I want to be BEHIND the bar!
April 4, 2011 11:18 AM Subscribe
I have a dream of opening a little pub in a sleepy little British village, but I have zero experience. How can I learn to be an tavern-keeper?
I've traveled the UK and am familiar with a couple of little villages in Northern Scotland particularly, which are wonderful places except lacking that most stereotypical institution, the pub. I love pubs and taverns and so forth, the quainter the better, and would love to settle down as the genial red-faced proprietor, polishing glasses and listening to the talk of the locals. But my education so far has been pretty much a smattering of liberal arts and a few stints in retail work; not even food services. I can cook pretty well, but that's about it. I'm in the USA now, in Washington state.
Would it be best to take a business course, or some kind of course in restaurant management? Or would it be best to find a tavern and start working there, learning on the job before going solo?
I've traveled the UK and am familiar with a couple of little villages in Northern Scotland particularly, which are wonderful places except lacking that most stereotypical institution, the pub. I love pubs and taverns and so forth, the quainter the better, and would love to settle down as the genial red-faced proprietor, polishing glasses and listening to the talk of the locals. But my education so far has been pretty much a smattering of liberal arts and a few stints in retail work; not even food services. I can cook pretty well, but that's about it. I'm in the USA now, in Washington state.
Would it be best to take a business course, or some kind of course in restaurant management? Or would it be best to find a tavern and start working there, learning on the job before going solo?
Go work in one, or any small restaurant with a bar. There are so many things you'll learn that way that you'll never learn in school unless it's from other students telling stories.
posted by theichibun at 11:37 AM on April 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by theichibun at 11:37 AM on April 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
Pubs in little British villages, large British towns and just about everywhere around the UK are closing at a rapid rate. Running a successful pub, particularly in a country where every supermarket and corner shop sells cut-price booze, is very, very difficult.
Here's a guide on how to run a pub from someone who appears to have done just about every job there is in a pub.
posted by essexjan at 11:44 AM on April 4, 2011 [9 favorites]
Here's a guide on how to run a pub from someone who appears to have done just about every job there is in a pub.
posted by essexjan at 11:44 AM on April 4, 2011 [9 favorites]
As mentioned, operating a pub in the UK is not exactly a growth industry. You want to run one of these things, you're probably going to have to buy or otherwise acquire one. And a lot of them are probably family businesses, so good luck with that.
I think you may have better luck getting your hands on an established dive bar in the US. There's tons of 'em, and there are a ton up for sale at any given moment for reasons that have nothing to do with their financial viability. Owners want to retire, move, get out of the business, whatever.
posted by valkyryn at 11:48 AM on April 4, 2011
I think you may have better luck getting your hands on an established dive bar in the US. There's tons of 'em, and there are a ton up for sale at any given moment for reasons that have nothing to do with their financial viability. Owners want to retire, move, get out of the business, whatever.
posted by valkyryn at 11:48 AM on April 4, 2011
As the others have said the prospects for the British pub at the moment are pretty bleak.
The writer Iain Banks co-owed a typical country pub in rural Scotland at one point. In a chapter of Raw Spirit he writes about the experience. I think you can sum it up as 'not good'.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:55 AM on April 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
The writer Iain Banks co-owed a typical country pub in rural Scotland at one point. In a chapter of Raw Spirit he writes about the experience. I think you can sum it up as 'not good'.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:55 AM on April 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Oh get bar experience... There's a million and one tricks of the trade.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:56 AM on April 4, 2011
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:56 AM on April 4, 2011
Given the state of the pub industry, I'd definitely look into taking some business and marketing courses. You'll need to figure out your niche and who would come to such a pub.
posted by amtho at 12:28 PM on April 4, 2011
posted by amtho at 12:28 PM on April 4, 2011
Most new pubs are opened by the 'branded pub chains' such as Wetherspoon's, and the chains that are run by licensees -- I assume this is closely similar to the franchised restaurant model in the US -- are closing as fast as independents.
The day, I suspect, when you could have done this as you imagine passed long ago. Chains and franchisors look for strong experience. The business lending market in the UK is not good at this time either, the British Isles having experienced much of the same economic events as the US from the housing boom to a financial crash that threatened the entire banking system.
I was slightly acquainted with someone who opened a "traditional" Irish pub in a Chicago suburb in the 1990s, to the extent of importing most of the decor and menu, but even though this was only one of a half-dozen restaurants he'd opened, it was a dicey first few years. I can't compare to true Irish pubs as I've never been there, but it didn't have much of the coziness I imagine. In any case, having experience at bartending and restaurant management here in the states would probably be something you'd want to consider before plunging into a potentially ruinous dream.
posted by dhartung at 12:37 PM on April 4, 2011
The day, I suspect, when you could have done this as you imagine passed long ago. Chains and franchisors look for strong experience. The business lending market in the UK is not good at this time either, the British Isles having experienced much of the same economic events as the US from the housing boom to a financial crash that threatened the entire banking system.
I was slightly acquainted with someone who opened a "traditional" Irish pub in a Chicago suburb in the 1990s, to the extent of importing most of the decor and menu, but even though this was only one of a half-dozen restaurants he'd opened, it was a dicey first few years. I can't compare to true Irish pubs as I've never been there, but it didn't have much of the coziness I imagine. In any case, having experience at bartending and restaurant management here in the states would probably be something you'd want to consider before plunging into a potentially ruinous dream.
posted by dhartung at 12:37 PM on April 4, 2011
If you're retired and independently wealthy, I suppose it's not a bad hobby to drain your savings with. It's more social than, say, a yacht or a racehorse.
I was going to say "Here's the thing" but there are so many things, this list isn't going to be short.
A village without a pub by definition lacks a pub you can buy. Thus you need to buy and refurbish another premesis. I suppose if this was an old postoffice or schoolhouse it could be neat, but if you have never fitted a pub, you cannot begin to imagine what an expensive pain in the arse this is.
Second, while you can buy quaint, you cannot buy it in. Breweries that buy premises and convert them to pubs strive for and fail utterly at quaint. The result is Frankenpub. It is rare for individual landlords at even rarer freehouses to do it better, in the same way people who build Tudor houses never get it remotely right.
Third, being a pub landlord is not something you can just take up. It is essential that you work front and back bar jobs. Barback or bartending experience in the US will help you get a job in a UK pub but you need specific hands-on UK experience because the relationship with the brewery/ies is very different and stock preference is extremely regional in a way it just is not in the US.
Fourth, while I'm not an expert on pubs or regional lingusitic variations, I have never heard a pub in the UK or Ireland called a tavern. This indicates to me you are not conversant with the culture you're looking to cater to. (Do you know what a lock in is? A drinks in list? A swifty? A shandy?)
Finally, depending on how remote this place in Scotland is, you may not be embraced as a local the way you were as a tourist. Just FYI and YMMV.
Having said all of that, there is a pub in Kerry called Bridie Keatings. It is owned by, well, Bridie. It operates from her livingroom. She makes sandwiches in the kitchen using a standard domestic toaster. It is the very definition of quaint. It surives, however, by the virtue of the fact that it is the only pub within walking distance of the famous Derrynane beach. I still wouldn't describe the trade as "thriving" even with that, but since Bridie owns the freehold on her house and is well past old enough to be drawing a pension, I'm not sure it needs to be.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:58 PM on April 4, 2011 [9 favorites]
I was going to say "Here's the thing" but there are so many things, this list isn't going to be short.
A village without a pub by definition lacks a pub you can buy. Thus you need to buy and refurbish another premesis. I suppose if this was an old postoffice or schoolhouse it could be neat, but if you have never fitted a pub, you cannot begin to imagine what an expensive pain in the arse this is.
Second, while you can buy quaint, you cannot buy it in. Breweries that buy premises and convert them to pubs strive for and fail utterly at quaint. The result is Frankenpub. It is rare for individual landlords at even rarer freehouses to do it better, in the same way people who build Tudor houses never get it remotely right.
Third, being a pub landlord is not something you can just take up. It is essential that you work front and back bar jobs. Barback or bartending experience in the US will help you get a job in a UK pub but you need specific hands-on UK experience because the relationship with the brewery/ies is very different and stock preference is extremely regional in a way it just is not in the US.
Fourth, while I'm not an expert on pubs or regional lingusitic variations, I have never heard a pub in the UK or Ireland called a tavern. This indicates to me you are not conversant with the culture you're looking to cater to. (Do you know what a lock in is? A drinks in list? A swifty? A shandy?)
Finally, depending on how remote this place in Scotland is, you may not be embraced as a local the way you were as a tourist. Just FYI and YMMV.
Having said all of that, there is a pub in Kerry called Bridie Keatings. It is owned by, well, Bridie. It operates from her livingroom. She makes sandwiches in the kitchen using a standard domestic toaster. It is the very definition of quaint. It surives, however, by the virtue of the fact that it is the only pub within walking distance of the famous Derrynane beach. I still wouldn't describe the trade as "thriving" even with that, but since Bridie owns the freehold on her house and is well past old enough to be drawing a pension, I'm not sure it needs to be.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:58 PM on April 4, 2011 [9 favorites]
The problem with this idea is that it looks easy. So everyone thinks that they could do it. And, all the places that can support a pub already have one.
In the UK, it's my understanding* that most non-chain pubs are either owned outright by the landlord, or leased from the brewery. In either case you would need to have access to a substantial amount of money to be able to take it on (freehold, I suspect costs hundreds of thousands of pounds and leasehold are probably not cheap either).
I think it would help to understand how small businesses work, and to be able to read accounts. This is because it's essential to know whether you're buying a viable business or not. Otherwise, general bar work would be helpful, preferably in the UK.
It goes without saying that you should understand British pub culture. You should know about the queue at the bar, the regulars, how tips work, etc.
On preview: DarlingBri points out that you might be treated differently if you are not a tourist. This would probably depend on how willing you are to embrace local life, and believe that it is better than wherever you are originally from.
*I've watched Kirsty and Phil's 'Relocation, Relocation' where people have bought pubs a few times.
posted by plonkee at 1:17 PM on April 4, 2011
In the UK, it's my understanding* that most non-chain pubs are either owned outright by the landlord, or leased from the brewery. In either case you would need to have access to a substantial amount of money to be able to take it on (freehold, I suspect costs hundreds of thousands of pounds and leasehold are probably not cheap either).
I think it would help to understand how small businesses work, and to be able to read accounts. This is because it's essential to know whether you're buying a viable business or not. Otherwise, general bar work would be helpful, preferably in the UK.
It goes without saying that you should understand British pub culture. You should know about the queue at the bar, the regulars, how tips work, etc.
On preview: DarlingBri points out that you might be treated differently if you are not a tourist. This would probably depend on how willing you are to embrace local life, and believe that it is better than wherever you are originally from.
*I've watched Kirsty and Phil's 'Relocation, Relocation' where people have bought pubs a few times.
posted by plonkee at 1:17 PM on April 4, 2011
Would it be best to take a business course, or some kind of course in restaurant management? Or would it be best to find a tavern and start working there, learning on the job before going solo?
I know nothing about the growth prospects for the british pub industry, but I am both a server and a bartender and I know that both are having a tough time as anyone else right now and it's hard to squirrel away money on $4.00/hr + "tips". Are you independently wealthy? How do you plan on buying the pub?
If you have no restaurant experience then get some. It's not for everyone, but if you find you like it then take a restaurant management course. The thing is, it's going to be hard to save enough money to buy a bar while you are working in a restaurant yourself (assuming you'll try to gain experience in a dive bar or family-owned diner, rather than a three star michelin restaurant).
The restaurant I work at is the gathering spot for my small town; we cater all the funerals for the funeral home down the road, the freemason meetings, the owner was married to the hairdresser next stoor, brother of the town clerk, etc, etc. It's quaint and all but it's very political and can be draining.
posted by pintapicasso at 1:23 PM on April 4, 2011
I know nothing about the growth prospects for the british pub industry, but I am both a server and a bartender and I know that both are having a tough time as anyone else right now and it's hard to squirrel away money on $4.00/hr + "tips". Are you independently wealthy? How do you plan on buying the pub?
If you have no restaurant experience then get some. It's not for everyone, but if you find you like it then take a restaurant management course. The thing is, it's going to be hard to save enough money to buy a bar while you are working in a restaurant yourself (assuming you'll try to gain experience in a dive bar or family-owned diner, rather than a three star michelin restaurant).
The restaurant I work at is the gathering spot for my small town; we cater all the funerals for the funeral home down the road, the freemason meetings, the owner was married to the hairdresser next stoor, brother of the town clerk, etc, etc. It's quaint and all but it's very political and can be draining.
posted by pintapicasso at 1:23 PM on April 4, 2011
I think the idea of 'quaint' is probably flawed from the off. Things that are quaint in a good way are described that way by other people, and aren't created as such. The term 'tavern' is concerning too. There are so many different types of pubs here and even the idea of a 'a little pub in a sleepy little British village' makes no sense. Some are gastropubs with a focus on food and classier decor, some are chains, some focus on local drinks, there are loads of types. Also remember that you can't create the history that such a description brings to mind without the pub actually having been there to cause the history to exist.
Scotland I feel you might well struggle too, while I've not actually been drinking in Scotland, I never get the idea from the scottish people who I know that they'd appreciate anyone (especially not a newcomer) opening a 'quaint tavern' for them. I'm English, but if someone did that near me I'd avoid it almost on principle, the way you describe it hardly makes it sound like any kind of pub one would want to drink in.
Beyond this there are practical concerns as listed above in terms of being profitable and such. Also, if you've never worked behind a bar then you're going to struggle even with simple drinks. Can you pour a good pint from draught?
In terms of your final question though, I think your third option is your best option - working in a pub for a while will either enthuse you or put you off the idea, but either way will at least give you a more accurate idea of what you're dealing with.
(Experience: Student, drinking lots of drinks in lots of pubs)
posted by ElliotH at 1:26 PM on April 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Scotland I feel you might well struggle too, while I've not actually been drinking in Scotland, I never get the idea from the scottish people who I know that they'd appreciate anyone (especially not a newcomer) opening a 'quaint tavern' for them. I'm English, but if someone did that near me I'd avoid it almost on principle, the way you describe it hardly makes it sound like any kind of pub one would want to drink in.
Beyond this there are practical concerns as listed above in terms of being profitable and such. Also, if you've never worked behind a bar then you're going to struggle even with simple drinks. Can you pour a good pint from draught?
In terms of your final question though, I think your third option is your best option - working in a pub for a while will either enthuse you or put you off the idea, but either way will at least give you a more accurate idea of what you're dealing with.
(Experience: Student, drinking lots of drinks in lots of pubs)
posted by ElliotH at 1:26 PM on April 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
I did a fair few pub and cellar jobs (and if you want to rub a British pub you weill need experience in the latter as well as the former) and I very nearly ended up in pub management in the UK. Here are a few things to bear in mind.
The hours are shit. I was offered a job where the owners expected me to work at least 11am -12pm every day (except Wednesday when I would get the afternoon off), but they reckoned I would need to be up at 8am to let the cleaner in and that typically I would just stay up to get stuff going ahead of the day.
Unless you are ruinning a place primarily for food, you get to stay in business based on how much booze you can sell to alcoholics, or 'regulars' as you will come to know them. This was my experience and that of my current SO, who was a manager for a UK pub chain before she gave it up for academia. Besides any moral qualms this might raise, what may seem like fun, welcoming chitchat on a holiday may be a bit more tedious every lunch time and evening.
As noted above, UK pubs are closing, and pubs in quaint villages are at serious risk especially, as they rely on tourism and the regulars being able to keep coming in. Many villages have lost their pubs for the same reason they have lost their shops, post offices etc - not enough trade to keep them open. Some of course will never have had pubs, because some places frown on licensed premises.
posted by biffa at 1:31 PM on April 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
The hours are shit. I was offered a job where the owners expected me to work at least 11am -12pm every day (except Wednesday when I would get the afternoon off), but they reckoned I would need to be up at 8am to let the cleaner in and that typically I would just stay up to get stuff going ahead of the day.
Unless you are ruinning a place primarily for food, you get to stay in business based on how much booze you can sell to alcoholics, or 'regulars' as you will come to know them. This was my experience and that of my current SO, who was a manager for a UK pub chain before she gave it up for academia. Besides any moral qualms this might raise, what may seem like fun, welcoming chitchat on a holiday may be a bit more tedious every lunch time and evening.
As noted above, UK pubs are closing, and pubs in quaint villages are at serious risk especially, as they rely on tourism and the regulars being able to keep coming in. Many villages have lost their pubs for the same reason they have lost their shops, post offices etc - not enough trade to keep them open. Some of course will never have had pubs, because some places frown on licensed premises.
posted by biffa at 1:31 PM on April 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Here's something I don't think anyone else has mentioned - do you hold EU citizenship or otherwise meet the requirements for UK immigration?
Because I'm not accusing you of this, but I've heard lots of fantasies from USians of living in the UK that seem to assume they can just up and move there if they feel like it. It's absolutely not that simple.
posted by crabintheocean at 1:32 PM on April 4, 2011
Because I'm not accusing you of this, but I've heard lots of fantasies from USians of living in the UK that seem to assume they can just up and move there if they feel like it. It's absolutely not that simple.
posted by crabintheocean at 1:32 PM on April 4, 2011
How cute!
Step one: Get legal right to work in the UK for a while.
Step two: Spend a summer season working somewhere suitably quaint, picturesque and touristy.
Step three: ???*
Step four: Profit!!1!
*Step three a may well involve discovering that it is bloody hard work, and three b something to do with finding another plan. Or you may discover that you don't mind mopping beery floors and cleaning urinals, having the same conversation with the same regular every day, dealing with the wholesalers sending you out-of-date crisps and manky lettuce, the drains getting blocked and the scheduled coach party cancelling due to bad weather (my experience? I worked in the kitchen and none of those things were actually my problem. I got to mop greasy floors and clean the dishwasher instead, carry food out to people who give the bar a table number and then move somewhere else, wash everything by hand when the dishwasher breaks and the service engineer can't get there til -I'm sorry where are you?- maybe Thursday. But hey, as an employee I was getting paid by the hour.)
posted by Lebannen at 3:19 PM on April 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
Step one: Get legal right to work in the UK for a while.
Step two: Spend a summer season working somewhere suitably quaint, picturesque and touristy.
Step three: ???*
Step four: Profit!!1!
*Step three a may well involve discovering that it is bloody hard work, and three b something to do with finding another plan. Or you may discover that you don't mind mopping beery floors and cleaning urinals, having the same conversation with the same regular every day, dealing with the wholesalers sending you out-of-date crisps and manky lettuce, the drains getting blocked and the scheduled coach party cancelling due to bad weather (my experience? I worked in the kitchen and none of those things were actually my problem. I got to mop greasy floors and clean the dishwasher instead, carry food out to people who give the bar a table number and then move somewhere else, wash everything by hand when the dishwasher breaks and the service engineer can't get there til -I'm sorry where are you?- maybe Thursday. But hey, as an employee I was getting paid by the hour.)
posted by Lebannen at 3:19 PM on April 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
work in a pub first. it's not easy work at all, but some will find it most agreeable, as I did. i spent 6 months working in an Irish pub in the heart of dublin. first off, they hated me as an American. I was called names and banished to the cellar to mop the kitchen floor and heft the 100+ kegs we received daily. only after a month of showing them that i would do the work and do it well without complaint, did they let me up to the main floor - to empty ashtrays. it took quite some time, but eventually they asked me to apprentice barman. there are a lot of jobs in a pub and as the owner, you must be willing to do them all. also, what ElliotH says: they will not accept you as the quaint pub owner. my suggestion is to actually create an americanized concept. that would be preferable to you trying to pass off a place as an institution that simply has no history there. and what everyone else has stated: do you have the go ahead to work/live in the UK? jump that hurdle first...or second, as I told you to work in a pub first. as for restaurant management courses of study, they won't offer nearly as much as the actual work experience.
posted by ps_im_awesome at 5:21 PM on April 4, 2011
posted by ps_im_awesome at 5:21 PM on April 4, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 11:30 AM on April 4, 2011