Just how bad of an idea is it to be dating a guy recently separated from his wife?
August 10, 2011 8:41 AM Subscribe
How fraught with peril is dating a married man with children who very recently separated from his seemingly unstable wife?
Okay, so, have been dating this guy for a couple of weeks. He is very wonderful in a number of ways. Here are my concerns:
1. His 15-20 year relationship with his wife 'ended' last year when he discovered his wife was having an affair. But he remained living with her until May of this year. Sleeping in the same bed. He has explained all this in terms of a) difficulties in closing on his current house, so he had nowhere to go; b) Sleeping on the sofa was not working for him because it was uncomfortable. His explanation to A rings true to me; the explanation to B feels more hinky. His wife lives right down the street from his new place. The other day she gave him clothing she'd bought for him (he gave it back).
Because our dating is so soon after their separation, I am feeling like I am doing a Bad Thing. Or rather, that dating him because of the above is a Bad Idea.
2) He has two young kids. His wife is, according to his portrayal of her, not very stable. Key example: She is still angry at him for falling for another girl when he and his wife were considering dating. This happened twenty years ago. Apparently she justifies her affair with this twenty year ago thing. The guy believes that if she finds out about me she will be angry and, as per his words 'sabotage' us. Whatever. What I am worried about is that she may 'sabotage' their current 50/50 custody relationship with the kids. He seems to be oblivious to this concern. I am worried about a) the ex going to court (right now they have no custody order) and starting a fight over custody; b) His obliviousness seems -- just off. As in, he's in a bit of denial of it.
Because of the above, I have feelings it will roll this way: She will find out, freak out, do things that complicate his life and/or his relationship with his kids, and then it will be a big fucking mess. I obviously can't control how his wife behaves, but I could say, hey, I really like you, let's date when you have a court order that sets forth terms of custody.
So the questions are:
a) How many red flags do you all see in the above? Am I bad for being with him? Is being with him more likely than not a bad idea, at least at this juncture?
b) Assuming I don't bail and he sticks around, how can I manage my anxieties about the situation?
I am in therapy, am talking about this in therapy.
Okay, so, have been dating this guy for a couple of weeks. He is very wonderful in a number of ways. Here are my concerns:
1. His 15-20 year relationship with his wife 'ended' last year when he discovered his wife was having an affair. But he remained living with her until May of this year. Sleeping in the same bed. He has explained all this in terms of a) difficulties in closing on his current house, so he had nowhere to go; b) Sleeping on the sofa was not working for him because it was uncomfortable. His explanation to A rings true to me; the explanation to B feels more hinky. His wife lives right down the street from his new place. The other day she gave him clothing she'd bought for him (he gave it back).
Because our dating is so soon after their separation, I am feeling like I am doing a Bad Thing. Or rather, that dating him because of the above is a Bad Idea.
2) He has two young kids. His wife is, according to his portrayal of her, not very stable. Key example: She is still angry at him for falling for another girl when he and his wife were considering dating. This happened twenty years ago. Apparently she justifies her affair with this twenty year ago thing. The guy believes that if she finds out about me she will be angry and, as per his words 'sabotage' us. Whatever. What I am worried about is that she may 'sabotage' their current 50/50 custody relationship with the kids. He seems to be oblivious to this concern. I am worried about a) the ex going to court (right now they have no custody order) and starting a fight over custody; b) His obliviousness seems -- just off. As in, he's in a bit of denial of it.
Because of the above, I have feelings it will roll this way: She will find out, freak out, do things that complicate his life and/or his relationship with his kids, and then it will be a big fucking mess. I obviously can't control how his wife behaves, but I could say, hey, I really like you, let's date when you have a court order that sets forth terms of custody.
So the questions are:
a) How many red flags do you all see in the above? Am I bad for being with him? Is being with him more likely than not a bad idea, at least at this juncture?
b) Assuming I don't bail and he sticks around, how can I manage my anxieties about the situation?
I am in therapy, am talking about this in therapy.
I think your prediction is spot-on. As said above, there's already a lot of drama going on. Might be best to put this one on hold for the foreseeable future.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:48 AM on August 10, 2011
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:48 AM on August 10, 2011
a) all of them! Probably not, if your - and his - descriptions of the situation are accurate. Probably yes - how risk-tolerant are you?
b) You're already asking the best source - your therapist.
This:
but I could say, hey, I really like you, let's date when you have a court order that sets forth terms of custody.
sounds like a much less stressful, and less drama-infused, approach.
posted by TruncatedTiller at 8:48 AM on August 10, 2011 [3 favorites]
b) You're already asking the best source - your therapist.
This:
but I could say, hey, I really like you, let's date when you have a court order that sets forth terms of custody.
sounds like a much less stressful, and less drama-infused, approach.
posted by TruncatedTiller at 8:48 AM on August 10, 2011 [3 favorites]
I could say, hey, I really like you, let's date when you have a court order that sets forth terms of custody.
Assuming that everything he has told you is 100% true (and I wouldn't, honestly, based on his peculiar attitude about the whole thing), I'd go with this, except change "when you have a court order" to "when your divorce is finalized." The whole situation is way too hinky. Trust your instincts on this.
posted by Gator at 8:48 AM on August 10, 2011 [8 favorites]
Assuming that everything he has told you is 100% true (and I wouldn't, honestly, based on his peculiar attitude about the whole thing), I'd go with this, except change "when you have a court order" to "when your divorce is finalized." The whole situation is way too hinky. Trust your instincts on this.
posted by Gator at 8:48 AM on August 10, 2011 [8 favorites]
this sounds like it is exhausting already. Are they actually divorced yet? Are there rules and guidelines for managing everyone's behavior and expectations in place? It sounds like he is a little sketchy on the details and like the whole situation is just messy. Which is fine, but you can choose not to add to the messiness right now.
I think it's perfectly reasonable for you to go with "I really like you, let's date once your stuff is more figured out."
posted by peachfuzz at 8:49 AM on August 10, 2011
I think it's perfectly reasonable for you to go with "I really like you, let's date once your stuff is more figured out."
posted by peachfuzz at 8:49 AM on August 10, 2011
He is the one who should be managing his own custody/wife problems. That is not your affair.
What you should be asking yourself right now is: Am I OK with being the rebound relationship, with living through a ton of drama and then probably getting unceremoniously dumped in the not-too-far-future?
posted by hungrytiger at 8:50 AM on August 10, 2011 [12 favorites]
What you should be asking yourself right now is: Am I OK with being the rebound relationship, with living through a ton of drama and then probably getting unceremoniously dumped in the not-too-far-future?
posted by hungrytiger at 8:50 AM on August 10, 2011 [12 favorites]
I'd do the thing others have quoted above. You can still maintain a relationship, just limit it to emails and (maybe) phone calls until this is straightened out. He's being naive and you're right to worry. If you eliminate the physical part of the relationship it may seem and feel less messy.
posted by chowflap at 8:51 AM on August 10, 2011
posted by chowflap at 8:51 AM on August 10, 2011
Yeah, you're definitely not doing anything wrong here, but it's hard to see what could possibly be worth the amount of drama that you seem to be signing yourself up for. If you're still single when things are more formally settled you can always try again then.
posted by Ragged Richard at 8:56 AM on August 10, 2011
posted by Ragged Richard at 8:56 AM on August 10, 2011
It's important to meet the right person for you to be in relationship with, but it's also important to meet them at the right time in their life. This doesn't sound like the right time for him.
If you're going to stay, I'd insist on meeting the wife or that he tell her. If there's going to be trouble, you should find out now as opposed to later.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:59 AM on August 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
If you're going to stay, I'd insist on meeting the wife or that he tell her. If there's going to be trouble, you should find out now as opposed to later.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:59 AM on August 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
Well assuming his story can be taken at face value, it sounds like it's too early for him to date at this point. I think he'd be better off calling you when the divorce has come through.
It sounds like you don't want this mayhem either.
posted by tel3path at 9:00 AM on August 10, 2011
It sounds like you don't want this mayhem either.
posted by tel3path at 9:00 AM on August 10, 2011
Pretty fraught! As others have said, let him go until he's finalized the divorce and settled the messy stuff. That way, it doesn't become your problem, and it's less likely that you're just a rebound or distraction for him.
You're not a bad person. Instead of thinking of this as simply "bad," which can be an unhelpfully vague and judgey description, think of it as "not worth all the hassle."
posted by Metroid Baby at 9:07 AM on August 10, 2011
You're not a bad person. Instead of thinking of this as simply "bad," which can be an unhelpfully vague and judgey description, think of it as "not worth all the hassle."
posted by Metroid Baby at 9:07 AM on August 10, 2011
So, so, so fraught. My mom starting dating someone with [teenage] kids who was at the time very recently separated and then divorced and it was unbelievably drama-filled and nasty for years. He's a great guy, we love him, we're glad they are together HOWEVER there was a ton of drama and pain and awfulness and that was without custody issues.
If you have this drama now after two weeks and there are small children involved you might want to reconsider the relationship--especially because you are already feeling anxious about things when you should be entering the "la, la walk into walls preoccupation" phase. What will bond you guys is drama, not chemistry or mutual affection.
posted by Kimberly at 9:08 AM on August 10, 2011 [6 favorites]
If you have this drama now after two weeks and there are small children involved you might want to reconsider the relationship--especially because you are already feeling anxious about things when you should be entering the "la, la walk into walls preoccupation" phase. What will bond you guys is drama, not chemistry or mutual affection.
posted by Kimberly at 9:08 AM on August 10, 2011 [6 favorites]
It's important to meet the right person for you to be in relationship with, but it's also important to meet them at the right time in their life. This doesn't sound like the right time for him.
And you've only been dating a few weeks? Do yourself a favor and move on. You deserve someone who is ready to be with you physically and emotionally.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:19 AM on August 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
And you've only been dating a few weeks? Do yourself a favor and move on. You deserve someone who is ready to be with you physically and emotionally.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:19 AM on August 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
The other day she gave him clothing she'd bought for him (he gave it back).
This line stood out for me. You don't buy clothing for somebody you think you're divorcing.
You buy clothing for somebody you're either a) in a relationship with, or b) in relationship limbo with and hoping to win back.
My guess is that, if you asked his wife, she would not agree with the timeline your guy has given you. She wouldn't think they ended it last year, and she may not think they ended it in May. She may even think they're still trying to work things out right now and are just giving each other some space. After all, her husband bought a place right down the road.
(Right down the road. From his supposedly unstable wife. Does that sound like it makes sense?)
Have you ever asked him the last time he had sex with her? I'm guessing it's more recently than you think.
Sorry, but the whole thing just feels hinky to me.
posted by Georgina at 9:20 AM on August 10, 2011 [9 favorites]
This line stood out for me. You don't buy clothing for somebody you think you're divorcing.
You buy clothing for somebody you're either a) in a relationship with, or b) in relationship limbo with and hoping to win back.
My guess is that, if you asked his wife, she would not agree with the timeline your guy has given you. She wouldn't think they ended it last year, and she may not think they ended it in May. She may even think they're still trying to work things out right now and are just giving each other some space. After all, her husband bought a place right down the road.
(Right down the road. From his supposedly unstable wife. Does that sound like it makes sense?)
Have you ever asked him the last time he had sex with her? I'm guessing it's more recently than you think.
Sorry, but the whole thing just feels hinky to me.
posted by Georgina at 9:20 AM on August 10, 2011 [9 favorites]
On an objective level, it will take someone coming out of a 15-20 year relationship a good long while before they are really ready for a new relationship. That doesn't mean that you are doing a bad thing. And it doesn't mean that he doesn't enjoy your company. But to be over the previous relationship, and ready to participate in a new one without a bunch of lingering drama washing over everything, it's just too soon.
He may well be a wonderful guy. But timing is everything, or nearly everything, and it sounds like it's just not the right time.
If this were a friend, how would you counsel them?
posted by ambrosia at 9:21 AM on August 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
He may well be a wonderful guy. But timing is everything, or nearly everything, and it sounds like it's just not the right time.
If this were a friend, how would you counsel them?
posted by ambrosia at 9:21 AM on August 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
You aren't a bad person at all, but I think he might be. Really, do the kids need to be dealing with Daddy having a girlfriend mere moments after he moves out, and their mother's reaction to same? You're OK with him not being entirely focused on them right now? If this guy was an old friend of yours, would you be encouraging him to date right now?
Maybe he's just selfish, but that's red flag enough. There are other men in the world you are compatible with, and some of them have their shit together.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:24 AM on August 10, 2011 [3 favorites]
Maybe he's just selfish, but that's red flag enough. There are other men in the world you are compatible with, and some of them have their shit together.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:24 AM on August 10, 2011 [3 favorites]
This situation has more red flags than a parade in China.
And no way in hell is this guy ready for a relationship so soon after the destruction of his long term marriage.
Run. For your own good.
posted by PsuDab93 at 9:27 AM on August 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
And no way in hell is this guy ready for a relationship so soon after the destruction of his long term marriage.
Run. For your own good.
posted by PsuDab93 at 9:27 AM on August 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
There's not much harm in dating a man like this. Dating is lovely. Dating is when you go out and do fun things and talk and hopefully laugh and enjoy the wonder that is potential and exploring possibilities and have a good time together. Dating is FUN! Or, it should be.
However, because becoming emotionally involved and entrenched in a relationship with someone like this is completely different, to answer your questions:
How fraught with peril is dating a married man with children who very recently separated from his seemingly unstable wife?
VERY! Very very. Which is why it's attractive to people who like drama. Do you like drama, or do you like having simple, stable relationships with people who are available and free and clear to have an uncomplicated relationship that is focused on building something with you based on what you two have together, and that can look back upon fondly - rather than having this early time distracted by dismantling his past and figuring out how to blend it with his future?
a) How many red flags do you all see in the above? Am I bad for being with him? Is being with him more likely than not a bad idea, at least at this juncture?
All of them. No, of course not - that's what you should be talking to your therapist about, that you would even say such a thing (reaches over and pats arm). And if "being with" is the code word for "in too deep already", am I right that it's only been a few weeks? That's a lot to know in such a short time. I mean, you want to know before you get in too deep, but knowing so much already... Oy.
My next ask might be "How long do people tend to date these days before it's considered a relationship, and do people really lay it all out on the table this early in?" Why (pulls up rocking chair) back in my day... Seriously. Dates, where you both have a good time seeing movies or eating out or going to cultural events and talking about them and enjoying everything but planning for the future should be okay. And, like, once a week. Can either of you do this? Dates are when you explore whether or not you want to proceed, not when you start forming strategies for dealing with future custody issues. Dates don't have to turn into a relationship, do they? Can't dates just be spending time with someone without having more than a lovely evening? Or....did they evolve already?
b) Assuming I don't bail and he sticks around, how can I manage my anxieties about the situation?
There will be future questions from you here where a large percentage of answers go straight to DTMFA; others will look at your history of questions and determine that this was doomed from the start and may suggest ways in which you can either gracefully extract yourself or proceed carefully; and others will suggest therapy, self-help books and offer sound advice like much of what's above that you may or may not embrace.
Look, I'm a woman who's been happily married to my husband for almost eight years and "with him" for about thirteen. What I know is that prior to meeting him, after my first devastating drama-filled divorce, I decided what I wanted in a partner, and when he fit the bill (even if he was like, the first one after though I had two other suitors during that short period) then, and only then, we proceeded. There were lots of dates. And, when it was time to shit or get off the pot, I did not try to change someone, he was fine just the way he was. Not perfect, but there were no glaring, waving, flags spelling out "run away!". That's what I know now. You don't mess up your life by trying to make the wrong person right, and that can mean him, personally - or the situation.
So, is this guy already what you need and want in a relationship, and I mean pretty much the full package? And so yeah: Caveat emptor.
posted by peagood at 9:27 AM on August 10, 2011 [4 favorites]
However, because becoming emotionally involved and entrenched in a relationship with someone like this is completely different, to answer your questions:
How fraught with peril is dating a married man with children who very recently separated from his seemingly unstable wife?
VERY! Very very. Which is why it's attractive to people who like drama. Do you like drama, or do you like having simple, stable relationships with people who are available and free and clear to have an uncomplicated relationship that is focused on building something with you based on what you two have together, and that can look back upon fondly - rather than having this early time distracted by dismantling his past and figuring out how to blend it with his future?
a) How many red flags do you all see in the above? Am I bad for being with him? Is being with him more likely than not a bad idea, at least at this juncture?
All of them. No, of course not - that's what you should be talking to your therapist about, that you would even say such a thing (reaches over and pats arm). And if "being with" is the code word for "in too deep already", am I right that it's only been a few weeks? That's a lot to know in such a short time. I mean, you want to know before you get in too deep, but knowing so much already... Oy.
My next ask might be "How long do people tend to date these days before it's considered a relationship, and do people really lay it all out on the table this early in?" Why (pulls up rocking chair) back in my day... Seriously. Dates, where you both have a good time seeing movies or eating out or going to cultural events and talking about them and enjoying everything but planning for the future should be okay. And, like, once a week. Can either of you do this? Dates are when you explore whether or not you want to proceed, not when you start forming strategies for dealing with future custody issues. Dates don't have to turn into a relationship, do they? Can't dates just be spending time with someone without having more than a lovely evening? Or....did they evolve already?
b) Assuming I don't bail and he sticks around, how can I manage my anxieties about the situation?
There will be future questions from you here where a large percentage of answers go straight to DTMFA; others will look at your history of questions and determine that this was doomed from the start and may suggest ways in which you can either gracefully extract yourself or proceed carefully; and others will suggest therapy, self-help books and offer sound advice like much of what's above that you may or may not embrace.
Look, I'm a woman who's been happily married to my husband for almost eight years and "with him" for about thirteen. What I know is that prior to meeting him, after my first devastating drama-filled divorce, I decided what I wanted in a partner, and when he fit the bill (even if he was like, the first one after though I had two other suitors during that short period) then, and only then, we proceeded. There were lots of dates. And, when it was time to shit or get off the pot, I did not try to change someone, he was fine just the way he was. Not perfect, but there were no glaring, waving, flags spelling out "run away!". That's what I know now. You don't mess up your life by trying to make the wrong person right, and that can mean him, personally - or the situation.
So, is this guy already what you need and want in a relationship, and I mean pretty much the full package? And so yeah: Caveat emptor.
posted by peagood at 9:27 AM on August 10, 2011 [4 favorites]
This situation is setting off all my lying lying liar sensors.
But he remained living with her until May of this year. Sleeping in the same bed. He has explained all this in terms of a) difficulties in closing on his current house, so he had nowhere to go; b) Sleeping on the sofa was not working for him because it was uncomfortable.
This strikes me as glaringly obvious bullshit. Maybe it sounds believable to other people, but if I were dating someone for 2 weeks and they told me something that seemed like such a blatant lie, I wouldn't stick around to find out if it was true or not.
His wife is, according to his portrayal of her, not very stable.
This is one of my biggest red flags. Every. last. time. a guy has painted a negative picture to me of a woman he's been involved with and hasn't done everything in his power to get as far and as fast away from her as possible it has turned out to be super skewed, or a way to make himself out to be blameless in the situation. And then these guys end up telling the next women how "unstable" YOU are or whatever. Once, I was dating a guy who was cheating on me with a girl he told me was a "friend" (and told her the same about me). When we caught him, he told her that I had been confused and thought he wanted to date me when he didn't. And he told me that she was a stalker who was chasing him and he couldn't get away from her. That's just one example.
posted by Ashley801 at 9:40 AM on August 10, 2011 [18 favorites]
But he remained living with her until May of this year. Sleeping in the same bed. He has explained all this in terms of a) difficulties in closing on his current house, so he had nowhere to go; b) Sleeping on the sofa was not working for him because it was uncomfortable.
This strikes me as glaringly obvious bullshit. Maybe it sounds believable to other people, but if I were dating someone for 2 weeks and they told me something that seemed like such a blatant lie, I wouldn't stick around to find out if it was true or not.
His wife is, according to his portrayal of her, not very stable.
This is one of my biggest red flags. Every. last. time. a guy has painted a negative picture to me of a woman he's been involved with and hasn't done everything in his power to get as far and as fast away from her as possible it has turned out to be super skewed, or a way to make himself out to be blameless in the situation. And then these guys end up telling the next women how "unstable" YOU are or whatever. Once, I was dating a guy who was cheating on me with a girl he told me was a "friend" (and told her the same about me). When we caught him, he told her that I had been confused and thought he wanted to date me when he didn't. And he told me that she was a stalker who was chasing him and he couldn't get away from her. That's just one example.
posted by Ashley801 at 9:40 AM on August 10, 2011 [18 favorites]
If you're really interested, now is the time to stake your territory, but not date. I find it just a little unlikely that a guy still this entangled with his ex is actually in an emotional state that he would make a good longterm prospect. My recommendation? Show your interest by being offering companionship, but leave "dating," and any special activities that implies, off the table for a little while.
posted by Ys at 9:48 AM on August 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Ys at 9:48 AM on August 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
His wife is, according to his portrayal of her, not very stable ... The guy believes that if she finds out about me she will be angry and, as per his words 'sabotage' us ... What I am worried about is that she may 'sabotage' their current 50/50 custody relationship with the kids. He seems to be oblivious to this concern.
This is another flaring "BULLSHIT!" signal to me. She's sooo unstable but the *only* thing he's worried about her fucking with his fledgling dating life? And of course, that's why she can't know about you? I don't buy it.
posted by Ashley801 at 10:03 AM on August 10, 2011 [3 favorites]
This is another flaring "BULLSHIT!" signal to me. She's sooo unstable but the *only* thing he's worried about her fucking with his fledgling dating life? And of course, that's why she can't know about you? I don't buy it.
posted by Ashley801 at 10:03 AM on August 10, 2011 [3 favorites]
I wonder if his wife thinks his "new place" is a rental property they bought to supplement the family income.
I wonder if the "affair" was him spotting his wife exchanging glances with the pool boy. Or maybe he got the word order and pronouns mixed up and what he meant to say was, his wife discovered he was having an affair.
Maybe he gave her back the clothes so she could take them to the dry cleaners.
This is the level of lying I'm estimating based on what you've written here, anyway.
But even if it's all true - like I said - he doesn't sound too appetizing.
posted by tel3path at 10:03 AM on August 10, 2011 [6 favorites]
I wonder if the "affair" was him spotting his wife exchanging glances with the pool boy. Or maybe he got the word order and pronouns mixed up and what he meant to say was, his wife discovered he was having an affair.
Maybe he gave her back the clothes so she could take them to the dry cleaners.
This is the level of lying I'm estimating based on what you've written here, anyway.
But even if it's all true - like I said - he doesn't sound too appetizing.
posted by tel3path at 10:03 AM on August 10, 2011 [6 favorites]
His wife is, according to his portrayal of her, not very stable.
Possible scenarios:
(1) Wife is not stable. Your putative boyfriend has spent 15-20 years married to and reproducing with somebody who is not stable, and now he has bailed on this and his children are often left alone to deal with somebody who is not stable. He makes very poor life choices, and is a poor father.
(2) Wife is stable. He poormouths exes, revealing him to be a person who has little respect for people he sleeps with. You will eventually be put down, too.
About the clothes-buying thing... Ah, hmm. I buy clothes for my ex sometimes. I don't want to date him again. But he's my friend and my daughter's father and I like him to be warm, comfortable, respectable. Would I recommend dating him? Admittedly probably not until I have stopped buying clothes for him, because I do that in part because right now he is over here every weekend and during the week when he's able, and his priority is so much his kid, and so much still focused on this home, that I think any girlfriend would be so low a priority to him that it wouldn't go particularly well. My take on the clothing-buying is that he is still part of that family. Like he was when he was living there and only playing at being divorced.
I also feel it was a bit churlish to give the clothing back; his priority right now, given the children, should be keeping his relationship with his ex as amicable as possible... Which also means not putting down his children's mother. See again re. poor father. It seems weird that he is finding the time and emotional energy to date when he has just been torn apart from his small children; that's a red flag that the dude might be a little messed up.
posted by kmennie at 10:28 AM on August 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
Possible scenarios:
(1) Wife is not stable. Your putative boyfriend has spent 15-20 years married to and reproducing with somebody who is not stable, and now he has bailed on this and his children are often left alone to deal with somebody who is not stable. He makes very poor life choices, and is a poor father.
(2) Wife is stable. He poormouths exes, revealing him to be a person who has little respect for people he sleeps with. You will eventually be put down, too.
About the clothes-buying thing... Ah, hmm. I buy clothes for my ex sometimes. I don't want to date him again. But he's my friend and my daughter's father and I like him to be warm, comfortable, respectable. Would I recommend dating him? Admittedly probably not until I have stopped buying clothes for him, because I do that in part because right now he is over here every weekend and during the week when he's able, and his priority is so much his kid, and so much still focused on this home, that I think any girlfriend would be so low a priority to him that it wouldn't go particularly well. My take on the clothing-buying is that he is still part of that family. Like he was when he was living there and only playing at being divorced.
I also feel it was a bit churlish to give the clothing back; his priority right now, given the children, should be keeping his relationship with his ex as amicable as possible... Which also means not putting down his children's mother. See again re. poor father. It seems weird that he is finding the time and emotional energy to date when he has just been torn apart from his small children; that's a red flag that the dude might be a little messed up.
posted by kmennie at 10:28 AM on August 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
I know someone who married a dude like this, down to the crazy ex and the kids. She is very unhappy now and the marriage is on the rocks and the ex-wife has never stopped for a second making their lives hell.
Don't get too attached to this one. He's gonna be nothing but drama to anyone he partners with from now on, unfortunately.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:26 AM on August 10, 2011
Don't get too attached to this one. He's gonna be nothing but drama to anyone he partners with from now on, unfortunately.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:26 AM on August 10, 2011
I lost track of all the red flags after the first paragraph. To put it kindly, it doesn't speak well of someone's maturity or problem-solving abilities when they describe their wife of 20 years and mother of their two children as unstable. While it may be true, he has a responsibility to find a way to get along with his wife so they can co-parent their children successfully. (Note: Wife. Not ex-wife.)
Every guy I've ever dated who had a 'crazy-ex' ended up tarring me with the same brush later when I expected perfectly reasonable behavior from him. Interestingly, the crazier the ex was, the worse his behavior turned out to be.
You're not bad for giving this guy a chance, but dating him right now is the definition of Bad Idea. Find someone who is actually available for a relationship without all this baggage. Future you will thank you.
posted by Space Kitty at 11:38 AM on August 10, 2011 [3 favorites]
Every guy I've ever dated who had a 'crazy-ex' ended up tarring me with the same brush later when I expected perfectly reasonable behavior from him. Interestingly, the crazier the ex was, the worse his behavior turned out to be.
You're not bad for giving this guy a chance, but dating him right now is the definition of Bad Idea. Find someone who is actually available for a relationship without all this baggage. Future you will thank you.
posted by Space Kitty at 11:38 AM on August 10, 2011 [3 favorites]
Just how bad of an idea is it to be dating a guy recently separated from his wife?
Very, I would say. For your own sake, don't be his rebound.
posted by brand-gnu at 11:45 AM on August 10, 2011
Very, I would say. For your own sake, don't be his rebound.
posted by brand-gnu at 11:45 AM on August 10, 2011
Rule of thumb: don't date someone who is still married. Full stop.
posted by aught at 12:08 PM on August 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by aught at 12:08 PM on August 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
Assuming that everything he has told you is 100% true (and I wouldn't, honestly, based on his peculiar attitude about the whole thing),
This. The situation seems awfully fishy. For all you know, his wife isn't unstable at all and they won't ever get a divorce, he just says that to new girlfriends.
He could be telling the truth or he could be lying, but you really don't have any way to know at this point. I would tell him to call you when his divorce is finalized, more for your own protection than his family's (which isn't your responsibility or even something you have a right to deeply involve yourself in at this stage).
posted by wansac at 1:24 PM on August 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
This. The situation seems awfully fishy. For all you know, his wife isn't unstable at all and they won't ever get a divorce, he just says that to new girlfriends.
He could be telling the truth or he could be lying, but you really don't have any way to know at this point. I would tell him to call you when his divorce is finalized, more for your own protection than his family's (which isn't your responsibility or even something you have a right to deeply involve yourself in at this stage).
posted by wansac at 1:24 PM on August 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
Always be at least a little suspicious when the guy says his ex/wife is unstable. I'm not saying she isn't, just be skeptical. Add to that they were still sleeping in the same bed and now he lives up the road from her. And they were married for a long time - you are more than likely the rebound.
I can't see how you're going to get much out of this other than hurt.
posted by mleigh at 2:27 PM on August 10, 2011
I can't see how you're going to get much out of this other than hurt.
posted by mleigh at 2:27 PM on August 10, 2011
I was in this situation, pretty closely. No lectures, just my story here. I hope it helps.
My wife and I had separated and intended to divorce. Yet we couldn't afford to split financially yet. So, I moved into my shop (a big, nice space, even mostly clean), and we continued living together while we worked out the details of the divorce.
I never described her as unstable. Selfish, yes (from my perspective), but unstable, no. If I truly thought she was unstable, I'd go for full custody, immediately, and I'd pursue it to the end. This part of your situation is the big red flag for me. Simply put, A good dad does not leave his kids in the care of someone he thinks is unstable. I couldn't be with anyone who had kids and didn't have this basic understanding of his/her responsibilities.
I did date, via OKCupid. Sometimes my dates would spend the night in the shop with me. Very awkward. Gratifying, but awkward.
I broke up with one GF because she asked "Ahh, if I proposed to you right now, would you be legally able to run to Las Vegas and get married tomorrow?" The answer was "no", because I wasn't actually divorced. I didn't (and don't) feel that it was her business, and I hadn't explicitly discussed it with her as there was no chance I was going to marry her anyway. She was a rebound girlfriend, someone to have fun with, sex with, and hang out, and I thought I'd made that clear.
After her, I did get divorced a few months later, and made my ex-wife move out. Things are much better for everyone.
Advice from my experience:
- If they still live together, then things are going to be awkward. No way around that. There may be no chance they will get back together, but it is messy.
- If you are sleeping with him, and you aren't a "sharer", he should not be sleeping (even with no sex) with his ex. Messy. "It is uncomfortable" is a terrible excuse.
- Pay attention to the actual words he uses. In my case, when pressed about "where is our relationship going?", I said things like "good things are good, I enjoy your company." I never committed, because I couldn't and honestly didn't want to. I was actually a bit shocked at how mad the GF was before she broke up with me, as I'd never promised her a single thing, nor would I have.
- There is *nothing wrong* with being a companion to someone in a divorce. You aren't morally obligated to his wife, despite how many people might disagree. My morals may (probably do) differ from the norm here, and honestly I feel great about them. I see absolutely nothing morally wrong in someone "divorced in his heart" from having companionship and intimacy with a willing partner. Now, he may just be getting even with his wife, and you are his means to do so. That's the crux of what you need to decide.
posted by Invoke at 3:19 PM on August 10, 2011
My wife and I had separated and intended to divorce. Yet we couldn't afford to split financially yet. So, I moved into my shop (a big, nice space, even mostly clean), and we continued living together while we worked out the details of the divorce.
I never described her as unstable. Selfish, yes (from my perspective), but unstable, no. If I truly thought she was unstable, I'd go for full custody, immediately, and I'd pursue it to the end. This part of your situation is the big red flag for me. Simply put, A good dad does not leave his kids in the care of someone he thinks is unstable. I couldn't be with anyone who had kids and didn't have this basic understanding of his/her responsibilities.
I did date, via OKCupid. Sometimes my dates would spend the night in the shop with me. Very awkward. Gratifying, but awkward.
I broke up with one GF because she asked "Ahh, if I proposed to you right now, would you be legally able to run to Las Vegas and get married tomorrow?" The answer was "no", because I wasn't actually divorced. I didn't (and don't) feel that it was her business, and I hadn't explicitly discussed it with her as there was no chance I was going to marry her anyway. She was a rebound girlfriend, someone to have fun with, sex with, and hang out, and I thought I'd made that clear.
After her, I did get divorced a few months later, and made my ex-wife move out. Things are much better for everyone.
Advice from my experience:
- If they still live together, then things are going to be awkward. No way around that. There may be no chance they will get back together, but it is messy.
- If you are sleeping with him, and you aren't a "sharer", he should not be sleeping (even with no sex) with his ex. Messy. "It is uncomfortable" is a terrible excuse.
- Pay attention to the actual words he uses. In my case, when pressed about "where is our relationship going?", I said things like "good things are good, I enjoy your company." I never committed, because I couldn't and honestly didn't want to. I was actually a bit shocked at how mad the GF was before she broke up with me, as I'd never promised her a single thing, nor would I have.
- There is *nothing wrong* with being a companion to someone in a divorce. You aren't morally obligated to his wife, despite how many people might disagree. My morals may (probably do) differ from the norm here, and honestly I feel great about them. I see absolutely nothing morally wrong in someone "divorced in his heart" from having companionship and intimacy with a willing partner. Now, he may just be getting even with his wife, and you are his means to do so. That's the crux of what you need to decide.
posted by Invoke at 3:19 PM on August 10, 2011
Fraught.
So fraught, I expect that's part of the attraction. Drama = It must be love.
But you wouldn't have asked, had you not known that already.
How about ask your therapist, too? And take some time with the answers.
posted by zo219 at 4:40 PM on August 10, 2011
So fraught, I expect that's part of the attraction. Drama = It must be love.
But you wouldn't have asked, had you not known that already.
How about ask your therapist, too? And take some time with the answers.
posted by zo219 at 4:40 PM on August 10, 2011
It's rather appalling how mean-spirited most of the replies are toward the guy. He's had the rug pulled out from under him and, surprise!, it's hard to deal with. So the most useful answer is, fuck him... kick to the curb? I sincerely hope none of you get caught in his predicament.
How about helping the guy? Sure, it might not end up being the one-true-love fantasy some folks delude themselves into desiring. But he might be a helluva nice guy and helping him move forward would be a fantastically great thing to do.
posted by wkearney99 at 5:14 PM on August 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
How about helping the guy? Sure, it might not end up being the one-true-love fantasy some folks delude themselves into desiring. But he might be a helluva nice guy and helping him move forward would be a fantastically great thing to do.
posted by wkearney99 at 5:14 PM on August 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
How about helping the guy? ... he might be a helluva nice guy and helping him move forward would be a fantastically great thing to do.
I'm all for helping people, but not at the expense of your own well-being for someone you don't even know. There are times when it's great to put yourself on the line to help people and times when it's a really bad idea.
Great: You friend breaks down on the highway at 3 am, 2 hours away and you go pick them up.
Great: Your mom is dangling from a cliff and you haul her back up
Bad idea: A stranger asks you to get in his van and help him find his puppy and you agree.
Bad idea: A married man has told you weird things that don't ring true and set off your BS detectors, has been married 20 years and is highly enmeshed with his "unstable" wife and you take on his problems as your own.
posted by Ashley801 at 7:28 PM on August 10, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm all for helping people, but not at the expense of your own well-being for someone you don't even know. There are times when it's great to put yourself on the line to help people and times when it's a really bad idea.
Great: You friend breaks down on the highway at 3 am, 2 hours away and you go pick them up.
Great: Your mom is dangling from a cliff and you haul her back up
Bad idea: A stranger asks you to get in his van and help him find his puppy and you agree.
Bad idea: A married man has told you weird things that don't ring true and set off your BS detectors, has been married 20 years and is highly enmeshed with his "unstable" wife and you take on his problems as your own.
posted by Ashley801 at 7:28 PM on August 10, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm going to play devils advocate here and say:
a) Red flags? "it depends." I have seen a very, very similar fact pattern work out. So, it's just not true that it definitely won't work.
a.i.) Bad person? Very interesting question. Seems worth exploring why you feel that way.
b) Anxieties? it's possible that this is closer to the crux here.
I don't think there are as many red flags as everyone else does:
- May is recent, so he can't be over it. But if he is resolved that it is O-V-E-R, and if you're really into him, it doesn't mean that something can't start to take root. (As I say, I saw this happen recently.)
- He said something that makes his wife sound unstable. I don't think it's a big deal, especially given that he repeated the reason she gave for having an affair, a reason that must seem totally bizarre to him. This is not (a) just some totally random badmouthing, and also not (b) necessarily indicative of insanity on her part. Over 15 years of marriage, sometimes people develop some weird resentments.
- Living down the street. Not that uncommon. Happened in the scenario I saw play out. And wasn't this part of the divorce in the movie, The Squid and The Whale? Convenience to his young kids, familiar commute, nearby friends, a man of habit...
- The couch thing. I do believe that an uncomfortable couch (and perhaps "mommy, why is daddy sleeping on the couch?") could keep people sleeping in the same bed when they are ready to have their own space. I mean, to honestly audit the decision, I'd have to know couch size, couch location, bed size, amount of available bedding... but I'd rather just believe the guy.
- I do have questions about his claim that they were "over" while still living together. How does he define that, and how did he get there? It takes time to unwind a relationship logistically and emotionally. He's claiming that only the logistics were holding him there, but were they not also still unwinding emotionally? Had it finished already? Or were they still "deciding" or "breaking up" or "ending things" when he portrayed them as "ended?" It's difficult to portray shades of gray as a binary point on a timeline, so maybe he was oversimplifying "90% sure we wouldn't be able to patch things up" as "they were basically over." I just think you'd learn a lot by understanding how he could say that. But again, I don't know how much you gain by auditing his past. I think you'd gain more by asking for what you need in the present.
Now, let's talk about this custody thing. You have an entire theory about how things will go wrong. I'm not convinced. Between you and him, I'd probably defer to him on the question of how his ex-wife will behave. Just because she would get angry and try to hurt him does not mean she'd spoil the children's relationship with their father just to get to him. I am glad that you named some anxiety there.
And you believe that his refusal to notice this issue is denial? That sounds disrespectful to me. Maybe you have additional facts here, but as it's presented it sounds like you took facts from his life, constructed a theory, then judged him for not having created that theory himself.
I do think this is not necessarily doomed, but what I hear in your post is a deep sense of misgiving and an edging toward drama, and your enmeshment in it. All that could be explained if you have an accurate instinct that he's lying, but this post misses enough details that I think that all of this might be more about you than about him.
I do think that if you do want to continue this, you would be well-served by backing way off, finding a way to stay safe, letting his problems remain his problems, and giving him the space to deal with them. That is -- if it's worth it to you.
(Sorry for the million typos in this comment.)
posted by salvia at 9:36 PM on August 10, 2011
a) Red flags? "it depends." I have seen a very, very similar fact pattern work out. So, it's just not true that it definitely won't work.
a.i.) Bad person? Very interesting question. Seems worth exploring why you feel that way.
b) Anxieties? it's possible that this is closer to the crux here.
I don't think there are as many red flags as everyone else does:
- May is recent, so he can't be over it. But if he is resolved that it is O-V-E-R, and if you're really into him, it doesn't mean that something can't start to take root. (As I say, I saw this happen recently.)
- He said something that makes his wife sound unstable. I don't think it's a big deal, especially given that he repeated the reason she gave for having an affair, a reason that must seem totally bizarre to him. This is not (a) just some totally random badmouthing, and also not (b) necessarily indicative of insanity on her part. Over 15 years of marriage, sometimes people develop some weird resentments.
- Living down the street. Not that uncommon. Happened in the scenario I saw play out. And wasn't this part of the divorce in the movie, The Squid and The Whale? Convenience to his young kids, familiar commute, nearby friends, a man of habit...
- The couch thing. I do believe that an uncomfortable couch (and perhaps "mommy, why is daddy sleeping on the couch?") could keep people sleeping in the same bed when they are ready to have their own space. I mean, to honestly audit the decision, I'd have to know couch size, couch location, bed size, amount of available bedding... but I'd rather just believe the guy.
- I do have questions about his claim that they were "over" while still living together. How does he define that, and how did he get there? It takes time to unwind a relationship logistically and emotionally. He's claiming that only the logistics were holding him there, but were they not also still unwinding emotionally? Had it finished already? Or were they still "deciding" or "breaking up" or "ending things" when he portrayed them as "ended?" It's difficult to portray shades of gray as a binary point on a timeline, so maybe he was oversimplifying "90% sure we wouldn't be able to patch things up" as "they were basically over." I just think you'd learn a lot by understanding how he could say that. But again, I don't know how much you gain by auditing his past. I think you'd gain more by asking for what you need in the present.
Now, let's talk about this custody thing. You have an entire theory about how things will go wrong. I'm not convinced. Between you and him, I'd probably defer to him on the question of how his ex-wife will behave. Just because she would get angry and try to hurt him does not mean she'd spoil the children's relationship with their father just to get to him. I am glad that you named some anxiety there.
And you believe that his refusal to notice this issue is denial? That sounds disrespectful to me. Maybe you have additional facts here, but as it's presented it sounds like you took facts from his life, constructed a theory, then judged him for not having created that theory himself.
I do think this is not necessarily doomed, but what I hear in your post is a deep sense of misgiving and an edging toward drama, and your enmeshment in it. All that could be explained if you have an accurate instinct that he's lying, but this post misses enough details that I think that all of this might be more about you than about him.
I do think that if you do want to continue this, you would be well-served by backing way off, finding a way to stay safe, letting his problems remain his problems, and giving him the space to deal with them. That is -- if it's worth it to you.
(Sorry for the million typos in this comment.)
posted by salvia at 9:36 PM on August 10, 2011
There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. -- DONNIE RUMSFELD
known knowns: You are dating a married guy... and his wife is not supposed to find out about it.
known unknowns: Is she really "unstable"? Are they really separated and mutually intending to divorce? Is the relationship actually dead? Is his odd behavior just naivete, or is he misrepresenting things in some way?
unknown unknowns: Everything else.
...............................................
The "known knowns" as I've presented them sound really bad, and they may not be – but still, this is the basis of the matter, and I'd be very leery about someone with excuses about why the relationship needs to be a secret.
+10 Suspicion Points for the "unstable" ex(ish). Because well, if the ex finds out about you and freaks out, it's handy if she's "unstable," as opposed to maybe thinking that they were working on things or something. Or maybe she's unstable in the way many guys define any unhappy or angry woman as "unstable."
Have you met any of his friends, other family, co-workers, or anybody else in his life? Mailman, dog, guy at the bait shop, mechanic, hairdresser? If not, +30 Suspicion Points.
Yes, I sound like Paranoid Sue, but it's all comes from the first premise: the known knowns. I'd step away, and let him resolve his stuff. If he can come forward in a transparent, straighforward way at a later time, great! That will be a good time to date him!
posted by taz at 3:53 AM on August 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
known knowns: You are dating a married guy... and his wife is not supposed to find out about it.
known unknowns: Is she really "unstable"? Are they really separated and mutually intending to divorce? Is the relationship actually dead? Is his odd behavior just naivete, or is he misrepresenting things in some way?
unknown unknowns: Everything else.
...............................................
The "known knowns" as I've presented them sound really bad, and they may not be – but still, this is the basis of the matter, and I'd be very leery about someone with excuses about why the relationship needs to be a secret.
+10 Suspicion Points for the "unstable" ex(ish). Because well, if the ex finds out about you and freaks out, it's handy if she's "unstable," as opposed to maybe thinking that they were working on things or something. Or maybe she's unstable in the way many guys define any unhappy or angry woman as "unstable."
Have you met any of his friends, other family, co-workers, or anybody else in his life? Mailman, dog, guy at the bait shop, mechanic, hairdresser? If not, +30 Suspicion Points.
Yes, I sound like Paranoid Sue, but it's all comes from the first premise: the known knowns. I'd step away, and let him resolve his stuff. If he can come forward in a transparent, straighforward way at a later time, great! That will be a good time to date him!
posted by taz at 3:53 AM on August 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
What taz said.
The version of events he's giving you is not inherently unbelievable. Others can claim to have played out similar scenarios in good faith. It's not like he told you he was an alien from the planet Zorg who was on an undercover xenopological research project which his Terran spousal unit must never find out about lest he break the Prime Directive.
But his explanation is so detailed you risk losing sight of the context, which is: You are dating a married guy... and his wife is not supposed to find out about it.
It's better to refuse certain situations as a matter of policy, even when there's a nonzero chance they're legit.
posted by tel3path at 6:13 AM on August 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
The version of events he's giving you is not inherently unbelievable. Others can claim to have played out similar scenarios in good faith. It's not like he told you he was an alien from the planet Zorg who was on an undercover xenopological research project which his Terran spousal unit must never find out about lest he break the Prime Directive.
But his explanation is so detailed you risk losing sight of the context, which is: You are dating a married guy... and his wife is not supposed to find out about it.
It's better to refuse certain situations as a matter of policy, even when there's a nonzero chance they're legit.
posted by tel3path at 6:13 AM on August 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
How about helping the guy?
Um, no.
As someone who has been through a divorce with children and did get the rug pulled from under him, I would not advocate that the OP hang around for the sake of the guy. There's a word for that sort of behavior.
The divorced guy needs to take care of himself and his kids and frankly, getting into a relationship will not help him heal from his marriage. It just won't and it's irresponsible, naive, and foolish to think otherwise.
The OP would be doing herself and this guy a favor by cutting this interaction off at the knees.
Oh, and my recommendation doesn't even take into account the blatant holes in the guy's story.
posted by PsuDab93 at 7:39 AM on August 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
Um, no.
As someone who has been through a divorce with children and did get the rug pulled from under him, I would not advocate that the OP hang around for the sake of the guy. There's a word for that sort of behavior.
The divorced guy needs to take care of himself and his kids and frankly, getting into a relationship will not help him heal from his marriage. It just won't and it's irresponsible, naive, and foolish to think otherwise.
The OP would be doing herself and this guy a favor by cutting this interaction off at the knees.
Oh, and my recommendation doesn't even take into account the blatant holes in the guy's story.
posted by PsuDab93 at 7:39 AM on August 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
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This thread is closed to new comments.
But your relationship is two weeks old and is already surrounded by drama. That drama is unlikely to lessen in the near future - it will probably ramp up.
What is your (emotional, psychological, physical) investment in this? Is it worth all the drama that is and will continue to happen? Have you thought about the likelihood that he may really not be ready for the kind of relationship that you might be ready for?
If I were you, I'd break it off. But then, I really hate drama. Good luck,
posted by rtha at 8:46 AM on August 10, 2011 [8 favorites]