a dance with dragons, yea or nay?
July 28, 2011 2:55 AM Subscribe
Should I read A Dance With Dragons? Especially interested in hearing from people who once considered themselves fans but cooled on the series years ago and read ADWD anyway and liked it (or didn't!). Possible mild spoilers for ADWD re: characters.
I thought A Feast For Crows was somewhat of a mistake the minute I heard it was going to be "a whole book for half the characters" and time has not changed that opinion. It reminded me very much of middle-period Robert Jordan: ballooning cast of characters, lack of direction, plot threads out the wazoo, and an author who'd seemingly lost control of the series (or at least couldn't figure out how to get to where he wanted). It's not that AFFC was bad so much as unnecessary. At that point I kind of decided I wouldn't bother with the rest of ASOIAF, at least not until the series was finished.
But ADWD seems to be getting favorable reviews from both readers and critics. Plus all the talk about the TV series has me excited despite myself.
What I know about the book: there's an awful lot of Daenerys (and I've always found her character unlikable, her plot irrelevant, and her dragons lame), Jon and Tyrion are back in a big way, my favorite character Arya has at least a few chapters, there's a whole bunch of characters on the POV list that I hardly even remember now. And, most concerning, the book ends with a giant pile of cliffhangers. I got tired of all the cliffhangers a long time ago, especially of the is s/he really dead or not kind.
So is this the book that got the series back on track or is it another AFFC? Did it rekindle your interest in the series? Should I read it now despite a probable 4+ year wait for the next? Are the cliffhangers that bad?
Please keep the spoilers to a minimum as what I've outlined above really is all the major details I know. Unless Arya, or whatever she's calling herself now, dies. Someone better tell me so I can give up.
I thought A Feast For Crows was somewhat of a mistake the minute I heard it was going to be "a whole book for half the characters" and time has not changed that opinion. It reminded me very much of middle-period Robert Jordan: ballooning cast of characters, lack of direction, plot threads out the wazoo, and an author who'd seemingly lost control of the series (or at least couldn't figure out how to get to where he wanted). It's not that AFFC was bad so much as unnecessary. At that point I kind of decided I wouldn't bother with the rest of ASOIAF, at least not until the series was finished.
But ADWD seems to be getting favorable reviews from both readers and critics. Plus all the talk about the TV series has me excited despite myself.
What I know about the book: there's an awful lot of Daenerys (and I've always found her character unlikable, her plot irrelevant, and her dragons lame), Jon and Tyrion are back in a big way, my favorite character Arya has at least a few chapters, there's a whole bunch of characters on the POV list that I hardly even remember now. And, most concerning, the book ends with a giant pile of cliffhangers. I got tired of all the cliffhangers a long time ago, especially of the is s/he really dead or not kind.
So is this the book that got the series back on track or is it another AFFC? Did it rekindle your interest in the series? Should I read it now despite a probable 4+ year wait for the next? Are the cliffhangers that bad?
Please keep the spoilers to a minimum as what I've outlined above really is all the major details I know. Unless Arya, or whatever she's calling herself now, dies. Someone better tell me so I can give up.
Best answer: I was disappointed and bored with AFFC (although thought a little better of it on re-reading shortly before ADwD -probably to do with knowing what to expect rather than being all "another new viewpoint character? Who are you and where is Tyrion?" about it), so I understand where you're coming from. ADwD definitely has its flaws, but I preferred it to AFFC by quite a margin.
Pros:
- less limited than AFFC in terms of the character cast
- not as many new viewpoint characters (although there are some, again)
- definitely more of a sense that the series is back under control and Martin knows where he's going with it
- cliffhangers aren't really all that cliffhangerish - what Wylla said above, basically
- things actually happen.
Cons:
- there is indeed a lot of Daenerys, and her chapters drag to a point where I found them boring for a good while mid-book even though I like her viewpoint
- Martin getting the series back under control seems to involve an awful lot of shuffling to get characters where he needs them to be both physically and emotionally, and that can get quite boring
- more viewpoints from characters who are either new or hard to remember from previous books without a recent re-read
- some really disturbing characters/events, even for Martin. (Obviously YMMV on that, but for me the points where I came close to thinking "I'm not sure I want to read any more of the series after this" was due to that.)
On balance I'd recommend reading it, if you liked the series up until AFFC.
posted by Catseye at 3:40 AM on July 28, 2011 [1 favorite]
Pros:
- less limited than AFFC in terms of the character cast
- not as many new viewpoint characters (although there are some, again)
- definitely more of a sense that the series is back under control and Martin knows where he's going with it
- cliffhangers aren't really all that cliffhangerish - what Wylla said above, basically
- things actually happen.
Cons:
- there is indeed a lot of Daenerys, and her chapters drag to a point where I found them boring for a good while mid-book even though I like her viewpoint
- Martin getting the series back under control seems to involve an awful lot of shuffling to get characters where he needs them to be both physically and emotionally, and that can get quite boring
- more viewpoints from characters who are either new or hard to remember from previous books without a recent re-read
- some really disturbing characters/events, even for Martin. (Obviously YMMV on that, but for me the points where I came close to thinking "I'm not sure I want to read any more of the series after this" was due to that.)
On balance I'd recommend reading it, if you liked the series up until AFFC.
posted by Catseye at 3:40 AM on July 28, 2011 [1 favorite]
Chiming in again to agree with Catseye on the disturbing content. There's a lot of it, even compared to GRRM - very graphic accounts of abuse/executions/death-by-illness, etc.
Nothing you wouldn't find in reading a graphic account of certain real-world events, but I know a lot of people who had read the first 4 books were a bit surprised.
posted by Wylla at 3:51 AM on July 28, 2011
Nothing you wouldn't find in reading a graphic account of certain real-world events, but I know a lot of people who had read the first 4 books were a bit surprised.
posted by Wylla at 3:51 AM on July 28, 2011
I read this book as a good sign that the downward trend of Feast For Crows was reversing. There still is at least one wasted POV character in Dance, but I suspect that was a vestige of previous drafts that somehow survived the cut. The rest is clearly an effort to get things back on track after the characters sort of ran away with the story a few books ago. This means at times some action seems a bit forced, but I'd rather have that then long meandering passages of nothing.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 4:43 AM on July 28, 2011
posted by robocop is bleeding at 4:43 AM on July 28, 2011
I'm planning to read it, but not until I finish going back through A Feast for Crows, having just re-read the first three volumes. It's been a while since I'd read the previous books, and I knew I'd be lost if I jumped straight into A Dance with Dragons.
posted by valkyryn at 5:05 AM on July 28, 2011
posted by valkyryn at 5:05 AM on July 28, 2011
the young rope-rider: "there are multiple "are they dead"? cliffhangers"
...most (not all) of which are the type of cliffhanger I referred to above, so not a "I have to wait for the next book to find out" type of 'cliffhanger'.
posted by Wylla at 5:22 AM on July 28, 2011
...most (not all) of which are the type of cliffhanger I referred to above, so not a "I have to wait for the next book to find out" type of 'cliffhanger'.
posted by Wylla at 5:22 AM on July 28, 2011
Best answer: there's an awful lot of Daenerys (and I've always found her character unlikable, her plot irrelevant, and her dragons lame)
This is why I stopped reading. My advice? Go read Steven Erikson instead.
posted by Shoggoth at 5:35 AM on July 28, 2011
This is why I stopped reading. My advice? Go read Steven Erikson instead.
posted by Shoggoth at 5:35 AM on July 28, 2011
I decided not to read it because without re-reading at least AFFC I know I'd be lost, and I hated AFFC. What I've gathered is that it's ok but not great. If you have nothing else on your reading list and don't mind going through N thousand pages again, sure. If you have other things sitting on your list to read, I'd wait 10 years for the next one. Between then and now another author might pick up the same style but fix the problems.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 5:43 AM on July 28, 2011
posted by a robot made out of meat at 5:43 AM on July 28, 2011
Catseye and Wylla: thanks for the warning about the disturbing content. I'd been vaguely considering asking something like this question myself, but for me the problem with AFFC was that I found it too unrelentingly grim and nasty; it sounds as if I'd better quit while I'm ahead.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 6:42 AM on July 28, 2011
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 6:42 AM on July 28, 2011
I just finished it. I enjoyed it quite a bit - I've been waiting for six years for this book to be published, after all. I re-read the first four last year so I THOUGHT I was caught up, but wound up having too many "...now who is this again/Why is this guy here, I thought he was in Penthos/Didn't he die in the last book?" moments.
I needed a "Previously, on A Song of Ice and Fire..." recap.
So I spent a few days looking through the first three books' chapter synopses at The Tower of the Hand, which helped immensely in being able to pick up where things left off for the start of ADWD. When I got to, oh, about page 700 or so in ADWD (around when the timelines come back together again), I read the synopses of the chapters of the fourth book. It was totally helpful and fun to zip through everything again. Not only did I know what was going on, but I was really excited to read ADWD after getting all caught up.
I'm a diehard GRRM and epic fantasy fan, so I suffered through the slow parts and savored the good stuff.
posted by Elly Vortex at 7:29 AM on July 28, 2011
I needed a "Previously, on A Song of Ice and Fire..." recap.
So I spent a few days looking through the first three books' chapter synopses at The Tower of the Hand, which helped immensely in being able to pick up where things left off for the start of ADWD. When I got to, oh, about page 700 or so in ADWD (around when the timelines come back together again), I read the synopses of the chapters of the fourth book. It was totally helpful and fun to zip through everything again. Not only did I know what was going on, but I was really excited to read ADWD after getting all caught up.
I'm a diehard GRRM and epic fantasy fan, so I suffered through the slow parts and savored the good stuff.
posted by Elly Vortex at 7:29 AM on July 28, 2011
If you like the world building, political machinations of the books, you will probably enjoy it.
There is quite a bit of historical background, some pretty detailed descriptions of cities, etc.
If you just want stuff to finally happen, well, might want to wait until the next one.
posted by madajb at 8:02 AM on July 28, 2011
There is quite a bit of historical background, some pretty detailed descriptions of cities, etc.
If you just want stuff to finally happen, well, might want to wait until the next one.
posted by madajb at 8:02 AM on July 28, 2011
re: Arya A casual reader might have said "Oh, my god! She's permanently changed! What a cliffhanger!"
I don't think I was reading casually in thinking that Arya was permanently blinded. It was shocking, but I thought he was indending to do some radical character redevelopment. It could have been interesting.
Most (not all) of the 'cliffhangers' at the end of ADWD are like that in some sense or another.
That's why I won't be reading the latest book. Throwing blindness out there and quickly reversing it makes this series feel like The Young and The Restless.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 10:29 AM on July 28, 2011
I don't think I was reading casually in thinking that Arya was permanently blinded. It was shocking, but I thought he was indending to do some radical character redevelopment. It could have been interesting.
Most (not all) of the 'cliffhangers' at the end of ADWD are like that in some sense or another.
That's why I won't be reading the latest book. Throwing blindness out there and quickly reversing it makes this series feel like The Young and The Restless.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 10:29 AM on July 28, 2011
One of my friends declared that GRRM cheats at his writing and plots. This is entirely true and almost entirely why I can no longer read him. Oh well. My final prediction? Arya and Danerys combine to form some sort of Mother Earth deiety.... and reincarnate the whole world since everybody else is dead.
posted by Jacen at 6:01 PM on July 28, 2011
posted by Jacen at 6:01 PM on July 28, 2011
Response by poster: On balance it sounds like a heavily qualified read it but maybe wait for a library or borrow a copy situation. Especially as it costs something like $60 in bookshops here and I'm not getting the impression that it's $60 worth of OMG awesome.
posted by 6550 at 10:32 PM on July 28, 2011
posted by 6550 at 10:32 PM on July 28, 2011
Typical Martin character arc: wonderful character is introduced, reader falls in love with him or her, then Martin arranges to have them tortured by intent or mere event into keening mass of bleeding barely recognizable tissue-- except for the ones that are killed outright in more grotesque and agonizing ways than Mengele, constrained as he was by the laws of physics and physiology, was ever able to devise.
Martin appears to be taking some bizarre kind of revenge on people or peoples unknown.
But not on me. Not any longer.
posted by jamjam at 11:34 PM on July 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Martin appears to be taking some bizarre kind of revenge on people or peoples unknown.
But not on me. Not any longer.
posted by jamjam at 11:34 PM on July 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I liked Affc, but I can understand some of the criticisms of ADWD, particularly from people who haven't done recent re-reads. If you don't have all the details of the previous books in your head, it's worth re-reading at least the wikipedia entries, as you will miss some things if you don't, and be quite frustrated.
There are a lot of red-herring 'answers' to various questions in the book (easier to spot if you've recently re-read other bits of the series), and Danerys's plotline is indeed very slow moving (you can really see the marks of the logistical/timeline problems GRRM had in getting the book to work. She sits still a lot waiting for other characters to move.
The cliffhangers aren't really an issue, as most only appear to be "giant open questions" --> there are major hints as to how they will resolve.
THink of them as being like Arya's situation at the end of AFFC. A casual reader might have said "Oh, my god! She's permanently changed! What a cliffhanger!", but someone who read carefully would have said "Ah, she's not permanently changed, so the real question is how is she not permanently changed and for what purpose is she changed temporarily?" Most (not all) of the 'cliffhangers' at the end of ADWD are like that in some sense or another.
posted by Wylla at 3:21 AM on July 28, 2011 [1 favorite]