Love and cleaning toilets
August 29, 2011 7:36 PM Subscribe
How do you balance housework as a couple, and what do you think of our arrangement? I personally don't like it.
As usual with anonymous questions...sorry for the length.
So, I am Mary and I'm married to Joe. Joe is a full time student of a difficult, Math-y discipline. I have a full time job. We are BROKE, so hiring a housemaid is not an option. In our three-year marriage, we have taught each other many things, and we always talk about our disagreements and worries like adults. But there's one problem that just can't get resolved...
Joe comes from an "old fashioned" household, to the point that if he cooks something, he tells me not to tell his parents because they'll be mad he behaved like a woman. To be fair, Joe is adorable, sweet and very easygoing. He also has never ever done any chores in his pre-Mary life.
I (Mary) come from an ultra feminist house, in which my father and mother would share chores and be completely equal. In fact, we would all share the chores like a good socialist home. Doing nothing while somebody else worked was the height of disgrace (this only applied to chores, of course, not hobbies or school). Joe has always known this about me.
So, Joe and I lived in wedded bliss, until I detected a creeping expectation that I, the vagina owner, should obviously take care of everything in the house, and Joe just had to sit down being the paterfamilias. Having a brain, I realized of course that this wasn't Joe being evil, just following up on his family tradition. Which is why I sat down with him, explained why I think men and women are equal, and told him that until he could come up with irrefutable proof that women are supposed to do the chores, he would have to split the work with me. He not only accepted, but actually agreed with me. In theory, anyway.
In practice, I have to have a talk with him at least once every month. I tell him that since it's only the two of us, if he doesn't do his part then it falls on me. He likes living in a clean, neat place, but he doesn't seem to make the connection between regular cleaning and the result of a clean home. I'm sorry I sound a little bitter, and really he's very smart, but I feel like a maid sometimes. I cook every day, I try to make healthy things from scratch (homemade pasta; low fat roasted meats; good salads and a nice cake for the weekdays, since he likes sweets; sushi on the weekends; and generally things that make him happy, and I'm happy because of it). I also sweep and mop the floors every other day, and do the dishes every day. Per agreement, Joe does the toilets (when I remind him), laundry (when I tell him to) and vacuuming (usually after I remind him a million times). He also takes out the trash(when it's overflowing) and addresses our monthly checks (very responsibly and on time, actually). Sometimes I wonder if I should just open a can of tuna for dinner and relax. I do think that the fact that I take my part so seriously doesn't mean he should...I'm confused.
But, I really don't like having to remind him of everything. It's like it falls under my jurisdiction just because I'm a woman. Cooking, washing, floor cleaning is done almost every day. He does his stuff when I'm about to do it because I need clean underwear, for example. I also worry about the example this could give to our not-yet-conceived children. We both want our children to respect gender equality. I guess my problem is just the fact that I have to chase him around like he's my 18 year old disorganized son. He leaves things out of place, doesn't tidy up after himself, leaves (kind of serious) things for the last minute, expects me to help him with homework and of course to have the energy to have sex at the end of the day. I want him to do things on his own accord. I don't like him to think he "helps me" with the chores, because there isn't a law that says that chores are MY responsibility. I don't know how to make him see that he doesn't "help" me...they are OUR chores. I feel like all this resentment and wondering affects our sex life, too. For the first time in years we're having sex like three times a week...not intentionally, I'm just tired and kind of offended by this whole thing, actually.
**Am I exaggerating?
**If you are in a couple, how do you keep both house loads fair? Can you give specific examples of what each person does? Can you give your assessment on our distribution?
**Am I hurting him for trying to change his habits? I am very careful to ask him if he agrees with my point of view, and I would hate for him to do something against his will...
**Do you have any other advice for me?
As usual with anonymous questions...sorry for the length.
So, I am Mary and I'm married to Joe. Joe is a full time student of a difficult, Math-y discipline. I have a full time job. We are BROKE, so hiring a housemaid is not an option. In our three-year marriage, we have taught each other many things, and we always talk about our disagreements and worries like adults. But there's one problem that just can't get resolved...
Joe comes from an "old fashioned" household, to the point that if he cooks something, he tells me not to tell his parents because they'll be mad he behaved like a woman. To be fair, Joe is adorable, sweet and very easygoing. He also has never ever done any chores in his pre-Mary life.
I (Mary) come from an ultra feminist house, in which my father and mother would share chores and be completely equal. In fact, we would all share the chores like a good socialist home. Doing nothing while somebody else worked was the height of disgrace (this only applied to chores, of course, not hobbies or school). Joe has always known this about me.
So, Joe and I lived in wedded bliss, until I detected a creeping expectation that I, the vagina owner, should obviously take care of everything in the house, and Joe just had to sit down being the paterfamilias. Having a brain, I realized of course that this wasn't Joe being evil, just following up on his family tradition. Which is why I sat down with him, explained why I think men and women are equal, and told him that until he could come up with irrefutable proof that women are supposed to do the chores, he would have to split the work with me. He not only accepted, but actually agreed with me. In theory, anyway.
In practice, I have to have a talk with him at least once every month. I tell him that since it's only the two of us, if he doesn't do his part then it falls on me. He likes living in a clean, neat place, but he doesn't seem to make the connection between regular cleaning and the result of a clean home. I'm sorry I sound a little bitter, and really he's very smart, but I feel like a maid sometimes. I cook every day, I try to make healthy things from scratch (homemade pasta; low fat roasted meats; good salads and a nice cake for the weekdays, since he likes sweets; sushi on the weekends; and generally things that make him happy, and I'm happy because of it). I also sweep and mop the floors every other day, and do the dishes every day. Per agreement, Joe does the toilets (when I remind him), laundry (when I tell him to) and vacuuming (usually after I remind him a million times). He also takes out the trash(when it's overflowing) and addresses our monthly checks (very responsibly and on time, actually). Sometimes I wonder if I should just open a can of tuna for dinner and relax. I do think that the fact that I take my part so seriously doesn't mean he should...I'm confused.
But, I really don't like having to remind him of everything. It's like it falls under my jurisdiction just because I'm a woman. Cooking, washing, floor cleaning is done almost every day. He does his stuff when I'm about to do it because I need clean underwear, for example. I also worry about the example this could give to our not-yet-conceived children. We both want our children to respect gender equality. I guess my problem is just the fact that I have to chase him around like he's my 18 year old disorganized son. He leaves things out of place, doesn't tidy up after himself, leaves (kind of serious) things for the last minute, expects me to help him with homework and of course to have the energy to have sex at the end of the day. I want him to do things on his own accord. I don't like him to think he "helps me" with the chores, because there isn't a law that says that chores are MY responsibility. I don't know how to make him see that he doesn't "help" me...they are OUR chores. I feel like all this resentment and wondering affects our sex life, too. For the first time in years we're having sex like three times a week...not intentionally, I'm just tired and kind of offended by this whole thing, actually.
**Am I exaggerating?
**If you are in a couple, how do you keep both house loads fair? Can you give specific examples of what each person does? Can you give your assessment on our distribution?
**Am I hurting him for trying to change his habits? I am very careful to ask him if he agrees with my point of view, and I would hate for him to do something against his will...
**Do you have any other advice for me?
Chorewars.
We go to Chorewars whenever we get out of housework balance. One of two things happens: My husband realizes I'm doing the lion's share of the housework and shapes up, or he gets super-competitive with me to get more point and starts doing shit left and right. Which irritates me because the point is to prove that he doesn't do shit, but then I realize it's a win-win situation, since the shit is now done, and the point is not to win, the point is to have a clean house.
Be fair in assigning points to chores. Litterboxes get a ton of points because we both hate them, even though he's the one who does them. Normally we assign number of points to number of minutes the chore takes, but we do use an "undesirability modifier" to make particularly disliked chores worth more. Similarly, since I sit and sew buttons back on while watching TV because I like to sew, I get LESS points for that sort of thing. Also my husband protested (back in the day) that grocery shopping should be worth less because he liked grocery shopping (whereas I did not), but I was *always* the one who had to do it because of our schedules, so I refused to diminish the points on that one.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:45 PM on August 29, 2011 [51 favorites]
We go to Chorewars whenever we get out of housework balance. One of two things happens: My husband realizes I'm doing the lion's share of the housework and shapes up, or he gets super-competitive with me to get more point and starts doing shit left and right. Which irritates me because the point is to prove that he doesn't do shit, but then I realize it's a win-win situation, since the shit is now done, and the point is not to win, the point is to have a clean house.
Be fair in assigning points to chores. Litterboxes get a ton of points because we both hate them, even though he's the one who does them. Normally we assign number of points to number of minutes the chore takes, but we do use an "undesirability modifier" to make particularly disliked chores worth more. Similarly, since I sit and sew buttons back on while watching TV because I like to sew, I get LESS points for that sort of thing. Also my husband protested (back in the day) that grocery shopping should be worth less because he liked grocery shopping (whereas I did not), but I was *always* the one who had to do it because of our schedules, so I refused to diminish the points on that one.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:45 PM on August 29, 2011 [51 favorites]
I think Joe needs more daily chores. Like, dishes. If you cook, it seems fair to me that he should do the dishes.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:46 PM on August 29, 2011 [30 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:46 PM on August 29, 2011 [30 favorites]
I think that, unfortunately, you are just going to be have to be patient, and when you can afford it -- however many years from now -- hire a housekeeper to come in occasionally. It sounds like he's trying, and the truth is that it takes a long time to teach an old dog new tricks. If he's coming from a household where he never had to do the chores, it just isn't going to naturally occur to him to do the chores. (Especially if he's naturally spacy or not visually observant in general). It sounds to me -- who doesn't know either of you -- like he's trying, and he sincerely wants to help, and that's good. You may just have to be patient and remind him a lot. My mother still has to remind my father to put his g-d socks in the g-d hamper, and they've been married 40 years (and raised three VERY independent, educated, feminist girls, FWIW). A LOT of people have this struggle.
I agree that making a schedule will help a LOT. I love the idea of Chorewars.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 7:49 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I agree that making a schedule will help a LOT. I love the idea of Chorewars.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 7:49 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
What on earth are you doing on your floors such that they need to be mopped every other day?! That is madness, woman! Madness!
My boyfriend and I don't live together, but when he's in town (he works abroad) I spend a lot of time at his place. When we're (effectively) living together, we share chores. If the place needs vacuuming, he'll vacuum while I move the obstacles off the floor, or vice versa. We cook together (sort of...he's the better cook, so I'll do menial tasks like stirring and chopping) and clean up after dinner together (I'll clean the countertops and table while he'll do the dishes, or vice versa). If the bathroom needs to be cleaned, we'll both clean the bathroom. If the laundry needs to be folded, we'll both fold the laundry. Whoever happens to be wearing pants takes the garbage out. If the other one is exceptionally tired or busy or cranky or otherwise incapacitated, one person will do more. Because we're both nice guys.
There aren't any sit down discussions, there's no "well I did this and this so you need to do that and that," there's no "my job" and "his job" or "woman's work" and "man's work". We're on the same team; we work together.
I suspect that when you have these big monthly talks with your husband, they're on the order of "you need to do more." It might be more successful for you both if you approached it from an angle of "let's cooperate more."
posted by phunniemee at 7:49 PM on August 29, 2011 [13 favorites]
My boyfriend and I don't live together, but when he's in town (he works abroad) I spend a lot of time at his place. When we're (effectively) living together, we share chores. If the place needs vacuuming, he'll vacuum while I move the obstacles off the floor, or vice versa. We cook together (sort of...he's the better cook, so I'll do menial tasks like stirring and chopping) and clean up after dinner together (I'll clean the countertops and table while he'll do the dishes, or vice versa). If the bathroom needs to be cleaned, we'll both clean the bathroom. If the laundry needs to be folded, we'll both fold the laundry. Whoever happens to be wearing pants takes the garbage out. If the other one is exceptionally tired or busy or cranky or otherwise incapacitated, one person will do more. Because we're both nice guys.
There aren't any sit down discussions, there's no "well I did this and this so you need to do that and that," there's no "my job" and "his job" or "woman's work" and "man's work". We're on the same team; we work together.
I suspect that when you have these big monthly talks with your husband, they're on the order of "you need to do more." It might be more successful for you both if you approached it from an angle of "let's cooperate more."
posted by phunniemee at 7:49 PM on August 29, 2011 [13 favorites]
Oh, a couple of other points:
*Try creating a google calendar (or similar) that sends him reminders. Then YOU'RE not nagging, it's just an event on the calendar that needs to occur. This helped us a lot and cut down on the "nagging"/"reminding.'
*Think about your strengths and weaknesses. My husband is good at focusing and deep cleaning, but doesn't really see the little accumulations of chores over the course of a day (counter is a little dirty, toys need to be put away, floor needs a little sweeping, etc.). So a lot of our division of labor is that I do the daily stuff, because I see it, it bothers me, and I don't mind cleaning as I go through my day; while he does the deep cleaning like mopping and bathroom scrubbing and so on, since he prefers to dig into something for an hour or two and be DONE with it instead of having little bits all day. So think about how to divide it up so you get chores you hate less.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:50 PM on August 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
*Try creating a google calendar (or similar) that sends him reminders. Then YOU'RE not nagging, it's just an event on the calendar that needs to occur. This helped us a lot and cut down on the "nagging"/"reminding.'
*Think about your strengths and weaknesses. My husband is good at focusing and deep cleaning, but doesn't really see the little accumulations of chores over the course of a day (counter is a little dirty, toys need to be put away, floor needs a little sweeping, etc.). So a lot of our division of labor is that I do the daily stuff, because I see it, it bothers me, and I don't mind cleaning as I go through my day; while he does the deep cleaning like mopping and bathroom scrubbing and so on, since he prefers to dig into something for an hour or two and be DONE with it instead of having little bits all day. So think about how to divide it up so you get chores you hate less.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:50 PM on August 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
Is he maybe not sexist and just lazy? Regardless the reasons for the behavior don't matter, the problem is that he's not doing these things when you need him too. Living with roommates I found ones as equally slob-like and lazy as me and it's working great. You don't have this option. You wash the floors every other day? That seems like the high end of the cleaning spectrum. Doing laundry right before you run out of underwear also seems like standard practice for most people I know. It seems like you like a more active constant state of cleanliness and he's got a higher tolerance for filth. So explain exactly what you want from him how frequently you want it and that you don't want to have to remind him. Chorewars is great, too.
posted by edbles at 7:52 PM on August 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by edbles at 7:52 PM on August 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
Throwing out what I assume is going to be an unpopular theory, which is that you might just have a guy that will always bee incapable of doing chores beyond a certain point.
To explain(entirely anecdotally), many female-halves of couples I know end up doing "the chores" because they "give in" before the male half does. That is, guys often are just willing to live in worse conditions of it means they actually have to clean, even of on an intellectual level they understand how things should work. And yeah, you're probably right this is learned behavior, I'm just suggesting the horrible possibility that he'll never operate at the chore-doing level you want him to, without constant nagging or something.
posted by Patbon at 7:53 PM on August 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
To explain(entirely anecdotally), many female-halves of couples I know end up doing "the chores" because they "give in" before the male half does. That is, guys often are just willing to live in worse conditions of it means they actually have to clean, even of on an intellectual level they understand how things should work. And yeah, you're probably right this is learned behavior, I'm just suggesting the horrible possibility that he'll never operate at the chore-doing level you want him to, without constant nagging or something.
posted by Patbon at 7:53 PM on August 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
Oh autocorrect. Make the necessary corrections in your head
posted by Patbon at 7:55 PM on August 29, 2011
posted by Patbon at 7:55 PM on August 29, 2011
Definitely do your own laundry and let him do his - it would really annoy me to have to wait for someone else to get around to that.
My boyfriend means well but is a bit on the lazy side, and my best solution for this is having housecleaning be something we tackle together on the weekends. We both spend an hour picking up, vacuuming, doing dishes, scrubbing the bathroom, etc. together, and it doesn't really matter who does what as long as we're both moving. That way I only have to bring it up once and it all gets done.
During the week, I do the maintenance cleaning (which for me is wiping down countertops, not mopping floors) and we switch off taking out the trash and emptying the dishwasher.
posted by ella wren at 7:56 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
My boyfriend means well but is a bit on the lazy side, and my best solution for this is having housecleaning be something we tackle together on the weekends. We both spend an hour picking up, vacuuming, doing dishes, scrubbing the bathroom, etc. together, and it doesn't really matter who does what as long as we're both moving. That way I only have to bring it up once and it all gets done.
During the week, I do the maintenance cleaning (which for me is wiping down countertops, not mopping floors) and we switch off taking out the trash and emptying the dishwasher.
posted by ella wren at 7:56 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Just to note what works for us:
I do all the cooking, husband does the dishes.
We have a cleaning day every Thursday. I do the kitchen and dusting. Husband does the bathrooms, vacuuming.
I do all the tidying, husband does all the trash and recycling.
Laundry gets done every Thursday, regardless of how much there is to do. Husband does the laundry, I fold it and put it away.
You should never have to remind him because his chores should happen the same day every week.
posted by gaspode at 7:56 PM on August 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
I do all the cooking, husband does the dishes.
We have a cleaning day every Thursday. I do the kitchen and dusting. Husband does the bathrooms, vacuuming.
I do all the tidying, husband does all the trash and recycling.
Laundry gets done every Thursday, regardless of how much there is to do. Husband does the laundry, I fold it and put it away.
You should never have to remind him because his chores should happen the same day every week.
posted by gaspode at 7:56 PM on August 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
1. A chart. Each of you ticks the appropriate boxes on the weekly basis.
2. Chores should be divvied by who hates them less. I always do kitty box, he always does vaccuuming.
3. Everyone does their own laundry, minus towels and sheets.
posted by freshwater at 7:57 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
2. Chores should be divvied by who hates them less. I always do kitty box, he always does vaccuuming.
3. Everyone does their own laundry, minus towels and sheets.
posted by freshwater at 7:57 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Schedule on fridge.
However: I also think you need to have a discussion not simply about the assignment of tasks but about each others' definitions of "in need of cleaning", "clean enough" and "cleaned". They vary. You may need to compromise your own definitions here, particularly because right now you sound like you've adopted a kind of "maid mode" where everything looks like a chore in waiting. (Open that can of tuna.)
stop doing his chores for him and stop asking him to do them. you say he likes a clean home, show him what it looks like when his part is let to fall down.
I suspect that the passive aggressive approach isn't going to work here. The OP is already frustrated, and will notice everything that has been left undone much more intensely; the husband may well develop selective blindness.
posted by holgate at 7:57 PM on August 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
However: I also think you need to have a discussion not simply about the assignment of tasks but about each others' definitions of "in need of cleaning", "clean enough" and "cleaned". They vary. You may need to compromise your own definitions here, particularly because right now you sound like you've adopted a kind of "maid mode" where everything looks like a chore in waiting. (Open that can of tuna.)
stop doing his chores for him and stop asking him to do them. you say he likes a clean home, show him what it looks like when his part is let to fall down.
I suspect that the passive aggressive approach isn't going to work here. The OP is already frustrated, and will notice everything that has been left undone much more intensely; the husband may well develop selective blindness.
posted by holgate at 7:57 PM on August 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
I think you guys probably have differing standards of necessary cleanliness. As a dude sweeping/mopping every couple days seems extremely excessive. That said, get the guy some daily chores. If you're cooking every day he should be doing the dishes. And wiping down kitchen surfaces / tables. And taking out the trash. And making sure the dishtowels get washed.
posted by ghharr at 7:58 PM on August 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by ghharr at 7:58 PM on August 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
I merely want to say that you have to deal with this issue well before you have kids, because once you do, you will be living in a world defined by chores in a way you can hardly imagine right now. By then, you'd better have a partner you can trust to get things done without your executive oversight.
posted by escabeche at 8:01 PM on August 29, 2011 [14 favorites]
posted by escabeche at 8:01 PM on August 29, 2011 [14 favorites]
what do you think of our arrangement? I personally don't like it.
It doesn't sound like the problem is your "arrangement," i.e. the ground rules that are supposed to be followed. Isn't the problem just that he procrastinates on following through with the arrangement, so you too often have to remind him?
First of all, if you haven't talked to him about how much this bothers you (I'm not sure if you have), then do so. See if that alone fixes things. If it doesn't, then I see 2 possible solutions (aside from the practical suggestions that have already been recommended):
1. Stop reminding him. Let him see the consequences of him not doing it, and hope this wakes him up.
2. Just accept that he needs reminders. Everyone has their foibles, and this is one of his. For someone who was totally not used to doing chores before he met you a few years ago, if he ends up doing the chores competently and his one shortcoming is he needs a reminder, that actually sounds relatively impressive. It's hard to break old habits, and being in a relationship/marriage doesn't suddenly allow people to break free of those habits. Also, some people are just procrastinators. If he generally doesn't mind leaving things till the last minute, whereas you get anxious by the time the last minute arrives, that could lead to perpetual tension between the two of you.
One last point: I assume every other aspect of your relationship is gender-equal, including that he doesn't do the lion's share of the work in any other respect? Otherwise, you wouldn't be in the best position to take a principled "men and women must be equal" stand.
posted by John Cohen at 8:02 PM on August 29, 2011
It doesn't sound like the problem is your "arrangement," i.e. the ground rules that are supposed to be followed. Isn't the problem just that he procrastinates on following through with the arrangement, so you too often have to remind him?
First of all, if you haven't talked to him about how much this bothers you (I'm not sure if you have), then do so. See if that alone fixes things. If it doesn't, then I see 2 possible solutions (aside from the practical suggestions that have already been recommended):
1. Stop reminding him. Let him see the consequences of him not doing it, and hope this wakes him up.
2. Just accept that he needs reminders. Everyone has their foibles, and this is one of his. For someone who was totally not used to doing chores before he met you a few years ago, if he ends up doing the chores competently and his one shortcoming is he needs a reminder, that actually sounds relatively impressive. It's hard to break old habits, and being in a relationship/marriage doesn't suddenly allow people to break free of those habits. Also, some people are just procrastinators. If he generally doesn't mind leaving things till the last minute, whereas you get anxious by the time the last minute arrives, that could lead to perpetual tension between the two of you.
One last point: I assume every other aspect of your relationship is gender-equal, including that he doesn't do the lion's share of the work in any other respect? Otherwise, you wouldn't be in the best position to take a principled "men and women must be equal" stand.
posted by John Cohen at 8:02 PM on August 29, 2011
To expand a little: I think the difficulty here has something to do with the fact that you are overwhelmed by your executive role. Having to remember to remind your husband to do a chore is itself a chore, but one which is hard to fit into a Chorewars-type reckoning. The right question about this kind of chore is not "how many hours of your week does it use?" but "how much of your cognitive resources does it use?" and things like that are very hard to quantify.
By the way, I come to this as a married man whose natural tendency is to be a little like your husband, and one way I deal with this by taking an entire part of the household work -- in my case, food -- as my own. I shop for it, I cook it, I wash the dishes, I put them away. So my wife not only doesn't have to do it, she doesn't have to think about it. Is there a whole sector of housework your husband could run? Like, could everything having to do with clothes -- washing, folding, putting away -- be all his?
posted by escabeche at 8:07 PM on August 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
By the way, I come to this as a married man whose natural tendency is to be a little like your husband, and one way I deal with this by taking an entire part of the household work -- in my case, food -- as my own. I shop for it, I cook it, I wash the dishes, I put them away. So my wife not only doesn't have to do it, she doesn't have to think about it. Is there a whole sector of housework your husband could run? Like, could everything having to do with clothes -- washing, folding, putting away -- be all his?
posted by escabeche at 8:07 PM on August 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
I agree with Eyebrows McGee about finding the things that you are each good at (or possibly that you do not loathe) and assigning those as your chores. If there is a chore that you both loathe, then perhaps you could switch off monthly.
We had a very similar situation when we were married. My husband did very little in the way of housework while he was growing up, but there was no question when we moved in that the chores would have to be shared. Not being used to cleaning, he has a much higher tolerance for mess than I do, meaning I was not willing to just wait until he noticed the need for dusting/vacuuming/dish washing, etc.
Originally, we split the chores and set up a "cleaning day" every weekend (or every other, depending on the mess). However, after 15 years of this, we found that the dread was too painful, and we now have a service that comes in every other weekend. It takes them a couple of hours to finish what would have taken us about 4 hours, and it has lifted the mood in the house considerably. No more dreading cleaning day!
As far as cooking is concerned, we try to work that out together. There's an unstated "if one cooks, the other cleans," but we try to clean up as we go along, so that it's not really overwhelming for the one who has to clean afterwards.
Mostly, being open and honest about how much this is bothering you should help him to work with you on a solution.
posted by blurker at 8:09 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
We had a very similar situation when we were married. My husband did very little in the way of housework while he was growing up, but there was no question when we moved in that the chores would have to be shared. Not being used to cleaning, he has a much higher tolerance for mess than I do, meaning I was not willing to just wait until he noticed the need for dusting/vacuuming/dish washing, etc.
Originally, we split the chores and set up a "cleaning day" every weekend (or every other, depending on the mess). However, after 15 years of this, we found that the dread was too painful, and we now have a service that comes in every other weekend. It takes them a couple of hours to finish what would have taken us about 4 hours, and it has lifted the mood in the house considerably. No more dreading cleaning day!
As far as cooking is concerned, we try to work that out together. There's an unstated "if one cooks, the other cleans," but we try to clean up as we go along, so that it's not really overwhelming for the one who has to clean afterwards.
Mostly, being open and honest about how much this is bothering you should help him to work with you on a solution.
posted by blurker at 8:09 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't have specific comments about how to remind him of his chores, but I did want to approach your gendered frustration with your husband. As a fellow feminist, it would drive me bonkers if my partner obliviously assumed my vagina-ownership endowed me with chore-doing responsibility.
However, take a step back from the GRAR BAD GENDER ROLES anger and think of it like this: your husband isn't really being a bad feminist as much as recovering from a life where he was spoiled. Yes, he's spoiled because of stupid gender roles in his household but that's not the point, or at least, it's not the point that you need to worry about. He respects you as a person, and he wants to hand down good values to your future children, but... he's simply not used to performing chores. As such, it's hard for him to remember to do things daily or weekly and, since he came from a household where things got magically done for him, he has yet to make a strong connection between Not Washing Dishes -> Gross Sink. Meanwhile, you're working yourself into a lather about the political implications of said laziness.
I have a lovely (female) roommate who came from an Italian household where her mother played Catholic martyr by doing all the chores. My roommate has had to learn the hard way that roommates do not take kindly to washing other people's dishes all the time, for example. I have to remind her to make an effort, and she's getting better about it over time. Maybe if she were a guy I was dating, I would immediately pounce on the gendered, "Oh so I'm your girlfriend AND your maid AAARGH" aspect, which is both extremely irritating and not a constructive way to deal with the issue.
It's hard for people to do a 180 halfway through life. I'm not making excuses for your husband, and I totally see why you're pissed, but if you can approach this from an individualized issue of changing bad habits instead of a politically charged death trap of gender roles, you can probably keep your cool long enough to find a relaxed way to deal with the division of labor.
posted by zoomorphic at 8:10 PM on August 29, 2011 [28 favorites]
However, take a step back from the GRAR BAD GENDER ROLES anger and think of it like this: your husband isn't really being a bad feminist as much as recovering from a life where he was spoiled. Yes, he's spoiled because of stupid gender roles in his household but that's not the point, or at least, it's not the point that you need to worry about. He respects you as a person, and he wants to hand down good values to your future children, but... he's simply not used to performing chores. As such, it's hard for him to remember to do things daily or weekly and, since he came from a household where things got magically done for him, he has yet to make a strong connection between Not Washing Dishes -> Gross Sink. Meanwhile, you're working yourself into a lather about the political implications of said laziness.
I have a lovely (female) roommate who came from an Italian household where her mother played Catholic martyr by doing all the chores. My roommate has had to learn the hard way that roommates do not take kindly to washing other people's dishes all the time, for example. I have to remind her to make an effort, and she's getting better about it over time. Maybe if she were a guy I was dating, I would immediately pounce on the gendered, "Oh so I'm your girlfriend AND your maid AAARGH" aspect, which is both extremely irritating and not a constructive way to deal with the issue.
It's hard for people to do a 180 halfway through life. I'm not making excuses for your husband, and I totally see why you're pissed, but if you can approach this from an individualized issue of changing bad habits instead of a politically charged death trap of gender roles, you can probably keep your cool long enough to find a relaxed way to deal with the division of labor.
posted by zoomorphic at 8:10 PM on August 29, 2011 [28 favorites]
Maybe you should just have regularly scheduled "chore time." Ours is Saturday afternoons. I clean one bathroom, the kitchen, and the entryway floors, and the husband cleans the other bathroom, does all the vacuuming, and the dusting. We both know chores have to be done before Saturday night, and the fact that we're doing them together makes it less painful.
During the week, I cook and the husband does the dishes (seems like a fair split--any reason why you cook AND do dishes) and right now, I do the laundry because I work from home. The husband used to be the laundry-doer when he worked from home...this is just one of those chores we accept is inconvenient so whoever is least inconvenienced by it has to do it. Sometimes I leave the folding for him though. :)
posted by Bella Sebastian at 8:15 PM on August 29, 2011
During the week, I cook and the husband does the dishes (seems like a fair split--any reason why you cook AND do dishes) and right now, I do the laundry because I work from home. The husband used to be the laundry-doer when he worked from home...this is just one of those chores we accept is inconvenient so whoever is least inconvenienced by it has to do it. Sometimes I leave the folding for him though. :)
posted by Bella Sebastian at 8:15 PM on August 29, 2011
My husband does all the cooking and cleaning except for the animal related kind. This is because I work a full time job and he is unemployed. If he was working, I would do more of the cleaning but he would still do the bulk of the cooking because he is an awesome cook and I am not.
posted by crankylex at 8:20 PM on August 29, 2011
posted by crankylex at 8:20 PM on August 29, 2011
Oh yeah, and "whoever cooked doesn't wash dishes" is pretty standard, as you can see from the answers above. The house I grew up in had a pretty traditional gender breakdown of household chores, but my father has washed the dishes every day for forty-some years.
posted by escabeche at 8:20 PM on August 29, 2011
posted by escabeche at 8:20 PM on August 29, 2011
Have you thought about asking your parents for advice? Surely they came to their socialist-chore-utopia from different upbringings but found their little slice of heaven together.
posted by juniperesque at 8:21 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by juniperesque at 8:21 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I posted a question just like yours about a year ago.
Without going into too many details, let me just say that so far, nothing has changed. You have to figure out whether or not this is going to be a big issue for you for the rest of your life. I'm still working on that.
We did try to get housecleaners for a while, but it was just too much money. Good luck, and I look forward to hearing new solutions!
posted by two lights above the sea at 8:22 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Without going into too many details, let me just say that so far, nothing has changed. You have to figure out whether or not this is going to be a big issue for you for the rest of your life. I'm still working on that.
We did try to get housecleaners for a while, but it was just too much money. Good luck, and I look forward to hearing new solutions!
posted by two lights above the sea at 8:22 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
How do you balance housework as a couple, and what do you think of our arrangement?
Your arrangement will never be fair if you're doing all the cooking and dishes. If he's able to cook, you should be splitting the meal prep 50/50 OR "you cook, I'll do the dishes." Who's doing the grocery shopping?
Keep a schedule and switch off on things like laundry, bathroom cleaning, floors, etc. If you do these things on regular days, it at least makes the nagging easier, because it's not on an as-needed basis, but on a regular basis.
As soon as you can afford a cleaning person, DO IT.
posted by pourtant at 8:22 PM on August 29, 2011
Your arrangement will never be fair if you're doing all the cooking and dishes. If he's able to cook, you should be splitting the meal prep 50/50 OR "you cook, I'll do the dishes." Who's doing the grocery shopping?
Keep a schedule and switch off on things like laundry, bathroom cleaning, floors, etc. If you do these things on regular days, it at least makes the nagging easier, because it's not on an as-needed basis, but on a regular basis.
As soon as you can afford a cleaning person, DO IT.
posted by pourtant at 8:22 PM on August 29, 2011
Argh, hit send before I was done. You have the more stringent requirements. This means that the bulk of the cleaning will fall on you unless you learn to relax your standards a little. I have six cats and a dog and I think mopping every other day is craziness. Also, wash your own clothes, let him get caught without clean underwear.
posted by crankylex at 8:23 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by crankylex at 8:23 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Are there any tasks that he minds less than you? Bills, maybe? Something that he can take responsibility for so that you don't resent the ones that fall to you?
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:27 PM on August 29, 2011
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:27 PM on August 29, 2011
You're the breadwinner. How does he react to that? When I was the sole wage earner, much earlier in my marriage, I stopped doing household chores. All of them. After about a week of utter mess and chaos, my husband decided that we needed a way to balance the chores and to divide them in a way that seemed equitable, if not completely equal. If I shopped, he'd cook, I'd clean up. Who ever does laundry doesn't empty the trash. Cleaning the bathroom was trade for vacuuming and so on. I don't think family of origin stuff matters very much--has Joe been living at home until you two got together?
It would be nice to think that you don't need a chart with gold stars and stickers, but you might. And even if his standards of homemaking don't always equal yours, he needs to understand that after working all day, you don't need a second shift.
So, you're not his mom, don't remind him, don't nag--just don't do it. And if he eats cold soup out of a can because he didn't wash the pots and pans, too bad.
posted by Ideefixe at 8:29 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
It would be nice to think that you don't need a chart with gold stars and stickers, but you might. And even if his standards of homemaking don't always equal yours, he needs to understand that after working all day, you don't need a second shift.
So, you're not his mom, don't remind him, don't nag--just don't do it. And if he eats cold soup out of a can because he didn't wash the pots and pans, too bad.
posted by Ideefixe at 8:29 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Also, abandon anything not necessary. Mopping that often sounds excessive. Cooking every day isn't really necessary. I wish my husband would learn to cook, but he's not going to; and the flip side of that is that he cheerfully makes himself a sandwich if I don't feel like putting a meal together.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:29 PM on August 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:29 PM on August 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
One last point: I assume every other aspect of your relationship is gender-equal, including that he doesn't do the lion's share of the work in any other respect? Otherwise, you wouldn't be in the best position to take a principled "men and women must be equal" stand.
I wouldn't assume that at all. The husband is a student (grad student?) in a mathy subject, just like I used to be. She has a full-time job. So he certainly has more free time than she does, and very likely is bringing in less money from the outside. What's more, they're planning to have children, a massive commitment of time, work, and energy which will, at least at the beginning, fall disproportionately on her.
Nonetheless, she's only asking him to do half the housework. I'll concede it's not exactly equal.
posted by escabeche at 8:30 PM on August 29, 2011 [9 favorites]
I wouldn't assume that at all. The husband is a student (grad student?) in a mathy subject, just like I used to be. She has a full-time job. So he certainly has more free time than she does, and very likely is bringing in less money from the outside. What's more, they're planning to have children, a massive commitment of time, work, and energy which will, at least at the beginning, fall disproportionately on her.
Nonetheless, she's only asking him to do half the housework. I'll concede it's not exactly equal.
posted by escabeche at 8:30 PM on August 29, 2011 [9 favorites]
First off, sorry for the length of this answer, and the cursing.
to the point that if he cooks something, he tells me not to tell his parents because they'll be mad he behaved like a woman.
This is a problem. Nobody will like this, but Joe needs to stand up to his parents. He's got that lingering aura floating around him. Those dueling voices - one is you and the others are his parents.
I've been there. Went to wash the dishes, and got stopped by the matron of the house. It's fucking sickening to see women reinforce gender stereotypes like these, and almost as sickening to see men doing it. Maybe I'm prejudiced because I grew up doing chores. Vacuuming, washing dishes, driveways, mowing lawns, clearing tables, mopping the pantry.
You have a couple of options, some of which others have touched on.
1) Stop doing Joes share of the chores. Don't remind him. It's not going to work. I'm a guy and I do all of it (i work full time also) - the dishes, the bathroom, the laundry, everything. I get teased by friends because of how religiously I do laundry. If he is not a chores person, he's not going to change. I have a good friend who was messy 15 years ago and is messy now.
2) Marriage is an equal partnership, but not all the time. Some times, some stretches of time, it will be unequal. Accept it for now until he gets out of school, specifically noting to him that this will be the case. Hold the relationship to it.
3) Can you take the chores out of their own bucket and put them into a larger "household tasks" bucket, and then assign him more responsibilities? Would it make you feel better if you were doing the cooking and cleaning and laundry, but all of a sudden he was responsible for getting your money in an ira, lowering your credit card rates, refinancing your debt, renegotiating your phone and cable bills? Finding ways to insulate the home better to save money on your electric bill? Referring someone to your apartment complex to get money that way? This does reinforce some gender roles though. Again, you could stipulate that this is only good until he gets out of school. If this isn't something that makes you happy, then make him agree that roles will be shifted completely once he gets out of school, instead of just made equal after he gets out. School can put enormous stress on relationships. Ask professors. I think there are formalized terms for relationships that die during grad school, for example.
I think it's less your vag and more that this guy is (however he was formed) a messy person. If he isn't doing chores, he's messy. Barking out how the place is a disgusting mess yet not cleaning up = messy person. I don't care what he says.
Lastly, how is he around kids? Get him to keep some relative's young (under 2) child, and leave him alone with the child for a day. You need to jumpstart that caregiver/getshitdone/keepitclean switch that people who are parents get turned on.
Good luck. Think about it, make a choice you can live with, and then move on. I still think the parents need to be confronted, but that's probably too much to ask. But as long as that influence is there and he is unwilling to confront it, it's going to be a problem.
I do chores. I'd also probably bust your husband and his dad's ass in whatever contact sport they chose. Not doing chores doesn't make you manly, it makes you a lazy ass slob. You can clean the house and then hit the park to run full at the court. You can do the dinner dishes and run 5 miles on the treadmill at the gym. He needs to get his head out of his ass and pull his weight. You're his companion, not his maid. If this is causing a problem for you, he needs to take that personally and get his act together.
You might need to go at this head on, and start with his parents. I know I make it sound nice and easy but I do understand that this likely isn't an option. Best you can do is find some way to snap him out of his established pattern. Because in the end, this behavior change is going to have to come from his own internal drive. And in my view, each time the thought crosses his mind, his dad and mom's voices jump in there too, even if subliminally, and he doesn't do what he should.
You've got to short circuit that, and get him to realize his is part of YOUR household now. He is no longer a child. That's why I suggested putting him around an actual, mostly helpless child. That might help snap him out of it. Do it multiple times if you have to. And especially if you are planning on having kids, he'll get some practice.
posted by rakim at 8:42 PM on August 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
to the point that if he cooks something, he tells me not to tell his parents because they'll be mad he behaved like a woman.
This is a problem. Nobody will like this, but Joe needs to stand up to his parents. He's got that lingering aura floating around him. Those dueling voices - one is you and the others are his parents.
I've been there. Went to wash the dishes, and got stopped by the matron of the house. It's fucking sickening to see women reinforce gender stereotypes like these, and almost as sickening to see men doing it. Maybe I'm prejudiced because I grew up doing chores. Vacuuming, washing dishes, driveways, mowing lawns, clearing tables, mopping the pantry.
You have a couple of options, some of which others have touched on.
1) Stop doing Joes share of the chores. Don't remind him. It's not going to work. I'm a guy and I do all of it (i work full time also) - the dishes, the bathroom, the laundry, everything. I get teased by friends because of how religiously I do laundry. If he is not a chores person, he's not going to change. I have a good friend who was messy 15 years ago and is messy now.
2) Marriage is an equal partnership, but not all the time. Some times, some stretches of time, it will be unequal. Accept it for now until he gets out of school, specifically noting to him that this will be the case. Hold the relationship to it.
3) Can you take the chores out of their own bucket and put them into a larger "household tasks" bucket, and then assign him more responsibilities? Would it make you feel better if you were doing the cooking and cleaning and laundry, but all of a sudden he was responsible for getting your money in an ira, lowering your credit card rates, refinancing your debt, renegotiating your phone and cable bills? Finding ways to insulate the home better to save money on your electric bill? Referring someone to your apartment complex to get money that way? This does reinforce some gender roles though. Again, you could stipulate that this is only good until he gets out of school. If this isn't something that makes you happy, then make him agree that roles will be shifted completely once he gets out of school, instead of just made equal after he gets out. School can put enormous stress on relationships. Ask professors. I think there are formalized terms for relationships that die during grad school, for example.
I think it's less your vag and more that this guy is (however he was formed) a messy person. If he isn't doing chores, he's messy. Barking out how the place is a disgusting mess yet not cleaning up = messy person. I don't care what he says.
Lastly, how is he around kids? Get him to keep some relative's young (under 2) child, and leave him alone with the child for a day. You need to jumpstart that caregiver/getshitdone/keepitclean switch that people who are parents get turned on.
Good luck. Think about it, make a choice you can live with, and then move on. I still think the parents need to be confronted, but that's probably too much to ask. But as long as that influence is there and he is unwilling to confront it, it's going to be a problem.
I do chores. I'd also probably bust your husband and his dad's ass in whatever contact sport they chose. Not doing chores doesn't make you manly, it makes you a lazy ass slob. You can clean the house and then hit the park to run full at the court. You can do the dinner dishes and run 5 miles on the treadmill at the gym. He needs to get his head out of his ass and pull his weight. You're his companion, not his maid. If this is causing a problem for you, he needs to take that personally and get his act together.
You might need to go at this head on, and start with his parents. I know I make it sound nice and easy but I do understand that this likely isn't an option. Best you can do is find some way to snap him out of his established pattern. Because in the end, this behavior change is going to have to come from his own internal drive. And in my view, each time the thought crosses his mind, his dad and mom's voices jump in there too, even if subliminally, and he doesn't do what he should.
You've got to short circuit that, and get him to realize his is part of YOUR household now. He is no longer a child. That's why I suggested putting him around an actual, mostly helpless child. That might help snap him out of it. Do it multiple times if you have to. And especially if you are planning on having kids, he'll get some practice.
posted by rakim at 8:42 PM on August 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Washing the floors every other day--hahahahahahah!!!!OMG!!!LOL!!!!...heh. Ahem. Sorry.
In all seriousness, I was you almost two decades ago, down to the husband in a mathematically intensive Ph.D. program whose head was so full of physics and Fortran that there was no room in it for washing dishes or doing laundry. And despite my avowed feminism, I wanted my housekeeping and cooking to be beyond reproach. As I was working on a grad degree of my own while teaching a courseload of two or three classes a semester, it slowly dawned on me that it wasn't going to happen. And I'd say most of our domestic discord had to do with housework not getting done. My husband doesn't have a sexist bone in his body. He just hated doing housework and had better things to do, like writing code to simulate supernova explosions. Also, we didn't have a dishwasher. It all had to be done by hand and took forever.
It was hard, but I found that there were a few hacks that helped a lot.
1. Lower your standards. Yes, I know. This is so hard. Sweep the floors if they get crufty, but cut down your washing to once a week or when they actually show enough dirt to make it worthwhile.
2. Don't cook so much from scratch. Take shortcuts you can tolerate. Unless you love making your own pasta and it's relaxing, for instance, buy some good dried pasta instead, if you can stand it. Same with desserts--cakes are labor-intensive. Berries and milk, or cheese and grapes and dark chocolate, or something yummy but storebought. Rotisserie chickens from the supermarket. You don't have to make everything yourself.
3. Get him to help. If you have access to a balcony or patio, get a grill and make him help with the cooking. Grilling is manly. He can sit outside with a bottle of beer and babysit the ribs. You can also ask him to tear himself away from his serious Slashdot browsing or science blog reading or whatever and make him chop and/or grate stuff.
4. I'm guessing your husband is a geek. Get some really cool labor-saving household gadgets (or ask for them for Christmas from family). Geeks love to mess with (and sometimes hack) appliances. Mine is in charge of the Roomba and the superduper black-hole sucking Dyson (with which he likes to terrorize the cats). They'll cost a bit, but it's worth the investment. Maybe even invest in a portable dishwasher if you don't have one.
5. Learn to love wrinkle-resistant clothes and linens. I have several sets of 100% cotton non-wrinkle sheets that are inexpensive and actually quite nice. Dr. Tully Monster has a closet full of non-iron khakis and oxfords that at most require just a light pressing (and if removed from the dryer immediately, will even retain their creases.) For a while our washer was broken, so we'd both go out to a nearby laundromat that had wifi. He'd help carry in the baskets of clothes and hang out and work on stuff while the washers and dryers were going, and then he could easily be persuaded to help me fold stuff and, of course, take it back out to the car and into the house. (It helped that there was an ice cream place across the street, so as a reward he'd get a milkshake.)
6. Thank him. Lots of positive reinforcement. Let him know that you really, really appreciate his doing his share of the chores, especially when he's got to be eating, sleeping, and breathing coursework 24/7.
posted by tully_monster at 8:45 PM on August 29, 2011 [10 favorites]
In all seriousness, I was you almost two decades ago, down to the husband in a mathematically intensive Ph.D. program whose head was so full of physics and Fortran that there was no room in it for washing dishes or doing laundry. And despite my avowed feminism, I wanted my housekeeping and cooking to be beyond reproach. As I was working on a grad degree of my own while teaching a courseload of two or three classes a semester, it slowly dawned on me that it wasn't going to happen. And I'd say most of our domestic discord had to do with housework not getting done. My husband doesn't have a sexist bone in his body. He just hated doing housework and had better things to do, like writing code to simulate supernova explosions. Also, we didn't have a dishwasher. It all had to be done by hand and took forever.
It was hard, but I found that there were a few hacks that helped a lot.
1. Lower your standards. Yes, I know. This is so hard. Sweep the floors if they get crufty, but cut down your washing to once a week or when they actually show enough dirt to make it worthwhile.
2. Don't cook so much from scratch. Take shortcuts you can tolerate. Unless you love making your own pasta and it's relaxing, for instance, buy some good dried pasta instead, if you can stand it. Same with desserts--cakes are labor-intensive. Berries and milk, or cheese and grapes and dark chocolate, or something yummy but storebought. Rotisserie chickens from the supermarket. You don't have to make everything yourself.
3. Get him to help. If you have access to a balcony or patio, get a grill and make him help with the cooking. Grilling is manly. He can sit outside with a bottle of beer and babysit the ribs. You can also ask him to tear himself away from his serious Slashdot browsing or science blog reading or whatever and make him chop and/or grate stuff.
4. I'm guessing your husband is a geek. Get some really cool labor-saving household gadgets (or ask for them for Christmas from family). Geeks love to mess with (and sometimes hack) appliances. Mine is in charge of the Roomba and the superduper black-hole sucking Dyson (with which he likes to terrorize the cats). They'll cost a bit, but it's worth the investment. Maybe even invest in a portable dishwasher if you don't have one.
5. Learn to love wrinkle-resistant clothes and linens. I have several sets of 100% cotton non-wrinkle sheets that are inexpensive and actually quite nice. Dr. Tully Monster has a closet full of non-iron khakis and oxfords that at most require just a light pressing (and if removed from the dryer immediately, will even retain their creases.) For a while our washer was broken, so we'd both go out to a nearby laundromat that had wifi. He'd help carry in the baskets of clothes and hang out and work on stuff while the washers and dryers were going, and then he could easily be persuaded to help me fold stuff and, of course, take it back out to the car and into the house. (It helped that there was an ice cream place across the street, so as a reward he'd get a milkshake.)
6. Thank him. Lots of positive reinforcement. Let him know that you really, really appreciate his doing his share of the chores, especially when he's got to be eating, sleeping, and breathing coursework 24/7.
posted by tully_monster at 8:45 PM on August 29, 2011 [10 favorites]
Beatings. Regular, brutal beatings.
Seriously, though, he needs to grasp that you're busting ass while he's sitting around, and he should pull his weight. The upbringing stuff is not really relevant. Set a who does what by when for any task, then let him sweat the consequences. Make sure you let him know that it's not fair to you to have to mind every detail.
If it didn't matter to him (ie he was a slob), that would be one thing, but if he expects a clean place, he should have it explained to him that that doesn't come from Santa Claus.
posted by Gilbert at 8:45 PM on August 29, 2011
Seriously, though, he needs to grasp that you're busting ass while he's sitting around, and he should pull his weight. The upbringing stuff is not really relevant. Set a who does what by when for any task, then let him sweat the consequences. Make sure you let him know that it's not fair to you to have to mind every detail.
If it didn't matter to him (ie he was a slob), that would be one thing, but if he expects a clean place, he should have it explained to him that that doesn't come from Santa Claus.
posted by Gilbert at 8:45 PM on August 29, 2011
How do you balance housework as a couple, and what do you think of our arrangement?
I think your arrangement sucks, because you are unhappy. Conversely, any (and I mean any) arrangement that makes you happy is totally awesome.
That said, it's important to remember that 50/50 splits of each and every task are not the only fair solution. My partner does probably 99% of the cleaning (and she would probably put that at 100%), more than half of the cooking, most the accounting, etc. Sounds like a shitty deal for her, right?
But when the truck needs a new gas tank, I'm the lucky guy who spends an entire weekend laying on gravel and having gas dribble on my face, fighting with frozen bolts and missing parts. When the kitchen needs a new sink, I take care of it. When there's a contractor or business to deal with, I do it.
So she does more of the housework... but gets to live in a world where the cars, appliances, house, and property magically fix themselves, where she never has to negotiate with a contractor or know the names of any tools. And I am expected to be competent in a whole bunch of areas, and spend my "days off" busting my ass and getting tired and dirty, but only have to wash clothes and dishes if she is sick or out of town.
What I just described works for us; for someone else it will sound like hell on earth. The point being, you don't need to satisfy anyone at MeFi -- you need to satisfy each other. If he's not pulling his weight, he needs to man up and grow a pair, and start acting like an adult, period.
posted by Forktine at 8:48 PM on August 29, 2011 [13 favorites]
UGH.
There's nothing to argue about here. You're both either working or studying full time, you both need to balance the housework. Sit the fuck down, figure out what needs to get done, portion it out amongst yourselves, and be done with it. You'll revisit this time and time again as your situation changes. It's WHAT GROWNUPS DO. Has nothing to do with gender and he needs to get over himself.
posted by padraigin at 8:50 PM on August 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
There's nothing to argue about here. You're both either working or studying full time, you both need to balance the housework. Sit the fuck down, figure out what needs to get done, portion it out amongst yourselves, and be done with it. You'll revisit this time and time again as your situation changes. It's WHAT GROWNUPS DO. Has nothing to do with gender and he needs to get over himself.
posted by padraigin at 8:50 PM on August 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
It sounds like one of your issues is that you do a lot of the things that have to be done pretty often (cooking, dishes, general picking up, sweeping), while he has the things that can wait until they're almost unbearable (vacuuming, trash, laundry, etc.) Is there a way to more evenly balance this? Like he does the dishes every night in exchange for you doing laundry?
My partner and I both cook, so sometimes when my partner is cooking I will make myself get off the couch and also contribute to "the household" by generally picking up. I just do this whenever but perhaps you could tell him "look, I cook every day so I need you to spend at least (x minutes) while I'm cooking doing your jobs around the house - that way we both get our stuff done and can enjoy the rest of the night".
posted by nakedmolerats at 8:52 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
My partner and I both cook, so sometimes when my partner is cooking I will make myself get off the couch and also contribute to "the household" by generally picking up. I just do this whenever but perhaps you could tell him "look, I cook every day so I need you to spend at least (x minutes) while I'm cooking doing your jobs around the house - that way we both get our stuff done and can enjoy the rest of the night".
posted by nakedmolerats at 8:52 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
If it makes you feel better, at my house Mrs. RKS is the one who would happily let the house slide into complete oblivion. And when one spouse cares more than the other, there will always be an inequity in the amount of work being done, until you do one or both of the following:
- do what others have suggested and set up a calendar with the chores.
- beat him like they beat on that printer in "Office Space." Go medieval on his ass.
Lastly, I would agree that while it's your choice to do a lot of things that are sort of extra effort, like scratch cooking, etc., it *is* your choice. Mopping every 48 hours is also on the manic side, especially if there are no kids or mountain bikes in the picture. You may have to take that into consideration when negotiating a fair workload. He sounds like someone who will rationally discuss; it's just the follow-through that's lacking. If he enjoys the cooking, it would be fair to see that as a time-consuming chore that it would take quite a few simple chores to balance off. But if he would just as soon have corn dogs, you may have to decide if cooking is a family chore or something you're doing for yourself. I know that may seem kind of unfair, and in a way it is, but on the other hand if I decide the carpet has to be combed every week and therefore that's my one chore I have time to do - okay, really bad analogy, but hopefully you see my point.
posted by randomkeystrike at 8:56 PM on August 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
- do what others have suggested and set up a calendar with the chores.
- beat him like they beat on that printer in "Office Space." Go medieval on his ass.
Lastly, I would agree that while it's your choice to do a lot of things that are sort of extra effort, like scratch cooking, etc., it *is* your choice. Mopping every 48 hours is also on the manic side, especially if there are no kids or mountain bikes in the picture. You may have to take that into consideration when negotiating a fair workload. He sounds like someone who will rationally discuss; it's just the follow-through that's lacking. If he enjoys the cooking, it would be fair to see that as a time-consuming chore that it would take quite a few simple chores to balance off. But if he would just as soon have corn dogs, you may have to decide if cooking is a family chore or something you're doing for yourself. I know that may seem kind of unfair, and in a way it is, but on the other hand if I decide the carpet has to be combed every week and therefore that's my one chore I have time to do - okay, really bad analogy, but hopefully you see my point.
posted by randomkeystrike at 8:56 PM on August 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Add-on - as an example of what I'm talking about - I got hurt pretty badly in a motorcycle accident and had to stay in a hospital bed in our living room for a while. When I got to the part about getting up and walking again, therefore seeing the rest of the house for the first time in about 6 weeks, our home looked like something from one of those hoarders shows. My first tentative steps with the walker were complicated by all the crap all over the house.
Fortunately, I got back to normal, and eventually well enough to clean the house back up. :-)
posted by randomkeystrike at 8:59 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Fortunately, I got back to normal, and eventually well enough to clean the house back up. :-)
posted by randomkeystrike at 8:59 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
He just hated doing housework and had better things to do, like writing code to simulate supernova explosions.
Not going at you personally, but for me, this ends up as bogus thinking. Because it ends up being about where you put your time. Even people in incredibly stressful and high-powered positions have time to put toward non-work things that they prioritize. And the upkeep of the household (having clean clothes and dishes, etc) should be high enough on the prioritization list that they get done. Because you're adults, and like padraigin just said, it's what grownups do. If the person is doing all work stuff and taking a shower and going to bed, okay. But in most cases they are playing video games or watching the Yankees or calling up Randy to talk for a while about the fantasy league or WoW or something. It just isn't believable that these people have no time to do their part in the upkeep of the home. The time is there, they just put work and almost everything else (including surfing the web) in front of it. Because we all want to be kids still but no, it's time to grow the hell up and realize you're in a marriage, and making a commitment to a person means just that - you share responsibilities. Unless you're desperately needed in the situation room in 10 minutes, you can do the dishes. And even if you are, you can still rinse your plate off and wipe down the counter before you hop in the black SUV.
posted by rakim at 9:00 PM on August 29, 2011 [11 favorites]
Not going at you personally, but for me, this ends up as bogus thinking. Because it ends up being about where you put your time. Even people in incredibly stressful and high-powered positions have time to put toward non-work things that they prioritize. And the upkeep of the household (having clean clothes and dishes, etc) should be high enough on the prioritization list that they get done. Because you're adults, and like padraigin just said, it's what grownups do. If the person is doing all work stuff and taking a shower and going to bed, okay. But in most cases they are playing video games or watching the Yankees or calling up Randy to talk for a while about the fantasy league or WoW or something. It just isn't believable that these people have no time to do their part in the upkeep of the home. The time is there, they just put work and almost everything else (including surfing the web) in front of it. Because we all want to be kids still but no, it's time to grow the hell up and realize you're in a marriage, and making a commitment to a person means just that - you share responsibilities. Unless you're desperately needed in the situation room in 10 minutes, you can do the dishes. And even if you are, you can still rinse your plate off and wipe down the counter before you hop in the black SUV.
posted by rakim at 9:00 PM on August 29, 2011 [11 favorites]
You were raised with a particular set of values (one person doing more housework than another is a disgrace). He was raised with a particular set of values (the man doing housework is a disgrace). Neither of you needs to perpetuate those values.
As Forktine says, you don't have to split the chores 50/50 to be "fair." But I'd go a step further and say that relationships don't need to be fair. Respectful, absolutely, but not fair.
You're unhappy, and that's a problem, and it's totally ok to try to work out a new system with your husband. But it could be that what you really need to be happy is for him to do 30% of the chores on time all the time, or maybe you could live with giving him a to do list every week, or some other "unfair" portion of the work. Then again, you may truly need for him to own 50% of the work--I'm just saying, don't let your sense of fairness get in the way of your happiness.
Also, consider what parts of this arrangement you do by choice. Do you enjoy cooking? Do you enjoy mopping? If not... stop. Or cut way back. Let the house get a little dusty. Eat tuna for dinner once a week. It's ok.
posted by Meg_Murry at 9:04 PM on August 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
As Forktine says, you don't have to split the chores 50/50 to be "fair." But I'd go a step further and say that relationships don't need to be fair. Respectful, absolutely, but not fair.
You're unhappy, and that's a problem, and it's totally ok to try to work out a new system with your husband. But it could be that what you really need to be happy is for him to do 30% of the chores on time all the time, or maybe you could live with giving him a to do list every week, or some other "unfair" portion of the work. Then again, you may truly need for him to own 50% of the work--I'm just saying, don't let your sense of fairness get in the way of your happiness.
Also, consider what parts of this arrangement you do by choice. Do you enjoy cooking? Do you enjoy mopping? If not... stop. Or cut way back. Let the house get a little dusty. Eat tuna for dinner once a week. It's ok.
posted by Meg_Murry at 9:04 PM on August 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
My girlfriend and I just came up with a system for this. Like, literally minutes ago. So I can't tell you if it worked or not, but here goes:
-We start by accepting that I will not just notice that things are out of place. You probably walk into a room, see a dvd sitting on the coffee table, and think, "this is supposed to be in the dvd drawer." He doesn't think that way. Neither do I. Neither of us ever will, and a system that relies on changing that will fail.
-So, instead, I need to have a list of tasks that have to be done regularly. Knowing I have to "straighten up the living room" means that the dvd will get put away, even though I can walk by it a hundred times without putting it away otherwise.
-We put the list on the fridge. This is important, because I forget to do things. If you're not a person who forgets to do things, it's really hard to understand what it's like. But, for example, I intended to do laundry all day today. I reminded myself about 15 times. About an hour ago, I realized that I forgot to do it. So, the list goes on the fridge.
That's pretty much it. It seems like it'll help. But, also, you're doing too much housework. He should be doing more, but also, you should be doing less in general. Like everyone else, I think mopping every other day is excessive. It also seems like you're spending a lot of time cooking, and some shortcuts would be ok. Hell, when they did an episode of Top Chef with people from Rao's in NY, the Rao's guys told them that it was totally ok to use dried pasta. So you don't have to make your own all the time. I think you'll resent him less if you don't have to work as hard.
Finally, I would like to very gently suggest that you think differently about what it means when you remind him to do something. If he does things happily when you remind him, then it's really not personal - he doesn't see the clutter the way you do, and just needs a poke. It's like you're playing The Sims - just click on him and say "take out the garbage" and the garbage will be taken out. It may just be the way he's wired, in which case you'll only drive yourself crazy by reading all sorts of other things into it.
posted by Ragged Richard at 9:22 PM on August 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
-We start by accepting that I will not just notice that things are out of place. You probably walk into a room, see a dvd sitting on the coffee table, and think, "this is supposed to be in the dvd drawer." He doesn't think that way. Neither do I. Neither of us ever will, and a system that relies on changing that will fail.
-So, instead, I need to have a list of tasks that have to be done regularly. Knowing I have to "straighten up the living room" means that the dvd will get put away, even though I can walk by it a hundred times without putting it away otherwise.
-We put the list on the fridge. This is important, because I forget to do things. If you're not a person who forgets to do things, it's really hard to understand what it's like. But, for example, I intended to do laundry all day today. I reminded myself about 15 times. About an hour ago, I realized that I forgot to do it. So, the list goes on the fridge.
That's pretty much it. It seems like it'll help. But, also, you're doing too much housework. He should be doing more, but also, you should be doing less in general. Like everyone else, I think mopping every other day is excessive. It also seems like you're spending a lot of time cooking, and some shortcuts would be ok. Hell, when they did an episode of Top Chef with people from Rao's in NY, the Rao's guys told them that it was totally ok to use dried pasta. So you don't have to make your own all the time. I think you'll resent him less if you don't have to work as hard.
Finally, I would like to very gently suggest that you think differently about what it means when you remind him to do something. If he does things happily when you remind him, then it's really not personal - he doesn't see the clutter the way you do, and just needs a poke. It's like you're playing The Sims - just click on him and say "take out the garbage" and the garbage will be taken out. It may just be the way he's wired, in which case you'll only drive yourself crazy by reading all sorts of other things into it.
posted by Ragged Richard at 9:22 PM on August 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
If the person is doing all work stuff and taking a shower and going to bed, okay. But in most cases they are playing video games or watching the Yankees or calling up Randy to talk for a while about the fantasy league or WoW or something. It just isn't believable that these people have no time to do their part in the upkeep of the home. The time is there, they just put work and almost everything else (including surfing the web) in front of it.
rakim, I agree with most of your post. But when my husband was in grad school, he didn't play video games or watch sports (we've never had a television), and all his interactions with friends were course-related. Yeah, he did surf the Web sometimes (although a lot of this was back before the Web was such a big sucking time sink, believe it or not). But I am not kidding. Grad students, especially if they're doing any kind of programming (and most hard science fields require this now), are totally immersed to the exclusion of all else. I'm assuming that "Joe" is in a very similar situation. If he's going for a Ph.D., add on top of that stress and anxiety about getting postdocs/tenure-track jobs, etc., and washing a sinkful of dishes can come to seem like valuable time wasted that could be spent working. I cut my husband a *lot* of slack, especially towards the end, and he needed it.
Yes, I know the obvious thing seems to be to sit down like grownups and divide up the labor fairly. It sounds so easy! But in practice it's harder to enforce. And if someone hates doing housework and leaves it undone, it doesn't mean he is immature and needs to grow up. (well, ok. Maybe a little.) It just means he hates housework and will put it off as long as he can. Finding ways to expedite getting things done while maintaining marital harmony is a practical solution.
posted by tully_monster at 9:27 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
rakim, I agree with most of your post. But when my husband was in grad school, he didn't play video games or watch sports (we've never had a television), and all his interactions with friends were course-related. Yeah, he did surf the Web sometimes (although a lot of this was back before the Web was such a big sucking time sink, believe it or not). But I am not kidding. Grad students, especially if they're doing any kind of programming (and most hard science fields require this now), are totally immersed to the exclusion of all else. I'm assuming that "Joe" is in a very similar situation. If he's going for a Ph.D., add on top of that stress and anxiety about getting postdocs/tenure-track jobs, etc., and washing a sinkful of dishes can come to seem like valuable time wasted that could be spent working. I cut my husband a *lot* of slack, especially towards the end, and he needed it.
Yes, I know the obvious thing seems to be to sit down like grownups and divide up the labor fairly. It sounds so easy! But in practice it's harder to enforce. And if someone hates doing housework and leaves it undone, it doesn't mean he is immature and needs to grow up. (well, ok. Maybe a little.) It just means he hates housework and will put it off as long as he can. Finding ways to expedite getting things done while maintaining marital harmony is a practical solution.
posted by tully_monster at 9:27 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I want to echo that the standards you're holding yourself and your husband to are very, very high. Mopping is not a 3x/week thing for most people (honestly, I think it's a once a month thing unless there's a mess), and you don't need to make fancy dinners every night. Unless you like to, in which case, i don't think it's totally fair to expect your husband to keep up with that standard.
I wonder if part of the reason he thinks of housework as "your job" is that it is so much more important to you. You "own" that part of the relationship and so he's expecting you to take the lead in that area. I'm not saying it's fair, but it might be what's happening. If you're not happy "owning" all the housework, then you need to let him own part of it. But then you don't get to control it. For instance, if you give him control over the laundry, you have to accept that it might not get done until the last minute. If you give him control over the bathroom, it might not get cleaned as often as you would clean it. Would that be ok with you?
posted by wholebroad at 9:42 PM on August 29, 2011 [5 favorites]
I wonder if part of the reason he thinks of housework as "your job" is that it is so much more important to you. You "own" that part of the relationship and so he's expecting you to take the lead in that area. I'm not saying it's fair, but it might be what's happening. If you're not happy "owning" all the housework, then you need to let him own part of it. But then you don't get to control it. For instance, if you give him control over the laundry, you have to accept that it might not get done until the last minute. If you give him control over the bathroom, it might not get cleaned as often as you would clean it. Would that be ok with you?
posted by wholebroad at 9:42 PM on August 29, 2011 [5 favorites]
i dont have any specific advice, but i have an approach that might be useful. Treat this like a negotiation.
Remove the fact that this is your spouse for a minute.
You want a specific outcome, meeting that goal requires you to enlist the support of an individual who you can influence but cannot control. There are tricks you can play that elicit short run compliance, but to build a long term, stable solution you need to craft a solution that allows both of you to win. This requires understanding both your and your counterparty's main issues, interests and positions. This also assumes your negotiating partner wants a win/win vs win/lose solution.
going back to your situation, and it sounds like you both want a win/win solution... let's hypothesize about the issues, interests and positions.
Imagining myself as you one breakdown might be:
issue: shared sacrifice
interest (why do I care): i view it as a signal of commitment to the relationship
position: we need equitable distribution of household chores
for him, based on your observation that he did not want his parents to find out about his cooking, I might imagine breakdown might be:
Issue: Respect from parents
Interest: I want respect from my parents to maintain sense of self-worth
position: live up to parents expectations, including assumed expectations of gender roles
additionally for both of you,
issue: health and duration of relationship
interest: maintaining healthy, long lived relationship is an emotional and financial plus
but your positions may be different, it seems like your position is to continue to take on a larger share of household chores, whereas he might perceive that doing the bills and finances is his part of contributing. Or given his background, he might perceive your nagging as a representation of long lived relationships because that's what old married couples do.
....
So what to do? Well, I'd do the analysis for your spouse and yourself... and try and focus on the issues and interests.
now at this point what you have is assumptions and hypotheses based on your observations. you don't actually know what he's thinking.
To learn his issues so that you can build a sustainable solution, you'll need to have a conversation about the issues and interest not the positions. To get honest responses, you'll need to share your issues and interests. You'll want to think through your opening statements and comments to make sure you dont produce a defensive reaction. Part of this requires not dismissing his issues irrespective of how silly you may think them to be. Being dismissive of the underlying issues is. sure way to eliminate trust and shut down the joint problem solving exercise.
posted by cheez-it at 9:54 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Remove the fact that this is your spouse for a minute.
You want a specific outcome, meeting that goal requires you to enlist the support of an individual who you can influence but cannot control. There are tricks you can play that elicit short run compliance, but to build a long term, stable solution you need to craft a solution that allows both of you to win. This requires understanding both your and your counterparty's main issues, interests and positions. This also assumes your negotiating partner wants a win/win vs win/lose solution.
going back to your situation, and it sounds like you both want a win/win solution... let's hypothesize about the issues, interests and positions.
Imagining myself as you one breakdown might be:
issue: shared sacrifice
interest (why do I care): i view it as a signal of commitment to the relationship
position: we need equitable distribution of household chores
for him, based on your observation that he did not want his parents to find out about his cooking, I might imagine breakdown might be:
Issue: Respect from parents
Interest: I want respect from my parents to maintain sense of self-worth
position: live up to parents expectations, including assumed expectations of gender roles
additionally for both of you,
issue: health and duration of relationship
interest: maintaining healthy, long lived relationship is an emotional and financial plus
but your positions may be different, it seems like your position is to continue to take on a larger share of household chores, whereas he might perceive that doing the bills and finances is his part of contributing. Or given his background, he might perceive your nagging as a representation of long lived relationships because that's what old married couples do.
....
So what to do? Well, I'd do the analysis for your spouse and yourself... and try and focus on the issues and interests.
now at this point what you have is assumptions and hypotheses based on your observations. you don't actually know what he's thinking.
To learn his issues so that you can build a sustainable solution, you'll need to have a conversation about the issues and interest not the positions. To get honest responses, you'll need to share your issues and interests. You'll want to think through your opening statements and comments to make sure you dont produce a defensive reaction. Part of this requires not dismissing his issues irrespective of how silly you may think them to be. Being dismissive of the underlying issues is. sure way to eliminate trust and shut down the joint problem solving exercise.
posted by cheez-it at 9:54 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think this might not have as much to do with sexism as it seems. I hate to admit it, but I've probably been your husband in roommate situations (with other women) before, but here's why:
I detected a creeping expectation that I... should obviously take care of everything in the house
I definitely had the attitude at times that the other person should be doing the bulk of the chores that were being done, because I considered the amount of chore-doing completely excessive. Things like, you know, deciding the windows should be washed once a week and then washing them once a week whether they were dirty or not. To be perfectly honest, I kind of consider washing windows *at all* to be excessive, if they're just kind of dusty and not like covered in bird poo or something.
In total seriousness, I really admire you for how much you clean. I wish I were motivated to clean that much. And I wish I were that bothered by the things that bother you and other super clean people. But I'm really just not, alas. I kind of suspect that you may be far cleaner than the average person. I don't think I've met a single person in my whole life who mops the floor every other day, including my mega-clean roommate who came from a family where her grandmother would wipe water droplets out of the shower after using it, and her mother's first comment upon seeing our place for the first time was... what a pity it was that we hadn't washed the windows.
Just wanted to kind of give the perspective from the other side in case it's at all helpful.
posted by Ashley801 at 9:55 PM on August 29, 2011 [8 favorites]
I detected a creeping expectation that I... should obviously take care of everything in the house
I definitely had the attitude at times that the other person should be doing the bulk of the chores that were being done, because I considered the amount of chore-doing completely excessive. Things like, you know, deciding the windows should be washed once a week and then washing them once a week whether they were dirty or not. To be perfectly honest, I kind of consider washing windows *at all* to be excessive, if they're just kind of dusty and not like covered in bird poo or something.
In total seriousness, I really admire you for how much you clean. I wish I were motivated to clean that much. And I wish I were that bothered by the things that bother you and other super clean people. But I'm really just not, alas. I kind of suspect that you may be far cleaner than the average person. I don't think I've met a single person in my whole life who mops the floor every other day, including my mega-clean roommate who came from a family where her grandmother would wipe water droplets out of the shower after using it, and her mother's first comment upon seeing our place for the first time was... what a pity it was that we hadn't washed the windows.
Just wanted to kind of give the perspective from the other side in case it's at all helpful.
posted by Ashley801 at 9:55 PM on August 29, 2011 [8 favorites]
I used to do what you are doing. Then I just stopped cooking. No cooking at all. I am happy with a bowl of cereal for dinner. I have not cooked in 3 years. If my husband wants a home cooked meal, he has to cook it himself. And I am a very good cook :(
If you cook, the other people do the dishes, clean the kitchen, and put everything away.
Wash the floors once a week.
Don't remind him or do his chores for him.
My husband does his own laundry. And the household laundry (towels, sheets, etc.)
I have been married for 22 years. I work full time. I still perform the majority of the cleaning, but more out of my finickiness. I think my husband is still wondering why his mom is not picking up his socks.
posted by fifilaru at 10:01 PM on August 29, 2011
If you cook, the other people do the dishes, clean the kitchen, and put everything away.
Wash the floors once a week.
Don't remind him or do his chores for him.
My husband does his own laundry. And the household laundry (towels, sheets, etc.)
I have been married for 22 years. I work full time. I still perform the majority of the cleaning, but more out of my finickiness. I think my husband is still wondering why his mom is not picking up his socks.
posted by fifilaru at 10:01 PM on August 29, 2011
neat freaks who go all chore nazi on me are one of my pet peeves. sit down and hear my point of view, just for a minute:
I PERSONALLY REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT HAVING THINGS ALL NEAT AND TIDY. I JUST DON'T. i don't care that much how often the living room floor is mopped. dishes are fine piled up in the sink, i really don't give a damn either way. laundry goes where it belongs, on the floor. if you don't believe me, look at my apartment.
now, if i really don't care about this stuff, and would be perfectly happy with it the way it is (ie. messy) why is it all of a sudden MY JOB to keep things clean? even half of them? i really don't care about that stuff, and am happy with the mess! when i have free time, i prefer to surf the web or watch a netflick with you, play fantasy baseball, whatever. if you, my s.o. want things clean, great - knock yourself out. whatever makes you happy. however, if *i* have to spend a lot of time on it, i'd rather things were left messy and i didn't have to do so much work around the house.
no one asked you to clean the bathroom. you're the one getting all obsessed about the bathroom, not me. i'm fine leaving the bathroom just the way it is.
if you want fair, stop doing so much frikkin housework all the time. there, now it's fair. if your husband doesn't like it, tell him you'll clean something as soon as he gets off his ass and helps you. fairness attained, regardless of his actions.
if he doesn't actually care about this stuff, i'm not sure how you nagging him to help out all the time is really actually fair. to me, it feels like some ocd neat freak shoving their obsession down my throat, against my will.
^^^messy person's point of view
posted by messiahwannabe at 10:09 PM on August 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
I PERSONALLY REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT HAVING THINGS ALL NEAT AND TIDY. I JUST DON'T. i don't care that much how often the living room floor is mopped. dishes are fine piled up in the sink, i really don't give a damn either way. laundry goes where it belongs, on the floor. if you don't believe me, look at my apartment.
now, if i really don't care about this stuff, and would be perfectly happy with it the way it is (ie. messy) why is it all of a sudden MY JOB to keep things clean? even half of them? i really don't care about that stuff, and am happy with the mess! when i have free time, i prefer to surf the web or watch a netflick with you, play fantasy baseball, whatever. if you, my s.o. want things clean, great - knock yourself out. whatever makes you happy. however, if *i* have to spend a lot of time on it, i'd rather things were left messy and i didn't have to do so much work around the house.
no one asked you to clean the bathroom. you're the one getting all obsessed about the bathroom, not me. i'm fine leaving the bathroom just the way it is.
if you want fair, stop doing so much frikkin housework all the time. there, now it's fair. if your husband doesn't like it, tell him you'll clean something as soon as he gets off his ass and helps you. fairness attained, regardless of his actions.
if he doesn't actually care about this stuff, i'm not sure how you nagging him to help out all the time is really actually fair. to me, it feels like some ocd neat freak shoving their obsession down my throat, against my will.
^^^messy person's point of view
posted by messiahwannabe at 10:09 PM on August 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
Yep that's pretty much how I feel too, except in my case it's flavored with quite a bit of guilt for feeling that way.
posted by Ashley801 at 10:12 PM on August 29, 2011
posted by Ashley801 at 10:12 PM on August 29, 2011
I think it is odd your husband wants this gender division where you are the breadwinner AND the maid. I would recommend that you assign an hourly rate to your housekeeping and invoice him every month (since he pays the bills). Include the time you have to spend keeping track of your billable hours too. Your hourly rate should be at least what you earn in your ordinary employment. Maybe having your own earned mad money, that you can spend on what you want, will help your bitterness. (if you are smart, you will spend part of it on a housekeeper cheaper than your rate). And if it stretches out the family budget then he will have to contribute to solving that problem by either earning more money, reducing his own expenses or doing more chores so you are paid less. Some people do not value work until money is attached to it.
And really reconsider having children until the two of you have come to happy agreement on the value of unpaid work.
And I REALLY agree with rakim. Until your husband thinks (and his actions and word reflect that) your opinions and feelings are more important than his parent's, you aren't really married, you're just a divorce waiting to happen.
posted by saucysault at 10:23 PM on August 29, 2011
And really reconsider having children until the two of you have come to happy agreement on the value of unpaid work.
And I REALLY agree with rakim. Until your husband thinks (and his actions and word reflect that) your opinions and feelings are more important than his parent's, you aren't really married, you're just a divorce waiting to happen.
posted by saucysault at 10:23 PM on August 29, 2011
I dunno man. I think this is one of those things where some people can change and become used to being a far neater person with effort, and other people will never get used to it and just constantly backslide no matter how much they love the person. Like, my dog needed to have long walks every day, and I did it to the end of his life because I loved him, but fuck if I didn't dread that every day, and I will only have dogs in the future if I'm living in the country where they can just run around by themselves. I think perhaps you are in the group of people who is able to make a permanent change, and I might be in the group of people who will always backslide. I've learned that for me, choosing a partner who is much cleaner than I am would probably end badly and I maybe should just not even go there.
posted by Ashley801 at 10:32 PM on August 29, 2011
posted by Ashley801 at 10:32 PM on August 29, 2011
Also, messiahwannabe and Ashley801, the OP says her husband likes a clean and neat house. I don't think he's like you guys at all.
posted by Tarumba at 10:35 PM on August 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by Tarumba at 10:35 PM on August 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
You could definitely be right, Tarumba. I definitely don't want to project anything onto him, just offer another perspective that might be relevant. However, of course I like living in a clean house, what's not to like, it's pleasant. I just also like living in a messy one too. So, we don't know. I might have missed something in the OP, but even though he likes cleanliness, he might like messiness too.
posted by Ashley801 at 10:41 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Ashley801 at 10:41 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Each do your own laundry. Whoever cooks doesn't clean up afterward. More cooking doesn't get done until the previous meal has been cleaned up.
We divide up chores based on preference/inclination. I take care of bills, he does the grocery shopping. He does more of the cooking than I do, but we do take turns. He takes out the garbage and recycling slightly more often than I do. I always clean the bathroom, do more of the floor dusting/washing, and more reorganizing. He will wash the kitchen floor unasked sometimes, will do the living room/dining room floors if asked, and sweeps up out front more often. I take primary responsibility for the planting, fertilizing, pruning, and fussing over the (extensive) container garden, but he does the early morning watering. I repair appliances, he does wood/drywall/paint repairs.
I don't know about you and your husband, but I find that framing it in terms of gender roles gets everyone more defensive. The point is that this is OUR home and we're partners and we take care of each other and ourselves. Besides, this stuff is largely inconsequential if we both just do a bit along the way, and doing stuff to make the other person happy makes you feel good.
posted by desuetude at 10:56 PM on August 29, 2011
We divide up chores based on preference/inclination. I take care of bills, he does the grocery shopping. He does more of the cooking than I do, but we do take turns. He takes out the garbage and recycling slightly more often than I do. I always clean the bathroom, do more of the floor dusting/washing, and more reorganizing. He will wash the kitchen floor unasked sometimes, will do the living room/dining room floors if asked, and sweeps up out front more often. I take primary responsibility for the planting, fertilizing, pruning, and fussing over the (extensive) container garden, but he does the early morning watering. I repair appliances, he does wood/drywall/paint repairs.
I don't know about you and your husband, but I find that framing it in terms of gender roles gets everyone more defensive. The point is that this is OUR home and we're partners and we take care of each other and ourselves. Besides, this stuff is largely inconsequential if we both just do a bit along the way, and doing stuff to make the other person happy makes you feel good.
posted by desuetude at 10:56 PM on August 29, 2011
My husband's upbringing sounds a lot like your husband's, but my husband doesn't care about things being disorganized. So I got stuck reminding him to take out the trash and do the dishes, etc. (and doing his chores for him about half the time) until I broke my leg earlier this year and he had to do ALL the chores and all the cooking. Then he realized how much work "the little things" actually are. He had no idea how much work went into keeping the apartment from being covered in filth because he'd never had to do it himself. Sure, he'd walk the trash to the curb, but his mom was the one who bagged everything up. I had a moment of revelation, he doesn't even KNOW HOW to do half of the chores I do. It helped me deal with a lot of the resentment and frustration I was feeling: it's not laziness, or latent misogyny, he just doesn't KNOW this stuff because no one taught him. So now, I give the poor guy a break. When I mop the floor, I say, "Hey, I'm mopping the floor, let's go through what I'm doing step by step and maybe you take over halfway through". He's good with laundry, passable with the dishes, good with vacuuming. But the stuff that I'm nit picky about (counters, bathroom) I do myself, because honestly, it's just easier.
Basically, I agree with the previous comments of "let the filth build up until he notices" and then figure out what he's good at and what can be taught to find a fair balance. And then set up a schedule for him, that he will actually stick to.
posted by blueskiesinside at 10:56 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Basically, I agree with the previous comments of "let the filth build up until he notices" and then figure out what he's good at and what can be taught to find a fair balance. And then set up a schedule for him, that he will actually stick to.
posted by blueskiesinside at 10:56 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Another way to think about this is *even* allocation of *time*, rather than specific chores.
As we have similar schedules (8-5 jobs) and aren't tied to a television schedule, Dear Wife and I generally do house-chorey stuff at the same time - ie we aim to spend about the same amount of time doing chore stuff. There are some chores each of us prefer to do or are better at or whatever, but while one person is busy doing chore stuff, the other one must make themselves busy too.
So the typical example at our house is that Dear Wife cooks most often as she prefers to cook food she likes. That's cool. While she's doing that, I find stuff that needs to be done - tidy the house, empty the dishwasher, put the laundry on, supervise children's bath. I'll stop doing stuff when called to dinner. After dinner one person cleans up and the other one finds some other chores to do. When the kitchen is done, the other chores stop too, and that's it for the day.
posted by jjderooy at 11:00 PM on August 29, 2011
As we have similar schedules (8-5 jobs) and aren't tied to a television schedule, Dear Wife and I generally do house-chorey stuff at the same time - ie we aim to spend about the same amount of time doing chore stuff. There are some chores each of us prefer to do or are better at or whatever, but while one person is busy doing chore stuff, the other one must make themselves busy too.
So the typical example at our house is that Dear Wife cooks most often as she prefers to cook food she likes. That's cool. While she's doing that, I find stuff that needs to be done - tidy the house, empty the dishwasher, put the laundry on, supervise children's bath. I'll stop doing stuff when called to dinner. After dinner one person cleans up and the other one finds some other chores to do. When the kitchen is done, the other chores stop too, and that's it for the day.
posted by jjderooy at 11:00 PM on August 29, 2011
holy banana bread... you're making wives like me look bad!
I have literally never mopped the floors, never. And my husband doesn't do it either. The floors don't seem any worse for the wear from it.. they get swept like once every week or two and that seems to do it unless there's some specific spot or stain requiring a sponge. We split the housework based on who prefers to do which chores, as many people do above.
Anyway the reason we do it the way we do is because we both have different thresholds at which we start feeling something needs to be done, and I think that's the crux of your problem. My husband is a very neat guy, almost OCD in some ways, but I've never once seen him decide to sponge off the kitchen counters or sweep the floor, even when they're quite noticeably dirty. He has a very high threshold for putting up with cat hair on the floor and sauce-y counters. I'm not a very neat person at all and I am comfortable living in a state of quasi-chaos, but those things bug me. On the other hand I can wear my clothes until they are caked with mud, and if the dishwasher is full, I either try to cram more things into nooks and crannies, or I wash one item in the sink and reuse it. I have an extremely high threshold for dirty dishes.
We complement each other pretty well... that's why it's so great to be married to him!
posted by treehorn+bunny at 11:49 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I have literally never mopped the floors, never. And my husband doesn't do it either. The floors don't seem any worse for the wear from it.. they get swept like once every week or two and that seems to do it unless there's some specific spot or stain requiring a sponge. We split the housework based on who prefers to do which chores, as many people do above.
Anyway the reason we do it the way we do is because we both have different thresholds at which we start feeling something needs to be done, and I think that's the crux of your problem. My husband is a very neat guy, almost OCD in some ways, but I've never once seen him decide to sponge off the kitchen counters or sweep the floor, even when they're quite noticeably dirty. He has a very high threshold for putting up with cat hair on the floor and sauce-y counters. I'm not a very neat person at all and I am comfortable living in a state of quasi-chaos, but those things bug me. On the other hand I can wear my clothes until they are caked with mud, and if the dishwasher is full, I either try to cram more things into nooks and crannies, or I wash one item in the sink and reuse it. I have an extremely high threshold for dirty dishes.
We complement each other pretty well... that's why it's so great to be married to him!
posted by treehorn+bunny at 11:49 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
p.s. I love that you're having sex three times a week "unintentionally".... if 3 times a week if your bad week, I would like to know how many times per day you have sex in a good week. I'd think that would be motivation enough for Joe to get on the chore wagon.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 11:52 PM on August 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by treehorn+bunny at 11:52 PM on August 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
The solution we have settled into, from a similar starting point to yours, is that my husband takes sole responsibility for a few realms and I never ever have to even think about them. They just get done. The only way that works, though is if they are realms where either he has a lower dirt-threshold than me, or where there is an external consequence if he doesn't do it.
So that means he keeps the kitchen clean (he can see dirt in the kitchen where I would need a magnifying glass to spot it, and he's really grossed out by dirty food prep areas). He takes the rubbish out. (If he forgets, it smells, and he has a better sense of smell than me). He is in charge of grocery shopping. I usually go with him, but he decides when it is time to shop and makes the list. This works because he LOVES to grocery shop, and I will procrastinate on it forever. He does the laundry, because I have more clothes than him, so I can hold out longer when it comes to playing chicken until we run out of clean things. In your case, I recommend buying more pairs of underpants.
Other areas where your husband would learn to take charge very quickly or face consequences are bill-paying and pet feeding.
Even if the amount of work doesn't end up divided evenly, it's very freeing to not feel you have to supervise or ever think about certain tasks, and that they just happen. Also seeing him man up and clean or do an errand of his own accord is pretty cool. (Especially so when his parents are visiting and his mother gasps and acts amazed that it is possible for a man to do such work.)
posted by lollusc at 12:07 AM on August 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
So that means he keeps the kitchen clean (he can see dirt in the kitchen where I would need a magnifying glass to spot it, and he's really grossed out by dirty food prep areas). He takes the rubbish out. (If he forgets, it smells, and he has a better sense of smell than me). He is in charge of grocery shopping. I usually go with him, but he decides when it is time to shop and makes the list. This works because he LOVES to grocery shop, and I will procrastinate on it forever. He does the laundry, because I have more clothes than him, so I can hold out longer when it comes to playing chicken until we run out of clean things. In your case, I recommend buying more pairs of underpants.
Other areas where your husband would learn to take charge very quickly or face consequences are bill-paying and pet feeding.
Even if the amount of work doesn't end up divided evenly, it's very freeing to not feel you have to supervise or ever think about certain tasks, and that they just happen. Also seeing him man up and clean or do an errand of his own accord is pretty cool. (Especially so when his parents are visiting and his mother gasps and acts amazed that it is possible for a man to do such work.)
posted by lollusc at 12:07 AM on August 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
I just want to throw in that about a year ago, after many years of marriage, I faced the fact that my husband may never clean a kitchen counter, and that he may always leave a peanut butter-y knife on that counter every night for the rest of our lives. Something I read just suddenly, in one moment, helped me accept this. Now, nearly daily, I pick up that knife, rinse it off and stick it in the dishwasher, wipe the crumbs and peanut butter off the counter, and go peacefully on my way. I used to be so cranky about it, but I decided to accept it. I'm happier now.
posted by Ellemeno at 1:09 AM on August 30, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by Ellemeno at 1:09 AM on August 30, 2011 [5 favorites]
I tend to agree with some of the other folks who think some of your expectations around base level cleanliness are... outside the norm. That's fine - for you. But if you're going to get upset that your standards are higher than most people, well, that isn't going to help.
He likes the clean, neat house, sure, but does he think that the floors need mopping every other day? Because for things like that, well, you'll likely never get him on-board. It would be like me trying to persuade my wife that, I dunno, we need to buy a second car instead of fix the roof. Sure, it would be handy, but she cares a lot less about cars than I do, and a lot more about fixing the damn roof.
So, yeah, stake out what you both think is necessary. That said, I'll also echo that for real basics, arrangements like:
Each do your own laundry. Whoever cooks doesn't clean up afterward. More cooking doesn't get done until the previous meal has been cleaned up.
...seem like a good starting point, because it engineers automatic compliance. You aren't doing his washing, and if he wants to leave it until the last minute and runs out of clothes? Not your problem. You cook every night, he'll do dishes every night, if he gets sick of doing dishes, he'll cook.
Also: We live in a digital age. I have alarms on my phone and computer to remind me to stop fucking around and go to bed, to stop fucking around and do my French homework, to stop fucking around and go to the gym, to give the cat his medicine... you get the idea. Does your husband need reminding when his lectures and appointments and deadlines are? Doesn't sound like it. He *chooses* to use tools (memory, calendar, phone, whatever) to make those, he *chooses* not to use the same tools to, oh, take the rubbish out, do the dishes, whatever.
I'll also echo the comments about parents. Yeah, it's hard, but he needs to not lie about your domestic arrangements to keep his parents happy. If he's afraid to mention that he *gasped* cooked, what happens when you have kids? Will he be refusing to change nappies in case his dad starts chanting "pussy-whipped, pussy-whipped"?
And kids, jeeze. You're right to be worried. In ten years from now when you've got a good, solid career going from having been in the job market for ages and it turns out his mathy-y, difficult discipline hasn't given him great employment prospects, which is exactly the situation a number of women I know got into at having-kids-now-or-never age, what are you going to do? Go down the route of my friend who is working full-time (only way to makes ends meet, she's the high earner) while he works part time and takes care of the kid (hint: generally, getting up before 9 is involved in that, champ), comes home from a full day at work to "her turn" looking after said kid, and, oh, cooking and cleaning and stuff because those are things "she cares more about" and must therefore be her problem. Sound good? No, me either.
You're right he's not a bad person. He sounds like he has worked hard to overcome some bad attitudes. That's great. But he's got shitty habits. The only way to break shitty habits is to *actually break them*. If you're overweight because you eat to much and don't exercise enough, *you actually need to eat less and go for a walk*. If you're acting like a sexist pig by treating housework as not-your-problem-except-when-you-feel-like-doing-a-favour, then *you need to take effective steps to do more of the work*.
posted by rodgerd at 2:11 AM on August 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
He likes the clean, neat house, sure, but does he think that the floors need mopping every other day? Because for things like that, well, you'll likely never get him on-board. It would be like me trying to persuade my wife that, I dunno, we need to buy a second car instead of fix the roof. Sure, it would be handy, but she cares a lot less about cars than I do, and a lot more about fixing the damn roof.
So, yeah, stake out what you both think is necessary. That said, I'll also echo that for real basics, arrangements like:
Each do your own laundry. Whoever cooks doesn't clean up afterward. More cooking doesn't get done until the previous meal has been cleaned up.
...seem like a good starting point, because it engineers automatic compliance. You aren't doing his washing, and if he wants to leave it until the last minute and runs out of clothes? Not your problem. You cook every night, he'll do dishes every night, if he gets sick of doing dishes, he'll cook.
Also: We live in a digital age. I have alarms on my phone and computer to remind me to stop fucking around and go to bed, to stop fucking around and do my French homework, to stop fucking around and go to the gym, to give the cat his medicine... you get the idea. Does your husband need reminding when his lectures and appointments and deadlines are? Doesn't sound like it. He *chooses* to use tools (memory, calendar, phone, whatever) to make those, he *chooses* not to use the same tools to, oh, take the rubbish out, do the dishes, whatever.
I'll also echo the comments about parents. Yeah, it's hard, but he needs to not lie about your domestic arrangements to keep his parents happy. If he's afraid to mention that he *gasped* cooked, what happens when you have kids? Will he be refusing to change nappies in case his dad starts chanting "pussy-whipped, pussy-whipped"?
And kids, jeeze. You're right to be worried. In ten years from now when you've got a good, solid career going from having been in the job market for ages and it turns out his mathy-y, difficult discipline hasn't given him great employment prospects, which is exactly the situation a number of women I know got into at having-kids-now-or-never age, what are you going to do? Go down the route of my friend who is working full-time (only way to makes ends meet, she's the high earner) while he works part time and takes care of the kid (hint: generally, getting up before 9 is involved in that, champ), comes home from a full day at work to "her turn" looking after said kid, and, oh, cooking and cleaning and stuff because those are things "she cares more about" and must therefore be her problem. Sound good? No, me either.
You're right he's not a bad person. He sounds like he has worked hard to overcome some bad attitudes. That's great. But he's got shitty habits. The only way to break shitty habits is to *actually break them*. If you're overweight because you eat to much and don't exercise enough, *you actually need to eat less and go for a walk*. If you're acting like a sexist pig by treating housework as not-your-problem-except-when-you-feel-like-doing-a-favour, then *you need to take effective steps to do more of the work*.
posted by rodgerd at 2:11 AM on August 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
We have some regular chores that we split in half - I cook one week and he washes dishes, he cooks next week and I wash dishes, each do laundry once a week. Then there are other chores that we don't have a schedule for but do as they need to be done - vacuum, clean bathroom, etc. For those we have a wall calendar and we mark down the chore we did in our special colour, so that looking at the calendar you can see when the last time something was done and who is doing more/less.
But this only works because we both have buy in and we both have responsibility and ownership over the situation. It doesn't sound like your husband does at all, and I imagine it's exhausting feeling like you're "in charge" of the whole house and have to assign him chores (what is he, a child?).
My recommendation would be to sit down together and work out the chores collaboratively. I would sit back at first and let him take the lead during brainstorming to make sure he's engaged. First, make a list of all the household chores that have to happen. When you're both happy with the list, each take a copy and mark down how often each thing should happen. Compare your lists. Then you have a point to negotiate from. Each person should make concessions to reach a compromise. Then you get to decide who does what how often. After that, I think lots of people have great ideas about how to keep him on track without nagging him. Google calendar reminders (that he sets up for himself of course) and wall/fridge charts are awesome for this.
Then, in a month's time, when he's stopped doing chores, it's not "I think this is important and you're not helping enough", but "we both devised and agreed to this plan. You aren't meeting the specific obligations you previously agreed to."
posted by mosessis at 4:21 AM on August 30, 2011
But this only works because we both have buy in and we both have responsibility and ownership over the situation. It doesn't sound like your husband does at all, and I imagine it's exhausting feeling like you're "in charge" of the whole house and have to assign him chores (what is he, a child?).
My recommendation would be to sit down together and work out the chores collaboratively. I would sit back at first and let him take the lead during brainstorming to make sure he's engaged. First, make a list of all the household chores that have to happen. When you're both happy with the list, each take a copy and mark down how often each thing should happen. Compare your lists. Then you have a point to negotiate from. Each person should make concessions to reach a compromise. Then you get to decide who does what how often. After that, I think lots of people have great ideas about how to keep him on track without nagging him. Google calendar reminders (that he sets up for himself of course) and wall/fridge charts are awesome for this.
Then, in a month's time, when he's stopped doing chores, it's not "I think this is important and you're not helping enough", but "we both devised and agreed to this plan. You aren't meeting the specific obligations you previously agreed to."
posted by mosessis at 4:21 AM on August 30, 2011
In theory my husband believes in equality around the house, but in practice he rarely takes any initiative. My wish was the same as yours: that he take responsibility for a share of the housework and just do it, without my having to ask. For us it took an actual, dead-serious, "I'm not happy in our marriage" fight before he took me seriously and began to do his share.
Things are much better now. He has several crucial chores he does daily on his own initiative. And if I ask him to do something else, he gets up and does it within minutes now whereas before he'd say he'd do it in a minute but then kept "forgetting" until I'd reminded him a dozen times over the course of a day and until we were both sick of the sound of my voice and totally pissed off.
Here's how we divvy things up:
I do all the cooking because he doesn't know how to even boil an egg and has no interest in learning. He cleans up the kitchen every night after dinner, takes out the trash and scoops the litter box (for which I am ever so thankful because it makes me gag.) He likes to have a real meal every night, and while I don't love cooking I don't mind it nearly so much now that I know the kitchen is not going to be a mess when I get in there.
I do all the grocery shopping. I’d prefer to do it together but he loathes it so I go by myself. But he carries the groceries in when I get home. I'm friggin' tired at that point so I just breeze in the door carrying nothing but my purse and tell him "you're on, Slick." He hauls the stuff in and drops the bags in the dining room, whereupon I usually impose upon him to help me put the food away. I think that annoys him because it wasn't officially negotiated as part of the deal, but seriously, the ten minutes it took him to unload the car into the handy wheelie-cart I bought him and bring it inside does not balance out the 2-3 hours I just spent slogging through the store.
We each do our own laundry. I made this rule on Day One. I do the towels because he doesn’t care and will use the same unwashed bath towel himself for... actually, probably forever but I've never let it go that long. I'll grab it and throw it in the wash after a week or so.
He would never, ever clean his bathroom no matter how filthy it got. I'm not even kidding. I have my own bathroom which I clean so it doesn't really affect me but eventually I get grossed out and clean it for him because it’s terrifying to think what might be growing in there.
I do most of the “picking up” because it’s mostly my shit laying around. But on heavy decluttering days he knows he’s on call for carrying boxes of donation stuff and bags of trash out of the apartment.
Usually I’m the one who dusts and vacuums when it gets done which is not nearly as often as it should. On heavy cleaning days (like a couple times a year when we are having company) all bets are off as far as my giving a shit what he likes/doesn’t like to do. I give him a chore list and a deadline.
I do the budget and pay the bills because I do most of the shopping and household planning. He has taken over the medical insurance and FSA stuff because it's complicated and makes my head hurt. He also does the taxes for the same reason. I also regularly ask him to research things for me on complex websites (like figuring out why my cell phone bill suddenly went up by fifty bucks, or what cable setup do we want) because he has a head for that kind of stuff and I don’t.
I do all the driving when we go out because he hates to. But we take my car, and I usually arrange to need gas by the weekend so I can pull up to the pump and sit there like a princess while he pumps it for me because I hate doing it.
This all works out pretty well for us. It doesn’t feel completely equal and I’m still the brains of the outfit as far as managing the household, but the fact that there are certain things he does every day without my having to ask relieved a lot of the tension. Plus there are non-household things that he does (like tutoring me in algebra) that make up for a whole lot of not picking up his socks.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 4:52 AM on August 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Things are much better now. He has several crucial chores he does daily on his own initiative. And if I ask him to do something else, he gets up and does it within minutes now whereas before he'd say he'd do it in a minute but then kept "forgetting" until I'd reminded him a dozen times over the course of a day and until we were both sick of the sound of my voice and totally pissed off.
Here's how we divvy things up:
I do all the cooking because he doesn't know how to even boil an egg and has no interest in learning. He cleans up the kitchen every night after dinner, takes out the trash and scoops the litter box (for which I am ever so thankful because it makes me gag.) He likes to have a real meal every night, and while I don't love cooking I don't mind it nearly so much now that I know the kitchen is not going to be a mess when I get in there.
I do all the grocery shopping. I’d prefer to do it together but he loathes it so I go by myself. But he carries the groceries in when I get home. I'm friggin' tired at that point so I just breeze in the door carrying nothing but my purse and tell him "you're on, Slick." He hauls the stuff in and drops the bags in the dining room, whereupon I usually impose upon him to help me put the food away. I think that annoys him because it wasn't officially negotiated as part of the deal, but seriously, the ten minutes it took him to unload the car into the handy wheelie-cart I bought him and bring it inside does not balance out the 2-3 hours I just spent slogging through the store.
We each do our own laundry. I made this rule on Day One. I do the towels because he doesn’t care and will use the same unwashed bath towel himself for... actually, probably forever but I've never let it go that long. I'll grab it and throw it in the wash after a week or so.
He would never, ever clean his bathroom no matter how filthy it got. I'm not even kidding. I have my own bathroom which I clean so it doesn't really affect me but eventually I get grossed out and clean it for him because it’s terrifying to think what might be growing in there.
I do most of the “picking up” because it’s mostly my shit laying around. But on heavy decluttering days he knows he’s on call for carrying boxes of donation stuff and bags of trash out of the apartment.
Usually I’m the one who dusts and vacuums when it gets done which is not nearly as often as it should. On heavy cleaning days (like a couple times a year when we are having company) all bets are off as far as my giving a shit what he likes/doesn’t like to do. I give him a chore list and a deadline.
I do the budget and pay the bills because I do most of the shopping and household planning. He has taken over the medical insurance and FSA stuff because it's complicated and makes my head hurt. He also does the taxes for the same reason. I also regularly ask him to research things for me on complex websites (like figuring out why my cell phone bill suddenly went up by fifty bucks, or what cable setup do we want) because he has a head for that kind of stuff and I don’t.
I do all the driving when we go out because he hates to. But we take my car, and I usually arrange to need gas by the weekend so I can pull up to the pump and sit there like a princess while he pumps it for me because I hate doing it.
This all works out pretty well for us. It doesn’t feel completely equal and I’m still the brains of the outfit as far as managing the household, but the fact that there are certain things he does every day without my having to ask relieved a lot of the tension. Plus there are non-household things that he does (like tutoring me in algebra) that make up for a whole lot of not picking up his socks.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 4:52 AM on August 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think this is likely a two- or three-pronged problem: Joe's still getting over the outdated gender roles he learned as a kid, he likely has lower standards of cleanliness than you, and he's used to this stuff being done for him and hasn't developed that inner chore-doing drive. All of these need a little bit of work.
Problem the first: It sounds like Joe would be a feminist if you sat him down at a table and had a discussion of feminist theory, but he hasn't completely translated that into practice. In Joe's defense, it can be easy to fall back on stereotypical gender expectations when they make life more convenient - and getting someone else to do the chores is the ultimate convenience. (I'm a feminist, but I used the "girls don't mow lawns" line to my advantage many times when my brothers and I were old enough to operate the mower.) You're not likely to get him to completely change things around by having sit-down discussions. But if you ever hear him saying something like "don't tell my parents I'm cooking," gently question him: "Do you really believe that?" or "well, does it matter if your parents think you're doing girly stuff?" You don't want to engage him in an argument, just gently point out the disconnect between what he's saying and what he (theoretically) believes.
Lower standards of cleanliness: Like Ashley801, I love clean houses but I'm fine with moderately messy ones. Some things I just don't see the point in doing very often or at all (if you're not constantly spilling things or tracking dirt in, you're not going to see much added benefit of mopping more than once a month), and some things I just don't consider worth the effort. (Your cooking especially reflects this: are you talking sushi and cake every week? Homemade pasta, like you dump a box of 59¢ vermicelli into boiling water, or you make the pasta dough and extrude it yourself? I love all those things, but not as much as I love having a free evening. Even if you like cooking, no wonder you're exhausted.) I'd suggest something similar to mosessis' idea: talk to him about how often he thinks all the chores should be done, and then draw up a trial schedule and stick to it for a month. Even if things get too messy for you, don't go above and beyond the schedule. At the end of the month, revisit. Starting completely from scratch and dividing up labor equally would work here. An alternative would be to have a list of all the things you do around the house, how often you do them, and how much time they take you, and ask Joe how much time he'd honestly spend on them if he lived alone. Then follow that schedule for a month and see how you both think things look at the end. Maybe Joe is totally cool with the slightly lower level of cleanliness. Maybe he'll start to realize how much work it is.
Probably the hardest thing to overcome is that he's just used to this stuff happening, and he expects someone else to take care of it because someone else always has. Gender theory and household schedules aside, that's a pain to overcome. (And, as I and others have mentioned, all that mopping and those homemade treats? He's got it pretty cushy.) You want to nip the nagging mom/surly resistant teenager dynamic in the bud, because it just doesn't ever get better. Work on positive reinforcement instead. If he cleans something, express appreciation every time. Keep it sincere but not condescending. If he does it without being reminded, even better. I'm about as domestic as a caveman, but when I find it in me to clean, it's because I know it will be noticed and appreciated, not because it's expected of me.
posted by Metroid Baby at 5:04 AM on August 30, 2011
Problem the first: It sounds like Joe would be a feminist if you sat him down at a table and had a discussion of feminist theory, but he hasn't completely translated that into practice. In Joe's defense, it can be easy to fall back on stereotypical gender expectations when they make life more convenient - and getting someone else to do the chores is the ultimate convenience. (I'm a feminist, but I used the "girls don't mow lawns" line to my advantage many times when my brothers and I were old enough to operate the mower.) You're not likely to get him to completely change things around by having sit-down discussions. But if you ever hear him saying something like "don't tell my parents I'm cooking," gently question him: "Do you really believe that?" or "well, does it matter if your parents think you're doing girly stuff?" You don't want to engage him in an argument, just gently point out the disconnect between what he's saying and what he (theoretically) believes.
Lower standards of cleanliness: Like Ashley801, I love clean houses but I'm fine with moderately messy ones. Some things I just don't see the point in doing very often or at all (if you're not constantly spilling things or tracking dirt in, you're not going to see much added benefit of mopping more than once a month), and some things I just don't consider worth the effort. (Your cooking especially reflects this: are you talking sushi and cake every week? Homemade pasta, like you dump a box of 59¢ vermicelli into boiling water, or you make the pasta dough and extrude it yourself? I love all those things, but not as much as I love having a free evening. Even if you like cooking, no wonder you're exhausted.) I'd suggest something similar to mosessis' idea: talk to him about how often he thinks all the chores should be done, and then draw up a trial schedule and stick to it for a month. Even if things get too messy for you, don't go above and beyond the schedule. At the end of the month, revisit. Starting completely from scratch and dividing up labor equally would work here. An alternative would be to have a list of all the things you do around the house, how often you do them, and how much time they take you, and ask Joe how much time he'd honestly spend on them if he lived alone. Then follow that schedule for a month and see how you both think things look at the end. Maybe Joe is totally cool with the slightly lower level of cleanliness. Maybe he'll start to realize how much work it is.
Probably the hardest thing to overcome is that he's just used to this stuff happening, and he expects someone else to take care of it because someone else always has. Gender theory and household schedules aside, that's a pain to overcome. (And, as I and others have mentioned, all that mopping and those homemade treats? He's got it pretty cushy.) You want to nip the nagging mom/surly resistant teenager dynamic in the bud, because it just doesn't ever get better. Work on positive reinforcement instead. If he cleans something, express appreciation every time. Keep it sincere but not condescending. If he does it without being reminded, even better. I'm about as domestic as a caveman, but when I find it in me to clean, it's because I know it will be noticed and appreciated, not because it's expected of me.
posted by Metroid Baby at 5:04 AM on August 30, 2011
We used to have this fight ALL the time. Then we moved to a new state, started new jobs, and had a baby. I think we got too busy to even see the house, let alone clean it. I said "you'll do dishes?" He said, "yeah." "OK, then I'll do laundry." Every once in awhile I bitch until he cleans a bathroom or two, but the rest of it either gets done or doesn't, and I'm OK with that. He gets home first, picks up the kids, makes dinner, does kitchen chores, and helps pick up all the kid detritus. I keep everyone clothed, sweep/mop/vacuum, scrub, manage bills, etc. I'm not saying we do any of it well, but we do it. And with two kids now and two careers, that's enough.
I think it's a combination of adjusted expectations and finally finding a division of work that makes sense to us both. We were married almost 10 years before we figured this out, so be patient and keep trying.
posted by hms71 at 5:50 AM on August 30, 2011
I think it's a combination of adjusted expectations and finally finding a division of work that makes sense to us both. We were married almost 10 years before we figured this out, so be patient and keep trying.
posted by hms71 at 5:50 AM on August 30, 2011
the young rope-rider said exactly what i've been saying to Mr. Oh Really for the last few weeks -- even though the distribution of chores is pretty even (with his weighted more towards big annoying projects, like drywalling, & mine weighted more towards annoying repetitive tasks, like cleaning the litterbox daily), i am 100% responsible for the mental management of the household & it's surprising how taxing that can be. he'll do almost any task i ask him to do -- but i have to ASK him to do it, & sometimes it really gets on my nerves. (like, if i saw a basket of clean laundry & had 15 free minutes while he was getting Toddler Oh Really ready for bed, i'd fold it & put it away ... he'd sit on the bed & play angry birds unless i specifically asked him to take care of it!)
the best solution i've found, as others have said, is scheduling reminders!
posted by oh really at 6:11 AM on August 30, 2011
the best solution i've found, as others have said, is scheduling reminders!
posted by oh really at 6:11 AM on August 30, 2011
He not only accepted, but actually agreed with me. In theory, anyway
He did this because he didn't want to talk about it anymore. Agreeing with you stopped the conversation.
I am the primary breadwinner in the family. Despite this - Mr. BuffaloChickenWing and I "split" the chores - though I feel it is still more on me. I have accepted the fact that the level of cleanliness I need is higher than Mr. BuffaloChickenWing's level. To a point you must accept the person you married is who they are. Likewise they must respect your need for cleanliness.
I took the - If I don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all approach. When I saw something didn't get done I would say - "You must have been very busy this week as I see the carpets didn't get vacuumed." I put together sometimes I was unable to get to everything myself - why was that okay?
When it really bothered me I would say, "It would be super if you could find it in your schedule to get the carpets vacuumed today." Usually it did get done.
If you own a home and he prefers to focus on traditional man duties - he can do all of the yard work:
Mowing
Trimming
Sweeping of debris
Racking leaves
Similar:
Oil Changes
Making sure the vehicles have routine maintenance
Car Washing
Regular Household maintenance - replacement of filters and such
posted by BuffaloChickenWing at 6:30 AM on August 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
He did this because he didn't want to talk about it anymore. Agreeing with you stopped the conversation.
I am the primary breadwinner in the family. Despite this - Mr. BuffaloChickenWing and I "split" the chores - though I feel it is still more on me. I have accepted the fact that the level of cleanliness I need is higher than Mr. BuffaloChickenWing's level. To a point you must accept the person you married is who they are. Likewise they must respect your need for cleanliness.
I took the - If I don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all approach. When I saw something didn't get done I would say - "You must have been very busy this week as I see the carpets didn't get vacuumed." I put together sometimes I was unable to get to everything myself - why was that okay?
When it really bothered me I would say, "It would be super if you could find it in your schedule to get the carpets vacuumed today." Usually it did get done.
If you own a home and he prefers to focus on traditional man duties - he can do all of the yard work:
Mowing
Trimming
Sweeping of debris
Racking leaves
Similar:
Oil Changes
Making sure the vehicles have routine maintenance
Car Washing
Regular Household maintenance - replacement of filters and such
posted by BuffaloChickenWing at 6:30 AM on August 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
My experience is that you have to keep trying different arrangements until things start to work.
In a previous relationship, I did the dishes and my boyfriend dried them and put them away. That worked because I cared about thing being clean, and he cared about them being tidy. In my marriage, we tried different approaches to the dishes, and what ended up working was that I do them on even day, he does them on odd. This works well for my husband because it's very clear-cut, and he has a whole day to chip away at the task.
So, if you've divided things up and it's not working, you need to re-divide and try again.
We struggled with meal planning and grocery shopping until we divided along skill sets - I make the meal plan and a very specific grocery list. He does the shopping and we unload the bags and put the groceries away together. This is not by chance - the arrangement is the product of months of discussion.
I think you and your husband should cook together - this should be non-negotiable. He comes into the kitchen and acts as your sous chef.
If that goes well, arrange to do more chores together. You tell him - now we clean the living room, vacuum the rug while I tidy, and off you go.
I too have been resentful of having to be the manager, but when I accept the role, things do get done. My husband most often wouldn't fold the basket of clean laundry sitting on the bed on his own, but he will if I ask him. So now when I think, "ugh, I should sweep the kitchen floor," often I'll just give him the broom and have him do it. In either case, I had the thought that it needed to happen, but delegating to him at least spares me the labor.
Of course, this works because my husband cheerfully complies. If he was stroppy about being asked to contribute, I'm sure we'd have some problems.
posted by Squeak Attack at 6:43 AM on August 30, 2011
In a previous relationship, I did the dishes and my boyfriend dried them and put them away. That worked because I cared about thing being clean, and he cared about them being tidy. In my marriage, we tried different approaches to the dishes, and what ended up working was that I do them on even day, he does them on odd. This works well for my husband because it's very clear-cut, and he has a whole day to chip away at the task.
So, if you've divided things up and it's not working, you need to re-divide and try again.
We struggled with meal planning and grocery shopping until we divided along skill sets - I make the meal plan and a very specific grocery list. He does the shopping and we unload the bags and put the groceries away together. This is not by chance - the arrangement is the product of months of discussion.
I think you and your husband should cook together - this should be non-negotiable. He comes into the kitchen and acts as your sous chef.
If that goes well, arrange to do more chores together. You tell him - now we clean the living room, vacuum the rug while I tidy, and off you go.
I too have been resentful of having to be the manager, but when I accept the role, things do get done. My husband most often wouldn't fold the basket of clean laundry sitting on the bed on his own, but he will if I ask him. So now when I think, "ugh, I should sweep the kitchen floor," often I'll just give him the broom and have him do it. In either case, I had the thought that it needed to happen, but delegating to him at least spares me the labor.
Of course, this works because my husband cheerfully complies. If he was stroppy about being asked to contribute, I'm sure we'd have some problems.
posted by Squeak Attack at 6:43 AM on August 30, 2011
Week on, week off. For one week, you do all the chores. The next week he does all the chores. Divide monthly chores between weeks.
posted by hworth at 7:40 AM on August 30, 2011
posted by hworth at 7:40 AM on August 30, 2011
One more point occurred to me after I posted. You said:
Am I hurting him for trying to change his habits? I am very careful to ask him if he agrees with my point of view, and I would hate for him to do something against his will...
You sound a LOT like me, in that you are very concerned about being fair to him, and maybe the idea of him grumpily doing something he doesn't want to do at your insistence makes you uncomfortable.
I am slowly working my way out of this mindset. It occurred to me that, while my husband loves me, he doesn't worry too much about my day-to-day happiness unless I bring something to his attention. Basically, he assumes everything is ok unless I clearly and specifically tell him otherwise.
Whereas I notice his every tiny frown, furrowed brow, heavy sigh and even the slightest bit of a stompy attititude. And when I do notice, I get all uptight and will generally go out of my way to fix it, as well as remembering what I did to cause it so as to be sure not to do that any more. And until recently that included asking him to do chores he didn't want to do.
Part of the reason I want him to do stuff without being asked is because asking makes me uncomfortable, and so I dance around trying to be pleasant and non-bossy, and he doesn't seem to GET that just because I'm not being insistent doesn't mean it's not important.
But I'm slowly learning to expect a certain amount of mild pissiness from him when I ask him to do something he doesn't want to do. It doesn't hurt him... he'll grumpily put the groceries away and then after a few minutes, he's over it. I've just had to learn to let him grump and, most importantly, learn to tolerate the discomfort I feel when he gets grumpy.
In the past I would say "could you please take out the trash" and he'd say "in a few minutes", and then an hour would pass and he still hadn't done it. So then I'd say, "hey, how bout that trash?" and he'd say "I KNOW, I'll get it in a minute!" and then another hour would pass and by that time I'm getting pissed off, and he's still blithely playing his video game. But I still wait an hour or more between every request because I don't want to be a nag because nagging "irritates" him and I feel all ooky when I know he's annoyed at me.
(But interestingly, he's not worried about how much he's annoying me by not taking the trash out... hmmmm... what's wrong with this picture?) Eventually I realized that my trying to be more fair to him than he was to me was actually a big part of the problem, and I decided to stop walking on eggshells.
Now when I say "could you please take out the trash and he says "in a minute" I say, pleasantly but firmly "could you please do it now? I'm trying to make dinner and there is no room in the can to throw stuff." Sure, I sometimes get the heavy sigh, and it makes me uncomfortable. But I'm making myself do it anyway, and it gets less uncomfortable over time now that I've seen that he gets over it in short order with no lasting damage.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 8:07 AM on August 30, 2011 [5 favorites]
Am I hurting him for trying to change his habits? I am very careful to ask him if he agrees with my point of view, and I would hate for him to do something against his will...
You sound a LOT like me, in that you are very concerned about being fair to him, and maybe the idea of him grumpily doing something he doesn't want to do at your insistence makes you uncomfortable.
I am slowly working my way out of this mindset. It occurred to me that, while my husband loves me, he doesn't worry too much about my day-to-day happiness unless I bring something to his attention. Basically, he assumes everything is ok unless I clearly and specifically tell him otherwise.
Whereas I notice his every tiny frown, furrowed brow, heavy sigh and even the slightest bit of a stompy attititude. And when I do notice, I get all uptight and will generally go out of my way to fix it, as well as remembering what I did to cause it so as to be sure not to do that any more. And until recently that included asking him to do chores he didn't want to do.
Part of the reason I want him to do stuff without being asked is because asking makes me uncomfortable, and so I dance around trying to be pleasant and non-bossy, and he doesn't seem to GET that just because I'm not being insistent doesn't mean it's not important.
But I'm slowly learning to expect a certain amount of mild pissiness from him when I ask him to do something he doesn't want to do. It doesn't hurt him... he'll grumpily put the groceries away and then after a few minutes, he's over it. I've just had to learn to let him grump and, most importantly, learn to tolerate the discomfort I feel when he gets grumpy.
In the past I would say "could you please take out the trash" and he'd say "in a few minutes", and then an hour would pass and he still hadn't done it. So then I'd say, "hey, how bout that trash?" and he'd say "I KNOW, I'll get it in a minute!" and then another hour would pass and by that time I'm getting pissed off, and he's still blithely playing his video game. But I still wait an hour or more between every request because I don't want to be a nag because nagging "irritates" him and I feel all ooky when I know he's annoyed at me.
(But interestingly, he's not worried about how much he's annoying me by not taking the trash out... hmmmm... what's wrong with this picture?) Eventually I realized that my trying to be more fair to him than he was to me was actually a big part of the problem, and I decided to stop walking on eggshells.
Now when I say "could you please take out the trash and he says "in a minute" I say, pleasantly but firmly "could you please do it now? I'm trying to make dinner and there is no room in the can to throw stuff." Sure, I sometimes get the heavy sigh, and it makes me uncomfortable. But I'm making myself do it anyway, and it gets less uncomfortable over time now that I've seen that he gets over it in short order with no lasting damage.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 8:07 AM on August 30, 2011 [5 favorites]
Hoooboy. I feel where you are coming from. My fair and lovely wife was raised a Messalina. My chinese mother-in-law, who I might add is a terrific person, is a total neat freak. Unfortunately, she also raised her kids in the classic martyr mode of "I'll do everything, you just go to school and do well." My wife is not incapable of cleaning or organizing but since her mother did EVERYTHING for her, she's never had to really make much of an effort.
Plus, her mother collects things. Actually, not things, but EVERYTHING. Her house is stuffed with things. Neatly and carefully, but stuffed. If there is ever an all-out nuclear war, I can promise you that mankind could easily restart civilization, high-technology and organic food/farming from her home, alone.
I grew up in a proto-typical scandinavian home in which everything was clean and sparse and put away. If you were getting cluttered, you got rid of the clutter. I was always taught to do it right the first time and you ruck your own sack ... no one else does it.
Needless to say, we clash from time to time. We've had a hard time getting used to chores and routines not just because of personalities clashing but because of our 2 kids and our jobs keeping us busy. Plus, I travel alot for work.
So far we've narrowed down our system to what so many above have said ... we take the things we're good at and do them. She loves to vacuum, so she does it. I don't mind dusting and dusting drives me to near-insanity so I do it. (Sadly, not as often as I should.) I do nearly all the cooking and all the shopping. Gas the cars, lawn, basic organization, etc and I clean the bathrooms. Since I throwup at the near sight of diapers and poop, she does the human poop whilst I take the litterbox. So far, it works ok and we haven't killed each other.
However, a routine is a must. One thing that has helped recently is that our oldest just went into kindergarten and we're forced to a routine. The routine helps us maintain some semblance of a system and reminds us of the other chores waiting for us.
Since you husband doesn't really mind (sounds like) doing chores, perhaps a set schedule on the fridge and a penalty-reward system (until he gets into the habit) could help. Something like, "Check off all your chores at the approriate time and YOU get to choose where you eat on the weekend. Don't check off your chores and I choose" Or movie or outing or whatever. The idea isn't punishment but to serve as a reminder that the stuff has to be done.
Anything done consistently for a month will become a habit. When his folks visit and razz him about "woman's work" just show them the chart and remind them that you're both busy and this is the fair division of labor. Then ignore them. Any parents worth their salt will eventually figure out a married couple has be left to their own choices or risk alienation.
As for clashes ... get used to it. You're going to clash. You're going to get angry. He'll feel put upon and you'll both lose your tempers from time to time. But since you sound like you deal with things at a mature level, any issue can be dealt with. Eventually, it'll get better and easier. Regardless, MAKE A IRONCLAD ROUTINE. If you're both slaves to the routine, you stop resenting one another for the work you do/work he doesn't do and you'll start looking to the routine as the rule, not each other screaming for this or that.
posted by damiano99 at 8:14 AM on August 30, 2011
Plus, her mother collects things. Actually, not things, but EVERYTHING. Her house is stuffed with things. Neatly and carefully, but stuffed. If there is ever an all-out nuclear war, I can promise you that mankind could easily restart civilization, high-technology and organic food/farming from her home, alone.
I grew up in a proto-typical scandinavian home in which everything was clean and sparse and put away. If you were getting cluttered, you got rid of the clutter. I was always taught to do it right the first time and you ruck your own sack ... no one else does it.
Needless to say, we clash from time to time. We've had a hard time getting used to chores and routines not just because of personalities clashing but because of our 2 kids and our jobs keeping us busy. Plus, I travel alot for work.
So far we've narrowed down our system to what so many above have said ... we take the things we're good at and do them. She loves to vacuum, so she does it. I don't mind dusting and dusting drives me to near-insanity so I do it. (Sadly, not as often as I should.) I do nearly all the cooking and all the shopping. Gas the cars, lawn, basic organization, etc and I clean the bathrooms. Since I throwup at the near sight of diapers and poop, she does the human poop whilst I take the litterbox. So far, it works ok and we haven't killed each other.
However, a routine is a must. One thing that has helped recently is that our oldest just went into kindergarten and we're forced to a routine. The routine helps us maintain some semblance of a system and reminds us of the other chores waiting for us.
Since you husband doesn't really mind (sounds like) doing chores, perhaps a set schedule on the fridge and a penalty-reward system (until he gets into the habit) could help. Something like, "Check off all your chores at the approriate time and YOU get to choose where you eat on the weekend. Don't check off your chores and I choose" Or movie or outing or whatever. The idea isn't punishment but to serve as a reminder that the stuff has to be done.
Anything done consistently for a month will become a habit. When his folks visit and razz him about "woman's work" just show them the chart and remind them that you're both busy and this is the fair division of labor. Then ignore them. Any parents worth their salt will eventually figure out a married couple has be left to their own choices or risk alienation.
As for clashes ... get used to it. You're going to clash. You're going to get angry. He'll feel put upon and you'll both lose your tempers from time to time. But since you sound like you deal with things at a mature level, any issue can be dealt with. Eventually, it'll get better and easier. Regardless, MAKE A IRONCLAD ROUTINE. If you're both slaves to the routine, you stop resenting one another for the work you do/work he doesn't do and you'll start looking to the routine as the rule, not each other screaming for this or that.
posted by damiano99 at 8:14 AM on August 30, 2011
Oh, and I also don't worry about making him a "real meal" every night any more either. Yeah, I know he's disappointed when he has to eat leftover chili instead of pork chops, mashed potatoes and gravy, but he seems to know better than to get huffy about that, because he realizes I am perfectly willing to stop cooking supper altogether and just eat cereal every night. :)
I do a nicer meal a couple of times a week, but most other nights we have something I dumped in the crockpot, or something quick like egg sandwiches or beans & rice.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 8:25 AM on August 30, 2011
I do a nicer meal a couple of times a week, but most other nights we have something I dumped in the crockpot, or something quick like egg sandwiches or beans & rice.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 8:25 AM on August 30, 2011
And, actually, I wanted to come back and address this:
I don't like him to think he "helps me" with the chores, because there isn't a law that says that chores are MY responsibility. I don't know how to make him see that he doesn't "help" me...they are OUR chores.
If he's not the kind of person who cares if these things are done or not, then the only way he's going to be able to do them is to think of it as helping you. So, for example, you say he takes out the trash when it's overflowing. I'm like that - in my old apartment, when I lived with two other guys, we routinely left the trash until it was impossible to throw anything else out. My girlfriend would like any food trash to go out every day. So I take it out. But I take it out because she wants it taken out - it's something I'm doing for her, not something that I think needs to be done.
I guess what I'm saying is, there are two ways to interpret the way he's approaching these things. You can look at it as, "he thinks he's helping me because he thinks this is my job" or you can look at it as "he thinks he's helping me because he's taking out the trash to make me happy." I obviously don't know what's really in his head, but I suggest that, in a relationship, you should always try to choose the most generous possible interpretation of your partner's behavior.
posted by Ragged Richard at 8:36 AM on August 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't like him to think he "helps me" with the chores, because there isn't a law that says that chores are MY responsibility. I don't know how to make him see that he doesn't "help" me...they are OUR chores.
If he's not the kind of person who cares if these things are done or not, then the only way he's going to be able to do them is to think of it as helping you. So, for example, you say he takes out the trash when it's overflowing. I'm like that - in my old apartment, when I lived with two other guys, we routinely left the trash until it was impossible to throw anything else out. My girlfriend would like any food trash to go out every day. So I take it out. But I take it out because she wants it taken out - it's something I'm doing for her, not something that I think needs to be done.
I guess what I'm saying is, there are two ways to interpret the way he's approaching these things. You can look at it as, "he thinks he's helping me because he thinks this is my job" or you can look at it as "he thinks he's helping me because he's taking out the trash to make me happy." I obviously don't know what's really in his head, but I suggest that, in a relationship, you should always try to choose the most generous possible interpretation of your partner's behavior.
posted by Ragged Richard at 8:36 AM on August 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm going to jump on the you-clean-too-damn-much bandwagon. You say
He likes living in a clean, neat place, but he doesn't seem to make the connection between regular cleaning and the result of a clean home.
but does "a clean, neat place" mean the same thing to you as it does to him? I also like to live in a clean, neat place. To me, this means there is nothing gross. Dirty plates don't get left out, I'm not embarrassed about the state of the toilet if someone comes over, there are no giant cobwebs hanging about. I used to be roommates with a girl who was much cleaner than me (but still not to your levels) and she made Saturday our chore day, where we would clean the bathroom, mop the kitchen floor, vacuum, etc. I resented doing the work not because I want to live in filth, but because there was absolutely no reason a house with no pets needs to be vacuumed every month, let alone every week! So I'm sure she felt that I slacked and she had to do most of the work, but that's because I didn't feel the work was necessary. Talk to Joe and find out what he feels is an acceptably clean home. Maybe he's not helping as much as he should because he thinks your cleaning habits are excessive and not because he's a lazy, sexist pig.
posted by jabes at 9:00 AM on August 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
He likes living in a clean, neat place, but he doesn't seem to make the connection between regular cleaning and the result of a clean home.
but does "a clean, neat place" mean the same thing to you as it does to him? I also like to live in a clean, neat place. To me, this means there is nothing gross. Dirty plates don't get left out, I'm not embarrassed about the state of the toilet if someone comes over, there are no giant cobwebs hanging about. I used to be roommates with a girl who was much cleaner than me (but still not to your levels) and she made Saturday our chore day, where we would clean the bathroom, mop the kitchen floor, vacuum, etc. I resented doing the work not because I want to live in filth, but because there was absolutely no reason a house with no pets needs to be vacuumed every month, let alone every week! So I'm sure she felt that I slacked and she had to do most of the work, but that's because I didn't feel the work was necessary. Talk to Joe and find out what he feels is an acceptably clean home. Maybe he's not helping as much as he should because he thinks your cleaning habits are excessive and not because he's a lazy, sexist pig.
posted by jabes at 9:00 AM on August 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Also, you guys really need to be doing your own laundry if it's bothering you that much, and nthing the you-cook-he-cleans crowd.
posted by jabes at 9:02 AM on August 30, 2011
posted by jabes at 9:02 AM on August 30, 2011
I have an almost-18-year-old disorganized son. I resent him not doing what he needs to do around the house and he resents me nagging him about it. So....
He's now responsible for his own laundry. I've moved the extra bath towels out of the linen closet so he has to hang his up today if he wants a dry one tomorrow.
He leaves things out of place, doesn't tidy up after himself
The teen wolf risks me messing with his stuff if he leaves it strewn about. Shoes/backpack/etc. -- I put them away because he needs them in the morning and I hate morning drama. Music stuff/dirty socks/yugioh cards/cellphone/etc. though? I will pile them up and put them in his room so I don't have to look at them. Maybe you need a designated place to put his un-cleaned-up stuff.
leaves (kind of serious) things for the last minute, expects me to help him with homework
This kid hates school, and the more I push the more he resists. He's a senior by the skin of his teeth, and this year he is 100% responsible for his own schoolwork, getting up and out on time, getting things done, studying. I am available to help if he asks for it in a timely (and kind) manner, but if he's blowing off schoolwork it's not my job to pull all-nighters and drop my social/other plans to get him caught up.
Believe me, even moms and teenagers hate the mom-teenager nag-chore dynamic. You don't want that in your marriage.
posted by headnsouth at 10:05 AM on August 30, 2011
He's now responsible for his own laundry. I've moved the extra bath towels out of the linen closet so he has to hang his up today if he wants a dry one tomorrow.
He leaves things out of place, doesn't tidy up after himself
The teen wolf risks me messing with his stuff if he leaves it strewn about. Shoes/backpack/etc. -- I put them away because he needs them in the morning and I hate morning drama. Music stuff/dirty socks/yugioh cards/cellphone/etc. though? I will pile them up and put them in his room so I don't have to look at them. Maybe you need a designated place to put his un-cleaned-up stuff.
leaves (kind of serious) things for the last minute, expects me to help him with homework
This kid hates school, and the more I push the more he resists. He's a senior by the skin of his teeth, and this year he is 100% responsible for his own schoolwork, getting up and out on time, getting things done, studying. I am available to help if he asks for it in a timely (and kind) manner, but if he's blowing off schoolwork it's not my job to pull all-nighters and drop my social/other plans to get him caught up.
Believe me, even moms and teenagers hate the mom-teenager nag-chore dynamic. You don't want that in your marriage.
posted by headnsouth at 10:05 AM on August 30, 2011
If you do decide to quit reminding him about doing laundry, make sure you have more underwear than he does.
posted by CathyG at 10:19 AM on August 30, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by CathyG at 10:19 AM on August 30, 2011 [3 favorites]
I think a little give on both parts is necessary here. He's a full time student, which means his schedule is more flexible than yours. All of your chores have to be done between 6:00 PM and 10:00 PM. He has all day to do his. In fact, if I were in his shoes, I would offer to do more.
Second, and this is going to go nowhere with him, but I just want to make the point - YOU'RE bringing home the money. In a "traditional" household, the man works, brings home the money and the woman doesn't, so she does the chores. Guess what? In your case, in a backward, 1950's way of looking at the situation, he's the "woman," and he really ought to be making you a sandwich right now.
In solving the problem, I think a list of responsibilities is in order. You do this and he does that. Agree on the timing, though I wouldn't write it down (too much micromanagement will cause fights). In addition, unless one of you is exhausted or extremely busy, the one who doesn't cook does dishes. This is just fair. Especially if you have a dishwasher.
Remember, back at the beginning I said there was a compromise to be had? That's where you come in. I've known some neat freaks, and I've never met anyone who mops a floor even twice a week, let alone every other day. Unless you live on a farm and track mud and animal droppings into the house, this is completely unreasonable.
Do you often criticize the quality of work he does, or re-do his chores? If so, there's some work to do on your (and on his) part in understanding an "acceptable" level of clean. Also, it sounds like you may be living in a house, but you don't mention any yard work. Is it that you don't live in a house, that you do and someone else does the work, that you do the work, or that he does it? If it's the last thing, you may not be giving him credit for work he's doing.
Again, communicate, make a list and agree on what's fair.
posted by cnc at 10:19 AM on August 30, 2011
Second, and this is going to go nowhere with him, but I just want to make the point - YOU'RE bringing home the money. In a "traditional" household, the man works, brings home the money and the woman doesn't, so she does the chores. Guess what? In your case, in a backward, 1950's way of looking at the situation, he's the "woman," and he really ought to be making you a sandwich right now.
In solving the problem, I think a list of responsibilities is in order. You do this and he does that. Agree on the timing, though I wouldn't write it down (too much micromanagement will cause fights). In addition, unless one of you is exhausted or extremely busy, the one who doesn't cook does dishes. This is just fair. Especially if you have a dishwasher.
Remember, back at the beginning I said there was a compromise to be had? That's where you come in. I've known some neat freaks, and I've never met anyone who mops a floor even twice a week, let alone every other day. Unless you live on a farm and track mud and animal droppings into the house, this is completely unreasonable.
Do you often criticize the quality of work he does, or re-do his chores? If so, there's some work to do on your (and on his) part in understanding an "acceptable" level of clean. Also, it sounds like you may be living in a house, but you don't mention any yard work. Is it that you don't live in a house, that you do and someone else does the work, that you do the work, or that he does it? If it's the last thing, you may not be giving him credit for work he's doing.
Again, communicate, make a list and agree on what's fair.
posted by cnc at 10:19 AM on August 30, 2011
I wish you the best of luck, and hope that the two of you find a system that works for you.
Do you have pets? I find that with pets and home cooking, my floors DO need to be swept every day and washed two or three times a week. (No shoes in this house, floor grunge is immediately noticeable.) People's standards vary, and that doesn't seem crazy out of the norm to me.
posted by cyndigo at 11:02 AM on August 30, 2011
Do you have pets? I find that with pets and home cooking, my floors DO need to be swept every day and washed two or three times a week. (No shoes in this house, floor grunge is immediately noticeable.) People's standards vary, and that doesn't seem crazy out of the norm to me.
posted by cyndigo at 11:02 AM on August 30, 2011
Hey, pretty much everything I wanted to say has been said by other people, I just want to add, if you are sweeping and mopping every other day, I hope to gawd you have a swiffer and a swifter wet jet because I swear they are pretty high on the list of best all time inventions.
posted by bq at 11:31 AM on August 30, 2011
posted by bq at 11:31 AM on August 30, 2011
(I haven't read all the comments, so I will probably repeat things already said -- sorry!)
**Am I exaggerating?
Assuming you're really asking 'am I overreacting,' I think the answer is no. I've been in your situation and yeah, it's frustrating to be the person who's expected to own all the housework responsibility, especially if it's just because of your gender. FWIW I had the same situation with social caretaking functions (like, I was expected to remember birthdays and plan parties and stuff), which I found equally mystifying and uninteresting.
**If you are in a couple, how do you keep both house loads fair? Can you give specific examples of what each person does? Can you give your assessment on our distribution?
There is lots of advice in this thread that argues for a clear and detailed division of responsibilities, supported by checklists and chorewars and so forth. I would argue that that doesn't solve the real problem -- it's still you, making the list and enforcing compliance, ugh.
So I would argue two things:
1) Like other people here have said, as soon as you can afford a cleaner, get one. It's how I ultimately solved the problem, and it DID solve the problem. Some people feel like it's a cheat, outsourcing the solution rather than solving the root issue. I don't care: it works.
2) In the meantime, I would recommend you try to find a more-or-less equitable way to split chores that is really easy to remember. For years, I made dinner and my husband cleaned up afterwards: that worked because it was predictable and easy to remember. I was responsible for (most) things inside the house, and he was responsible for (all) things outside of the house. That wasn't super-equitable, but we could remember it, and there were no fuzzy edge cases. The trick is to have things super-obvious so you don't need to have boring, irritating conversations about how if it's the first Wednesday of the month, it's his turn to vacuum.
**Am I hurting him for trying to change his habits? I am very careful to ask him if he agrees with my point of view, and I would hate for him to do something against his will...
No, you're helping him. He's broken because he was raised with broken false assumptions about people: you are helping him fix himself.
**Do you have any other advice for me?
Just that this is a really really difficult problem for lots of people: you are not alone, and you are not exaggerating its importance. There was a great book published in the eighties called The Second Shift that you might enjoy reading -- it doesn't offer advice, but it's a thorough and fascinating exploration of the problem from a feminist perspective. I remember being surprised to find out, for example, that working class families tend to split the housework more equitably than middle class families, although they self-report as being less equitable. Gist was IIRC, that working-class men talk traditionally but behave equitably, while middle-class men do the opposite. Hoschchild also wrote interestingly about how to avoid triggering/reinforcing 'learned helplessness' when it comes to housework, and other useful concepts.
Good luck!
posted by Susan PG at 12:00 PM on August 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
**Am I exaggerating?
Assuming you're really asking 'am I overreacting,' I think the answer is no. I've been in your situation and yeah, it's frustrating to be the person who's expected to own all the housework responsibility, especially if it's just because of your gender. FWIW I had the same situation with social caretaking functions (like, I was expected to remember birthdays and plan parties and stuff), which I found equally mystifying and uninteresting.
**If you are in a couple, how do you keep both house loads fair? Can you give specific examples of what each person does? Can you give your assessment on our distribution?
There is lots of advice in this thread that argues for a clear and detailed division of responsibilities, supported by checklists and chorewars and so forth. I would argue that that doesn't solve the real problem -- it's still you, making the list and enforcing compliance, ugh.
So I would argue two things:
1) Like other people here have said, as soon as you can afford a cleaner, get one. It's how I ultimately solved the problem, and it DID solve the problem. Some people feel like it's a cheat, outsourcing the solution rather than solving the root issue. I don't care: it works.
2) In the meantime, I would recommend you try to find a more-or-less equitable way to split chores that is really easy to remember. For years, I made dinner and my husband cleaned up afterwards: that worked because it was predictable and easy to remember. I was responsible for (most) things inside the house, and he was responsible for (all) things outside of the house. That wasn't super-equitable, but we could remember it, and there were no fuzzy edge cases. The trick is to have things super-obvious so you don't need to have boring, irritating conversations about how if it's the first Wednesday of the month, it's his turn to vacuum.
**Am I hurting him for trying to change his habits? I am very careful to ask him if he agrees with my point of view, and I would hate for him to do something against his will...
No, you're helping him. He's broken because he was raised with broken false assumptions about people: you are helping him fix himself.
**Do you have any other advice for me?
Just that this is a really really difficult problem for lots of people: you are not alone, and you are not exaggerating its importance. There was a great book published in the eighties called The Second Shift that you might enjoy reading -- it doesn't offer advice, but it's a thorough and fascinating exploration of the problem from a feminist perspective. I remember being surprised to find out, for example, that working class families tend to split the housework more equitably than middle class families, although they self-report as being less equitable. Gist was IIRC, that working-class men talk traditionally but behave equitably, while middle-class men do the opposite. Hoschchild also wrote interestingly about how to avoid triggering/reinforcing 'learned helplessness' when it comes to housework, and other useful concepts.
Good luck!
posted by Susan PG at 12:00 PM on August 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
I've had some similar problems with my boyfriend, and one thing that ended up happening was an arrangement where I do all the laundry, but he pays me (we have set amount per load) to do his.
This grew out of the fact that we were supposed to be sharing laundry responsibilities, but in practice, I did far more of it then he did. When it was my turn to do the laundry, I did it promptly; when it was his turn, it waited and waited and I got frustrated, and sometimes broke down and did it myself. This was Not Fair, and made me bitter, although it certainly wasn't purposeful on his part.
So I proposed to him that I do all of the laundry, and he would not have to worry about it at all. But because I am not his indentured servant, he would have to pay me for it. I feel less used, and the gender balance is, well, weird still, but not exploitative. "Woman's work" becomes valuable, quantifiable paid labor.
I don't know if something like this might work in your situation, but that little arrangement has done wonders for us.
posted by bookish at 12:23 PM on August 30, 2011
This grew out of the fact that we were supposed to be sharing laundry responsibilities, but in practice, I did far more of it then he did. When it was my turn to do the laundry, I did it promptly; when it was his turn, it waited and waited and I got frustrated, and sometimes broke down and did it myself. This was Not Fair, and made me bitter, although it certainly wasn't purposeful on his part.
So I proposed to him that I do all of the laundry, and he would not have to worry about it at all. But because I am not his indentured servant, he would have to pay me for it. I feel less used, and the gender balance is, well, weird still, but not exploitative. "Woman's work" becomes valuable, quantifiable paid labor.
I don't know if something like this might work in your situation, but that little arrangement has done wonders for us.
posted by bookish at 12:23 PM on August 30, 2011
The idea of smartphone reminders is laughably ridiculous to me. If he won't listen to his wife who is standing there reminding him to vacuum, he's going to hit "snooze" on the alarm. She's going to have to remind him again anyway. This is not a technological problem. It will not be solved by computers or phones or wall charts.
The only thing I've found that works is scheduling part of a day each week to do the chores together. Make a list and divide it up. He mows the lawn at the same time you're folding laundry. Whoever finishes their part of the list first helps the other person. Once all the tasks are complete, you go do something fun.
Except for cooking and dishes, almost everything can be put off until the weekend. We can clean our (3 bedroom) house (with 4 pets, no kids) reasonably well in 2 hours once a week. Give us four hours and we can have Better Homes & Gardens over for a photoshoot. Which brings me to my next suggestion: invite people over, especially people Joe respects. For some reason the house gets really clean whenever my parents come over.
posted by desjardins at 12:51 PM on August 30, 2011
The only thing I've found that works is scheduling part of a day each week to do the chores together. Make a list and divide it up. He mows the lawn at the same time you're folding laundry. Whoever finishes their part of the list first helps the other person. Once all the tasks are complete, you go do something fun.
Except for cooking and dishes, almost everything can be put off until the weekend. We can clean our (3 bedroom) house (with 4 pets, no kids) reasonably well in 2 hours once a week. Give us four hours and we can have Better Homes & Gardens over for a photoshoot. Which brings me to my next suggestion: invite people over, especially people Joe respects. For some reason the house gets really clean whenever my parents come over.
posted by desjardins at 12:51 PM on August 30, 2011
Oh, one trick my mom uses: my stepdad gets one room to be messy in. Every so often, she bags up all the crap he's left laying around the rest of the house, chucks it into that room and closes the door.
posted by desjardins at 12:53 PM on August 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 12:53 PM on August 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
I work more hours than my wife so we agreed that she should do more of the chores at home. She enjoys cooking so she prepares most of our meals. I do some of the things she hates, like cleaning the kittens' litter box, taking out the trash, bringing up the laundry from downstairs. We do the big tasks like sweeping, mopping, grocery shopping together.Chores are a lot more fun when you have a friend to help you out.
posted by vegetable100% at 5:22 PM on August 30, 2011
posted by vegetable100% at 5:22 PM on August 30, 2011
**Do you have any other advice for me?
An occasional strike when push comes to shove. "I'm not cooking until the toilet is cleaned." You'll soon see whether he likes your cooking enough to clean a toilet for it.
Do your stuff less often. Don't cook more often than every other day, but cook enough to have the same thing (maybe in different combinations) the next day. It takes just as long to make one day's food as it does to make two or three day's food, so start economizing on your time by cooking more at once. And don't sweep and mop more than once a week.
And add Fate to the deal: roll dice (etc.) to decide what has to be done and who has to do it. "Someone is going to clean the toilet tonight. And that someone will be... [roll dice] you!"
posted by pracowity at 11:27 PM on August 30, 2011
An occasional strike when push comes to shove. "I'm not cooking until the toilet is cleaned." You'll soon see whether he likes your cooking enough to clean a toilet for it.
Do your stuff less often. Don't cook more often than every other day, but cook enough to have the same thing (maybe in different combinations) the next day. It takes just as long to make one day's food as it does to make two or three day's food, so start economizing on your time by cooking more at once. And don't sweep and mop more than once a week.
And add Fate to the deal: roll dice (etc.) to decide what has to be done and who has to do it. "Someone is going to clean the toilet tonight. And that someone will be... [roll dice] you!"
posted by pracowity at 11:27 PM on August 30, 2011
The thing about growing up not being expected to do anything is that you end up not really knowing how to do anything. Not the technical details of how to run a load of laundry or how to take out the trash, but the bigger picture of how to organize your life and cleaning so that things get and stay clean without taking over your life.
I learned how to do this from Flylady. I think you should put him on Flylady. If he agrees in theory that he has an independent responsibility to taking care of your home, then this is a way that he can implement it in a clear and structured way that does NOT depend on your being his supervisor or nagger or reminder. Flylady has a 30 day start up program. He can start there and keep going.
posted by Salamandrous at 6:18 AM on August 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
I learned how to do this from Flylady. I think you should put him on Flylady. If he agrees in theory that he has an independent responsibility to taking care of your home, then this is a way that he can implement it in a clear and structured way that does NOT depend on your being his supervisor or nagger or reminder. Flylady has a 30 day start up program. He can start there and keep going.
posted by Salamandrous at 6:18 AM on August 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
Mod note: From the OP:
Well, It has been about 9 months and I can only say thank you for all of your tips. I read this thread several times and even though it was hard to summarize your advice into little practical bits (92 answers!) I think I may have absorbed them subconsciously...!posted by mathowie (staff) at 7:56 PM on May 31, 2012 [6 favorites]
Anyway, I am happy to report that the last 8-9 months have been awesome. I stopped nagging, Joe started doing stuff without prompting (I still feel giddy every time I find him doing his chores on time without reminders and on occasion MINE! I do his when he's having a hard week or he's otherwise unable to do them, too)
I mop twice a week now (I know, it's still a lot) but I have understood the fact that I do it because I want to and not because it's an obligation. I do have a swifter thingy, so it's quite fun. We also leave our shoes out so our floors are spotless.
I can also tell you that Joe seems to take pride on his chores. He pays attention to our home and he loves having it clean. As a side note to all guys out there - there is nothing sexier than a man ironing clothes. 3 times a week no more!
Anyway, I know I love it when anonymous questions have resolutions (especially when they are happy ones) so I thought I would update. In the end what worked was a combination of tolerance, patience and good mood. We tweaked our division of duties several times, I modified my standards, he worked hard and developed an interest in keeping our place clean. As of now he does toilets, laundry (we fold together), vacuuming, trash and dishes, the first 3 whenever he feels it's necessary, I let him be. We are very happy, and you guys were, as usual, so helpful.
This thread is closed to new comments.
on the road to that idea - maybe switch the chores up a little so you both do your own laundry. that way, your clothes aren't impacted while he's figuring out how to pitch in.
another good idea is chore day - a set time each week where you guys do some cleaning. he puts in some laundry and gets started on the bathroom. you put in something tasty for dinner and maybe do some sort of in depth couch cushion cleaning or whatever. this way you aren't "nagging" (because i understand that fear), you guys are taking care of it together.
as to the food thing - you could probably make way less involved meals and he'd be happy. my husband is like that. he loves my super involved meals, but he's totally satisfied with my messy egg sandwiches. so when you're totaling stuff up, realize that the cooking is a chore, but it's also a hobby you choose. don't fact it in to "chore time."
posted by nadawi at 7:44 PM on August 29, 2011 [7 favorites]