Clash of the tartans
May 22, 2005 10:41 PM Subscribe
I'm supposed to be best man in a wedding for someone whose family is getting bent out of shape about me wearing my family's tartan because his family and mine never got along. Are there rules for this sort of thing?
My family has Scot on both sides, but really we're American through and through. My friend is second generation and still has family in the old country. The tartan I'd like to use is from my mom's family- they're the side most into being Scottish.
It turns out my mom's clan and my best friend's have never gotten along. We used to joke about it, but it turns out that his family takes it seriously and this has become a subject for serious discussion as the wedding approaches. So- if I wear my clan's tartan, it'll turn into an issue. I don't want to wear his for two reasons- 1) my family will never let me hear the end of spending $450 on some other clan's tartan when I don't even have one of my own clan's, and 2) it is really irritating to me to have my friend's family bring this crap over into the new world in any serious way.
On the other hand, I don't have any strong attachment to my family's clans- they really don't affect my life much except when I'm at the Games (or talking to my friend's family).
-Should I wear my dad's clan's tartan? It's apparently less controversial but that half of the family kind of sucked, and anyway, it's been in America for 200+ years- the only thing Scottish about it is the name.
-Should I wear my Mom's, and to hell with the old worlders? This is my inclination, but it IS a wedding, and there's no point in starting bad blood over something that isn't very relevant to my everyday life.
-Should I wear some clan-less tartan? There are hundreds of good-looking, non-affiliated tartans.
He's pretty set on everyone wearing a tartan, so plain formalwear is out, unless, again, I'm trying to make a statement.
Any ideas?
(Judging from the preview, the MI thing isn't working. Here's hoping the preview page is misleading.)
My family has Scot on both sides, but really we're American through and through. My friend is second generation and still has family in the old country. The tartan I'd like to use is from my mom's family- they're the side most into being Scottish.
It turns out my mom's clan and my best friend's have never gotten along. We used to joke about it, but it turns out that his family takes it seriously and this has become a subject for serious discussion as the wedding approaches. So- if I wear my clan's tartan, it'll turn into an issue. I don't want to wear his for two reasons- 1) my family will never let me hear the end of spending $450 on some other clan's tartan when I don't even have one of my own clan's, and 2) it is really irritating to me to have my friend's family bring this crap over into the new world in any serious way.
On the other hand, I don't have any strong attachment to my family's clans- they really don't affect my life much except when I'm at the Games (or talking to my friend's family).
-Should I wear my dad's clan's tartan? It's apparently less controversial but that half of the family kind of sucked, and anyway, it's been in America for 200+ years- the only thing Scottish about it is the name.
-Should I wear my Mom's, and to hell with the old worlders? This is my inclination, but it IS a wedding, and there's no point in starting bad blood over something that isn't very relevant to my everyday life.
-Should I wear some clan-less tartan? There are hundreds of good-looking, non-affiliated tartans.
He's pretty set on everyone wearing a tartan, so plain formalwear is out, unless, again, I'm trying to make a statement.
Any ideas?
(Judging from the preview, the MI thing isn't working. Here's hoping the preview page is misleading.)
Response by poster: Heh. That's a good compromise.
It's not like he usually minds a bit of a stramash, but I figure less stress = better where weddings are concerned, eh?
posted by small_ruminant at 10:59 PM on May 22, 2005
It's not like he usually minds a bit of a stramash, but I figure less stress = better where weddings are concerned, eh?
posted by small_ruminant at 10:59 PM on May 22, 2005
Aye, be ye a Campbell, laddie, your friend a MacDonald (or spelling variant)? If so, heaven help you.
In general I think it poor taste for one clan to ask someone from another clan to wear the first clan's tartan. This is serious business here, their wedding or no. If you had a strong attachment to your clan I would refuse to wear the other clan's tartan, period. However, which is more important, your friendship or your clan? It sounds from what you have said that you value the friendship more and don't have as much invested in clan identity, in which case even I, a proud Campbell, would don the MacDonald tartan for an evening. Depending upon the gravity of things, perhaps you could compromise and wear their tartan during the formal ceremony and change into yours during the festivities afterwards. It sounds like this might not be an option though.
posted by caddis at 11:00 PM on May 22, 2005
In general I think it poor taste for one clan to ask someone from another clan to wear the first clan's tartan. This is serious business here, their wedding or no. If you had a strong attachment to your clan I would refuse to wear the other clan's tartan, period. However, which is more important, your friendship or your clan? It sounds from what you have said that you value the friendship more and don't have as much invested in clan identity, in which case even I, a proud Campbell, would don the MacDonald tartan for an evening. Depending upon the gravity of things, perhaps you could compromise and wear their tartan during the formal ceremony and change into yours during the festivities afterwards. It sounds like this might not be an option though.
posted by caddis at 11:00 PM on May 22, 2005
The best man's whole job on the wedding day is to prevent the groom from having to stress out about anything except his impending doom future happiness. Wear an unaffiliated tartan.
posted by nicwolff at 11:18 PM on May 22, 2005
posted by nicwolff at 11:18 PM on May 22, 2005
If they are willing to buy the tartan, wear whatever they suggest. If you have to buy it, it is not unreasonable to suggest to them that you should be allowed to wear a tartan that is at least appropriate and preferrably your first choice. (I happen to think that asking a member of your wedding party to pay for something you pick out is very rude, but I realise I am in the minority in North America.)
Do tartans pass patrilineally? If so, your father's could be the most appropriate to wear.
Are there tartans for a region you are from? As far as I know, Nova Scotia has a tartan which any resident can use - my grandmother's dishes has it.
But you can also rent a formal kilt and jacket, if you don't want to make the plunge. In Toronto, it was about $150 CND.
posted by jb at 11:20 PM on May 22, 2005
Do tartans pass patrilineally? If so, your father's could be the most appropriate to wear.
Are there tartans for a region you are from? As far as I know, Nova Scotia has a tartan which any resident can use - my grandmother's dishes has it.
But you can also rent a formal kilt and jacket, if you don't want to make the plunge. In Toronto, it was about $150 CND.
posted by jb at 11:20 PM on May 22, 2005
I got an attitude problem with this. If you're his BEST FRIEND, then what matters your clan? Feuds aren't forever. If the old feud is a problem, what's he doing hanging with someone the likes of yourself?
Tell your FRIEND to find himself some balls and tell his family to fck off. You two are FRIENDS, damit, and if that can't trump a stupid old-world feud, then his family are living in fantasy land and don' deserve your notice. Isn't the world screwed up enough without such nonsense?
posted by Goofyy at 11:29 PM on May 22, 2005 [1 favorite]
Tell your FRIEND to find himself some balls and tell his family to fck off. You two are FRIENDS, damit, and if that can't trump a stupid old-world feud, then his family are living in fantasy land and don' deserve your notice. Isn't the world screwed up enough without such nonsense?
posted by Goofyy at 11:29 PM on May 22, 2005 [1 favorite]
What Goofyy said. And my family is quite Scottish, though to disclaim, I don't really put much weight on that or derive much from it other than geneological curiosity and a penchant for strong drink and food.
Yeah, clans and tartans are culturally important, but when it comes down to bad blood and bad feelings and feuding and crap like that, how else do you stop the feud except by making gestures of peace and friendship?
Otherwise you might as well be wearing red and blue bandanas and capping each other in the ass.
It's not your wedding or ceremony. Be cool.
And being cool could certainly be trying to explaining to him and/or his family that it shouldn't be that big of a deal, and that perhaps it shouldn't be seen as a slight that you want to wear your family's tartan, but a show of respect and honor to their clan, and that you wish to build friendships and show your true colors proudly with theirs. But don't push it.
posted by loquacious at 12:16 AM on May 23, 2005
Yeah, clans and tartans are culturally important, but when it comes down to bad blood and bad feelings and feuding and crap like that, how else do you stop the feud except by making gestures of peace and friendship?
Otherwise you might as well be wearing red and blue bandanas and capping each other in the ass.
It's not your wedding or ceremony. Be cool.
And being cool could certainly be trying to explaining to him and/or his family that it shouldn't be that big of a deal, and that perhaps it shouldn't be seen as a slight that you want to wear your family's tartan, but a show of respect and honor to their clan, and that you wish to build friendships and show your true colors proudly with theirs. But don't push it.
posted by loquacious at 12:16 AM on May 23, 2005
I, too, want to know which clans are involved, and had caddis' question about Campbells and MacDonalds, as well as the same response ("heaven help you") though I'm astonished that caddis would admit to being a Campbell!
But real answer: I'd say get an unaffiliated one, or else your father's, whichever is more aesthetically appealing. You can use it for other occasions as well, and only the real Scots will know that it's essentially meaningless (if you choose unaffiliated), and they would appreciate the story. If your family's tartan turns out to be something you want for whatever reason, well, you can wear it at your own wedding or other formal events.
Essentially, nicwolff has it.
posted by librarina at 1:12 AM on May 23, 2005
But real answer: I'd say get an unaffiliated one, or else your father's, whichever is more aesthetically appealing. You can use it for other occasions as well, and only the real Scots will know that it's essentially meaningless (if you choose unaffiliated), and they would appreciate the story. If your family's tartan turns out to be something you want for whatever reason, well, you can wear it at your own wedding or other formal events.
Essentially, nicwolff has it.
posted by librarina at 1:12 AM on May 23, 2005
Are you the approximate size of any of your friend's younger brothers or cousins who aren't in the wedding party? You might be able to swing a compromise where you neither have to part with $450.00 for a kilt you won't wear again nor continue a blood feud by dressing Hatfield at the McCoy party. Chances are, if you're willing to pay a hundred and fifty bucks toward a kilt one of their clan can keep, you won't incur the wrath of either side.
posted by Sallyfur at 1:31 AM on May 23, 2005
posted by Sallyfur at 1:31 AM on May 23, 2005
it doesn't particularly matter that tartans (of the clan affiliated variety) are all a grand hoax, does it? oh well never mind then. find one with some neon orange against electric blue.
posted by noisia at 1:52 AM on May 23, 2005
posted by noisia at 1:52 AM on May 23, 2005
So clans and tartans are really important to them, but all that stuff isn't allowed to be important to you? That's essentially what they're asking you to do. I would think that if they have a problem with your clan, your tartan, they should have a problem with you and wouldn't want you there at all.
I'm with the folks who say, wear your mom's tartan and eff those people who have a problem with it. And if anyone gets snappy with you about it, tell 'em to back the fuck up. This isn't Braveheart.
I dunno. It's a tough call. I can totally appreciate your concern for not wanting to rock the boat here... it's a wedding afterall, etc. etc. But the kinds of attitudes these people are displaying piss me off and personally, I hate catering to their bullshit. So if it were me, I would probably ask the groom, "What do YOU want me to wear". If he says it's up to you, I would wear your mom's tartan.
But what do I know?
posted by Witty at 2:39 AM on May 23, 2005
I'm with the folks who say, wear your mom's tartan and eff those people who have a problem with it. And if anyone gets snappy with you about it, tell 'em to back the fuck up. This isn't Braveheart.
I dunno. It's a tough call. I can totally appreciate your concern for not wanting to rock the boat here... it's a wedding afterall, etc. etc. But the kinds of attitudes these people are displaying piss me off and personally, I hate catering to their bullshit. So if it were me, I would probably ask the groom, "What do YOU want me to wear". If he says it's up to you, I would wear your mom's tartan.
But what do I know?
posted by Witty at 2:39 AM on May 23, 2005
As the question's pretty much been answered, I just want to congratulate you on the inspired post title...
posted by benzo8 at 3:25 AM on May 23, 2005
posted by benzo8 at 3:25 AM on May 23, 2005
Wear your dad's or a non-affiliated tartan, since you have a choice. There's no good reason to stir up trouble at your friend's wedding over something you don't seem terribly attached to on a personal level.
As an aside, can I just say.. 450 bucks for a plaid rectangle? Am I missing something here? Yowie!
posted by xyzzy at 3:51 AM on May 23, 2005
As an aside, can I just say.. 450 bucks for a plaid rectangle? Am I missing something here? Yowie!
posted by xyzzy at 3:51 AM on May 23, 2005
it is really irritating to me to have my friend's family bring this crap over into the new world in any serious way
If that's your attitude, even given that presumably they'll have Scottish family in town for the wedding I can't see why you want to rock the boat yourself. Wear something pretty and unaffiliated, you don't want your friend and his family to be upset every time they look at the pictures.
posted by dublinemma at 4:12 AM on May 23, 2005
If that's your attitude, even given that presumably they'll have Scottish family in town for the wedding I can't see why you want to rock the boat yourself. Wear something pretty and unaffiliated, you don't want your friend and his family to be upset every time they look at the pictures.
posted by dublinemma at 4:12 AM on May 23, 2005
Just ask yourself if you all were in Scotland whether you think they would ask you to were their clan's tartan? The fact that they would even consider it shows that it is as much a fashion statement on their part as an assertion of the clan.
posted by caddis at 4:25 AM on May 23, 2005
posted by caddis at 4:25 AM on May 23, 2005
Want to make a statement. Get the groom and all the grooms men to wear an unaffiliated tartan, and then declare that their tartan, and to heck with this feud.
Of course, that may end up with three clans feuding....
posted by eriko at 4:46 AM on May 23, 2005
Of course, that may end up with three clans feuding....
posted by eriko at 4:46 AM on May 23, 2005
Just ask yourself if you all were in Scotland whether you think they would ask you to were their clan's tartan?
Seriously? Nobody. Would. Give. A. Shit. It sounds like the family's doing that thing of grasping their roots, much as Brits who don't drink tea suddenly start gulping it in NYC.
The majority of the tartan thing is made up for the business of coining it from tourists anyway, sorry. Half the time these boys wore whatever damn bit o fabric was lying around anyway.
What would matter is this, and it sort of solves the problem: In Scotland, you do not wear your mother's tartan. It's an insult to your father, and your father's clan. It's genuinely frowned upon -- I've known dress hire shops to complain about people attempting it. So if you're caring about the rules of tartan, there's one that solves the problem.
posted by bonaldi at 5:37 AM on May 23, 2005 [1 favorite]
Seriously? Nobody. Would. Give. A. Shit. It sounds like the family's doing that thing of grasping their roots, much as Brits who don't drink tea suddenly start gulping it in NYC.
The majority of the tartan thing is made up for the business of coining it from tourists anyway, sorry. Half the time these boys wore whatever damn bit o fabric was lying around anyway.
What would matter is this, and it sort of solves the problem: In Scotland, you do not wear your mother's tartan. It's an insult to your father, and your father's clan. It's genuinely frowned upon -- I've known dress hire shops to complain about people attempting it. So if you're caring about the rules of tartan, there's one that solves the problem.
posted by bonaldi at 5:37 AM on May 23, 2005 [1 favorite]
If the family is getting bent out of shape over what you're wearing, just imagine the hell the bride is in right now. She's sitting at some godawful tea (she wanted a spa day, but mam -in-law insisted on a tea, it's traditional,) sobbing quietly into a napkin because the last thing she heard from her groom-to-be was that his best friend- the best man- might start a war because he wants to wear a kilt that's going to piss off half the guests. Her maid of honor (who spent the last three weeks swallowing insult after invective to make sure the bride never found out what the bridesmaids *really* think about their dresses,) slips a dollop of whiskey into the bride's tea and vows silently to kill your ass if you don't stop, remember that your job is to aid the groom on the field of love and war, not start new battles.
The maid of honor is really hot, too. (Even if you're married, you can still look.)
posted by headspace at 5:47 AM on May 23, 2005
The maid of honor is really hot, too. (Even if you're married, you can still look.)
posted by headspace at 5:47 AM on May 23, 2005
If your Mom's tartan is going to cause a fuss then you can use a US themed tartan to avoid the fuss while at the same time pushing the old world/new world point. The first person who asks about it will understand your point quite clearly while eliminating the family issues. Most will probably just notice you didn't wear your mom's tartan and leave it there. Costly, but it is better than paying for the other family's kilt.
Personally I'd declare it all bunk, get an all black kilt, and go clubbing after the reception.
posted by jwells at 6:00 AM on May 23, 2005
Personally I'd declare it all bunk, get an all black kilt, and go clubbing after the reception.
posted by jwells at 6:00 AM on May 23, 2005
Well, bonaldi seems to have solved the mother's tartan problem with a bit of Old World patriarchal wisdom, but it's still worth mentioning that you do have a right, small_ruminant, to at least ask for a sit down with the concerned parties over dinner or a drink to discuss the issue like adults.
I'm with loquacious on this one; it would be easy to announce the presence of your preferred tartan as an important sign the feud is over, at least among those present, with best wishes for the peace to spread, etc. There's a *choice* some members of his family are making to continue the feud, and it's perfectly reasonable to calmly discuss another option before the wedding arrives. Be sure to identify who the most vocal objector is (it's probably only one or two who really give a fuck), and make sure they're at the table when it's discussed. If you can win that person over, the rest should follow along, and ta-da! Everyone's happy and you've done your bit to eliminate fake Old World foolishness from our marvelous New Land.
But, yeah, don't push it if they insist on spreading ill will on their daughter's wedding day. Wear an inoffensive tartan and be thankful it's not you marrying into that particular family.
posted by mediareport at 7:09 AM on May 23, 2005
I'm with loquacious on this one; it would be easy to announce the presence of your preferred tartan as an important sign the feud is over, at least among those present, with best wishes for the peace to spread, etc. There's a *choice* some members of his family are making to continue the feud, and it's perfectly reasonable to calmly discuss another option before the wedding arrives. Be sure to identify who the most vocal objector is (it's probably only one or two who really give a fuck), and make sure they're at the table when it's discussed. If you can win that person over, the rest should follow along, and ta-da! Everyone's happy and you've done your bit to eliminate fake Old World foolishness from our marvelous New Land.
But, yeah, don't push it if they insist on spreading ill will on their daughter's wedding day. Wear an inoffensive tartan and be thankful it's not you marrying into that particular family.
posted by mediareport at 7:09 AM on May 23, 2005
By asking you to be best man, the groom obviously doesn't intend to carry on the feud, so I think his family is being a collective ass. That said, rent a kilt, your dad's tartan, if possible, or unaffiliated.
p.s. I think men look lovely in full Scots regalia.
posted by theora55 at 7:28 AM on May 23, 2005
p.s. I think men look lovely in full Scots regalia.
posted by theora55 at 7:28 AM on May 23, 2005
Response by poster: Thanks for the advice. I'm leaning towards jwells's solution- either a US tartan or plain black or green. Bonaldi's answer just got me off the hook as far as my mom's concerned, (I hope).
The weird thing is that most of the people making a fuss are in Scotland, except for the groom's mom, who's also fussing, so it's not completely a grasping for roots thing.
posted by small_ruminant at 9:34 AM on May 23, 2005
The weird thing is that most of the people making a fuss are in Scotland, except for the groom's mom, who's also fussing, so it's not completely a grasping for roots thing.
posted by small_ruminant at 9:34 AM on May 23, 2005
Response by poster: headspace- it's worse than that- the poor bride's getting a wedding full of bagpipes and she isn't even American. As if her poor family won't be bewildered enough just by their trip to the states!
posted by small_ruminant at 10:01 AM on May 23, 2005
posted by small_ruminant at 10:01 AM on May 23, 2005
Response by poster: Hey, it looks like California's got its own tartan (a Muir, actually).
posted by small_ruminant at 10:24 AM on May 23, 2005
posted by small_ruminant at 10:24 AM on May 23, 2005
I've got to say the thread title is one of the best I've ever seen on AskMeFi.
posted by kindall at 10:44 AM on May 23, 2005
posted by kindall at 10:44 AM on May 23, 2005
Don't do anything that might dent the Bride's big day. If wearing a kilt might do that, regardless of the tartan, then swallow your pride and wear a suit.
posted by Frasermoo at 11:05 AM on May 23, 2005
posted by Frasermoo at 11:05 AM on May 23, 2005
Well, there's always Utilikilts! Seriously, though, the day isn't about you (as others have opined). Do what the happy couple want you to do.
Oh, and I'd have to wear my mum's tartan; my father's a sassenach.
And another vote for best thread title.
posted by deborah at 11:21 AM on May 23, 2005
Oh, and I'd have to wear my mum's tartan; my father's a sassenach.
And another vote for best thread title.
posted by deborah at 11:21 AM on May 23, 2005
My advice: $450 will just about cover a lightweight kilt without any of the accessories you'll need, there are plenty of cheaper kilts around, but you don't want to look like you are wearing a tablecloth - if you rent for the day you can always lie and tell everyone it was the only tartan the shop had left in stock.
posted by Lanark at 12:04 PM on May 23, 2005
posted by Lanark at 12:04 PM on May 23, 2005
It would be inappropriate to allow your personal preferences to cause ill will or strife at someone elses wedding. Bare in mind the *man* part of "Best Man" and help make the day go smoothly, even if you're tempted not to.
Later, you can send all those old world fogeys nice pleased-to-meet-you notes, each one in an envelope with your moms tartan on it.
posted by Ken McE at 4:49 PM on May 23, 2005
Later, you can send all those old world fogeys nice pleased-to-meet-you notes, each one in an envelope with your moms tartan on it.
posted by Ken McE at 4:49 PM on May 23, 2005
If the relatives making the fuss about the tartan are Scottish then they ought to be ceremonially smacked by their own clan chief for bringing their clan into disrepute. I can only presume that the Campbell tartan is involved somewhere. The last real episode sparking off a clan feud between the Campbells and anyone else took place in 1752 with the Stewarts of Appin - the Appin murder. The real villains in the massacre of Glencoe (1692) were not the Campbells but the Dalrymples, who gave the orders. If people still think things which happened 250 - 300 years ago warrant making petty attacks on people for wearing another clan tartan, then they need their heads examined in the same way as the Northern Irish sash-wearing bigots who are still going on about 1690, King Billy and the battle of the Boyne.
Clan tartan-wearing is indeed predominantly a 19th century invention (with a very few exceptions) which makes this even more silly, but this is still very bad manners on the part of the groom's family. As the groom is presumably not to blame for having a bunch of yahoos in his family who are bringing Scotland (and their own clan) into disrepute, it would indeed be a face-saving compromise to adopt your paternal tartan. However I proudly wear my maternal tartan as practically the whole thing is a Victorian invention anyway and it's an additional bunch of sexist nonsense to claim that people should only wear their paternal tartans.
posted by Flitcraft at 5:52 PM on May 23, 2005
Clan tartan-wearing is indeed predominantly a 19th century invention (with a very few exceptions) which makes this even more silly, but this is still very bad manners on the part of the groom's family. As the groom is presumably not to blame for having a bunch of yahoos in his family who are bringing Scotland (and their own clan) into disrepute, it would indeed be a face-saving compromise to adopt your paternal tartan. However I proudly wear my maternal tartan as practically the whole thing is a Victorian invention anyway and it's an additional bunch of sexist nonsense to claim that people should only wear their paternal tartans.
posted by Flitcraft at 5:52 PM on May 23, 2005
I was in a wedding party where we rented kilts to have a matching-men set-up, as much as clan loyalty.
>Aye, be ye a Campbell, laddie, your friend a MacDonald (or spelling variant)? If so, heaven help you.
And indeed, this was the programme, I, a Campbell, attending a wedding of variation of McDonald.
*waves to caddis*
posted by philfromhavelock at 8:19 PM on May 23, 2005
>Aye, be ye a Campbell, laddie, your friend a MacDonald (or spelling variant)? If so, heaven help you.
And indeed, this was the programme, I, a Campbell, attending a wedding of variation of McDonald.
*waves to caddis*
posted by philfromhavelock at 8:19 PM on May 23, 2005
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posted by karmaville at 10:47 PM on May 22, 2005