Dealing with fire & ice in affairs of the heart
September 2, 2011 9:26 PM Subscribe
I have been having an intense online correspondence and one amazing real-life date so far with a man who lives in a different city. He can be incredibly warm and open with me one day and then cold and distant the next. He told me he loves me but acts cool sometimes because he has a fear of abandonment after several women broke his heart in the past.
He also told me his father would be warm then icy to him and his siblings growing up.
I am smitten by him and never less than tender and loving with him, so it hurts when he sends me a monosyllabic response to a message where I’ve opened my heart. I know I need to earn his trust, but how do I deal with this until we get there? When he is like this I feel like I’m burdening him with my messages and calls. On the other hand, I know he wants assurance from me that I love him. What should I do? Play it cool or be my enraptured self? We will be seeing each other again in a week’s time.
He is 51 and has had many brief relationships, while I am (a somewhat childish) 40 with a very short list of exes and an overall very happy and long history with them.
He also told me his father would be warm then icy to him and his siblings growing up.
I am smitten by him and never less than tender and loving with him, so it hurts when he sends me a monosyllabic response to a message where I’ve opened my heart. I know I need to earn his trust, but how do I deal with this until we get there? When he is like this I feel like I’m burdening him with my messages and calls. On the other hand, I know he wants assurance from me that I love him. What should I do? Play it cool or be my enraptured self? We will be seeing each other again in a week’s time.
He is 51 and has had many brief relationships, while I am (a somewhat childish) 40 with a very short list of exes and an overall very happy and long history with them.
Maybe slow down on the heart-pouring. If his heart has been broken, then he's probably trying not to rush into anything. One date and you guys are saying lovesies, but you acknowledge still needing to earn his trust? Something doesn't add up here.
posted by rhizome at 9:41 PM on September 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 9:41 PM on September 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
If he says "I love you" one day and gives monosyllabic responses the next, I think that's a red flag.
Also, when you're having a relationship that's mostly online, there are distortions, because people only present the sides they want to have seen, and also because it's easier to project your fantasies onto a wall of text than it is to project your fantasies onto a three-dimensional real-time person.
That said, I wouldn't try to bluff that I was feeling cooler than I really was. What's the benefit?
posted by hungrytiger at 9:53 PM on September 2, 2011 [5 favorites]
Also, when you're having a relationship that's mostly online, there are distortions, because people only present the sides they want to have seen, and also because it's easier to project your fantasies onto a wall of text than it is to project your fantasies onto a three-dimensional real-time person.
That said, I wouldn't try to bluff that I was feeling cooler than I really was. What's the benefit?
posted by hungrytiger at 9:53 PM on September 2, 2011 [5 favorites]
Be careful because you never really know someone's whole story until you spend much more time with them in person. I would be frightened that he's married. Slow everything down until you spend more time together. Good luck and I hope it turns out well.
posted by bquarters at 9:57 PM on September 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by bquarters at 9:57 PM on September 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
Go slowly in opening yourself up in writing until you know better where this is going.
posted by infini at 10:02 PM on September 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by infini at 10:02 PM on September 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Real relationships occur in person, not online. People can be much different than online. Go on several more dates and see where things go. I know its cliche, but start living in the present. It seems like you keep thinking about the past, future, or whatever else.
Also, it seems like you need to ease up a bit on the heart pouring messages. You may be smothering him. People have different frequencies and ideal forms of communication. Ask him what he prefers.
posted by Mr. Papagiorgio at 10:09 PM on September 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
Also, it seems like you need to ease up a bit on the heart pouring messages. You may be smothering him. People have different frequencies and ideal forms of communication. Ask him what he prefers.
posted by Mr. Papagiorgio at 10:09 PM on September 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
This is hard. He's at an age where he's not really going to change, so just (as you go forward) check back, and ask yourself multiple times if you're ok with things not changing too much from the present (though some change is likely, it's probably not going to be dramatic). Also, lots of people are different in writing than in person; that is, most people won't be rude enough to just say one word to you (if they like you), but a lot of people are brief in writing. If you really get close to him, you'll find eventually you just take it as 'how he is' and may even grow fond of his conciseness. This depends whether his short replies show any interest or insight for all his brevity. I guess I've had to deal with this from lots of different sources, 'cause I'm pretty much more verbose than 95% of humanity, personally. I can tell you that I secretly look down on people who're terse (are their *thoughts* that short, I wonder), but I still understand I'm being silly, and how people express themselves and how they feel and think aren't the same thing for most people who're not a) writers; b) born, bred and possibly engineered writers (like I am). So this can easily be an issue aside from your relationship per se. I don't know if that helps. My point is that people who are verbose are not going to be less verbose because they're hurt, though it's true that people who're terse may open up and write long replies at times; you just shouldn't expect it. For most people writing is an effort; writing from the heart without being too vulnerable or too overwhelming is more of an effort; and writing in a way that both suits your desires and pleases the other person is yet more of an effort. In other words, umm, writing (even letters) is hard. Or so they tell me in the Writing Center in our school.
Well, the whole fire/ice thing is more of an issue, but you said you had a great time and you've only met once, so try to hold back on any serious pronouncements. To be honest, you may be child-like, but most middle-aged people are more reserved in general, take slower to warm and melt into love, not just damaged middle-aged people. Indeed, love is also hard, just like writing. So try not to take it personally: if writing and love and vulnerability seem easy to you, it's a sign of how special *you* are. Most people have more issues. But still, some of these people are worth it. So if you decide he's worth it, realize that even in middle age, love is difficult, it'll hurt sometimes, you'll feel insecure, will need to take deep breaths, work on communication slowly, and just get to know him one day at a time when when it seems like you should 'just know' and things should 'just work'.
In general, mixed-message guys are especially challenging at any age; it's good he's
aware of the problem, and you had fun during your date-- focus on that. If you know he wants your babble/etc, try to believe him. Eventually, best case scenario, he'll learn to do more of what you need, but try to accept him regardless. The sort of woman who is all fire is going to have problems with this especially... but to some degree all introverts are like this. He doesn't sound that weird. Just be patient, and like I said, keep checking back with yourself as to whether you're still onboard.
posted by reenka at 10:40 PM on September 2, 2011
Well, the whole fire/ice thing is more of an issue, but you said you had a great time and you've only met once, so try to hold back on any serious pronouncements. To be honest, you may be child-like, but most middle-aged people are more reserved in general, take slower to warm and melt into love, not just damaged middle-aged people. Indeed, love is also hard, just like writing. So try not to take it personally: if writing and love and vulnerability seem easy to you, it's a sign of how special *you* are. Most people have more issues. But still, some of these people are worth it. So if you decide he's worth it, realize that even in middle age, love is difficult, it'll hurt sometimes, you'll feel insecure, will need to take deep breaths, work on communication slowly, and just get to know him one day at a time when when it seems like you should 'just know' and things should 'just work'.
In general, mixed-message guys are especially challenging at any age; it's good he's
aware of the problem, and you had fun during your date-- focus on that. If you know he wants your babble/etc, try to believe him. Eventually, best case scenario, he'll learn to do more of what you need, but try to accept him regardless. The sort of woman who is all fire is going to have problems with this especially... but to some degree all introverts are like this. He doesn't sound that weird. Just be patient, and like I said, keep checking back with yourself as to whether you're still onboard.
posted by reenka at 10:40 PM on September 2, 2011
He can be incredibly warm and open with me one day and then cold and distant the next. He told me he loves me but acts cool sometimes because he has a fear of abandonment after several women broke his heart in the past.
This is about as credible as the 'evil twin' story.
Don't waste another minute with this unsophisticated manipulator; he is severely damaged in ways no woman can remedy and no healthy woman would even want to.
posted by jamjam at 11:00 PM on September 2, 2011 [28 favorites]
This is about as credible as the 'evil twin' story.
Don't waste another minute with this unsophisticated manipulator; he is severely damaged in ways no woman can remedy and no healthy woman would even want to.
posted by jamjam at 11:00 PM on September 2, 2011 [28 favorites]
I know I need to earn his trust
Don't assume that anything you can do will change this dynamic or that it exists even in part because you have failed to do something. Assume you are powerless except for the power to set standards about how you'll be treated.
posted by salvia at 11:15 PM on September 2, 2011 [31 favorites]
Don't assume that anything you can do will change this dynamic or that it exists even in part because you have failed to do something. Assume you are powerless except for the power to set standards about how you'll be treated.
posted by salvia at 11:15 PM on September 2, 2011 [31 favorites]
You've only had one date, and you're already having issues. Ditch him. This isn't going to make you happy. (And by the way, you're not smitten with him, you're smitten with some idea of him.)
posted by Perodicticus potto at 11:31 PM on September 2, 2011 [8 favorites]
posted by Perodicticus potto at 11:31 PM on September 2, 2011 [8 favorites]
Let's give him the benefit of the doubt for a moment and assume that he isn't married (although, honestly, he sounds married):
You don't sound like someone who wants, or could be begrudgingly happy with a partner who's alternately warm then cold. Forget about whether you're comparatively childlike, or how much work he has to do to overcome his fears; just ask yourself a couple questions —
1) Can you get your emotional needs met by this man, as he is right now?
2) Does your natural approach to relationships make him feel comfortable?
If the answer to either of those questions is at least a "not really", then it's time to rethink things.
posted by thisjax at 11:46 PM on September 2, 2011 [5 favorites]
You don't sound like someone who wants, or could be begrudgingly happy with a partner who's alternately warm then cold. Forget about whether you're comparatively childlike, or how much work he has to do to overcome his fears; just ask yourself a couple questions —
1) Can you get your emotional needs met by this man, as he is right now?
2) Does your natural approach to relationships make him feel comfortable?
If the answer to either of those questions is at least a "not really", then it's time to rethink things.
posted by thisjax at 11:46 PM on September 2, 2011 [5 favorites]
He can be incredibly warm and open with me one day and then cold and distant the next. He told me he loves me but acts cool sometimes because he has a fear of abandonment after several women broke his heart in the past ... He also told me his father would be warm then icy to him and his siblings growing up.
This is actually pretty much irrelevant. It sounds like you need more consistency from someone you are in a relationship with, and there's nothing wrong with that! But it doesn't sound like you're going to get that from him. It doesn't really matter if it's because of his childhood or his past relationships.
I know I need to earn his trust ... I know he wants assurance from me that I love him.
This sounds really unfair to you. He wants "assurance" but won't give it to you.
posted by the essence of class and fanciness at 11:48 PM on September 2, 2011
This is actually pretty much irrelevant. It sounds like you need more consistency from someone you are in a relationship with, and there's nothing wrong with that! But it doesn't sound like you're going to get that from him. It doesn't really matter if it's because of his childhood or his past relationships.
I know I need to earn his trust ... I know he wants assurance from me that I love him.
This sounds really unfair to you. He wants "assurance" but won't give it to you.
posted by the essence of class and fanciness at 11:48 PM on September 2, 2011
Dump him.
Things like "I need to earn his trust" and "He can be incredibly warm and open with me one day and then cold and distant the next" are two huge red flags that are not going to get better with time.
1. earning his trust - is externalizing his emotional issues - he needs to work through his emotional issues. You do not need to 'earn his trust' because you did not betray him. The goal of earning his trust is one you will discover you will never achieve. That's because he needs to fix the damage, and only then will he be able to trust.
2. Hot/cold - sounds like he is socializing you to emotional abuse. He is hot, you are enraptured. He is cold, you become anxious and insecure wondering what you did wrong, begging him to forgive you. In both cases you end up in constant pursuit/obsession.
Both of these are toxic dynamics. The fact that his father also did this to him, suggests that actually its not the result of these women doing him wrong, but rather a toxic dynamic that he learned from his parents and which he has replicated in all his relationships. Trust me: Get out now - its not going to end well.
posted by zia at 11:49 PM on September 2, 2011 [38 favorites]
Things like "I need to earn his trust" and "He can be incredibly warm and open with me one day and then cold and distant the next" are two huge red flags that are not going to get better with time.
1. earning his trust - is externalizing his emotional issues - he needs to work through his emotional issues. You do not need to 'earn his trust' because you did not betray him. The goal of earning his trust is one you will discover you will never achieve. That's because he needs to fix the damage, and only then will he be able to trust.
2. Hot/cold - sounds like he is socializing you to emotional abuse. He is hot, you are enraptured. He is cold, you become anxious and insecure wondering what you did wrong, begging him to forgive you. In both cases you end up in constant pursuit/obsession.
Both of these are toxic dynamics. The fact that his father also did this to him, suggests that actually its not the result of these women doing him wrong, but rather a toxic dynamic that he learned from his parents and which he has replicated in all his relationships. Trust me: Get out now - its not going to end well.
posted by zia at 11:49 PM on September 2, 2011 [38 favorites]
There's an early David Mamet movie from the '80s called House of Games. Without giving too much away, there's a scene in which Character A perceives that they're being conned by Character B, at which point Character A shakes their head and says, "oh, you're a bad pony, and I'm not going to bet on you."
You are dating a Bad Pony. To wit:
He can be incredibly warm and open with me one day and then cold and distant the next.
He's establishing that his moods rule -- they trump basic consideration and manners in general, and your feelings and needs in particular. This keeps you emotionally in thrall to him, and on eggshells from day to day. Major red flag.
He told me he loves me but acts cool sometimes because he has a fear of abandonment after several women broke his heart in the past. He also told me his father would be warm then icy to him and his siblings growing up.
Oh, this is a good one: he has juuust enough psychological insight to blame the origins of his problems on others, yet evidently lacks the ability to heal those wounds in order to behave in a healthier manner. Fascinating. This is a typical ploy of some abusers: they'll basically own up to their dysfunctional behavior (whether it's jealousy, coldness, etc.) while simultaneously deflecting all responsibility... which means that you'll never have grounds to complain in the future, no matter how terrible he acts, because after all: you were warned, right? He is stacking the deck with Get Out Of Jail Free cards, all for himself.
I am smitten by him and never less than tender and loving with him, so it hurts when he sends me a monosyllabic response to a message where I’ve opened my heart.
Of course it hurts: it makes it feel so much better when he deigns to be kind to you. Don't think he's not aware of this.
I know I need to earn his trust, but how do I deal with this until we get there?
To quote zia: "You do not need to 'earn his trust' because you did not betray him. The goal of earning his trust is one you will discover you will never achieve." The fact that he's already put you in a position -- after exactly one date! -- of essentially having to grovel for his favor is exceedingly dangerous.
When he is like this I feel like I’m burdening him with my messages and calls. On the other hand, I know he wants assurance from me that I love him.
Gives you no emotional reassurance or constancy, yet demands emotional reassurance and constancy in return: another hallmark of emotional abusiveness.
What should I do? Play it cool or be my enraptured self?
I think you should consider very carefully that this is not -- in any way, shape, or form -- anything that bears even the faintest resemblance to the beginning of a healthy relationship with a potential for a loving and satisfying future.
In other words, I don't think you should act cool or act enraptured; each of these options puts him at the center of your decisions. Instead, I urge you to put yourself first and act out of self-respect and self-love... two qualities that he's betting that you don't have much of. Please: prove him wrong. Walk away.
He's a bad pony, and you do NOT want to bet on him.
posted by scody at 12:40 AM on September 3, 2011 [157 favorites]
You are dating a Bad Pony. To wit:
He can be incredibly warm and open with me one day and then cold and distant the next.
He's establishing that his moods rule -- they trump basic consideration and manners in general, and your feelings and needs in particular. This keeps you emotionally in thrall to him, and on eggshells from day to day. Major red flag.
He told me he loves me but acts cool sometimes because he has a fear of abandonment after several women broke his heart in the past. He also told me his father would be warm then icy to him and his siblings growing up.
Oh, this is a good one: he has juuust enough psychological insight to blame the origins of his problems on others, yet evidently lacks the ability to heal those wounds in order to behave in a healthier manner. Fascinating. This is a typical ploy of some abusers: they'll basically own up to their dysfunctional behavior (whether it's jealousy, coldness, etc.) while simultaneously deflecting all responsibility... which means that you'll never have grounds to complain in the future, no matter how terrible he acts, because after all: you were warned, right? He is stacking the deck with Get Out Of Jail Free cards, all for himself.
I am smitten by him and never less than tender and loving with him, so it hurts when he sends me a monosyllabic response to a message where I’ve opened my heart.
Of course it hurts: it makes it feel so much better when he deigns to be kind to you. Don't think he's not aware of this.
I know I need to earn his trust, but how do I deal with this until we get there?
To quote zia: "You do not need to 'earn his trust' because you did not betray him. The goal of earning his trust is one you will discover you will never achieve." The fact that he's already put you in a position -- after exactly one date! -- of essentially having to grovel for his favor is exceedingly dangerous.
When he is like this I feel like I’m burdening him with my messages and calls. On the other hand, I know he wants assurance from me that I love him.
Gives you no emotional reassurance or constancy, yet demands emotional reassurance and constancy in return: another hallmark of emotional abusiveness.
What should I do? Play it cool or be my enraptured self?
I think you should consider very carefully that this is not -- in any way, shape, or form -- anything that bears even the faintest resemblance to the beginning of a healthy relationship with a potential for a loving and satisfying future.
In other words, I don't think you should act cool or act enraptured; each of these options puts him at the center of your decisions. Instead, I urge you to put yourself first and act out of self-respect and self-love... two qualities that he's betting that you don't have much of. Please: prove him wrong. Walk away.
He's a bad pony, and you do NOT want to bet on him.
posted by scody at 12:40 AM on September 3, 2011 [157 favorites]
Two more things on preview:
1. Another red flag is if he is always the victim (which is how your post reads). Ask him what his role was in the shortness of all his relationships and in the ex-girlfiends who broke his heart. What did he contribute to these relationships that caused them to go wrong? What has he learned? What does he do differently? Is he working on his issues (e.g., taking responsibility for his part) or is it all someone else's fault?
2. Although you describe yourself as childish, I can't help wondering where that characterization came from. Did it come out of the conversations between the two of you?
If it came from how you see yourself, you are doing yourself an injustice. You are asking very adult thoughtful questions. The only thing even remotely childish is that you are giving your beaux a lot of trust and taking him at his word - without asking careful, thoughtful questions about what he is representing to you as his past and his reality.
If it came from your discussions with him and is a characterization that arose out of the contrast between the two of you, its part of the abuse dynamic where you are root of all the problems (and solutions) in the relationship. This results in his issues never getting discussed, it becomes all about you, and what you have done wrong. It starts with what did I do to make him act coldly towards me... what did I do to make him be so terse (is he angry)... what did I do to make him stalk out of the room without talking to me... what did I do that made him yell at me... (and maybe) what did I do to make him hit me... Its never his fault and it starts now.
In fact I suspect you are the adult one in the relationship. With your willingness to accept responsibilty for your actions in the relationship, and to compromise, to explain yourself, to be present. You deserve better: better than someone who is at best emotionally compromised and at worse, emotionally abusive.
posted by zia at 12:46 AM on September 3, 2011 [7 favorites]
1. Another red flag is if he is always the victim (which is how your post reads). Ask him what his role was in the shortness of all his relationships and in the ex-girlfiends who broke his heart. What did he contribute to these relationships that caused them to go wrong? What has he learned? What does he do differently? Is he working on his issues (e.g., taking responsibility for his part) or is it all someone else's fault?
2. Although you describe yourself as childish, I can't help wondering where that characterization came from. Did it come out of the conversations between the two of you?
If it came from how you see yourself, you are doing yourself an injustice. You are asking very adult thoughtful questions. The only thing even remotely childish is that you are giving your beaux a lot of trust and taking him at his word - without asking careful, thoughtful questions about what he is representing to you as his past and his reality.
If it came from your discussions with him and is a characterization that arose out of the contrast between the two of you, its part of the abuse dynamic where you are root of all the problems (and solutions) in the relationship. This results in his issues never getting discussed, it becomes all about you, and what you have done wrong. It starts with what did I do to make him act coldly towards me... what did I do to make him be so terse (is he angry)... what did I do to make him stalk out of the room without talking to me... what did I do that made him yell at me... (and maybe) what did I do to make him hit me... Its never his fault and it starts now.
In fact I suspect you are the adult one in the relationship. With your willingness to accept responsibilty for your actions in the relationship, and to compromise, to explain yourself, to be present. You deserve better: better than someone who is at best emotionally compromised and at worse, emotionally abusive.
posted by zia at 12:46 AM on September 3, 2011 [7 favorites]
At age 51, one should hope that a person does not treat other people in ways that were acknowledged to be deleterious to them. At this point, the "Well, this is how I was treated in my childhood, ergo I treat you thusly in the present" holds zero traction. 51? No.
Be curious about why you are willing to centralize him in your emotional priorities right now. Notice when this willingness outpaces that of the imperative to meet and know your own needs. What do you need? You need someone who can match you, toe to toe, emotionally and with an open heart. Your needs are never to be subsumed by another person's encumbrances. I say this because, potentially, once you realize your needs do matter and he's incapable of meeting them, you could be feeling utterly drained and used by the interaction with this person.
Figure out why you are attracted to this person right now. Do you really want to play that not particularly rewarding game? The game of zero sums, lofty, labyrinthine chessboard mental gymnastics of idealistic redemption one person at a time, and lack of reality, that is to say somehow missing what is right there in front of you. Learn to anticipate those knots before they are tied, so that you aren't left with a Gordian tangle on your hands. You can cut it, sure, but you can envision the tangle now and see that perhaps that's not what you actually want.
You deserve someone who is at least as emotionally intelligent, warm, and present as you are. You will feel much less anxiety and much less ambivalence and self-doubt when this happens. This person is not worth your energy, truly. Or, to put it less obliquely, he cannot offer what you need. And he cannot meet you where you need to be met. It is so obvious in what you are writing.
I hope you find someone who is as skilled in love and communication as you are, and someone with whom you can feel trust, because consistency builds that, and this isn't it. You'll find intimacy. Not finding or "succeeding" in creating it with this particular person in question says nothing about your ability to be intimate or create meaningful connections. I have a feeling you're very skillful in being close. Find people who can meet you there.
posted by simulacra at 1:44 AM on September 3, 2011 [4 favorites]
Be curious about why you are willing to centralize him in your emotional priorities right now. Notice when this willingness outpaces that of the imperative to meet and know your own needs. What do you need? You need someone who can match you, toe to toe, emotionally and with an open heart. Your needs are never to be subsumed by another person's encumbrances. I say this because, potentially, once you realize your needs do matter and he's incapable of meeting them, you could be feeling utterly drained and used by the interaction with this person.
Figure out why you are attracted to this person right now. Do you really want to play that not particularly rewarding game? The game of zero sums, lofty, labyrinthine chessboard mental gymnastics of idealistic redemption one person at a time, and lack of reality, that is to say somehow missing what is right there in front of you. Learn to anticipate those knots before they are tied, so that you aren't left with a Gordian tangle on your hands. You can cut it, sure, but you can envision the tangle now and see that perhaps that's not what you actually want.
You deserve someone who is at least as emotionally intelligent, warm, and present as you are. You will feel much less anxiety and much less ambivalence and self-doubt when this happens. This person is not worth your energy, truly. Or, to put it less obliquely, he cannot offer what you need. And he cannot meet you where you need to be met. It is so obvious in what you are writing.
I hope you find someone who is as skilled in love and communication as you are, and someone with whom you can feel trust, because consistency builds that, and this isn't it. You'll find intimacy. Not finding or "succeeding" in creating it with this particular person in question says nothing about your ability to be intimate or create meaningful connections. I have a feeling you're very skillful in being close. Find people who can meet you there.
posted by simulacra at 1:44 AM on September 3, 2011 [4 favorites]
He told me he loves me but acts cool sometimes because he has a fear of abandonment after several women broke his heart in the past.
This is bullshit. You're in your 40s. Surely you've had your heart broken by now? Do you turn hot and cold with people you love?
He also told me his father would be warm then icy to him and his siblings growing up.
Does he complain about his father doing this and then do the same to you? Please just trust me and RUN. If in 50 years he hasn't learned how to break bad habits and still blames his father, things are not going to change.
it hurts when he sends me a monosyllabic response to a message where I’ve opened my heart
Open your heart to someone who opens his to you. DTMFA.
posted by motsque at 1:46 AM on September 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
This is bullshit. You're in your 40s. Surely you've had your heart broken by now? Do you turn hot and cold with people you love?
He also told me his father would be warm then icy to him and his siblings growing up.
Does he complain about his father doing this and then do the same to you? Please just trust me and RUN. If in 50 years he hasn't learned how to break bad habits and still blames his father, things are not going to change.
it hurts when he sends me a monosyllabic response to a message where I’ve opened my heart
Open your heart to someone who opens his to you. DTMFA.
posted by motsque at 1:46 AM on September 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
And, I thought you might appreciate this, too. (via)
posted by simulacra at 2:03 AM on September 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by simulacra at 2:03 AM on September 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
My dear Anonymous, you are asking here because you know that this isn't right. Pretty much everyone here is going to tell you that it isn't right, but you don't need us. You already know.
I'll just say that when you pull away (and I hope you do), there's a good chance that he will redouble efforts, because it seems like he's probably testing boundaries now. Once he finds the break point, he'll reset and reboot and start again to draw you into his control dynamic.
*Invokes Boiling Frog Card*
posted by taz at 3:16 AM on September 3, 2011 [9 favorites]
I'll just say that when you pull away (and I hope you do), there's a good chance that he will redouble efforts, because it seems like he's probably testing boundaries now. Once he finds the break point, he'll reset and reboot and start again to draw you into his control dynamic.
*Invokes Boiling Frog Card*
posted by taz at 3:16 AM on September 3, 2011 [9 favorites]
My two cents: print out the comments by zia and scody. Hang them on your bathroom mirror. Read every time you brush your teeth for the next two weeks. Done.
posted by likeso at 3:26 AM on September 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by likeso at 3:26 AM on September 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
taz: "I'll just say that when you pull away (and I hope you do), there's a good chance that he will redouble efforts, because it seems like he's probably testing boundaries now. Once he finds the break point, he'll reset and reboot and start again to draw you into his control dynamic.
*Invokes Boiling Frog Card*"
Excellent advice here. I hope you take it, end the relationship and make a point to end all contact permanently because this guy is going to pull out all the stops to lure you back in. Do not engage.
posted by kinetic at 3:28 AM on September 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
*Invokes Boiling Frog Card*"
Excellent advice here. I hope you take it, end the relationship and make a point to end all contact permanently because this guy is going to pull out all the stops to lure you back in. Do not engage.
posted by kinetic at 3:28 AM on September 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
Two more cents: print out the comments by taz and kinetic, as well.
posted by likeso at 3:34 AM on September 3, 2011
posted by likeso at 3:34 AM on September 3, 2011
I know I need to earn his trust,
No you don't. You didn't break him, it's not up to you to fix him. He needs to deal with his issues, you can't overcome them for him.
posted by headnsouth at 4:19 AM on September 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
No you don't. You didn't break him, it's not up to you to fix him. He needs to deal with his issues, you can't overcome them for him.
posted by headnsouth at 4:19 AM on September 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
He also told me his father would be warm then icy to him and his siblings growing up.
He knows how well it works, then.
posted by tel3path at 4:52 AM on September 3, 2011 [6 favorites]
He knows how well it works, then.
posted by tel3path at 4:52 AM on September 3, 2011 [6 favorites]
1. Another red flag is if he is always the victim (which is how your post reads). Ask him what his role was in the shortness of all his relationships and in the ex-girlfiends who broke his heart.
This.
All those other women broke his heart? Soon he'll be telling someone how you did as well. You are attracted to the implied sensitivity of his victimhood. But these others were taken in like you, only to find out he, like so many victims, is actually not as innocent as he (sincerely, in that he believes his own stories) claims.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:46 AM on September 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
This.
All those other women broke his heart? Soon he'll be telling someone how you did as well. You are attracted to the implied sensitivity of his victimhood. But these others were taken in like you, only to find out he, like so many victims, is actually not as innocent as he (sincerely, in that he believes his own stories) claims.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:46 AM on September 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
(a somewhat childish)
Who called you childish? You sound like a nice person.
I know I need to earn his trust
Just as he needs to earn yours. It's part of how relationships develop.
Pay attention to his actions. It sounds like he is emotionally volatile and manipulative. He doesn't seem to treat you well. I think you deserve a better relationship.
posted by theora55 at 6:54 AM on September 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
Who called you childish? You sound like a nice person.
I know I need to earn his trust
Just as he needs to earn yours. It's part of how relationships develop.
Pay attention to his actions. It sounds like he is emotionally volatile and manipulative. He doesn't seem to treat you well. I think you deserve a better relationship.
posted by theora55 at 6:54 AM on September 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
What should I do? Play it cool or be my enraptured self?
When he is nice to you, go ahead and be enraptured. There's nothing wrong with that.
What you should do is not reward cold behaviour with more attention and warmth. If he's ignoring you, take a step back, don't lean in closer.
Here is what I think the likely results will be if you do that:
- he will realize he can't manipulate you and fuck off out of your life, probably insulting you in the process;
- he will hang around and be nice to you for a while, but will build up a reservoir of seething anger at your "enraptured" behaviour which he will convince you is insufferable and "childish" and should be suppressed, so you'll try to do that, and eventually he will backhand you because you want to put ketchup on your fries, or something.
Here's what I don't think the likely results will be if you do that:
- he realizes that cold behaviour isn't much fun and isn't going to get him a healthy and joyous relationship with a wonderfully enraptured person like you, so he stops being a cold bastard and shares in the joy of your love thang.
Of course, he may have the capacity to change, but it will have to be with someone new that he hasn't established a mean-and-sweet cycle of behaviour with. If you dump him, there's a nonzero chance that he'll wake up and think "egad! I lost another one! I'm the common factor here! I must change so that my next relationship will be good!" But unfortunately there is no point in hoping he'll do that with you.
Sorry to be so very very negative and blunt, I know you were enjoying yourself and here's me coming along and pissing on your chips (to continue the fried potato metaphor). But honestly, I think it's better you get this from me than from him. Many of us here have already met this guy, and we know what he's going to do next.
posted by tel3path at 7:03 AM on September 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
When he is nice to you, go ahead and be enraptured. There's nothing wrong with that.
What you should do is not reward cold behaviour with more attention and warmth. If he's ignoring you, take a step back, don't lean in closer.
Here is what I think the likely results will be if you do that:
- he will realize he can't manipulate you and fuck off out of your life, probably insulting you in the process;
- he will hang around and be nice to you for a while, but will build up a reservoir of seething anger at your "enraptured" behaviour which he will convince you is insufferable and "childish" and should be suppressed, so you'll try to do that, and eventually he will backhand you because you want to put ketchup on your fries, or something.
Here's what I don't think the likely results will be if you do that:
- he realizes that cold behaviour isn't much fun and isn't going to get him a healthy and joyous relationship with a wonderfully enraptured person like you, so he stops being a cold bastard and shares in the joy of your love thang.
Of course, he may have the capacity to change, but it will have to be with someone new that he hasn't established a mean-and-sweet cycle of behaviour with. If you dump him, there's a nonzero chance that he'll wake up and think "egad! I lost another one! I'm the common factor here! I must change so that my next relationship will be good!" But unfortunately there is no point in hoping he'll do that with you.
Sorry to be so very very negative and blunt, I know you were enjoying yourself and here's me coming along and pissing on your chips (to continue the fried potato metaphor). But honestly, I think it's better you get this from me than from him. Many of us here have already met this guy, and we know what he's going to do next.
posted by tel3path at 7:03 AM on September 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
Ooh, ooh, I know this. "one amazing real-life date" = Neither are you in love. Calling it love cheapens the word.
He's some guy you're emotionally intimate with on the Internet, but you don't know in person. It's easy to be honest with someone who isn't there.
posted by filmgeek at 7:07 AM on September 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
He's some guy you're emotionally intimate with on the Internet, but you don't know in person. It's easy to be honest with someone who isn't there.
posted by filmgeek at 7:07 AM on September 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
move on, this man is married. you don't need this rollercoaster. i bet there's better out there and in your own town/city. this guy is a nightmare.
posted by BlueMartini7 at 9:25 AM on September 3, 2011
posted by BlueMartini7 at 9:25 AM on September 3, 2011
I had a talk with Scody yesterday talking about some issues regarding on-line relating.....
My feeling is that no matter what is said it is very, very rare that on-line relating is an even playing field.
I fall prey to thinking that it is. I am guessing that it has something to do with how our brains process information. There is something that invites a "wide-openess" It also provides a good wall for others to hide behind. Whether this is a personal issue or "a part of the beast." I am still unsure. It's probably both. My feeling is that we all need to go through one "cult" experience in our life. This includes situations like this.
While I was taken aback initially by scody's response once I read that most of relating was done on-line I second her read on this.
What I am saying is that this event was very very, skewed from the git-go.
It's not the hill you want to die on!
posted by goalyeehah at 9:49 AM on September 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
My feeling is that no matter what is said it is very, very rare that on-line relating is an even playing field.
I fall prey to thinking that it is. I am guessing that it has something to do with how our brains process information. There is something that invites a "wide-openess" It also provides a good wall for others to hide behind. Whether this is a personal issue or "a part of the beast." I am still unsure. It's probably both. My feeling is that we all need to go through one "cult" experience in our life. This includes situations like this.
While I was taken aback initially by scody's response once I read that most of relating was done on-line I second her read on this.
What I am saying is that this event was very very, skewed from the git-go.
It's not the hill you want to die on!
posted by goalyeehah at 9:49 AM on September 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
"Don't waste another minute with this unsophisticated manipulator; he is severely damaged in ways no woman can remedy and no healthy woman would even want to."
It's called "withholding," and it is a tactic very very emotionally damaged people use to trap you and manipulate you. It works because it keeps you working so hard to make the relationship work for the withholder, you don't have time to think deeply about your own needs. You feel validated, and then debased, over and over again. It's an emotional hamster wheel.
People who do this do NOT mean you love, light, and happiness. People who do this are in direct competition with you for dominance and control in the relationship - and you will lose against them EVERY time until you get completely out of the relationship. Full Stop.
RUN.
posted by jbenben at 4:26 PM on September 3, 2011 [11 favorites]
It's called "withholding," and it is a tactic very very emotionally damaged people use to trap you and manipulate you. It works because it keeps you working so hard to make the relationship work for the withholder, you don't have time to think deeply about your own needs. You feel validated, and then debased, over and over again. It's an emotional hamster wheel.
People who do this do NOT mean you love, light, and happiness. People who do this are in direct competition with you for dominance and control in the relationship - and you will lose against them EVERY time until you get completely out of the relationship. Full Stop.
RUN.
posted by jbenben at 4:26 PM on September 3, 2011 [11 favorites]
Actually it's called "withholding" while he's blowing cold. The overall pattern of "blowing hot and cold" is called "intermittent reinforcement".
I say this not to be pedantic, but to give you some interesting keywords to Google the night away. I think you will find some fascinating things.
posted by tel3path at 4:43 PM on September 3, 2011 [7 favorites]
I say this not to be pedantic, but to give you some interesting keywords to Google the night away. I think you will find some fascinating things.
posted by tel3path at 4:43 PM on September 3, 2011 [7 favorites]
What tel3path said. You're a rat--or a pigeon, if you prefer--in a skinner box and you're on a variable schedule of reinforcement. It is the most powerful way to get you to press that bar again and again. Sometimes, you get an emotional reward pellet from interacting with him. Sometimes, you get nada or worse. And you can't quite predict which it will be. This leads to you ferociously pressing the bar again and again, hoping for that reward. He's gotcha.
I have been you. I fear you won't take any advice that includes leaving him, not only because you are enamored but also because you have emotional needs that you are trying to fill through him. My very, very strong intuition is that you are trying to fix past relationships, most likely from your childhood, through him. If only you can get him to be that consistently loving partner, then you can wrest back control that was taken from you, fix everything, and have the happy ending. My guess is, men who treat you right consistently won't have the same emotional appeal.
Again, I was, and am still to some extent, you, emotionally. Being the rescuer in romantic relationships appeals to me. But it never, ever works. Never. 0% of the time. And the rescuer's needs don't get met while they're going around doing all that caring about everyone else's needs. You are clearly in that category because you talk so much about earning his trust and making him feel loved, and wildly downplay your own needs in the process.
Like several other people said, this relationship being mostly online means you don't really know him well. It's too early to be so enamored. Part of what you are enamored with (a large part) is the emotional buttons he pushes in you, by treating you inconsistently and placing you in a supplicant position. You are childish, in that you are playing the role of an abused child trying to somehow be "good" enough to earn love instead of abuse from the people who are supposed to love you.
Please leave him. If you absolutely won't do that, please at least date other men. In person. So your focus is not exclusively on this emotional drain.
posted by parrot_person at 9:45 PM on September 3, 2011 [9 favorites]
I have been you. I fear you won't take any advice that includes leaving him, not only because you are enamored but also because you have emotional needs that you are trying to fill through him. My very, very strong intuition is that you are trying to fix past relationships, most likely from your childhood, through him. If only you can get him to be that consistently loving partner, then you can wrest back control that was taken from you, fix everything, and have the happy ending. My guess is, men who treat you right consistently won't have the same emotional appeal.
Again, I was, and am still to some extent, you, emotionally. Being the rescuer in romantic relationships appeals to me. But it never, ever works. Never. 0% of the time. And the rescuer's needs don't get met while they're going around doing all that caring about everyone else's needs. You are clearly in that category because you talk so much about earning his trust and making him feel loved, and wildly downplay your own needs in the process.
Like several other people said, this relationship being mostly online means you don't really know him well. It's too early to be so enamored. Part of what you are enamored with (a large part) is the emotional buttons he pushes in you, by treating you inconsistently and placing you in a supplicant position. You are childish, in that you are playing the role of an abused child trying to somehow be "good" enough to earn love instead of abuse from the people who are supposed to love you.
Please leave him. If you absolutely won't do that, please at least date other men. In person. So your focus is not exclusively on this emotional drain.
posted by parrot_person at 9:45 PM on September 3, 2011 [9 favorites]
Mod note: From the OP:
Thank you all for your incredibly insightful analysis. I have indeed been the rat/pigeon in a Skinner box.posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:20 AM on September 4, 2011 [13 favorites]
Now you've said it I recognize the pattern of intermittent reinforcement from my one previous brief relationship that ended badly for me. It happened just last year and it was with someone who had similarly said he'd had his heart broken and found it hard to trust women.
The last straw was this morning. I had sent his daughter (he is a single dad) a somewhat pricey but simple electronic toy which arrived two days ago. He did not acknowledge that it was received. When I asked about it this morning he asked me how it worked because he had not read the instructions. For a second I felt guilty for burdening him with a gift that would take a little time for him to figure out, but then I became angry when I viewed this in light of everything you've said. He has only thanked me once for a gift I sent, and it was the first one. Since then, over the course of the past two and a half months I sent four other gifts, little things. He never thanked me and would acknowledge them only when I asked.
Much as it hurts, I am going to cancel our next date - I was going to travel to his city for the weekend. He is not worth me. Thank you for the eye-opener, you are amazing.
Well done. Oh, well done, OP! Thank you for listening to your own great instincts, and allowing us to chime in. :) I wish you all the best.
posted by likeso at 8:37 AM on September 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by likeso at 8:37 AM on September 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
GOOOD!!! GREAT!!!!!!!
In my experience, manners are very telling. Very. Rude people shouldn't get the pleasure of your company!
Applause!
posted by tel3path at 9:34 AM on September 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
In my experience, manners are very telling. Very. Rude people shouldn't get the pleasure of your company!
Applause!
posted by tel3path at 9:34 AM on September 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
Good for you, Anon! You're doing the right thing.
As others have said, don't be surprised (and don't fall for it) if he goes into Wonderful Mode when you cancel on him, in an attempt to woo you back. When that fails, he will probably go into Attack Mode and denigrate you. Don't take one bit of it seriously or personally; it is entirely a reflection of who he is, not who you are. Let his words, whether sweet or cruel, just slide right off you -- if you get tempted to re-engage, just remember the pigeon in the Skinner box. The sooner you move on from him, the sooner you'll be able to meet someone who will genuinely appreciate all the good qualities you have to offer.
posted by scody at 11:05 AM on September 4, 2011 [7 favorites]
As others have said, don't be surprised (and don't fall for it) if he goes into Wonderful Mode when you cancel on him, in an attempt to woo you back. When that fails, he will probably go into Attack Mode and denigrate you. Don't take one bit of it seriously or personally; it is entirely a reflection of who he is, not who you are. Let his words, whether sweet or cruel, just slide right off you -- if you get tempted to re-engage, just remember the pigeon in the Skinner box. The sooner you move on from him, the sooner you'll be able to meet someone who will genuinely appreciate all the good qualities you have to offer.
posted by scody at 11:05 AM on September 4, 2011 [7 favorites]
You've only met him in person once. I don't care what people think about "online dating", in my personal opinion, it doesn't matter if you've been "dating" online for years and think he's a prince, you don't know him. I would probably back off or at least back off the online business and take things slow, and in person. And in the future, I would do my best to make sure I didn't become "smitten" with someone I barely know and have only met once. That sounds more like projection than actual true feelings.
posted by 1000monkeys at 12:38 PM on September 4, 2011
posted by 1000monkeys at 12:38 PM on September 4, 2011
"As others have said, don't be surprised (and don't fall for it) if he goes into Wonderful Mode when you cancel on him, in an attempt to woo you back. When that fails, he will probably go into Attack Mode and denigrate you."
Emphasis, mine.
Only repeated scody because I've experienced this EXACT pattern.
Good for you, BTW!
posted by jbenben at 6:37 PM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Emphasis, mine.
Only repeated scody because I've experienced this EXACT pattern.
Good for you, BTW!
posted by jbenben at 6:37 PM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Oh and. I know everybody says you met him once so don't really know him. That's true to a point. But let's not forget that his online behaviour was revealing enough that we could smell a rat just from your description of it! Oh, these masters of deception, not.
posted by tel3path at 11:10 PM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by tel3path at 11:10 PM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
So glad about your decision, Anon! Savor every minute and hour stolen back from this happily aborted infliction of self doubt and misery.
posted by taz at 1:09 AM on September 5, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by taz at 1:09 AM on September 5, 2011 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Also, perspective: intense or not online, you've only had one real-world date. "Enraptured" shouldn't realistically be a description of your feelings. You need to back off for your own health and safety, until you've actually gotten to know this person better in...well, in person.
posted by davejay at 9:30 PM on September 2, 2011 [8 favorites]