Nothing to do with the Emerald City
May 19, 2011 6:08 AM Subscribe
The last movement of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony begins by recapitulating and rejecting themes from the first three movements. What is being symbolically rejected?
A friend of mine says the Ninth is about the Brahmaviharas, the four immeasurables. The first three movements represent compassion, benevolence, and equanimity, all of which are rejected by the fourth in favour of joy, hence the Schiller.
As a personal interpretation I think this works quite well, but the idea that Buddhist doctrine is what Beethoven (or Schiller for that matter) had in mind is surely bonkers.
So what did Beethoven have in mind? The sources I've found say 'nobody knows'.
Best answer: I think you're safe with your "bonkers" idea here. The only thing that unites in this case Schiller, Beethoven, and Buddhist doctrine, would be a shared being-humanness, and that's to vague a concept to lead to anything new.
I am not entirely sure whether we actually can call these theme rejections symbolical. Beethoven's way of (keyboard) improvising, as frequently reported, was usually from fragmentary to coherent. He could even start with a bunch of slapdash sounds, randomly struck keys or whatnot, and then gradually develop his ideas from there. In some of his compositions, he uses, no, demonstrates for the listener, how this works. The finale of Op. 106 is another good example. And it is worthwhile looking at Op 80, the choral Fantasy, which is a very quickly written piece that forecasts some elements from the Finale of the 9th. Symphony.
In the ninth, his use of material that's been heard earlier in the piece, may - from a compositional viewpoint - have been nothing more than a technique of creating some over-arching unity (even this re-use of themes, motifs, and cells, is evident in many of his earlier works, so in no way special to the 9th Symphony).
"Nobody knows" would refer to the source situation, that is, the fact that Beethoven was extremely reluctant to talk about compositional process. Beethoven scholars use his sketches instead to re-capture some of his creative processes, but naturally, the results are confined to chronology, techniques and solutions. So, typically, the symbolic content is very difficult to get at in Beethoven studies.
This does not mean that scholars and others haven't tried. Early Beethoven reception of the late 19th and early 20th centuries is ripe with suggestions of meaning, some more to the point than others, but very few really grounded in Beethoven's time. Even today, we (i.e. Beethoven scholars) have a hard time to stay clear of the, if you will, encrustations that Beethoven reception history has caused.
I'd vote for listening and enjoying, noting whatever you're able to note, and establish a "meaning of Beethoven" that makes sense to you alone. That's the beauty about this music, it is so good that this is actually a workable method toward more enjoyment.
posted by Namlit at 6:30 AM on May 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
I am not entirely sure whether we actually can call these theme rejections symbolical. Beethoven's way of (keyboard) improvising, as frequently reported, was usually from fragmentary to coherent. He could even start with a bunch of slapdash sounds, randomly struck keys or whatnot, and then gradually develop his ideas from there. In some of his compositions, he uses, no, demonstrates for the listener, how this works. The finale of Op. 106 is another good example. And it is worthwhile looking at Op 80, the choral Fantasy, which is a very quickly written piece that forecasts some elements from the Finale of the 9th. Symphony.
In the ninth, his use of material that's been heard earlier in the piece, may - from a compositional viewpoint - have been nothing more than a technique of creating some over-arching unity (even this re-use of themes, motifs, and cells, is evident in many of his earlier works, so in no way special to the 9th Symphony).
"Nobody knows" would refer to the source situation, that is, the fact that Beethoven was extremely reluctant to talk about compositional process. Beethoven scholars use his sketches instead to re-capture some of his creative processes, but naturally, the results are confined to chronology, techniques and solutions. So, typically, the symbolic content is very difficult to get at in Beethoven studies.
This does not mean that scholars and others haven't tried. Early Beethoven reception of the late 19th and early 20th centuries is ripe with suggestions of meaning, some more to the point than others, but very few really grounded in Beethoven's time. Even today, we (i.e. Beethoven scholars) have a hard time to stay clear of the, if you will, encrustations that Beethoven reception history has caused.
I'd vote for listening and enjoying, noting whatever you're able to note, and establish a "meaning of Beethoven" that makes sense to you alone. That's the beauty about this music, it is so good that this is actually a workable method toward more enjoyment.
posted by Namlit at 6:30 AM on May 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
It's been a while since my musicology days, but everything I remember about the Ninth Symphony was that it used the themes of the Enlightenment - so in the inclusion in Schiller, a Enlightenment poet, was a nod to those beliefs. Trying to place any symbolism in the "rejection," besides Beethoven's own musical stylings, I think reaches beyond what anyone can say about the music. At that point, you're basically putting your own spin on things.
On preview, what Namlit said, just much more eloquently.
If you see Buddhist themes there, and that works for you, fine. Many people see symbols and ideas in art that weren't necessarily meant to be there.
posted by SNWidget at 6:34 AM on May 19, 2011
On preview, what Namlit said, just much more eloquently.
If you see Buddhist themes there, and that works for you, fine. Many people see symbols and ideas in art that weren't necessarily meant to be there.
posted by SNWidget at 6:34 AM on May 19, 2011
Namlit mentions the idea that Beethoven's Choral Fantasy was a precursor to the Ninth Symphony. There's even a thought that the Choral Fantasy itself was preceded by another work. So, it may have no meaning at all other than Beethoven's full realization of a theme he'd been working on for years.
posted by cabingirl at 6:37 AM on May 19, 2011
posted by cabingirl at 6:37 AM on May 19, 2011
I vote for "it doesn't mean anything at all other than accidentally coinciding with other works he was writing near the same time." (The 5th Symphony/Appassionata Sonata would be an easy-to-grasp example of this, too.)
I have several degrees in music, and while it certainly is true that such depth of musical works does exist as the OP presented it, one of the things that bugs me about my colleagues is that they seem to think that every single work of music must have such depth. Sometimes composers just compose music and give it a descriptive title. It doesn't always have to be deeper than that. Honestly, I don't think Beethoven is getting that deep here--not saying he never was, though.
posted by TinWhistle at 6:56 AM on May 19, 2011
I have several degrees in music, and while it certainly is true that such depth of musical works does exist as the OP presented it, one of the things that bugs me about my colleagues is that they seem to think that every single work of music must have such depth. Sometimes composers just compose music and give it a descriptive title. It doesn't always have to be deeper than that. Honestly, I don't think Beethoven is getting that deep here--not saying he never was, though.
posted by TinWhistle at 6:56 AM on May 19, 2011
Europeans didn't take much of an interest in Buddhism until the 1870s. Beethoven was dead by then.
posted by desjardins at 7:00 AM on May 19, 2011
posted by desjardins at 7:00 AM on May 19, 2011
Also, too, and I forgot to mention this, is that recapitulating and rejecting themes from the first three movements is simply just a compositional technique; simply that. Doesn't need to equate to symbolism.
posted by TinWhistle at 7:06 AM on May 19, 2011
posted by TinWhistle at 7:06 AM on May 19, 2011
Doesn't need to equate to symbolism
Well, to be fair, the OP asked whether it did, not whether it needed. And, as said, the towering figure of Beethoven somehow seems to ask from us to make such outer-musical connections. I don't believe there's one in this case, though.
I thought of one other thing that happened later in music history than Beethoven's 9th Symphony: Program Music, and specifically, such music with a psychological program (as opposed to Alpensymphonie-type-of-storyline pieces). Psychological programs have been suggested for, or inscribed in, lots of late Romantic and early Modern pieces of music. In many of these, symbolic content lurks around the corner. Think of all the pieces with a Faustian theme, for example.
While Beethoven explicitly was interested in his impact as a humanist artist on the after-world, the "how" of it is rarely spelled out in his work. Well, his choice of Schiller's Ode and die Freude is about as far as we get, but beyond that, not so far.
posted by Namlit at 8:02 AM on May 19, 2011
Well, to be fair, the OP asked whether it did, not whether it needed. And, as said, the towering figure of Beethoven somehow seems to ask from us to make such outer-musical connections. I don't believe there's one in this case, though.
I thought of one other thing that happened later in music history than Beethoven's 9th Symphony: Program Music, and specifically, such music with a psychological program (as opposed to Alpensymphonie-type-of-storyline pieces). Psychological programs have been suggested for, or inscribed in, lots of late Romantic and early Modern pieces of music. In many of these, symbolic content lurks around the corner. Think of all the pieces with a Faustian theme, for example.
While Beethoven explicitly was interested in his impact as a humanist artist on the after-world, the "how" of it is rarely spelled out in his work. Well, his choice of Schiller's Ode and die Freude is about as far as we get, but beyond that, not so far.
posted by Namlit at 8:02 AM on May 19, 2011
Best answer: I have zero degrees in music, though I've performed B9 a couple dozen times. (Including, coincidentally, for the Dalai Lama, but that is a weird situation that is not as impressive as it sounds.) In my view, the recapitulation and rejection of the themes is just a way to introduce the voices; the bass/cello "interruption/rejection" is done in the style of recitative, which is the "spoken song" of opera. So you have the offer of the first movement, the rejection; the offer of the second, the rejection; the offer of the third, the rejection; and then the basses and cellos line out the "Ode to Joy" theme. Everyone else starts to play this, and they really get into it, and then you get the big stormy run-up to "O Freude." The translation of that tenor recitative -- which has the same musical setting as the first cello/bass interruption -- is "Oh Friends, not these tones! Rather, let us raise our voices in more pleasing and more joyful sounds!" So the whole thing is "No, this instrumental music is not joyful enough; to be THIS joyful, we need singers." (N.B. I am a singer.)
As for your friend's Buddhist interpretation, I think it's valid. It's certainly not what Beethoven was thinking about, I doubt he'd know the Buddha if he tripped over him, but I still think it's valid. The Ninth is an amazing piece of music, and I do think it represents and reflects incredible insights into the human spirit. Some of those insights and reflections have happened before and since, to other people. That kind of musical allegory doesn't have to be intentional to be true, imho.
posted by KathrynT at 10:05 AM on May 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
As for your friend's Buddhist interpretation, I think it's valid. It's certainly not what Beethoven was thinking about, I doubt he'd know the Buddha if he tripped over him, but I still think it's valid. The Ninth is an amazing piece of music, and I do think it represents and reflects incredible insights into the human spirit. Some of those insights and reflections have happened before and since, to other people. That kind of musical allegory doesn't have to be intentional to be true, imho.
posted by KathrynT at 10:05 AM on May 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
Weirdly (or not), KathrynT's pretty much got exactly what I was going to say -- weird, because while we have a very similar background as singers, I was actually going to refer back to my long-ago musicology days. We also described it as closer to operatic music: the cellos doing that sort of call and answer recitative, the recap of the themes from other movements, etc.
Thinking about Schiller's Form and Sinn, an interplay between reason and sensuality, I think our explanation makes total sense. It also does a great job of setting the stage for the Romantics to come in just a few years. Think about Schumann, with his personae (Eusebius and Florestan); think about the shift from the court patronage of Haydn and Mozart to the bohemian image of Schubert sitting in a garret.
SUCH an amazing piece. Everyone should listen to the whole damn thing and perform it at least once.
posted by Madamina at 10:37 AM on May 19, 2011
Thinking about Schiller's Form and Sinn, an interplay between reason and sensuality, I think our explanation makes total sense. It also does a great job of setting the stage for the Romantics to come in just a few years. Think about Schumann, with his personae (Eusebius and Florestan); think about the shift from the court patronage of Haydn and Mozart to the bohemian image of Schubert sitting in a garret.
SUCH an amazing piece. Everyone should listen to the whole damn thing and perform it at least once.
posted by Madamina at 10:37 AM on May 19, 2011
Europeans didn't take much of an interest in Buddhism until the 1870s.
That's not entirely correct. Schopenhauer was certainly familiar with the Upanishads and Buddhism, probably before he wrote The World as Will and Representation in 1818. It might not have been popular, but it could have had some influence during Beethoven's life. Alas, there just doesn't seem to be any evidence of it.
posted by Hylas at 2:40 PM on May 19, 2011
That's not entirely correct. Schopenhauer was certainly familiar with the Upanishads and Buddhism, probably before he wrote The World as Will and Representation in 1818. It might not have been popular, but it could have had some influence during Beethoven's life. Alas, there just doesn't seem to be any evidence of it.
posted by Hylas at 2:40 PM on May 19, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by empath at 6:29 AM on May 19, 2011