To Be (Safely) Clear
September 19, 2011 2:11 PM Subscribe
Our mover, licensed and bonded, turned out to be a criminal. He stole some of our things but even worse is that he's listed in the sexual offender directory. We're already warning others in our reviews but could/should we be more explicit?
We wrote, "Not recommended, very serious concerns including things missing. If you feel you must use them suggest doing your research first." Is this enough of a hint? When we spoke with his office manager, who is also a relative, she told us it was a case of being 18 with a 16-year old girlfriend, as if that excused it. Since then we've learned that there have been three offenses, the second "bonded out" (whatever that means) and the third just last year and currently held over in circuit court. All this is new to us and we're unsure how much we can say in the review without retaliation legal or otherwise. They paid us for the items we knew were missing immediately but we've since found other things. The office manager hinted that the theft has been an ongoing issue and assured us that he would not be alone in a home again, We saw them all in action, though, and it's clear that he gives the orders. We tried to learn more details of the offenses but the courthouse clerk just referred us to an old, DOS terminal with no instructions.
Is this review sufficient or can you suggest any improvements? We can't afford to consult a lawyer and Legal Aid says they can only help if we're sued, which we'd like to avoid.
We wrote, "Not recommended, very serious concerns including things missing. If you feel you must use them suggest doing your research first." Is this enough of a hint? When we spoke with his office manager, who is also a relative, she told us it was a case of being 18 with a 16-year old girlfriend, as if that excused it. Since then we've learned that there have been three offenses, the second "bonded out" (whatever that means) and the third just last year and currently held over in circuit court. All this is new to us and we're unsure how much we can say in the review without retaliation legal or otherwise. They paid us for the items we knew were missing immediately but we've since found other things. The office manager hinted that the theft has been an ongoing issue and assured us that he would not be alone in a home again, We saw them all in action, though, and it's clear that he gives the orders. We tried to learn more details of the offenses but the courthouse clerk just referred us to an old, DOS terminal with no instructions.
Is this review sufficient or can you suggest any improvements? We can't afford to consult a lawyer and Legal Aid says they can only help if we're sued, which we'd like to avoid.
I concur with JPD; my personal feeling is that sex offender registries cause more problems than they solve, and you can make a hobby out of digging up information on this guy if you really want to go to the trouble. Focus on his crappy service as a mover, and file charges concerning the theft if you need to.
posted by TedW at 2:17 PM on September 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by TedW at 2:17 PM on September 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: I didn't want to make it too long and left out the part about an earlier, Google review accusing him of child molestation and using his job to get close to kids. I actually petitioned Google to remove that review when he told me the writer was a competitor who'd broken the law, been turned in by our mover, and was now retaliating.
I disagree that his issues with molestation are irrelevant to his work. Would you want him in your home if you were a parent?
posted by R2WeTwo at 2:18 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
I disagree that his issues with molestation are irrelevant to his work. Would you want him in your home if you were a parent?
posted by R2WeTwo at 2:18 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
The theft is one thing. Even if you were compensated, the fact that office manager admitted it has "been a problem" is sufficient to justify your review as it stands.
But I am with JPD. What the heck does it matter if one of the crew was a sex offender? They have to work too, and they have a terrible time finding work given the completely hysterical level of stigmatization characteristic of this discourse. Seems like being a mover (not a thief of course) is legit work that doesn't expose anyone to any risk. It's really not your business.
Implying theft is sufficient negative feedback.
posted by spitbull at 2:21 PM on September 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
But I am with JPD. What the heck does it matter if one of the crew was a sex offender? They have to work too, and they have a terrible time finding work given the completely hysterical level of stigmatization characteristic of this discourse. Seems like being a mover (not a thief of course) is legit work that doesn't expose anyone to any risk. It's really not your business.
Implying theft is sufficient negative feedback.
posted by spitbull at 2:21 PM on September 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
I agree. As a parent, I would very much want to know. I'd be tempted to just make a note about making a rule of checking the sex offender registry for anyone you hire to spend time in your home; however, I think you might be better off contacting the site where you're leaving your reviews and find out their policy.
posted by lemniskate at 2:23 PM on September 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by lemniskate at 2:23 PM on September 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I am a parent. I would not want him in my home. Touching or molesting a child can happen in just a few minutes. Why don't you post something like "Not suitable for homes with children" in your review. Also, you could contact google and tell them to re-instate the previous review.
posted by zia at 2:24 PM on September 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by zia at 2:24 PM on September 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: It's not just one of the crew, spitbull, it's the owner.
posted by R2WeTwo at 2:30 PM on September 19, 2011
posted by R2WeTwo at 2:30 PM on September 19, 2011
Agreeing with lemniskate, zia and the young rope-rider that it is relevant information. Put whatever you think will stick, including whatever you have to, to signal "be on your guard" and "danger". It's definitely a problem for offenders to get solid places in society and be productive members, but it looks like this particular person isn't the "just trying to make a living" type fellow. Please feel free to warn your fellow citizens to be cautious.
posted by cashman at 2:31 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by cashman at 2:31 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm really confused but unless you've seen an actual history of convictions so you can verify the truth of these allegations yourself, do not spread these warnings.
Frankly, my review would say "Poor management, broken items and problematic movers. Made good on claim but would never hire again. Exercise caution."
posted by DarlingBri at 2:51 PM on September 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
Frankly, my review would say "Poor management, broken items and problematic movers. Made good on claim but would never hire again. Exercise caution."
posted by DarlingBri at 2:51 PM on September 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: hal..., many of your statements feel like misunderstandings. The last is typical:
6. Why did this RELATIVE refer this mover to you if he knew this was an ongoing issue?
She is related to the mover. Everyone in his business appears to be. She didn't refer me to anything, except an insurance check. It felt like bad form to call the cops about razors and other small items when they paid us for them. She told me of the problem when we had a long talk. She was trying to build on the relationship we established when she was here. I really don't know where to start with the rest of your remarks.
posted by R2WeTwo at 2:57 PM on September 19, 2011
6. Why did this RELATIVE refer this mover to you if he knew this was an ongoing issue?
She is related to the mover. Everyone in his business appears to be. She didn't refer me to anything, except an insurance check. It felt like bad form to call the cops about razors and other small items when they paid us for them. She told me of the problem when we had a long talk. She was trying to build on the relationship we established when she was here. I really don't know where to start with the rest of your remarks.
posted by R2WeTwo at 2:57 PM on September 19, 2011
Whether he was ever an 18-year-old who had sex with his 16-year-old girlfriend has nothing to do with his aptitude as a mover. Whether he's a CHILD MOLESTER -- note, I don't include "had sex with girlfriend 2 years younger" in this category -- totally does have to do with his aptitude as a mover. But nobody fact-checks Google Reviews comments, you know? So I wouldn't go trying to write more (potentially libelous) stuff on the internet. I would just stick to the facts which -- if he did steal your stuff -- are damning in and of themselves.
posted by hungrytiger at 2:59 PM on September 19, 2011
posted by hungrytiger at 2:59 PM on September 19, 2011
Response by poster: Okay...again hal... He is on the site for offenders in our state. I don't know how to be more clear than that.
posted by R2WeTwo at 3:00 PM on September 19, 2011
posted by R2WeTwo at 3:00 PM on September 19, 2011
Response by poster: WOW, there are some very strong feelings about this. My takeaway is that the people "defending" him seem to be angry and a little hostile, a clear direction for me.
Google review are very meaningful to the people in my circle.
posted by R2WeTwo at 3:02 PM on September 19, 2011
Google review are very meaningful to the people in my circle.
posted by R2WeTwo at 3:02 PM on September 19, 2011
Best answer: Other people have the same resources to check him out that you used. If you don't want to get sued , then stick with the facts related to his moving company actions. He steals stuff, he may or may not be a sexual predator, and he knows where you live. You try to " kick his ass", he may return the favor.
posted by lobstah at 3:05 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by lobstah at 3:05 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: YES, by all means, mention the sex offender status. That is a huge, huge thing that is going to be of concern to virtually everyone shopping around for a mover. The fact that he is on the sex offender registry shows that he has a problem with impulse control, predatory sexuality, and basic morals, and it baffles me that these other commenters here are telling you NOT TO WARN PEOPLE so that they can be aware of who they're bringing around their children and families. Wow.
Yes, include it in the review, without hesitation.
posted by jayder at 3:07 PM on September 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
Yes, include it in the review, without hesitation.
posted by jayder at 3:07 PM on September 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
The fact that he is on the sex offender registry shows that he has a problem with impulse control, predatory sexuality, and basic morals
No, the fact that he is on the sex offender registry shows that the state has made a decision to create a sex offender registry because OMG WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN is political catnip. There isn't a DWI registry or even a petty theft registry, and it's the missing items that you ought to flag and report.
posted by holgate at 3:14 PM on September 19, 2011 [18 favorites]
No, the fact that he is on the sex offender registry shows that the state has made a decision to create a sex offender registry because OMG WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN is political catnip. There isn't a DWI registry or even a petty theft registry, and it's the missing items that you ought to flag and report.
posted by holgate at 3:14 PM on September 19, 2011 [18 favorites]
Totally agree with hal_c_on on this; his status as a sexual offender are, in this case, completely and totally irrelevant to his abilities as a mover. He is on the sex offender registry for having sex with his girlfriend of two years younger than himself, how does that make him dangerous to small children, or women in general? Leave it off. But yes, definitely mention his stealing your stuff. And then, go to the cops.
posted by TheMidnightHobo at 3:15 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by TheMidnightHobo at 3:15 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
The hostility -- most of which I see in only one answer above, but which I think you are insinuating is true of everyone who says you are overreacting -- is due to the moral panic over "sex offender" status that has utterly bollocksed any hope of using such a classification in meaningful ways to enhance public safety, and become the Scarlet Letter moral panic of our time.
Your original question did not mention the google review -- quite a big thing to forget. Some of the advice above, including mine, was given before you dropped that. In your original question you had nothing except dubiously legal hearsay on which to base your claim.
Obviously you want to shame and humiliate this guy. hal_c_on and others are just pointing out that it a) might be unfair to do so; and b) could expose *you* to both legal risk and the risk of retaliation.
Who leaves their children alone with the movers?
posted by spitbull at 3:15 PM on September 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
Your original question did not mention the google review -- quite a big thing to forget. Some of the advice above, including mine, was given before you dropped that. In your original question you had nothing except dubiously legal hearsay on which to base your claim.
Obviously you want to shame and humiliate this guy. hal_c_on and others are just pointing out that it a) might be unfair to do so; and b) could expose *you* to both legal risk and the risk of retaliation.
Who leaves their children alone with the movers?
posted by spitbull at 3:15 PM on September 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Please take debates about the validity of the sex offender registry elsewhere and stick to the question itself. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 3:29 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 3:29 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: If you found more things missing after being reimbursed you either go back to the company with a new list or you let it go and get on with your life, depending on the value.
As for people having records and becoming movers, we've moved twice and have small children and we never had the full names and background checks of the people who showed up to do load outs or load ins, ever. We were present with our children at all times during the loading.
It is OUR jobs as parents to keep our eyes on our children at all times, especially seeing as how all doors were open, the house was essentially holding 5-6 strangers in addition to us and these strangers were hoisting heavy things around. To expect every person you ever encounter to be safe by your standards is a fallacy.
Good luck!
posted by pink candy floss at 3:31 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
As for people having records and becoming movers, we've moved twice and have small children and we never had the full names and background checks of the people who showed up to do load outs or load ins, ever. We were present with our children at all times during the loading.
It is OUR jobs as parents to keep our eyes on our children at all times, especially seeing as how all doors were open, the house was essentially holding 5-6 strangers in addition to us and these strangers were hoisting heavy things around. To expect every person you ever encounter to be safe by your standards is a fallacy.
Good luck!
posted by pink candy floss at 3:31 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
WOW, there are some very strong feelings about this. My takeaway is that the people "defending" him seem to be angry and a little hostile, a clear direction for me.
I'm not angry, I'm not hostile, and I'm not defending the guy (and I don't think anyone else is either).
But I think there are things, some of them related to your potential legal liability, that you're not considering. And, respectfully, the defenders are not the only ones that seem to be angry and have strong feelings about this situation.
If items were missing (nothing you say proves that he stole them), say that. If you'd rather move with a little red wagon than hire these guys again, say that too. But people have brought up some good reasons that mentioning the sex-offender registry stuff might not be a good idea.
posted by box at 3:33 PM on September 19, 2011
I'm not angry, I'm not hostile, and I'm not defending the guy (and I don't think anyone else is either).
But I think there are things, some of them related to your potential legal liability, that you're not considering. And, respectfully, the defenders are not the only ones that seem to be angry and have strong feelings about this situation.
If items were missing (nothing you say proves that he stole them), say that. If you'd rather move with a little red wagon than hire these guys again, say that too. But people have brought up some good reasons that mentioning the sex-offender registry stuff might not be a good idea.
posted by box at 3:33 PM on September 19, 2011
Best answer: If I'm choosing movers, I expect to be able to trust them to move *all* of my possessions safely from A to B. Basic prerequisite.
For me, whether or not this guy is on the sex offender registry is irrelevant. The fact that he or someone in his employ apparently thinks it's OK to pocket some of the things they're being paid to move is enough to rule the company out anyway.
You have first-hand experience of the theft; you don't have first-hand experience of anything else. Echoing most of the other posters, I say stick with what you know; it's a salient enough point by itself.
(I'm assuming you have reason to be sure about the theft.)
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 3:37 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
For me, whether or not this guy is on the sex offender registry is irrelevant. The fact that he or someone in his employ apparently thinks it's OK to pocket some of the things they're being paid to move is enough to rule the company out anyway.
You have first-hand experience of the theft; you don't have first-hand experience of anything else. Echoing most of the other posters, I say stick with what you know; it's a salient enough point by itself.
(I'm assuming you have reason to be sure about the theft.)
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 3:37 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Some people are answering "it won't matter to subsequent customers whether their mover is a sex offender, so don't propagate the information".
Of course, were you to propagate the information, then each individual subsequent customer could decide for *herself* whether it matters to her that her mover is a sex offender.
I suspect most subsequent customers will care very much about this information, which may result in his being pushed into a line of work where he doesn't enter people's homes, which sounds like an excellent outcome.
posted by foursentences at 3:59 PM on September 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
Of course, were you to propagate the information, then each individual subsequent customer could decide for *herself* whether it matters to her that her mover is a sex offender.
I suspect most subsequent customers will care very much about this information, which may result in his being pushed into a line of work where he doesn't enter people's homes, which sounds like an excellent outcome.
posted by foursentences at 3:59 PM on September 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
As a data point I am a single woman who wouldn't care about this information and wouldn't believe it if I read it in a review anyway.
I might be an outlier because in my work I teach in a maximum security men's prison. If anything I might be more likely to hire a guy trying to make a fresh start.
I say leave the information off. It has nothing to do with his performance of his work-- which was shitty anyway. It makes those review sites less useful when they are cluttered with information that is irrelevant.
posted by vincele at 4:11 PM on September 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
I might be an outlier because in my work I teach in a maximum security men's prison. If anything I might be more likely to hire a guy trying to make a fresh start.
I say leave the information off. It has nothing to do with his performance of his work-- which was shitty anyway. It makes those review sites less useful when they are cluttered with information that is irrelevant.
posted by vincele at 4:11 PM on September 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I am not yet an attorney, I am certainly not your attorney, and even if I were, I could not give you specific legal advice without knowing much more about your situation.
I take it you're asking whether to post this information would be to risk incurring legal expenses. As a matter of general knowledge: in the U.S., even if someone sues you unfairly and wrongly, and you win the suit -- nonetheless you should NOT ordinarily expect to recover your legal expenses. So you can sometimes lose money even if the judge agrees that you're wholly in the right.
That would seem to be a separate question from the question of what is morally right to do in this situation.
posted by foursentences at 4:26 PM on September 19, 2011
I take it you're asking whether to post this information would be to risk incurring legal expenses. As a matter of general knowledge: in the U.S., even if someone sues you unfairly and wrongly, and you win the suit -- nonetheless you should NOT ordinarily expect to recover your legal expenses. So you can sometimes lose money even if the judge agrees that you're wholly in the right.
That would seem to be a separate question from the question of what is morally right to do in this situation.
posted by foursentences at 4:26 PM on September 19, 2011
Best answer: I am not an attorney, much less yours, but if you do decide to put something about him being a sex offender in your review you probably ought to be very, very certain that every single detail in your review is verified, undisputable fact. I would be quite wary about running afoul of libel/slander, even accidentally.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:59 PM on September 19, 2011
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:59 PM on September 19, 2011
Yeah. The decision not to include this information in your review is not the same as defending the guy. A review that says "he stole my stuff and the company representative admitted this was an ongoing problem" is more than damaging enough (assuming the above is true of course) without getting into his off-the-job criminal charges.
The drama and fighting that will go on here if he decides to take revenge on you for this review through the legal system is just not worth losing your sanity. Warn future customers to stay away based on your first-hand experience and reasonable evidence, let the police know what's going on (the police might not be all that inclined to care generally, but sex offender paranoia might just work in your favor here), and make sure the movers make good on their promises. Beyond that, you cannot personally fight all the injustice in the world.
posted by zachlipton at 5:09 PM on September 19, 2011
The drama and fighting that will go on here if he decides to take revenge on you for this review through the legal system is just not worth losing your sanity. Warn future customers to stay away based on your first-hand experience and reasonable evidence, let the police know what's going on (the police might not be all that inclined to care generally, but sex offender paranoia might just work in your favor here), and make sure the movers make good on their promises. Beyond that, you cannot personally fight all the injustice in the world.
posted by zachlipton at 5:09 PM on September 19, 2011
The US justice system has decided that he's fit to be a working member of society, why do you need to take it upon yourself to make sure that doesn't happen? Because you think he stole your razor blades? It's seems unnecessarily vindictive, leaving aside whatever legal troubles you might make for yourself.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 5:12 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by villanelles at dawn at 5:12 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
felt like bad form to call the cops about razors and other small items when they paid us for them
The office manager hinted that the theft has been an ongoing issue.
They paid us for the items we knew were missing immediately but we've since found other things
I'm at a loss as to why anyone would steal razors and small items personal to you, or why the company would cover up for this guy when he is stealing from you. That's outrageous.
Since he is the owner and the thief, did you confront him directly about the issue, including the other items you have found missing? He is licensed--did you complain to the licensing board? That would seem to be the appropriate response to your situation.
but even worse is that he's listed in the sexual offender directory.
When we spoke with his office manager, who is also a relative, she told us it was a case of being 18 with a 16-year old girlfriend, as if that excused it
an earlier, Google review accusing him of child molestation and using his job to get close to kids. I actually petitioned Google to remove that review
We tried to learn more details of the offenses but the courthouse clerk just referred us to an old, DOS terminal with no instructions.
Wow. Though the charges listed in the registry are certainly disturbing, you personally know nothing about their veracity. Your personal involvement in what should be a business relationship is also creepy, honestly. You shouldn't be petitioning to remove reviews about situations you personally know nothing about. The clerk is not there to indulge your curiosity. I'm not going to get into the "16yo with an 18 yo" stuff with you, though I'm tempted, because that's irrelevant--and so is anything you might mention in your review other than your personal experience.
Since you personally discovered him on a registry, if you want to warn anyone off, you might make a general recommendation that anyone looking for a mover should check to see if that mover has any kind of criminal background just for their own peace of mind, but that's it. Otherwise you just come across as spiteful and vindictive.
posted by misha at 5:32 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
The office manager hinted that the theft has been an ongoing issue.
They paid us for the items we knew were missing immediately but we've since found other things
I'm at a loss as to why anyone would steal razors and small items personal to you, or why the company would cover up for this guy when he is stealing from you. That's outrageous.
Since he is the owner and the thief, did you confront him directly about the issue, including the other items you have found missing? He is licensed--did you complain to the licensing board? That would seem to be the appropriate response to your situation.
but even worse is that he's listed in the sexual offender directory.
When we spoke with his office manager, who is also a relative, she told us it was a case of being 18 with a 16-year old girlfriend, as if that excused it
an earlier, Google review accusing him of child molestation and using his job to get close to kids. I actually petitioned Google to remove that review
We tried to learn more details of the offenses but the courthouse clerk just referred us to an old, DOS terminal with no instructions.
Wow. Though the charges listed in the registry are certainly disturbing, you personally know nothing about their veracity. Your personal involvement in what should be a business relationship is also creepy, honestly. You shouldn't be petitioning to remove reviews about situations you personally know nothing about. The clerk is not there to indulge your curiosity. I'm not going to get into the "16yo with an 18 yo" stuff with you, though I'm tempted, because that's irrelevant--and so is anything you might mention in your review other than your personal experience.
Since you personally discovered him on a registry, if you want to warn anyone off, you might make a general recommendation that anyone looking for a mover should check to see if that mover has any kind of criminal background just for their own peace of mind, but that's it. Otherwise you just come across as spiteful and vindictive.
posted by misha at 5:32 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
We wrote, "Not recommended, very serious concerns including things missing. If you feel you must use them suggest doing your research first." Is this enough of a hint?
Not really... I mean, if they are reading your review, they are in the process of doing their research. If your goal here is to out this guy as a sexual offender, then this isn't gonna do it. Not that I think it's advisable for you to go that route - personally, I'd stick with the theft and leave it at that.
posted by coupdefoudre at 5:36 PM on September 19, 2011
Not really... I mean, if they are reading your review, they are in the process of doing their research. If your goal here is to out this guy as a sexual offender, then this isn't gonna do it. Not that I think it's advisable for you to go that route - personally, I'd stick with the theft and leave it at that.
posted by coupdefoudre at 5:36 PM on September 19, 2011
Best answer: R2WeTwo writes "I disagree that his issues with molestation are irrelevant to his work. Would you want him in your home if you were a parent?"
Wouldn't bother me in the least. Movers are busy doing their thing and it's not like I'd leave my child unattended during these times. However I let my daughter go to the local park by herself so I may be a bit of an outlier.
R2WeTwo writes "She is related to the mover. Everyone in his business appears to be. She didn't refer me to anything, except an insurance check. It felt like bad form to call the cops about razors and other small items when they paid us for them."
Writing a review is small potatoes. If you want to make sure this guy never works for the kind of people who would ever see your review then the best thing to do would be to file a police report and make a claim against his bond for the newly discovered missing items. Viola, he loses his bond and the people who care about that kind of thing will never hire him.
posted by Mitheral at 6:47 PM on September 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
Wouldn't bother me in the least. Movers are busy doing their thing and it's not like I'd leave my child unattended during these times. However I let my daughter go to the local park by herself so I may be a bit of an outlier.
R2WeTwo writes "She is related to the mover. Everyone in his business appears to be. She didn't refer me to anything, except an insurance check. It felt like bad form to call the cops about razors and other small items when they paid us for them."
Writing a review is small potatoes. If you want to make sure this guy never works for the kind of people who would ever see your review then the best thing to do would be to file a police report and make a claim against his bond for the newly discovered missing items. Viola, he loses his bond and the people who care about that kind of thing will never hire him.
posted by Mitheral at 6:47 PM on September 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure I understand: are you proposing to tell people that he's on the sex offender registry, or to pick the story you don't like and tell everybody about it as if it were true, and then mix that in with your real complaint that should actually keep anybody from hiring him? If I found out that your description of the sex offense was wrong, I would assume that you were lying about the theft as well.
And it isn't even necessary. Who would be OK with hiring a mover who steals people's stuff, but draw the line at hiring a mover who steals stuff and also molests kids?
I also still don't understand why you're not officially reporting the theft, which could actually have some consequences other than prompting him to move on to someplace else. If you're not willing to treat it as a real theft, and go on the record about it, I don't see how you can justify writing an anonymous review accusing him of it.
posted by Adventurer at 8:59 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
And it isn't even necessary. Who would be OK with hiring a mover who steals people's stuff, but draw the line at hiring a mover who steals stuff and also molests kids?
I also still don't understand why you're not officially reporting the theft, which could actually have some consequences other than prompting him to move on to someplace else. If you're not willing to treat it as a real theft, and go on the record about it, I don't see how you can justify writing an anonymous review accusing him of it.
posted by Adventurer at 8:59 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
He's not going to lose his bond unless he can't afford to pay you for the items. Most likely they will suggest he pay you to save himself money and he will do so.
I don't blame you for looking up publicly available information (those DOS terminals work btw), but it is a pretty high level of effort for you to go to.
I don't take the sex offender registry seriously because I've seen it used against people who were just publicly urinating (someone thought they were doing something else). I think your review as is was good. Filching your stuff is a pretty big flaw for a moving company to have.
posted by salvia at 10:14 PM on September 19, 2011
I don't blame you for looking up publicly available information (those DOS terminals work btw), but it is a pretty high level of effort for you to go to.
I don't take the sex offender registry seriously because I've seen it used against people who were just publicly urinating (someone thought they were doing something else). I think your review as is was good. Filching your stuff is a pretty big flaw for a moving company to have.
posted by salvia at 10:14 PM on September 19, 2011
I also still don't understand why you're not officially reporting the theft, which could actually have some consequences other than prompting him to move on to someplace else. If you're not willing to treat it as a real theft, and go on the record about it, I don't see how you can justify writing an anonymous review accusing him of it.
This. And, FWIW, if someone ran around claiming I was a thief with so much as a police complaing, and I lost business because of it, I'd be going to a good defamation lawyer.
posted by rodgerd at 1:32 AM on September 20, 2011
This. And, FWIW, if someone ran around claiming I was a thief with so much as a police complaing, and I lost business because of it, I'd be going to a good defamation lawyer.
posted by rodgerd at 1:32 AM on September 20, 2011
“as if that excused it” – well, actually, it DOES excuse it, entirely. The relationship described is perfectly legal in many jurisdictions and if this is actually what led to his inclusion on the sex offender registry, then the poor guy was seriously unlucky. The idea that you would even consider compounding his misfortune and possibly destroying his livelihood over a few low-value missing items is just insane.
Things sometimes go missing when you move. The last time I moved, a single boot and a bright red colander just disappeared into the ether. I didn’t use a moving company, it was just me, a friend, and a pickup truck. Maybe this guy stole your razor blades and whatnot. Maybe he didn’t. You don’t have proof and you have no right whatsoever to make these accusations. Not only are you opening yourself up to legal action, your “review” could possibly make it difficult or impossible for this man to find work, pay for shelter, and feed/clothe himself and his family. All over a vague idea that maybe he stole some easily replaceable crap. You need to step back and have a serious think about what you’re doing.
posted by cilantro at 3:09 AM on September 20, 2011 [4 favorites]
Things sometimes go missing when you move. The last time I moved, a single boot and a bright red colander just disappeared into the ether. I didn’t use a moving company, it was just me, a friend, and a pickup truck. Maybe this guy stole your razor blades and whatnot. Maybe he didn’t. You don’t have proof and you have no right whatsoever to make these accusations. Not only are you opening yourself up to legal action, your “review” could possibly make it difficult or impossible for this man to find work, pay for shelter, and feed/clothe himself and his family. All over a vague idea that maybe he stole some easily replaceable crap. You need to step back and have a serious think about what you’re doing.
posted by cilantro at 3:09 AM on September 20, 2011 [4 favorites]
I am going to add something here. In my younger days, I worked as a furniture mover for several years. We did everything from evictions to high end mansions. We were licensed, bonded, and insured.
The guys I worked with were almost to a one ex-cons or otherwise more than a little experienced with criminality. Some of them had done time for violent offenses. I have news for you: moving is a shitty, shitty job. It's back-breaking, and it doesn't pay very well. You come home from work dead to the world after busy or hot days especially, and then you get up and do it again. It was one of the most physically demanding jobs I've ever had, and I've had some doozies, including construction. The turnover rate for movers is really high, and guys with MBAs and good clean records are not showing up for these jobs, or at least they weren't 20 years ago. Heck, one reason my boss kept me on (I was smaller than most of his gorillas) was that I had a clean driving record, could read a map, measure a staircase, and calculate a bill, and I had the social skills of a middle-class upbringing to negotiate complications (like accusations of theft or carelessness) between posh clients and the crew.
In other words, I am going to bet that *any* time you hire a commercial mover, certainly a local operator doing apartment and small house moves on a small truck, you are going to get some riff raff in your house. It's been that way forever. Theft is a huge problem in the moving business, and always has been. It's a job of last resort for a certain kind of person (almost always men).
I am positive there are many exceptions -- sole proprietors, small operations, just good crews. But I would never, ever count on a moving crew not including someone with a criminal background, at least not if you're looking to get a competitive price.
When you move, be involved. Watch your stuff. Follow the truck. Stay out of the way but don't make yourself scarce. And for cruds sake don't leave valuable items in plain sight, leave your children alone with the movers, etc.
I guarantee you this guy's competitors also have ex-cons and sex offenders working for them. It's just reality. If you don't want that, ask your friends to help you move and see what they say when they are trying to get that armoire through a 5th floor walkup doorway.
posted by spitbull at 4:57 AM on September 20, 2011 [13 favorites]
The guys I worked with were almost to a one ex-cons or otherwise more than a little experienced with criminality. Some of them had done time for violent offenses. I have news for you: moving is a shitty, shitty job. It's back-breaking, and it doesn't pay very well. You come home from work dead to the world after busy or hot days especially, and then you get up and do it again. It was one of the most physically demanding jobs I've ever had, and I've had some doozies, including construction. The turnover rate for movers is really high, and guys with MBAs and good clean records are not showing up for these jobs, or at least they weren't 20 years ago. Heck, one reason my boss kept me on (I was smaller than most of his gorillas) was that I had a clean driving record, could read a map, measure a staircase, and calculate a bill, and I had the social skills of a middle-class upbringing to negotiate complications (like accusations of theft or carelessness) between posh clients and the crew.
In other words, I am going to bet that *any* time you hire a commercial mover, certainly a local operator doing apartment and small house moves on a small truck, you are going to get some riff raff in your house. It's been that way forever. Theft is a huge problem in the moving business, and always has been. It's a job of last resort for a certain kind of person (almost always men).
I am positive there are many exceptions -- sole proprietors, small operations, just good crews. But I would never, ever count on a moving crew not including someone with a criminal background, at least not if you're looking to get a competitive price.
When you move, be involved. Watch your stuff. Follow the truck. Stay out of the way but don't make yourself scarce. And for cruds sake don't leave valuable items in plain sight, leave your children alone with the movers, etc.
I guarantee you this guy's competitors also have ex-cons and sex offenders working for them. It's just reality. If you don't want that, ask your friends to help you move and see what they say when they are trying to get that armoire through a 5th floor walkup doorway.
posted by spitbull at 4:57 AM on September 20, 2011 [13 favorites]
I will also add that many moving crew members in my own big city are illegal immigrants, some hired as day laborers during busy times of the year. Your odds of knowing thing one about any of them -- whether they were rapists or murderers for example, in their home countries -- are extremely slim. Your odds of learning their real names are even slimmer.
posted by spitbull at 6:40 AM on September 20, 2011
posted by spitbull at 6:40 AM on September 20, 2011
Mod note: few comments removed - do not turn this thread into a fight, say your bit and move on.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:55 AM on September 20, 2011
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:55 AM on September 20, 2011
Stay away from mentioning the sex offender registry. Unless you have solid details that he did something other than have sex with a girl two years younger than him, it just discredits your claim of theft -- unless your objection is related to his job performance, it's personal, and personal objections have no place in business reviews.
If it was a big deal to keep people like that way from you, you would have checked it *before* you hired him, not just after you found his job unsatisfactory.
Report the theft. if the company doesn't reimburse you, get the cops involved, if it's really that big a deal. And next time, get recommendations of movers from people you know that have used them.
posted by custard heart at 9:59 AM on September 20, 2011
If it was a big deal to keep people like that way from you, you would have checked it *before* you hired him, not just after you found his job unsatisfactory.
Report the theft. if the company doesn't reimburse you, get the cops involved, if it's really that big a deal. And next time, get recommendations of movers from people you know that have used them.
posted by custard heart at 9:59 AM on September 20, 2011
A little late to the game, but perhaps you can humour me:
I think your worries are entirely unfounded due to the following: this guy's crime consisted in being 18 and having sex with a person who was 16 and who couldn't legally consent. Of course, having sex with someone who can't consent is inexcusable. However, his record only shows (again) that he was willing to have sex with a person who is very near his age (i.e., two years is surprisingly close, even in this day and age). So, if you have one or more teenage daughters to whom he is still very near in age, you would've had reason to be concerned by his presence in your house. Or, rather, since his crime didn't involve any persons whom he was not dating, let's modify that: if you have one or more teenage daughters to whom he is still very near in age and whom he happened to be dating, you would've had reason to be concerned by his presence in your house.
If neither of these things were the case, lumping him in the category of {any and all persons who have ever molested a minor} is utterly absurd for the following reason: all statistics appear to point to the fact that your child's/children's own family members are far more likely to molest them, and that such a thing is true even when we take into account this particular guy's record, since his record shows his proclivities to be severely limited in scope. In other words, if your children are young and/or if they are teenaged yet he wasn't dating them at the time, he was, statistically-speaking, no threat whatsoever. In fact, you should be inclined to hire this guy over any relative, if that previous statistic is in any way on the mark (hint: it is).
In conclusion: I'd only recommend writing such a review if you think that statistics regarding child abuse are in fact irrelevant to the legitimacy of concerns regarding child abuse.
posted by matlock expressway at 3:05 PM on September 20, 2011
I think your worries are entirely unfounded due to the following: this guy's crime consisted in being 18 and having sex with a person who was 16 and who couldn't legally consent. Of course, having sex with someone who can't consent is inexcusable. However, his record only shows (again) that he was willing to have sex with a person who is very near his age (i.e., two years is surprisingly close, even in this day and age). So, if you have one or more teenage daughters to whom he is still very near in age, you would've had reason to be concerned by his presence in your house. Or, rather, since his crime didn't involve any persons whom he was not dating, let's modify that: if you have one or more teenage daughters to whom he is still very near in age and whom he happened to be dating, you would've had reason to be concerned by his presence in your house.
If neither of these things were the case, lumping him in the category of {any and all persons who have ever molested a minor} is utterly absurd for the following reason: all statistics appear to point to the fact that your child's/children's own family members are far more likely to molest them, and that such a thing is true even when we take into account this particular guy's record, since his record shows his proclivities to be severely limited in scope. In other words, if your children are young and/or if they are teenaged yet he wasn't dating them at the time, he was, statistically-speaking, no threat whatsoever. In fact, you should be inclined to hire this guy over any relative, if that previous statistic is in any way on the mark (hint: it is).
In conclusion: I'd only recommend writing such a review if you think that statistics regarding child abuse are in fact irrelevant to the legitimacy of concerns regarding child abuse.
posted by matlock expressway at 3:05 PM on September 20, 2011
[Apologies for being a bit blunt, but your intended campaign to launch this guy into notoriety and potentially ruin any possible future of his living a reasonably normal life also seems rather blunt when viewed in the preceding light.]
posted by matlock expressway at 3:18 PM on September 20, 2011
posted by matlock expressway at 3:18 PM on September 20, 2011
Mod note: we are no longer talking about the sex offender registry, please email those comments to the OP, thank you
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:49 AM on September 21, 2011
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:49 AM on September 21, 2011
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Its not like he's a mover/babysitter.
posted by JPD at 2:14 PM on September 19, 2011 [30 favorites]