How to tell a client they're wrong?
June 7, 2011 6:37 AM   Subscribe

How to explain and persuade a client that their brilliant idea isn't?

Apologies, up-front, for the length...

I have a client for whom I maintain a website. It's a moderate-sized site and, while not cutting-edge by any means, is attractive and easy to navigate. In fact, her clients regularly compliment them on the website and its ease of use, volume of information, and attractiveness. Yay us!

Recently, though, my client got it into her head that a major section of the site needed re-done. I don't know where the idea came from, but she took it upon herself to build a prototype of what she wanted the section to look like...using Apple's Pages app, and all the special effects it provides.

Some of you can probably guess what her re-do looks like. For others, I'll try and give you a picture...Think about the most enthusiastic school newsletter you've ever seen. We're talking paragraphs of text where every other word is set in several different brightly-colored decorative fonts to emphasize excitement or importance.

The webpages in question also contain several dozen regularly-updated and amended biographies of married couples. The client's re-do has taken the pictures of each couple and given each image a different crop and aspect ratio, complete with various decorative bordering effects and drop-shadowing on each, making it near-impossible to standardize production of the photos. Currently, each biography photo is standardized to the same size and aspect, since couples are regularly added and removed from the listings each week.

None of these changes match the look or feel of the rest of the website, which my client says she is absolutely happy with and doesn't want to change. This new section re-design is going to stand-out like a very cheap sore-thumb. But, she's absolutely in-love with her idea, and I've not been able to break-through to her that this isn't going to work-out well. For instance, when I explain to her that the paragraphs full of decorative fonts and bright colors isn't an easy implementation, her solution is to simply make the live-text paragraphs in to large images! I'm aware, of course, of web fonts. Considering, though, her liberal use of different fonts, I'd be using a different font for every sixth or seventh word in a paragraph. And, that still avoids the main point that this is a horrible look for anything beyond an invite to a children's pool party.

I guess I'm asking how do you handle client ideas that, in your estimation, really jeopardize their public image? In my opinion, her desire for text littered with a dozen different decorative fonts, in rainbows of colors, is only going to serve to cheapen and degrade the very solid and positive reputation she's built over the years, thanks, in large part, to the hard work we've all done getting the website to where it is. I'm to the point where I'm having real issues doing any work on this project because, deep down, I just know it's wrong. I'm tying myself in knots and losing sleep over this. I've traded emails with her, trying to explain as politely as possible that her vision will be both technically difficult and not really in-keeping with the look of the rest of the website. So far, this just seems to not register, and I'm torn between my desire to please a client (and friend) and my desire (as a designer) to do what I believe to be in the best interest of the client's image and brand reputation. This is one of those moments that makes me simply want to disappear into the woods...

Hope me?
posted by Thorzdad to Computers & Internet (56 answers total) 8 users marked this as a favorite
 
It's not clear if you are a freelance or work for a small shop and interact with clients as well as design.

Fire her.

I'm guessing/hoping she's not your only client.
posted by TheBones at 6:43 AM on June 7, 2011


I guess the question you need to ask yourself is "Exactly how much do I need this client?" Because if your client wants you to do things you don't want to do, you can always fire them, and if they're asking you to do things that would hurt your reputation, firing them may not be a bad idea.

Physicians and lawyers do this. If a patient will not comply with his physician's orders or prescriptions, or show up for appointments, the physician can terminate the relationship. If a legal client will not cooperate in his own case, an lawyer can fire them. Neither professional really likes doing this, as it almost uniformly leaves the client worse off--and we don't get paid--but it can sometimes be the only way out of a bad situation.

But the clients that get fired are generally those clients that a professional can afford to fire. If this client represents a significant chunk of your revenue, you're going to have to be a little more cautious. Still, at some point you need to say something along the lines of:

"Look, you hired me to make you a good website. I've done that. You hired me because I know how to make good websites and you don't. I still know how to do that, and you still don't. Well, what you're asking me to do now is not good for your website. In fact, it's so bad for your website that I don't want it known that I had anything to do with it. So if this is really what you want to do, I have to interpret that as you wanting to run your own website. I'm sorry about that, but good luck to you. Let me know if you change your mind."
posted by valkyryn at 6:45 AM on June 7, 2011 [15 favorites]


If you can't fire her, Id be brutally honest and tell her that her implemented changes will look amateur. Because they will. And people like me will roll our eyes and judge her for it. Explain that lots of different fonts and colours look very unprofessional because the general internet public associate them with bad bebo pages and self-obsessed blogs with embedded music. And we hate those things.
posted by stillnocturnal at 6:50 AM on June 7, 2011 [1 favorite]


"Hey man, I'm sure you had fun being creative with this, but as your designer you are paying me to maintain not only your website but your public image. You keep being told that your website is great and easy to use, which encourages clients to use your business! Doing this will look wrong, make your website more likely to break; and, I will not implement it as this would be against my own personal code of design. If you choose to continue this, I regret that you'll have to get a new designer."

I rescued my friend, E, from another friend's half-hearted frame-ridden weird colour web page, and all of a sudden they dreamt up all sorts of things for the website for me to make! (augh!) So I feel a little qualified to comment. :)

Another friend, S, who works for E, and I were talking, and she said: "yeah, my mum said never work for friends, but I now know why! It's really hard to blow off a friend when they are unreasonable like it is when you just have a working relationship!"
posted by titanium_geek at 6:51 AM on June 7, 2011


I mean, don't make it seem like she has bad taste. Just that she should be aware of her market, which doesn't share her taste and has negative associations with this kind of site design
posted by stillnocturnal at 6:52 AM on June 7, 2011 [2 favorites]


I think the point you want to get across is that she is paying you for your expertise in what looks good, not in making blobs of color and text appear on screens exactly as she wishes. One is an interior decorator and the other is a genie in a bottle. Hiring an interior decorator, only to override their selections at every turn, is a waste of time and money, as the decorator merely becomes someone who procures fabrics and ottomans, then orders laborers about and signs invoices.

Take each individual thing and carefully (but gently) show that these are non-optimal. "This thing you want to do with the fonts, it is a common mistake. So common there is a name for it: Ransom Note Typography. Here, let's Google it. I didn't make it up." Maybe run her through the first two hundred instances of the ClientCopia site.
posted by adipocere at 6:54 AM on June 7, 2011 [3 favorites]


I'd strongly consider discussing this in person, or at least over the phone, rather than e-mail.

Alternatively, you could encourage your client to show their idea to some of their clients, or even suggest a little focus group (maybe to review the entire web site, with these potential changes as part of the review).

Also, rather than making it just "taste", you can find designs similar to hers (somehow) and compare those businesses to hers; chances are, they're less professional in general, and you can point out that these kinds of design elements will strongly associate her business with those kinds of entities, in a non-verbal way that web site visitors will be unable to consciously overcome.

Finally, it sounds like she really wants a creative outlet. Maybe you could suggest that she work on a paper newsletter, or that she use/honor/take advantage of her creative energy by actually enrolling in a design class.
posted by amtho at 6:58 AM on June 7, 2011 [8 favorites]


When a client asks for something stupid I tell them exactly why its stupid. I explain all the reasons why they shouldn't do x and if they still want to do it then I do it. Usually they accept my reasons and don't go ahead with it but some people just can't be dissuaded, especially if the affect on their business isn't quantifiable.
posted by missmagenta at 6:59 AM on June 7, 2011


She could ask her customers what they think of her redesign. Maybe implement an informal poll, or ask a core group of customers (that she trusts) to give honest feedback. Or implement some kind of focus group (do it yourselves or hire a marketing firm?).

It sounds like she doesn't trust your judgment, which is odd, given that she likes the rest of the site, which you presumably designed...
posted by SuperSquirrel at 7:11 AM on June 7, 2011 [2 favorites]


Sometimes logic just won't work, but here's a couple things I've regularly said that have helped explain this situation to clients:

- You want to emphasize a lot of different things because they are all important to you. But if EVERYTHING is the most important, then NOTHING seems important.

- You want (whatever font) on your website. But websites don't work that way! There are very few fonts you can use on a website and still have it look right to all visitors. So, we have to stick to (Arial, Times, Helvetica, etc.) [Yes, I know there are ways around that, but the client doesn't need to know.]
posted by The Deej at 7:12 AM on June 7, 2011


Alternatively, you could encourage your client to show their idea to some of their clients, or even suggest a little focus group (maybe to review the entire web site, with these potential changes as part of the review).

This is just begging to find out that she has two or three clients that either a) will not say anything negative to or about her or b) that she has a few clients with just as poor taste as she has.

Do not make this a voting situation. The design is bad. Tell her why.
posted by toomuchpete at 7:13 AM on June 7, 2011 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: It sounds like she doesn't trust your judgment, which is odd, given that she likes the rest of the site, which you presumably designed...

Well, she does trust my judgement. This is part of a quirk in her personality where she will occasionally latch onto some kernel of an idea and run with it to perdition's gates and back, utterly blind to anyone else's opinion of the idea. She feels inspired at these times.

She's a genuinely nice person to work for, until one of these "inspiration moments" comes along. Then things get...delicate.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:15 AM on June 7, 2011


when I explain to her that the paragraphs full of decorative fonts and bright colors isn't an easy implementation...

how do you handle client ideas that, in your estimation, really jeopardize their public image?

I've traded emails with her, trying to explain as politely as possible ...


It sounds like you're gesturing at relatively insignificant but easy-to-talk-about issues (difficulty of implementation) instead of the ones that are most important (poor design). You probably need to be much more direct. You can and should be tactful about it, but tact doesn't mean **please guess what I'm concerned about so I don't have to actually say it out loud.**

Say it out loud.
posted by jon1270 at 7:16 AM on June 7, 2011 [4 favorites]


Set aside her idea completely for now.

Ask her what the motivation was for the changes, and what problems she is trying to solve.

Propose an alternative solution.
posted by empath at 7:19 AM on June 7, 2011 [4 favorites]


Response by poster: As a bit of history, I went through a similar situation with her about a year ago, where she needed her point-of-contact brochure re-done. It was another "inspiration" of hers to now use cartoon characters, which was completely wrong. Completely condescending to the target audience. I went through the same back-and-forth with her on it. In the end, she just went elsewhere and had someone else do it. It was a small job, so I didn't lose much. Losing the website, though, would be bad.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:21 AM on June 7, 2011


You say that the client is enthusiastic about it, but are you sure that he or she isn't enthusiastic about the idea of the additional section just as much as the design? I would handle this by complimenting them on the idea and then in a matter-of-fact tone explain that you will get started right away making it harmonize with the current site design. You are the professional advisor and they paid you to put their idea into action -- use your judgement to execute it.

If they push back and expect you to use the day-glow amateur design then consider some of the professional push back options others have written here.
posted by dgran at 7:22 AM on June 7, 2011


Response by poster: Propose an alternative solution.
I'm working on it, but it doesn't include the "fun" font display, which, I'm afraid, is what she's really, really, really fixated on as being the whole appeal of the webpage.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:23 AM on June 7, 2011


Response by poster: You say that the client is enthusiastic about it, but are you sure that he or she isn't enthusiastic about the idea of the additional section just as much as the design?

Sorry. It's not an additional section. It's a redesign of an existing section. And it's her design she's totally in-love with.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:24 AM on June 7, 2011


Her brochure with cartoon characters, how does she feel about it now? Does she still think it was a good, effective idea, or does she regret it? If it's the former, you're probably stuck. If it's the latter, can you bring it up?
posted by jeather at 7:31 AM on June 7, 2011 [1 favorite]


Well, it seems taste is not something this client has in abundance. If you can design it without smearing your own reputation, then you do it. The client's image is their own. You can object, but you've already done that. But if you need this client's business, then you just do what you're asked to do.

If you're not comfortable with that, ask yourself if the client is worth the hit to your reputation.
posted by inturnaround at 7:32 AM on June 7, 2011


Is there anything you can save/incorporate in a professional way?

Maybe 'fun' font just as headers or as the image subtitles?

Any competitors of hers that have websites you can compare against?

And a client focus group would probably be a good idea.
posted by rich at 7:33 AM on June 7, 2011


I think you sit down with her and say, "Client, your ideas, in my professional estimation, really jeopardize your public image. In my opinion, your desire for text littered with a dozen different decorative fonts, in rainbows of colors, is only going to serve to cheapen and degrade the very solid and positive reputation you've built over the years, thanks, in large part, to the professional image you present through your website." And then you explain with specifics (difficulty of navigation and maintenance, looks like a teenager is running the site, not a professional, etc.), and maybe show examples of "good" design and "bad" design that is similar to what she wants.

And then you either say, "What you want is wrong for your business, will cost you money, and damage your reputation, but if you want to go ahead understanding that, I will do it for you under protest," or you say, "What you want is wrong for your business, will cost you money, will damage your reputation, and will damage my reputation. I feel so strongly that this is wrong that I simply cannot go ahead with it. I can't in good conscience help you damage your business and waste your money."

I've been on both ends of this conversation (client and professional) and as a client I've generally appreciated when the professional is straight with me, even if the pro says he'll have to withdraw. And sometimes my group has capitulated to the pro's expertise, and other times we've said, "No, this is key to the organization's mission, we have to go ahead with this." It's not a magic bullet. But it does impress us with the pro's professionalism and maintains a good relationship, even in cases where we may have to seek someone else.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:51 AM on June 7, 2011 [9 favorites]


Implementation is not the issue, it's just a technical hurdle to overcome (which you, as a competent professional, should have no problem doing). The problem is that the hurdle is on the road to shitsville.

The most important part of what's wrong with her idea is that it's hard to read and completely jarring to the eyes. There are plenty of independent sources that show that documents with more than two typefaces are confusing and make people top reading and look for a different way to get the same information. Similar things are true with non-standardized image formats.

Another thought is to show your client some good and bad websites, and walk her through what works and doesn't work from the perspective of readability and ease of use. When you frame it in the perspective of end user experience, it sometimes clicks better than just a designer's instinct to go "this is horrible!"
posted by Jon_Evil at 7:53 AM on June 7, 2011 [2 favorites]


Praise every idea they have as brilliant, nod sagely at their insight, agree that all their points are spot on and then do exactly what you wanted to do anyway. So long as what you produce is good and they can take the credit for it when it proves successful they'll forget that you haven't actually implemented any of their stupid suggestions. If they keep on then concede the principle but block them on the details - tell them what they want is really difficult or expensive because of technical jargon X, Y or Z. If they still won't let it drop then let them get on with it. Once they realise the time, money and disastrous consequences of implementing their lame brained schemes they'll come crawling back to you to turn things back to the way they were.
posted by joannemullen at 7:54 AM on June 7, 2011


It sounds like you need to just "rip the bandaid off" and be direct with her. Emphasize that you value her as a client and that if she values your expertise a a designer, she'll give give serious consideration to what your saying. Then tell her how and why her redesign is a Bad Idea.

It might cause a rift—I don't know—but you clearly need to get it over with.
posted by adamrice at 7:54 AM on June 7, 2011


No offence to the poster, but this is the worst advice in this thread, and some of the worst advice I've ever read on client management:

Praise every idea they have as brilliant, nod sagely at their insight, agree that all their points are spot on and then do exactly what you wanted to do anyway. So long as what you produce is good and they can take the credit for it when it proves successful they'll forget that you haven't actually implemented any of their stupid suggestions. If they keep on then concede the principle but block them on the details - tell them what they want is really difficult or expensive because of technical jargon X, Y or Z. If they still won't let it drop then let them get on with it. Once they realise the time, money and disastrous consequences of implementing their lame brained schemes they'll come crawling back to you to turn things back to the way they were.

You should do the exact opposite of pretty much everything in this paragraph. Tell the truth with your client when you disagree with them, but always have good reasons for your opinions. Be direct! Show them how what you want to do will be better for their audience (!) than what they want to do. Compromise where you feel you can. Don't ever lie about the technical details. You're guaranteed to eventually get caught out in a lie and your credibility will be completely shot with that client forever.

I start every project with a written questionnaire that my clients have to fill out themselves. We then go through several meetings refining their answers and agreeing on common premises. This sets me up so that I can always refer back to what we agreed up front. You should take a look at your own processes and think "how could I have avoided this situation altogether?"

I absolutely cringe at all those "the client is stupid" blogs and Tumblrs out there. If designers could swallow their arrogance and come at these issues from the perspective that the whole situation is almost always their own fault (for not managing expectations upfront), then client/designer difficulties would all but disappear.

Good luck!
posted by hamandcheese at 8:10 AM on June 7, 2011 [4 favorites]


You'll probably want to approach well prepared with a desire to help and educate on your discipline as a designer, and what that means for the wellbeing of her company. Perhaps gather a bunch of well regarded articles on the subject, pull the key points from them to illustrate "why" it's best practice to be consistent.
posted by samsara at 8:27 AM on June 7, 2011


tell them what they want is really difficult or expensive because of technical jargon X, Y or Z

This is a terrible idea.

For starters, because in the age of twitter or facebook, all it takes is someone saying something like "Couldn't get my awesome design idea done because the server doesn't have enough RAM. Sad!" to twitter and facebook for someone to recognize that as bullshit.

Second, because producing bullshit that isn't obviously bullshit on technical topics generally requires a high level of technical knowledge. Designers with that degree of knowledge exist, but they are rare. You're much more likely to produce a lie that any one with half an associates in CS is going to be able to immediately pinpoint as nonsense.
posted by toomuchpete at 8:28 AM on June 7, 2011 [2 favorites]


If you can't convince her to change, how about asking for the addition of "This page has been personally designed by (client's name)" either at the top or the bottom of the page?
posted by aroberge at 8:36 AM on June 7, 2011 [1 favorite]


There are plenty of viable options above already. I'd like to provide counters to a couple of bad ones:

Do not play chicken by giving (what you think is) an inflated estimate.
If you do this, keep a few spare relatives around to suddenly croak, because eventually someone is going to accept the estimate anyway. The extra money will not make it better.

Talking over your client's head until they shut up just makes you an asshole.
posted by Su at 8:37 AM on June 7, 2011


Can you say "I strongly think this is a bad idea and here's why: (outline reasons mentioned above)... can we wait a month, and then re-assess and see if you're still feeling as strongly about the re-design?"

Then maybe you can find a happy medium between what she wants and your vision. "I like how you cropped some of these images, maybe we can incorporate that, but I think it's important that we maintain the same headings and paragraph styles we've incorporated in the rest of the site"

You can send her a link to: Top 10 Mistakes in Web Design and let her know that Jakob Nielsen is one of the leading experts in the field.
Consistency is one of the most powerful usability principles: when things always behave the same, users don't have to worry about what will happen. Instead, they know what will happen based on earlier experience. Every time you release an apple over Sir Isaac Newton, it will drop on his head. That's good.

The more users' expectations prove right, the more they will feel in control of the system and the more they will like it. And the more the system breaks users' expectations, the more they will feel insecure. Oops, maybe if I let go of this apple, it will turn into a tomato and jump a mile into the sky.
He's talking more about the interface, I believe, but it applies to the general design too.
posted by backwards guitar at 9:01 AM on June 7, 2011 [2 favorites]


my desire to please a client (and friend)

How would you deal with the situation if the client were not also your friend? Do that.
posted by headnsouth at 9:09 AM on June 7, 2011


I have read here on metafilter that this kind of timecubesque webdesign is associated with a mental health problem. I'm sorry I can't find the comment in question, but it is easy to look at timecube and other very similar websites and then look at hers and make a point.

What that point will be is something you have to decide.
posted by CautionToTheWind at 9:21 AM on June 7, 2011


Create two dummy examples and show the difference: one with the integrated approach you now use and one with the desired changes. If she still really likes it her way, then you have a more difficult issue and perhaps showing the similarity between the desired changes and the school newsletter will help. You might enlist the help of a jury - perhaps the married couples themselves?

Your client needs a bit of hand-holding to get over this, that's all, but we are talking about a client and helping the client see things from the user's perspective is a lot better than saying no and making it an argument about whose vision is represented. That's a hard one for a consultant to win.
posted by jet_silver at 9:52 AM on June 7, 2011


No offence to the poster, but this is the worst advice in this thread, and some of the worst advice I've ever read on client management

That's because it's bureaucratic infighting advice, which requires two entrenched parties, and as a freelancer you are the least entrenched party you could possibly be.

Thorzdad, how did you approach the cartoon newsletter debacle? I think it's important to know what didn't work. Absent that knowledge, what I'd say is essentially "this looks really nice, but it doesn't look anything like the rest of the website. It's going to look like somebody else dropped another website into yours" in as much of a I-love-you-but-you-are-making-a-bad-decision tone as I could manage. Also, if she's not a lone entity, you should try to find somebody who's closer to her, and get their ear. If you can get a unified force saying no you might (maybe?) be able to head off a terrible idea like that. Sometimes that works.
posted by furiousthought at 9:55 AM on June 7, 2011


Stop talking about implementation, talk about the underlying goals of the site and of the requested change.

"[Her attempt at design] has taken the pictures of each couple and given each image a different crop and aspect ratio, complete with various decorative bordering effects and drop-shadowing on each, making it near-impossible to standardize production of the photos. Currently, each biography photo is standardized to the same size and aspect, since couples are regularly added and removed from the listings each week."

This quote makes me think she probably thinks the current design looks too plain and boring. Responding with stuff like, "We must make everything consistent for the sake of implementation," will just reinforce her belief that she's the one creating beauty and you're the one trying to create a boring gray cubicle farm.

Focus on you're trying to be "elegant and tasteful." You don't want circus colours at a wedding, for example.
posted by RobotHero at 9:58 AM on June 7, 2011


Response by poster: Thorzdad, how did you approach the cartoon newsletter debacle? I think it's important to know what didn't work.
I went with a "This isn't appropriate for the message or the intended audience" approach. Didn't work, obviously.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:01 AM on June 7, 2011


I've not worked in the web domain, but in video and motion graphics. What I've always done is drill down to figure out why the client made the decisions that they did. What are they trying to communicate: what problems are they trying to solve. Often times it's just that they are trying to solve problems that they don't know how to tackle (or even have). You should be able to listen, then think, and then create a better solution.

If you can address what the clients real issues and problems are, you can have them buying into solutions based on reasoning and design based solutions. This will only work if the client wants a designer, and not a button mashing robot.
posted by jade east at 10:06 AM on June 7, 2011 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: This quote makes me think she probably thinks the current design looks too plain and boring.

I don't think that's it. See...She does an occasional printed newsletter on her own, and she's gotten used to playing around in Pages, with no sense of restraint. She's bringing that experience to bear here. It's not that the current page is boring, per-se. It's just that it's not all splashy and thick with fonts and effects, like her Pages newsletter is.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:08 AM on June 7, 2011


Please accept my sympathies - I know this is hard, even though my experience with it goes only as far as bringing my husband a tea and rubbing his shoulders while he deals with such things (primarily in print). He has a client with a similar bent, one who always had dreams of becoming a copy writer/art director/graphic designer, yet ended up managing his dad's business and attempts to fulfill that thwarted career using my husband for his brain/hands (or, as was better said, "a button mashing robot"). And so my dear ends up trying to make colour preferences work, like "Use a Matisse-kinda indigo blue right there with kind of a magenta-fuchsia here", and fitting twenty words into what should be a line of five.

He does a few things to maintain some control, limit his frustration and give the client the creative input he so desperately needs (and as we've figured out, feels he's paying for). This may help more in the future, but if you proceed with some of her changes within your existing framework this time around, this is what has been proven to work around here:

First, when he contracts to do a job, he limits the number of changes to two. And not two with sub-sections either. More cost extra. This makes the client think about how much certain minor issues are worth to him, and he proofreads and sends copy more carefully than he used to. So, you could not exaggerate the cost, but cost out all of these changes and ask the client to get back to you after she's had time to justify the expense. Second, my husband offers three choices whenever he can: One that's obviously stupid, one that's tolerable, and the one that's obviously so right you can't miss it. This makes the client feel like he's the genius and has great taste. So, you can do exactly what she said, a compromise, and your version of what she wants. Not what you've been doing or what you know is right - but interpreting what she's trying to do and making it work. That should be built into your estimate. Third, my husband leaves one obvious thing that the client can correct (usually a typo the client made, and he keeps the communications to prove it) in a final proof to feel like he's made an important contribution and to let him feel superior to the Mac Monkey.

What I get is that your client, and my husband's, think that your job is fun and easy and that they could do it if only they had the ability. And programs such as she uses give them false reinforcement of that, and it is indeed, too bad. But, when I used to sell jewellery, my job wasn't so much to sell them what they walked in the store and told me they wanted, it was to sell them what I could see that they wanted and would be happy with in the long run. That's why I got the big bucks. Same with you. So, if you're not willing to manage your client's artistic endeavors along with the website, it may be time to start detaching. When my husband starts to get his back up and tell his client, "No, this won't work and if you want it from me I can provide X for the agreed-upon amount, or else it's Y", the client usually does toe the line. My husband doesn't put his name on the work he isn't proud of, and he always remembers that it's the client's business, not his in the end and that's how he leaves his ego out of it.

When all else fails, my co-workers and I had a mantra at a hard job with a weird boss long ago: "Mine is not to question why, mine is just to do and try." Good luck, whatever you choose!
posted by peagood at 10:21 AM on June 7, 2011


Reduce the conflict. Ask her what she wants to accomplish with the changes. Maybe she wants the site design to have more energy, feel more vibrant. Ask her to do part of the work, in order to save money, request that she find some examples. Explain that some of her choices will be expensive to implement and maintain, and ask her to pick which style she likes best. Keep emphasizing that site changes can affect users unpredictably, and encourage her to make 1 change at a time.
posted by theora55 at 10:36 AM on June 7, 2011


"It's not that the current page is boring, per-se."

I didn't say it was boring. I said she probably sees it as boring. If everything she believed was something you had no objections to, we wouldn't be here.
posted by RobotHero at 10:59 AM on June 7, 2011


Ask her for a list of the most successful and well regarded companies in her industry, and then sit down with her and go through their websites. Point out that none of them use splashy silly fonts (hopefully this is true), because it's not professional. Hopefully you can also find an example of a not-well-regarded company in her industry that does use horrible web design practices.

I've been where you are with a non-profit. This person wanted a flash slideshow of their personal vacation photos on the main page of the site. This taught me three things: 1) never work for free, 2) never work for a friend, 3) it's okay to say no.
posted by desjardins at 11:43 AM on June 7, 2011


Response by poster: Ask her for a list of the most successful and well regarded companies in her industry...
That would be them. They're the industry leader in Indiana, and the one all the others watch.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:58 PM on June 7, 2011


Is there any way that you could get some other people to give her opinions on this? People she respects? People who will also say, "This is a real turnoff for me and would make me not want to use your website?" Can you get her clients to chime in on this?

Other than that, if she's absolutely determined to do it (and sounds like from the previous example that she probably is), I'd go with what Eyebrows McGee said.

"What you want is wrong for your business, will cost you money, and damage your reputation, but if you want to go ahead understanding that, I will do it for you under protest," or you say, "What you want is wrong for your business, will cost you money, will damage your reputation, and will damage my reputation. I feel so strongly that this is wrong that I simply cannot go ahead with it. I can't in good conscience help you damage your business and waste your money."

But if you really can't afford to lose her business, I think you are probably going to need to suck it up, make the eyesore, and then wait for the complaints to come in instead of compliments. Some people just have to learn the hard way, y'know?
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:59 PM on June 7, 2011


Lots of good comments up there. I'll add that I've seen this type of conflict arise with a fortune 500 company and a top-tier design firm. It happens.

The best account manager I've ever worked with responded by taking a step back and talking with the client about the type of relationship she wanted to have with our creative team, rather than focusing on the specific project that was going nuclear.

She told the client (I'm paraphrasing here): "It's ok to admit if you just want people who will quickly and competently execute exactly what you have in mind. That's a completely valid business approach and a very common reason for outsourcing work.

But that's not why you chose our firm. We are experts in developing strategies and using digital tools to best communicate your messages. We recognize you as the experts on your business and [in this case] your audience, and our partnership with you helps both of us to achieve what neither of us could do alone.

Of course we recognize that we're not going to nail the work right away or by ourselves without collaboration with and approvals from you, but we're not just going to do what you want because you say so either; that's not a relationship we're comfortable with.

And if that's the sort of relationship you're looking for, you're over-paying for the service by having top strategists and designers work on your projects."

I could've kissed that account manager that day.

She said it calmly -- these are business decisions, not emotional ones -- and left it up to the client to decide. They ultimately ended up dividing their projects between two firms, using us for strategic (better) work and a more implementation-oriented shop for work that was all about execution. Win-win.

The whole spiel might not apply to you or to this situation, and you mentioned you may not want to give up the work either way because of the effect on your bottom line.

You might consider the question yourself: what kind of business do you want to be? Knowing the answer ahead of time can help you structure your offerings to clients. Maybe you hire and supervise less expensive subcontractors (think college students, for instance) to do implementation work, and keep the more strategic work for yourself. Maybe you structure your portfolio to showcase your design work separately from your implementation work, and try to balance the types of projects you take on at any given time. There are ways to run your business so that this type of conflict won't keep you up at night, just approach it as a business design challenge and be creative with your solutions.

Food for thought.
posted by nadise at 1:19 PM on June 7, 2011 [14 favorites]


If you do decide to implement her design, make sure you price it appropriately for the extra work. AND put a price in the contract for what it will take to put it back to normal. And I like the idea of tagging it "specially designed by client " at least in the comments if not on the site itself. Best of luck to you.
posted by CathyG at 1:46 PM on June 7, 2011


Have you gotten together with her and asked her why, point by point, she made each change? You've dismissed the idea that she sees the website as boring, so what is it she's trying to improve? Knowing this might help you "translate" her design ideas into a professional implementation that she's happy with.

Of course, that's a huge investment of time and energy for you, and this service should be priced accordingly.
posted by lesli212 at 4:16 PM on June 7, 2011


Look up some resources about typography (as in good design typography) there are people who are obsessed with the beauty, absolute beauty of fonts. Maybe you could design an alternative, with less font changes, which still looks dynamic typographically, as opposed to the crazy fonts she is playing with.

What does she want to emphasise? You need to sit down and talk to the client about what they actually want, what they are trying to acheive. And then explain how the crazy fonts isn't going to help with that.

(I'd love to see the site, though I realise for confidentiality reasons you probably don't want to share!)
posted by titanium_geek at 8:13 PM on June 7, 2011


This is probably definitely too long, but I could only knock out this first draft. I'd probably have this down to all of about 10 sentences. Realize that your client might already have some 'quality' doubts to you - and may be ready to ignore you (because, you know, you were wrong before - look how much money the client saved to get exactly what they wanted with someone else with the print material you didn't do!)

...and This is probably a very tough stance to take.

In the end you have to decide whether or not you really want this client's money knowing full well that you may end up doing something you don't think is the “right thing to do.” This is why people are suggesting you fire the client.

Client “these are the really cool changes I designed myself.”

You “Client, I really enjoye our business relationship so far. I think you're great at what you do. You hire me, not because I'm a code monkey, but hopefully because you respect what I do.

Every professional design technique I have tells me that this may be a mistake. This is probably very difficult to hear for you. I'm not one of your employees, I'm an outside contractor. You're probably used to people just saying yes. I'm more than willing to talk to you about what you feel fails with your the existing website–and go as far as to improve based on what you feel the failings are that drove you to this hard work.

But you've built a composition using a piece of software that is meant to make novices feel good about the quality of their work. It's not really a substitute for good graphic design nor was it ever meant for web design.

I want your business, Again, I respect what you do–but you haven't been through the process that I went through professionally, of having your work critiqued on a regular basis; I have a thicker skin than you do about when I do a design and somebody critiques it. It may be hard for you to hear, and just based on this conversation, you may end up going to somebody else–who'll say yes to you and provide an inferior job–worse yet, actually doing things exactly as you tell them.

The idea of good design, which you hire me to do, is to provide you something that helps you realize your vision–not just re-create what you've done somewhere else. If you feel it's the latter, perhaps I have a misunderstanding of what our relationship is.

As I said, it's always difficult to have this conversation with any client - I want to respect what your wishes are; but I have to mention when a client leads the work down a path that I'm uncomfortable putting my name on - I see what I do as craft; I care about the finished work, I care that you're happy as a client. If I "get it right" - you're happy and rave.

But, If I do this as you want it, and it costs you a large number of hours and money to implement (because of technical reasons) or causes you to lose business - either way, I'm to blame.

Now that you've heard me out, I'm happy to do the work exactly as you want - but I'd rather see us discuss what you think is wrong and help me help you get your work online in the most attractive AND functional way possible."
posted by filmgeek at 8:27 PM on June 7, 2011


You know, if you don't want to loose the business and she has the budget, and you've tried all other tactics, I'd do it with the understanding that you will then A/B test it. It is super cheap and easy to do these days. Then the two of you can look at the stats. Look at the bounce rate and look at the click rate on whatever call or calls to action there are and let the metrics tell her that her ideas suck.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:41 PM on June 7, 2011


Why do you care if she screws up her own website? Is your name on it? It's her website and she can do with it what she wants. Maybe you should readjust your feelings of ownership.

Now, if this affects your professional reputation, I suppose that's a different story. I don't know much about the industry, although it would seem weird to me if making the client happy weren't one of the most important things you can do.
posted by J. Wilson at 5:19 AM on June 8, 2011


J. Wilson: it would seem weird to me if making the client happy weren't one of the most important things you can do

OK then web design is weird because making the client happy is often the worst thing you can do.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:48 AM on June 8, 2011


Why do you care if she screws up her own website? Is your name on it?
Actually, yes.

Directly (sometimes): Some designers put a little identifying bug in site footers, credits in source code, etc. or may simply get attached to the site by word of mouth.

Indirectly: You show prior work in a portfolio in order to get more work. If you put something in there you know is crap, you don't really get to say "the client made me do it" for several reasons that all basically make you look incompetent. Yes, you can choose not to show a project, but there's only so many times you can do that before you don't have a portfolio to show.
Maybe you should readjust your feelings of ownership.
While some designers do develop an overgrown sense of ownership over client projects, that's not what I see here. The question is about the client's suggestion actually being bad, not that it wasn't Thorzdad's idea, say. If you haven't already, you should (re-)read nadise's comment.
posted by Su at 2:47 AM on June 9, 2011


I don't know much about the industry

This seems like a really good reason to not offer advice on working in the industry.
posted by toomuchpete at 12:14 PM on June 13, 2011


I came across this, and thought of your question here. I also wondered what you chose to do?
posted by peagood at 3:31 PM on August 28, 2011


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