How open are Hasidic Jews to non-Hasidic Jews?
June 7, 2011 8:22 PM Subscribe
How welcoming would Hasidic Jews be to non-Hasidic Jews, both as guests in a home and as guests at a shul?
I asked this on Yahoo Answers, but feel putting this to MeFi will yield better results. I'm doing a bit of research for a story and am wondering about a few hypothetical situations. I know that some Hasidic groups allow non-Hasids to join them, convert to Hasidism. But what about relationships between Hasids and non-Hasids? For example:
1) Would a Hasidic family have a non-Hasidic Jew over for dinner?
2) Would a non-Hasidic Jew be welcome in a Hasidic shul, if said non-Hasid were a friend (or possibly family member)?
3) What if a non-Hasidic Jew with a family wanted to convert to Hasidism and, say, his teenage children didn't want to convert? Would he be allowed into the community?
I asked this on Yahoo Answers, but feel putting this to MeFi will yield better results. I'm doing a bit of research for a story and am wondering about a few hypothetical situations. I know that some Hasidic groups allow non-Hasids to join them, convert to Hasidism. But what about relationships between Hasids and non-Hasids? For example:
1) Would a Hasidic family have a non-Hasidic Jew over for dinner?
2) Would a non-Hasidic Jew be welcome in a Hasidic shul, if said non-Hasid were a friend (or possibly family member)?
3) What if a non-Hasidic Jew with a family wanted to convert to Hasidism and, say, his teenage children didn't want to convert? Would he be allowed into the community?
oh, and
(1) Yes, though typically this would occur on shabbat, which means that the non-Hasidic Jew would probably be staying somewhere in the (assumed) Hasidic community
(2) Certainly, and this happens all the time. Jews from all different orthodox groups simply drop in to other shuls for (say) weekday prayer, and very little attention is paid, if any.
(3) as above, no formal conversion occurs, so this wouldn't pose much of a problem, though the person who wishes to become Hasidic could face a dicey social situation where others are slightly uncomfortable when discussing their children.
The above goes for mainstream Hasidism, nothing too crazy.
posted by milestogo at 8:43 PM on June 7, 2011
(1) Yes, though typically this would occur on shabbat, which means that the non-Hasidic Jew would probably be staying somewhere in the (assumed) Hasidic community
(2) Certainly, and this happens all the time. Jews from all different orthodox groups simply drop in to other shuls for (say) weekday prayer, and very little attention is paid, if any.
(3) as above, no formal conversion occurs, so this wouldn't pose much of a problem, though the person who wishes to become Hasidic could face a dicey social situation where others are slightly uncomfortable when discussing their children.
The above goes for mainstream Hasidism, nothing too crazy.
posted by milestogo at 8:43 PM on June 7, 2011
It's also important to remember that there are all kinds of different sects and groups under the Hasidic umbrella. What goes for the Satmars might not fly with the Belz.
If the person were Jewish, were not doing anything overtly contrary to the norms of the Hasidic community (i.e. noshing on a ham-and-cheese sandwich while wearing a low-cut shirt and mini-skirt), and expressed some level of interest, I think that most Hasidic groups would tolerate an outsider, especially if accompanied/introduced by someone within the community.
The Chabad-Lubavitch movement, of course, is insanely welcoming-- they're the ones trying to get you to daven in the mitzvah-mobile, hosting dinners for college students, etc. They have a self-defined role as emissaries and ambassadors. They are decidedly uninterested in converting non-Jews, however, and have pretty strict (and controversial) standards for who they consider to be a Jew.
I don't really know much about non-Jews joining Hasidic communities-- I mean, I know it happens, but I have no idea how one would go about doing it. You convert to Judaism, not a particular branch thereof. Whether the conversion would be recognized by the Hasidim is a whole other story-- it would have to be done under the supervision of an appropriate rabbi. I do know that recognized converts are required to be welcomed with open arms, and in fact enjoy a special spiritual status of righteousness, as they're pretty much clean-slated from the moment of their conversion. The same is true for non-observant or non-Hasidic Jews who choose to become Orthodox; they are called Baal Teshuvim, literally "masters of return," or those who have returned to G-d. This special status doesn't mean that it's easy to integrate into a community, and I think that, despite protestations to the contrary, many BTs and especially converts feel excluded and judged.
I have to disagree with milestogo; there are some specific things that one needs to do to enter into the community fully, and they would have to be done with the help, agreement, and supervision of a recognized rabbi.
posted by charmcityblues at 8:45 PM on June 7, 2011
If the person were Jewish, were not doing anything overtly contrary to the norms of the Hasidic community (i.e. noshing on a ham-and-cheese sandwich while wearing a low-cut shirt and mini-skirt), and expressed some level of interest, I think that most Hasidic groups would tolerate an outsider, especially if accompanied/introduced by someone within the community.
The Chabad-Lubavitch movement, of course, is insanely welcoming-- they're the ones trying to get you to daven in the mitzvah-mobile, hosting dinners for college students, etc. They have a self-defined role as emissaries and ambassadors. They are decidedly uninterested in converting non-Jews, however, and have pretty strict (and controversial) standards for who they consider to be a Jew.
I don't really know much about non-Jews joining Hasidic communities-- I mean, I know it happens, but I have no idea how one would go about doing it. You convert to Judaism, not a particular branch thereof. Whether the conversion would be recognized by the Hasidim is a whole other story-- it would have to be done under the supervision of an appropriate rabbi. I do know that recognized converts are required to be welcomed with open arms, and in fact enjoy a special spiritual status of righteousness, as they're pretty much clean-slated from the moment of their conversion. The same is true for non-observant or non-Hasidic Jews who choose to become Orthodox; they are called Baal Teshuvim, literally "masters of return," or those who have returned to G-d. This special status doesn't mean that it's easy to integrate into a community, and I think that, despite protestations to the contrary, many BTs and especially converts feel excluded and judged.
I have to disagree with milestogo; there are some specific things that one needs to do to enter into the community fully, and they would have to be done with the help, agreement, and supervision of a recognized rabbi.
posted by charmcityblues at 8:45 PM on June 7, 2011
Response by poster: Yes, sorry. I misused the word "convert" and meant "observe." Thanks for pointing that out, milestogo.
posted by Miss T.Horn at 8:45 PM on June 7, 2011
posted by Miss T.Horn at 8:45 PM on June 7, 2011
1): Yes. Chabad, for instance, is very keen on reaching out to unaffiliated and secular Jews and bringing them into Chassidut. I've met many Chabad rabbis who are equally welcoming of non-Jews who have a positive curiosity about Judaism. I'm a non-Jew, but I've only once been declined (with sufficient notice) a seat at a Shabbos dinner by a Chabad rabbi, and that was only because he had limited space and had to give priority to Jewish guests. And he invited me back for dinner after Shabbos.
2): Jews are Jews, and the Chassidic groups like Chabad or the NaNachs (Breslover Chassidim) just want Jews gathering together, period; it's called "Kiruv". There may be some more insular groups that don't get along well with others (e.g., the Neturei Karta), and personality conflicts may drive two groups apart. It can be quite heated, but think of it more of a far-right Republican vs. far-left Democrat kind of conflict (mind you, I'm not equating any group with a political view here). Yeah, they may have seriously divergent views, but they're all still Americans. Or in this case, yeah, they have their differences, but they're still Jews. You need a tenth for the minyan? Most Jews will (or at least acknowledge they should) put aside their differences for that. Yiddishkeit should trump everything. But as far as Mizrachi/Sephardi/Ethiopian communities go, I have no idea how they do or do not get along with others. I imagine it's similar: the official policy is to be friendly, but it probably varies in practice according to individual personalities.
3): The effects of family split like that would depends on the insularity of the community that family is in, but I'm sure any group would welcome new members. If the teenaged kids disagree, they should nonetheless respect their parent's decision: Honor thy Mother and Father. If they're bar/bat mitzvah, I would expect that they can do as they please as far as choosing a rabbi/Rebbe. If dad wants X but the kids want Y, I'm sure X will still let dad read torah or join the minyan. But he may face some social limitations: no real matchmaking options for his kids, for example.
posted by holterbarbour at 10:58 PM on June 7, 2011
2): Jews are Jews, and the Chassidic groups like Chabad or the NaNachs (Breslover Chassidim) just want Jews gathering together, period; it's called "Kiruv". There may be some more insular groups that don't get along well with others (e.g., the Neturei Karta), and personality conflicts may drive two groups apart. It can be quite heated, but think of it more of a far-right Republican vs. far-left Democrat kind of conflict (mind you, I'm not equating any group with a political view here). Yeah, they may have seriously divergent views, but they're all still Americans. Or in this case, yeah, they have their differences, but they're still Jews. You need a tenth for the minyan? Most Jews will (or at least acknowledge they should) put aside their differences for that. Yiddishkeit should trump everything. But as far as Mizrachi/Sephardi/Ethiopian communities go, I have no idea how they do or do not get along with others. I imagine it's similar: the official policy is to be friendly, but it probably varies in practice according to individual personalities.
3): The effects of family split like that would depends on the insularity of the community that family is in, but I'm sure any group would welcome new members. If the teenaged kids disagree, they should nonetheless respect their parent's decision: Honor thy Mother and Father. If they're bar/bat mitzvah, I would expect that they can do as they please as far as choosing a rabbi/Rebbe. If dad wants X but the kids want Y, I'm sure X will still let dad read torah or join the minyan. But he may face some social limitations: no real matchmaking options for his kids, for example.
posted by holterbarbour at 10:58 PM on June 7, 2011
I apologize if I'm being presumptuous, but a lot of people seem to confuse "hasidic" with observant or ultra-Orthodox. Hasidim are a subset of the ultra-Orthodox--there are ultra-Orthodox people who are not hasidim. Are you aware of that distinction? When you talk about "non-hasids," do you mean people who aren't Orthodox at all, or do you mean Lithuanian Jews/mitnagdim?
posted by needs more cowbell at 12:08 AM on June 8, 2011
posted by needs more cowbell at 12:08 AM on June 8, 2011
A non-Hasidic (possibly Reform? but maybe Conservative - definitely not Orthodox) friend of mine and his girlfriend (whose specific brand of Judaism I don't know, but considering he's dating her, she's probably not anything approaching ultra-orthodox) once went to some sort of event in a Hasidic home. I think it was a Shabbos dinner? He has this long elaborate story about it. I think it might have been a Chabad thing.
My take, as a goy who lives in a predominantly Hasidic neighborhood and knows a little more than the average non-Jew about this stuff, is the following:
1. Depends on the sect. Chabad Lubavitchers probably would. They're the ones who stand on the street corner asking random strangers, "Are you Jewish?" They seem to want me to come round for dinner, if I said yes to that question.
2. You might want to check out the documentary A Life Apart: Hasidism In America (was streaming on netflix for a while, too). At the very least, the film doesn't seem to have been made by Hasidic people, and it doesn't have a terribly pro-Hasidic angle. And yet they had access to Hasidic yeshivas, shuls and homes. If they could do it, I'm sure it can be done.
3. A Life Apart talks specifically about this sort of thing. I think in that case it's the children who converted and the parents who did not. But it's the same basic situation, and yeah, the non-Hasidic grandparents are right there at the Seder with everyone else, being a part of the family. In terms of a parent converting and having younger teenagers who aren't at the point of determining their own lives yet (younger than like 16-17 years old), I imagine it would be like any teenager from any religion whose parents joined an extremist sect. "My house, My rules", etc. The worst thing would be if you were a teenage girl, because you'd suddenly face a lot of pressure to get married very soon.
All of these rules are different for goyim. Satmar Hasids won't even make eye contact with me in the street, let alone speak to me voluntarily or invite me into their homes. Lubavitchers tend to be a little more polite, though again it's probably because I exist on a continuum of "might be Jewish" potential converts.
posted by Sara C. at 5:17 AM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
My take, as a goy who lives in a predominantly Hasidic neighborhood and knows a little more than the average non-Jew about this stuff, is the following:
1. Depends on the sect. Chabad Lubavitchers probably would. They're the ones who stand on the street corner asking random strangers, "Are you Jewish?" They seem to want me to come round for dinner, if I said yes to that question.
2. You might want to check out the documentary A Life Apart: Hasidism In America (was streaming on netflix for a while, too). At the very least, the film doesn't seem to have been made by Hasidic people, and it doesn't have a terribly pro-Hasidic angle. And yet they had access to Hasidic yeshivas, shuls and homes. If they could do it, I'm sure it can be done.
3. A Life Apart talks specifically about this sort of thing. I think in that case it's the children who converted and the parents who did not. But it's the same basic situation, and yeah, the non-Hasidic grandparents are right there at the Seder with everyone else, being a part of the family. In terms of a parent converting and having younger teenagers who aren't at the point of determining their own lives yet (younger than like 16-17 years old), I imagine it would be like any teenager from any religion whose parents joined an extremist sect. "My house, My rules", etc. The worst thing would be if you were a teenage girl, because you'd suddenly face a lot of pressure to get married very soon.
All of these rules are different for goyim. Satmar Hasids won't even make eye contact with me in the street, let alone speak to me voluntarily or invite me into their homes. Lubavitchers tend to be a little more polite, though again it's probably because I exist on a continuum of "might be Jewish" potential converts.
posted by Sara C. at 5:17 AM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
On point #1: I worked in a kosher kitchen in college (I'm not Jewish), and became friends with the Lubavitch guys who worked there, to the point of helping one of their wives out with childcare a few times on a Friday afternoon while the dad had a shift to work. I'd sometimes stay for dinner. Aside from them nicely offering me a long-sleeved shirt (I was wearing a sleeveless shirt because it was a warm day), I always felt pretty welcome to participate in any activity that didn't involve prayer. Non-Hasidic Jews working there seemed just as welcome if not more so, but I don't have one of them here to check that with.
posted by tchemgrrl at 5:33 AM on June 8, 2011
posted by tchemgrrl at 5:33 AM on June 8, 2011
I love how these questions inevitably end up being posted on Jewish holidays when actual traditional Jews won't be online!
My impression is that Chabad is welcoming, period, and that other sects are not. I imagine there would have to be a meaningful communal/personal connection (friend of a family member, introduction from a respected rebbe etc) for mingling to happen, even with other Jews, including Hasidic Jews from a different sect. (They don't even all approve of marrying out of their own particular sect).
But maybe after Shavuot (which ends Thursday night) someone with more experience than I have will be able to speak to this question.
posted by Salamandrous at 9:11 AM on June 8, 2011
My impression is that Chabad is welcoming, period, and that other sects are not. I imagine there would have to be a meaningful communal/personal connection (friend of a family member, introduction from a respected rebbe etc) for mingling to happen, even with other Jews, including Hasidic Jews from a different sect. (They don't even all approve of marrying out of their own particular sect).
But maybe after Shavuot (which ends Thursday night) someone with more experience than I have will be able to speak to this question.
posted by Salamandrous at 9:11 AM on June 8, 2011
Response by poster: In reply to "needs more cowbell," by "non-Hasids I suppose I was covering a huge swath of people, ranging from Orthodox Jews to Reform. That's pretty sweeping, maybe not the best or most precise way to set up the question.
I did assume that Lubavitchers would probably be the most welcoming.
These answers are fantastic, though. Thank you, everyone. And re: Salamandrous -- yes, it would be great to get some even more knowledgable voices in on this. Obviously I'm the least observant Jew ever, posting this question on Shavuot. Oops.
posted by Miss T.Horn at 9:46 AM on June 8, 2011
I did assume that Lubavitchers would probably be the most welcoming.
These answers are fantastic, though. Thank you, everyone. And re: Salamandrous -- yes, it would be great to get some even more knowledgable voices in on this. Obviously I'm the least observant Jew ever, posting this question on Shavuot. Oops.
posted by Miss T.Horn at 9:46 AM on June 8, 2011
I think it depends on the community. I grew up Orthodox in Baltimore, where there are hasidim but not the sort of hasidic enclaves that exist in NY or Israel. More hardcore isolationist people will obviously choose to live in those places with a larger community, but: hasidim and non-hasidic Orthodox Jews seemed to be pretty friendly with each other. This might be out of necessity because the community, despite having many, many shuls, isn't huge, and broadly speaking, they all share a basic world view. When I was growing up there was only one Orthodox girls' school. It wasn't hasidic but hasidic families sent their daughters there and some teachers might have been hasidic (this would likely not happen in NY or Israel). I'm pretty sure I've met people who pray at a particular shul because they like something about it, it's close by, they like the Rabbi, or similar things, even if they are/were not hasidic and the shul is.
posted by needs more cowbell at 2:21 PM on June 8, 2011
posted by needs more cowbell at 2:21 PM on June 8, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by milestogo at 8:40 PM on June 7, 2011