Am I not allowed to wear hoop earrings?
October 10, 2011 8:21 PM Subscribe
It would seem I’ve been friend dumped with no explanation. Can I save this friendship? Should I? If I can, what’s the best way to go about it?
I’ve been friends with Rachel for six years. We are neighbors, worked in the same industry and share the same circle of friends. Just over a month ago, she stopped speaking to me. I only have one theory as to why, because up until that point, things were seemingly fine. We hung out a lot, helped each other out with things like job applications and home projects, and shared pretty intimate details of our lives with one another (job issues, financial issues, relationship issues—all the sorts of things you only discuss with really close friends). I apologize for the length, but since this is anonymous, I wanted to err on the side of too many details rather than too few.
My theory? So ridiculous that I can’t believe it is right, but it’s the only intervening variable between talking and not talking. A few months back, Rachel befriended another neighbor, Bob. She latched on to him pretty fast and started hanging out with him all of the time. Late night shopping trips, date nights to movies, etc. (There is no romantic element here: Rachel is in a long-term relationship and Bob is both in a long-term relationship and gay.) She really connected with him and started introducing him into our pretty tight circle of friends. Bob is a lot of fun, so we all took to him immediately. He started hanging out with the group and individuals within the group independent of Rachel. So far, so good. We were all still friends. Then, one evening, Bob and I had run out to grab dinner and he spur of the moment asked me if I wanted to accompany him on a trip to a home goods store to get a couple of things he’d been needing. Since I wasn’t doing anything else, I said sure and we were on our merry way. We got back, set up the new stuff and called Rachel. She eventually came up and started making passive-aggressive comments to me. “Oh, how is that project you’re working on going, Kate? Pretty well, I guess, if you had time to go on errands with Bob.” This was the last conversation I had with her.
The next day, Bob told me that after I left, she “went ripshit” on him about the trip out to the home goods store. How dare he pick up the things without consulting her, why wasn’t she included, etc. She said nothing to me. When he told her that he and I were hanging out, she said she wouldn’t come by until he could “tell [her] when [I’m] gone.” I guess I can understand her being a little hurt/irked that she wasn’t asked, and I was more than willing to apologize for the oversight, but I never got the opportunity.
I gave her a couple of days to cool off, then tried calling. She didn’t answer, so I left a message saying that it seemed like she was upset about something and that maybe it would be better to discuss it rather than dancing around it, please call me back when you have a moment and I hope to talk to you soon. No response. A few days later I learned through a mutual friend that the house she and her boyfriend have been rehabbing got hit by a disaster. I sent a text saying how sorry I was and to please let me know if there was anything I could do to help. No response. Since then, she’s hosted several events where she’s invited everyone in our social circle… except me. Nothing major, just a movie night and seeing an old friend who was visiting from out of town, but still, being deliberately excluded is no fun and really upset me.
Our other friends are pretty baffled/disgusted by her behavior, but don’t have an actual explanation for it. Apparently in the last week she told Bob that she and I “are not friends anymore.” Again, still with no actual conversation between us.
A few more perhaps relevant details:
• Her life kind of sucks right now. She’s been unemployed for over two years, is relying on her parents for all of her living expenses and had her dream job opportunity yanked out from under her a few months ago. She’s been with her boyfriend (whom she does love) for four years, living together for all but a few months of that time. There are issues in the relationship including the aforementioned house (it’s been in the process of being rehabbed for longer than they’ve been dating) and frustration with no movement on the getting engaged/married front. She also has assorted health issues and has gained quite a lot of weight in the past few years which she is very unhappy about. In that same period of time, I’ve lost quite a bit of weight (though am no closer to being not single, much less married, than I was six months ago), and I was also out of work for about six months this year.
• Rachel was also used to being the queen bee of the group. She did most of the hosting/organizing of a lot of our group hanging out activities and was something of the center of our group of friends. In the past year or so, that has changed, both because she has withdrawn quite a bit (though we still reach out to include her in activities) and we’ve fallen into different dynamics of hanging out independently/in a less organized fashion as we’ve all gotten busy or had various life changes. However, I met these people through Rachel when she and I started to get to know each other six years ago, so they were her friends first.
• She suffers from depression, and there are (or at least were when last I saw her) signs of that depression entering into a more sustained/serious level. From our pre-cone of silence conversations, most of her energy was expended focusing on her physical health and her boyfriend’s physical and mental health with very little attention on her own mental well-being.
• She’s mentioned on numerous occasions that when she’s done with somebody, she’s done with them and I know of several people with whom she used to be close who are now no longer in her life.
Basically, this all boils down to her seeming to be jealous of the friendship I’ve formed with Bob on my own, but to end a six year friendship over that seems strange to me to say the least; I'm sure there is more going on, but that's the only precipitating event I can point to. I’ve tried reaching out only to be rebuffed, but I’m reluctant to just let six years of friendship go down the drain. At the same time, I don’t want to let her think a dynamic where I am the supplicant seeking the favor of her friendship is okay. Despite all of the above, she was one of my closest friends. We shared a lot and had a lot of fun with each other. We helped each other out of tight spots, spent hours just hanging out and bullshitting, all the stuff that friendship entails. She can be a lot of fun, is generous with her time and help, is smart and funny and can be very charming. She can also be conversationally selfish/very me-focused and is a very implacable and has a very black or white/all or nothing view of the world.
Do I reach out again? If so, what’s the best method? Phone? Email? Hoping to run into her since we live so close so she can’t ignore the communication? And is there a good way to open or frame this? She’s pretty good at just shutting down and not hearing what she doesn’t want to hear. The reason that I am taking this to the AskMetafiltariat is 1) I really don’t know what to do from here and 2) since we share the same friends, I don’t want any of them to feel uncomfortable or put in the middle in any way.
We are both in our early 30s, a time when I thought these sorts of juvenile shenanigans would be long behind us.
Throwaway email: toastedstrudel@gmail.com.
I’ve been friends with Rachel for six years. We are neighbors, worked in the same industry and share the same circle of friends. Just over a month ago, she stopped speaking to me. I only have one theory as to why, because up until that point, things were seemingly fine. We hung out a lot, helped each other out with things like job applications and home projects, and shared pretty intimate details of our lives with one another (job issues, financial issues, relationship issues—all the sorts of things you only discuss with really close friends). I apologize for the length, but since this is anonymous, I wanted to err on the side of too many details rather than too few.
My theory? So ridiculous that I can’t believe it is right, but it’s the only intervening variable between talking and not talking. A few months back, Rachel befriended another neighbor, Bob. She latched on to him pretty fast and started hanging out with him all of the time. Late night shopping trips, date nights to movies, etc. (There is no romantic element here: Rachel is in a long-term relationship and Bob is both in a long-term relationship and gay.) She really connected with him and started introducing him into our pretty tight circle of friends. Bob is a lot of fun, so we all took to him immediately. He started hanging out with the group and individuals within the group independent of Rachel. So far, so good. We were all still friends. Then, one evening, Bob and I had run out to grab dinner and he spur of the moment asked me if I wanted to accompany him on a trip to a home goods store to get a couple of things he’d been needing. Since I wasn’t doing anything else, I said sure and we were on our merry way. We got back, set up the new stuff and called Rachel. She eventually came up and started making passive-aggressive comments to me. “Oh, how is that project you’re working on going, Kate? Pretty well, I guess, if you had time to go on errands with Bob.” This was the last conversation I had with her.
The next day, Bob told me that after I left, she “went ripshit” on him about the trip out to the home goods store. How dare he pick up the things without consulting her, why wasn’t she included, etc. She said nothing to me. When he told her that he and I were hanging out, she said she wouldn’t come by until he could “tell [her] when [I’m] gone.” I guess I can understand her being a little hurt/irked that she wasn’t asked, and I was more than willing to apologize for the oversight, but I never got the opportunity.
I gave her a couple of days to cool off, then tried calling. She didn’t answer, so I left a message saying that it seemed like she was upset about something and that maybe it would be better to discuss it rather than dancing around it, please call me back when you have a moment and I hope to talk to you soon. No response. A few days later I learned through a mutual friend that the house she and her boyfriend have been rehabbing got hit by a disaster. I sent a text saying how sorry I was and to please let me know if there was anything I could do to help. No response. Since then, she’s hosted several events where she’s invited everyone in our social circle… except me. Nothing major, just a movie night and seeing an old friend who was visiting from out of town, but still, being deliberately excluded is no fun and really upset me.
Our other friends are pretty baffled/disgusted by her behavior, but don’t have an actual explanation for it. Apparently in the last week she told Bob that she and I “are not friends anymore.” Again, still with no actual conversation between us.
A few more perhaps relevant details:
• Her life kind of sucks right now. She’s been unemployed for over two years, is relying on her parents for all of her living expenses and had her dream job opportunity yanked out from under her a few months ago. She’s been with her boyfriend (whom she does love) for four years, living together for all but a few months of that time. There are issues in the relationship including the aforementioned house (it’s been in the process of being rehabbed for longer than they’ve been dating) and frustration with no movement on the getting engaged/married front. She also has assorted health issues and has gained quite a lot of weight in the past few years which she is very unhappy about. In that same period of time, I’ve lost quite a bit of weight (though am no closer to being not single, much less married, than I was six months ago), and I was also out of work for about six months this year.
• Rachel was also used to being the queen bee of the group. She did most of the hosting/organizing of a lot of our group hanging out activities and was something of the center of our group of friends. In the past year or so, that has changed, both because she has withdrawn quite a bit (though we still reach out to include her in activities) and we’ve fallen into different dynamics of hanging out independently/in a less organized fashion as we’ve all gotten busy or had various life changes. However, I met these people through Rachel when she and I started to get to know each other six years ago, so they were her friends first.
• She suffers from depression, and there are (or at least were when last I saw her) signs of that depression entering into a more sustained/serious level. From our pre-cone of silence conversations, most of her energy was expended focusing on her physical health and her boyfriend’s physical and mental health with very little attention on her own mental well-being.
• She’s mentioned on numerous occasions that when she’s done with somebody, she’s done with them and I know of several people with whom she used to be close who are now no longer in her life.
Basically, this all boils down to her seeming to be jealous of the friendship I’ve formed with Bob on my own, but to end a six year friendship over that seems strange to me to say the least; I'm sure there is more going on, but that's the only precipitating event I can point to. I’ve tried reaching out only to be rebuffed, but I’m reluctant to just let six years of friendship go down the drain. At the same time, I don’t want to let her think a dynamic where I am the supplicant seeking the favor of her friendship is okay. Despite all of the above, she was one of my closest friends. We shared a lot and had a lot of fun with each other. We helped each other out of tight spots, spent hours just hanging out and bullshitting, all the stuff that friendship entails. She can be a lot of fun, is generous with her time and help, is smart and funny and can be very charming. She can also be conversationally selfish/very me-focused and is a very implacable and has a very black or white/all or nothing view of the world.
Do I reach out again? If so, what’s the best method? Phone? Email? Hoping to run into her since we live so close so she can’t ignore the communication? And is there a good way to open or frame this? She’s pretty good at just shutting down and not hearing what she doesn’t want to hear. The reason that I am taking this to the AskMetafiltariat is 1) I really don’t know what to do from here and 2) since we share the same friends, I don’t want any of them to feel uncomfortable or put in the middle in any way.
We are both in our early 30s, a time when I thought these sorts of juvenile shenanigans would be long behind us.
Throwaway email: toastedstrudel@gmail.com.
What this boils down to is: Rachel. Is. Crazy. Total crazypants. You have been unpleasantly surprised and shunned over something that would not be a big deal to anyone remotely sane. She has friend dumped you, but... you are probably better off if this is how she behaves about a minor fucking thing like this. And apparently this is what she pulls on everyone if they don't make her feel 100% queen bee special.
I know it's socially awkward to be on the outs with her, but... she's crazypants. You're better off, because crazypants is gonna continue to act that way.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:38 PM on October 10, 2011 [22 favorites]
I know it's socially awkward to be on the outs with her, but... she's crazypants. You're better off, because crazypants is gonna continue to act that way.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:38 PM on October 10, 2011 [22 favorites]
This sucks and I'm sorry. The short version of the answer to your question is, no, you can't save it. The long answer is, yes, it's salvageable, but not by you.
Rachel has decided, for whatever reason she's decided, to make you the outlet for relieving her negative stress. Or, to put it another way, she's made you her scapegoat. There's not much you can do about that, other than what you're doing, which is commiserating with mutual friends and hoping this whole thing blows over.
I'm not going to tell you whether you should keep trying to contact her or not, because I know from experience that you'll do whatever is in your heart regardless of advice. But I also know from experience that the more you contact someone without reply, the harder it becomes to forgive them if/when they do get back in touch, because the pain of those rejections piles up. So you might be able to force the issue, but more likely you'll just create a wall that takes much more effort to break down.
I'd recommend taking this time, contact or no, to decide if you feel like this is an out of character demented freakout or if Rachel has shown you a similar side with other friends who were not you. If the former, I'd wait until she comes to her senses, presumably with an effusive apology. If the latter, I'd decide whether this drama is acceptable in your life.
posted by Errant at 8:39 PM on October 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
Rachel has decided, for whatever reason she's decided, to make you the outlet for relieving her negative stress. Or, to put it another way, she's made you her scapegoat. There's not much you can do about that, other than what you're doing, which is commiserating with mutual friends and hoping this whole thing blows over.
I'm not going to tell you whether you should keep trying to contact her or not, because I know from experience that you'll do whatever is in your heart regardless of advice. But I also know from experience that the more you contact someone without reply, the harder it becomes to forgive them if/when they do get back in touch, because the pain of those rejections piles up. So you might be able to force the issue, but more likely you'll just create a wall that takes much more effort to break down.
I'd recommend taking this time, contact or no, to decide if you feel like this is an out of character demented freakout or if Rachel has shown you a similar side with other friends who were not you. If the former, I'd wait until she comes to her senses, presumably with an effusive apology. If the latter, I'd decide whether this drama is acceptable in your life.
posted by Errant at 8:39 PM on October 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
When someone does what Rachel is doing there really isn't anything more that you can do. You did reach out. Unless you feel that you owe her an apology--which it doesn't sound like you do--the ball is in her court. People do this sometimes. The seeing the world in b/w and dropping people are methods she's known to use--it's not personal. I know that doesn't make this feel any better--but it's her, not you.
posted by marimeko at 8:43 PM on October 10, 2011
posted by marimeko at 8:43 PM on October 10, 2011
No, don't reach out again.
Jenfullmoon is absolutely right. The real issue is how to remain friends with your mutual friends; a partial answer is to tell them you don't want to make things awkward for them.
posted by J. Wilson at 8:44 PM on October 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
Jenfullmoon is absolutely right. The real issue is how to remain friends with your mutual friends; a partial answer is to tell them you don't want to make things awkward for them.
posted by J. Wilson at 8:44 PM on October 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
Just reading this left me irritated and exhausted. Why do you want to be friends with her again? I would put my energy into other things.
posted by unannihilated at 8:59 PM on October 10, 2011 [19 favorites]
posted by unannihilated at 8:59 PM on October 10, 2011 [19 favorites]
It's not about you. The most salient parts of your description are "Her life kind of sucks right now." and "She suffers from depression." I think those are the best explanations for her behavior. That's not to say that behaving like this is excusable, but it is to say that there's not much you can do about it. I'd wait for her to come back to you. Which may not happen, but if it doesn't, it seems like a small loss.
posted by grouse at 9:09 PM on October 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by grouse at 9:09 PM on October 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
Sooner or later, the crazy always comes out. This took 6 years, but viola, here it is. I would not contact her for a few weeks. Just maintain your friendship with the others. If there is an event where you are both there, be nice and see if she wants to talk. If not, stay away. The only thing I see that can repair this is either time or the intervention of a mutual friend.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:10 PM on October 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:10 PM on October 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
First of all, I love your coining of the word "AskMetafiltariat" - someone tell me if this is a first!
I have a great new friend in my apartment building who told me last Friday night she couldn't stop by because, "I'm in front of the TV, Vegetable Style!" So thanks for your creativity there. On par!
I mention this friend because it's often bad JuJu to make friends where you live, and this friend is pretty impressive and the first time in years I've felt OK crossing that boundary.
----
You are so super cool and I urge you to drop this. Rachel just isn't in a good place. You can't help the situation or change her. The friendship has run the course. Happens. You are not not not The Bad Guy here. Really.
----
I picked up on this:
"... I don’t want to let her think a dynamic where I am the supplicant seeking the favor of her friendship is okay."
I wish I could tell you in how many worlds the way you reached out was TOTALLY NORMAL and the way she rebuffed you was, as you astutely noted, juvenile.
Again, my old saying... Happy People Don't Do Bad Things.
I know she has her good side. But you are solid here. Hold your head up and let this go.
---
I'll also tell you that like her, when I am done with you, you're dead to me. The difference is that even at my lowest points in my emotional life, I've never felt jealousy. It just isn't my thing.
Jealousy fucks people up. Stay away. Stay away.
You're good. Carry on, happily and with joy in your life. You're fine here.
posted by jbenben at 9:20 PM on October 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
I have a great new friend in my apartment building who told me last Friday night she couldn't stop by because, "I'm in front of the TV, Vegetable Style!" So thanks for your creativity there. On par!
I mention this friend because it's often bad JuJu to make friends where you live, and this friend is pretty impressive and the first time in years I've felt OK crossing that boundary.
----
You are so super cool and I urge you to drop this. Rachel just isn't in a good place. You can't help the situation or change her. The friendship has run the course. Happens. You are not not not The Bad Guy here. Really.
----
I picked up on this:
"... I don’t want to let her think a dynamic where I am the supplicant seeking the favor of her friendship is okay."
I wish I could tell you in how many worlds the way you reached out was TOTALLY NORMAL and the way she rebuffed you was, as you astutely noted, juvenile.
Again, my old saying... Happy People Don't Do Bad Things.
I know she has her good side. But you are solid here. Hold your head up and let this go.
---
I'll also tell you that like her, when I am done with you, you're dead to me. The difference is that even at my lowest points in my emotional life, I've never felt jealousy. It just isn't my thing.
Jealousy fucks people up. Stay away. Stay away.
You're good. Carry on, happily and with joy in your life. You're fine here.
posted by jbenben at 9:20 PM on October 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
To me, this sounds a lot like a friend of mine, I'll call her L. She has a male friend, who is in a committed relationship and gay and has adopted kids, and she is ridiculously possessive of him. Like crazy girlfriend possessive. If any of his other female friends gets to watch their kids or spend time with him without L being invited/present, L becomes extremely jealous. She tries to figure out why SHE wasn't the one watching the kids, and that something must be wrong with her, etc. etc. It is absolutely EXHAUSTING to listen to it. I would not reach out to this person. Stay friends with the mutual friends, and be glad you got away from the crazy.
posted by bolognius maximus at 9:21 PM on October 10, 2011
posted by bolognius maximus at 9:21 PM on October 10, 2011
Her life kind of sucks right now. She’s been unemployed for over two years, is relying on her parents for all of her living expenses and had her dream job opportunity yanked out from under her a few months ago.
I have been in this situation, and I have let friendships die because I've been in a bad place in my life. When it's happened to me, I've done something stupid like said something mean to a friend, then just not had the emotional energy or whatever to apologize and move on. I can pretty much guarantee that this is about her, not about you.
I'm not saying it's not her fault; it certainly is. But the fact is that her own life seems to be in rough shape and she's letting herself take it out on her friends. (It's easier to be mad at your friend for a dumb slight then to be mad at yourself for not being able to find work. Seriously, I've been there).
If you think this is a friendship worth saving, leave the door open a crack for her. Leave her another phone message, maybe apologize to her (even though you and I know you have nothing to apologize for), tell her you love her and that you hope she'll get in touch sometime. Then just leave it. Hopefully she'll come around and apologize when she's in a better headspace, and if she doesn't then that's on her. As for your other friends, proceed as normal. If she doesn't want to see you, let her stay home.
Some people on here will say that making an effort to resume the friendship just shows you're a pushover. This is not true. It shows you're the bigger person. If this kind of behaviour keeps up consistently, then all bets are off and she's not worth your time. But it sounds like this is the first time it's happened with her, and I think she deserves the benefit of the doubt.
Rachel. Is. Crazy. Total crazypants.
Sooner or later, the crazy always comes out.
These are easy things to write when it's about strangers on the internet. Maybe you would write of your friend as crazypants because of one bad incident in a 6 year friendship, but I know that my friends are worth more to me than that and I'm thankful that I'm worth more than that to my friends. I think it's entirely possible for you to be open to being friends with this woman again without buying in to any drama. Good luck.
posted by auto-correct at 9:21 PM on October 10, 2011 [10 favorites]
I have been in this situation, and I have let friendships die because I've been in a bad place in my life. When it's happened to me, I've done something stupid like said something mean to a friend, then just not had the emotional energy or whatever to apologize and move on. I can pretty much guarantee that this is about her, not about you.
I'm not saying it's not her fault; it certainly is. But the fact is that her own life seems to be in rough shape and she's letting herself take it out on her friends. (It's easier to be mad at your friend for a dumb slight then to be mad at yourself for not being able to find work. Seriously, I've been there).
If you think this is a friendship worth saving, leave the door open a crack for her. Leave her another phone message, maybe apologize to her (even though you and I know you have nothing to apologize for), tell her you love her and that you hope she'll get in touch sometime. Then just leave it. Hopefully she'll come around and apologize when she's in a better headspace, and if she doesn't then that's on her. As for your other friends, proceed as normal. If she doesn't want to see you, let her stay home.
Some people on here will say that making an effort to resume the friendship just shows you're a pushover. This is not true. It shows you're the bigger person. If this kind of behaviour keeps up consistently, then all bets are off and she's not worth your time. But it sounds like this is the first time it's happened with her, and I think she deserves the benefit of the doubt.
Rachel. Is. Crazy. Total crazypants.
Sooner or later, the crazy always comes out.
These are easy things to write when it's about strangers on the internet. Maybe you would write of your friend as crazypants because of one bad incident in a 6 year friendship, but I know that my friends are worth more to me than that and I'm thankful that I'm worth more than that to my friends. I think it's entirely possible for you to be open to being friends with this woman again without buying in to any drama. Good luck.
posted by auto-correct at 9:21 PM on October 10, 2011 [10 favorites]
I had a similar thing happen to me about 8 years ago. Different circumstances, of course, in my case we had a minor bicker about something political (we were both on the same side!) while out with a group of friends. It wasn't even an argument, just an awkward strained moment, and by the end of the evening, I thought everything was fine. Only then she never, ever returned another of my phone calls. I'm not even sure for sure it was the bickering that caused the rift!
Like Rachel, my friend N had done this with lots of friends, and in the two years she and I were friends, I saw her freeze someone out, and also saw her re-friend two former friends whom she had cut out in the past, both over things I don't think a reasonable person would find an issue. (Including a friend she'd had for over ten years whom she dumped because that friend did not take the whole day off work to attend N's grandmother's funeral. The friend took the morning off for the funeral, didn't go to the cemetery, worked the afternoon, then re-joined N's grieving family after work.)
So, when she didn't return my first phone call, I already had a feeling the jig was up. After the second one, I was sure, but I kept trying for two weeks, then gave it up. I moved away and didn't see her for years, but moved back four years ago and have run into her a few times since. We don't run in the same circle, but our circles are like a Venn diagram.
All this sob story of my own to say that I completely understand how hard and painful it can be to lose a friend this way. N and I were fast friends and thick as thieves. Despite the crummy ending, it was one of the best friendships of my life and all this time later, I still get a pang when I think of her.
If Rachel is like N and eventually lets some people back in her life, and she means that much to you, I'd say give it another shot. Reach out through friends if you think it will help and not make things worse. But if she doesn't respond, then I'm with J. Wilson, it's time to turn your energy towards maintaining friendships with your mutual friends.
posted by looli at 9:34 PM on October 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
Like Rachel, my friend N had done this with lots of friends, and in the two years she and I were friends, I saw her freeze someone out, and also saw her re-friend two former friends whom she had cut out in the past, both over things I don't think a reasonable person would find an issue. (Including a friend she'd had for over ten years whom she dumped because that friend did not take the whole day off work to attend N's grandmother's funeral. The friend took the morning off for the funeral, didn't go to the cemetery, worked the afternoon, then re-joined N's grieving family after work.)
So, when she didn't return my first phone call, I already had a feeling the jig was up. After the second one, I was sure, but I kept trying for two weeks, then gave it up. I moved away and didn't see her for years, but moved back four years ago and have run into her a few times since. We don't run in the same circle, but our circles are like a Venn diagram.
All this sob story of my own to say that I completely understand how hard and painful it can be to lose a friend this way. N and I were fast friends and thick as thieves. Despite the crummy ending, it was one of the best friendships of my life and all this time later, I still get a pang when I think of her.
If Rachel is like N and eventually lets some people back in her life, and she means that much to you, I'd say give it another shot. Reach out through friends if you think it will help and not make things worse. But if she doesn't respond, then I'm with J. Wilson, it's time to turn your energy towards maintaining friendships with your mutual friends.
posted by looli at 9:34 PM on October 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
Assuming that she lashed out because she's unhappy with her life, jealous of yours, and got a little panicked anxious that she was "losing" Bob to you, there are two things that can happen --
1) With a little time and distance from you, she will calm down and, if you stay in loose touch, she'll come back to being friends with you, especially if you kinda let her pick up where you left off without her having to strain to bridge the gap. (This happened to me with a friend who miscarried right when I had my first baby -- she just couldn't handle being around me at that time, and while it *did* hurt my feelings despite not at all being about me, I totally understood. She disappeared with no word, but I could put it together on my own. 15 months later she carried a pregnancy to term and I sent her a congrats card and she called me rather sheepishly and started to apologize about it and I was like, dude, don't even, I have food for your freezer and a onesie for your baby to drop off, let's move on.)
2) She won't. She'll stay mad or be too ashamed to bridge the gap.
In either case, the best thing for YOU to do is give her a little time and space, and, with your mutual friends, be clear (through your actions) that you do not bring the drama. You'll go where you're invited, you don't issue ultimatums about "if X is there, I won't go," you are pleasant and polite when you see her even if she's being a bitch. When I've been an observer to this sort of dynamic, it's always been the NON-drama person that I ended up staying friends with. I'm too old to play high school clique games; I invite everyone I want to invite and people can show up or not show up as they please. (If your group dynamic is really unhealthy, or if she's a very dominating queen bee, I know this could end with you ostracized to the fringes, but you're an adult and you can make that call.)
The one thing that suggests to me a possibility of "crazypants" is: "She’s mentioned on numerous occasions that when she’s done with somebody, she’s done with them and I know of several people with whom she used to be close who are now no longer in her life."
It's possible she's just really proactive about cutting out negative relationships, but -- I knew one girl ("Stacey") who did this sort of "friend dropping" you're talking about (this was one where I was the observer and ended up still friends with the non-drama person), and after we all got friend-dumped by Stacey, a mutual friend said, "You know what I thought was so weird about her from the first time I met her? She had NO friends from earlier in her life. No high school friends still hanging around, no college friends, no friends from earlier jobs, no-one who grew up on her street, no close cousins -- she wasn't even speaking to her sister. Maybe that should have been a sign." She was right -- I have now learned to be super-wary of people who have NO friends from earlier in their life. I mean, people drift out of your life, people move around, even the most functional people sometimes have fallings out, but if there's seriously no one from prior to this phase of your life that you can speak affectionately of? Probably you are a crazy-ass drama queen who blows up every relationship in your life at predictable intervals when things are getting boring and not enough about you. And then probably you make yourself the martyr in the stories. So if your friend makes a habit of that, it might be over for good.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:42 PM on October 10, 2011 [9 favorites]
1) With a little time and distance from you, she will calm down and, if you stay in loose touch, she'll come back to being friends with you, especially if you kinda let her pick up where you left off without her having to strain to bridge the gap. (This happened to me with a friend who miscarried right when I had my first baby -- she just couldn't handle being around me at that time, and while it *did* hurt my feelings despite not at all being about me, I totally understood. She disappeared with no word, but I could put it together on my own. 15 months later she carried a pregnancy to term and I sent her a congrats card and she called me rather sheepishly and started to apologize about it and I was like, dude, don't even, I have food for your freezer and a onesie for your baby to drop off, let's move on.)
2) She won't. She'll stay mad or be too ashamed to bridge the gap.
In either case, the best thing for YOU to do is give her a little time and space, and, with your mutual friends, be clear (through your actions) that you do not bring the drama. You'll go where you're invited, you don't issue ultimatums about "if X is there, I won't go," you are pleasant and polite when you see her even if she's being a bitch. When I've been an observer to this sort of dynamic, it's always been the NON-drama person that I ended up staying friends with. I'm too old to play high school clique games; I invite everyone I want to invite and people can show up or not show up as they please. (If your group dynamic is really unhealthy, or if she's a very dominating queen bee, I know this could end with you ostracized to the fringes, but you're an adult and you can make that call.)
The one thing that suggests to me a possibility of "crazypants" is: "She’s mentioned on numerous occasions that when she’s done with somebody, she’s done with them and I know of several people with whom she used to be close who are now no longer in her life."
It's possible she's just really proactive about cutting out negative relationships, but -- I knew one girl ("Stacey") who did this sort of "friend dropping" you're talking about (this was one where I was the observer and ended up still friends with the non-drama person), and after we all got friend-dumped by Stacey, a mutual friend said, "You know what I thought was so weird about her from the first time I met her? She had NO friends from earlier in her life. No high school friends still hanging around, no college friends, no friends from earlier jobs, no-one who grew up on her street, no close cousins -- she wasn't even speaking to her sister. Maybe that should have been a sign." She was right -- I have now learned to be super-wary of people who have NO friends from earlier in their life. I mean, people drift out of your life, people move around, even the most functional people sometimes have fallings out, but if there's seriously no one from prior to this phase of your life that you can speak affectionately of? Probably you are a crazy-ass drama queen who blows up every relationship in your life at predictable intervals when things are getting boring and not enough about you. And then probably you make yourself the martyr in the stories. So if your friend makes a habit of that, it might be over for good.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:42 PM on October 10, 2011 [9 favorites]
Let it go, definitely not worth it. She will no doubt burn through some other friends, too. Pro-tip: people who have lots horrible friendship break ups will probably break up with you, too.
I had a friend like this once. He and his wife had all these intense friendships with people, and then they would be cut off like that. I always wondered to a mutual friend of ours if our numbers would come up in the lotto one day. They came up about four years ago, and I've seen neither hide nor hair of him since. I should have been more emotionally cautious. The "breakup" was just a captious and inane as yours.
posted by smoke at 9:45 PM on October 10, 2011
I had a friend like this once. He and his wife had all these intense friendships with people, and then they would be cut off like that. I always wondered to a mutual friend of ours if our numbers would come up in the lotto one day. They came up about four years ago, and I've seen neither hide nor hair of him since. I should have been more emotionally cautious. The "breakup" was just a captious and inane as yours.
posted by smoke at 9:45 PM on October 10, 2011
I think she's overreacting. Not being asked to accompany someone on an errand isn't the same as not being invited to a party.
I would just say "hi" if you happen to run into her, and be civil when mutual friends host events.
posted by brujita at 10:35 PM on October 10, 2011
I would just say "hi" if you happen to run into her, and be civil when mutual friends host events.
posted by brujita at 10:35 PM on October 10, 2011
Having been CrazyPants Girl (cape sold separately) a time or two in the past... Some of the reasons I've ended friendships:
I thought I had reason to believe that they were dumping or about to dump me.
I became convinced that they were upset at me, but didn't know why, and started avoiding them because I didn't want to repeat whatever I had done and make things worse.
My feelings were hurt because I realized that I was always the one reaching out to initiate conversation or suggest spending time together and decided to keep to myself for a while in hopes that they would miss me and reach out.
I had feelings for the person but they weren't interested, so I went away because I didn't want to make them feel awkward.
They showed interest in someone they knew I had a thing for, or an ex I wasn't over yet showed interest in them.
I believed gossip about them, assuming the worst without bothering to ask and give them a chance to defend themselves.
the list goes on... its not always reasonable, and often at the time I wasn't even sure why I was so upset...
The upside is that in almost every case, I hoped that one day the other person would talk to me and we could become friends again... I just needed time.
I wouldn't reach out to her right now (unless maybe Bob is willing to bluntly ask her what you did wrong)... I'd give it a month or two maybe. Organize your own outings with friends so that she can't cut you out of their lives. Maybe in a couple of months invite her out as a gesture of goodwill. If she doesn't come, drop a note saying you hoped everything was okay and she had been missed.
If it doesn't work? Give it more time. Maybe wait until her birthday and drop by with a small gift. No large gestures, and don't supplicate yourself.. just let her know that you still consider her a friend.
posted by myShanon at 10:45 PM on October 10, 2011 [3 favorites]
I thought I had reason to believe that they were dumping or about to dump me.
I became convinced that they were upset at me, but didn't know why, and started avoiding them because I didn't want to repeat whatever I had done and make things worse.
My feelings were hurt because I realized that I was always the one reaching out to initiate conversation or suggest spending time together and decided to keep to myself for a while in hopes that they would miss me and reach out.
I had feelings for the person but they weren't interested, so I went away because I didn't want to make them feel awkward.
They showed interest in someone they knew I had a thing for, or an ex I wasn't over yet showed interest in them.
I believed gossip about them, assuming the worst without bothering to ask and give them a chance to defend themselves.
the list goes on... its not always reasonable, and often at the time I wasn't even sure why I was so upset...
The upside is that in almost every case, I hoped that one day the other person would talk to me and we could become friends again... I just needed time.
I wouldn't reach out to her right now (unless maybe Bob is willing to bluntly ask her what you did wrong)... I'd give it a month or two maybe. Organize your own outings with friends so that she can't cut you out of their lives. Maybe in a couple of months invite her out as a gesture of goodwill. If she doesn't come, drop a note saying you hoped everything was okay and she had been missed.
If it doesn't work? Give it more time. Maybe wait until her birthday and drop by with a small gift. No large gestures, and don't supplicate yourself.. just let her know that you still consider her a friend.
posted by myShanon at 10:45 PM on October 10, 2011 [3 favorites]
Please stop feeling you've done anything wrong..because it is putting you in the "one-down" position. She is feeling "one-up". Write her an email (with nothing in the subject line), telling her that you accept her decision to sever your relationship and that you agree with it. Include anything that you feel is fair to say (example: "I feel it was wrong of you to be angry with me over going to the store with Bob; I am not a mind-reader")...but it is very important not to write very much! Make your email 5 sentences maximum.
If you do this it will "even the score" and make you feel that you had something to say in the situation.
After hitting the send button, dust your hands off and feel good about being done with her.
posted by naplesyellow at 11:29 PM on October 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
If you do this it will "even the score" and make you feel that you had something to say in the situation.
After hitting the send button, dust your hands off and feel good about being done with her.
posted by naplesyellow at 11:29 PM on October 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
She sounds like way too much work. I think you've reached out to her already as much as is appropriate; you could try getting Bob (or your other mutual friends) to intervene on your behalf if you still want to salvage the friendship. Maybe you should also focus on keeping the friendship with the rest of your mutual circle alive, if she's the one organising all of the social events.
posted by FrereKhan at 1:18 AM on October 11, 2011
posted by FrereKhan at 1:18 AM on October 11, 2011
She mentioned a project you were working on? Have you ever told her you were too busy to hang out with her because of project? From your description, she hasn't had a problem with friends hanging out with Bob solo (assuming she knew about it) so there must be something more to it. From her comments I'd guess that at some time in the recent past, she's invited you out/over and you declined because you were busy with your project.
She may have gone "ripshit" at Bob for taking you and not her to run an errand but she hasn't cut him out of her life. You did no wrong, a friend asked you to help run an errand and you did, if it was something she and Bob had discussed doing together, you weren't to know that - if anyone (between the 2 of you) is at fault, its Bob. Although I'm quite surprised Bob hasn't kicked her to the curb- if I friend of mine told me I couldn't pick out stuff for my own home without consulting them, they would not be my friend for long.
I wouldn't bother reaching out to her, from the sounds of it, your mutual friends are on 'your side' and think she's a loon. They're not going to cut you out just so that Rachel can attend social events - it doesn't matter that they were her friends first. If she wants to cut you out of her life, she's essentially cutting her other friends out too. If you want to hang with Bob, do that, its her choice to sit at home and sulk waiting for you to leave.
Maybe one day one of your other friends will find out why she dumped you, she's going to have to come up with some reason why she declines every invite if you will also be there. It sounds like you have the sort of friends that wouldn't indulge her crazy and would tell you what she says.
posted by missmagenta at 1:31 AM on October 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
She may have gone "ripshit" at Bob for taking you and not her to run an errand but she hasn't cut him out of her life. You did no wrong, a friend asked you to help run an errand and you did, if it was something she and Bob had discussed doing together, you weren't to know that - if anyone (between the 2 of you) is at fault, its Bob. Although I'm quite surprised Bob hasn't kicked her to the curb- if I friend of mine told me I couldn't pick out stuff for my own home without consulting them, they would not be my friend for long.
I wouldn't bother reaching out to her, from the sounds of it, your mutual friends are on 'your side' and think she's a loon. They're not going to cut you out just so that Rachel can attend social events - it doesn't matter that they were her friends first. If she wants to cut you out of her life, she's essentially cutting her other friends out too. If you want to hang with Bob, do that, its her choice to sit at home and sulk waiting for you to leave.
Maybe one day one of your other friends will find out why she dumped you, she's going to have to come up with some reason why she declines every invite if you will also be there. It sounds like you have the sort of friends that wouldn't indulge her crazy and would tell you what she says.
posted by missmagenta at 1:31 AM on October 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
What would it look like it you both reconnected? Would you constantly be on guard watching for things that might set her off since such a little thing set her off before? Life's to damned short for thatm IMO.
I also wanted to chime in to tell you that I had my own Rachel too. There were 4 of us women who always got together and one by one, she stopped being friends with us. (I was #2 so the sting was lessened). She would just decide to go silent on one of us without warning. No explanation...nothing. Fast forward a couple years when I met my now neighbor and friend. She and I realized we both knew our "Rachel" and guess what? Rachel went suddenly silent on her too.
I say good riddance unless she comes back and sincerely apologizes with an understanding of what she did wrong. But in the meantime, don't have long conversations about it with mutual friends or get them involved in your drama. They will likely see what is going on and eventually side with you if you provide them with a drama free environment.
posted by murrey at 4:28 AM on October 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
I also wanted to chime in to tell you that I had my own Rachel too. There were 4 of us women who always got together and one by one, she stopped being friends with us. (I was #2 so the sting was lessened). She would just decide to go silent on one of us without warning. No explanation...nothing. Fast forward a couple years when I met my now neighbor and friend. She and I realized we both knew our "Rachel" and guess what? Rachel went suddenly silent on her too.
I say good riddance unless she comes back and sincerely apologizes with an understanding of what she did wrong. But in the meantime, don't have long conversations about it with mutual friends or get them involved in your drama. They will likely see what is going on and eventually side with you if you provide them with a drama free environment.
posted by murrey at 4:28 AM on October 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
I know you said she's in a relationship and Bob is gay, but it sounds to me like she's crushing on/in love with/hot for Bob and, in her [warped] viewpoint, you muscled in.
posted by JanetLand at 5:43 AM on October 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by JanetLand at 5:43 AM on October 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
She’s mentioned on numerous occasions that when she’s done with somebody, she’s done with them and I know of several people with whom she used to be close who are now no longer in her life.
When someone tells you something about themselves, believe them. She's done with you. This is a good thing for you, because nothing you've said about her screams Awesome Friend Material to me.
posted by crankylex at 6:52 AM on October 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
When someone tells you something about themselves, believe them. She's done with you. This is a good thing for you, because nothing you've said about her screams Awesome Friend Material to me.
posted by crankylex at 6:52 AM on October 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
I think that the advice given already is very good, however, I just wanted to add my experience as well.
I've had several "friendships" that ended oddly, ie: they just dropped off the planet. When it came down to it, the only consolment I could find in my mind is that these so-called friends were just using me. I wasn't the first person they'd used, and I (sadly) wouldn't be the last.
As much as it sucks now, you will find friends that don't use you in the future. And that's worth holding on to!
posted by camylanded at 9:01 AM on October 11, 2011
I've had several "friendships" that ended oddly, ie: they just dropped off the planet. When it came down to it, the only consolment I could find in my mind is that these so-called friends were just using me. I wasn't the first person they'd used, and I (sadly) wouldn't be the last.
As much as it sucks now, you will find friends that don't use you in the future. And that's worth holding on to!
posted by camylanded at 9:01 AM on October 11, 2011
On the one hand, if she is depressed and sees the negative side of every situation, she is probably closing off to people which is normal for a depressed person, and you should chill and let it go.
On the other hand, are you sure it's all her fault and she's just a mean girl? Really? I mean, I don't know, but could it be that you've made the rounds of your real-life friends to ask them the same questions - what's wrong with her, is she jealous, is she depressed, isn't her life messed up? And she doesn't appreciate it at all?
I've discovered over the years that out of my circle of friends the ones I've distanced myself from are the ones who:
- Talk sh!t about me behind my back, because they talk sh!t about other friends when they're not around.
- Constantly expect negative things and let me know it; if I get a new job, they make a disparaging comment about the place I'm working; if I get sick, they'll bring up the worst-case scenario; if I say I want to change something, they let me know they don't expect me to change.
posted by citron at 6:43 PM on October 11, 2011
On the other hand, are you sure it's all her fault and she's just a mean girl? Really? I mean, I don't know, but could it be that you've made the rounds of your real-life friends to ask them the same questions - what's wrong with her, is she jealous, is she depressed, isn't her life messed up? And she doesn't appreciate it at all?
I've discovered over the years that out of my circle of friends the ones I've distanced myself from are the ones who:
- Talk sh!t about me behind my back, because they talk sh!t about other friends when they're not around.
- Constantly expect negative things and let me know it; if I get a new job, they make a disparaging comment about the place I'm working; if I get sick, they'll bring up the worst-case scenario; if I say I want to change something, they let me know they don't expect me to change.
posted by citron at 6:43 PM on October 11, 2011
Jenfullmoon tells you "Rachel. Is. Crazy." She's never met her and only knows your side of the story (and there are always at least two sides), so ask yourself, how valuable is her statement - or anyone else's who takes it upon themselves to analyze Rachel.
Apart from that - when my best friend dropped me, I just carried on being pleasant when he was around (the fact he dropped me didn't change the fact that I like him), and gradually we're getting into more contact. If he did something horrible to me that would be different of course, but if he doesn't want to be with me - why should he be? Maybe he's having a tough time and can't talk about it; maybe I did something really horrible and never realised it, maybe maybe maybe. Who cares. Let your friend be herself. If you still like her, then like her for goodness sake; if you don't, then don't. If you expect people to be simple then try to be re-born as an ant next time round :-). Whatever, don't let these small things sadden you too much. Unfortunately there will be a great deal of truly deep sadness for most of us in life; grieve when it's time to grieve and for the rest of it, let it be what it is.
posted by nickji at 6:17 AM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
Apart from that - when my best friend dropped me, I just carried on being pleasant when he was around (the fact he dropped me didn't change the fact that I like him), and gradually we're getting into more contact. If he did something horrible to me that would be different of course, but if he doesn't want to be with me - why should he be? Maybe he's having a tough time and can't talk about it; maybe I did something really horrible and never realised it, maybe maybe maybe. Who cares. Let your friend be herself. If you still like her, then like her for goodness sake; if you don't, then don't. If you expect people to be simple then try to be re-born as an ant next time round :-). Whatever, don't let these small things sadden you too much. Unfortunately there will be a great deal of truly deep sadness for most of us in life; grieve when it's time to grieve and for the rest of it, let it be what it is.
posted by nickji at 6:17 AM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
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You have to really watch what you say with mutual friends. All of your astute but lengthy characterization of your friend and your description of her with all her faults makes me suspect that you'd be quite willing to vent to other people, maybe just in passing, that you think she's "depressed' or "unstable" or "you're worried about her" - if you're like me, you won't even remember saying it. Thing is, the mutual friend then tells her what you said about her, and she gets mad. This also explains the radio silence- if you 100% believe your friend said something unflattering about you to a mutual aquaintance, you really have no motivation to ever tell them you know this, and explain that it's why you stopped talking to them.
So, in sum: You are very aware of your friends faults. This probably came out around mutual aquaintances, maybe even via harmless or well-intentioned gossip. She heard about it, didn't react well.
Either that, or you've always been a little jealous of the friend's social circle and were purposefully trying to move in on her friends.
Or some other reason that was completely not your fault, who knows? Either way, this is not worth the drama. If you want her friendship, you're gonna have to suck it up and grovel and admit to yourself that you need her more than she needs you. If not, then cut it loose and forget it. Life's too short.
posted by Nixy at 8:31 PM on October 10, 2011 [18 favorites]