What is the path to afterlife like (in the Christian religion) for pre-Jesus individuals?
May 31, 2011 2:23 PM Subscribe
What is the path to afterlife like (in the Christian religion) for pre-Jesus individuals? As in Homo gautengensis up through Julius Caesar.
Does the resurrection of the dead factor in somehow?
In Dante's Inferno, these folks make up the first Circle of Hell (Limbo).
posted by mkultra at 2:32 PM on May 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by mkultra at 2:32 PM on May 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
In Dante's Divine Comedy, he treats this problem: theres a top-most circle of Hell called Limbo. Good people who weren't baptized end up there. In Dante's conception it's not just Old Testament figures and unbaptized babies who are sent there but also Greek and Roman poets and philosophers and Muslim philosophers and heroes. As per signalnine, the Old Testament figures there, starting with Adam, were taken up fto Paradise by Jesus when he descended into Hell after the crucifixion.
posted by Paquda at 2:35 PM on May 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Paquda at 2:35 PM on May 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
Though for Dante, another part of the answer to your question would be: there's no path to Paradise for most pre-Jesus individuals. Vergil, the main character of the poem, clearly loved and admired by the narrator, is portrayed as tragically unable to ever get beyond Limbo because he didn't have the benefit of the Christian faith.
posted by Paquda at 2:38 PM on May 31, 2011
posted by Paquda at 2:38 PM on May 31, 2011
Response by poster: signalnine - how does jesus define "good" during the "harrowing of hell"?
posted by steinwald at 2:41 PM on May 31, 2011
posted by steinwald at 2:41 PM on May 31, 2011
Best answer: That's a broad question with different answers for different sects as well as history.
Well, for starters most Christians are young earth creationists, which means they think the world is somewhere around 6,000 years old - so they're probably not going to recognize Homo gautengensis or the like as being real or human. Most Christians reject theories of evolution.
But as far as Moses et al go? It's actually a tough question, and I don't think there is one authoritative answer. Most think that these individual's relationship to God worked differently then post-Jesus, i.e. you didn't have to go through Jesus ('no one gets to the father except through me') before Jesus came to the earth. So if you believed in the God of the old testament, and believed in the prophecy of a savior, then you were probably all set.
There is, at least in the stories, a different emphasis on 'goodness' as well, goodness meaning following the commandments, essentially, and God did a lot of testing people on this front, e.g. Abraham, Job, Jacob. This goodness was sufficient to get you into heaven.
But also keep in mind that Hell - and indeed Satan - are loose constructions based on various disparate passages, and the notion modern day Christians have of these things is nothing like what the theology of early Judaism would have been like.
Of course, the question of, say, Romans existing shortly after Jesus' death, before Paul had really codified the following into a religion, who had never heard of Jesus, is an interesting one as well (you could extrapolate modern day examples: what about primitive tribes who are never visited by a missionary? Do they go to hell?) Most Christian sects I've interacted with hold some variation on the idea that you have to have been exposed to the Truth (Christianity) and from there it's your responsibility, i.e. babies go to heaven, etc.
Fuzzy? You bet, but it's Christianity, so that's sorta par for the course.
posted by Lutoslawski at 2:42 PM on May 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
Well, for starters most Christians are young earth creationists, which means they think the world is somewhere around 6,000 years old - so they're probably not going to recognize Homo gautengensis or the like as being real or human. Most Christians reject theories of evolution.
But as far as Moses et al go? It's actually a tough question, and I don't think there is one authoritative answer. Most think that these individual's relationship to God worked differently then post-Jesus, i.e. you didn't have to go through Jesus ('no one gets to the father except through me') before Jesus came to the earth. So if you believed in the God of the old testament, and believed in the prophecy of a savior, then you were probably all set.
There is, at least in the stories, a different emphasis on 'goodness' as well, goodness meaning following the commandments, essentially, and God did a lot of testing people on this front, e.g. Abraham, Job, Jacob. This goodness was sufficient to get you into heaven.
But also keep in mind that Hell - and indeed Satan - are loose constructions based on various disparate passages, and the notion modern day Christians have of these things is nothing like what the theology of early Judaism would have been like.
Of course, the question of, say, Romans existing shortly after Jesus' death, before Paul had really codified the following into a religion, who had never heard of Jesus, is an interesting one as well (you could extrapolate modern day examples: what about primitive tribes who are never visited by a missionary? Do they go to hell?) Most Christian sects I've interacted with hold some variation on the idea that you have to have been exposed to the Truth (Christianity) and from there it's your responsibility, i.e. babies go to heaven, etc.
Fuzzy? You bet, but it's Christianity, so that's sorta par for the course.
posted by Lutoslawski at 2:42 PM on May 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
I should say that my comment is regarding modern day protestantism primarily.
posted by Lutoslawski at 2:43 PM on May 31, 2011
posted by Lutoslawski at 2:43 PM on May 31, 2011
Ah yes: the Bosom of Abraham. It's my understanding that most Christian folks these days use this pretty much to mean heaven, and less of a purgatory type situation, which is probably closer to it's original meaning.
posted by Lutoslawski at 2:48 PM on May 31, 2011
posted by Lutoslawski at 2:48 PM on May 31, 2011
Best answer: As far as I can tell (from reading the Bible cover-to-cover plus commentaries), there is no direct Biblical answer to this question. Like all things, every Christian sect (and, I suspect, every Christian thinker) will have a different answer based on their personal conception of God and Jesus's sacrifice.
John Calvin, for example, taught "Unconditional Election"
Well, for starters most Christians are young earth creationists
Citation, please - while about 75% of Americans identify as Christian, only about 40% of Americans believe in some form of young-earth or young-humanity creationism (depending on the poll).
posted by muddgirl at 3:00 PM on May 31, 2011 [3 favorites]
John Calvin, for example, taught "Unconditional Election"
This is the concept of predestination: that God has divided humanity into two groups. One group is "the elected." It includes all those whom God has chosen to make knowledgeable about himself. The rest will remain ignorant of God, and the Gospel. They are damned and will spend eternity in Hell without any hope of mercy or cessation of the extreme tortures. God made this selection before the universe was created, and thus before any humans existed. The ground or grounds that God uses to select the lucky few is unknown. What is known is that it is not through any good works on the part of the individual. It is not that he extends knowledge to some in order to find out who will accept salvation and who will not.Added to this is the concept of "Limited Grace
This stands for "Limited atonement" or "Particular Redemption." This is the belief that Jesus did not die to save all humans. He only died for the sake of specific sins of those sinners who are saved.In other words, if you were picked to be saved then you will go to heaven. If you weren't then you will go to hell. No one knows for sure what the basis for the selection was/is (but we sure do like to point fingers at those who are presumably unsaved!) There's no real reason why pre-Christian humanity would be exempt from this process. If Calvin had an answer as to what happened to the elect before Jesus died on the cross, I don't know what it is.
Well, for starters most Christians are young earth creationists
Citation, please - while about 75% of Americans identify as Christian, only about 40% of Americans believe in some form of young-earth or young-humanity creationism (depending on the poll).
posted by muddgirl at 3:00 PM on May 31, 2011 [3 favorites]
The theme of covenant is very important in understanding the Scriptures. Since it is in this framework the Scripture itself assumes in identifying God's people throughout the ages.
In Reformed theology (which is the historic school of Luther, Calvin, Augustine) God the Father covenanted with Christ from the beginning of time to save and redeem a people for himself. After Adam fell in Genesis 3, the "proto" Gospel is proclaimed to Adam in Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
This "he" is understood by protestants to refer to the Messiah who would redeem the God's people. Satan, the serpent, would strike his heel, but ultimately the Messiah would crush his head.
We see in the Flood narrative (which both the author of Hebrews and Peter affirm as historical) the same pattern of that of the creation narrative: there is mass confusion, and darkness, God wipes the 'earth' of all life, and creates anew, and covenanting anew with Noah (Genesis 9:9)
This covenant is made more clear to Abraham in Genesis 15, where God uses the same format of an Ancient Mesopotamian Covenant ratification ceremony and swears by Himself saying to Abraham, "I will be your God, and you will be my people". This is the covenant of Grace which runs through the Old and New Testaments. It is fully fulfilled in Christ since it is Christ who is the perfect Israel, succeeding in every part where the corporate Israel failed. So it is in this sense that the Mosaic Covenant which marked Israel is fulfilled and "fades away" (as the author of Hebrews puts it) since it's "glory is being replaced by a new glory" (2 Cor 3), and that glory is the New Covenant fulfilled in Christ.
Where is all this leading? Well, Paul has to explain to the Jews in Romans 9 and Galatians 4-5 that it is not the Physical Offspring of Abraham who are God's but it is the children of the promise. It is the spiritual descendants of Abraham, those who believe in the promise given to Abraham/Noah/Adam (which was fulfilled in Christ) who are justified before a Holy God.
tl;dr Those pre-Jesus were saved the same way Christians are: by believing in the promised redeemer who would come to "crush the serpent's head (Gen 3:15)" This revelation is made more clear as God's plan of redemption is made more explicit through the scriptures.
posted by yoyoceramic at 3:06 PM on May 31, 2011 [3 favorites]
In Reformed theology (which is the historic school of Luther, Calvin, Augustine) God the Father covenanted with Christ from the beginning of time to save and redeem a people for himself. After Adam fell in Genesis 3, the "proto" Gospel is proclaimed to Adam in Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
This "he" is understood by protestants to refer to the Messiah who would redeem the God's people. Satan, the serpent, would strike his heel, but ultimately the Messiah would crush his head.
We see in the Flood narrative (which both the author of Hebrews and Peter affirm as historical) the same pattern of that of the creation narrative: there is mass confusion, and darkness, God wipes the 'earth' of all life, and creates anew, and covenanting anew with Noah (Genesis 9:9)
This covenant is made more clear to Abraham in Genesis 15, where God uses the same format of an Ancient Mesopotamian Covenant ratification ceremony and swears by Himself saying to Abraham, "I will be your God, and you will be my people". This is the covenant of Grace which runs through the Old and New Testaments. It is fully fulfilled in Christ since it is Christ who is the perfect Israel, succeeding in every part where the corporate Israel failed. So it is in this sense that the Mosaic Covenant which marked Israel is fulfilled and "fades away" (as the author of Hebrews puts it) since it's "glory is being replaced by a new glory" (2 Cor 3), and that glory is the New Covenant fulfilled in Christ.
Where is all this leading? Well, Paul has to explain to the Jews in Romans 9 and Galatians 4-5 that it is not the Physical Offspring of Abraham who are God's but it is the children of the promise. It is the spiritual descendants of Abraham, those who believe in the promise given to Abraham/Noah/Adam (which was fulfilled in Christ) who are justified before a Holy God.
tl;dr Those pre-Jesus were saved the same way Christians are: by believing in the promised redeemer who would come to "crush the serpent's head (Gen 3:15)" This revelation is made more clear as God's plan of redemption is made more explicit through the scriptures.
posted by yoyoceramic at 3:06 PM on May 31, 2011 [3 favorites]
Well, for starters most Christians are young earth creationists
Citation, please - while about 75% of Americans identify as Christian, only about 40% of Americans believe in some form of young-earth or young-humanity creationism (depending on the poll).
Unless I'm totally retarded at math, that still means most Christians are young earth creationists, no? I suppose that depends on how many of the young earth creationists were Christians in the poll. So I suppose the conclusion is: inconclusive.
posted by Lutoslawski at 3:17 PM on May 31, 2011
Citation, please - while about 75% of Americans identify as Christian, only about 40% of Americans believe in some form of young-earth or young-humanity creationism (depending on the poll).
Unless I'm totally retarded at math, that still means most Christians are young earth creationists, no? I suppose that depends on how many of the young earth creationists were Christians in the poll. So I suppose the conclusion is: inconclusive.
posted by Lutoslawski at 3:17 PM on May 31, 2011
Well, if you'll count Mormons as Christians, they get the exact same opportunities as anyone who doesn't accept Christ in their lifetime. There's no material difference, for these purposes, between King Tut and my Jewish great-grandfather, in LDS theology.
(note: on about forty-eight different levels, Mormons disagree with the majority of "mainstream" Christianity on the subject of what it means to have not been exposed to the Gospel, and even whether or not anyone was exposed to the Gospel prior to Christ teaching in the middle east in his lifetime; there are a boatload of people who have no need for proxy baptism and post-death instruction in LDS theology that would under a strict "before the Christian era" viewpoint.)
posted by SMPA at 3:17 PM on May 31, 2011
(note: on about forty-eight different levels, Mormons disagree with the majority of "mainstream" Christianity on the subject of what it means to have not been exposed to the Gospel, and even whether or not anyone was exposed to the Gospel prior to Christ teaching in the middle east in his lifetime; there are a boatload of people who have no need for proxy baptism and post-death instruction in LDS theology that would under a strict "before the Christian era" viewpoint.)
posted by SMPA at 3:17 PM on May 31, 2011
Unless I'm totally retarded at math, that still means most Christians are young earth creationists, no? I suppose that depends on how many of the young earth creationists were Christians in the poll. So I suppose the conclusion is: inconclusive.
No, it means that about 50% of Americans are some form of either young-earth creationist or young-humanity creationist (ie the earth is older, but humans were created recently - note that the Gallup poll used for the 40% number only asks about human creation, not Earth's creation). So my verdict is: No, "most" Christians are not YEC.
posted by muddgirl at 3:27 PM on May 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
No, it means that about 50% of Americans are some form of either young-earth creationist or young-humanity creationist (ie the earth is older, but humans were created recently - note that the Gallup poll used for the 40% number only asks about human creation, not Earth's creation). So my verdict is: No, "most" Christians are not YEC.
posted by muddgirl at 3:27 PM on May 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
The Gallup question is apparently
posted by muddgirl at 3:30 PM on May 31, 2011
God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so.IE, you can still believe in evolution of all animals except man (and yes, those Christians exist) and answer affirmative to this question.
posted by muddgirl at 3:30 PM on May 31, 2011
Galatians 3:6, quoting the OT if I recall correctly:
"Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Plainly what that means, is that Abraham believed and acted on what God told him. Now, God's revelation was progressive. If you look carefully at Scripture Abraham and the prophets spoke of the One who was to come. But to make things simple: People are responsible for whatever level of revelation they are given.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:33 PM on May 31, 2011
"Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Plainly what that means, is that Abraham believed and acted on what God told him. Now, God's revelation was progressive. If you look carefully at Scripture Abraham and the prophets spoke of the One who was to come. But to make things simple: People are responsible for whatever level of revelation they are given.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:33 PM on May 31, 2011
The dispute about numbers seems to ignore the simple fact that there are many Christians outside of the US. According to this count Catholics make up about just over half of worldwide Christians. (Feel free to verify my napkin math.)
Since the Catholic church (not to mention other sects) certainly does not subscribe to young earth creationism it would render the statement "most Christians believe in YEC" false.
posted by oddman at 3:56 PM on May 31, 2011 [5 favorites]
Since the Catholic church (not to mention other sects) certainly does not subscribe to young earth creationism it would render the statement "most Christians believe in YEC" false.
posted by oddman at 3:56 PM on May 31, 2011 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Romans 2:14-16 may be relevant to the question. Here it is in the Message paraphrase:
When outsiders who have never heard of God's law follow it more or less by instinct, they confirm its truth by their obedience. They show that God's law is not something alien, imposed on us from without, but woven into the very fabric of our creation. There is something deep within them that echoes God's yes and no, right and wrong. Their response to God's yes and no will become public knowledge on the day God makes his final decision about every man and woman. The Message from God that I proclaim through Jesus Christ takes into account all these differences.
That seems to imply there's a chance for everyone, although it's a longshot for sure.
posted by lazydog at 3:56 PM on May 31, 2011
When outsiders who have never heard of God's law follow it more or less by instinct, they confirm its truth by their obedience. They show that God's law is not something alien, imposed on us from without, but woven into the very fabric of our creation. There is something deep within them that echoes God's yes and no, right and wrong. Their response to God's yes and no will become public knowledge on the day God makes his final decision about every man and woman. The Message from God that I proclaim through Jesus Christ takes into account all these differences.
That seems to imply there's a chance for everyone, although it's a longshot for sure.
posted by lazydog at 3:56 PM on May 31, 2011
Ah, whatever did happen to Purgatory? Wasn't there a few acres set aside for good, atheist folk and other infidels? And their unicorns? I can't keep up with christianity.
The Mormons side step around it conveniently, and have Mother Theresa enjoying coffee with Hitler. All sinners are equivalent and all post-Jesus folk are saved.
posted by FauxScot at 4:07 PM on May 31, 2011
The Mormons side step around it conveniently, and have Mother Theresa enjoying coffee with Hitler. All sinners are equivalent and all post-Jesus folk are saved.
posted by FauxScot at 4:07 PM on May 31, 2011
Best answer: Well you mention resurrection in your question and you are on the right path. It is the hope of resurrection and everlasting life.
Pre-Christians such as Abraham and Job are said to have hoped in the resurrection of the dead (Hebrew 11:17-19; Job 4:14,15). Daniel was told he would "stand up for [his] lot" in the time of the end. Jesus refers to it as "the resurrection of the righteous ones" (Luke 4:14) and as Alia mentions, faith is counted as righteousness.
Those faithful to God had their names written in "the book of remembrance" or "the book of life":At that time those in fear of Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance began to be written up before him for those in fear of Jehovah and for those thinking upon his name.
Malachi 3:16
Those who do not remain faithful are wiped out of God's book (Exodus 32:32,33) and in the time of the end they will be hurled into the lake of fire, the second death (Revelation 20:14,15). John 5:28, 29 says that both righteous and unrighteous will be resurrected and judged based on whether they did "good things" or "vile things". This is echoed in Revelation 20:12: And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.
As for where all of these people are as they await the resurrection - they are non-conscious in the grave, the "memorial tombs", and God's memory. Jesus likened death to sleeping and resurrection to being awakened. Incidentally, the grave will also be destroyed in the lake of fire as death will be no more in the new earth (Revelation 20:14;21:3,4).
posted by Danila at 4:40 PM on May 31, 2011
Pre-Christians such as Abraham and Job are said to have hoped in the resurrection of the dead (Hebrew 11:17-19; Job 4:14,15). Daniel was told he would "stand up for [his] lot" in the time of the end. Jesus refers to it as "the resurrection of the righteous ones" (Luke 4:14) and as Alia mentions, faith is counted as righteousness.
Those faithful to God had their names written in "the book of remembrance" or "the book of life":At that time those in fear of Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance began to be written up before him for those in fear of Jehovah and for those thinking upon his name.
Malachi 3:16
Those who do not remain faithful are wiped out of God's book (Exodus 32:32,33) and in the time of the end they will be hurled into the lake of fire, the second death (Revelation 20:14,15). John 5:28, 29 says that both righteous and unrighteous will be resurrected and judged based on whether they did "good things" or "vile things". This is echoed in Revelation 20:12: And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.
As for where all of these people are as they await the resurrection - they are non-conscious in the grave, the "memorial tombs", and God's memory. Jesus likened death to sleeping and resurrection to being awakened. Incidentally, the grave will also be destroyed in the lake of fire as death will be no more in the new earth (Revelation 20:14;21:3,4).
posted by Danila at 4:40 PM on May 31, 2011
Best answer: Origenism, an early theological movement within Catholicism, maintained that all souls, even Satan, are eventually redeemed.
Interestingly, though I had been led to believe that Origenism was condemned by the Church, it turns out that it was apparently not actually declared anathema (scroll down to the very bottom). So, it appears to still be a viable (although certainly not popular!) response to your question.
posted by oddman at 4:42 PM on May 31, 2011
Interestingly, though I had been led to believe that Origenism was condemned by the Church, it turns out that it was apparently not actually declared anathema (scroll down to the very bottom). So, it appears to still be a viable (although certainly not popular!) response to your question.
posted by oddman at 4:42 PM on May 31, 2011
No, it means that about 50% of Americans are some form of either young-earth creationist or young-humanity creationist (ie the earth is older, but humans were created recently - note that the Gallup poll used for the 40% number only asks about human creation, not Earth's creation). So my verdict is: No, "most" Christians are not YEC.
Ok, color me convinced.
Since the Catholic church (not to mention other sects) certainly does not subscribe to young earth creationism it would render the statement "most Christians believe in YEC" false.
Good point, though certainly official dogma and actual beliefs among catholics are often quite disparate.
posted by Lutoslawski at 10:02 AM on June 1, 2011
Ok, color me convinced.
Since the Catholic church (not to mention other sects) certainly does not subscribe to young earth creationism it would render the statement "most Christians believe in YEC" false.
Good point, though certainly official dogma and actual beliefs among catholics are often quite disparate.
posted by Lutoslawski at 10:02 AM on June 1, 2011
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posted by signalnine at 2:28 PM on May 31, 2011