Must Love Dogs?
October 24, 2011 12:19 AM Subscribe
How do I either learn to love animals or make my dislike of them a non-issue? Last month on AskMe, somebody asked how to filter out creeps on OkCupid. I realized that I displayed some of the creepy behaviors, but most of them (insecurity, neediness, etc) are things I'm aware of and actively, consciously dealing with. However, one line that came up was a dislike of dogs and domestic animals. I've never liked animals. I never had pets growing up, so I don't know how to deal with them. I cross the street when I see a dog coming, and even my friends' cats will scratch and attack me. I'm certainly not as vehement about it in real life as I am on MeFi, but anyone who knows me for any length of time will realize that I dislike animals. This, combined with my other issues, will probably be a serious problem. How do I mitigate or change my dislike and fear of animals? Or make it a non-issue? I live in an apartment, so buying a dog would not work.
Response by poster:
So we have everything in the open, do you dislike them because they're weird and alien and you haven't been around them much or did you have a bad experience? I think the OKCupid people would be understanding if, I don't know, you got bitten by a dog at a young age rather than just not liking them.
I pretty much hate animals, which is probably something I shouldn't say. They're not human beings, for one, and while I've made strides in understanding human being animals are, yes, alien to me.
I dated a vegan, somehow, and I have vegan friends but I still feel a visceral reaction at animal rights activities. I was never bitten by any animals, though my little brother was (he's okay with dogs). I have been scratched by cats, though I tend to sorta like cats. I remember some friends liked dogs, and I guess I got used to them? They're still really slobbery and weird.
So if you have a friend with a dog, rather than buying one yourself, maybe hang around and see why having one is appealing, go with them on a walk or excursion of some kind, just get used to being *around* one, then work up to interacting with it. Or if you want to interact with them, give them treats and you'll instantly make friends. It's pretty much that simple with dogs.
I guess I can try this.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 12:49 AM on October 24, 2011
So we have everything in the open, do you dislike them because they're weird and alien and you haven't been around them much or did you have a bad experience? I think the OKCupid people would be understanding if, I don't know, you got bitten by a dog at a young age rather than just not liking them.
I pretty much hate animals, which is probably something I shouldn't say. They're not human beings, for one, and while I've made strides in understanding human being animals are, yes, alien to me.
I dated a vegan, somehow, and I have vegan friends but I still feel a visceral reaction at animal rights activities. I was never bitten by any animals, though my little brother was (he's okay with dogs). I have been scratched by cats, though I tend to sorta like cats. I remember some friends liked dogs, and I guess I got used to them? They're still really slobbery and weird.
So if you have a friend with a dog, rather than buying one yourself, maybe hang around and see why having one is appealing, go with them on a walk or excursion of some kind, just get used to being *around* one, then work up to interacting with it. Or if you want to interact with them, give them treats and you'll instantly make friends. It's pretty much that simple with dogs.
I guess I can try this.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 12:49 AM on October 24, 2011
Best answer: You know, you don't have to like them - just be able to handle being around them.
For me, the problem with dogs was I had no idea what they were communicating. No matter whether the dog wanted to play or hug or bite, all I saw was a noisy, aggressive, stinking, scary big monster. Until a friend got a dog and began translating canine for me.
posted by Omnomnom at 12:49 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
For me, the problem with dogs was I had no idea what they were communicating. No matter whether the dog wanted to play or hug or bite, all I saw was a noisy, aggressive, stinking, scary big monster. Until a friend got a dog and began translating canine for me.
posted by Omnomnom at 12:49 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I don't think it's as big a deal as you say it is. You need to own it, be loud and proud about it. Being ashamed about it is the problem. I always say that my interest in flora and fauna goes as far as a Thai Beef Salad and no further.
posted by taff at 12:49 AM on October 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by taff at 12:49 AM on October 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: You need to own it, be loud and proud about it.
I am, but I ended up taking down the 'Screw whales, leave Japan alone' Facebook page after I realized that it would make it even harder for me to get dates than I already do. I sometimes still regret it.
No matter whether the dog wanted to play or hug or bite, all I saw was a noisy, aggressive, stinking, scary big monster.
That's my problem with dogs! And rugby players.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 12:51 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
I am, but I ended up taking down the 'Screw whales, leave Japan alone' Facebook page after I realized that it would make it even harder for me to get dates than I already do. I sometimes still regret it.
No matter whether the dog wanted to play or hug or bite, all I saw was a noisy, aggressive, stinking, scary big monster.
That's my problem with dogs! And rugby players.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 12:51 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
How do I mitigate or change my dislike and fear of animals? Or make it a non-issue?
I can only tell you about the non-issue part. If you disliked/feared animals but clearly would not be unkind to them, and would be rational, calm, and mature about the whole issue, then I would not find you to be creepy. If you disliked/feared animals and were also nasty to them, unkind, and melodramatic about the issue, that would come off badly to me.
Like if you took an attitude of, "I wish you well, but you go your way and I go mine" towards animals, that would be okay. If I knew you would call animal services to help an injured animal in the street, even if you were afraid to help directly, that would be okay. Whereas an attitude of "disgusting fucks, I hate you all" would creep me out and put me off. An attitude of being happy to see an injured animal in the street would really be creepy.
Examples of being rational/calm/mature about the issue:
"Sorry, friend, but I don't allow animals in my apartment. I really don't like the hair, and I didn't grow up with animals so I don't really know how to be with them, so I'm not very comfortable."
posted by cairdeas at 12:54 AM on October 24, 2011 [16 favorites]
I can only tell you about the non-issue part. If you disliked/feared animals but clearly would not be unkind to them, and would be rational, calm, and mature about the whole issue, then I would not find you to be creepy. If you disliked/feared animals and were also nasty to them, unkind, and melodramatic about the issue, that would come off badly to me.
Like if you took an attitude of, "I wish you well, but you go your way and I go mine" towards animals, that would be okay. If I knew you would call animal services to help an injured animal in the street, even if you were afraid to help directly, that would be okay. Whereas an attitude of "disgusting fucks, I hate you all" would creep me out and put me off. An attitude of being happy to see an injured animal in the street would really be creepy.
Examples of being rational/calm/mature about the issue:
"Sorry, friend, but I don't allow animals in my apartment. I really don't like the hair, and I didn't grow up with animals so I don't really know how to be with them, so I'm not very comfortable."
posted by cairdeas at 12:54 AM on October 24, 2011 [16 favorites]
Yes, being happy or indifferent to see animals suffering would really be the crux for me, so yeah, I probably wouldn't find the "screw whales" thing to be the most attractive.
posted by cairdeas at 12:56 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by cairdeas at 12:56 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Why do you want to pretend to be someone you're not in order to get dates? That's the definition of a creep, not your dislike of animals.
Wouldn't you rather meet someone who is ok with who you are, or actually likes you for who you are?
posted by danny the boy at 1:04 AM on October 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
Wouldn't you rather meet someone who is ok with who you are, or actually likes you for who you are?
posted by danny the boy at 1:04 AM on October 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Why do you want to pretend to be someone you're not in order to get dates? That's the definition of a creep, not your dislike of animals.
Wouldn't you rather meet someone who is ok with who you are, or actually likes you for who you are?
Because most of the other things mentioned in that link ARE creepy behaviors, and working to overcome my clinginess, insecurity, etc is a personal project. I figure I might as well add this to the list.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 1:07 AM on October 24, 2011
Wouldn't you rather meet someone who is ok with who you are, or actually likes you for who you are?
Because most of the other things mentioned in that link ARE creepy behaviors, and working to overcome my clinginess, insecurity, etc is a personal project. I figure I might as well add this to the list.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 1:07 AM on October 24, 2011
I pretty much hate animals, which is probably something I shouldn't say. They're not human beings, for one, and while I've made strides in understanding human being animals are, yes, alien to me.
Yeah, this intolerance to anything "not like you" is unattractive. If you were a good looking hollywood up-and-comer then your dating experiences could make for a funny movie but in real life it's just kinda ugly.
I'd not mention animals at all in your dating profile. Then if you end up on a date with an animal loving chicky babe be honest - say that you don't relate with animals because you haven't been around then enough. And then do your darned best to find compassion for the other sentient creatures we share this planet with.
posted by the fish at 1:09 AM on October 24, 2011 [24 favorites]
Yeah, this intolerance to anything "not like you" is unattractive. If you were a good looking hollywood up-and-comer then your dating experiences could make for a funny movie but in real life it's just kinda ugly.
I'd not mention animals at all in your dating profile. Then if you end up on a date with an animal loving chicky babe be honest - say that you don't relate with animals because you haven't been around then enough. And then do your darned best to find compassion for the other sentient creatures we share this planet with.
posted by the fish at 1:09 AM on October 24, 2011 [24 favorites]
Oh Lovecraft! That's appalling you cheeky bloody ratbag. You were being provocative with that Facebook page and you well know it. Not liking them and not wanting their company and actively promoting the extinction of such a beloved and benign creature as a whale are quite different positions.
Keep that much to yourself till folk discover your brave sense of humour is largely hot air and a smidge of lovable idiocy. Then you can shock the pants off the bastards.
But yeah, advocating whale hunting....about as funny as...cancer?
posted by taff at 1:10 AM on October 24, 2011 [22 favorites]
Keep that much to yourself till folk discover your brave sense of humour is largely hot air and a smidge of lovable idiocy. Then you can shock the pants off the bastards.
But yeah, advocating whale hunting....about as funny as...cancer?
posted by taff at 1:10 AM on October 24, 2011 [22 favorites]
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. The creep detectors don't seem to be able to tell the difference between things that are moral issues and things that are just customs, and are writing off anyone who's even slightly odd. Which is no guarantee of anything.
posted by AlsoMike at 1:12 AM on October 24, 2011
posted by AlsoMike at 1:12 AM on October 24, 2011
Disliking specific animals isn't creepy at all, imo--if you like, say, cats, but don't get dogs at all, that's one thing. Disliking animals across the board is a red flag for many people because, I think, it's often an indicator that the person in question is incapable of feeling empathy for creatures (or people) they feel are lesser beings/less important than they are.* I suspect that some people also stumble because animal cruelty is part of the Macdonald triad. While hating animals and being cruel to them are emphatically not the same thing, I think that it it's very easy for animal lovers to make the jump--however unfairly--from one to the other.
You've said that you kinda like cats, so why not start there? You probably know someone with a cat--next time you're at their place, make a point of spending a few minutes petting the cat. Maybe ask if you can give the cat a treat. Do this every time you're somewhere with a cat...and try to make a point of going places with cats. Based on your comments above, I suspect that part of your problem is that you're not used to animals, so being around them makes you uncomfortable, which you translate not as discomfort with an unfamiliar situation in which you're not sure how to act, but as discomfort with the animal itself. Further exposure to animals could alleviate this.
*Please note that I'm not saying that you do this--I'm saying that this is one of the reasons it's a red flag for people, and it's the primary reason it's a red flag for me.
posted by MeghanC at 1:12 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
You've said that you kinda like cats, so why not start there? You probably know someone with a cat--next time you're at their place, make a point of spending a few minutes petting the cat. Maybe ask if you can give the cat a treat. Do this every time you're somewhere with a cat...and try to make a point of going places with cats. Based on your comments above, I suspect that part of your problem is that you're not used to animals, so being around them makes you uncomfortable, which you translate not as discomfort with an unfamiliar situation in which you're not sure how to act, but as discomfort with the animal itself. Further exposure to animals could alleviate this.
*Please note that I'm not saying that you do this--I'm saying that this is one of the reasons it's a red flag for people, and it's the primary reason it's a red flag for me.
posted by MeghanC at 1:12 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Mod note: OP, this is not the place for a rambling, chatty conversation about everything on your mind; use the helpful answers, ignore the rest, and don't thread-sit.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:27 AM on October 24, 2011 [8 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 1:27 AM on October 24, 2011 [8 favorites]
I think learning to love other animals will not only improve your love life (I'd never date someone like you and I can't imagine many of my female friends dating you), but also improve your life in general. It's pretty common to find such a strong dislike of animals creepy, even amongst those we are considering for friendship. Getting rid of it will only help you.
First of all, remember that humans are animals. I get from your post that you think that humans are separate from animals and that non-human animals are lesser beings and therefore, worthy of scorn. Why is this? Is it because of genetic relatedness? If genetic relatedness is all that it takes, then why don't you prefer those of the same ethnic background as you? Is it because of intelligence? Do you think of mentally handicapped people as worthy of scorn or destruction the same way you view whales? Do you view them as useless? You prefer that the Japanese slaughter whales, which suggests you don't understand the value they have to society. Why is it that you think it is okay for a group of one individuals to go around slaughtering another group of individuals, particularly a group as inoffensive and pacifist as whales? Do you think that anyone/being who doesn't have a role you understand is worthy of destruction? Is it because that if something/someone doesn't have an immediate value/worth to you, you don't regard it/them as having any value/worth at all?
Figure out why you view non-human animals with such scorn and attack it at its core. Studies and history have shown that dislike of animals is often strongly correlated with violence against humans, especially humans regarded as 'others'. All over the world, when one ethnic group wants to attack another, they usually classify them as non-human. If you don't view non-humans with scorn, this way of thinking doesn't lead to prejudice.
I'd strongly suggest taking some courses in Evolutionary Anthropology, Ecology, or Primatology in particular and learning more about our place in the world as well as how important other species are to our survival and well-being. It's amazing how much my Primatology background has helped me understand humans because we are, no matter how much we try to deny it, members of that Order. I see the exact same behavior in the capuchins I know very well that I do in the people I know very well. I gather from your post that you have trouble connecting with and understanding people. Perhaps it's just my background, but I strongly suspect that if you learn to understand and connect with non-human animals, you'll do much better at connecting with human animals.
posted by avagoyle at 2:00 AM on October 24, 2011 [8 favorites]
First of all, remember that humans are animals. I get from your post that you think that humans are separate from animals and that non-human animals are lesser beings and therefore, worthy of scorn. Why is this? Is it because of genetic relatedness? If genetic relatedness is all that it takes, then why don't you prefer those of the same ethnic background as you? Is it because of intelligence? Do you think of mentally handicapped people as worthy of scorn or destruction the same way you view whales? Do you view them as useless? You prefer that the Japanese slaughter whales, which suggests you don't understand the value they have to society. Why is it that you think it is okay for a group of one individuals to go around slaughtering another group of individuals, particularly a group as inoffensive and pacifist as whales? Do you think that anyone/being who doesn't have a role you understand is worthy of destruction? Is it because that if something/someone doesn't have an immediate value/worth to you, you don't regard it/them as having any value/worth at all?
Figure out why you view non-human animals with such scorn and attack it at its core. Studies and history have shown that dislike of animals is often strongly correlated with violence against humans, especially humans regarded as 'others'. All over the world, when one ethnic group wants to attack another, they usually classify them as non-human. If you don't view non-humans with scorn, this way of thinking doesn't lead to prejudice.
I'd strongly suggest taking some courses in Evolutionary Anthropology, Ecology, or Primatology in particular and learning more about our place in the world as well as how important other species are to our survival and well-being. It's amazing how much my Primatology background has helped me understand humans because we are, no matter how much we try to deny it, members of that Order. I see the exact same behavior in the capuchins I know very well that I do in the people I know very well. I gather from your post that you have trouble connecting with and understanding people. Perhaps it's just my background, but I strongly suspect that if you learn to understand and connect with non-human animals, you'll do much better at connecting with human animals.
posted by avagoyle at 2:00 AM on October 24, 2011 [8 favorites]
Not liking animals is fine, being an arsehole about it and displaying a lack of empathy towards those who do like them, is not. The whales page, that's an arsehole thing. There are better ways of expressing that opinion.
Think of it this way: If you were in a situation with someone, and they had an animal you didn't like and were scared of, and you said so, and they kept throwing it at your face, and being like, "Why don't you like animals LiB? You are crazy and silly! Your feelings about this are stupid! See the rattlesnake! Ooo!" Don't do that, with disliking animals.
Now, I admit, I am extrapolating from your behaviour on mefi, but I must say, generally your comments about animals here are wildly inflammatory, almost-always totally uninformed, generally disrespectful, and often lacking in empathy, both for animals, and people that like them. Don't do that, and appreciate that your opinions/feelings are just that, and also in a small minority and that others may bridle when you express them as self-evident truths.
posted by smoke at 2:22 AM on October 24, 2011 [11 favorites]
Think of it this way: If you were in a situation with someone, and they had an animal you didn't like and were scared of, and you said so, and they kept throwing it at your face, and being like, "Why don't you like animals LiB? You are crazy and silly! Your feelings about this are stupid! See the rattlesnake! Ooo!" Don't do that, with disliking animals.
Now, I admit, I am extrapolating from your behaviour on mefi, but I must say, generally your comments about animals here are wildly inflammatory, almost-always totally uninformed, generally disrespectful, and often lacking in empathy, both for animals, and people that like them. Don't do that, and appreciate that your opinions/feelings are just that, and also in a small minority and that others may bridle when you express them as self-evident truths.
posted by smoke at 2:22 AM on October 24, 2011 [11 favorites]
My advice would be to take a strenuous weeklong backpacking trip, like the kind where you hike into the backcountry with a 30 lb pack, walk 30 miles, and camp out along the way. You'll definitely learn some humility in the face of nature, that's for sure. Nothing made me appreciate my weakness and lack of absolute advantage over other beings like learning firsthand how ill-adapted humans truly are for living in the wild on planet Earth. While it may not convince you to "like" nature and animals, it might at least convince you to have some basic respect for them.
posted by dialetheia at 2:44 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by dialetheia at 2:44 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
even my friends' cats will scratch and attack me
Is it possible that either you're generalising from a very small sample ("the first cat I met attacked me, the second cat hissed at me once, every cat since has given me haughty looks and ignored me, therefore cats as a species just loathe me!") or you're interacting with cats in such a way as to keep getting hostile reactions (because you're not used to being around cats, you might be acting in a way you think is friendly but cats perceive as hostile, or not picking up on cat 'back off' signals)? Because if either of those are the case - and I suspect one is, since cats aren't reporting back to Feline Central Command for instructions every time they meet someone new - that's fixable in a way that could significantly improve your experience of being around cats.
They're not human beings, for one, and while I've made strides in understanding human being animals are, yes, alien to me.
Maybe the way to go with this isn't to convince yourself animals aren't non-human, but to find things that interest you about the non-human ways they work. I mean, if they actually were a species of extraterrestrial aliens from Alpha Centauri, you wouldn't be all "silicon-based life? pfft, that sucks, humans use carbon", right? Or if you were beamed back in time to see Çatalhöyük or Stonehenge mid-construction or Qin-dynasty China or the Hittite empire, you probably wouldn't be saying "well, it's not 21st-century Australia and nobody has the Internet here, so whatEVer" - you'd be fascinated by how those societies worked.
Think of it the same way with animals. Dogs don't speak the same language you do, but you can learn the body-language communications they do use as an interesting thing, rather than as a strange-therefore-inferior thing. And how different must the world seem to a dog, relying on scent so much more than we do? Or to a bee, seeing colours we can't? Horses are herd-living prey animals whose main line of defence is running away, and as a result have complex herd dynamics and behaviours which reflect that. Symbiotic relationships are amazing; coral reefs even have cleaning stations, where fish line up to be cleaned by other species. They don't have to be human to be interesting.
It seems from what you've said, though, that your intense dislike of animals is more of a chosen philosophical position for you, and something you see as a necessary consequence of your more favourable views about humans. Which is tricky, because what you're asking in that case is less "how can I get over my hatred of animals?" and more "my hatred of animals is an important point of principle for me, but I simultaneously don't want to be an animal-hater because it'll put off potential dates, what do I do?". I suggest finding some pet-owning friends whose general view of humanity is one you respect, and asking them what they get out of owning pets - not to convert yourself to pet-ownership, but to see some real examples of how it's possible to see animals as non-human without actively despising them for it.
posted by Catseye at 3:00 AM on October 24, 2011 [8 favorites]
Is it possible that either you're generalising from a very small sample ("the first cat I met attacked me, the second cat hissed at me once, every cat since has given me haughty looks and ignored me, therefore cats as a species just loathe me!") or you're interacting with cats in such a way as to keep getting hostile reactions (because you're not used to being around cats, you might be acting in a way you think is friendly but cats perceive as hostile, or not picking up on cat 'back off' signals)? Because if either of those are the case - and I suspect one is, since cats aren't reporting back to Feline Central Command for instructions every time they meet someone new - that's fixable in a way that could significantly improve your experience of being around cats.
They're not human beings, for one, and while I've made strides in understanding human being animals are, yes, alien to me.
Maybe the way to go with this isn't to convince yourself animals aren't non-human, but to find things that interest you about the non-human ways they work. I mean, if they actually were a species of extraterrestrial aliens from Alpha Centauri, you wouldn't be all "silicon-based life? pfft, that sucks, humans use carbon", right? Or if you were beamed back in time to see Çatalhöyük or Stonehenge mid-construction or Qin-dynasty China or the Hittite empire, you probably wouldn't be saying "well, it's not 21st-century Australia and nobody has the Internet here, so whatEVer" - you'd be fascinated by how those societies worked.
Think of it the same way with animals. Dogs don't speak the same language you do, but you can learn the body-language communications they do use as an interesting thing, rather than as a strange-therefore-inferior thing. And how different must the world seem to a dog, relying on scent so much more than we do? Or to a bee, seeing colours we can't? Horses are herd-living prey animals whose main line of defence is running away, and as a result have complex herd dynamics and behaviours which reflect that. Symbiotic relationships are amazing; coral reefs even have cleaning stations, where fish line up to be cleaned by other species. They don't have to be human to be interesting.
It seems from what you've said, though, that your intense dislike of animals is more of a chosen philosophical position for you, and something you see as a necessary consequence of your more favourable views about humans. Which is tricky, because what you're asking in that case is less "how can I get over my hatred of animals?" and more "my hatred of animals is an important point of principle for me, but I simultaneously don't want to be an animal-hater because it'll put off potential dates, what do I do?". I suggest finding some pet-owning friends whose general view of humanity is one you respect, and asking them what they get out of owning pets - not to convert yourself to pet-ownership, but to see some real examples of how it's possible to see animals as non-human without actively despising them for it.
posted by Catseye at 3:00 AM on October 24, 2011 [8 favorites]
You probably know someone with a cat--next time you're at their place, make a point of spending a few minutes petting the cat. Maybe ask if you can give the cat a treat.
Building on what MeghanC said - if you happen to have a friend with a fluffy/long haired cat, see if you can befriend the cat to the extent that it will let you brush it.* Cats are pretty self-sufficient and I found this was the only way I could generate a connection with them, but to my surprise I found it immensely satisfying. There will be hair shed, it's true, but it's usually on the brush so if you find patting furred animals offputting the brush may be better.
*Bear in mind, I'm not an animal person at all, I only have the experience of the 2 cats my Mum had after I moved out, so it may be that some cats are really weird about letting relative strangers brush them...but my Mum's cats - if you broke into the house wearing a balaclava and started brushing them they would lie down and purr loudly at you, I'm sure of it.
posted by Cheese Monster at 3:53 AM on October 24, 2011
Building on what MeghanC said - if you happen to have a friend with a fluffy/long haired cat, see if you can befriend the cat to the extent that it will let you brush it.* Cats are pretty self-sufficient and I found this was the only way I could generate a connection with them, but to my surprise I found it immensely satisfying. There will be hair shed, it's true, but it's usually on the brush so if you find patting furred animals offputting the brush may be better.
*Bear in mind, I'm not an animal person at all, I only have the experience of the 2 cats my Mum had after I moved out, so it may be that some cats are really weird about letting relative strangers brush them...but my Mum's cats - if you broke into the house wearing a balaclava and started brushing them they would lie down and purr loudly at you, I'm sure of it.
posted by Cheese Monster at 3:53 AM on October 24, 2011
Nthing what others have said here about the way you express your dislike of animals being the issue, not the dislike itself.
Creepiness shows itself in patterns of behaviour, not in single behaviours. It's an expression of an underlying attitude of disrespect for other people's subjectivity. As long as the attitude is still there, you could do everything correctly according to that other list and still project creepiness.
A guy once made a cryptic remark to me during an IM conversation. I didn't know what to make of it so I ignored it. Meanwhile, he was showing himself to be quite a cat lover and always had a funny picture or a story to tell about what a crazy thing his gf's cat had done the other day, etc.
I discovered much later that the cryptic remark had been an allusion to the recreational torture of an animal as the conclusion to a night out. The pro-cat remarks had been part of his pattern of trying to groom me to become his bit on the side.
Can you spot the creepy in this anecdote? I'll break it down for you:
A guy once made a cryptic remark to me during an IM conversation. Duping delight. He was enjoying alluding to an act of cruelty, right before my eyes, that he knew about and would (so he thought) never suspect him of. He was getting off on convincing me he was somebody he wasn't.
Meanwhile, he was showing himself to be quite a cat lover and always had a funny picture or a story to tell about what a crazy thing his gf's cat had done the other day, etc. Not creepy in itself. Creepy as part of the Seducer's Mirror strategy (pretending to be a fellow cat person), which he was using not only on me, but on his gf, whom he'd been living with for a year. The fact that he may actually have liked this cat only makes it creepier.
his gf's cat He had a gf, so couldn't possibly have been planning to hit on me at any point in the future. Mentioning the cat was a way of mentioning her, indirectly, so I wouldn't get ideas, at least not until he decided it was time.
I discovered much later that the cryptic remark had been an allusion to the recreational torture of an animal as the conclusion to a night out. Left as exercise.
The pro-cat remarks had been part of his pattern of trying to groom me to become his bit on the side. Left as exercise; also, if the only thing he'd been doing to try to groom me had been making a bunch of pro-cat remarks. Like everything else, it was only part of a larger pattern.
So there you have a tale of exceptional creepiness, even though it's also a tale of someone who might actually have liked at least one particular animal.
I'm not saying you are like this guy, Lovecraft. What I am saying is that if the basic problem is that you harbour hostility towards your fellow creatures, animal or human - which it sounds like you do - then I'd prioritize working through that rather than trying to disguise it.
posted by tel3path at 4:04 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Creepiness shows itself in patterns of behaviour, not in single behaviours. It's an expression of an underlying attitude of disrespect for other people's subjectivity. As long as the attitude is still there, you could do everything correctly according to that other list and still project creepiness.
A guy once made a cryptic remark to me during an IM conversation. I didn't know what to make of it so I ignored it. Meanwhile, he was showing himself to be quite a cat lover and always had a funny picture or a story to tell about what a crazy thing his gf's cat had done the other day, etc.
I discovered much later that the cryptic remark had been an allusion to the recreational torture of an animal as the conclusion to a night out. The pro-cat remarks had been part of his pattern of trying to groom me to become his bit on the side.
Can you spot the creepy in this anecdote? I'll break it down for you:
A guy once made a cryptic remark to me during an IM conversation. Duping delight. He was enjoying alluding to an act of cruelty, right before my eyes, that he knew about and would (so he thought) never suspect him of. He was getting off on convincing me he was somebody he wasn't.
Meanwhile, he was showing himself to be quite a cat lover and always had a funny picture or a story to tell about what a crazy thing his gf's cat had done the other day, etc. Not creepy in itself. Creepy as part of the Seducer's Mirror strategy (pretending to be a fellow cat person), which he was using not only on me, but on his gf, whom he'd been living with for a year. The fact that he may actually have liked this cat only makes it creepier.
his gf's cat He had a gf, so couldn't possibly have been planning to hit on me at any point in the future. Mentioning the cat was a way of mentioning her, indirectly, so I wouldn't get ideas, at least not until he decided it was time.
I discovered much later that the cryptic remark had been an allusion to the recreational torture of an animal as the conclusion to a night out. Left as exercise.
The pro-cat remarks had been part of his pattern of trying to groom me to become his bit on the side. Left as exercise; also, if the only thing he'd been doing to try to groom me had been making a bunch of pro-cat remarks. Like everything else, it was only part of a larger pattern.
So there you have a tale of exceptional creepiness, even though it's also a tale of someone who might actually have liked at least one particular animal.
I'm not saying you are like this guy, Lovecraft. What I am saying is that if the basic problem is that you harbour hostility towards your fellow creatures, animal or human - which it sounds like you do - then I'd prioritize working through that rather than trying to disguise it.
posted by tel3path at 4:04 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
I don't like animals, but I manage to not only have friends, but also a husband and a small child, none of whom are scared or (presumably) creeped out by me. It's all in context. I don't like animals because I have sensory issues about touching them, birds scare me, a lot of them are too loud and trigger auditory freak outs, and I just don't get the devotion. However, I grew up in an animal loving family and they still go well overboard with it. I simply lay out my boundaries (no dogs jumping on me, no I won't make my kid touch them, if they bite her they are being put down) and leave it there. I don't make Facebook pages devoted to annoying them, I don't act like they're my enemy, I don't make a big deal out of it.
Do people still get upset about it? Yeah, they do. But I just roll with it. Provocation is a dullard's game.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:00 AM on October 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
Do people still get upset about it? Yeah, they do. But I just roll with it. Provocation is a dullard's game.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:00 AM on October 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
I had a roommate who was visibly discomfited by my affectionate, pouncy cats. Like, they'd pounce on his lap and he'd jump like a teen girl at a slasher movie. After a few months, his discomfort gradually went away. He even remarked that, until he lived with my cats, he was always uncomfortable around cats, but that after, he felt he could get along fine with any in the future. So I guess it could be a matter of time and immersion; ymmv.
As to the other topic, I love animals, but I've also been known to make vicious jokes about them not unlike the one mentioned above. Some people respond very badly to this, and it's genuine, it's not them being PC or anything; those people will not assume you were just kidding around and being playfully weird and you're really OK with animals--they'll assume the worst. I've since learned to be careful about whom I make these jokes in the proximity of.
posted by AugieAugustus at 5:22 AM on October 24, 2011
As to the other topic, I love animals, but I've also been known to make vicious jokes about them not unlike the one mentioned above. Some people respond very badly to this, and it's genuine, it's not them being PC or anything; those people will not assume you were just kidding around and being playfully weird and you're really OK with animals--they'll assume the worst. I've since learned to be careful about whom I make these jokes in the proximity of.
posted by AugieAugustus at 5:22 AM on October 24, 2011
Best answer: I do think you're confusing not liking animals and not being a jerk about not liking animals. The FB page was jerky behavior, quietly deciding (and keeping to yourself) that you don't give a shit about whales is not.
There is a difference between privately held opinion and behavior. Sharing an opinion you know to be generally unpopular is, many times, off-putting. You don't need to learn to care for animals, you just need to stop thinking that's something that everyone needs to know about you.
posted by OmieWise at 5:30 AM on October 24, 2011 [6 favorites]
There is a difference between privately held opinion and behavior. Sharing an opinion you know to be generally unpopular is, many times, off-putting. You don't need to learn to care for animals, you just need to stop thinking that's something that everyone needs to know about you.
posted by OmieWise at 5:30 AM on October 24, 2011 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I'm kind of agreeing with cairdeas. I get along with dogs and cats fine and grew up with both. But I wouldn't see not liking animals as a sign of creepiness.
In conversation, there's a big difference between saying, 'I'm not comfortable around animals because I'm not used to being around them and don't know how to read them' (or as Omnomnom put it, "all I saw was a noisy, aggressive, stinking, scary big monster") vs. 'I hate animals, and people who like animals are stupid.' The first one even gets you extra bonus points for being honest, the second puts you into asshole territory.
You responded to Omnmnom's comment, "That's my problem with dogs! And rugby players." So you can be sort of understanding about why some people see dogs differently from you, but, oh, wait a minute, now you hate rugby players too, and they're just like animals ...
I think you're barking up the wrong tree. It's not true that 'women like animals' and if you learn to appreciate or at least tolerate dogs and cats better, you'll have better luck in dating. A lot of women do have pets, but not all of them do, and so do a lot of guys. Obviously it can cause friction if somebody you're seeing has pets and you don't get along with them, but I don't think it's that big of deal, and obviously it can be accommodated (see first comment).
The statement you objected to in the thread you referenced said "Look out for people who 'hate' and 'feel contempt for' ANY normal companion and domestic animals ..." and quoted “Ha ha your bunny is meat” as something a creep might say. You can't see a difference between not being into animals as pets and taunting somebody else because they have pets? If you can't see a difference, I think your problems have more to with your attitudes towards people than towards animals.
You also wrote, responding to a different comment:
There are are also a lot of kind, intelligent and knowledgeable people on MetaFilter. I like those people and I'm interested in what they have to say. That's why I stay here. (And, yes, I'd go out with people like that in real life because I like them.)
This has nothing to do with 'optimism' and everything to do with not wanting to hang around with people who hate you. You shouldn't be surprised if people you hate and despise don't want to hang around with you, and you shouldn't be surprised if they pick up on your contempt. (People are fairly good at that.)
I'm sorry if that didn't seem very kind, but if you live in Australia, and you hate and have contempt for all Australians (an opinion you've expressed vociferously over and over again on MetaFilter), including the Australian women you're trying to date, you're probably going to run into problems, because who in their right mind wants to be with somebody who despises them?
I don't think there are any magic tricks you can do to fix this, including trying to get used to puppies. I suspect your basic problem is your attitude towards humans, not dogs and cats.
(Once again, I apologize for being harsh, but I think you're better off recognizing this, if this is the case.)
posted by nangar at 5:30 AM on October 24, 2011 [13 favorites]
In conversation, there's a big difference between saying, 'I'm not comfortable around animals because I'm not used to being around them and don't know how to read them' (or as Omnomnom put it, "all I saw was a noisy, aggressive, stinking, scary big monster") vs. 'I hate animals, and people who like animals are stupid.' The first one even gets you extra bonus points for being honest, the second puts you into asshole territory.
You responded to Omnmnom's comment, "That's my problem with dogs! And rugby players." So you can be sort of understanding about why some people see dogs differently from you, but, oh, wait a minute, now you hate rugby players too, and they're just like animals ...
I think you're barking up the wrong tree. It's not true that 'women like animals' and if you learn to appreciate or at least tolerate dogs and cats better, you'll have better luck in dating. A lot of women do have pets, but not all of them do, and so do a lot of guys. Obviously it can cause friction if somebody you're seeing has pets and you don't get along with them, but I don't think it's that big of deal, and obviously it can be accommodated (see first comment).
The statement you objected to in the thread you referenced said "Look out for people who 'hate' and 'feel contempt for' ANY normal companion and domestic animals ..." and quoted “Ha ha your bunny is meat” as something a creep might say. You can't see a difference between not being into animals as pets and taunting somebody else because they have pets? If you can't see a difference, I think your problems have more to with your attitudes towards people than towards animals.
You also wrote, responding to a different comment:
And, oh god, general negativity. Talks about people in their life negatively. Has lots of bad things to say.Big chunks of MetaFilter (especially the Blue) are dominated by by belligerent, bigoted assholes. I wouldn't go out with any of them, and I'd be reluctant to go to any meet-ups where I knew one of them was coming.
> That rules out most of Metafilter. Only optimists are non-creepy?
There are are also a lot of kind, intelligent and knowledgeable people on MetaFilter. I like those people and I'm interested in what they have to say. That's why I stay here. (And, yes, I'd go out with people like that in real life because I like them.)
This has nothing to do with 'optimism' and everything to do with not wanting to hang around with people who hate you. You shouldn't be surprised if people you hate and despise don't want to hang around with you, and you shouldn't be surprised if they pick up on your contempt. (People are fairly good at that.)
I'm sorry if that didn't seem very kind, but if you live in Australia, and you hate and have contempt for all Australians (an opinion you've expressed vociferously over and over again on MetaFilter), including the Australian women you're trying to date, you're probably going to run into problems, because who in their right mind wants to be with somebody who despises them?
I don't think there are any magic tricks you can do to fix this, including trying to get used to puppies. I suspect your basic problem is your attitude towards humans, not dogs and cats.
(Once again, I apologize for being harsh, but I think you're better off recognizing this, if this is the case.)
posted by nangar at 5:30 AM on October 24, 2011 [13 favorites]
Best answer: I agree with others that it's not the discomfort about being around animals that comes across poorly, it's the attitude that they're inferior that comes across unattractively. It's partly some of the same dynamic that makes listening to racists or misogynists creepy; being proud about "hating" stuff makes people look insecure at best, and ignorant, creepy, and/or exhausting to be around at worst. People who play up all the things they dislike sometimes seem to do so in service to coming across as a "character" -- i.e. to have a unique and striking personality -- but it tends to make people seem like a perpetual teenager in all the wrong ways. While I don't disagree that you should want to find someone that probably isn't into animals and you shouldn't hide that, I do think you're on the right track to reconsider the nuances here because as it stands right now, you're not going to attract people who simply aren't into animals, you're going to attract people that like to hold extreme negative opinions for shock value -- and while that may not bother you for issues where you hold the same opinion, consider that it's unlikely you will share all opinions on everything and it gets old very fast when someone is really loud about disagreeing with the stuff you like because deep down they feel they wouldn't have a personality otherwise. And if you feel you are that kind of person, then you're absolutely in the right for trying to change that behavior.
That is all very different from just not feeling the same connection other people feel for animals, or being uncomfortable around dogs or whatever. Those kinds of people aren't creepy or exhausting. When someone brings up dogs and someone goes off on a rant about how much they hate dogs, oh man is that tiresome and eyeroll-inducing. It makes them come across as unpleasant and desparate to differentiate themselves. It's not creepy so much because it involves animals, because I feel similarly when people do that with most subjects. It's just a touch worse because it's another living creature and it betrays an even more negative personality to be dismissive of living things than say, taste in bands. It tells me that someone will turn off their empathy or basic decency in service to trying to look cool, which is sometimes alarming but usually just kind of sad or exhausting.
So yeah, saying you "hate" animals or joking that whaling is okay is really exhausting for me to read. Do you really mean those things, or is it hyperbole? If it's hyperbole, that's much easier to fix: don't say you "hate" animals if you really just feel indifferent, don't joke about killing animals if you actually don't dislike them so much you want them dead. You are correct in thinking these things do not do you any favors in how you come across to most people. (Dark humor you don't actually mean in conversation among friends is one thing, but saying stuff publicly or to people you barely know really gives off a desperate vibe that you want to have an edgy personality and aren't self aware enough to pick your venues properly. People can be edgy without coming across like they have to prove it at all times.) If you don't like spending time with animals, that's cool.
If you actually hate animals and think it would be better if they were dead, that's pretty concerning. I would get therapy for deeper issues in that case, and absolutely do not get a pet or go straight to spending time with animals. Pets are not disposable things you should just get rid of under mundane circumstances when you know ahead of time you don't like them; you wouldn't appreciate being raised by someone who hates you (and if you were, then all the more reason to understand why this is not okay) and you won't like it anyway. If you simply don't like being around animals, the advice about appreciating other things about them and not focusing on their lack of being human is good. However, I don't think you really need to like animals in that case, just get rid of the hyperbole. Hyperbole is fine among those who enjoy it when not in service to mocking living creatures, so you don't need to completely remake your personality. You just need to extend your filter for things like racist jokes, sexist jokes, dead baby jokes, etc, to animal jokes -- i.e. you don't engage in those jokes whatsoever unless you are among close friends who know you're not serious and have twisted senses of humor. Hopefully you have the good sense to not make that other humor a loud, public example of your personality, right? Same thing. If you're actually serious and not 100% joking, though, there is a lot of work to be done.
posted by Nattie at 6:08 AM on October 24, 2011 [25 favorites]
That is all very different from just not feeling the same connection other people feel for animals, or being uncomfortable around dogs or whatever. Those kinds of people aren't creepy or exhausting. When someone brings up dogs and someone goes off on a rant about how much they hate dogs, oh man is that tiresome and eyeroll-inducing. It makes them come across as unpleasant and desparate to differentiate themselves. It's not creepy so much because it involves animals, because I feel similarly when people do that with most subjects. It's just a touch worse because it's another living creature and it betrays an even more negative personality to be dismissive of living things than say, taste in bands. It tells me that someone will turn off their empathy or basic decency in service to trying to look cool, which is sometimes alarming but usually just kind of sad or exhausting.
So yeah, saying you "hate" animals or joking that whaling is okay is really exhausting for me to read. Do you really mean those things, or is it hyperbole? If it's hyperbole, that's much easier to fix: don't say you "hate" animals if you really just feel indifferent, don't joke about killing animals if you actually don't dislike them so much you want them dead. You are correct in thinking these things do not do you any favors in how you come across to most people. (Dark humor you don't actually mean in conversation among friends is one thing, but saying stuff publicly or to people you barely know really gives off a desperate vibe that you want to have an edgy personality and aren't self aware enough to pick your venues properly. People can be edgy without coming across like they have to prove it at all times.) If you don't like spending time with animals, that's cool.
If you actually hate animals and think it would be better if they were dead, that's pretty concerning. I would get therapy for deeper issues in that case, and absolutely do not get a pet or go straight to spending time with animals. Pets are not disposable things you should just get rid of under mundane circumstances when you know ahead of time you don't like them; you wouldn't appreciate being raised by someone who hates you (and if you were, then all the more reason to understand why this is not okay) and you won't like it anyway. If you simply don't like being around animals, the advice about appreciating other things about them and not focusing on their lack of being human is good. However, I don't think you really need to like animals in that case, just get rid of the hyperbole. Hyperbole is fine among those who enjoy it when not in service to mocking living creatures, so you don't need to completely remake your personality. You just need to extend your filter for things like racist jokes, sexist jokes, dead baby jokes, etc, to animal jokes -- i.e. you don't engage in those jokes whatsoever unless you are among close friends who know you're not serious and have twisted senses of humor. Hopefully you have the good sense to not make that other humor a loud, public example of your personality, right? Same thing. If you're actually serious and not 100% joking, though, there is a lot of work to be done.
posted by Nattie at 6:08 AM on October 24, 2011 [25 favorites]
Filter. That's how this becomes a non-issue -- you don't make a big deal of broadcasting the fact that you're uncomfortable with and don't care about animals. Don't mention it on your dating profile, don't bring it up, don't make facebook pages about how you want them all to be killed. Of all the things that matter in dating, pets and/or feelings about animals are way down the list.
posted by J. Wilson at 6:09 AM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by J. Wilson at 6:09 AM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
I think the question I have reading your animal related comments is whether you just dislike animals and do not want to be around them or dislike animals and do not feel empathy when they are harmed.
If you just don't like animals, whatever, just don't try to date people who are into animals. If you can see images of animals suffering and not feel empathy toward them, that's a much bigger deal. If you lack empathy, that's what you have to fix. I am the crazy cat lady, and I have friends who do not like animals. That's cool, we just don't hang out at my place. I could not be friends with, let alone be romantically involved with, someone who lacked empathy.
Also, I dislike many things, but I'm not universally known for disliking most of those things. It seems that you have the reputation of That Guy Who Hates Animals. Perhaps you should stop cultivating that reputation, even if it's mostly accurate.
posted by crankylex at 6:18 AM on October 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
If you just don't like animals, whatever, just don't try to date people who are into animals. If you can see images of animals suffering and not feel empathy toward them, that's a much bigger deal. If you lack empathy, that's what you have to fix. I am the crazy cat lady, and I have friends who do not like animals. That's cool, we just don't hang out at my place. I could not be friends with, let alone be romantically involved with, someone who lacked empathy.
Also, I dislike many things, but I'm not universally known for disliking most of those things. It seems that you have the reputation of That Guy Who Hates Animals. Perhaps you should stop cultivating that reputation, even if it's mostly accurate.
posted by crankylex at 6:18 AM on October 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
Pity you don't live closer. I would love to introduce you to Mr. J, my deadbeat roommate that lays around all day and can't even fix his own meals. I have yet to meet anyone he can't get along with, and that includes other cats and dogs.
And, nthing the brushing. That's our special hangout time.
posted by Samizdata at 6:38 AM on October 24, 2011
And, nthing the brushing. That's our special hangout time.
posted by Samizdata at 6:38 AM on October 24, 2011
Would you want to date someone with a dog? Dog hair, slobber, pawprints on your khakis, going on walks with the dog, going to the dog park, cutting an evening short because she has to go home and let the dog out, weekends away limited by dog care a smelly critter who wants to lick you, sit on you, and maybe even climb into bed. Some dogs cause allergies, too. It's not too bad with a properly trained dog, but what about the legions of dog-owners whose dogs are poorly trained?
If you have any friends with well-trained dogs, ask if you can go on walks, dog park visits, etc., to see if you can get over your uneasiness. But if you really don't like dogs, don't date people with dogs.
Cats often cause allergies, some cats more than others, but they are often less forward, and easier to maintain a neutral relationship with. Though some cat and dog owners have elderly cats with continence issues, etc., which isn't fun, and some people are completely squicked out by litterboxes, esp. the ones not well-maintained. But if you dislike being around them, again, don't date cat-owners.
Your local animal shelter would let you volunteer. You can walk dogs, pet cats, and learn more about animals, as well as helping out.
posted by theora55 at 6:56 AM on October 24, 2011
If you have any friends with well-trained dogs, ask if you can go on walks, dog park visits, etc., to see if you can get over your uneasiness. But if you really don't like dogs, don't date people with dogs.
Cats often cause allergies, some cats more than others, but they are often less forward, and easier to maintain a neutral relationship with. Though some cat and dog owners have elderly cats with continence issues, etc., which isn't fun, and some people are completely squicked out by litterboxes, esp. the ones not well-maintained. But if you dislike being around them, again, don't date cat-owners.
Your local animal shelter would let you volunteer. You can walk dogs, pet cats, and learn more about animals, as well as helping out.
posted by theora55 at 6:56 AM on October 24, 2011
Best answer: Part of wanting a partner who likes animals is that they show the ability to be kind to something 'weaker' than they are. So, maybe you don't need to work on 'liking' dogs, you need to work on showing compassion and empathy in general, and then not being a 'dog person' will matter less.
(As for me, well, I enjoy the unconditional love the kitties show me. I don't think one of them has ever been mad at me for more than 5 minutes. That's pretty nice.)
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 7:09 AM on October 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
(As for me, well, I enjoy the unconditional love the kitties show me. I don't think one of them has ever been mad at me for more than 5 minutes. That's pretty nice.)
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 7:09 AM on October 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
The "hating" animals thing is weird to me because humans are animals. We are messy and bad at communicating what we mean. If these are among the qualities you hate in non-human animals, then if I'm a potential dating prospect, I'm going to be concerned about this.
Nthing the watching of documentaries and the hanging out with well-behaved pets of friends. And save the naked contempt for people who know you best.
posted by rtha at 7:19 AM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Nthing the watching of documentaries and the hanging out with well-behaved pets of friends. And save the naked contempt for people who know you best.
posted by rtha at 7:19 AM on October 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Dogs are very, very simple. 99% of dogs are friendly sweet things that want love and to be more or less blindly devoted to their owners. Most times dogs bark is because they are trying to protect thier family. Even Dobermen and German Shepards are not inherently vicious, just protective. Also, dogs come in a huge variety of shapes and sizes, from tiny to people sized. If you want a little less 'swim in the deep end' exposure to dogs, find the local Bark Park (or whatever the dog parks are called in your side of the world) and watch the dogs from behind the safety of the fence :) Also, many people consider constant barking, jumping up on people when they shouldn't, and face licking bad dog behavior. That makes it the owners fault, pretty much, just like children's bad behavior is their parents fault.
Cats... are a little more complicated. Some are just out and out insane (I am a cat lover) They too come in all shapes and sizes, with different personalities and hair shedding types. Some cats are content to mutually ignore you. Some cats are friendly and cuddly. (My gay cat would let you use him as a footrest, exercise weight, dress up doll... anything that didn't hurt him, basically.) Sadly, some cats do claw and bite when they shouldn't. However, most cats are good at communicating what they want. If the cat approaches you, you are likely good. Just pet them calmly (pet from the head to tail; otherwise their fur gets ruffled and they hate that) If the cat does not approach you, just leave it alone.
You can also go to pet stores to see cats and dogs in a non-threatening environment. If your pet store and or animal shelter has visiting days (most do) you can talk to someone enthusiastic and knowledgeable about said animals. They also show cute, friendly (safe) animals, cause that's their job.
Anyway, there are tons of people who don't want/don't have pets. Dont be a misanthropic jerk about it and you are probably ok.
posted by Jacen at 7:29 AM on October 24, 2011
Cats... are a little more complicated. Some are just out and out insane (I am a cat lover) They too come in all shapes and sizes, with different personalities and hair shedding types. Some cats are content to mutually ignore you. Some cats are friendly and cuddly. (My gay cat would let you use him as a footrest, exercise weight, dress up doll... anything that didn't hurt him, basically.) Sadly, some cats do claw and bite when they shouldn't. However, most cats are good at communicating what they want. If the cat approaches you, you are likely good. Just pet them calmly (pet from the head to tail; otherwise their fur gets ruffled and they hate that) If the cat does not approach you, just leave it alone.
You can also go to pet stores to see cats and dogs in a non-threatening environment. If your pet store and or animal shelter has visiting days (most do) you can talk to someone enthusiastic and knowledgeable about said animals. They also show cute, friendly (safe) animals, cause that's their job.
Anyway, there are tons of people who don't want/don't have pets. Dont be a misanthropic jerk about it and you are probably ok.
posted by Jacen at 7:29 AM on October 24, 2011
My dad has never been a huge fan of animals. He's not afraid of them, he just doesn't care for them.
However, he has also never been a jerk about it. He never acted like a jackass about his parents having multiple cats and dogs. He never held it against my brother and me when we had dogs, parakeets, rabbits, cats, mice, and so forth.
He has been married a few times -- twice to animal lovers. My late stepmother had been a competitive horseback rider! My mother took in any animal that looked at her with mopey eyes! I used to come home from school with cupfuls of millipedes! Never once did he bat an eye.
In short, he keeps his distaste quiet and to himself. Like a dignified person. Like a grown-up. He doesn't go around braying how he'd love for all the whales to die, for instance. He just doesn't interact much with the animals in his vicinity.
Actually, I've never even heard him SAY that he doesn't like animals. Nor have I ever heard him tell anyone, "Sorry, I'm uncomfortable with animals, forgive me if I don't pet your dog." He just doesn't pet the dog.
So, my dad has gotten to the age of 60 without pulling any of the bullshit you pull. He has had several longterm romantic relationships -- he got remarried in his 50s! Therefore: Yes, it's possible to not care for animals and still find people to date. But it's going to be a lot harder as long as you hold onto the childish attitude. Take a few dozen pages from my dad's book. If for no other reason than, you'll stop coming off as a complete tool. Maybe dates will follow after that.
posted by Coatlicue at 7:50 AM on October 24, 2011 [11 favorites]
However, he has also never been a jerk about it. He never acted like a jackass about his parents having multiple cats and dogs. He never held it against my brother and me when we had dogs, parakeets, rabbits, cats, mice, and so forth.
He has been married a few times -- twice to animal lovers. My late stepmother had been a competitive horseback rider! My mother took in any animal that looked at her with mopey eyes! I used to come home from school with cupfuls of millipedes! Never once did he bat an eye.
In short, he keeps his distaste quiet and to himself. Like a dignified person. Like a grown-up. He doesn't go around braying how he'd love for all the whales to die, for instance. He just doesn't interact much with the animals in his vicinity.
Actually, I've never even heard him SAY that he doesn't like animals. Nor have I ever heard him tell anyone, "Sorry, I'm uncomfortable with animals, forgive me if I don't pet your dog." He just doesn't pet the dog.
So, my dad has gotten to the age of 60 without pulling any of the bullshit you pull. He has had several longterm romantic relationships -- he got remarried in his 50s! Therefore: Yes, it's possible to not care for animals and still find people to date. But it's going to be a lot harder as long as you hold onto the childish attitude. Take a few dozen pages from my dad's book. If for no other reason than, you'll stop coming off as a complete tool. Maybe dates will follow after that.
posted by Coatlicue at 7:50 AM on October 24, 2011 [11 favorites]
Adding to the chorus here - not being an animal person is fine (although you shouldn't try to date an animal person), but actively hating animals and/or looking down on animal people is creepy. Your whale page on Facebook sounds really off-putting. What's creepy is someone who doesn't respect other living creatures (because it's a pretty short step from there to not respecting other people in many cases).
I don't think you need to learn to love dogs and cats (and most definitely DO NOT get a pet!), I think you need to learn how to respect other living creatures and how other people feel about them.
posted by biscotti at 7:53 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
I don't think you need to learn to love dogs and cats (and most definitely DO NOT get a pet!), I think you need to learn how to respect other living creatures and how other people feel about them.
posted by biscotti at 7:53 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Best answer: How do I mitigate or change my dislike and fear of animals? Or make it a non-issue?
One way to "make it a non-issue" could be to just claim you're allergic. It'd be a lie, but it wouldn't be the first time someone claimed to have an allergy because the truth was actually way more complicated and people still didn't get it after you explained it.
If you still really want to "neutralize" your ambivelance, though, that sounds like that may take a bit of self-reflection to get at the why. If it's just a matter of "I never really had pets so whatev", then maybe hanging around someone with a well-behaved animal would work.
But it sounds like you may have more of an active dislike, which sounds like it may also be a dislike of PEOPLE who share those qualities as well (insecurity and neediness, I believe you said), and perhaps focusing on your relation to those traits themselves is the way to go. Because then you could also improve your relations with people as well as animals, and that's never a bad thing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:59 AM on October 24, 2011
One way to "make it a non-issue" could be to just claim you're allergic. It'd be a lie, but it wouldn't be the first time someone claimed to have an allergy because the truth was actually way more complicated and people still didn't get it after you explained it.
If you still really want to "neutralize" your ambivelance, though, that sounds like that may take a bit of self-reflection to get at the why. If it's just a matter of "I never really had pets so whatev", then maybe hanging around someone with a well-behaved animal would work.
But it sounds like you may have more of an active dislike, which sounds like it may also be a dislike of PEOPLE who share those qualities as well (insecurity and neediness, I believe you said), and perhaps focusing on your relation to those traits themselves is the way to go. Because then you could also improve your relations with people as well as animals, and that's never a bad thing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:59 AM on October 24, 2011
There are two major reason to empathize with animals that I can think of. The first is that animals' needs and desires are raw, reduced, unfiltered versions of our own most basic needs: eating, sex, wanting to feel safe, fearing the unknown, finding somewhere warm to sleep. Drop someone off in the wilderness with nothing but the clothes on his back, and those are the things he'll think about. The second is that, in most circumstances, we have the upper hand against them. We can hunt them for sport. We can see them in trouble and choose to rescue them or leave them alone.
We humans want our primal fears and wants and needs to be recognized, even if they're irrational. And we are sometimes weak or scared or hurt, and we want to be around people who are willing to help us rather than shrug and say "not my problem." If someone expresses compassion for animals, it's a safe bet that they treat humans the same way. If not, it's hard to tell how far that person's circle of empathy extends. Does it include the elderly, the disabled, children, people of other nationalities or races, the opposite gender, people with different political or religious views, strangers, family, friends? Or does it extend no farther than the tips of his fingers?
You don't have to love animals or become a vegan activist. You can still have a personal no-pets rule. You can think cats are assholes and pigeons are disgusting Satan birds. You can even (occasionally, in appropriate company, exercising careful judgment) make jokes about shooting the neighbor's annoying dog, as long as it's clear you'd never in a million years actually do it. You just have to be okay with them, to not wish them harm, to understand why other people care for them and sometimes bond with them.
I suggest starting at a distance. Documentaries, as others suggested, are a great idea. Animal rescue blogs might be good, too. Once you're okay with that, get a little bit closer: volunteer at an animal shelter, take a trip to a wildlife preserve, hang out with friends who have dogs and cats. Get used to just being around them and seeing how your friends interact with them, then work your way up to befriending them.
posted by Metroid Baby at 8:09 AM on October 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
We humans want our primal fears and wants and needs to be recognized, even if they're irrational. And we are sometimes weak or scared or hurt, and we want to be around people who are willing to help us rather than shrug and say "not my problem." If someone expresses compassion for animals, it's a safe bet that they treat humans the same way. If not, it's hard to tell how far that person's circle of empathy extends. Does it include the elderly, the disabled, children, people of other nationalities or races, the opposite gender, people with different political or religious views, strangers, family, friends? Or does it extend no farther than the tips of his fingers?
You don't have to love animals or become a vegan activist. You can still have a personal no-pets rule. You can think cats are assholes and pigeons are disgusting Satan birds. You can even (occasionally, in appropriate company, exercising careful judgment) make jokes about shooting the neighbor's annoying dog, as long as it's clear you'd never in a million years actually do it. You just have to be okay with them, to not wish them harm, to understand why other people care for them and sometimes bond with them.
I suggest starting at a distance. Documentaries, as others suggested, are a great idea. Animal rescue blogs might be good, too. Once you're okay with that, get a little bit closer: volunteer at an animal shelter, take a trip to a wildlife preserve, hang out with friends who have dogs and cats. Get used to just being around them and seeing how your friends interact with them, then work your way up to befriending them.
posted by Metroid Baby at 8:09 AM on October 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
I grew up adoring animals and had no idea how anyone could be a non-animal lover. Now that I'm a grown-up, I kind of can't stand the messy things... in Theory. Same with kids. However! Individual animals and kids tend to be pretty cool, honestly, or I can at least tolerate them for visits and social-time. So I agree with folks above - maybe start with cats, which aren't as annoying, and a friend who has some non-scratchy ones, and just ask if you can hang out with them around. Move up to dogs.
This will enable you to be ok with individual mostly-non-annoying animals, so that you could maybe even date someone who has one. You don't have to love them, as I said I don't want them myself now, but it'll help you lose the contempt and be more accepting of the huge part of the population that like pets, broadening your dating pool And your horizons.
posted by ldthomps at 8:25 AM on October 24, 2011
This will enable you to be ok with individual mostly-non-annoying animals, so that you could maybe even date someone who has one. You don't have to love them, as I said I don't want them myself now, but it'll help you lose the contempt and be more accepting of the huge part of the population that like pets, broadening your dating pool And your horizons.
posted by ldthomps at 8:25 AM on October 24, 2011
but I still feel a visceral reaction at animal rights activities
I've kept checking in on this question this morning, and I reread your comments again and this jumped out at me. Do you know why you have this kind of reaction to animal rights activities? Usually people have these kinds of reactions after having bad experiences, but I am at a loss to understand how you could have had a traumatizing animal rights experience.
posted by crankylex at 8:59 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
I've kept checking in on this question this morning, and I reread your comments again and this jumped out at me. Do you know why you have this kind of reaction to animal rights activities? Usually people have these kinds of reactions after having bad experiences, but I am at a loss to understand how you could have had a traumatizing animal rights experience.
posted by crankylex at 8:59 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
I've got a buddy with a crazy fear of animals. Any time he sees a do he jumps up and has what looks like a panic attack. We used to tease him a bit in High School, but he has been successfully married twice so it hasn't held him back much.
posted by Ad hominem at 9:06 AM on October 24, 2011
posted by Ad hominem at 9:06 AM on October 24, 2011
From what I read here, all your anti-animal and anti-ecology posts just make you seem profoundly insecure. Granted, I'm only going on what I read, but if you've got to create and explain such overt, artificial boundaries between you and the rest of the world you inhabit it must be filling some sort of need to feel elevated over... something. That's pretty unattractive, like people who are rude to the waitstaff.
posted by oneirodynia at 9:13 AM on October 24, 2011 [16 favorites]
posted by oneirodynia at 9:13 AM on October 24, 2011 [16 favorites]
Best answer: I don't see the problem with the facebook page, compassion for whales is not required to be a moral person. Most people don't have enough compassion for cows or pigs to not have them warehoused, slaughtered, and cooked, so why should whales be special? For the recond, LiB, I don't agree with you on that, but I imagine plenty of people do so I see no need to hide that part of your beliefs. I agree with other commenters that it's not necessary to go around announcing that you hate animals to people, but you definitely aren't required to be an animal rights activist if you want to get a date. I'm sure there's the perfect little animal hater waiting out there for you somewhere, the issue will be not alienating everyone else before you meet her.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:27 AM on October 24, 2011
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:27 AM on October 24, 2011
Best answer: So my dislike of animals isn't quite as strong as yours--I've been won over by cats and rodents, and I like pictures of cute animals on the Internet--but for the most part I don't like them, or want to be around them, or understand some people's all-encompassing devotion to them. Especially dogs. Like you, though, I am pretty anti-animal rights--not that I think it's okay to torture animals for fun or anything, it just makes me kind of ill that so many people spend so much time and effort on animal rights causes when so many human beings in the world are suffering.
That explanation, BTW, actually tends to placate the few people I express my opinion to. It's something even all but the most hardcore and over-the-top animal lovers can empathize with, even if they don't feel the same way. And it demonstrates that I am, in fact, a compassionate and empathetic individual, and not a psychopath.
But generally, I don't express my opinion, for the same reason I don't express my general dislike of children: it's more trouble than it's worth, and risks offending my friends and loved ones (some of whom are vegan, or devoted dog-owners, or parents) in a possibly irreparable way. So I just keep it to myself, and it's not really a problem when it comes to forming friendships or relationships. I can be friends with dog-lovers and not have to spend lots of time with their pets, and if I encounter someone who feels so strongly about animal rights that my opinion on the matter is a deal-breaker, well a relationship with us wasn't going to work out anyway and I wouldn't want to try to make it.
posted by rhiannonstone at 9:43 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
That explanation, BTW, actually tends to placate the few people I express my opinion to. It's something even all but the most hardcore and over-the-top animal lovers can empathize with, even if they don't feel the same way. And it demonstrates that I am, in fact, a compassionate and empathetic individual, and not a psychopath.
But generally, I don't express my opinion, for the same reason I don't express my general dislike of children: it's more trouble than it's worth, and risks offending my friends and loved ones (some of whom are vegan, or devoted dog-owners, or parents) in a possibly irreparable way. So I just keep it to myself, and it's not really a problem when it comes to forming friendships or relationships. I can be friends with dog-lovers and not have to spend lots of time with their pets, and if I encounter someone who feels so strongly about animal rights that my opinion on the matter is a deal-breaker, well a relationship with us wasn't going to work out anyway and I wouldn't want to try to make it.
posted by rhiannonstone at 9:43 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Living in the modern world, it is easy to feel like humans have really no relationship with animals at all (other than as packages of meat in a grocery store or food on your plate.) I'm here to recommend a book by an anthropologist in hopes that understanding animals and their long relationship with humans through time a bit more may help you: Being with Animals. There is definitely a touchy feely component, but the science is solid and you should give it a try. I don't expect this to make you love animals, but perhaps it might help you at least intellectually to less *actively* dislike them (which can come off as creepy), and to move more towards an attitude perhaps of casual indifference, at least.
I will nth also watching a few well made documentaries on animals and animal behavior as possibly helpful. I would do all that prior to taking the next step of actually hanging around with the pets of friends. The idea, as I said, is to build up some understanding of them and at least become indifferent to them, rather than vocally and actively hating all animals.
Just as a note, I am pretty phobic about dogs, having been attacked by one as a kid, and I get pretty fearful encountering strange dogs off a leash, but if I come to know a particular dog, and so know it will not bite or attack, then it is fine, and I have had pet dogs that I loved. I would never say unreservedly that I love all dogs, but I can love certain ones and get along with the nice ones. I am actually somewhat allergic to dogs, which also helps as an excuse if someone does not get why I may not want to be around an overly aggressive one. Sometimes little white lies can smooth over the social stuff.
posted by gudrun at 9:51 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
I will nth also watching a few well made documentaries on animals and animal behavior as possibly helpful. I would do all that prior to taking the next step of actually hanging around with the pets of friends. The idea, as I said, is to build up some understanding of them and at least become indifferent to them, rather than vocally and actively hating all animals.
Just as a note, I am pretty phobic about dogs, having been attacked by one as a kid, and I get pretty fearful encountering strange dogs off a leash, but if I come to know a particular dog, and so know it will not bite or attack, then it is fine, and I have had pet dogs that I loved. I would never say unreservedly that I love all dogs, but I can love certain ones and get along with the nice ones. I am actually somewhat allergic to dogs, which also helps as an excuse if someone does not get why I may not want to be around an overly aggressive one. Sometimes little white lies can smooth over the social stuff.
posted by gudrun at 9:51 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't quite get the conflating of animal rights and pets.
I can understand not liking some creature getting in your personal space, like a lot of dogs will do, but a "visceral reaction at animal rights activities?" Is that really about the animals, or is the reaction to people expressing strong convictions that you don't agree with? Would you get the same feeling at a demonstration for a political belief you didn't hold, or a tent revival for a religion you didn't believe?
posted by RobotHero at 10:02 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
I can understand not liking some creature getting in your personal space, like a lot of dogs will do, but a "visceral reaction at animal rights activities?" Is that really about the animals, or is the reaction to people expressing strong convictions that you don't agree with? Would you get the same feeling at a demonstration for a political belief you didn't hold, or a tent revival for a religion you didn't believe?
posted by RobotHero at 10:02 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
I get irritated when people seem to like pets better than humans. Like maybe they want everybody to be small and pleasing. Or to not talk back. But that's my problem, or possibly theirs, and doesn't have anything to do with the animals. Animals just are.
This is why posting "kill all the whales" on a page that's partly supposed to be an introduction to you is off-putting to a potential date, whale-specific content aside: 1) How would you know whether or how much a stranger meant it? Why wouldn't you remember that you're just as much of a stranger to other people? 2) Women especially, given their vulnerability to violence and stalking and being consigned to other-dom, tend to be alarmed by an apparent lack of empathy (there cannot possibly be enough information on your facebook page to indicate whether it's obscured by neurosis or simply absent) and what could for all they know be genuine enthusiasm for violence against defenseless creatures who didn't do anything. People here can't even tell whether you mean it. And really, if you're indifferent to it rather than opposed to it, jokingly calling for whale slaughter is more gross than dark. You could be a character in somebody else's dark comedy, maybe.
But this is all critcism. My first suggestion, which I would understand ignoring, is to take mushrooms. It's a good way to get in touch with what's under your defenses and to feel a bit like an animal in the world yourself. My second suggestion is to start with trying to appreciate the animals we understand to be smarter -- chimps (maybe a Jane Goodall book), gorillas, dolphins (have you ever been on a boat that had dolphins jumping across the bow? I cannot tell you how surreal and fun it is to find yourself in the middle of a spontaneous game invented and played by wild animals. Also, dolphins saved Dick Van Dyke's life when he fell asleep on a surfboard one time, true story), even whales. It doesn't sound like a bad life, being a whale. Most of the ocean to roam around in, too big to have to worry about being eaten. And then there's the singing. If it's a sin to kill a mockingbird, it's definitely a sin to kill a whale. I'm not crazy about killing cows either, now that you mention it. But I didn't get the impression that you were pointing out the hypocrisy of opposing whale hunting if you eat meat (which isn't entirely hypocritical, in that the cow species is not in danger of going extinct). If that is your point, you need to provide much more context, and not sound like you have contempt for the animals you eat and wouldn't care if all of them were dead. I don't eat meat much anymore but seem to recall that the healthiest attitude, if you did not put it out of your mind entirely, was gratitude, and at least of the sheepish variety if you know that the animals you're eating were in pain and chewing each others' tails off or whatever all their lives.
posted by Adventurer at 10:16 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
This is why posting "kill all the whales" on a page that's partly supposed to be an introduction to you is off-putting to a potential date, whale-specific content aside: 1) How would you know whether or how much a stranger meant it? Why wouldn't you remember that you're just as much of a stranger to other people? 2) Women especially, given their vulnerability to violence and stalking and being consigned to other-dom, tend to be alarmed by an apparent lack of empathy (there cannot possibly be enough information on your facebook page to indicate whether it's obscured by neurosis or simply absent) and what could for all they know be genuine enthusiasm for violence against defenseless creatures who didn't do anything. People here can't even tell whether you mean it. And really, if you're indifferent to it rather than opposed to it, jokingly calling for whale slaughter is more gross than dark. You could be a character in somebody else's dark comedy, maybe.
But this is all critcism. My first suggestion, which I would understand ignoring, is to take mushrooms. It's a good way to get in touch with what's under your defenses and to feel a bit like an animal in the world yourself. My second suggestion is to start with trying to appreciate the animals we understand to be smarter -- chimps (maybe a Jane Goodall book), gorillas, dolphins (have you ever been on a boat that had dolphins jumping across the bow? I cannot tell you how surreal and fun it is to find yourself in the middle of a spontaneous game invented and played by wild animals. Also, dolphins saved Dick Van Dyke's life when he fell asleep on a surfboard one time, true story), even whales. It doesn't sound like a bad life, being a whale. Most of the ocean to roam around in, too big to have to worry about being eaten. And then there's the singing. If it's a sin to kill a mockingbird, it's definitely a sin to kill a whale. I'm not crazy about killing cows either, now that you mention it. But I didn't get the impression that you were pointing out the hypocrisy of opposing whale hunting if you eat meat (which isn't entirely hypocritical, in that the cow species is not in danger of going extinct). If that is your point, you need to provide much more context, and not sound like you have contempt for the animals you eat and wouldn't care if all of them were dead. I don't eat meat much anymore but seem to recall that the healthiest attitude, if you did not put it out of your mind entirely, was gratitude, and at least of the sheepish variety if you know that the animals you're eating were in pain and chewing each others' tails off or whatever all their lives.
posted by Adventurer at 10:16 AM on October 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think people use attitudes towards pets as a proxy for all kinds of things -- empathy, compassion, a sense of social justice -- that it bears no relation at all to. None.
I'll come out and say it here: I don't like pets. I didn't grow up with them. I don't like taking care of them. I hate their slobberiness, hairiness, urinating everywhere-ness. I am glad I don't have them, don't enjoy taking care of them, and don't really understand why their unconditional love is valuable in any way. (I am also allergic to both cats and dogs, but that is not the origin of my lack of desire to interact with them.)
HOWEVER -- I am polite to my friends that have pets. I have great empathy for animals in general, as a group. I worry about the trade-offs involved in putting animals in zoos (promoting awareness of conservation and extinction for animals in the wild and study that can lead to better overall ecological and individual health vs. imprisonment for a few). I'm not pro-animal rights when the cost to humans is high, but I am pro-reducing suffering whenever possible for all beings.
I don't torture animals and don't want them to suffer. I just don't want to live with them or take care of them.
Some people might think that this is a bad sign in me as a prospective partner. But I am extremely caring and generous to my friends. I take care of people when they are sick. I help people when they are suffering. I have suffered a lot in my life and I have a lot of compassion for weakness and understanding of complexities.
So, in my case, my total lack of desire to have anything to do with domesticated animals has NO CORRELATION to my compassion or kindness. It just means that I am not compatible with people who want to live with pets. And I shouldn't own them. So I don't.
Maybe, despite the silly Kill the Whales thing, you are like me. In which case, just tell people that you are allergic to pets (whether you are or not). Be nice about it. Don't make this the cornerstone of your personality.
And show your compassion towards humans in other ways. Find something you love that promotes making the world better. It doesn't have to be a soup kitchen or a hospice. It can be genuinely interesting to you. It can be an advocacy group for a neglected people. Or public understanding of science. Or disseminating great literature that people would benefit from reading. If I were thinking of dating you, that would interest me a lot more than that you were nice to an animal you bought and keep in your house.
posted by 3491again at 10:51 AM on October 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
I'll come out and say it here: I don't like pets. I didn't grow up with them. I don't like taking care of them. I hate their slobberiness, hairiness, urinating everywhere-ness. I am glad I don't have them, don't enjoy taking care of them, and don't really understand why their unconditional love is valuable in any way. (I am also allergic to both cats and dogs, but that is not the origin of my lack of desire to interact with them.)
HOWEVER -- I am polite to my friends that have pets. I have great empathy for animals in general, as a group. I worry about the trade-offs involved in putting animals in zoos (promoting awareness of conservation and extinction for animals in the wild and study that can lead to better overall ecological and individual health vs. imprisonment for a few). I'm not pro-animal rights when the cost to humans is high, but I am pro-reducing suffering whenever possible for all beings.
I don't torture animals and don't want them to suffer. I just don't want to live with them or take care of them.
Some people might think that this is a bad sign in me as a prospective partner. But I am extremely caring and generous to my friends. I take care of people when they are sick. I help people when they are suffering. I have suffered a lot in my life and I have a lot of compassion for weakness and understanding of complexities.
So, in my case, my total lack of desire to have anything to do with domesticated animals has NO CORRELATION to my compassion or kindness. It just means that I am not compatible with people who want to live with pets. And I shouldn't own them. So I don't.
Maybe, despite the silly Kill the Whales thing, you are like me. In which case, just tell people that you are allergic to pets (whether you are or not). Be nice about it. Don't make this the cornerstone of your personality.
And show your compassion towards humans in other ways. Find something you love that promotes making the world better. It doesn't have to be a soup kitchen or a hospice. It can be genuinely interesting to you. It can be an advocacy group for a neglected people. Or public understanding of science. Or disseminating great literature that people would benefit from reading. If I were thinking of dating you, that would interest me a lot more than that you were nice to an animal you bought and keep in your house.
posted by 3491again at 10:51 AM on October 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I'm going to make what might sound like an odd suggestion and say that, rather than trying to make yourself love animals more or trying to beat down all these things you don't like about yourself, try focusing positively on what you really, honestly like, participating in those activities with others, and focusing on your own personal hobbies that you really enjoy.
Speaking from my own experience, spending my time doing this has a tendency to make whatever bitterness I feel towards other things and people fall away. It just stops mattering to me. Also, I become a much more pleasant person to be around and become less creepy to other people. Assuming these activities don't involve causing harm to others and doing them makes you feel better about yourself, I think it can only help you.
You may never feel much of a kinship towards animals, but that's not a big deal if you don't make a big deal about it. If you don't give it so much room to occupy your brain, chances are you won't care to think about it so much, and you will no longer care enough to regret taking the "Screw whales" thing off your Facebook page.
posted by wondermouse at 11:22 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Speaking from my own experience, spending my time doing this has a tendency to make whatever bitterness I feel towards other things and people fall away. It just stops mattering to me. Also, I become a much more pleasant person to be around and become less creepy to other people. Assuming these activities don't involve causing harm to others and doing them makes you feel better about yourself, I think it can only help you.
You may never feel much of a kinship towards animals, but that's not a big deal if you don't make a big deal about it. If you don't give it so much room to occupy your brain, chances are you won't care to think about it so much, and you will no longer care enough to regret taking the "Screw whales" thing off your Facebook page.
posted by wondermouse at 11:22 AM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Mod note: folks, question is not anon, feel free to take sideline discussions up via MeMail. thanks
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:14 PM on October 24, 2011
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:14 PM on October 24, 2011
Best answer: Another thing about why this is creepy that's come up tangentially in this thread, and I think might be helpful to expand on a little...
You've mentioned thinking that animals are "by definition" lesser than humans. I'm wondering what/whose definition this is? As far as I am aware, science has never been able to definitively state what, if anything, separates humans from all other animals. One would have to resort to religious explanations to say that humans are not just another kind of animal. But it's true that most non-human animals are less intelligent than most humans.
But animals can still think, they can still feel pain and suffer, many of them display compassion and empathy for others, many of them have friends and family and display loyalty to them.
It comes off like a serious defect in whatever part of the brain is responsible for empathy, that you know for a fact that a being can feel pain and suffer, and yet not care because you feel a sense of superiority to that being. Or because you see that being as less intelligent than you are, or less "useful". Most people just instinctively feel empathy when they see another being suffering, no matter what that being is or its intelligence or usefulness. It is hard-wired into us. Adventurer completely nailed it with this: Women especially, given their vulnerability to violence and stalking and being consigned to other-dom, tend to be alarmed by an apparent lack of empathy
If you are a stranger to me, Lovecraft in Brooklyn, how do I know that you won't kill me? How do I know, if I had children with you, that you wouldn't harm the children? One way to know is to observe your empathy towards the suffering of others. To see whether that part of the brain that kicks in when others suffer is functional in you. To NOT see that part of the brain kicking in is creepy, it makes one wonder if it's fully functional. And it's creepy because in people for whom it's NOT fully functional, you see all kinds of horrific behaviors.
posted by cairdeas at 12:18 PM on October 24, 2011 [14 favorites]
You've mentioned thinking that animals are "by definition" lesser than humans. I'm wondering what/whose definition this is? As far as I am aware, science has never been able to definitively state what, if anything, separates humans from all other animals. One would have to resort to religious explanations to say that humans are not just another kind of animal. But it's true that most non-human animals are less intelligent than most humans.
But animals can still think, they can still feel pain and suffer, many of them display compassion and empathy for others, many of them have friends and family and display loyalty to them.
It comes off like a serious defect in whatever part of the brain is responsible for empathy, that you know for a fact that a being can feel pain and suffer, and yet not care because you feel a sense of superiority to that being. Or because you see that being as less intelligent than you are, or less "useful". Most people just instinctively feel empathy when they see another being suffering, no matter what that being is or its intelligence or usefulness. It is hard-wired into us. Adventurer completely nailed it with this: Women especially, given their vulnerability to violence and stalking and being consigned to other-dom, tend to be alarmed by an apparent lack of empathy
If you are a stranger to me, Lovecraft in Brooklyn, how do I know that you won't kill me? How do I know, if I had children with you, that you wouldn't harm the children? One way to know is to observe your empathy towards the suffering of others. To see whether that part of the brain that kicks in when others suffer is functional in you. To NOT see that part of the brain kicking in is creepy, it makes one wonder if it's fully functional. And it's creepy because in people for whom it's NOT fully functional, you see all kinds of horrific behaviors.
posted by cairdeas at 12:18 PM on October 24, 2011 [14 favorites]
Also--
How do I mitigate or change my dislike and fear of animals?
Many times when I was growing up, I was stuck in a situation where I was being screamed at/hit by an adult, and then I would go hide. And my dog would come find me, and would very clearly do his best to make me feel better. It's very powerful when you realize that this animal actually understands what you are feeling and is trying to help you. Even now as an adult, when you have a bad day and feel like you screw everything up, everyone hates you and you suck, and you come home and an animal clearly doesn't care what you have screwed up and is just happy to see you, it is very powerful too. It's possible that if you put yourself in a situation where *you* are being comforted by an animal, you might begin to feel empathy for them.
posted by cairdeas at 12:25 PM on October 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
How do I mitigate or change my dislike and fear of animals?
Many times when I was growing up, I was stuck in a situation where I was being screamed at/hit by an adult, and then I would go hide. And my dog would come find me, and would very clearly do his best to make me feel better. It's very powerful when you realize that this animal actually understands what you are feeling and is trying to help you. Even now as an adult, when you have a bad day and feel like you screw everything up, everyone hates you and you suck, and you come home and an animal clearly doesn't care what you have screwed up and is just happy to see you, it is very powerful too. It's possible that if you put yourself in a situation where *you* are being comforted by an animal, you might begin to feel empathy for them.
posted by cairdeas at 12:25 PM on October 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
Best answer: And --
If someone pretty much told you flat-out, "I have no empathy for your family and loved ones, and I would find it funny if they were killed, and even the worst murderer is worth more then they are in my opinion," and they meant it, I assume you would find that really creepy, maybe even angering and you would not want to be around that person. So it might help if you remembered that for many, many people, there are animals included in their family and loved ones.
posted by cairdeas at 12:36 PM on October 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
If someone pretty much told you flat-out, "I have no empathy for your family and loved ones, and I would find it funny if they were killed, and even the worst murderer is worth more then they are in my opinion," and they meant it, I assume you would find that really creepy, maybe even angering and you would not want to be around that person. So it might help if you remembered that for many, many people, there are animals included in their family and loved ones.
posted by cairdeas at 12:36 PM on October 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
I just reread this, and this really stuck out:
I pretty much hate animals, which is probably something I shouldn't say. They're not human beings, for one, and while I've made strides in understanding human being animals are, yes, alien to me.
They're not human beings --> you hate them just doesn't follow. They're alien to you, so you hate them? Really? There are so many other reactions you could have without loving them: indifference, curiosity, fear, like some/hate others. But you are explicitly saying that you hate them because they're not in your group. You hate them because you don't understand them. Are you sure you only react this way to members of other species?
I think you would be a lot happier if you didn't derive so much value from being a member of a group that is worth belonging to (humans, people who like a particular kind of music) vs. non-humans. Part of your deal, as you say above, seems to be that you're defining yourself against, say, annoying vegans or PETA members or whatever. But vegans aren't animals. Animals aren't abstractions. And you aren't your group. Your personal value has nothing to do with who irritates you, what you think strangers think they can tell about you by looking at you, or who else shares your personal tastes and reactions. If all you had going for you was belonging to certain teams instead of others, you wouldn't have much at all. But being a living thinking feeling dude, you cannot help but have much more than that.
posted by Adventurer at 1:40 PM on October 24, 2011 [6 favorites]
I pretty much hate animals, which is probably something I shouldn't say. They're not human beings, for one, and while I've made strides in understanding human being animals are, yes, alien to me.
They're not human beings --> you hate them just doesn't follow. They're alien to you, so you hate them? Really? There are so many other reactions you could have without loving them: indifference, curiosity, fear, like some/hate others. But you are explicitly saying that you hate them because they're not in your group. You hate them because you don't understand them. Are you sure you only react this way to members of other species?
I think you would be a lot happier if you didn't derive so much value from being a member of a group that is worth belonging to (humans, people who like a particular kind of music) vs. non-humans. Part of your deal, as you say above, seems to be that you're defining yourself against, say, annoying vegans or PETA members or whatever. But vegans aren't animals. Animals aren't abstractions. And you aren't your group. Your personal value has nothing to do with who irritates you, what you think strangers think they can tell about you by looking at you, or who else shares your personal tastes and reactions. If all you had going for you was belonging to certain teams instead of others, you wouldn't have much at all. But being a living thinking feeling dude, you cannot help but have much more than that.
posted by Adventurer at 1:40 PM on October 24, 2011 [6 favorites]
Correction: vegans are animals. I am not an animal. I am a word on the internet.
posted by Adventurer at 1:44 PM on October 24, 2011
posted by Adventurer at 1:44 PM on October 24, 2011
Response by poster: I know this is a cliche, but not only are some of my best friends vegans but I've dated a vegan. My social circle is so filled with them that 'do you eat meat?' is a reflective question when deciding on things to do.
I've kept checking in on this question this morning, and I reread your comments again and this jumped out at me. Do you know why you have this kind of reaction to animal rights activities? Usually people have these kinds of reactions after having bad experiences, but I am at a loss to understand how you could have had a traumatizing animal rights experience.
People who put animal rights ahead of human rights are putting animals - a non-human species - above humans. Think of people who cheer when a bullfighter gets killed by a bull. They prefer one of their own to suffer.
Humans have reason and self-awareness. We are NOT just dumb beasts. The animal part of us is the part of us that is mortal.
But yeah, I'll add 'lack of empathy' to the long list of things to talk to my therapist about this week.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 2:04 PM on October 24, 2011
I've kept checking in on this question this morning, and I reread your comments again and this jumped out at me. Do you know why you have this kind of reaction to animal rights activities? Usually people have these kinds of reactions after having bad experiences, but I am at a loss to understand how you could have had a traumatizing animal rights experience.
People who put animal rights ahead of human rights are putting animals - a non-human species - above humans. Think of people who cheer when a bullfighter gets killed by a bull. They prefer one of their own to suffer.
Humans have reason and self-awareness. We are NOT just dumb beasts. The animal part of us is the part of us that is mortal.
But yeah, I'll add 'lack of empathy' to the long list of things to talk to my therapist about this week.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 2:04 PM on October 24, 2011
Response by poster: I just remembered somebody who'd been out with me making fun of me on Facebook because I 'hated cows'.
Also, I might go on one a hike or bush walk. After figuring out which spiders and snakes are poisonous.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 2:07 PM on October 24, 2011
Also, I might go on one a hike or bush walk. After figuring out which spiders and snakes are poisonous.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 2:07 PM on October 24, 2011
Well if they bite you, Lovecraft, just bite back. They have to learn.
Anyway, valuing animal rights doesn't require devaluing human rights.
I agree that it is tasteless and callous to cheer when a bullfighter gets killed by a bull. A person's death is never something to cheer about.
I did smirk once when a bullfighter got gored in the leg, and nonfatally injured, by a bull. After all, it was the bullfighter who started it. He had to learn.
posted by tel3path at 2:13 PM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Anyway, valuing animal rights doesn't require devaluing human rights.
I agree that it is tasteless and callous to cheer when a bullfighter gets killed by a bull. A person's death is never something to cheer about.
I did smirk once when a bullfighter got gored in the leg, and nonfatally injured, by a bull. After all, it was the bullfighter who started it. He had to learn.
posted by tel3path at 2:13 PM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Humans have reason and self-awareness. We are NOT just dumb beasts. The animal part of us is the part of us that is mortal.
As to self-awareness, it might interest you to learn about the mirror test, if you haven't already heard of it. As to reasoning ability, there is tool use by animals.
If you really do want to learn how to change this about yourself, as you said in the OP, I'm starting to think it really might be helpful to actually learn about what we do know about animals and their abilities. It is starting to sound like you don't actually know the facts about non-human animals and maybe some of your feelings are based on that.
People who put animal rights ahead of human rights are putting animals - a non-human species - above humans. Think of people who cheer when a bullfighter gets killed by a bull. They prefer one of their own to suffer.
Someone isn't one of my own just because they're same kind of animal, and someone's not an other to me just because they're not the same kind of animal. Someone who is publicly torturing and killing another creature for entertainment, a creature who has no desire to be in that situation, isn't part of "my own" just because they happen to be in the same genus and species that I am.
That said, most of animal rights isn't about one-to-one human death vs. animal death. It's about things like, you shouldn't be allowed to torture animals just for fun. Putting more importance on an animal not suffering horribly than a human having a bit of sick fun. It's about things like, meat animals shouldn't be kept under inhumane conditions even though the price of meat will rise if they are kept in better conditions. Putting more importance on an animal not suffering horribly than a human saving a few dollars or eating something else.
If, to you, the littlest bit of inconvenience to what you see as "your group" should be considered a more important consideration than the massive amount of suffering of another group, that goes right back to the empathy problem.
posted by cairdeas at 2:24 PM on October 24, 2011 [15 favorites]
As to self-awareness, it might interest you to learn about the mirror test, if you haven't already heard of it. As to reasoning ability, there is tool use by animals.
If you really do want to learn how to change this about yourself, as you said in the OP, I'm starting to think it really might be helpful to actually learn about what we do know about animals and their abilities. It is starting to sound like you don't actually know the facts about non-human animals and maybe some of your feelings are based on that.
People who put animal rights ahead of human rights are putting animals - a non-human species - above humans. Think of people who cheer when a bullfighter gets killed by a bull. They prefer one of their own to suffer.
Someone isn't one of my own just because they're same kind of animal, and someone's not an other to me just because they're not the same kind of animal. Someone who is publicly torturing and killing another creature for entertainment, a creature who has no desire to be in that situation, isn't part of "my own" just because they happen to be in the same genus and species that I am.
That said, most of animal rights isn't about one-to-one human death vs. animal death. It's about things like, you shouldn't be allowed to torture animals just for fun. Putting more importance on an animal not suffering horribly than a human having a bit of sick fun. It's about things like, meat animals shouldn't be kept under inhumane conditions even though the price of meat will rise if they are kept in better conditions. Putting more importance on an animal not suffering horribly than a human saving a few dollars or eating something else.
If, to you, the littlest bit of inconvenience to what you see as "your group" should be considered a more important consideration than the massive amount of suffering of another group, that goes right back to the empathy problem.
posted by cairdeas at 2:24 PM on October 24, 2011 [15 favorites]
If you haven't, I'd rent BBC's Life and/or Planet Earth series. If you've never seriously looked into biology and ecology, you'll be astounded at how minor the differences between humans and other animals are.
[Also: some people cheer for the bull to gore the human because they are assholes. But many of us cheer for the bull because the matador is an asshole who is torturing a bull for fun. FYI.]
posted by auto-correct at 2:33 PM on October 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
[Also: some people cheer for the bull to gore the human because they are assholes. But many of us cheer for the bull because the matador is an asshole who is torturing a bull for fun. FYI.]
posted by auto-correct at 2:33 PM on October 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Folks can we keep this thread more or less on target and stop shifting the center of what's being talked about? There are other sites to just chat about stuff, this is not one of them. Problem solving answers and OP, please stick to your question. Thank you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:45 PM on October 24, 2011
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:45 PM on October 24, 2011
People who put animal rights ahead of human rights are putting animals - a non-human species - above humans. Think of people who cheer when a bullfighter gets killed by a bull. They prefer one of their own to suffer.
Well, no - they prefer humans to not torment animals for entertainment. If a man were just innocently walking down the street, minding his own business, and an animal came over and killed him, no one but the most extreme misanthrope would cheer about that. The bull in a bullfighting situation is doing what any animal, human included, would do: fighting for survival. I do not believe it's a "human right" to torture an animal. Animals may not have the same kind of intelligence as humans, they may not write poems and make vaccines and whatever, but they are not completely stupid, many are capable of learning, and many do feel pain and emotions on some level. If you are able to accept that, that would probably solve this problem for you.
posted by wondermouse at 3:00 PM on October 24, 2011 [9 favorites]
Well, no - they prefer humans to not torment animals for entertainment. If a man were just innocently walking down the street, minding his own business, and an animal came over and killed him, no one but the most extreme misanthrope would cheer about that. The bull in a bullfighting situation is doing what any animal, human included, would do: fighting for survival. I do not believe it's a "human right" to torture an animal. Animals may not have the same kind of intelligence as humans, they may not write poems and make vaccines and whatever, but they are not completely stupid, many are capable of learning, and many do feel pain and emotions on some level. If you are able to accept that, that would probably solve this problem for you.
posted by wondermouse at 3:00 PM on October 24, 2011 [9 favorites]
Think of people who cheer when a bullfighter gets killed by a bull. They prefer one of their own to suffer.
They have a different definition of what is "one of their own."
posted by RobotHero at 3:02 PM on October 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
They have a different definition of what is "one of their own."
posted by RobotHero at 3:02 PM on October 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
Disliking animals does not make you a bad person. Get rid of that thought.
Being mean or cruel to animals makes you a bad person, but disliking them is simply a preference. There are plenty of very rational and sound reasons to dislike animals, especially around the house. Me, I love cats but a bloody loathe dogs. I have my reasons. They make sense. The important thing is you shouldn't lie about this. Honesty matters. If they don't like you because of your feelings about animals, you're better off without them.
posted by Decani at 3:07 PM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Being mean or cruel to animals makes you a bad person, but disliking them is simply a preference. There are plenty of very rational and sound reasons to dislike animals, especially around the house. Me, I love cats but a bloody loathe dogs. I have my reasons. They make sense. The important thing is you shouldn't lie about this. Honesty matters. If they don't like you because of your feelings about animals, you're better off without them.
posted by Decani at 3:07 PM on October 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Best answer: As a general rule it's not so appealing to define yourself by what you hate or disdain. Define yourself more by what you like or are interested in.
Someone else said above that you should focus on positive things in your profiles, rather than negative things - this doesn't mean being an optimist, it just means not being that guy who's always focusing on things to hate or disdain. You might feel like "conventional wisdom says animals are so great/nature is beautiful/etc, but I am an original thinker because I think they suck"... but if all your original thoughts are "x sucks", well, after a while it's a downer and not very interesting. Doesn't make you seem like someone who would be fun to spend time with. You like music and all kinds of other things, so you know, focus on those things in your online profiles and it will make you seem like a more enjoyable person to be with.
To get a sense, maybe flip it around - how would you feel about a woman's profile if she went on and on about how she hated music, all musicians were stupid, did you hear this stupid band's song, etc? Lame, right? Whereas if she said "not really into music, but really into art and comics", (naming something else that she WAS into) that would make her sound more fun.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:14 PM on October 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
Someone else said above that you should focus on positive things in your profiles, rather than negative things - this doesn't mean being an optimist, it just means not being that guy who's always focusing on things to hate or disdain. You might feel like "conventional wisdom says animals are so great/nature is beautiful/etc, but I am an original thinker because I think they suck"... but if all your original thoughts are "x sucks", well, after a while it's a downer and not very interesting. Doesn't make you seem like someone who would be fun to spend time with. You like music and all kinds of other things, so you know, focus on those things in your online profiles and it will make you seem like a more enjoyable person to be with.
To get a sense, maybe flip it around - how would you feel about a woman's profile if she went on and on about how she hated music, all musicians were stupid, did you hear this stupid band's song, etc? Lame, right? Whereas if she said "not really into music, but really into art and comics", (naming something else that she WAS into) that would make her sound more fun.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:14 PM on October 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
Your question may show a fear that you are doing something for which people will judge you a "creep," and your reaction to other people's hatred of the bullfighter or "The Japanese" could be related to this. You can imagine yourself being condemned for transgressing some moral code you never agreed to or don't fully understand, so you prefer that the worth of a human life is not contingent upon behaviour.
I'm only allowing myself this theorizing because my earlier quippage about "they have a different definition" might play into that same fear, and I'd like to mitigate that.
posted by RobotHero at 5:07 PM on October 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
I'm only allowing myself this theorizing because my earlier quippage about "they have a different definition" might play into that same fear, and I'd like to mitigate that.
posted by RobotHero at 5:07 PM on October 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
Best answer: You also may want to talk to your therapist about impulse control. It would seem that you posted this question less than 24 hours ago, but are currently over in another thread making negative and inflammatory comments about animals. Unless you are trolling, you seem to have very little control over your behavior to a point where it is actually quite concerning.
posted by troublewithwolves at 8:29 PM on October 24, 2011 [16 favorites]
posted by troublewithwolves at 8:29 PM on October 24, 2011 [16 favorites]
LiB, how do you think it makes us feel when you ask us a question about how to change an aspect of yourself, we take our time to do our very best to answer you thoughtfully, and hours later we see you flagrantly relishing that very aspect of yourself in a way that shoves it in our faces and upsets people?
It feels disrespectful and contemptuous. You asked us about creepiness. At the base of all of this seems to be lack of respect towards "those who are not LiB" and contempt towards "those who are LiB." If you were serious about wanting to change the creepiness, maybe that would be the place to start.
posted by cairdeas at 9:34 PM on October 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
It feels disrespectful and contemptuous. You asked us about creepiness. At the base of all of this seems to be lack of respect towards "those who are not LiB" and contempt towards "those who are LiB." If you were serious about wanting to change the creepiness, maybe that would be the place to start.
posted by cairdeas at 9:34 PM on October 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
I've known a lot of people who disliked particular animals: cats, dogs, birds, rats, etc and it's never bothered anything - we all know that one person's beautiful carrier pigeon is someone else's' rat with wings. Maybe the thing to do is to think about whether you really hate the entire animal kingdom or if there are parts of it that you like and think you might appreciate. To that end watching nature shows (as others have suggested) might not be a bad idea. Maybe your passion will be fruit bats. Or millipedes. Or chickens. Or something else.
People with any sense of empathy don't expect everyone to love their pets or all animals; but if someone expresses hatred for the entire animal kingdom or wants an entire species wiped out (apart from mosquitos, the little bastards), it is a little unusual and would set off alarms for me. It's just such an extreme position. But if you honestly feel that way, perhaps the best thing is not to lie, but to find someone else who feels like you do? That might be tough, but when you found them, at least you'd know it was based on truth.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 9:40 PM on October 24, 2011
People with any sense of empathy don't expect everyone to love their pets or all animals; but if someone expresses hatred for the entire animal kingdom or wants an entire species wiped out (apart from mosquitos, the little bastards), it is a little unusual and would set off alarms for me. It's just such an extreme position. But if you honestly feel that way, perhaps the best thing is not to lie, but to find someone else who feels like you do? That might be tough, but when you found them, at least you'd know it was based on truth.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 9:40 PM on October 24, 2011
Humans have reason and self-awareness. We are NOT just dumb beasts. The animal part of us is the part of us that is mortal.
Setting aside the fact that we don't really know how smart certain sea mammals are, if you're going to say "humans can make animals suffer any degree of pain for the slightest of reasons" on account of these criteria alone, what do you personally do with seriously developmentally disabled or brain-damaged humans who are not, technically, smarter than chimpanzees? What about the profoundly autistic, who don't make art? I'm assuming that art-making is what you're talking about when you refer to "the part of us that is (im)mortal," as most religious folk take a kinder view toward animals. (Although it does sound like you're getting that "dumb beast" stuff out of King James or something. It's not very nuanced.)
So what's the oldest surviving form of art we have? Paintings of animals. They don't look dumb, either. Often they're powerful, but not deadly -- bison, horses, hyenas -- and sometimes have striking facial expressions. A lot of our ancestors worshipped animals, or told stories in which gods took animal form. The people who got us to this point tamed dogs and horses, used every part of the buffalo, declared any number of random species sacred. When people were actually living off what they could catch, when that "food chain" stuff you were talking about was actually relevant, they by and large treated animals with respect. To do otherwise, especially when there's no cost to you but convenience or the loss of a whim, is to act like the kind of animal you mistakenly think all animals are. Except that most animals, like most humans, only kill for food.
Finally: you need to accept the ways you yourself are like other animals, because they're never going to go away, even when you are largely the boss of yourself. They're not terrible. Everybody has them. Some of them are quite lovable, and even the terrifying ones are at least interesting, and will trouble you less if you don't hate yourself for having them. Do yourself a favor and read about chimpanzee politics.
posted by Adventurer at 2:27 AM on October 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
Setting aside the fact that we don't really know how smart certain sea mammals are, if you're going to say "humans can make animals suffer any degree of pain for the slightest of reasons" on account of these criteria alone, what do you personally do with seriously developmentally disabled or brain-damaged humans who are not, technically, smarter than chimpanzees? What about the profoundly autistic, who don't make art? I'm assuming that art-making is what you're talking about when you refer to "the part of us that is (im)mortal," as most religious folk take a kinder view toward animals. (Although it does sound like you're getting that "dumb beast" stuff out of King James or something. It's not very nuanced.)
So what's the oldest surviving form of art we have? Paintings of animals. They don't look dumb, either. Often they're powerful, but not deadly -- bison, horses, hyenas -- and sometimes have striking facial expressions. A lot of our ancestors worshipped animals, or told stories in which gods took animal form. The people who got us to this point tamed dogs and horses, used every part of the buffalo, declared any number of random species sacred. When people were actually living off what they could catch, when that "food chain" stuff you were talking about was actually relevant, they by and large treated animals with respect. To do otherwise, especially when there's no cost to you but convenience or the loss of a whim, is to act like the kind of animal you mistakenly think all animals are. Except that most animals, like most humans, only kill for food.
Finally: you need to accept the ways you yourself are like other animals, because they're never going to go away, even when you are largely the boss of yourself. They're not terrible. Everybody has them. Some of them are quite lovable, and even the terrifying ones are at least interesting, and will trouble you less if you don't hate yourself for having them. Do yourself a favor and read about chimpanzee politics.
posted by Adventurer at 2:27 AM on October 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
You are reminding me a bit of my coworker. If someone says it is hot today, he'll tell you how it is cold for this time of year; if you tell him that you like Bob Dylan, he'll tell you why Dylan sucks. He has this compulsion to be "controversial" and always pick an oppositional point of view. The first time or two is kind of funny, and after that it's just a huge drag.
So if all your friends are vegans and you keep meeting militant animal rights people at shows, of course it's oppositional to be all "kill the whales!" But if you were spending all your time with stereotypical rednecks who were making jokes about wiping out endangered species, I could see you poking at them by taking an opposite stance.
The point here, of course, is what is your goal? Is it to get quick and easy reactions out of people? If so, you are doing great as-is, no need to change anything. And there are (a few) people out there who enjoy that, so as long as you hang out mostly with them you are golden. Or (as it sounds like), is your goal to start making deeper and stronger connections with people? If that's the case, and you are hoping to form friendships and make relationships, then empathy and understanding is going to get you miles further than cheap LULZ ever will.
It's a lot harder, and unlike lulzy ironic detachment you risk getting your heart broken. But that's life, and seriously you can't have it both ways. Both paths are ok, but only one of them is going to make you the guy people enjoy hanging out with.
posted by Forktine at 6:22 AM on October 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
So if all your friends are vegans and you keep meeting militant animal rights people at shows, of course it's oppositional to be all "kill the whales!" But if you were spending all your time with stereotypical rednecks who were making jokes about wiping out endangered species, I could see you poking at them by taking an opposite stance.
The point here, of course, is what is your goal? Is it to get quick and easy reactions out of people? If so, you are doing great as-is, no need to change anything. And there are (a few) people out there who enjoy that, so as long as you hang out mostly with them you are golden. Or (as it sounds like), is your goal to start making deeper and stronger connections with people? If that's the case, and you are hoping to form friendships and make relationships, then empathy and understanding is going to get you miles further than cheap LULZ ever will.
It's a lot harder, and unlike lulzy ironic detachment you risk getting your heart broken. But that's life, and seriously you can't have it both ways. Both paths are ok, but only one of them is going to make you the guy people enjoy hanging out with.
posted by Forktine at 6:22 AM on October 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
Okay, now I don't know if this is an epic troll or what, but if your online persona in other fora or RL does this "how do I deal with the way I feel about X?" and then "X is not worthy of my time because of its worthlessness!" kind of thing, you're not going to get very far in interpersonal relationships. At best, it seems like a lack of self-control or hypocritical; at worst manipulative and jerky. People who care about honesty in relationships are not going to spend time with people they don't feel they can trust. I think you really need to pull back from being knee-jerky about your pet peeves and look at the deeper messages you are sending people. After the carriage horse thread, I really have no idea why you posted this Ask, and am wondering why I bothered answering. This might be happening to you re: relationships in real life as well.
posted by oneirodynia at 9:17 AM on October 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by oneirodynia at 9:17 AM on October 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Something else that helped with her was watching documentaries on them and seeing, basically, that dogs are designed to be the perfect companion. Dogs Decoded was the name of one I remember, but there were a couple I was watching just cause, hey, dogs. Maybe learning some of their behaviors and body language would help you, too, since it'd make them easier to read? With the wife, I was able to go "The reason he's growling at you is he's protective of his food and you're right by it" or "When he's nosing under your hands and giving you sad dog eyes, he wants you to pet him." Just knowing how they think and react demystified them a lot for her.
Cats are a bit simpler mainly because they're smaller and less intimidating. They want food and attention on their terms and a bit of biting and scratching in a playful fashion (not drawing blood or much blood, anyway) is a way of showing affection. They're also evil, dog supremacy forever.
So we have everything in the open, do you dislike them because they're weird and alien and you haven't been around them much or did you have a bad experience? I think the OKCupid people would be understanding if, I don't know, you got bitten by a dog at a young age rather than just not liking them.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 12:39 AM on October 24, 2011