Should I feel bad about flirting while my kid is with me?
September 4, 2011 1:27 PM Subscribe
What is the etiquette for flirting when I'm with my daughter?
I'm a single father. I have full custody of my daughter. I want to be able to meet people, but I worry that women will find my flirting with my child present somehow... untoward, I guess? I also worry a little bit about how the wee one will see it. She's 9, and I don't want her to grow up thinking I view women as "objects" or "toys." Can you help, MeFites? I'm kind of at a loss here...
I'm a single father. I have full custody of my daughter. I want to be able to meet people, but I worry that women will find my flirting with my child present somehow... untoward, I guess? I also worry a little bit about how the wee one will see it. She's 9, and I don't want her to grow up thinking I view women as "objects" or "toys." Can you help, MeFites? I'm kind of at a loss here...
Best answer: I would find it a terrible turn off. Is there a way you can do the "it's hard to talk right now" while giving meaningful looks on your daughter's direction with a shrug...to say you're interested but that your hands are tied?
There's always the option of sending your daughter, briefly, to buy you a bottle of water or something if it's close and she's out of earshot but visible.
But otherwise, she's too young and there's always online dating and the times when she is not in your custody.
As the daughter of a divorced father, I would have been very, very angry also. And as a formerly single woman, quite yucked out.
posted by taff at 1:44 PM on September 4, 2011 [8 favorites]
There's always the option of sending your daughter, briefly, to buy you a bottle of water or something if it's close and she's out of earshot but visible.
But otherwise, she's too young and there's always online dating and the times when she is not in your custody.
As the daughter of a divorced father, I would have been very, very angry also. And as a formerly single woman, quite yucked out.
posted by taff at 1:44 PM on September 4, 2011 [8 favorites]
There's flirting and then there's flirting. A little non-sexual friendly conversation with a woman you might be interested in would probably be okay, while anything overtly filled with innuendo would not be.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:47 PM on September 4, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 1:47 PM on September 4, 2011 [9 favorites]
At 9, your daughter is way more perceptive than you might think. She will also, over the years, put the story together about your behavior so think about what that story looks like. Also, keep in mind that lots of women will be friendlier to you when you have your daughter around because you are "safe." Women actually really do like to interact with other men but often avoid doing so if they think they will be hit on or creeped on. However, these women may not actually be interested in you in that way.
Anyway, there's friendliness and then there's asking for someone's number. I think you can be friendly and make connections in your daughter's presence and, if you must, say, "hey, I'd like to talk to you more if you want to, here's my card." But, really, unless you are trying very, very hard all the time, it is unlikely that too many women will be the kind that want your number on a casual meet. So, this will probably happen rarely. If you're constantly looking for opportunities to drop your number and your daughter is cramping your style then I think you should cut that out.
It's all a matter of degrees and appropriateness. I think I would lean away from flirting in front of your daughter. Let the focus be on her not some random woman who might replace mom.
posted by amanda at 1:52 PM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Anyway, there's friendliness and then there's asking for someone's number. I think you can be friendly and make connections in your daughter's presence and, if you must, say, "hey, I'd like to talk to you more if you want to, here's my card." But, really, unless you are trying very, very hard all the time, it is unlikely that too many women will be the kind that want your number on a casual meet. So, this will probably happen rarely. If you're constantly looking for opportunities to drop your number and your daughter is cramping your style then I think you should cut that out.
It's all a matter of degrees and appropriateness. I think I would lean away from flirting in front of your daughter. Let the focus be on her not some random woman who might replace mom.
posted by amanda at 1:52 PM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Flirting is actually a pretty wide spectrum of behavior -- being charming/amusing and making extra eye contact (for example) can be flirty, but isn't specifically sexual and certainly has nothing to do with treatment women as objects or toys.
posted by scody at 1:53 PM on September 4, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by scody at 1:53 PM on September 4, 2011 [7 favorites]
Best answer: From the daughter's perspective--my dad has always been a terrible flirt--the best advice I can offer is this: be respectful and... judicious? My dad, bless his heart, means well, but when I was young he used to embarrass the heck out of me by flirting relentlessly with every remotely attractive female we encountered. The embarrassment was less due to the fact that he was flirting at all--though, honestly, it was always mildly uncomfortable for me--and more due to the fact that he never seemed to get when the woman wasn't into it, and he didn't seem to be very choosy about who he was flirting with. So if you're going to flirt with your kid around, it's a good idea to model respectful behavior and not give the impression that everyone with ladyparts is fair game.
From the perspective of an adult woman, blatant flirting from a man accompanied by his young daughter wouldn't be particularly comfortable for me, either. Partly because it seems inappropriate, and partly because I wouldn't feel comfortable responding in kind with the kid around. That said, "flirting" isn't necessarily the best way to engage a strange woman you're interested in regardless of who else is with you. You could just initiate a friendly conversation, and if it seems to be going well, indicate that you'd like to talk again sometime. That's not at all inappropriate with your daughter around, and also models good social interactions.
posted by rhiannonstone at 1:56 PM on September 4, 2011 [4 favorites]
From the perspective of an adult woman, blatant flirting from a man accompanied by his young daughter wouldn't be particularly comfortable for me, either. Partly because it seems inappropriate, and partly because I wouldn't feel comfortable responding in kind with the kid around. That said, "flirting" isn't necessarily the best way to engage a strange woman you're interested in regardless of who else is with you. You could just initiate a friendly conversation, and if it seems to be going well, indicate that you'd like to talk again sometime. That's not at all inappropriate with your daughter around, and also models good social interactions.
posted by rhiannonstone at 1:56 PM on September 4, 2011 [4 favorites]
I guess this depends on what you mean by flirting and what the context is. I'm having a hard time picturing a father-daughter outing that would allow you to tastefully telegraph that you're a single guy looking for a date. Sure, you might meet people that you like and would want to hang out with again, but you'd have to make it very clear upfront that you're no longer romantically attached to your kid's mom. This could be awkward for all parties.
At the risk of sounding harsh, my parents divorced when I was a kid, and even at 9 I would have been extremely uncomfortable with either of my parents flirting or making it obvious that they were single in front of me. It would have had very little to do with objectifying members of the opposite sex. You might want to conduct your (understandable!) search for a partner for times when you're alone, and save father-daughter time for just that.
(Also, I've had men flirt with me while with their children, and while I assumed they were single, I still felt weird and politely shut it down.)
posted by swingbraid at 1:57 PM on September 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
At the risk of sounding harsh, my parents divorced when I was a kid, and even at 9 I would have been extremely uncomfortable with either of my parents flirting or making it obvious that they were single in front of me. It would have had very little to do with objectifying members of the opposite sex. You might want to conduct your (understandable!) search for a partner for times when you're alone, and save father-daughter time for just that.
(Also, I've had men flirt with me while with their children, and while I assumed they were single, I still felt weird and politely shut it down.)
posted by swingbraid at 1:57 PM on September 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
Friendly, smiling conversation is probably okay. Innuendo is not. Somewhere in between is the line you're going to have to draw - as others have said, "flirting" is a really broad category.
posted by J. Wilson at 1:59 PM on September 4, 2011
posted by J. Wilson at 1:59 PM on September 4, 2011
So, even though my dad has been married to my mom for my whole life and then some and I am neither married, divorced, or with children, I think I can help with your question.
My dad is a good-looking guy, and on the weekends growing up he'd take my brother and me out on excursions (canoeing, ice cream, etc) just to get us out of our mom's hair. To the uninformed observer, I'm sure he often looked like "weekend dad" trying to impress his kids. (I should note, also, that he keeps his wedding band on his keyring, not on his finger.)
As great of a dad has he is, poor guy is socially clueless. Women used to come up and flirt with him all the time, something I didn't really realize until I was older. They'd come up, chat with him, chat with us ("you like when you get to come out and have fun with your daddy?" "uh, sure?"), start talking about themselves, etc, etc. And my dad would just be his nice guy, friendly self. Not flirting back, just being a nice guy, and talking about whatever benign topic came to mind.
Women who wanted to interpret it as friendly conversation did just that. Women who wanted to interpret it as flirting, interpreted it as flirting, sometimes to hilarious results. There are a few times I remember that he suddenly would throw up his hands and be all "WHOOOAA, I AM HAPPILY MARRIED!!! AAAHH!"
As the kid in this situation, it was never weird to me. It was just "friendly dad is friendly." So: just be nice, carry on a pleasant conversation without making it all about trying to woo a lady, and if the lady is into you, she'll let you know.
posted by phunniemee at 2:01 PM on September 4, 2011 [20 favorites]
My dad is a good-looking guy, and on the weekends growing up he'd take my brother and me out on excursions (canoeing, ice cream, etc) just to get us out of our mom's hair. To the uninformed observer, I'm sure he often looked like "weekend dad" trying to impress his kids. (I should note, also, that he keeps his wedding band on his keyring, not on his finger.)
As great of a dad has he is, poor guy is socially clueless. Women used to come up and flirt with him all the time, something I didn't really realize until I was older. They'd come up, chat with him, chat with us ("you like when you get to come out and have fun with your daddy?" "uh, sure?"), start talking about themselves, etc, etc. And my dad would just be his nice guy, friendly self. Not flirting back, just being a nice guy, and talking about whatever benign topic came to mind.
Women who wanted to interpret it as friendly conversation did just that. Women who wanted to interpret it as flirting, interpreted it as flirting, sometimes to hilarious results. There are a few times I remember that he suddenly would throw up his hands and be all "WHOOOAA, I AM HAPPILY MARRIED!!! AAAHH!"
As the kid in this situation, it was never weird to me. It was just "friendly dad is friendly." So: just be nice, carry on a pleasant conversation without making it all about trying to woo a lady, and if the lady is into you, she'll let you know.
posted by phunniemee at 2:01 PM on September 4, 2011 [20 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for all the answers! Just as an aside, by "flirting," I don't mean "Hey, do you want to come back to my place." More along the lines of just what has been said; conversation with a little possibility. It still feels seedy, and judging by the responses I've gotten thus far, I'm not wrong, but keep 'em coming!
posted by Capt.DooDooFace at 2:13 PM on September 4, 2011
posted by Capt.DooDooFace at 2:13 PM on September 4, 2011
Ways of flirting with your child present that I would find untoward and gross as a woman, and would have found untoward and gross as your 9 year old:
-Anything overtly sexual - glances at boobs or butt, staring, drooling, etc.
-Any sexual innuendoes or comments.
-Comments about physical appearance.
-Any flirtatious touching.
-As a 9 year old, I would also find situations where you were trying to hit on the woman and being rebuffed VERY awkward. I would also probably share glances with the woman about how awkward that was.
-As a 9 year old, I would also find it awkward if the woman was doing any of the above things towards you and you weren't putting a stop to it, even if you were doing it yourself.
-Also as a 9 year old, flirting with lots of women in front of me, or getting the numbers of lots of women, etc. That would probably disturb me and make me think of you kind of as a dog, and someone who was trifling with these women.
Things that would be fine:
-Cheerful, friendly, upbeat conversation.
-Mutual smiling, as long as it didn't turn into fuck-me eyes at each other. (Also, as long as the smiling wasn't just you walking around smiling or making eyes at women trying to get their attention. That would seem creepy.)
Basically, I think a better mindset might be, when you're with your daughter, it's perfectly fine to meet women and make friends with them. And that can turn into something more later in private. Save the actual flirting for when she's not around.
posted by Ashley801 at 2:16 PM on September 4, 2011 [3 favorites]
-Anything overtly sexual - glances at boobs or butt, staring, drooling, etc.
-Any sexual innuendoes or comments.
-Comments about physical appearance.
-Any flirtatious touching.
-As a 9 year old, I would also find situations where you were trying to hit on the woman and being rebuffed VERY awkward. I would also probably share glances with the woman about how awkward that was.
-As a 9 year old, I would also find it awkward if the woman was doing any of the above things towards you and you weren't putting a stop to it, even if you were doing it yourself.
-Also as a 9 year old, flirting with lots of women in front of me, or getting the numbers of lots of women, etc. That would probably disturb me and make me think of you kind of as a dog, and someone who was trifling with these women.
Things that would be fine:
-Cheerful, friendly, upbeat conversation.
-Mutual smiling, as long as it didn't turn into fuck-me eyes at each other. (Also, as long as the smiling wasn't just you walking around smiling or making eyes at women trying to get their attention. That would seem creepy.)
Basically, I think a better mindset might be, when you're with your daughter, it's perfectly fine to meet women and make friends with them. And that can turn into something more later in private. Save the actual flirting for when she's not around.
posted by Ashley801 at 2:16 PM on September 4, 2011 [3 favorites]
I absolutely would not do this. As the daughter of a man who is no longer married to my mother, I find the idea of him hitting on women in front of me sort of appalling, and I would be really, really uncomfortable spending time with him if he acted that way in front of me. As a woman who dates men, I would find a man hitting on me in front of his child appalling, and I would refuse to date a man who acted that way in front of his child. It smacks of using your child as a prop to meet women, and it puts her in the middle of your romantic/sex life in a way that she shouldn't be.
When you're with your daughter, you should focus on her. Meet women on your own time. I realize that it's likely difficult to find a lot of "me" time when you have full custody of your child, but she'll be old enough very soon to require less supervision, and then you'll have more time and energy to focus on your romantic life. I don't believe that a child should meet someone you're dating until you're sure it's going to be a permanent relationship. That means she definitely shouldn't be there when you're trying to pick up women.
posted by decathecting at 2:32 PM on September 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
When you're with your daughter, you should focus on her. Meet women on your own time. I realize that it's likely difficult to find a lot of "me" time when you have full custody of your child, but she'll be old enough very soon to require less supervision, and then you'll have more time and energy to focus on your romantic life. I don't believe that a child should meet someone you're dating until you're sure it's going to be a permanent relationship. That means she definitely shouldn't be there when you're trying to pick up women.
posted by decathecting at 2:32 PM on September 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I am neither a daughter nor the father of a daughter, so take this with a grain of salt. It does strike me that it's probably healthy for a child to observe examples of friendly, respectful inter-gender interactions, without the surreal stylization that such interactions receive in most media.
posted by foursentences at 2:58 PM on September 4, 2011 [8 favorites]
posted by foursentences at 2:58 PM on September 4, 2011 [8 favorites]
As a potential date, I would very much dislike being invited to flirt with you in front of your kid.
As a daughter, I'll defer to the people who grew up with single/divorced fathers, as I can only imagine different kinds of negative feelings about it.
posted by Adventurer at 2:58 PM on September 4, 2011
As a daughter, I'll defer to the people who grew up with single/divorced fathers, as I can only imagine different kinds of negative feelings about it.
posted by Adventurer at 2:58 PM on September 4, 2011
Best answer: Think the word that is causing negative reactions is 'flirt' since it has so many connotations. Being friendly however, is lovely. This has two benefits: (1) You get to suss out the woman you are talking to and (2) Your daughter is not excluded from the conversation but is welcome to join in. And since you probably want to date your friends (assuming you are looking for a serious relationship and not a one-night stand), you get to befriend these women before deciding if you want to date them. Everyone wins.
posted by zia at 3:21 PM on September 4, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by zia at 3:21 PM on September 4, 2011 [3 favorites]
It seems people are unduly freaking out at the word "flirt," yeah. Men walking around with babies and toddlers are women magnets because they seem "safe" and they also clearly participate in childcare, a highly attractive quality. If you have a nice conversation with a woman you find yourself attracted to and your daughter is present, so long as you act natural and are respectful, you will teach your daughter that these kinds of interactions are normal and not some big scary deal.
Kids flirt all the time, it's a natural human style of interaction. I wish I hadn't grown up with the implication that all flirting is about sex and desire: it makes it seem deadly serious and scary and it doesn't have to be. Kids certainly pick up on the tone of interactions but so long as you keep it all friendly, all your daughter will see is that you are socially skilled.
posted by Maias at 5:24 PM on September 4, 2011 [3 favorites]
Kids flirt all the time, it's a natural human style of interaction. I wish I hadn't grown up with the implication that all flirting is about sex and desire: it makes it seem deadly serious and scary and it doesn't have to be. Kids certainly pick up on the tone of interactions but so long as you keep it all friendly, all your daughter will see is that you are socially skilled.
posted by Maias at 5:24 PM on September 4, 2011 [3 favorites]
Also, I think if you follow the "just don't do it" advice you will be losing out on some of the best opportunities to meet appropriate people in a natural setting, which is generally easier for most people than the internet dating thing. Bottom line is don't be a jerk, but don't miss out a chance to connect with someone because your daughter happens to be there. Presumably, you are spending most of your time at events with the "moms" and this is the way many, many couples meet.
posted by Maias at 5:27 PM on September 4, 2011
posted by Maias at 5:27 PM on September 4, 2011
The kind of flirting you are talking about sounds perfectly healthy in front of a 9 year-old. (My son is 9 years-old, too).
If you bottle yourself up front of someone you like, you'll teach her to bottle up her emotions, too. Do you want to teach her to be natural or to be nervous?
Not to mention, if you pass up happiness because of her, she will know and understand that eventually, if not immediately, and she'll always feel responsible. Don't put that burden on her. You will wind up alone, and she will feel guilty about it.
posted by BurnChao at 6:15 PM on September 4, 2011
If you bottle yourself up front of someone you like, you'll teach her to bottle up her emotions, too. Do you want to teach her to be natural or to be nervous?
Not to mention, if you pass up happiness because of her, she will know and understand that eventually, if not immediately, and she'll always feel responsible. Don't put that burden on her. You will wind up alone, and she will feel guilty about it.
posted by BurnChao at 6:15 PM on September 4, 2011
Do it, with nuance. Yes, 9 year old girls are perceptive, but you can still out-fox 'em, particularly with a woman who's on your wavelength. Eye contact, slow smiles, shrugs and indication of "little pitchers/big ears" -- those things are endearing, respectful, not creepy. You're human, you sound aware and plugged in, you (and your lucky daughter) will be fine! You already know how.
posted by thinkpiece at 6:15 PM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by thinkpiece at 6:15 PM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Ok, I was raised by a bachelor, primarily from 2nd grade on, and I got to tell you, it would have been OK for my father to flirt with women while I was there, for the most part at 9 I would have been oblivious no matter how non-subtile it was. But the bottom line is simply this; having daddy find a loving, normal relationship and "seeing" it only after it becomes serious and genuine would not be a bad thing. Seeing you bring numerous women in and out of your daughter's life would be an enormous mistake however. So talking to women with subtile flirting gestures would not be a problem to meet a woman, but you may sincerely consider not introducing actual DATES to your daughter until they become serious relationships.
posted by Jayed at 7:06 PM on September 4, 2011
posted by Jayed at 7:06 PM on September 4, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
Most women would not take it amiss to be drawn into a conversation with a nice man and his daughter. As a woman, If I was at all interested, it's your interactions with your daughter that I would observe most consciously. You could score big or remove yourself from consideration based on that alone.
posted by dchrssyr at 1:43 PM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]