here's how to get (infinitely desirable yet completely contemptible) women to love you even though you're really a selfish unattractive prick". The basic idea was to imagine all those scary scary girls as so alien to you that you didn't need to think of them as humans. Then put on some ridiculous costumes and say bizarre things until one of them was so puzzled she anointed you with the grace of her favor. And no I'm not describing Christianity here ....
Other people's insecurities are easy to laugh at. If you can't resist, then maybe you shouldn't be with the guy. If you can take the high road here, try to understand where he's coming from; maybe he'll return the favor one day.
posted by jcrcarter at 12:53 PM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
If your question is about how to put him at ease, rather than about how to shut him up, I'd try asking yourself what interests you about the passages you highlighted and see if you can talk to him about it. But first you're probably going to have to put in the effort to reassure him (as in reassure him about your intentions and affection, not reassure him that he's being an ass). Then try to find out what in particular he finds so threatening.
Some years ago I lost a whole rainy afternoon speed-reading The Game in the basement of Shakespeare and Co. It was fascinating and repellant. Fascinating because the whole crazy-misfits-crack-the-code premise was kind of titillating, and because Strauss is a funny writer. Repellant because the whole PUA thing seemed so duplicitous and neurotic. It's predicated on massive doses of self-loathing; the subtext was "here's how to get (infinitely desirable yet completely contemptible) women to love you even though you're really a selfish unattractive prick". The basic idea was to imagine all those scary scary girls as so alien to you that you didn't need to think of them as humans. Then put on some ridiculous costumes and say bizarre things until one of them was so puzzled she anointed you with the grace of her favor. And no I'm not describing Christianity here ....
Other people's insecurities are easy to laugh at. If you can't resist, then maybe you shouldn't be with the guy. If you can take the high road here, try to understand where he's coming from; maybe he'll return the favor one day.
posted by jcrcarter at 12:53 PM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
Wow, maybe it’s because I’m a bibliophile, but this question is pushing really strong buttons for me. I’m shocked at how many people are coming down on his side.
The salient point here is that he’s reacted to his insecurity very badly; he’s hounding you, accusing you, and trying to make you feel guilty. People should never guilt trip other people like that. If they don’t like what you’re doing, it’s okay to say so- gently and honestly. It’s okay to show that he’s hurt by this. It’s also okay to leave, with or without explanation. Freaking out about it and making you the bad guy is not okay.
Maybe I’m just a big hippy who believes that love is freedom, but I don’t think you can really call it “love” if you’re reacting out of a need to control and shame someone because you’re insecure. I had a boyfriend once who didn’t like that I read “literature” at ALL, because he thought it made me too stuck-up and was afraid he couldn’t keep up or something. Jesus, that was just so twisted and wrong. And this is too.
Reading is not a crime. He’s acting like the thought police. And no, I'm not being hypocritical- I would not freak out were the roles reversed, even if it were it something else like porn or I dunno, whatever.
posted by Nixy at 12:53 PM on November 2, 2011 [5 favorites]
The salient point here is that he’s reacted to his insecurity very badly; he’s hounding you, accusing you, and trying to make you feel guilty. People should never guilt trip other people like that. If they don’t like what you’re doing, it’s okay to say so- gently and honestly. It’s okay to show that he’s hurt by this. It’s also okay to leave, with or without explanation. Freaking out about it and making you the bad guy is not okay.
Maybe I’m just a big hippy who believes that love is freedom, but I don’t think you can really call it “love” if you’re reacting out of a need to control and shame someone because you’re insecure. I had a boyfriend once who didn’t like that I read “literature” at ALL, because he thought it made me too stuck-up and was afraid he couldn’t keep up or something. Jesus, that was just so twisted and wrong. And this is too.
Reading is not a crime. He’s acting like the thought police. And no, I'm not being hypocritical- I would not freak out were the roles reversed, even if it were it something else like porn or I dunno, whatever.
posted by Nixy at 12:53 PM on November 2, 2011 [5 favorites]
Christ Almighty, it's okay in 2011 for a boyfriend to complain about what his girlfriend is reading, because it makes him feel insecure???
Yep, it's still okay for one person in a relationship to communicate how the behavior of the other person makes them feel. It's preferred even.
posted by Dano St at 12:54 PM on November 2, 2011 [12 favorites]
Yep, it's still okay for one person in a relationship to communicate how the behavior of the other person makes them feel. It's preferred even.
posted by Dano St at 12:54 PM on November 2, 2011 [12 favorites]
This has nothing to do with the book and all about setting appropriate boundaries
I think Jessamyn's basically right but it's tempting to suggest you give him one more chance to see if it ever happens again with a book that is not by Robert Greene. The category of "books that present themselves as how-to books while revelling in the joys of manipulating people and making them paranoid" is largely occupied by books by Robert Greene. (I believe he does it with a very evident ironic wink, but still.)
posted by oliverburkeman at 12:57 PM on November 2, 2011
I think Jessamyn's basically right but it's tempting to suggest you give him one more chance to see if it ever happens again with a book that is not by Robert Greene. The category of "books that present themselves as how-to books while revelling in the joys of manipulating people and making them paranoid" is largely occupied by books by Robert Greene. (I believe he does it with a very evident ironic wink, but still.)
posted by oliverburkeman at 12:57 PM on November 2, 2011
Picking on this book because of its title or content is his way of trying to control you and put you on the defensive. It's a way to put you into a "please him/appease him" dynamic. That's super lame.
I would drop this guy because that is some major disrespect and manipulation to be trotting out in the beginning of a relationship. And if he's known you a long time - well geesh! Then he should know your character well enough by now. Truly, you have a problem here, and it is not your choice of reading materials or "misuse" of a highlighter marker.
I think I have a copy of this book lying around. Yes I've read The 48 Laws of Power. I've read a book or two about the PUA scene. Frankly, I consider these books essential social knowledge. This information is part of the zeitgeist of our age. Why wouldn't you read about how to see through douchey pick-up lines you'll hear at parties, or how to discern if someone is your ally in business or clearly using you??
The problem is not your choice of reading material, it's your choice of boyfriend.
Dump him if he continues to treat you like a sneaky disobedient child. Find someone who respects you as the wonderful and intelligent woman that you are.
posted by jbenben at 1:00 PM on November 2, 2011 [5 favorites]
I would drop this guy because that is some major disrespect and manipulation to be trotting out in the beginning of a relationship. And if he's known you a long time - well geesh! Then he should know your character well enough by now. Truly, you have a problem here, and it is not your choice of reading materials or "misuse" of a highlighter marker.
I think I have a copy of this book lying around. Yes I've read The 48 Laws of Power. I've read a book or two about the PUA scene. Frankly, I consider these books essential social knowledge. This information is part of the zeitgeist of our age. Why wouldn't you read about how to see through douchey pick-up lines you'll hear at parties, or how to discern if someone is your ally in business or clearly using you??
The problem is not your choice of reading material, it's your choice of boyfriend.
Dump him if he continues to treat you like a sneaky disobedient child. Find someone who respects you as the wonderful and intelligent woman that you are.
posted by jbenben at 1:00 PM on November 2, 2011 [5 favorites]
Maybe I’m just a big hippy who believes that love is freedom, but I don’t think you can really call it “love” if you’re reacting out of a need to control and shame someone because you’re insecure.
There are huge numbers of people that are insecure in this world, generally as a result of being abused as children. There is no shame in being insecure. Sometimes these people act in ways that are hard to understand for those who are not insecure. Sometimes these ways of acting can also make relationships difficult. You need to determine if the positives outweigh the negatives. But knee-jerk dismissal of insecure behavior doesn't help you figure out what it is you want or if you are right for one another.
We should not dismiss an entire human being because he is scared and concerned for his own welfare. And, frankly, I can understand why someone might be concerned that a new girlfriend, who they are just figuring out, is reading the equivalent of "How to manipulate people."
I did a little more research. The book refers to the targets as "victims." This language is not helpful, especially if your boyfriend has some insecurities. His insecurities are not a reason for him to be punished or looked down upon by anyone. They are something that needs to be understood.
Obviously, each of you are going to have to figure out whether or not the other is right for them. I think a simple explanation that you are not going to be using the techniques in the book to manipulate him, full stop, should be enough. If, after that explanation is given, he is still uncomfortable with you, then I think the two of you are not compatible.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:06 PM on November 2, 2011 [12 favorites]
There are huge numbers of people that are insecure in this world, generally as a result of being abused as children. There is no shame in being insecure. Sometimes these people act in ways that are hard to understand for those who are not insecure. Sometimes these ways of acting can also make relationships difficult. You need to determine if the positives outweigh the negatives. But knee-jerk dismissal of insecure behavior doesn't help you figure out what it is you want or if you are right for one another.
We should not dismiss an entire human being because he is scared and concerned for his own welfare. And, frankly, I can understand why someone might be concerned that a new girlfriend, who they are just figuring out, is reading the equivalent of "How to manipulate people."
I did a little more research. The book refers to the targets as "victims." This language is not helpful, especially if your boyfriend has some insecurities. His insecurities are not a reason for him to be punished or looked down upon by anyone. They are something that needs to be understood.
Obviously, each of you are going to have to figure out whether or not the other is right for them. I think a simple explanation that you are not going to be using the techniques in the book to manipulate him, full stop, should be enough. If, after that explanation is given, he is still uncomfortable with you, then I think the two of you are not compatible.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:06 PM on November 2, 2011 [12 favorites]
It's just a book, not a personal manifesto. Fundamentally, the responsibility for acting like a grownup is an individual responsibility, and not a project for a boyfriend or girlfriend.
posted by KokuRyu at 1:09 PM on November 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by KokuRyu at 1:09 PM on November 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
Mod note: If this question is pushing your buttons please walk away until you can come back, offer advice to the OP and not start an argument with other commenters in this thread, from this point forward, please.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:13 PM on November 2, 2011
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:13 PM on November 2, 2011
Best answer: Ad hominem I think the fact that you hilighted stuff in the book is key here. People don't usually hilight works of literature they are enjoying as a diversion. People hilight things they are studying and and want to remember later.
I think plenty of people highlight or write notes in the margin or little checkmarks or whatever even if they are enjoying a book as a diversion. Or she may have liked a turn of phrase, or wanted to further research something. I don't see the highlighting as damning.
posted by mlis at 1:15 PM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
I think plenty of people highlight or write notes in the margin or little checkmarks or whatever even if they are enjoying a book as a diversion. Or she may have liked a turn of phrase, or wanted to further research something. I don't see the highlighting as damning.
posted by mlis at 1:15 PM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
Presenting it as your boyfriend being paranoid about your literary intrests is a little skewed. He (openly) is upset by a single book and his attempt to discuss it was met with a classic bit of manipulation to make his discomfort not only unacceptable, but shut down the conversation. I've been married five years, have a kid, and I would be weirded out if the other anachronism started reading seduction manuals and PUA handbooks. I don't buy that they're part of the zeitgeist, or essential social reading (cue me dropping out of society then) - this sorts of social power play manuals have been around for a lot longer than PUA.
I get a huge sense of discomfort when people talk about how books never affect the reader in any way (usually in close proximity to someone talking about how a book saved their life). What you read informs you and if my paner were reading something like this I would wonder what it was informing them of. Mind you, in my relationship that would be an open communication, as opposed to a clumsy opening gambit and conversation killing response about how hurtful the emotions are and how invalid their response is. We try for a blanket rule that all emotional responses are valid (often irrational, but valid) because denying or minimizing that response leads to power imbalances and an essential sort of dishonesty because none ever truly talks about how they feel since it might hurt someone's feelings.
posted by geek anachronism at 1:15 PM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
I get a huge sense of discomfort when people talk about how books never affect the reader in any way (usually in close proximity to someone talking about how a book saved their life). What you read informs you and if my paner were reading something like this I would wonder what it was informing them of. Mind you, in my relationship that would be an open communication, as opposed to a clumsy opening gambit and conversation killing response about how hurtful the emotions are and how invalid their response is. We try for a blanket rule that all emotional responses are valid (often irrational, but valid) because denying or minimizing that response leads to power imbalances and an essential sort of dishonesty because none ever truly talks about how they feel since it might hurt someone's feelings.
posted by geek anachronism at 1:15 PM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
I was with you all the way up to the point when I realized that The Art of Seduction is The Art of Seduction. Then I recoiled in horror.
As a data point, had I seen my now-fiance reading The Art of Seduction when we first started dating, I would have probably broken up with him. No joke. That book is a boil on the ass of humanity that demonstrates a complete and utter disregard for the agency and desires of (primarily) women. It makes me feel gross just thinking about it and I haven't even seen what parts you highlighted.
My belief is that you're free to read whatever you want, but the other half of a romantic couple is also free to be concerned when what you're reading specifically deals with manipulating people you want to/are sleeping with. It may be a sociological exploration to you, but it's disturbing him and I'm not sure I can disagree with his gut response. Stop demanding that he not be disturbed (because it's to you irrational) and maybe the conversation will improve.
Also, the Machiavelli comparison would only hold water if The Prince were a How To Guide for PUA.
posted by lydhre at 1:24 PM on November 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
As a data point, had I seen my now-fiance reading The Art of Seduction when we first started dating, I would have probably broken up with him. No joke. That book is a boil on the ass of humanity that demonstrates a complete and utter disregard for the agency and desires of (primarily) women. It makes me feel gross just thinking about it and I haven't even seen what parts you highlighted.
My belief is that you're free to read whatever you want, but the other half of a romantic couple is also free to be concerned when what you're reading specifically deals with manipulating people you want to/are sleeping with. It may be a sociological exploration to you, but it's disturbing him and I'm not sure I can disagree with his gut response. Stop demanding that he not be disturbed (because it's to you irrational) and maybe the conversation will improve.
Also, the Machiavelli comparison would only hold water if The Prince were a How To Guide for PUA.
posted by lydhre at 1:24 PM on November 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
Wow....if the extent of his trust for you ends when you want to read a book...any book....that he finds objectionable, that is a major red flag. If it were a gal and me, I would be dusting off my suitcase. What's next, will your choice of Aussie Hair Care products lead him to believe that you are planning to move away and question your motives when watching the Travel Channel?
Sorry to be glib, but these type of subtle (or not so subtle) control issues that men and women have about their SOs is just not acceptable. If he cannot trust you to simply read a book - on any subject - then that is a major problem.
He is extending his insecurities to limit your freedom of choice about your personal desires and behavior. If this was an issue of your shooting heroin, well then that might be something to chime in about. But reading a book? Oh please.
Maybe this is not the time to DTMF, but it is time to SSRRHMFE (Set_Some_Rules_Regarding_His_M_F_Expectations).
posted by lampshade at 1:29 PM on November 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
Sorry to be glib, but these type of subtle (or not so subtle) control issues that men and women have about their SOs is just not acceptable. If he cannot trust you to simply read a book - on any subject - then that is a major problem.
He is extending his insecurities to limit your freedom of choice about your personal desires and behavior. If this was an issue of your shooting heroin, well then that might be something to chime in about. But reading a book? Oh please.
Maybe this is not the time to DTMF, but it is time to SSRRHMFE (Set_Some_Rules_Regarding_His_M_F_Expectations).
posted by lampshade at 1:29 PM on November 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
It's a how-to guide. It's a how-to guide to something you're not supposed to be doing. It's not a narrative, and it's not a work of literary or historical importance. No matter what your motivation is, you're being really insulting and suspicious in your reaction.
posted by dagnyscott at 1:29 PM on November 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by dagnyscott at 1:29 PM on November 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
On a more constructive note, I'd sit down with the boyfriend and calmly and logically figure out what is on or off the table.
Lesbian erotica?
Exploring bisexuality?
"How to help my man be better in bed"?
Porn, of what kind?
Books about affairs or with manipulative main characters?
Then I would figure out if he needs books to be cleared with him, or what kind of procedure for questionable materials should be followed to make him comfortable.
Then I would think very long and hard about if I wanted to continue the relationship with someone who needed to limit me in that specific manner.
posted by griselda at 1:33 PM on November 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
Lesbian erotica?
Exploring bisexuality?
"How to help my man be better in bed"?
Porn, of what kind?
Books about affairs or with manipulative main characters?
Then I would figure out if he needs books to be cleared with him, or what kind of procedure for questionable materials should be followed to make him comfortable.
Then I would think very long and hard about if I wanted to continue the relationship with someone who needed to limit me in that specific manner.
posted by griselda at 1:33 PM on November 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
Best answer: It's a how-to guide. It's a how-to guide to something you're not supposed to be doing.
I think a lot of people are just not getting something here. For many people, especially women, these techniques are used ON US every day. Why in the WORLD wouldn't you be interested in learning more about how this is done? So you can identify it, label it, call it out, become immune to it?
Anyone who JUST CANNOT IMAGINE why a person would read this book for any other reason than to seduce people has a serious failure of imagination.
posted by peep at 1:37 PM on November 2, 2011 [18 favorites]
I think a lot of people are just not getting something here. For many people, especially women, these techniques are used ON US every day. Why in the WORLD wouldn't you be interested in learning more about how this is done? So you can identify it, label it, call it out, become immune to it?
Anyone who JUST CANNOT IMAGINE why a person would read this book for any other reason than to seduce people has a serious failure of imagination.
posted by peep at 1:37 PM on November 2, 2011 [18 favorites]
It's not just all of the above, this is a book about manipulation. Whenever you re-frame the argument in any way, reasonable (why does this make you feel insecure?) or unreasonable (why are you trying to control what I read?), you will be perceived as manipulating him using a stratagem from the book. If you give him a choice, as presented above "Can you accept that promise from me and can we move forward or is this a deal breaker from you that I read this book?", that is nothing but a manipulative ultimatum now. Almost anything you say and do from here on out can be looked at as insincere and manipulative.
Both of you seem to have reasonable fears to me. Afraid he doesn't understand your intellectual tourism and will try to censor you. Afraid you are reading a book by a reprehensible man and plan on using new found (and highlighted!) skills to be horrible to him.
The only way I can see for you to back away from the edge here, is if both of you, independently, see the other person's points and let this fade. You can do your part, he has to do his.
posted by Garm at 1:41 PM on November 2, 2011
Both of you seem to have reasonable fears to me. Afraid he doesn't understand your intellectual tourism and will try to censor you. Afraid you are reading a book by a reprehensible man and plan on using new found (and highlighted!) skills to be horrible to him.
The only way I can see for you to back away from the edge here, is if both of you, independently, see the other person's points and let this fade. You can do your part, he has to do his.
posted by Garm at 1:41 PM on November 2, 2011
After reading your previous questions I think the problem is that you're a drama tornado. Perhaps deliberately, perhaps as a side effect of your relationship choices. But if this boyfriend is the same boyfriend as in your other questions, the problem is much larger than your book selection and you are asking (to stick with the metaphor) about which arrangement of deck chairs looks best next to that iceberg.
posted by justkevin at 1:42 PM on November 2, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by justkevin at 1:42 PM on November 2, 2011 [7 favorites]
Best answer: Hmmm. Some really polarizing positions out there, extremes from "he has no right to even have an opinion on what you read" to "he should dump you because what you're reading indicates that you're psychotic." As a bibliophile myself, I believe that what we read influences who we are, and is a reasonable indication of who we are -- not necessarily in the "She reads Nietzsche she must be a nihilist" but more like "She reads Nietzsche she must have some thoughts about nihilism." Clearly many of the things we read encourage us to be less like the author, or the characters, in the book. Peaceful people have read Mein Kampf, I'm pretty sure of it.
I think that asking him to have no opinion is inappropriate, and that the OP never tried that. She was clearly trying to show him that his conclusions about her relationship to this book didn't match her actual relationship to the book. She is simply asking us how to help him believe her. And he's not telling her what she can and can't read. He's reacting to what she did read. Totally different. So we don't need to help her through setting boundaries on his book limits; as far as I can tell, he hasn't set any.
So, OP. My advice: talk to him about why you read the book, what you thought about it, why you were intrigued by the specific highlighted passages. Explain why you highlighted them. Ask him to reflect on whether he has ever seen you employ these tactics, on him or on anyone else. Discuss any observations he has on this subject. Be open to the possibility that you've (unconsciously?) found some of the ideas worth applying. Be willing to change if that turns out to (a) be the case and (b) be something you don't want.
What I wouldn't do is dismiss the notion that reading changes you, and that your reading list indicates something about who you are. Have you ever walked into someone's house, looked at their bookshelf, and not formed some kind of opinion about what kind of person they are? I haven't.
posted by Capri at 1:44 PM on November 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
I think that asking him to have no opinion is inappropriate, and that the OP never tried that. She was clearly trying to show him that his conclusions about her relationship to this book didn't match her actual relationship to the book. She is simply asking us how to help him believe her. And he's not telling her what she can and can't read. He's reacting to what she did read. Totally different. So we don't need to help her through setting boundaries on his book limits; as far as I can tell, he hasn't set any.
So, OP. My advice: talk to him about why you read the book, what you thought about it, why you were intrigued by the specific highlighted passages. Explain why you highlighted them. Ask him to reflect on whether he has ever seen you employ these tactics, on him or on anyone else. Discuss any observations he has on this subject. Be open to the possibility that you've (unconsciously?) found some of the ideas worth applying. Be willing to change if that turns out to (a) be the case and (b) be something you don't want.
What I wouldn't do is dismiss the notion that reading changes you, and that your reading list indicates something about who you are. Have you ever walked into someone's house, looked at their bookshelf, and not formed some kind of opinion about what kind of person they are? I haven't.
posted by Capri at 1:44 PM on November 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
Mod note: seriously, this is relationship question. Stop with the interrogation of the OP and help them with the relationship issue or email other concerns to them directly. Thanks.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:49 PM on November 2, 2011
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:49 PM on November 2, 2011
The OP can read whatever the hell she wants for whatever reason. Maybe the fact that it's an objectionable PUA book is what made it interesting, i.e. what's all the fuss about. She shouldn't stop reading a book because he doesn't like it. And she shouldn't have to reassure him that she won't use what she's learned.
He has a right to be pissed off if he finds that she's using what she learned to manipulate him, otherwise, it's just a gross book that she is reading. If she reads a Wiccan book, should he confront her about possible spells she might cast?
He can say, I find this book very distasteful and here's why. And she can reply, thanks for sharing. She can reassure him that she has no desire to put into practice what she learns or not. Or she can say, I just find this subject very interesting...I was a victim of this, or my friend was or I wanted to know how it works or it was a book that caught my eye and I bought it on a whim and it's rather fascinating.
No one should have to apologize for what they're reading in order to allay someone else's fears and insecurities
posted by shoesietart at 1:50 PM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
He has a right to be pissed off if he finds that she's using what she learned to manipulate him, otherwise, it's just a gross book that she is reading. If she reads a Wiccan book, should he confront her about possible spells she might cast?
He can say, I find this book very distasteful and here's why. And she can reply, thanks for sharing. She can reassure him that she has no desire to put into practice what she learns or not. Or she can say, I just find this subject very interesting...I was a victim of this, or my friend was or I wanted to know how it works or it was a book that caught my eye and I bought it on a whim and it's rather fascinating.
No one should have to apologize for what they're reading in order to allay someone else's fears and insecurities
posted by shoesietart at 1:50 PM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for the helpful guys.
I just want to point out that I picked the book simply out of curiosity. I wasn't aware of any PUA trends and I wasn't familiar with any of Greene's work.
I think griselda's first suggestion is a very refreshing option for the both of us.
posted by xbeautychicx at 2:18 PM on November 2, 2011
I just want to point out that I picked the book simply out of curiosity. I wasn't aware of any PUA trends and I wasn't familiar with any of Greene's work.
I think griselda's first suggestion is a very refreshing option for the both of us.
posted by xbeautychicx at 2:18 PM on November 2, 2011
I thought xbeautychicx's question was how to resolve this in a way that made them both happy. I don't believe it's useful to get into an argument about rights and wrongs; I imagine the subject matter freaked the boyfriend out, and he's acting poorly. I absolutely understand why xbeautychicx wants him to stop attacking her for her choice of reading material. I think the best path to peace will be an honest attempt at giving a sympathetic ear to his perspective, and then asking him to listen to hers. There are, of course, no guarantees, but at it might be an opportunity for mutual understanding, forgiveness, makeup sex, and maybe, xbeautychicx, if you're lucky, an interesting conversation about a book.
posted by jcrcarter at 2:21 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by jcrcarter at 2:21 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
The OP already talked to him about it and explained herself. The boyfriend is continuing to ask about the OP's motivations and asking if her actions are from the book. That's kind of beyond the pale. I'm not sure how exactly to move forward and be happy after this, but I think jessamyn's answer could get you closest.
posted by sweetkid at 2:31 PM on November 2, 2011
posted by sweetkid at 2:31 PM on November 2, 2011
I'm surprised this is an issue. It suggests that you two don't know each other very well, or your boyfriend doesn't trust you. Maybe it's your response to his questions that made him suspicious or weirder him out?
Greene's books are silly. They are beloved of rappers (he co-wrote a self-help book with 50 Cent) and incarcerated felons (seriously). They are not literature, they are litertainment cooked up by Greene in collaboration with a book packager (the type of publishing exec who dreams up, say, a new line of teen romances then finds hacks to write them to order). So, the book, in my view, is too silly to give him any basis for thinking you are in training to become a Master Seducer/Manipulator.
In my view, one's defects in literary taste, rather than morals, are more fairly called into question by reading Greene's books.
posted by jayder at 2:38 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Greene's books are silly. They are beloved of rappers (he co-wrote a self-help book with 50 Cent) and incarcerated felons (seriously). They are not literature, they are litertainment cooked up by Greene in collaboration with a book packager (the type of publishing exec who dreams up, say, a new line of teen romances then finds hacks to write them to order). So, the book, in my view, is too silly to give him any basis for thinking you are in training to become a Master Seducer/Manipulator.
In my view, one's defects in literary taste, rather than morals, are more fairly called into question by reading Greene's books.
posted by jayder at 2:38 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think a lot of people are just not getting something here. For many people, especially women, these techniques are used ON US every day. Why in the WORLD wouldn't you be interested in learning more about how this is done? So you can identify it, label it, call it out, become immune to it?
Anyone who JUST CANNOT IMAGINE why a person would read this book for any other reason than to seduce people has a serious failure of imagination.
Ok, show of hands: how many of us have read The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged? Or Battlefield Earth? It was just for the articles, right?
I wholeheartedly agree with this, but I think part of the problem is that it's impossible for us to get a read on the poster's feelings about the broader implications of the book: her explanation is coy, a little glib and dismissive of her boyfriend's concerns (not that he doesn't come off sounding like a pushy dick, too). I would have a much more equivocal response if the poster herself had deployed any of the arguments made in her favor in the comments. The fact that she doesn't acknowledge or even mention the problematic aspects of the book is the real issue, I think, both in the thread and in her spat with her boyfriend.
posted by pullayup at 2:50 PM on November 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
Anyone who JUST CANNOT IMAGINE why a person would read this book for any other reason than to seduce people has a serious failure of imagination.
Ok, show of hands: how many of us have read The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged? Or Battlefield Earth? It was just for the articles, right?
I wholeheartedly agree with this, but I think part of the problem is that it's impossible for us to get a read on the poster's feelings about the broader implications of the book: her explanation is coy, a little glib and dismissive of her boyfriend's concerns (not that he doesn't come off sounding like a pushy dick, too). I would have a much more equivocal response if the poster herself had deployed any of the arguments made in her favor in the comments. The fact that she doesn't acknowledge or even mention the problematic aspects of the book is the real issue, I think, both in the thread and in her spat with her boyfriend.
posted by pullayup at 2:50 PM on November 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
What pullayup said.
posted by small_ruminant at 2:52 PM on November 2, 2011
posted by small_ruminant at 2:52 PM on November 2, 2011
The content of the book is absolutely a red herring and is begging the question.
The issue is how you and your boyfriend deal with conflict. It seems like your boyfriend didn't immediately give you the benefit of the doubt, which is what a mature person does in a relationship.
If he doesn't believe you when you explain your motivations to him (I'm assuming good faith on your part), you really need to question whether that's a feature you want in a relationship, because it probably isn't going away.
posted by auto-correct at 2:53 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
The issue is how you and your boyfriend deal with conflict. It seems like your boyfriend didn't immediately give you the benefit of the doubt, which is what a mature person does in a relationship.
If he doesn't believe you when you explain your motivations to him (I'm assuming good faith on your part), you really need to question whether that's a feature you want in a relationship, because it probably isn't going away.
posted by auto-correct at 2:53 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Pullayup: I was never dismissive of my partner's feelings. In fact we spent all of Halloween night talking about his feelings and concerns.
The fact that she doesn't acknowledge or even mention the problematic aspects of the book is the real issue, I think, both in the thread and in her spat with her boyfriend.
Um, perhaps there was a misunderstanding but I clearly understand the "problematic aspects of the book."
posted by xbeautychicx at 2:59 PM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
The fact that she doesn't acknowledge or even mention the problematic aspects of the book is the real issue, I think, both in the thread and in her spat with her boyfriend.
Um, perhaps there was a misunderstanding but I clearly understand the "problematic aspects of the book."
posted by xbeautychicx at 2:59 PM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
Next time tell him that you're doing story research to fill out the character of some jerky dude.
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:54 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:54 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: If anything, you weren't dismissive of his feelings enough. If he's this insecure, you're probably not going to be able to reassure him. I'm afraid this will crop up over and over again as long as you are together.
It's a how-to guide to something you're not supposed to be doing.
Please don't let your boyfriend, or some stranger on the internet, tell you what you are not "supposed" to be doing.
posted by spaltavian at 4:05 PM on November 2, 2011
It's a how-to guide to something you're not supposed to be doing.
Please don't let your boyfriend, or some stranger on the internet, tell you what you are not "supposed" to be doing.
posted by spaltavian at 4:05 PM on November 2, 2011
The right thing for him to say: "I know you are reading this book, and I hear you telling me that you are reading it for pleasure and have no intention of attempting these techniques on me, but I find myself unable to trust that, and that means we have real issues. Let's talk."
In the absence of that, the right thing for her to say: "I have not hidden this book from you, and I have told you that I am reading it for pleasure and have no intention of attempting these techniques on you, but you find yourself unable to trust that, and that means we have real issues. Let's talk."
Because it isn't about the book.
posted by davejay at 4:08 PM on November 2, 2011 [5 favorites]
In the absence of that, the right thing for her to say: "I have not hidden this book from you, and I have told you that I am reading it for pleasure and have no intention of attempting these techniques on you, but you find yourself unable to trust that, and that means we have real issues. Let's talk."
Because it isn't about the book.
posted by davejay at 4:08 PM on November 2, 2011 [5 favorites]
Does "problematic aspects of the book" mean its "boldness?" Because if I wanted to be condescending about someone's concerns, that would be pretty much the perfect thing to say. "Yes, I understand why you would have a problem with this book, on account of how bold it is."
If someone was reading Mein Kampf, I would give them the benefit of the doubt. If they described it as "bold," I would immediately conclude they were a Nazi sympathizer.
posted by RobotHero at 4:29 PM on November 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
If someone was reading Mein Kampf, I would give them the benefit of the doubt. If they described it as "bold," I would immediately conclude they were a Nazi sympathizer.
posted by RobotHero at 4:29 PM on November 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
Hah, I used to date a girl who had Greene's previous book, the 48 Laws of Power, prominently placed on her bookshelf. One night the creepy title drove me to pull it out and flip through it, and I started teasing her about it. Frankly, it kind of creeped me out, but I knew this girl was ambitious and curious, so we talked about it.
What ended up happening was she had me read some of the chapters out loud to her, and every once and a while we'd stop and talk about what the author was saying and how it might apply in our lives.
When I first picked up the book I was really skeptical of it, and the fact that this girl had chosen to buy and read it. Afterwards, we had learned a lot about each other, and had a really nice evening of reading to each other and talking about life, our goals, dreams, and how we approach situations. And I realized that a girl having this book on her shelf (a book I still think is laughable, creepy self-help claptrap) doesn't make her a power-hungry, Machiavellian manipulator, it just makes her a person who bought a book once.
So my suggestion to you is to use this as an opportunity for discussion with your boyfriend, if he's open to it. He might not be, and I can understand his initial reaction, but he's going a bit overboard if he refuses to engage with you rather than make snide comments about how you must be secretly seducing him blah blah blah.
posted by malapropist at 4:43 PM on November 2, 2011 [5 favorites]
What ended up happening was she had me read some of the chapters out loud to her, and every once and a while we'd stop and talk about what the author was saying and how it might apply in our lives.
When I first picked up the book I was really skeptical of it, and the fact that this girl had chosen to buy and read it. Afterwards, we had learned a lot about each other, and had a really nice evening of reading to each other and talking about life, our goals, dreams, and how we approach situations. And I realized that a girl having this book on her shelf (a book I still think is laughable, creepy self-help claptrap) doesn't make her a power-hungry, Machiavellian manipulator, it just makes her a person who bought a book once.
So my suggestion to you is to use this as an opportunity for discussion with your boyfriend, if he's open to it. He might not be, and I can understand his initial reaction, but he's going a bit overboard if he refuses to engage with you rather than make snide comments about how you must be secretly seducing him blah blah blah.
posted by malapropist at 4:43 PM on November 2, 2011 [5 favorites]
Weirdly, if someone is worried you're being manipulative (and you're sure they're wrong), the most constructive thing you can do is just keep being yourself and let them worry it out on their own.
Setting out to prove to someone that you're not being manipulative is basically a lost cause. ("Wait, you're only pointing out how unmanipulative you are because you want to manipulate me into thinking I'm not being manipulated! I'm on to you!") And getting mad or telling someone off for doubting you is... well, it's a perfectly understandable reaction and we all do it sometimes, but taken to extremes it's also a classic manipulative-abuser-type behavior, so for someone who's already worried about that shit it may push some buttons.
It sounds like you feel basically like "I told him he was wrong, why won't he believe me?" But given his fears, your explicit say-so isn't likely to change his mind anyway. That's frustrating and unfortunate but there you go. Better just to back off and let him unclench a bit on his own instead of keep poking at it.
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:35 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Setting out to prove to someone that you're not being manipulative is basically a lost cause. ("Wait, you're only pointing out how unmanipulative you are because you want to manipulate me into thinking I'm not being manipulated! I'm on to you!") And getting mad or telling someone off for doubting you is... well, it's a perfectly understandable reaction and we all do it sometimes, but taken to extremes it's also a classic manipulative-abuser-type behavior, so for someone who's already worried about that shit it may push some buttons.
It sounds like you feel basically like "I told him he was wrong, why won't he believe me?" But given his fears, your explicit say-so isn't likely to change his mind anyway. That's frustrating and unfortunate but there you go. Better just to back off and let him unclench a bit on his own instead of keep poking at it.
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:35 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
This goes far beyond a disagreement over reading material. Granted, the PUA movement is absolutely repellent, but I don't believe your reading a book on the subject justifies your boyfriend's extreme reaction.
Let's take a look at this -
* he wonders if I want to use that book as a manual of manipulation for our relationship
* he was still unconvinced of my intentions.
* he's constantly questioning whether I mean what I say or if I picked it up from that book
* he's never actually read the book, he's only analyzed the few things that were highlighted
Have you ever given him any reason whatsoever to believe you would behave that way towards him or anyone else? The behavior he's attributing to you could easily be defined as sociopathic. Unless you're glossing over some ongoing nuclear-grade manipulation issues in this relationship, his behavior indicates not only a massive lack of trust, but real contempt for you as a person.
I couldn't be in a relationship under the cloud of that kind of suspicion, and would be hard pressed to forgive someone who thought I was capable of treating someone I loved that way. He needs to drop it or you need to move on.
posted by Space Kitty at 7:27 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Let's take a look at this -
* he wonders if I want to use that book as a manual of manipulation for our relationship
* he was still unconvinced of my intentions.
* he's constantly questioning whether I mean what I say or if I picked it up from that book
* he's never actually read the book, he's only analyzed the few things that were highlighted
Have you ever given him any reason whatsoever to believe you would behave that way towards him or anyone else? The behavior he's attributing to you could easily be defined as sociopathic. Unless you're glossing over some ongoing nuclear-grade manipulation issues in this relationship, his behavior indicates not only a massive lack of trust, but real contempt for you as a person.
I couldn't be in a relationship under the cloud of that kind of suspicion, and would be hard pressed to forgive someone who thought I was capable of treating someone I loved that way. He needs to drop it or you need to move on.
posted by Space Kitty at 7:27 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
>I've tried the whole, "hey it's really hurts my feelings when you say x about me."
>Is there any insight that I can share to make us both happy?
For one thing, OP, you're reading Art of Seduction in part because you want to understand the kinds of mistakes, miscommunications, misunderstandings, and missed opportunities that so often occur in relationships, no?
Remember, in what is surely its most pejorative and negative sense, seduction is the process of attending to unmet and often unrecognized needs.
Really, though, the larger issues are these:
1) As noted by ad hominem et al. above, OP did indeed apply the kinda weak deflection that just because she was reading a How-To book it's wholly unreasonable to infer that she might Want-To.
2) More importantly, OP's BF is apparently wildly insecure and fragile on this issue. It's almost as though he thinks he's not worth seducing, or at the other extreme, that his freedom has been stolen from him, and that far greener pastures beckon.
At any rate, since OP apparently doesn't mind saying things that can be construed as manipulative-- which is to say, performed with the intent of a specific result--
this is an opportunity for her to continue to dig into the Art of Seduction. It's much closer to a portfolio of paintings than a manual of brushwork, but still and all, the intensity of OP's BF's response means that there's an extremely strong emotional trigger in play. Figure it out, and OP will quite possibly have a means of making BF feel understood and cherished at a depth no earlier girlfriend has.
posted by darth_tedious at 7:48 PM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
>Is there any insight that I can share to make us both happy?
For one thing, OP, you're reading Art of Seduction in part because you want to understand the kinds of mistakes, miscommunications, misunderstandings, and missed opportunities that so often occur in relationships, no?
Remember, in what is surely its most pejorative and negative sense, seduction is the process of attending to unmet and often unrecognized needs.
Really, though, the larger issues are these:
1) As noted by ad hominem et al. above, OP did indeed apply the kinda weak deflection that just because she was reading a How-To book it's wholly unreasonable to infer that she might Want-To.
2) More importantly, OP's BF is apparently wildly insecure and fragile on this issue. It's almost as though he thinks he's not worth seducing, or at the other extreme, that his freedom has been stolen from him, and that far greener pastures beckon.
At any rate, since OP apparently doesn't mind saying things that can be construed as manipulative-- which is to say, performed with the intent of a specific result--
this is an opportunity for her to continue to dig into the Art of Seduction. It's much closer to a portfolio of paintings than a manual of brushwork, but still and all, the intensity of OP's BF's response means that there's an extremely strong emotional trigger in play. Figure it out, and OP will quite possibly have a means of making BF feel understood and cherished at a depth no earlier girlfriend has.
posted by darth_tedious at 7:48 PM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
I've actually read that book and I never took it to be a manual, just observations of things (some messed up) that can incite attraction. I'm really puzzled by the reaction of paranoia; I don't think it's any more like PUA stuff than a chemistry book could be labeled terrorist because you could use the information for bad things. I highlighted in mine too because the literary examples were the reason I read it, and I highlight all nonfiction. I've never "used" any of the information in real life because I've never had to (married, and it mostly either articulates non-repellent stuff you already know, or else is repelent, or doesn't come naturally and thus wouldn't be attractive if practiced by someone purposely).
My husband has never cared that I read the book, or that it's still lying around here somewhere. Honestly, I don't think I could date someone who got so paranoid about a book that nothing I said mattered; I would just dump him if he isn't willing to listen to reason or read it himself. If he was initially paranoid but was willing to listen, it wouldn't be a big deal. He sounds unreasonable and insecure at worst, or else a bad match for you at best (because the idea of reading and highlighting something out if curiousity is so alien to him that he won't believe you). I have difficultly being patient with that kind of person, though, so ymmv.
posted by Nattie at 4:07 AM on November 3, 2011 [5 favorites]
My husband has never cared that I read the book, or that it's still lying around here somewhere. Honestly, I don't think I could date someone who got so paranoid about a book that nothing I said mattered; I would just dump him if he isn't willing to listen to reason or read it himself. If he was initially paranoid but was willing to listen, it wouldn't be a big deal. He sounds unreasonable and insecure at worst, or else a bad match for you at best (because the idea of reading and highlighting something out if curiousity is so alien to him that he won't believe you). I have difficultly being patient with that kind of person, though, so ymmv.
posted by Nattie at 4:07 AM on November 3, 2011 [5 favorites]
I dunno, if I were religious and I saw my minister reading "How to Operate a Cult", I'd be kinda curious to why he/she were reading that. I wouldn't freak out, but I think I'd start questioning the way he/she acted. You know, just have little doubts about why he'd/she'd use a certain tone of voice HERE, and maybe why he/she was using a certain type of music, etc. Call me paranoid, but I'd be a little weirded out by it.
Maybe if my minister told me explicitly, "I'm trying to figure out why certain people join cults" I'd be a little less weirded out, but I'd still be wondering why he/she were reading "How to Operate a Cult" instead of "Cult Psychology" or something with a title that was, you know, a little less world-domination-oriented.
If I caught my coworker reading "How to Manipulate your Coworkers", I'd be, similarly, a little taken aback, though in this case, I'd probably laugh about it.
However, I've read "The Art of Seduction." I read it with my husband, and we also read the 48 Laws of Power together. Greene has an engaging, entertaining way of writing (IMHO), throwing in interesting vignettes, though for some reason I felt like I needed to take a shower afterwards (both books.) I could see how you've be inclined to read his stuff. Unlike others here I definitely see it as a PUA-type book
I'd say give your boyfriend the book. Suggest he read it before he starts villifying you. If he can't see why you'd be interested in reading such a thing, or refuses to, then maybe you guys aren't such a good match for one another.
Anyone who JUST CANNOT IMAGINE why a person would read this book for any other reason than to seduce people has a serious failure of imagination.
Perhaps, but, let's say, I stumbled across a PUA guide in my boyfriend's bedroom (in the early stages of dating), I think I'd definitely be "WTF?" I'd want to know, honestly, what he was getting from the guide. Entertainment? Pointers? Help for a lonely time in his life? Using techniques to still scout around? The important thing to me is that he would hopefully be honest about it.
posted by The ____ of Justice at 12:39 AM on November 4, 2011
Maybe if my minister told me explicitly, "I'm trying to figure out why certain people join cults" I'd be a little less weirded out, but I'd still be wondering why he/she were reading "How to Operate a Cult" instead of "Cult Psychology" or something with a title that was, you know, a little less world-domination-oriented.
If I caught my coworker reading "How to Manipulate your Coworkers", I'd be, similarly, a little taken aback, though in this case, I'd probably laugh about it.
However, I've read "The Art of Seduction." I read it with my husband, and we also read the 48 Laws of Power together. Greene has an engaging, entertaining way of writing (IMHO), throwing in interesting vignettes, though for some reason I felt like I needed to take a shower afterwards (both books.) I could see how you've be inclined to read his stuff. Unlike others here I definitely see it as a PUA-type book
I'd say give your boyfriend the book. Suggest he read it before he starts villifying you. If he can't see why you'd be interested in reading such a thing, or refuses to, then maybe you guys aren't such a good match for one another.
Anyone who JUST CANNOT IMAGINE why a person would read this book for any other reason than to seduce people has a serious failure of imagination.
Perhaps, but, let's say, I stumbled across a PUA guide in my boyfriend's bedroom (in the early stages of dating), I think I'd definitely be "WTF?" I'd want to know, honestly, what he was getting from the guide. Entertainment? Pointers? Help for a lonely time in his life? Using techniques to still scout around? The important thing to me is that he would hopefully be honest about it.
posted by The ____ of Justice at 12:39 AM on November 4, 2011
If you looked at my book collection and gave me any shit about what I was reading...well, let's just say that wouldn't go well.
posted by Grlnxtdr at 10:07 AM on November 4, 2011
posted by Grlnxtdr at 10:07 AM on November 4, 2011
To all the people who say their spouses or SOs wouldn't care... spouses and SOs are in a different category than people who's motivations and values you're still learning about. You don't have years of good faith built up.
posted by small_ruminant at 11:07 AM on November 4, 2011
posted by small_ruminant at 11:07 AM on November 4, 2011
If I had an SO who was reading that book and had highlighted passages in it, and I thought they might be a Machiavellian manipulator out for himself, I would be very glad that they'd highlighted passages for my convenience so I would know what they were doing to poor helpless me.
Because all he has to do is compare the highlighted bits to things the OP is actually doing, and he has her number. It would be like opening a box marked "Top Secret" and finding therein the treasure map with X marking the spot.
But he's not going ballistic over the things the OP is doing. He's going ballistic over the things the OP is learning about.
He isn't pointing out any manipulation tactics the OP is using on him. HE'S GETTING ENRAGED BECAUSE THE OP IS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW PEOPLE MANIPULATE OTHERS IN ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIPS.
And he's putting the focus on her and her motives. Frankly to me, his behaviour suggests that maybe the OP should be taking a closer look at him, because maybe she's going to turn up something later in the book that sounds familiar.
Or not. The OP knows his behaviour better than any of us, so if none of the book's contents remind her of him, that is little short of dandy. Unfortunately the question of why he is so determined to convict her and infantilize her for daring to have curiosity about interpersonal behaviour that is levelled at everyone, especially women, all the time... remains kinda troubling.
posted by tel3path at 3:29 PM on November 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
Because all he has to do is compare the highlighted bits to things the OP is actually doing, and he has her number. It would be like opening a box marked "Top Secret" and finding therein the treasure map with X marking the spot.
But he's not going ballistic over the things the OP is doing. He's going ballistic over the things the OP is learning about.
He isn't pointing out any manipulation tactics the OP is using on him. HE'S GETTING ENRAGED BECAUSE THE OP IS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW PEOPLE MANIPULATE OTHERS IN ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIPS.
And he's putting the focus on her and her motives. Frankly to me, his behaviour suggests that maybe the OP should be taking a closer look at him, because maybe she's going to turn up something later in the book that sounds familiar.
Or not. The OP knows his behaviour better than any of us, so if none of the book's contents remind her of him, that is little short of dandy. Unfortunately the question of why he is so determined to convict her and infantilize her for daring to have curiosity about interpersonal behaviour that is levelled at everyone, especially women, all the time... remains kinda troubling.
posted by tel3path at 3:29 PM on November 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Answer: no. And if he wants to discuss this with you further his options are to talk to you about it like an adult or read the book himself and talk to you like an adult. If he doesn't trust you, he doesn't trust you.
This has nothing to do with the book and all about setting appropriate boundaries and checking to make sure that your mutual trust of each other is, in fact, mutual. I'd spend some time using this as a litmus test to make sure you actually are on the same page about other things in your relationship and give this guy a chance to talk his feelings out and then move on of his own accord. You are perfectly okay telling him that you've talked to him enough about it and it's no longer an open topic for conversation and he can do what he wants with that information.
posted by jessamyn at 10:58 AM on November 2, 2011 [51 favorites]