One nervous pagan versus a thousand christians
April 24, 2011 10:53 AM Subscribe
I am not Christian, and often feel seriously awkward and uncomfortable talking to faithful people on/around/about Christian holidays. How can I avoid or lessen this feeling?
I gave up on Christianity a long time ago, then decided paganism was the way to go. This was about twenty years ago.
Over the last ten years I've become more and more (quietly and personally) devoted to my choice of religion, and I've come to where talking with someone who is very overtly Jesus-faithful in speech (answering the phone with 'Hello! Jesus loves you!' and the like) tends to make me uncomfortable. I'm not hiding in the broom closet and never really have, but with some family, co-workers, and most of the people in my hometown it isn't really an option to say to people around The Holidays that their (and forgive my use of this phrase) Jesus-bothering kind of, well, bothers me. It's great that they want to celebrate their faith, but shouting it from the virtual rooftops on Facebook makes me feel very outnumbered.
And since the vernal equinox was about a month ago, I can't exactly respond to 'Happy Easter' with 'Happy spring Equinox to you too!' as I did around Holidaymas in December with the winter solstice.
Now, I'm not saying that everyone wearing a cross, star of David, or whatever makes me instantly nervous. It's the really noisy ones that do -- the ones that probably would get offended if I said I wasn't Christian, who say they 'pray for my soul' whenever they see me and who pepper their emails and everyday speech with 'The Lord' this and 'GOD' that every other sentence.
Is this something I can maybe teach myself NOT to get so creeped out by? I've been working on it some over the years, but I swear my bumbling attempts are only making things worse and not better.
I gave up on Christianity a long time ago, then decided paganism was the way to go. This was about twenty years ago.
Over the last ten years I've become more and more (quietly and personally) devoted to my choice of religion, and I've come to where talking with someone who is very overtly Jesus-faithful in speech (answering the phone with 'Hello! Jesus loves you!' and the like) tends to make me uncomfortable. I'm not hiding in the broom closet and never really have, but with some family, co-workers, and most of the people in my hometown it isn't really an option to say to people around The Holidays that their (and forgive my use of this phrase) Jesus-bothering kind of, well, bothers me. It's great that they want to celebrate their faith, but shouting it from the virtual rooftops on Facebook makes me feel very outnumbered.
And since the vernal equinox was about a month ago, I can't exactly respond to 'Happy Easter' with 'Happy spring Equinox to you too!' as I did around Holidaymas in December with the winter solstice.
Now, I'm not saying that everyone wearing a cross, star of David, or whatever makes me instantly nervous. It's the really noisy ones that do -- the ones that probably would get offended if I said I wasn't Christian, who say they 'pray for my soul' whenever they see me and who pepper their emails and everyday speech with 'The Lord' this and 'GOD' that every other sentence.
Is this something I can maybe teach myself NOT to get so creeped out by? I've been working on it some over the years, but I swear my bumbling attempts are only making things worse and not better.
Well, I totes fucked this up at the grocery store yesterday, when the check-out kid kept pushing me about what I was doing for Easter and I finally snapped "I don't celebrate it! I'm Jewish!" (and honestly, I think he was just looking for an excuse to whine about how he has to work today, not really God-bothering), so I'm probably the wrong person to ask. But I think the way to go is probably just to say "Happy Easter" back, and then try to find more non-Christians to hang out with, either in person or virtually, so you don't feel so outnumbered.
posted by craichead at 11:05 AM on April 24, 2011
posted by craichead at 11:05 AM on April 24, 2011
I tend to be annoyed by a lot of overtly religious people too, and it might be helpful to think about this in a couple of different ways.
1) People who are fairly loud about their faith tend to consider their beliefs to be fundamental to their sense of self. Easter tends to be a big, tremendous deal for Christians, for example, and at some point they just want to spread some of their joy about this event around. Maybe if you thought more about it as them wanting you to be joyful (and not even necessarily in a creepy proselytizing way) will help minimize your feeling of them invading your space and shoving it in your face.
2) Sometimes really religious people just have their religious vocabulary so imbedded into their speech patterns and view of the world that everything they do and say just becomes really Christian, even if they don't necessarily want you to convert or feel uncomfortable. Some people I know sound like the King James Bible when they talk, and they don't even mean to do it.
I'm not sure if pithy spring solstice responses are going to get you to where you want to be. Maybe go through your facebook friends and defriend the ones that annoy you the most, or just block them from your newsfeed. I do think that eventually you might need to come to place where you can thank people when they wish you happy Easter, and then move on.
posted by pecknpah at 11:11 AM on April 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
1) People who are fairly loud about their faith tend to consider their beliefs to be fundamental to their sense of self. Easter tends to be a big, tremendous deal for Christians, for example, and at some point they just want to spread some of their joy about this event around. Maybe if you thought more about it as them wanting you to be joyful (and not even necessarily in a creepy proselytizing way) will help minimize your feeling of them invading your space and shoving it in your face.
2) Sometimes really religious people just have their religious vocabulary so imbedded into their speech patterns and view of the world that everything they do and say just becomes really Christian, even if they don't necessarily want you to convert or feel uncomfortable. Some people I know sound like the King James Bible when they talk, and they don't even mean to do it.
I'm not sure if pithy spring solstice responses are going to get you to where you want to be. Maybe go through your facebook friends and defriend the ones that annoy you the most, or just block them from your newsfeed. I do think that eventually you might need to come to place where you can thank people when they wish you happy Easter, and then move on.
posted by pecknpah at 11:11 AM on April 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
This morning while waiting for the elevator two neighbors came up to me. One said "Happy Easter!" and being the heathen I am completely forgot it was Easter but I just said "Happy Easter" back to him in the same way I'd say "how's it going?", "what's up?", or "nice weather we're having." It was idle chitchat. I didn't think of it as an opportunity to tell this stranger that I was not a Christian and let him know what team I was on.
I also don't subject myself to seeing my religious relatives' facebook statuses. And my circle of friends are either nontheists or at least non-practicing theists so I'm rarely told to have a blessed day. So we talk about whether the easter bunny has visited or make jokes about eggs today.
I really don't care what someone is, and prefer it when they keep their faith to themselves. But I'll tend to keep my mouth shut because I choose not to be bothered by it. I suggest you do something similar. You could get worked up by their constant praising of their lord and savior, or you can let it slide.
posted by birdherder at 11:13 AM on April 24, 2011 [11 favorites]
I also don't subject myself to seeing my religious relatives' facebook statuses. And my circle of friends are either nontheists or at least non-practicing theists so I'm rarely told to have a blessed day. So we talk about whether the easter bunny has visited or make jokes about eggs today.
I really don't care what someone is, and prefer it when they keep their faith to themselves. But I'll tend to keep my mouth shut because I choose not to be bothered by it. I suggest you do something similar. You could get worked up by their constant praising of their lord and savior, or you can let it slide.
posted by birdherder at 11:13 AM on April 24, 2011 [11 favorites]
When people say Happy Easter to me I say thank you and change the subject.
posted by k8t at 11:14 AM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by k8t at 11:14 AM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's ok to wish someone of a different religion happiness on their religious holidays- whether or not you partake of the holiday yourself. You are wishing them happiness, not that they attain religious salvation according to their wacko beliefs.
posted by jenkinsEar at 11:14 AM on April 24, 2011 [12 favorites]
posted by jenkinsEar at 11:14 AM on April 24, 2011 [12 favorites]
Eventually you just have to let go. Around Christmastime the "Merry Christmas" wishes at every single cashier transaction get ridiculously old. I'm not up to explaining that just because we're in Georgia, doesn't mean that every single person in the state is a Christian. It's far easier to just relax and move on. The person on the other end of the exchange is too simple to mean any harm by it.
posted by litnerd at 11:14 AM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by litnerd at 11:14 AM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't know that you have to do anything to make yourself more comfortable around overly noisy Christians. It's annoying, so be annoyed. I, too, used to be a Christian, but even then that kind of public nonsense always bothered me. Ick! I hate being "blessed" on someone's voicemail. It's just tacky.
posted by dchrssyr at 11:15 AM on April 24, 2011
posted by dchrssyr at 11:15 AM on April 24, 2011
If someone wishes you a "Happy Holidayyoudon'tcelebrate" they aren't out to offend you or make you feel bad. They are doing it out of good will. Selfishly, of course, because they are assuming that you celebrate the same holidays that they do. I say, "Thanks, you too". "Thanks", because they are being nice, and "you too" because if they are wishing ME Happy Easter, then they probably celebrate Easter themselves. I have not been a believer in anything since I was old enough to form intelligent opinions, and this is what I do. Rarely does this backlash, because I am not broadcasting my (minority) opinions to all the crazy people who would just love to "pray for me" or otherwise show how they are going to heaven and I am going straight to hell. Who cares? They are really just trying to be nice 95% of the time.
So yeah, nthing "just let it go". You aren't alone in this country, but like me, you are definitely a minority. Fight it in your own ways, or fight it in this way and deal with the barrage of crazies on a daily basis.
posted by two lights above the sea at 11:18 AM on April 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
So yeah, nthing "just let it go". You aren't alone in this country, but like me, you are definitely a minority. Fight it in your own ways, or fight it in this way and deal with the barrage of crazies on a daily basis.
posted by two lights above the sea at 11:18 AM on April 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
Don't worry about it. If you're talking about Easter and Christmas, they're not really Christian holidays anyway.
They couldn't even be bothered to change the name of the latter.
Round this way, "Happy Christmas" basically means: "Port and cheese for me all evening!"
posted by run"monty at 11:18 AM on April 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
They couldn't even be bothered to change the name of the latter.
Round this way, "Happy Christmas" basically means: "Port and cheese for me all evening!"
posted by run"monty at 11:18 AM on April 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
If someone Jesusy wishes you a Happy easter, and you can't just say, "Happy Easter!" back in the "how's it going with you?" sens, then say, "Yeah! Happy Easter! Did the big bunny bring you M&Ms?" because, really, ALL the Christian holidays that are celebrated in any public way are celebrated in a totally secular way. Fucking eggs and bunnies chocolate have nothing to do with Easter the Christian holiday. Much like Santa, Reindeer, and gifts have nothing to do with the Christian holiday of Christmas, really.
I am absolutely non-religious but I love Easter eggs and Santa. Someone trying to get Jesus on me is different than someone wishing me happy Easter.
posted by dirtdirt at 11:21 AM on April 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
I am absolutely non-religious but I love Easter eggs and Santa. Someone trying to get Jesus on me is different than someone wishing me happy Easter.
posted by dirtdirt at 11:21 AM on April 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
I just make a jokey response.
"Happy Easter."
"May the Bunny bring you many eggs."
posted by a humble nudibranch at 11:22 AM on April 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
"Happy Easter."
"May the Bunny bring you many eggs."
posted by a humble nudibranch at 11:22 AM on April 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
Honestly, when you feel threatened by people or like they're being adversarial to you in a way, I so much of the time it's because you have your own degree of adversarial-ness towards them that you're kind of projecting.
For example, I think people who walk around feeling like everyone is judging their looks or weird quirks, are often super judgmental about other peoples' looks or weird quirks. People who are insecure about their writing or artwork are often really judgmental about others' artwork.
Not to nitpick at you, but the way you talk about these Christians is a little snide. (And a lot of the answers here are kind of snide too.) It's like, Christians, aren't they weird pushy loonies who believe dumb things. And it seems like you interpret their actions in the worst possible light. That when someone tells you Happy Easter, it seems like you don't take it as the friendly attempt at rapport that it was intended to be, but rather a pushy assault and disrespect of your beliefs.
I think it might help to stop thinking of yourself as on different teams than these people, being snide about their religion, and interpreting what they do uncharitably. I think if you treated them as you would hope they would treat members of your religion, and fear that they would not, you would start feeling better about all this. Be forgiving, accepting, and gracious. If someone is happy about a holiday in their religion, be happy for them! If someone tells you Happy Easter, tell them "I hope you have a Happy Easter yourself!" and if you want, append that you don't celebrate Easter yourself. If someone tells you they're praying for you, return the sentiment in the way that would be appropriate for you. I'm not religious and I have people tell me God bless you all the time (usually homeless people) and I say God bless you too right back. Because it's a comfort to them. Receiving someone's expressions of friendliness and well-wishes isn't kowtowing to their religion.
posted by Ashley801 at 11:27 AM on April 24, 2011 [30 favorites]
For example, I think people who walk around feeling like everyone is judging their looks or weird quirks, are often super judgmental about other peoples' looks or weird quirks. People who are insecure about their writing or artwork are often really judgmental about others' artwork.
Not to nitpick at you, but the way you talk about these Christians is a little snide. (And a lot of the answers here are kind of snide too.) It's like, Christians, aren't they weird pushy loonies who believe dumb things. And it seems like you interpret their actions in the worst possible light. That when someone tells you Happy Easter, it seems like you don't take it as the friendly attempt at rapport that it was intended to be, but rather a pushy assault and disrespect of your beliefs.
I think it might help to stop thinking of yourself as on different teams than these people, being snide about their religion, and interpreting what they do uncharitably. I think if you treated them as you would hope they would treat members of your religion, and fear that they would not, you would start feeling better about all this. Be forgiving, accepting, and gracious. If someone is happy about a holiday in their religion, be happy for them! If someone tells you Happy Easter, tell them "I hope you have a Happy Easter yourself!" and if you want, append that you don't celebrate Easter yourself. If someone tells you they're praying for you, return the sentiment in the way that would be appropriate for you. I'm not religious and I have people tell me God bless you all the time (usually homeless people) and I say God bless you too right back. Because it's a comfort to them. Receiving someone's expressions of friendliness and well-wishes isn't kowtowing to their religion.
posted by Ashley801 at 11:27 AM on April 24, 2011 [30 favorites]
I'm an unbeliever, and yet I'm completely pleased to handle money with "In God We Trust" on it. If that stuff bothers you, send it all to me.
I just say thanks! or Same to you! or whatever. People bless me, I'm grateful. Thus far, no one has offered to perform an exorcism on me, so whatever I'm doing, must be working.
posted by Ideefixe at 11:34 AM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
I just say thanks! or Same to you! or whatever. People bless me, I'm grateful. Thus far, no one has offered to perform an exorcism on me, so whatever I'm doing, must be working.
posted by Ideefixe at 11:34 AM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think if you treated them as you would hope they would treat members of your religion, and fear that they would not, you would start feeling better about all this.So here's the thing that I think it may be hard for you to wrap your head around. I can't imagine the reverse situation. I can't imagine that I would ask a stranger what they were doing for Passover, and if they said "nothing much", that I would demand to know why not, which is what happened to me in the grocery store yesterday. And if I did that, it would be considered really weird behavior, and people would act as if I were really odd and possibly being rude or losing my marbles. So I can't imagine how I would want a Christian to behave if the situations were reversed. The situation would never be reversed, because I live in a culture where Christianity is dominant and other religions aren't.
posted by craichead at 11:40 AM on April 24, 2011 [12 favorites]
As an atheist, I generally reply in kind. I mean, if I say "Happy Easter" to them... aren't I wishing them a happy easter? And assuming they're not a douchebag, I _do_ want them to have a Happy Easter.
Now, if they start pushing to know about my day, I'll tell them I don't celebrate. Here in California that usually ends the conversation. In Georgia, I'd start getting the rude "why not" line of questioning, which I would answer with "I don't believe in God" or "I'm an atheist" and then if they continued I'd just walk away (I suppose that doesnt work if its a coworker or something, but a similar conversation shutdown is appropriate).
I mean, I'd be as comfortable saying "Happy Equinox" or "Happy Passover" (since I live in a Jewish neighborhood, this comes up at least as often as Happy Easter), it's all the same to me.
posted by wildcrdj at 11:45 AM on April 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Now, if they start pushing to know about my day, I'll tell them I don't celebrate. Here in California that usually ends the conversation. In Georgia, I'd start getting the rude "why not" line of questioning, which I would answer with "I don't believe in God" or "I'm an atheist" and then if they continued I'd just walk away (I suppose that doesnt work if its a coworker or something, but a similar conversation shutdown is appropriate).
I mean, I'd be as comfortable saying "Happy Equinox" or "Happy Passover" (since I live in a Jewish neighborhood, this comes up at least as often as Happy Easter), it's all the same to me.
posted by wildcrdj at 11:45 AM on April 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
FWIW, I am not Christian (nor even from a Christian culture). but I wish other people "Happy Christmas" at Christmastime. If you can say "Have a nice day" or "Happy Birthday" to someone, you can say effectively "Have a nice time over Christmas / Easter / whatever" in much the same way.
I don't wish people "Happy Easter" in those precise words because that's not a phrase I hear being used. But we might exchange a "Have a good Easter!" and "Yeah, you too."
Whatever else it might mean to some, Easter is a point in the calendar where many people have a bit of time off, and it just seems churlish not wish them a good time doing whatever it is that they'll be doing.
Now I can sympathize with your dilemma as I used to feel some of that when I was much younger. But truth is that was more about my young self being a socially awkward and insensitive dork who overthought this stuff than about some real matter of importance or principle.
For me, if there's a principle to be applied it's: "Here's a human being trying to be nice to you, be nice to them back."
posted by philipy at 11:47 AM on April 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
I don't wish people "Happy Easter" in those precise words because that's not a phrase I hear being used. But we might exchange a "Have a good Easter!" and "Yeah, you too."
Whatever else it might mean to some, Easter is a point in the calendar where many people have a bit of time off, and it just seems churlish not wish them a good time doing whatever it is that they'll be doing.
Now I can sympathize with your dilemma as I used to feel some of that when I was much younger. But truth is that was more about my young self being a socially awkward and insensitive dork who overthought this stuff than about some real matter of importance or principle.
For me, if there's a principle to be applied it's: "Here's a human being trying to be nice to you, be nice to them back."
posted by philipy at 11:47 AM on April 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
I'm a Christian, and the excessive Jesusing makes me uncomfortable. It's. . . well, people practice the religion in a lot of different ways, I guess.
I just say "Thank you!" if it's someone I don't know, or "Happy Easter!" if it's someone I do know and who knows what I'm like. Before I was a Christian, I'd say "I know, isn't it a beautiful day?" if it was a beautiful day, or "Yeah, too bad about the weather, huh?" if it wasn't. The weather is something that the speaker and I genuinely have in common, so I just focus on that.
posted by KathrynT at 11:49 AM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
I just say "Thank you!" if it's someone I don't know, or "Happy Easter!" if it's someone I do know and who knows what I'm like. Before I was a Christian, I'd say "I know, isn't it a beautiful day?" if it was a beautiful day, or "Yeah, too bad about the weather, huh?" if it wasn't. The weather is something that the speaker and I genuinely have in common, so I just focus on that.
posted by KathrynT at 11:49 AM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
craichead, did that cashier "demand" to know why you weren't doing much for Easter, and did they really act like you were being really odd, rude, and losing your marbles?? Or was it, as you said earlier, just a bored cashier looking for a chance to complain about having to work on a holiday? This is what I mean about interpreting things charitably vs. looking for the worst possible hyperbolic interpretation.
Yes, when you're in a place where the dominant culture is X and not Y, some people will go around assuming that everyone practices X and not Y. But just simply assuming that everyone shares a dominant culture is just being ignorant, it's not being hostile or attacking. Life is a lot better if you give people the benefit of the doubt in that way.
posted by Ashley801 at 11:50 AM on April 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Yes, when you're in a place where the dominant culture is X and not Y, some people will go around assuming that everyone practices X and not Y. But just simply assuming that everyone shares a dominant culture is just being ignorant, it's not being hostile or attacking. Life is a lot better if you give people the benefit of the doubt in that way.
posted by Ashley801 at 11:50 AM on April 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm Hindu. I wish people a Happy Easter because we get it off as a holiday here in Canada. If people wish me a happy Easter I say thanks and go about my day. People are just tying to be nice, not convert you. You're making this into a bigger deal then it actually is.
posted by chunking express at 11:54 AM on April 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by chunking express at 11:54 AM on April 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
craichead, did that cashier "demand" to know why you weren't doing much for Easter, and did they really act like you were being really odd, rude, and losing your marbles?? Or was it, as you said earlier, just a bored cashier looking for a chance to complain about having to work on a holiday?I didn't say that he acted like I was odd, rude or losing my marbles. I said that's how I would be treated if I acted the same way that he did, which is why your advice to imagine that the situations were reversed doesn't work.
I think he was probably bored and looking for an opportunity to whine. But it still put me in an awkward spot, and it's not an awkward spot that I would ever put anyone else in, because I don't ever inquire about strangers' religious observance. And I guess I'm a little unclear about why it's my responsibility, and not his, to be the understanding, charitable, empathetic one. Do Christians not have obligations of empathy and understanding, or is that just for the rest of us? And if it's the latter, could you cut it out with the lectures about treating others the way we'd like to be treated?
posted by craichead at 12:00 PM on April 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
When someone wishes me well at the time of their particular religious festival, I'm afraid I can't see much merit in being a curmudgeon about it, just 'cos I'm an atheist. I've sent friends cards for Eid and Diwali, despite not sharing any of the religious beliefs of my Muslim, Hindu and Sikh friends. Christmas is so ubiquitous (and so removed from religion in the UK anyway) that our family celebrate it as a generic winter festival with no feelings of hypocrisy, or any need to rename it or dress it up as a pagan thing. Wishing someone a Merry Christmas in a secular society has become a way of wishing someone health and happiness at a time when many perople traditionally spend time with their loved ones. If I wish someone a Happy Christmas and they choose to see my greeting as an endorsement of their religious beliefs, they're probably reading too much into it. But that's up to them.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 12:02 PM on April 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 12:02 PM on April 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
I work for a fabulous woman who is a Modern Orthodox Jew. Nearly all of our customers are openly Jewish, most figure out very quickly that I'm not orthodox, and many can tell that I'm not Jewish at all.
Every single one of our customers has wished me a happy Easter.
They don't know I'm an atheist. And I don't feel compelled to explain, because it's said in passing, as a pleasanter, and almost always as they're half out the door.
I'm very lucky that my boss loves when I wish her a happy zombie Jesus day
If you can't pretend you're meeting lots and lots of Jews who recognize that their religion is not dominant, and yet still wish to impart a pleasant holiday message, then just smile and say thanks. As my friend Kevin says, the only thing you're required to do with a gift is receive it.
Now, as for the people who arerude and nosy, I just politely end the conversation.
posted by bilabial at 12:09 PM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Every single one of our customers has wished me a happy Easter.
They don't know I'm an atheist. And I don't feel compelled to explain, because it's said in passing, as a pleasanter, and almost always as they're half out the door.
I'm very lucky that my boss loves when I wish her a happy zombie Jesus day
If you can't pretend you're meeting lots and lots of Jews who recognize that their religion is not dominant, and yet still wish to impart a pleasant holiday message, then just smile and say thanks. As my friend Kevin says, the only thing you're required to do with a gift is receive it.
Now, as for the people who arerude and nosy, I just politely end the conversation.
posted by bilabial at 12:09 PM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
I see no problem with people saying "Happy Easter", or "Happy Christmas" or Happy Hanukkah". These holidays or festivals are there, whether or not we follow the religion or culture that inspired them. However...
(answering the phone with 'Hello! Jesus loves you!' and the like)
... is objectionable, or it least I would find it so if I actually came across anyone who acted like that. Personally I'd take the view that this is being rude and presumptuous by pushing their religion in your face, so they deserve to have yours pushed right back (or in my case, my atheism) and see how they feel about that. But that's just me. I'm afraid I simply don't tolerate this stuff at all. You may not want to be combative that way, but I've found that if you do respond in kind it tends to kill the problem on future occasions.
posted by Decani at 12:16 PM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
(answering the phone with 'Hello! Jesus loves you!' and the like)
... is objectionable, or it least I would find it so if I actually came across anyone who acted like that. Personally I'd take the view that this is being rude and presumptuous by pushing their religion in your face, so they deserve to have yours pushed right back (or in my case, my atheism) and see how they feel about that. But that's just me. I'm afraid I simply don't tolerate this stuff at all. You may not want to be combative that way, but I've found that if you do respond in kind it tends to kill the problem on future occasions.
posted by Decani at 12:16 PM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
History validates your trepidations all too amply, I'm afraid, as do the many contemporary deadly enmities to be found over most of the world between groups of people whose differences are mainly differences of faith, but one of the greatest virtues of Christianity, now and historically, is that even its extreme adherents can usually (with notable exceptions such as with the American Indians) be relied upon to attempt to convert you for a prolonged, potentially indefinite period rather than simply killing you out of hand.
In other words, I think you should savor, appreciate, and respond encouragingly to these attempts to share the Good News, because they are preferable by far to many of the alternatives.
posted by jamjam at 12:17 PM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
In other words, I think you should savor, appreciate, and respond encouragingly to these attempts to share the Good News, because they are preferable by far to many of the alternatives.
posted by jamjam at 12:17 PM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
You sort of just have to ignore it. The example you give - people answering the phone with "Hello, Jesus loves you!" would really make me very uncomfortable too. But it wouldn't necessarily make me feel uncomfortable in a 'something wrong with me' sense, it'd make me feel uncomfortable in a 'something wrong with him' sense. Like, does this person have any idea how WEIRD and narrow-mindedly obsessive and creepy that sounds? Does this person have ANY non-Christian friends??
And I think that freedom that I have, to look on that sort of behavior as a weird quirk, comes from the cultural environment (yeah, San Francisco!). So you may find that, if being surrounded by intense Christianity or the trappings thereof puts you on edge, it helps to move somewhere else - somewhere where the store clerk wishing you a happy easter doesn't put you on edge, at least after a while, because you get the feeling he really means "bite-the-ears-off-a-chocolate-rabbit day" rather than "festival celebrating the rebirth of the Lord Jesus who is the only hope for salvation of the world and you personally".
Probably not enough of a reason to move in itself. But I know enough people who've moved for other reasons and then found that the freedom from evangelism is a huge relief.
posted by Lady Li at 12:18 PM on April 24, 2011
And I think that freedom that I have, to look on that sort of behavior as a weird quirk, comes from the cultural environment (yeah, San Francisco!). So you may find that, if being surrounded by intense Christianity or the trappings thereof puts you on edge, it helps to move somewhere else - somewhere where the store clerk wishing you a happy easter doesn't put you on edge, at least after a while, because you get the feeling he really means "bite-the-ears-off-a-chocolate-rabbit day" rather than "festival celebrating the rebirth of the Lord Jesus who is the only hope for salvation of the world and you personally".
Probably not enough of a reason to move in itself. But I know enough people who've moved for other reasons and then found that the freedom from evangelism is a huge relief.
posted by Lady Li at 12:18 PM on April 24, 2011
As a devout Christian, I also "often feel seriously awkward and uncomfortable talking to faithful people on/around/about Christian holidays." I was raised that one doesn't do a lot of rah-rahing about Jesus in public. It can be rude and offputting (as you point out), and I also feel like Really Big Emotional Displays are best kept mostly private, and if you love Jesus THAT MUCH, it's between you and Jesus, not you and THE ENTIRE WORLD. I often have to stay away from Facebook for a couple days around big religious holidays because 8 zillion people posting "He is risen!" annoys the crap out of me.
(It makes me think of two quotes -- Paul Fussel in "Class" wrote something like, "Surely Jesus does love proles, but is there any reason to make such noise about it?" And on a less silly note, St. Francis of Assisi: "Preach the Gospel at all times. If necessary, use words." I sometimes feel like if you're STARTING with the words and the noise and the in-your-face-ness, that displays an uncertain faith.)
Anyway, I just roll with the seasonal greetings, since they're kindly meant and often just social grease (i.e., cashiers saying Merry Christmas) which it seems like you agree with. The people who want to make a Big Honkin' Deal I avoid, ignore, or smile politely and hope they STFU about it shortly. I haven't really found anything else you can do unless you're looking to fight with them about it ... which personally, I'm not. I want it to be over faster, not to get stuck in a 20-minute discussion of it!
Anyway, sometimes thinking of the Paul Fussel quote makes me feel better. I also remind myself that we were raised differently and a lot of the difference is cultural; I was raised in a more religiously-diverse environment than most Americans (as well as one where Big Emotional Displays about religion were considered relatively embarrassing), so it bothers me more than it might bother someone who's always lived in a 99% Christian Zone. And I remind myself that, like clockwork, half these people will forget Jesus two days after Easter/Christmas/whatever is over and I won't have to listen to such a large quantity of excruciatingly embarrassing displays of religious faith for at least six months, so there's that.
But yeah, I don't have a good solution either besides avoid, ignore, and feel uncomfortable.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:20 PM on April 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
(It makes me think of two quotes -- Paul Fussel in "Class" wrote something like, "Surely Jesus does love proles, but is there any reason to make such noise about it?" And on a less silly note, St. Francis of Assisi: "Preach the Gospel at all times. If necessary, use words." I sometimes feel like if you're STARTING with the words and the noise and the in-your-face-ness, that displays an uncertain faith.)
Anyway, I just roll with the seasonal greetings, since they're kindly meant and often just social grease (i.e., cashiers saying Merry Christmas) which it seems like you agree with. The people who want to make a Big Honkin' Deal I avoid, ignore, or smile politely and hope they STFU about it shortly. I haven't really found anything else you can do unless you're looking to fight with them about it ... which personally, I'm not. I want it to be over faster, not to get stuck in a 20-minute discussion of it!
Anyway, sometimes thinking of the Paul Fussel quote makes me feel better. I also remind myself that we were raised differently and a lot of the difference is cultural; I was raised in a more religiously-diverse environment than most Americans (as well as one where Big Emotional Displays about religion were considered relatively embarrassing), so it bothers me more than it might bother someone who's always lived in a 99% Christian Zone. And I remind myself that, like clockwork, half these people will forget Jesus two days after Easter/Christmas/whatever is over and I won't have to listen to such a large quantity of excruciatingly embarrassing displays of religious faith for at least six months, so there's that.
But yeah, I don't have a good solution either besides avoid, ignore, and feel uncomfortable.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:20 PM on April 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
I was raised in a Christian culture, but I'm not a believer and was never required to be one.
I take greetings like this as social noise. They way the teller at the bank doesn't really care how you are, the vast majority of people who wish you happy Easter or Christmas or whatever also don't really care - it's a Thing You Say at This Time of Year. There will be exceptions, of course, from people who really want to save your soul, but most of the time, the appropriate response is "Thanks, you too!" or something equally innocuous and short.
posted by rtha at 12:20 PM on April 24, 2011
I take greetings like this as social noise. They way the teller at the bank doesn't really care how you are, the vast majority of people who wish you happy Easter or Christmas or whatever also don't really care - it's a Thing You Say at This Time of Year. There will be exceptions, of course, from people who really want to save your soul, but most of the time, the appropriate response is "Thanks, you too!" or something equally innocuous and short.
posted by rtha at 12:20 PM on April 24, 2011
Oh, btw, you can try something like, "My mother always taught me not to discuss religion in public" said very pleasantly or, if you want to be a bit more pointed, "My mother always taught me it was rude to discuss religion in public." There's still enough of a cultural memory of the etiquette idea that one doesn't discuss religion or politics (i.e., highly polarizing topics) in social settings that a large percentage of people will drop it, especially if you say it with a smile.
It doesn't solve your phone-answering "Jesus loves you" people or a lot of the drive-by Jesusing that you (and I) find so irritating, but it at least extracts you from awkward conversations without extending them OR engaging with the content of them. (Because if you engage with the content, it often comes back to haunt you.)
But Lady Li is right, moving might be the best way to deal with it. Like, the Catholic hospital here would reprimand employees answering the phone with Jesusy things because it's unprofessional. Even my PRIEST doesn't go, "God bless you!" when he picks up the phone (unless you sneeze). The acceptability of that kind of stuff is VERY regional.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:25 PM on April 24, 2011
It doesn't solve your phone-answering "Jesus loves you" people or a lot of the drive-by Jesusing that you (and I) find so irritating, but it at least extracts you from awkward conversations without extending them OR engaging with the content of them. (Because if you engage with the content, it often comes back to haunt you.)
But Lady Li is right, moving might be the best way to deal with it. Like, the Catholic hospital here would reprimand employees answering the phone with Jesusy things because it's unprofessional. Even my PRIEST doesn't go, "God bless you!" when he picks up the phone (unless you sneeze). The acceptability of that kind of stuff is VERY regional.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:25 PM on April 24, 2011
(hand injury, please excuse typing)
i was at a big chain drug store 2 weeks ago and as i am strolling about the store all i can hear is the checkout lady shouting "happy easter" and i thought "huh' easter must be this weekend". when it is my turn to check out i look behind me and those in line with me are a pretty diverse group and likely not christian/?...so i pay and and get her enthusiastic easter wishes. i later discover that easter is 2 weeks away. the whole incident rolled around in my noggin until i could stand it no more. i called the store yesterday and reminded the manager that their clientele was a diverse group and that such greetings were likely alienating some people. i said that the i knew that the employee meant no harm yada yada...just an "fyi" from a loyal customer. i made no mention of the fact that i am an atheist. all in all, it went very well. use your voice to let owners and mngmt know (respectfully) how you feel.
posted by futz at 12:36 PM on April 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
i was at a big chain drug store 2 weeks ago and as i am strolling about the store all i can hear is the checkout lady shouting "happy easter" and i thought "huh' easter must be this weekend". when it is my turn to check out i look behind me and those in line with me are a pretty diverse group and likely not christian/?...so i pay and and get her enthusiastic easter wishes. i later discover that easter is 2 weeks away. the whole incident rolled around in my noggin until i could stand it no more. i called the store yesterday and reminded the manager that their clientele was a diverse group and that such greetings were likely alienating some people. i said that the i knew that the employee meant no harm yada yada...just an "fyi" from a loyal customer. i made no mention of the fact that i am an atheist. all in all, it went very well. use your voice to let owners and mngmt know (respectfully) how you feel.
posted by futz at 12:36 PM on April 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I'm with craichead on this one -- it's a little hard to take this sort of behavior as "just being polite" when the fact is that the very same "politeness" on my part would be taken as an attack. Hell, I've had people call me to task for wearing heavy metal t-shirts on Christmas, as if it's reasonable to expect perfect strangers to choose their clothing to honor holidays they don't celebrate. I'm sure a lot of people think they're "just being polite" by bringing up religion all the time... but I also think there's a large dose of norming and othering going on, here, and that is very uncomfortable for "others" who don't share the "norm".
I know a few Pagans who tend to respond to "Happy [Christian thing]" with a cheerful "Blessings!" This is usually generic enough to surprise rather than anger God-bothering types, while coming across as exactly what it is to those in the know. Would that work for you?
posted by vorfeed at 12:47 PM on April 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
I know a few Pagans who tend to respond to "Happy [Christian thing]" with a cheerful "Blessings!" This is usually generic enough to surprise rather than anger God-bothering types, while coming across as exactly what it is to those in the know. Would that work for you?
posted by vorfeed at 12:47 PM on April 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
Isn't Easter a saxon Goddess/Mother Figure anyway? This one should be right up your alley.
posted by ServSci at 12:48 PM on April 24, 2011
posted by ServSci at 12:48 PM on April 24, 2011
I'm a very staunch atheist, but if I think of it I wish people happy Easter, happy MLK day, happy Passover, happy Valentine's (I'm perpetually single), happy Chinese new year (I'm not Chinese), happy St Pat's (I'm not Irish) happy Presidents' day, etc etc. I just like holidays, particularly when they involve not being at work or getting to eat special treats. And I like the meanings behind the holidays - Easter marks spring and new beginnings and fertility, and that makes me happy. I don't owe anyone that explanation when I wish them happy Easter, tho.
And when people wish me a happy holiday, I say thanks - and I don't read anything into it other than social pleasantry. If someone got in my face about Jesus being my Lord and Savior, I'd have to either disagree politely or get the hell away. But that's quite a different scenario.
posted by bunderful at 12:57 PM on April 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
And when people wish me a happy holiday, I say thanks - and I don't read anything into it other than social pleasantry. If someone got in my face about Jesus being my Lord and Savior, I'd have to either disagree politely or get the hell away. But that's quite a different scenario.
posted by bunderful at 12:57 PM on April 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
makes me feel very outnumbered.
Haha, you are outnumbered! Welcome to being a minority. I'm not trying to be really snarky, but you are hardly alone in this. And yes it's really annoying, but I wonder if it's not more annoying to you because you grew up Christian and didn't have to deal with this facet of life until later.
With Easter, I generally go along with it, because I have this probably irrational fear that they might decide to form a mob and kill me. If I'm feeling brave, I might say "Thanks, I'm actually Jewish, but" *big smile* "I love the chocolate and flowers! Happy Easter to you!" With other holidays, I usually say, "Oh I don't celebrate Christmas, so" *big smile* "luckily I don't have to deal with the mall this time of year!" or whatever. And then I vent to another non-Christian friend for a while, and forget about it.
If it's a more in-depth conversation than just an exchange of greetings, you could say something about their holiday and your holiday sharing common pagan origins, and isn't that nice.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 1:00 PM on April 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Haha, you are outnumbered! Welcome to being a minority. I'm not trying to be really snarky, but you are hardly alone in this. And yes it's really annoying, but I wonder if it's not more annoying to you because you grew up Christian and didn't have to deal with this facet of life until later.
With Easter, I generally go along with it, because I have this probably irrational fear that they might decide to form a mob and kill me. If I'm feeling brave, I might say "Thanks, I'm actually Jewish, but" *big smile* "I love the chocolate and flowers! Happy Easter to you!" With other holidays, I usually say, "Oh I don't celebrate Christmas, so" *big smile* "luckily I don't have to deal with the mall this time of year!" or whatever. And then I vent to another non-Christian friend for a while, and forget about it.
If it's a more in-depth conversation than just an exchange of greetings, you could say something about their holiday and your holiday sharing common pagan origins, and isn't that nice.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 1:00 PM on April 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm in a Christian and am in a situation directly opposite yours. For work, I find myself often in countries with different religions. The holiday's are different, the manner of worship, etc. It often makes me feel uncomfortable to be the odd man out, particularly since I deeply respect many of these people I work with there and I value their friendship and would never want to get in the way of their personal beliefs or their particular rituals.
My advice to you and I mean this in the nicest possible way: Get over yourself and get over the issue.
No matter what the situation everyone finds themselves at some point in their life as the odd-man out. You're simply the odd-man out in an issue that is often highly polarized. Also, as you said it does make you feel outnumbered. Sadly, you ARE outnumbered. Basic available statistics show that compared to Islam, Christianity or even something more esoteric as tribal Animists, you ARE outnumbered. So unless you're going to go on a massive evangelistic campaign, that fact isn't likely to change anytime soon.
Really, if they're not being overtly and maliciously antagonistic (and perhaps they are, though I'm assuming not) then what they're doing is out of genuine belief and it's your problem, not theirs. Your choices basically are:
If they simply bother you: Avoid them unilaterally.
If you feel it's a personal attack on your beliefs: Confront them and explain how they make you uncomfortable and ask them to tone it down or be met with kind.
If it is a feeling on "unequalness": Throw it back at them in kind (broad example: when summer solstice comes, greet them in the way they would greet you during Easter.)
If you can't find a solution: Convert them.
Honestly, unless you have the bad luck to run into a freaky, ultra-right, intolerant twit (which are fewer and farther between then most people really realize ... at least where I live) most people will be very easy to talk to about this situation.
posted by damiano99 at 1:30 PM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
My advice to you and I mean this in the nicest possible way: Get over yourself and get over the issue.
No matter what the situation everyone finds themselves at some point in their life as the odd-man out. You're simply the odd-man out in an issue that is often highly polarized. Also, as you said it does make you feel outnumbered. Sadly, you ARE outnumbered. Basic available statistics show that compared to Islam, Christianity or even something more esoteric as tribal Animists, you ARE outnumbered. So unless you're going to go on a massive evangelistic campaign, that fact isn't likely to change anytime soon.
Really, if they're not being overtly and maliciously antagonistic (and perhaps they are, though I'm assuming not) then what they're doing is out of genuine belief and it's your problem, not theirs. Your choices basically are:
If they simply bother you: Avoid them unilaterally.
If you feel it's a personal attack on your beliefs: Confront them and explain how they make you uncomfortable and ask them to tone it down or be met with kind.
If it is a feeling on "unequalness": Throw it back at them in kind (broad example: when summer solstice comes, greet them in the way they would greet you during Easter.)
If you can't find a solution: Convert them.
Honestly, unless you have the bad luck to run into a freaky, ultra-right, intolerant twit (which are fewer and farther between then most people really realize ... at least where I live) most people will be very easy to talk to about this situation.
posted by damiano99 at 1:30 PM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
I've lived in various cultures different to my own where I did not have any particular connection to the national holiday they were celebrating, either because it had a particular ethnic/religious/national component to it that I did not share. Not once did I ever feel aggravated when they wished me "happy X day!" or its equivalent in the local language; nor did I ever feel the need to point out to them that that holiday had no particular meaning to me.
I now live in a western country where 'easter' is a celebrated holiday by many, and I am a committed atheist. For me easter is meaningless then (other than the fact that it's two public holidays and so shit is closed sometimes), but it doesn't occur to me to thrust that into the faces of people who are celebrating.
As someone noted above, people who wish you these things are not doing it to aggravate you. Wishing you a happy holiday is something very different than people getting up in your face telling you they are praying for your eternal soul, etc, and my answer is not directed at that kind of behaviour. But for innocuous well-wishing, I think this is really on you to just accept with good grace, say, "thank you", and move on with your day.
posted by modernnomad at 1:34 PM on April 24, 2011
I now live in a western country where 'easter' is a celebrated holiday by many, and I am a committed atheist. For me easter is meaningless then (other than the fact that it's two public holidays and so shit is closed sometimes), but it doesn't occur to me to thrust that into the faces of people who are celebrating.
As someone noted above, people who wish you these things are not doing it to aggravate you. Wishing you a happy holiday is something very different than people getting up in your face telling you they are praying for your eternal soul, etc, and my answer is not directed at that kind of behaviour. But for innocuous well-wishing, I think this is really on you to just accept with good grace, say, "thank you", and move on with your day.
posted by modernnomad at 1:34 PM on April 24, 2011
Can we not compare traveling to being a religious minority in your own country? Because if you do that, you kind of make it sound like I'm an interloper in the place where I've lived my whole life.
posted by craichead at 1:52 PM on April 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by craichead at 1:52 PM on April 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
Modernnomad is right, don't be so precious. If someone says 'Happy Easter' or 'Happy Christmas' or 'Happy Hanukkah' or anything else to you they're just being friendly, so smile and say 'And Happy Easter to you' and move on. This isn't about them trying to inflict their religious beliefs on you, it's about you being polite to other people. I'm sure you'd consider yourself a tolerant person - so show some tolerance to others who mean you absolutely no harm.
posted by joannemullen at 1:54 PM on April 24, 2011
posted by joannemullen at 1:54 PM on April 24, 2011
Sorry craichead, I wasn't talking about travelling -- as I said, these were situations were I lived for many years in other places.
But in any event, I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone should feel like an interloper in their 'home' country, but rather that when you live in a pluralistic society, if you get bent out of shape every time someone wishes you a happy holiday for a holiday you don't celebrate, you're a) not really doing justice to the idea of pluralism and b) you're going be a pretty miserable person a lot of the time.
posted by modernnomad at 1:59 PM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
But in any event, I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone should feel like an interloper in their 'home' country, but rather that when you live in a pluralistic society, if you get bent out of shape every time someone wishes you a happy holiday for a holiday you don't celebrate, you're a) not really doing justice to the idea of pluralism and b) you're going be a pretty miserable person a lot of the time.
posted by modernnomad at 1:59 PM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Not to be pedantic but we have to compare it to have some sort of common ground to discuss it. My main point was simply that I understand what it means to be a religous minority. I spend most of my time overseas and so it's not as if I spend 2 days here and there. It's months on end in places where I'm a minority, often in places where my country is reviled and more often in places where any foreigner, regardless of country is treated in a xenophobic way.
True, not in my own country but really that's irrevalent. If the issue is that you feel like a minority in your country because of your religious views, then you have to simply find a way to adjust in your mind, because you are one. It's not a conspiracy it's just numbers.
posted by damiano99 at 2:56 PM on April 24, 2011
True, not in my own country but really that's irrevalent. If the issue is that you feel like a minority in your country because of your religious views, then you have to simply find a way to adjust in your mind, because you are one. It's not a conspiracy it's just numbers.
posted by damiano99 at 2:56 PM on April 24, 2011
If you ask me, doing justice to the idea of pluralism means living according to your own beliefs, whether that makes you "a pretty miserable person a lot of the time" or not.
posted by vorfeed at 3:02 PM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by vorfeed at 3:02 PM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: And I guess I'm a little unclear about why it's my responsibility, and not his, to be the understanding, charitable, empathetic one. Do Christians not have obligations of empathy and understanding, or is that just for the rest of us? And if it's the latter, could you cut it out with the lectures about treating others the way we'd like to be treated?
I get that this topic makes you upset. But the OP specifically asked: Is this something I can maybe teach myself NOT to get so creeped out by? The question is about how to *not* be upset by it.
The OP described his feelings using these words: awkward, very outnumbered, instantly nervous, creeped out. Those are emotions people feel towards those they see as enemies out to do them harm.
That is why I think if he stops seeing them as enemies, and he stops seeing them as people out to do him harm, he won't have those emotions anymore. There is a percentage of fanatics, as in any group, who would like to harm people. But the vast majority of Christians, even devout Christians, aren't out to harm anyone.
Of course, everyone should be understanding, charitable, and empathic. Sometimes in life though we're faced with people who aren't, and then we have to decide what our part is going to be in that situation. Definitely, we can go "fuck you too then" and be mutually annoyed, antagonistic, suspicious, etc. But I don't think that gets us anywhere. I don't think we can get to a general culture of tolerance by saying "well I'll only be accepting/gracious of the practices of others IF I don't encounter any individuals who aren't accepting of mine." You said I can't wrap my head around what it it's like to be the non-mainstream person in a situation like that, but you couldn't be more wrong about that. In my life I've tried being the angry, offended non-mainstream person, and the attempting-to-be-gracious one, and I PERSONALLY believe that the latter gets you much closer to a place where everyone is treating each other respectfully.
posted by Ashley801 at 3:41 PM on April 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
I get that this topic makes you upset. But the OP specifically asked: Is this something I can maybe teach myself NOT to get so creeped out by? The question is about how to *not* be upset by it.
The OP described his feelings using these words: awkward, very outnumbered, instantly nervous, creeped out. Those are emotions people feel towards those they see as enemies out to do them harm.
That is why I think if he stops seeing them as enemies, and he stops seeing them as people out to do him harm, he won't have those emotions anymore. There is a percentage of fanatics, as in any group, who would like to harm people. But the vast majority of Christians, even devout Christians, aren't out to harm anyone.
Of course, everyone should be understanding, charitable, and empathic. Sometimes in life though we're faced with people who aren't, and then we have to decide what our part is going to be in that situation. Definitely, we can go "fuck you too then" and be mutually annoyed, antagonistic, suspicious, etc. But I don't think that gets us anywhere. I don't think we can get to a general culture of tolerance by saying "well I'll only be accepting/gracious of the practices of others IF I don't encounter any individuals who aren't accepting of mine." You said I can't wrap my head around what it it's like to be the non-mainstream person in a situation like that, but you couldn't be more wrong about that. In my life I've tried being the angry, offended non-mainstream person, and the attempting-to-be-gracious one, and I PERSONALLY believe that the latter gets you much closer to a place where everyone is treating each other respectfully.
posted by Ashley801 at 3:41 PM on April 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
In the grocery-store interaction, in response to "What are you doing for Easter," you could always say something like "Sitting home with my feet up on the couch, watching a movie - I don't celebrate the day" or "Going for a hike - I'm Jewish, so it's a normal weekend day for me" or something plain and factual like that. I really think that if more people did this calmly as a point of fact, there'd be less of the assuming done across the board because each time it happens, the questioner learns (or is reminded) that not everyone is on the same religious page. I grew up in a pretty faith-diverse part of the country and I'd say that's generally how things went down - you don't assume you know anyone else's faith, and you let people self-identify, and generally be polite if people are just sharing seasonal well-wishes in a way that's not a direct question to you, and if someone happens to misstep, oh, oops, apologies, and move on.
posted by Miko at 4:32 PM on April 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Miko at 4:32 PM on April 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm Jewish. When someone wishes me a Happy Easter or Merry Christmas or whatever, I just say, "Thanks, same to you," and leave it at that.
posted by SisterHavana at 6:21 PM on April 24, 2011
posted by SisterHavana at 6:21 PM on April 24, 2011
If they're a random stranger just wishing you "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Easter" or whatever, just smile, thank them, and say it back. They're just trying to be nice.
If they are trying to strike up a more complicated conversation about "are you doing anything fun for Easter/Christmas/insert holiday here"? They're also just trying to be nice and make small talk; you can either tell them the truth ("I actually don't celebrate [holiday] as such"), give 'em a little of what they want to hear (i.e., tell them "some friends are coming over for dinner" but you leave out the part about "oh, and it's a Solstice dinner we're having instead"), or you just brush it off ("eh, I prefer to keep things small").
As for the people who answer the phone with "Jesus loves you" all the time, I'd just quietly chuckle to yourself, remind yourself about that Bible Verse where Jesus Himself said that it was the hypocrites who broadcast their faith all the time, figure that they'll get theirs in the end, and move on.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:53 PM on April 24, 2011
If they are trying to strike up a more complicated conversation about "are you doing anything fun for Easter/Christmas/insert holiday here"? They're also just trying to be nice and make small talk; you can either tell them the truth ("I actually don't celebrate [holiday] as such"), give 'em a little of what they want to hear (i.e., tell them "some friends are coming over for dinner" but you leave out the part about "oh, and it's a Solstice dinner we're having instead"), or you just brush it off ("eh, I prefer to keep things small").
As for the people who answer the phone with "Jesus loves you" all the time, I'd just quietly chuckle to yourself, remind yourself about that Bible Verse where Jesus Himself said that it was the hypocrites who broadcast their faith all the time, figure that they'll get theirs in the end, and move on.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:53 PM on April 24, 2011
Oh, and sometimes someone wishing you a happy holiday-you-don't-celebrate is genuinely trying to be nice -- a dear friend's mother has started sending me "Happy passover" cards, and adding "(and happy easter)" at the bottom, but she is such a lovely lady that I'm sincerely touched.
She knows full well I am NOT Jewish, but I'm friends with her son and he's taken me to two family Seders now, and I chalk that up to "P is just including me in her thoughts this time of year, isn't that wonderful".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:56 PM on April 24, 2011
She knows full well I am NOT Jewish, but I'm friends with her son and he's taken me to two family Seders now, and I chalk that up to "P is just including me in her thoughts this time of year, isn't that wonderful".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:56 PM on April 24, 2011
Both my wife and I are former Christians who still have contact with our devoutly religious families. I could just be projecting, but I wonder if some of the discomfort might have to do with the tension of having once been part of the celebration, and now being on the outside. It's not so much that people are saying, "Happy Easter!" every ten minutes, it's the sense that they are trying to get you back on board.
Having endured a few days of pointed "Happy Easter -- He IS risen, and He IS alive [pointed pause]" messages from family members, I can definitely understand that aspect of it.
The important thing to remember is that the vast majority of people aren't doing that. They're just excited and they're celebrating and some of them are just saying, "Hey! It's a holiday!" and some are saying, "Hey! This is meaningful to me!" but they're talking about something they are experiencing. Treat those folks like friends celebrating an anniversary. You can smile and say, "Yay" but you don't have to be a part of it.
If you know or encounter people who use the holiday as a theological lever -- an opportunity to check whether you're still part of the team -- then that's an issue of disrespect and boundaries that should be dealt with separate from the holiday itself, I think.
posted by verb at 9:32 PM on April 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Having endured a few days of pointed "Happy Easter -- He IS risen, and He IS alive [pointed pause]" messages from family members, I can definitely understand that aspect of it.
The important thing to remember is that the vast majority of people aren't doing that. They're just excited and they're celebrating and some of them are just saying, "Hey! It's a holiday!" and some are saying, "Hey! This is meaningful to me!" but they're talking about something they are experiencing. Treat those folks like friends celebrating an anniversary. You can smile and say, "Yay" but you don't have to be a part of it.
If you know or encounter people who use the holiday as a theological lever -- an opportunity to check whether you're still part of the team -- then that's an issue of disrespect and boundaries that should be dealt with separate from the holiday itself, I think.
posted by verb at 9:32 PM on April 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
I take it you live in the South or somewhere else where being Christian is being VERY CHRISTIAN?
Yeah, you're just going to have to let it go. I think it'll only stir up drama if you say anything beyond going along with "Happy Easter to you too" or whatever. Which really isn't worth it. You can't stop being creeped out, you can't stop them from acting like that, but you don't have to prolong the drama.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:44 PM on April 24, 2011
Yeah, you're just going to have to let it go. I think it'll only stir up drama if you say anything beyond going along with "Happy Easter to you too" or whatever. Which really isn't worth it. You can't stop being creeped out, you can't stop them from acting like that, but you don't have to prolong the drama.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:44 PM on April 24, 2011
Response by poster: I don't live in the South, but I do live in a pretty Christian-centric neighborhood. Last night I was out around town and got several Happy Easters, and it was actually kind of nice. Not knowing what else to say I said 'And to you!' back a bunch, and it seemed to work. It hasn't happened this time, but around Holidaymas (which I call it thus because of the myriad world religions that all have major holidays around the month of December) I did get a few people who saw the little star-in-a-circle in my ear and went out of their way to wish me 'Merry Christmas! Jesus is the reason for the season!' every chance they got. I eventually did my best to just avoid them.
Part of my awkwardness, I think, is that I'm not super familiar with Christianity. I 'converted' when I was around thirteen, by accident really, so I hadn't gone through Confirmation or any of that stuff yet. I've since done a bit of reading on my own (they have a quite lovely book as a primer, you may know) so I've got some theoretical knowledge. The reality, sometimes, can be a bit different. (When I was living elsewhere for a few years, I ended up with a Baptist trying to save my soul. Now that was awkward...)
I am friends with many Christians, and a few obvious ones. They by and large know I'm not one myself, and thank Dog that they seem okay with it except for that one dude that doesn't talk to me anymore. Miss hanging out with him, but it's his choice.
You folks have given me some good things to think about. I don't think I quite have the 'omg they're all out to get me' attitude (except for that one dude five blocks down at the grocery store, yeesh) but maybe I do let it bother me a bit more than I should. I just need to remind myself, I suppose, that the sometimes (extremely vocal) minority isn't a good representation of the greater faith.
posted by Heretical at 10:32 AM on April 25, 2011
Part of my awkwardness, I think, is that I'm not super familiar with Christianity. I 'converted' when I was around thirteen, by accident really, so I hadn't gone through Confirmation or any of that stuff yet. I've since done a bit of reading on my own (they have a quite lovely book as a primer, you may know) so I've got some theoretical knowledge. The reality, sometimes, can be a bit different. (When I was living elsewhere for a few years, I ended up with a Baptist trying to save my soul. Now that was awkward...)
I am friends with many Christians, and a few obvious ones. They by and large know I'm not one myself, and thank Dog that they seem okay with it except for that one dude that doesn't talk to me anymore. Miss hanging out with him, but it's his choice.
You folks have given me some good things to think about. I don't think I quite have the 'omg they're all out to get me' attitude (except for that one dude five blocks down at the grocery store, yeesh) but maybe I do let it bother me a bit more than I should. I just need to remind myself, I suppose, that the sometimes (extremely vocal) minority isn't a good representation of the greater faith.
posted by Heretical at 10:32 AM on April 25, 2011
I did get a few people who saw the little star-in-a-circle in my ear and went out of their way to wish me 'Merry Christmas! Jesus is the reason for the season!' every chance they got. I eventually did my best to just avoid them.
Okay, that kind of thing you have every right to be annoyed by. But if it's any consolation, a lot of actual Christians think that that kind of thing is annoying too (one person I talked to quipped about that kind of behavior: "I wish they'd stop being on my side, because they're making my side look stupid").
However -- I referred to something in my earlier answer, but you say you're not familiar with Christianity as such, so I'll elaborate on this scripture, because bearing it in mind may help the water roll off your back a bit; these are all from the Gospel of Matthew, and are something Jesus is telling his disciples about whether to "wear their faith on their sleeve".
"when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like [heathen], for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."
A lot of the kinds of people you're talking about seem to be unconsciously tryng to prove that "I'm holier than you are, nyah". And what Jesus is saying above is that that kind of shit really ain't cool, and that God's gonna have a talk with people like that one day. So if it helps to remind yourself that "oh, those poor bastards don't really get their own Bible," there's that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:06 AM on April 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Okay, that kind of thing you have every right to be annoyed by. But if it's any consolation, a lot of actual Christians think that that kind of thing is annoying too (one person I talked to quipped about that kind of behavior: "I wish they'd stop being on my side, because they're making my side look stupid").
However -- I referred to something in my earlier answer, but you say you're not familiar with Christianity as such, so I'll elaborate on this scripture, because bearing it in mind may help the water roll off your back a bit; these are all from the Gospel of Matthew, and are something Jesus is telling his disciples about whether to "wear their faith on their sleeve".
"when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like [heathen], for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."
A lot of the kinds of people you're talking about seem to be unconsciously tryng to prove that "I'm holier than you are, nyah". And what Jesus is saying above is that that kind of shit really ain't cool, and that God's gonna have a talk with people like that one day. So if it helps to remind yourself that "oh, those poor bastards don't really get their own Bible," there's that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:06 AM on April 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by msbutah at 11:05 AM on April 24, 2011 [1 favorite]