No one has ever said no to me before!

August 3, 2011 9:03 AM

My office is equivocating on my vacation request and I’m pretty sure that’s it’s not for any good reason, which I do know is ultimately not my call to make. But I’m in general not happy here and this is among several “last straws.” I want to push back but I’m not sure what the usual ways to proceed are. Entitled-millennial-brat filter.

This has never happened to me before at other offices, so I really have no idea what to do. It has always just been “work it out with your team” with the assumption that my work would be done. At this company, there is no HR professional, there are no policies, there is no procedure for time off.

I asked for vacation during the first week of September. My first vacation request ever besides sick days. I am a low-level administrative person and I usually have enough to do to fill maybe 12% of my day if I work very slowly. I have literally absolutely no responsibilities that would suffer as a result of my vacation.

I got an email back in response to my request, asking me if I couldn’t choose different dates or shift the dates. Since it’s not an outright rejection I’m assuming that there is room for negotiation. Or rather push-back.

Here are the reasons that my request was “questioned:”

Another woman in my department has already been approved for those exact same dates, and they prefer not to have 2 admin people (there are 4 of us full-time and 2 part-time) out at the same time. Which I can understand as a policy in theory, but in reality, this woman’s and my duties do not overlap at all. I would not be covering any, not even a little bit, of her duties even if I were to stay in the office while she was out. Meanwhile, right now the Office Manager is on vacation and the boss that responded to my email is off today getting a facial.

They “suggest” 6 weeks notice for vacation requests. I asked in 5 weeks. Fine.

The first two weeks of the month are busier than the last two. This is just absolutely not true. I am relatively new so maybe they are trying to pull this on me that way. In fact, my one time-sensitive responsibility falls at the end of the month, which is why I scheduled my vacation for the beginning. On top of which, this is the 4-day week following Labor Day. I know that it will not be busy; I work in an industry where everyone stretches out their vacations and office closings around holidays. And again, the Office Manager is out for this first week of this month, and it is not busy.

Then they suggest that the last week of August is open and can I reschedule my trip. There was no actual outright denial or hint of a denial if I didn’t work with them.

I totally get that it is up to my employer to use whatever reasoning they want, fair or unfair. But since they are being unfair, it is getting my hackles up. The nitpickiness is a common theme here, it is a small family-run company and they are used to making decisions based on personal instead of professional factors. For example, I work with ordering supplies and I know that they have no clue how to make decisions about whether to approve a supply request or not—they say “Wow that seems like a lot of money” without regard to the actual cost-benefit tradeoff, or the comparative price of similar items, or any supply budget, and they just wind up punting the request up the command chain because no one wants to make a decision, whether approval or denial. I am very familiar with the vague CYA-sort-of-denial language that this email contained from their dealings with other employees that I have witnessed.

How do I argue back? I don’t know what’s appropriate even at a normally-functioning company with actual procedures. How does it work? I say “No I can’t move my trip, I need to go at this time”? I would take unpaid time if that was all that was on offer. (In normal circumstances I would say “I’ll be sure to have all of my work taken care of beforehand” but that doesn’t apply here, although I’ll probably still say it anyway.) Is that a grounds for termination?

Headline is sarcastic. I really do know that I have to do things I don't want to do, and I always have done them in the past (like playing human answering machine, staying until 6pm on a Friday of a holiday weekend when the building has shut down the electricity and literally everyone has gone home in order to answer the phones and tell callers that... the office is closed). But this just... ugh.

posted by thebazilist to Work & Money (23 answers total)

There was no actual outright denial or hint of a denial if I didn’t work with them.

They're hoping you get the hint.

How do I argue back?

You don't. You move your vacation to what they want.

Another way of approaching this is to give 3 options of when your vacation should be. They will be in a position of having to agree to at least one of the options, or they start looking unreasonable and inflexible, not you.

You describe your workplace as pretty dysfunctional and arbitrary: you can't change the workplace culture. It was there before you got there, and it will be the same long after you leave.
posted by deanc at 9:14 AM on August 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

Not allowing 2 people in the same small department to take the same 2 weeks off is totally normal.

Change your vacation time, and request dates further in advance in the future.
posted by jeather at 9:15 AM on August 3, 2011 [4 favorites]

I got an email back in response to my request, asking me if I couldn’t choose different dates or shift the dates."

They asked a question, so just say no. "I'm sorry, I've already made my travel arrangements. Next time I will be sure to clear it with you before I book my trip."
posted by something something at 9:16 AM on August 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

I usually have enough to do to fill maybe 12% of my day if I work very slowly.

I would only bring this up if you are angling for a permanent vacation.

Since it’s not an outright rejection I’m assuming that there is room for negotiation.

Or they were just being polite, and no is still no.
posted by nomisxid at 9:16 AM on August 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

Since you make it sound like its a relatively casual, personally driven shop, that's the approach you ought to take. You don't have policies and procedures, not even an HR staffer, to appeal to? So appeal to whomever it is that makes the decision. Tell them oh so much how you love this job but you desperately need this vacation, and that when you get back you will work oh so much harder, and you love working for them... or whatever.

But can I tell you what I, as a all-too-human middle manager, read in to your description of your work, work habits, and attitude? You sound sort of entitled, priveleged, and judgemental. You are new at the job, admittedly don't work that hard, and you have the audacity to complain about how the place is run? Ugh. And sometimes we old Gen X types sort of like to fuck around with that, just to flex our office muscles. Not saying that's fair, but I bet that's what's going on.
posted by RajahKing at 9:17 AM on August 3, 2011 [8 favorites]

You could point out that you are actually needed more at the end of the month than at the start, so you chose this date with company priorities in mind.

If you're in an at-will state, they don't need "grounds for termination" to terminate you. They can fire you for whatever reason they feel like except for religion, race, etc., or no reason at all. Will this company fire you over something like this? How can we know?

It sounds like you really don't like the way this company is run, and should probably be keeping an eye out for alternative employment. You're not going to fundamentally change the office culture, no matter what you do. For now, it doesn't make sense to have this one vacation request be a proxy for everything you dislike about the company. Their request that you choose another date is not "unfair" just because you disagree with their assumptions and reasoning.
posted by jon1270 at 9:18 AM on August 3, 2011

6 weeks lead time for vacation? Cripes!

I would write back saying a bit of what you've told us here--that the other one who'll be on vacation has duties that don't overlap with yours, that you've scheduled your vacation around your responsibilities, etc. Make it clear that everything will be handled and that you're not going to put undue hardship on anybody.

I think if they meant no, they would have said no. This is an attempt to guilt you into backing down without having to say no (I have some experience with this at my workplace). Considering you're not thrilled with the job anyway, I would push back a little; I bet they'll back down.
posted by WorkingMyWayHome at 9:21 AM on August 3, 2011 [3 favorites]

The only argument you have is the you do not cover that other lady's work (X person will do that, I assume), and that X person who is also on vacation does not cover your work. Also, you chose the dates because in your experience, you have a lot more work at the end of the month, so you expect the first two weeks of September to be slower (allowing you catch up time when you get back if you need it).

But they can still tell you no.
posted by Medieval Maven at 9:21 AM on August 3, 2011

I don't see how they are being unfair unless you know these rules don't apply to everyone. If they have a policy of no 2 people being gone at the same time, then there you go. Were you aware of the 6 week thing? If you were aware, then there you go. Seems a little ridiculus, but then again if it was laid out of you, you can't say you didn't know. The last thing is their perception and i am not sure you can change that especially since your best argument is basically i don't do that much anyway.

As far as pushing back if you wish, i am not sure the best way to proceed, but i do know i wouldn't mention you have very little to do. That's a good way to become a part timer.
posted by domino at 9:23 AM on August 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

You know, you dropped the ball on this one. Their policy is six weeks lead time on vacations, and no more than one admin out at a time, exactly to prevent the situation you are trying to create. The other admin gave notice further ahead of time, and she won. You lost. If you'd asked before her, your probably would have been approved and hers denied.

You can take your vacation and risk getting fired, or you can move your vacation. But you snoozed on the advanced notice, and got burned.
posted by juniperesque at 9:31 AM on August 3, 2011 [13 favorites]

If they "suggest" 6 weeks advance notice and in the same breath "suggest" that you reschedule with even less lead time, then perhaps they are just being difficult for the sake of being difficult.

If it were me, I'd say something like "I picked this time because my absence then would have the least impact on the business' operations, and I've already started making plans around it. Thank you for accommodating me."
posted by adamrice at 9:33 AM on August 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

How do I argue back?

You don't have to argue and frankly it didn't read like they were flat out saying "no". They are fishing for wiggle room on your part.

If you really, really want to take that time off, just tell them you've already made plans, you're travelling for an event that can't be rescheduled, you already purchased travel, etc.

If you can move it to accommodate them, don't let them forget it at review time.

If they begin strong arming you over this, that's a different story.
posted by PsuDab93 at 9:50 AM on August 3, 2011

Oh, and if they can't make it without you for a week, I would suggest that maybe you are undercompensated.
posted by PsuDab93 at 9:51 AM on August 3, 2011

" At this company, there is no HR professional, there are no policies, there is no procedure for time off." - for everyone criticizing the OP for looking to play outside the rules, or whatever.

As someone else that works at a small, "family" style company with no HR and no official policies about ANYTHING, I feel your pain. It's hard to play by the rules when there aren't any. The head honcho here runs the company like he is our father (and he only hires 20-something women... nice), and seems to love the power trip of granting or denying our vacation "wishes" based on whatever his whim is at the moment. My only advice to you is to be nice, treat the email as a literal question, and answer back that, actually, your busy time is at the end of the month, which is why you scheduled your vacation at the beginning, and you hope they can accommodate you this time. Grovel, if necessary. When companies are run like this, sucking up to the top can be a vital survival skill.
posted by coupdefoudre at 10:14 AM on August 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

Yep, I have similar problems where I work. My supervisor is never happy about me taking vacation (because it means she might have to work), so she'll whine about it, hoping I'll change my mind. My attitude is that if all you're going to do is hint around that you aren't happy about it, I'm going to ignore that. If she ever actually said no, that would be one thing, but she's hoping I'll get the hint and withdraw the request (or, even better, attempt to withdraw the request, so that she can then grant it with much sighing and saying something like "oh, no, it's all right, I'm sure we'll manage somehow," thus showing how much she's suffering because of me).

Yes, it is actually that fucked up around here.
posted by WorkingMyWayHome at 10:53 AM on August 3, 2011

First, I would stop the emailing and sit down with this person face to face. It is harder for these types to say No to your face. Then, at the meeting, if this week in particular is so important to you, I would first explain why the week before is no good because of your duties, then why this week is important (family vacation, specific travel deal, lunar eclipse where you are going, etc) and how you will work with the department to make sure nothing is uncovered. If this person still insists, "No" well then suck it up or move on.
posted by AugustWest at 11:00 AM on August 3, 2011

You left out some important details in your question, like why it is so important that you have the first week in September off, how long you've worked there (you say that it is your first vacation request 'ever' but then note that you are 'relatively new'), and who IS covering for the other woman taking the first week in September off. All of these are important, too.

You seem to want to stick to your guns because it is 'unfair'. If you don't have reservations, why not move your vacation a week or two to comply with the 6 week notice?

You, being relatively new, are the low man on the totem pole here. They may worry that overlooking the guidelines they have in place for you would be setting a bad precedent and anger those senior employees who do have to follow them.

Maybe you won't be covering the other woman's duties, but whoever is left in Admin now will have to cover for two women. If employee B usually covers for her, now A has to cover for you, and the part-time admins will have to pick up their slack. It's not about what you or this woman specifically do, it's about the workload that will now fall on less people because two of you are off at once. They may not want the part-time people taking on more hours.

I would suggest you forget the perceived unfairness and reschedule, if possible.
posted by misha at 11:14 AM on August 3, 2011 [4 favorites]

On preview, what misha said, almost verbatim.

Also, I wouldn't pretend that you already have non-refundable tickets, etc. There are a few reasons someone would make commitments like this before knowing they had the time off, and none of them would reflect well on you.
posted by Room 641-A at 11:37 AM on August 3, 2011 [3 favorites]

If I've got this correctly.

- The person who asked for time off first was approved. This person overlaps your job category within your department.
- By your own tally, you don't have any work to do for 35 hours a week.
- You are a new, low-level employee.

In this position you don't argue; you can present your case. Honestly, I don't see the "not fair" thing that you do. Another employee requested vacation first. That was honored. Businesses can allocate vacation time by first request or by tenure. Either way, that employee would have got that time off approved.

The other argument is that they really don't need all these admins. I'm not sure that is your most productive position to take.

At best, you could ask again and force them to say yes or no. Wait until the office manager returns. Tell the office manager you asked previously and ask for clarification.
posted by 26.2 at 12:01 PM on August 3, 2011

The first week of September makes sense because many people have Labor Day off - thus, thebazilist would be able to take off the whole week for the cost of only 4 days of vacation instead of 5 (assuming a M-F schedule).

I'd probably ask for clarification in-person when you see whoever approves vacation next to find out what's really driving the question, then you can address the concern specifically.
posted by bookdragoness at 12:26 PM on August 3, 2011

it is a small family-run company and they are used to making decisions based on personal instead of professional factors

Well, there you go. Never try to apply big-business logic to people who don't use it. Instead, if you want to keep this job you'll have to respect this company's methods of communication and decision making. Oftentimes, Getting Along is more important than any Skills you might bring to the job.

They are trying to very politely, and without hurting your feelings, tell you to move your week off. It might be due to the unwritten policy about having more than a couple people off at once. It might be that you have less seniority than other people wanting the same week off. It might be something else entirely. Move your week, remember to request things 6 weeks in advance in future, and don't talk about it again. It doesn't sound unfair to me. Inconvenient, perhaps, but not unfair.
posted by hms71 at 12:43 PM on August 3, 2011

They run the company and they can make up the rules. They said no to your taking vacation when you wanted it. Your choices are what they offer you now.

And don't, for the love of god, point out when the actual busy season of your job is or that you do very little or that your duties and the other person's don't overlap. That just makes you look like the first one to get canned when the layoffs come.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:31 PM on August 3, 2011

As someone else that works at a small, "family" style company with no HR and no official policies about ANYTHING, I feel your pain. It's hard to play by the rules when there aren't any. The head honcho here runs the company like he is our father (and he only hires 20-something women... nice), and seems to love the power trip of granting or denying our vacation "wishes" based on whatever his whim is at the moment. My only advice to you is to be nice, treat the email as a literal question, and answer back that, actually, your busy time is at the end of the month, which is why you scheduled your vacation at the beginning, and you hope they can accommodate you this time. Grovel, if necessary. When companies are run like this, sucking up to the top can be a vital survival skill.

I worked for many years at a similar company (three employees plus the boss who was also the owner), save for the boss' policiy of hiring only 20-something females.....instead, he hired only employees that were able to display good cheer and an upbeat personality no matter what the circumstances (meaning he was often an unpredictable, unreasonable pain in the butt). He wanted employees who would sympathize with his side of the business story no matter how in the wrong he was. He also wanted employees who would bounce back immediately after being chastised. Once I learned to play his game and, yes I'll admit it - suck up massively, I was eventually able to pretty much write my own ticket. Mind you, he still fretted at first whenever I announced I was going to take some of my allotted vacation time (I had to leave a phone number where I could be reached lest some corporate emergency popped up), but he always acquiesced because he was more fearful of me quitting (and him losing his sympathetic shoulder/chief cheerleader) if he denied me the time off.

So, yeah, it ain't fair, but neither is the corporate world and, unless you work for a Fortune 500 company with a written-in-stone employee handbook, you'll benefit more by attuning yourself to the boss' whims and wants. In your particular case since it seems like management doesn't want you to take these particular days off, this is your opportunity to express your dedication to job and company by saying "well, I apologize for not asking for the time six weeks ago, and I know that it will be hectic here for those four days since Admin will be gone, too, but I'd really appreciate it if you let me take this week off - unpaid if necessary - since I've made some plans that involved unrefundable deposits. And rest assured I will give proper notice for future vacation time.
posted by Oriole Adams at 2:42 PM on August 3, 2011