Mech Engineering student transfer
May 27, 2011 8:18 AM Subscribe
Mechanic Engineering undergrad seeks transfer to a more competitive, research-oriented school. What should we know?
Posting for my son, a rising sophomore at a smallish NY state univ. College of Engineering. He's Mechanical, the school focuses on a different engineering discipline, and it shows. He's a great student (GPA 3.8, great rappor with the profs, would get strong letters of recommendation) - a big fish in a small academic pond. Now he wants a bigger pond, more competition, more research. The lack of mech eng. undergraduate research is his biggest motivation. Grad school likely, but he's not currently thinking a Ph.D program. He's looking to transfer after sophomore year, so we have till Spring to research and visit schools.
East Coast, preferably mid-Atlantic states, are his focus. He's looking at RIT, RPI, Hopkins (5 yr masters a plus), WPI, Penn State, Cornell, Carnegie. He didn't like Drexel at a HS visit. Are there must-consider schools we've omitted?
Transferring seems -- capricious, uneven. Information is sketchy. Some websites are helpful in spelling out the application procedures, some are absolutely godawful. Are transfers the afterthought the websites seem to imply? Should we assume from an awful website that bypassing the school is wise?
He gets quite a lot of merit aid now, and if he transfers to a private school would need even more, but this appears to be rare for transfers. How could he possibly compete for this scarce resource coming from a decent but small school? I'd hate to saddle him with huge undergraduate debt!
What are your best tips for jumping from the small to large pond? What shoud he/we know? What huge mistakes should we avoid?
Posting for my son, a rising sophomore at a smallish NY state univ. College of Engineering. He's Mechanical, the school focuses on a different engineering discipline, and it shows. He's a great student (GPA 3.8, great rappor with the profs, would get strong letters of recommendation) - a big fish in a small academic pond. Now he wants a bigger pond, more competition, more research. The lack of mech eng. undergraduate research is his biggest motivation. Grad school likely, but he's not currently thinking a Ph.D program. He's looking to transfer after sophomore year, so we have till Spring to research and visit schools.
East Coast, preferably mid-Atlantic states, are his focus. He's looking at RIT, RPI, Hopkins (5 yr masters a plus), WPI, Penn State, Cornell, Carnegie. He didn't like Drexel at a HS visit. Are there must-consider schools we've omitted?
Transferring seems -- capricious, uneven. Information is sketchy. Some websites are helpful in spelling out the application procedures, some are absolutely godawful. Are transfers the afterthought the websites seem to imply? Should we assume from an awful website that bypassing the school is wise?
He gets quite a lot of merit aid now, and if he transfers to a private school would need even more, but this appears to be rare for transfers. How could he possibly compete for this scarce resource coming from a decent but small school? I'd hate to saddle him with huge undergraduate debt!
What are your best tips for jumping from the small to large pond? What shoud he/we know? What huge mistakes should we avoid?
MIT has it's UROP program. I worked into two different mechanical engineering labs when I was an undergraduate and most of my friends worked in one lab or another. I learned a lot and actually helped with real research. Many of my friends got their names on papers. I did an undergrad thesis as well, working directly with a professor.
I knew one or two transfer students. They seemed to be happy with their choice to come to MIT. I'm not sure on the financial aid for transfers.
I came from a small high school and it was a HUGH adjustment to become a small fish after being the big fish for so long. I wasn't necessarily happy while I was there, but I am glad a went and feel I got a great education and met great people.
posted by chiefthe at 8:44 AM on May 27, 2011
I knew one or two transfer students. They seemed to be happy with their choice to come to MIT. I'm not sure on the financial aid for transfers.
I came from a small high school and it was a HUGH adjustment to become a small fish after being the big fish for so long. I wasn't necessarily happy while I was there, but I am glad a went and feel I got a great education and met great people.
posted by chiefthe at 8:44 AM on May 27, 2011
He gets quite a lot of merit aid now, and if he transfers to a private school would need even more, but this appears to be rare for transfers. How could he possibly compete for this scarce resource coming from a decent but small school?
Your best bet here seems to be to transfer to a school with a large endowment that is known for giving out a lot of need-based financial aid. Honestly, that's probably going to rule out places like Carnegie Mellon.
Are there must-consider schools we've omitted?
University of Pennsylvania. University of Rochester instead of RIT. I don't know what you consider "small," but "small" to me means less than 3000 undergraduates and no significant graduate programs. A medium sized school with 4000 to 6000 undergraduates and an equal number of graduate students should be big enough to have ample research opportunities.
A good flagship state university generally has an excellent and very large engineering program. So if you're a PA resident, and Penn State is on your list, then that seems what you're looking for. Outside of that, you're aiming at high-prestige universities (Penn, Cornell, MIT, Johns Hopkins) that are wealthy enough to give a lot of need-based financial aid. Since he'll only be attending for 2 years, the debt load, if any, will be pretty low.
I did graduate work at CMU, and I highly recommend it for graduate school in engineering but for various reasons would probably point someone elsewhere for undergraduate studies.
Undergraduate research sounds nice, but doesn't really amount to much other than navel-gazing in the end - my opinion of course.
I disagree with this, because undergraduate research is really the only thing that is going to distinguish a candidate from his peers when applying to graduate school.
posted by deanc at 8:47 AM on May 27, 2011
Your best bet here seems to be to transfer to a school with a large endowment that is known for giving out a lot of need-based financial aid. Honestly, that's probably going to rule out places like Carnegie Mellon.
Are there must-consider schools we've omitted?
University of Pennsylvania. University of Rochester instead of RIT. I don't know what you consider "small," but "small" to me means less than 3000 undergraduates and no significant graduate programs. A medium sized school with 4000 to 6000 undergraduates and an equal number of graduate students should be big enough to have ample research opportunities.
A good flagship state university generally has an excellent and very large engineering program. So if you're a PA resident, and Penn State is on your list, then that seems what you're looking for. Outside of that, you're aiming at high-prestige universities (Penn, Cornell, MIT, Johns Hopkins) that are wealthy enough to give a lot of need-based financial aid. Since he'll only be attending for 2 years, the debt load, if any, will be pretty low.
I did graduate work at CMU, and I highly recommend it for graduate school in engineering but for various reasons would probably point someone elsewhere for undergraduate studies.
Undergraduate research sounds nice, but doesn't really amount to much other than navel-gazing in the end - my opinion of course.
I disagree with this, because undergraduate research is really the only thing that is going to distinguish a candidate from his peers when applying to graduate school.
posted by deanc at 8:47 AM on May 27, 2011
You might want to check out Duke's Pratt School of Engineering. I know they have a lot of ME majors, and they're a research university with ample opportunities for undergrads. I am not sure about their engineering school to be honest, but I've heard good things about it. It is very rigorous for the undergrad students, so if your son is looking to be challenged, he'll get that.
posted by sunnychef88 at 8:53 AM on May 27, 2011
posted by sunnychef88 at 8:53 AM on May 27, 2011
Let me clarify. I did state that undergraduate research is absolutely essential when it comes to graduate applications, but I feel that research can be done at a small school just as easily as a larger "name brand" one.
Obviously, East Podunk Community College isn't exactly what I mean when I say "small", I just feel that the return on investment isn't nearly as large for doing undergraduate work at a "big" school. If you're not at least at a top-50 school already, I'd agree to go for the transfer.. just don't overshoot it to get a brand on your resume.
posted by kcm at 9:06 AM on May 27, 2011
Obviously, East Podunk Community College isn't exactly what I mean when I say "small", I just feel that the return on investment isn't nearly as large for doing undergraduate work at a "big" school. If you're not at least at a top-50 school already, I'd agree to go for the transfer.. just don't overshoot it to get a brand on your resume.
posted by kcm at 9:06 AM on May 27, 2011
virginia tech? it's a public school with a fantastic engineering program. it's what we're basically known for.
i'm a rising sophomore who was accepted as a transfer and i'll be starting this fall. engineering really stands out and we get A LOT of recruiters. the financial aid really sucked but i don't think you'll get a lot anywhere since you're a transfer. but since it's a public school it's cheaper than a lot of other places you've mentioned.
posted by enroute888 at 9:43 AM on May 27, 2011
i'm a rising sophomore who was accepted as a transfer and i'll be starting this fall. engineering really stands out and we get A LOT of recruiters. the financial aid really sucked but i don't think you'll get a lot anywhere since you're a transfer. but since it's a public school it's cheaper than a lot of other places you've mentioned.
posted by enroute888 at 9:43 AM on May 27, 2011
Response by poster: enroute888 - Va Tech was not on the initial short list, but I will suggest it. Thanks for the suggestion. Can you describe more about your experience as a transfer applicant?
sunnychef88 - Had not thought about Duke. I'm in medicine, and the ego of Duke docs is legend, but maybe ME graduates are more humble folk?
deanc - Had not really considered U Penn, but we're in Philly and they have tons of $$$, so will add it. Thanks also for the U of Rochester suggestion, which I will follow up on. I also agree about the value of undergrad research, not only to stand out, but because it allows a student to explore a personal interest, and possibly publish. That's a huge step, and in my eyes more valuable than an as a grunt on a PH.D project.
chiefthe - your MIT info is very interesting and helpful. My son didn't apply there, as he thought they were all "too geeky". I will point out your posting and suggest he follow up. He would probably not have been too competative a freshman candidate at MIT, either. His HS was arts-rich, so he didn't have a flashy sciences HS transcript, but he's looking more competitive now.
posted by citygirl at 10:17 AM on May 27, 2011
sunnychef88 - Had not thought about Duke. I'm in medicine, and the ego of Duke docs is legend, but maybe ME graduates are more humble folk?
deanc - Had not really considered U Penn, but we're in Philly and they have tons of $$$, so will add it. Thanks also for the U of Rochester suggestion, which I will follow up on. I also agree about the value of undergrad research, not only to stand out, but because it allows a student to explore a personal interest, and possibly publish. That's a huge step, and in my eyes more valuable than an as a grunt on a PH.D project.
chiefthe - your MIT info is very interesting and helpful. My son didn't apply there, as he thought they were all "too geeky". I will point out your posting and suggest he follow up. He would probably not have been too competative a freshman candidate at MIT, either. His HS was arts-rich, so he didn't have a flashy sciences HS transcript, but he's looking more competitive now.
posted by citygirl at 10:17 AM on May 27, 2011
it allows a student to explore a personal interest, and possibly publish. That's a huge step, and in my eyes more valuable than an as a grunt on a PH.D project.
Um, that is what being a grunt on a Ph.D. project is all about. :)
Reading through your previous posts along with this one, it sounds like you don't really have a lot of contact with many people in the physical sciences and engineering. It might help to make some acquaintances with people who've been involved in this area so that you can speak to them and get a better idea of what your son's academic and professional opportunities are like. Some surgeons studied engineering and undergrads and/or might work with engineers in medical device companies. Talk to them.
posted by deanc at 10:39 AM on May 27, 2011
Um, that is what being a grunt on a Ph.D. project is all about. :)
Reading through your previous posts along with this one, it sounds like you don't really have a lot of contact with many people in the physical sciences and engineering. It might help to make some acquaintances with people who've been involved in this area so that you can speak to them and get a better idea of what your son's academic and professional opportunities are like. Some surgeons studied engineering and undergrads and/or might work with engineers in medical device companies. Talk to them.
posted by deanc at 10:39 AM on May 27, 2011
Another option would be to do summer research elsewhere. Caltech has a program called SURF that's open to students from other schools, for example.
posted by kbuxton at 1:49 PM on May 27, 2011
posted by kbuxton at 1:49 PM on May 27, 2011
If research experiences is what you're going for, I would strongly recommend against transferring to find them. I'm at MIT and they have a really good undergrad research program (mentioned up-thread) and from my seat as a grad student, it's not that valuable for students.
I've worked with lots of undergrads and they're invariably overworked and constantly tired and unable to do anything really productive during the semester. I'm very lucky to get more than 40 hours of work done with one over the course of a semester. Even if there is time to get things done, it's nearly guaranteed to be grunt work. In software fields like mine that's not so bad because at least you're getting experience writing code, but I suspect in ME it's a lot of babysitting experiments. I guess that builds some expertise too, but in my limited experience doing that kind of thing it's intensely tedious and strangely stressful more than it is educational. So even if you can manage to find interesting research opportunities during the term, they're going to be competing with everything else you have going on. You're unlikely to get contact with faculty in serious research schools, so you're not really even going to get any opportunities to develop a relationship with them as potential recommendation-letter authors. Sometimes it turns into a really great relationship, but in my experience that's relatively rare.
I would strongly recommend you look into the REU (Research Experiences for Undergrads) program instead. It's too late for this summer, I suspect, but there are tons of opportunities out there to spend a summer being paid to do research in exactly the environments you're interested in. Many NSF grants require the grantees to make these slots available to students precisely so students like your son can have serious research experiences even if their school doesn't have much research going on locally. The application processes are sane, it's well respected, lets you try out more than one school before you're having to make application decisions, you'll meet other research-oriented students from schools around the country, and you have enough time to actually make a real research contribution. My undergrad school had very little research, too, but all my friends who ended up in research had REU experiences on their resume that were invaluable for getting into grad school.
Certainly, if there are other reasons he wants out of his current school, transferring might make sense. But I think the opportunities to get to know faculty and thrive in a smaller and more supportive environment far outweigh the potential benefits of being an undergrad at an R1 school. There are tons of downsides to that, and I don't think the upsides that you're hoping for will be there.
Feel free to memail if you want to chat more about this. I had a very similar path (non-research small undergrad school -> R1 grad school) and would be happy to talk about that process if you're having anxiety about making the switch down the road.
posted by heresiarch at 3:44 PM on May 27, 2011
I've worked with lots of undergrads and they're invariably overworked and constantly tired and unable to do anything really productive during the semester. I'm very lucky to get more than 40 hours of work done with one over the course of a semester. Even if there is time to get things done, it's nearly guaranteed to be grunt work. In software fields like mine that's not so bad because at least you're getting experience writing code, but I suspect in ME it's a lot of babysitting experiments. I guess that builds some expertise too, but in my limited experience doing that kind of thing it's intensely tedious and strangely stressful more than it is educational. So even if you can manage to find interesting research opportunities during the term, they're going to be competing with everything else you have going on. You're unlikely to get contact with faculty in serious research schools, so you're not really even going to get any opportunities to develop a relationship with them as potential recommendation-letter authors. Sometimes it turns into a really great relationship, but in my experience that's relatively rare.
I would strongly recommend you look into the REU (Research Experiences for Undergrads) program instead. It's too late for this summer, I suspect, but there are tons of opportunities out there to spend a summer being paid to do research in exactly the environments you're interested in. Many NSF grants require the grantees to make these slots available to students precisely so students like your son can have serious research experiences even if their school doesn't have much research going on locally. The application processes are sane, it's well respected, lets you try out more than one school before you're having to make application decisions, you'll meet other research-oriented students from schools around the country, and you have enough time to actually make a real research contribution. My undergrad school had very little research, too, but all my friends who ended up in research had REU experiences on their resume that were invaluable for getting into grad school.
Certainly, if there are other reasons he wants out of his current school, transferring might make sense. But I think the opportunities to get to know faculty and thrive in a smaller and more supportive environment far outweigh the potential benefits of being an undergrad at an R1 school. There are tons of downsides to that, and I don't think the upsides that you're hoping for will be there.
Feel free to memail if you want to chat more about this. I had a very similar path (non-research small undergrad school -> R1 grad school) and would be happy to talk about that process if you're having anxiety about making the switch down the road.
posted by heresiarch at 3:44 PM on May 27, 2011
Why does your son want research experience? Is it something he hasn't tried and wants to experience? Something he already loves? Something he expects to improve his odds when applying for grad school or jobs?
I can speak to WPI, having gone there for undergrad, though not for ME. Small school, beautiful campus, Worcester has a few charms and a number of flaws. Not much name recognition outside of New England, unfortunately. It's very expensive, though there's a fair amount of both merit-based and need-based aid. Not sure what the transfer situation is like; I have a couple friends who transferred in but don't know specifics. I did undergrad research for a summer, which wasn't that common at the time; I don't know if they're doing more/less of it now. There may be a five-year master's in ME, though it's probably coursework-based and not thesis-based - at least, that's how the five-year master's in my department was.
What your son might find interesting: Part of undergrad at WPI is doing a capstone project in your major. This can be research-oriented or industry-oriented, often done in a small team, and it's typically either a full-time 2-month experience or a part-time 6-month experience. The project can be anything you can convince a professor to advise, whether you create your own or become part of an existing thread of work. I found talking about my project, which was industry-oriented, quite useful in job interviews, and I'd think that a research-focused capstone could be similarly beneficial.
I don't know anything about ME, but here are some of the past projects in that department and here are some upcoming projects. There's a second required project that's similar in scope but focuses on in social impact of technology. A lot of these are done abroad - WPI is big on sending students overseas or at least to another part of the country - although the off-campus ones have you sign up for an existing project, while the students who stay on campus have more flexibility. There's also a third, but it's smaller and humanities-related.
I did graduate work at CMU and loved the school, but was not a huge fan of Pittsburgh for what it's worth.
I must say...I did graduate work at CMU and loved Pittsburgh, but was not a huge fan of the school. But that had a lot to do with my particular program - again, not ME.
posted by orangejenny at 7:37 PM on May 27, 2011
I can speak to WPI, having gone there for undergrad, though not for ME. Small school, beautiful campus, Worcester has a few charms and a number of flaws. Not much name recognition outside of New England, unfortunately. It's very expensive, though there's a fair amount of both merit-based and need-based aid. Not sure what the transfer situation is like; I have a couple friends who transferred in but don't know specifics. I did undergrad research for a summer, which wasn't that common at the time; I don't know if they're doing more/less of it now. There may be a five-year master's in ME, though it's probably coursework-based and not thesis-based - at least, that's how the five-year master's in my department was.
What your son might find interesting: Part of undergrad at WPI is doing a capstone project in your major. This can be research-oriented or industry-oriented, often done in a small team, and it's typically either a full-time 2-month experience or a part-time 6-month experience. The project can be anything you can convince a professor to advise, whether you create your own or become part of an existing thread of work. I found talking about my project, which was industry-oriented, quite useful in job interviews, and I'd think that a research-focused capstone could be similarly beneficial.
I don't know anything about ME, but here are some of the past projects in that department and here are some upcoming projects. There's a second required project that's similar in scope but focuses on in social impact of technology. A lot of these are done abroad - WPI is big on sending students overseas or at least to another part of the country - although the off-campus ones have you sign up for an existing project, while the students who stay on campus have more flexibility. There's also a third, but it's smaller and humanities-related.
I did graduate work at CMU and loved the school, but was not a huge fan of Pittsburgh for what it's worth.
I must say...I did graduate work at CMU and loved Pittsburgh, but was not a huge fan of the school. But that had a lot to do with my particular program - again, not ME.
posted by orangejenny at 7:37 PM on May 27, 2011
Absolutely. First off I will say that I haven't started since I was admitted for this fall. I have orientation next month.
Anyways, from my perspective now as a soon-to-be student, I am highly disappointed. These are more personal reasons though. I do not feel welcomed at all in terms of acceptance. My admission packet was only 3 pages long with an acceptance letter, a timeline of what to do until school starts, and an instruction guide on how to deposit. From my understanding, the freshman acceptance packet includes a booklet and some other cool things.
As a transfer, i really feel left out. Not only was our financial aid crappy but our orientation is going to be mediocre as well. We won't have a two-day orientation like the freshman, and while i understand that we already have some college experience and thus won't need "carnivals" and seminars on "how to keep up with college academics", they really, really cut out a lot of the freshman programs for transfers. it almost makes me not want to go to orientation.
these are just personal reasons, so if your kid doesn't care about it, he'll be fine. During the school year, however, you'll be as if you never transferred. It's completely the same.
posted by enroute888 at 9:15 PM on May 27, 2011
Anyways, from my perspective now as a soon-to-be student, I am highly disappointed. These are more personal reasons though. I do not feel welcomed at all in terms of acceptance. My admission packet was only 3 pages long with an acceptance letter, a timeline of what to do until school starts, and an instruction guide on how to deposit. From my understanding, the freshman acceptance packet includes a booklet and some other cool things.
As a transfer, i really feel left out. Not only was our financial aid crappy but our orientation is going to be mediocre as well. We won't have a two-day orientation like the freshman, and while i understand that we already have some college experience and thus won't need "carnivals" and seminars on "how to keep up with college academics", they really, really cut out a lot of the freshman programs for transfers. it almost makes me not want to go to orientation.
these are just personal reasons, so if your kid doesn't care about it, he'll be fine. During the school year, however, you'll be as if you never transferred. It's completely the same.
posted by enroute888 at 9:15 PM on May 27, 2011
Is your son really set on transferring? Being a big fish in a small pond may be much more beneficial for grad school applications than any amount of undergrad research. In my experience, undergrad research in ME (even at a research institution) is just not all that important. I agree with heresiarch that undergrads just don't have enough time to devote to research to accomplish much. There are plenty of other ways to get research experience. I'd suggest a summer research program or, even better, an internship instead. And don't overlook hourly grunt work in a lab- even one that has little or nothing to do with ME.
Am I understanding correctly that your son will be starting his sophomore year in the fall? If that's the case, he probably hasn't even begun the core ME classes. I'd make sure he can handle thermo before looking for a more competitive environment. A good GPA is essential for grad school admissions. No amount of research experience can make up for a lousy one.
Good luck to your son. ME is a great field. Even in this economy I don't know a single person who graduated with a graduate degree in ME that isn't working in the field (and I know a lot of ME grads).
posted by rebeccabeagle at 10:35 PM on May 27, 2011
Am I understanding correctly that your son will be starting his sophomore year in the fall? If that's the case, he probably hasn't even begun the core ME classes. I'd make sure he can handle thermo before looking for a more competitive environment. A good GPA is essential for grad school admissions. No amount of research experience can make up for a lousy one.
Good luck to your son. ME is a great field. Even in this economy I don't know a single person who graduated with a graduate degree in ME that isn't working in the field (and I know a lot of ME grads).
posted by rebeccabeagle at 10:35 PM on May 27, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
Undergraduate research sounds nice, but doesn't really amount to much other than navel-gazing in the end - my opinion of course.
I did graduate work at CMU and loved the school, but was not a huge fan of Pittsburgh for what it's worth.
posted by kcm at 8:35 AM on May 27, 2011 [1 favorite]