BA in Bio or Environmental Science?
May 22, 2011 8:52 PM Subscribe
Second BA: Biology vs. Environmental Science?
I have a BA in Political Science. I am ultimately interested in pursuing a MA / PhD program along these lines, if not that one in particular. I know I need more of a science background, so I'm planning on returning to my undergrad college to get another BA. This is the Bio program (the env. studies concentration is being phased out) and this is the Environmental Science program. Which will serve me better given my background and long term plans? Assume research and lab work opportunities are the same in both programs.
I have a BA in Political Science. I am ultimately interested in pursuing a MA / PhD program along these lines, if not that one in particular. I know I need more of a science background, so I'm planning on returning to my undergrad college to get another BA. This is the Bio program (the env. studies concentration is being phased out) and this is the Environmental Science program. Which will serve me better given my background and long term plans? Assume research and lab work opportunities are the same in both programs.
At first, I was going to suggest Biology.... but glancing at the two programs, I would say take the Environmental Science program. It looks like it still has a strong life science/natural science core, with additional courses that are better suited for your future goals. You want classes with field components; ecology, geology, hydrology and natural history.
The Biology program looks like it may lean heavier in the molecular/biomedical side of biology, which means you will be likely in a class with mainly pre-med students. With apologies to any future/current MDs... They can be unpleasant and competitive classmates, which could result your class ranking may not accurately reflect your learning. (Don't get me wrong, all biology is pretty awesome.)
As an aside, may I ask you why you want to get a PhD? As someone who is watching my friends (and myself) finish up our dissertations in Zoology/Botany/Ecology and get thrust into a world where there are few postdocs or even non-academic research jobs (USGS, DNR, USFS) and no tenure-track positions...well I just don't want to be a cheerleader for the field at the moment, though I also don't want to discourage anyone.
posted by Maude_the_destroyer at 9:21 PM on May 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
The Biology program looks like it may lean heavier in the molecular/biomedical side of biology, which means you will be likely in a class with mainly pre-med students. With apologies to any future/current MDs... They can be unpleasant and competitive classmates, which could result your class ranking may not accurately reflect your learning. (Don't get me wrong, all biology is pretty awesome.)
As an aside, may I ask you why you want to get a PhD? As someone who is watching my friends (and myself) finish up our dissertations in Zoology/Botany/Ecology and get thrust into a world where there are few postdocs or even non-academic research jobs (USGS, DNR, USFS) and no tenure-track positions...well I just don't want to be a cheerleader for the field at the moment, though I also don't want to discourage anyone.
posted by Maude_the_destroyer at 9:21 PM on May 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Geez.I mean: which could result in your class ranking NOT accurately reflectING your learning.
Maybe you shouldn't take my advice :P
posted by Maude_the_destroyer at 9:23 PM on May 22, 2011
Maybe you shouldn't take my advice :P
posted by Maude_the_destroyer at 9:23 PM on May 22, 2011
Response by poster: I might stop after the MA. It depends on what program I get into / what the job prospects are looking like in a couple of years.
posted by youcancallmeal at 9:23 PM on May 22, 2011
posted by youcancallmeal at 9:23 PM on May 22, 2011
I am surprised that the enviro course has such a diverse and challenging req. list. Good scholasticism builds upon itself; I think the enviro would be a better lead in to a MA or PhD program.
The bio path is a very traditional lab/medical path as per the reqs. Seems like the enviro course would be the proper route towards the MA/PhD plan.
posted by buzzman at 9:32 PM on May 22, 2011
The bio path is a very traditional lab/medical path as per the reqs. Seems like the enviro course would be the proper route towards the MA/PhD plan.
posted by buzzman at 9:32 PM on May 22, 2011
Response by poster: I'm also planning on minoring in Economics if that matters at all to round things out and since I've already taken most of the classes for it.
posted by youcancallmeal at 9:34 PM on May 22, 2011
posted by youcancallmeal at 9:34 PM on May 22, 2011
Just a 2 cent opinion as someone who switched as an undergrad from one bio department to another (i.e. molecular bio to environmental bio), did undergrad research in a completely different department (psychology but the research was very molecular bio oriented) and then went onto grad school in yet a different type of bio....
Please don't take this wrong, but you may be over thinking this right now. You have't taken the courses yet to know what you really will or will not enjoy. In addition, real bio research is a very different experience than classroom work, and students change department all the time. Furthermore, when I looked at the courses (and faculty) for each department, they overlap significantly. For example, 104 is required for each department, the faculty overlaps, etc.
This is what I would suggest you focus on instead of whether it is bio department A or bio dep B. Pick one of them for now (I would go with Environmental, but it really doesn't matter right now) and take a course that is a prereq for both departments to start out. Perhaps your economics course, too, since you list that.
What I would focus on is: What type of field and/or lab experience would you like? Check out their "about us" faculty pages. Read through the topic papers or any research descriptions they have. Does anything sound interesting? If it does, I would lean towards that department.
When you are there....start contacting the faculty before next summer and ask to do a research project in the summer (or even academic year). The point would be to get field experience or lab experience in things that you are interested in and if you want to do an MA or PhD, better yet, work on something that may get published (ask faculty about undergrads they have worked with - does the work get published? Do the students present at conferences?). If you start out this early (and since you have already finished, are likely to be an older, more mature student), I would consider working in a different lab the following summer. That way, you will have experience for a job, research experience for grad school, and you have a better idea of what you like and love.
If you get along with faculty members when you are there (or grad students if they are in a lab), go to journal clubs, too (this will help you when you get to grad school and just to understand research in your lab or other labs).
I would not rule out molecular bio or endocrinology courses this early because with those tools, you may have really interesting research or work.
You notice how I said I switched departments as an undergrad? I didn't lose anytime at all, and I switched after completing year 1. I also know that people in my graduate department came from all backgrounds (various undergrad bio departments and even psychology); no one really looked at the detailed undergrad courses they took but rather, could they do research and did they have a basic foundation to understand graduate level courses?
Good luck.
posted by Wolfster at 9:58 PM on May 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
Please don't take this wrong, but you may be over thinking this right now. You have't taken the courses yet to know what you really will or will not enjoy. In addition, real bio research is a very different experience than classroom work, and students change department all the time. Furthermore, when I looked at the courses (and faculty) for each department, they overlap significantly. For example, 104 is required for each department, the faculty overlaps, etc.
This is what I would suggest you focus on instead of whether it is bio department A or bio dep B. Pick one of them for now (I would go with Environmental, but it really doesn't matter right now) and take a course that is a prereq for both departments to start out. Perhaps your economics course, too, since you list that.
What I would focus on is: What type of field and/or lab experience would you like? Check out their "about us" faculty pages. Read through the topic papers or any research descriptions they have. Does anything sound interesting? If it does, I would lean towards that department.
When you are there....start contacting the faculty before next summer and ask to do a research project in the summer (or even academic year). The point would be to get field experience or lab experience in things that you are interested in and if you want to do an MA or PhD, better yet, work on something that may get published (ask faculty about undergrads they have worked with - does the work get published? Do the students present at conferences?). If you start out this early (and since you have already finished, are likely to be an older, more mature student), I would consider working in a different lab the following summer. That way, you will have experience for a job, research experience for grad school, and you have a better idea of what you like and love.
If you get along with faculty members when you are there (or grad students if they are in a lab), go to journal clubs, too (this will help you when you get to grad school and just to understand research in your lab or other labs).
I would not rule out molecular bio or endocrinology courses this early because with those tools, you may have really interesting research or work.
You notice how I said I switched departments as an undergrad? I didn't lose anytime at all, and I switched after completing year 1. I also know that people in my graduate department came from all backgrounds (various undergrad bio departments and even psychology); no one really looked at the detailed undergrad courses they took but rather, could they do research and did they have a basic foundation to understand graduate level courses?
Good luck.
posted by Wolfster at 9:58 PM on May 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
Do you need to have a second BA, or could you just take classes as the spirit moves you until you felt you were ready to kick off the PhD phase of things? I say this because, in hindsight, the classes the university wanted me to take for my major and the classes I wish I would have taken diverge in a couple areas.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 5:07 AM on May 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 5:07 AM on May 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
From my personal experience, you do not need a second bachelor's. I have a bachelor's in liberal arts and a MS and PhD in Ecology. In between, I spent a year in Americorps in a conservation corps, where I got a ton of field research experience, and spent a year taking pre-reqs (stats, organic chemistry, and an upper level bio elective).
I would suggest contacting programs and particular advisors you're interested in working with and find out what the actual expectations are for those programs. Some advisors will be adamant that you must have a bachelor's in the field and some will be interested in students with other backgrounds (some advisors even like people like us).
In general, as others have suggested above, I think having some actual field or lab research experience in the area you're interested in will do more to help you get into grad school, by demonstrating that you really are interested in this stuff and giving you a chance to make sure that you really are. Grad school is almost completely about research, and research can be boring, lonely, tedious, and frustrating.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:25 AM on May 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
I would suggest contacting programs and particular advisors you're interested in working with and find out what the actual expectations are for those programs. Some advisors will be adamant that you must have a bachelor's in the field and some will be interested in students with other backgrounds (some advisors even like people like us).
In general, as others have suggested above, I think having some actual field or lab research experience in the area you're interested in will do more to help you get into grad school, by demonstrating that you really are interested in this stuff and giving you a chance to make sure that you really are. Grad school is almost completely about research, and research can be boring, lonely, tedious, and frustrating.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:25 AM on May 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
Best answer: The biology program is science, the environmental studies one, closer to a social sciences degree with a sprinkling of science courses. I deal with Bio and ES studies grads every day: the bio degrees are more suitable for lab and science work, the es for regulatory and policy. Be warned too, ES degrees are seen as second-best, neither fish nor fowl degrees by many. Better to solidly know the polysci/eco or the science than try to do half of each and not be competent in either.
I wouldn't bother with either. Get into a good MSc program instead of a BSc. Do your science at the Masters level. If you want to go into econ eventually, plan on a science masters followed by a PhD in economics. Time spent on a second BSc will just waste a couple of years, IMO.
posted by bonehead at 6:01 AM on May 23, 2011
I wouldn't bother with either. Get into a good MSc program instead of a BSc. Do your science at the Masters level. If you want to go into econ eventually, plan on a science masters followed by a PhD in economics. Time spent on a second BSc will just waste a couple of years, IMO.
posted by bonehead at 6:01 AM on May 23, 2011
I tend to agree with bonehead's assessment. If you know what you want to do, you could customize a masters program for yourself, and you will be in a good position for a PhD. But that could be tricky to accomplish (and grad school does entail gambles that undergrad doesn't). By going to your alma mater, I'm guessing you can will be able to skip some of the prereqs and shave some time of that BS degree. If you area interested in environmental sci, go with the environmental sci degree and pack in as much actual science as you like-- I don't see why you couldn't take some bio classes too of that suits your interests. Transcripts count for grad school. If you haven't, go ahead and talk to the graduate director at UV and ask them what would put you in good standing.
posted by zennie at 11:57 AM on May 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by zennie at 11:57 AM on May 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
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posted by phunniemee at 9:00 PM on May 22, 2011