Bunched-Up Consonants
August 2, 2011 7:18 AM Subscribe
Phonetics question: I don't get the idea of consonants, one after the other, at the end of a syllable, without even a schwa in-between.
When looking at phonetic transcriptions of words in some languages, I sometimes see a group of two or three consonants bunched together, often at the end of the word. I'm having trouble understanding how this works. Isn't it necessary to have at least some slight version of a schwa in between? How would the consonants be pronounced if there were no flow of breath? What am I missing? (I do get the idea of consonant blends like 'st' and 'pl' at the beginning of a word or syllable; it's when it happens at the end of a syllable that I can't picture what's going on.)
When looking at phonetic transcriptions of words in some languages, I sometimes see a group of two or three consonants bunched together, often at the end of the word. I'm having trouble understanding how this works. Isn't it necessary to have at least some slight version of a schwa in between? How would the consonants be pronounced if there were no flow of breath? What am I missing? (I do get the idea of consonant blends like 'st' and 'pl' at the beginning of a word or syllable; it's when it happens at the end of a syllable that I can't picture what's going on.)
Response by poster: Example, in Yiddish, the verb 'to have': /hobm/
posted by Paquda at 7:21 AM on August 2, 2011
posted by Paquda at 7:21 AM on August 2, 2011
The term you're looking for there is "syllabic consonant". The 'm' isn't in a syllable with the 'b', it forms a syllable of its own.
posted by FlyingMonkey at 7:22 AM on August 2, 2011
posted by FlyingMonkey at 7:22 AM on August 2, 2011
Oh, I see. I don't know about Yiddish but I think that happens with German verbs a lot. I think (and that syllabic consonant wikipedia link seems to suggest?) that you're right, there is a bit of a schwa in there. The example of "rhythm" is a good one.
posted by little cow make small moo at 7:28 AM on August 2, 2011
posted by little cow make small moo at 7:28 AM on August 2, 2011
We have clustered consonants at the end of syllables in English too, with no vowel sounds to separate them. Examples: "examples" "consonants" "syllables" "sounds"
posted by adamrice at 7:31 AM on August 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by adamrice at 7:31 AM on August 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
Not necessary at all: "strengths", for example has three distinct consonant sounds with no intervening vowels. But you do have to have some facility with the language as it is spoken to be able to do it.
posted by Etrigan at 7:39 AM on August 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Etrigan at 7:39 AM on August 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
This happens with words like ample: /ˈæmpl/. Since "l" is a voiced consonant to which you can easily move from the "p" without moving to a vowel first, the whole second syllable in "ample" is just the "l" sound. As FlyingMonkey commented upthread, many of these that you're seeing could be syllabic consonants.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 8:03 AM on August 2, 2011
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 8:03 AM on August 2, 2011
adamrice and Etrigan have it. Try getting a student from most non-English backgrounds to learn the word "twelfths".
In short, different languages have different phonotactics and their consonant clusters both look strange and feel alien to your mouth because you're used to English phonotactics.
posted by Ahab at 8:58 AM on August 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
In short, different languages have different phonotactics and their consonant clusters both look strange and feel alien to your mouth because you're used to English phonotactics.
posted by Ahab at 8:58 AM on August 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
Best answer: How would the consonants be pronounced if there were no flow of breath?
This is misleading you. Consonants have breath flow, but their manner of articulation is different than that of vowels. Some consonants even have continuous breath flow – consonants such as fricatives, sibilants and nasals (all classified under 'continuants'), but not including obstruents (such as plosives/stops, where the air flow is actually obstructed or blocked, and then released). Do some research into the sonority hierarchy (also called the sonority scale) - a classification scheme for sound that arranges all the phonetic segments based on their sonority (i.e. 'resonance' or 'loudness') - this will help untangle the complex consonant cluster problem. Also, don't be fooled by the archaic English definition of 'consonant' and 'vowel' that is taught in elementary schools. That'll mess you up.
Lastly, keep in mind that not all languages realize the notion of a syllable the same way (some don't even used syllables at all, but rather morae (Japanese) or other timing structures). The notion of the English syllable doesn't nicely map onto other languages' timing patterns. (This is part of the reason why haikus in English are so amusing and tricky, btw.)
posted by iamkimiam at 9:54 AM on August 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
This is misleading you. Consonants have breath flow, but their manner of articulation is different than that of vowels. Some consonants even have continuous breath flow – consonants such as fricatives, sibilants and nasals (all classified under 'continuants'), but not including obstruents (such as plosives/stops, where the air flow is actually obstructed or blocked, and then released). Do some research into the sonority hierarchy (also called the sonority scale) - a classification scheme for sound that arranges all the phonetic segments based on their sonority (i.e. 'resonance' or 'loudness') - this will help untangle the complex consonant cluster problem. Also, don't be fooled by the archaic English definition of 'consonant' and 'vowel' that is taught in elementary schools. That'll mess you up.
Lastly, keep in mind that not all languages realize the notion of a syllable the same way (some don't even used syllables at all, but rather morae (Japanese) or other timing structures). The notion of the English syllable doesn't nicely map onto other languages' timing patterns. (This is part of the reason why haikus in English are so amusing and tricky, btw.)
posted by iamkimiam at 9:54 AM on August 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
> In short, different languages have different phonotactics and their consonant clusters both look strange and feel alien to your mouth because you're used to English phonotactics.
This is exactly right. English is way down on the list of languages with complex consonant clusters; Georgian is notorious for them—that Wikipedia article quotes გვფრცქვნი gvprckvni ("You peel us") and მწვრთნელი mc'vrtneli ("trainer"), and while extreme, they are not unrepresentative. You just have to get used to it, the way you do to tones in Chinese.
posted by languagehat at 10:14 AM on August 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
This is exactly right. English is way down on the list of languages with complex consonant clusters; Georgian is notorious for them—that Wikipedia article quotes გვფრცქვნი gvprckvni ("You peel us") and მწვრთნელი mc'vrtneli ("trainer"), and while extreme, they are not unrepresentative. You just have to get used to it, the way you do to tones in Chinese.
posted by languagehat at 10:14 AM on August 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
I heart Mefite lingusts!
(Sorry to derail, I would have chipped in something 100% less useful than imakimiam, Ahab and our dear LH!)
posted by Wilder at 11:27 AM on August 2, 2011
(Sorry to derail, I would have chipped in something 100% less useful than imakimiam, Ahab and our dear LH!)
posted by Wilder at 11:27 AM on August 2, 2011
I'd like to ask the OP what their background/knowledge is which led to them asking this rather strange question. They're proficient in English, or they couldn't have asked, but they seem never to have heard English spoken, or else, doesn't the question pretty much answer itself? If you've heard someone speak out loud the word "twelfths", or 'scripts" or "strengths" or any of the other words mentioned above, well ... there's your answer. Or am I missing something?
posted by AmbroseChapel at 7:06 PM on August 2, 2011
posted by AmbroseChapel at 7:06 PM on August 2, 2011
I'd like to ask the OP what their background/knowledge is which led to them asking this rather strange question. They're proficient in English, or they couldn't have asked, but they seem never to have heard English spoken, or else, doesn't the question pretty much answer itself? If you've heard someone speak out loud the word "twelfths", or 'scripts" or "strengths" or any of the other words mentioned above, well ... there's your answer. Or am I missing something?
They were just focusing on other languages and probably not realizing that it also happens in English. Especially if the consonant clusters that they saw in the other languages did not resemble anything we see in English (such as hobm).
posted by serena15221 at 9:24 PM on August 2, 2011
They were just focusing on other languages and probably not realizing that it also happens in English. Especially if the consonant clusters that they saw in the other languages did not resemble anything we see in English (such as hobm).
posted by serena15221 at 9:24 PM on August 2, 2011
Response by poster: Thanks--all the answers were helpful, but, yes, as iamkimiam said, I was thinking in terms of vowels being the flow of breath and consonants the brakes on that flow. I thought of re-defining my question to focus on consonants that are specifically stops, like 'b', followed by other consonants, but then realized that that works too, even in English, e.g., 'stops', 'rubs'. So I think maybe I just needed to realize that some consonants--the ones whose sound you can continue for as long as your breath lasts--function similarly to vowels.
posted by Paquda at 7:01 AM on August 3, 2011
posted by Paquda at 7:01 AM on August 3, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by little cow make small moo at 7:19 AM on August 2, 2011