To thesis or not?
April 1, 2011 9:54 AM Subscribe
I am considering writing a senior honors thesis. Please help me work through the various worries I have so I can make a decision.
Negatives:
Time commitment: While I'm definitely leaning towards writing a thesis for my history major, it's a substantial time commitment. Half of my classes senior year will be for the thesis, and the thesis will have to be a minimum of 80 pages.
Double major: I won't be able to finish my 2nd major unless I overload, and I'm reluctant to do that. Religion is the major I'm really interested in, but I'm ineligible to write a thesis for that.
Graduate school: I would eventually like to go to grad school in the humanities. Will an honors thesis help me do this?
Support: From what I've seen, the department isn't always on top of everything, and it's been frustrating to communicate with them in the past. I'm afraid that that will only get worse if I invest more time into my thesis.
Independent study: One of my favorite professors wants to do an independent study with me next spring, and I would love to do it. I won't have time in my course schedule for this if I write the thesis.
Positives:
Advisor: My advisor would be great. He's well respected in his field, he's been working hard so that I could get accepted into the honors thesis seminar, and he works in a subject area I'm interested in.
Topic: I've got several good topics that I think I could allow to consume me for the next year.
Transcript: My transcript is pretty sad looking right now and I'm afraid that my resume will be totally worthless once I graduate. Would graduating with distinction be helpful in any way?
As you can see, I have more negatives than positives, but I'm not sure whether my concerns are all that valid.
If it matters, I go to a top-10 university in the US.
Negatives:
Time commitment: While I'm definitely leaning towards writing a thesis for my history major, it's a substantial time commitment. Half of my classes senior year will be for the thesis, and the thesis will have to be a minimum of 80 pages.
Double major: I won't be able to finish my 2nd major unless I overload, and I'm reluctant to do that. Religion is the major I'm really interested in, but I'm ineligible to write a thesis for that.
Graduate school: I would eventually like to go to grad school in the humanities. Will an honors thesis help me do this?
Support: From what I've seen, the department isn't always on top of everything, and it's been frustrating to communicate with them in the past. I'm afraid that that will only get worse if I invest more time into my thesis.
Independent study: One of my favorite professors wants to do an independent study with me next spring, and I would love to do it. I won't have time in my course schedule for this if I write the thesis.
Positives:
Advisor: My advisor would be great. He's well respected in his field, he's been working hard so that I could get accepted into the honors thesis seminar, and he works in a subject area I'm interested in.
Topic: I've got several good topics that I think I could allow to consume me for the next year.
Transcript: My transcript is pretty sad looking right now and I'm afraid that my resume will be totally worthless once I graduate. Would graduating with distinction be helpful in any way?
As you can see, I have more negatives than positives, but I'm not sure whether my concerns are all that valid.
If it matters, I go to a top-10 university in the US.
Best answer: Undergraduate thesis statements are a tricky business. I didn't write one (my department did not require one for honors), but most of my friends did, and it was really interesting to see how many of their gchat statuses changed something like "Hate my thesis. ARGH!" near the due date in March.
From what I generally hear, undergraduate theses aren't that fulfilling - most are expository, and a lot of work for what may turn out to be 80+ pages of random BS (especially as the deadline approaches and "crap crap crap gotta finish" syndrome kicks in). This seems to be especially true in the humanities, where thesis statements have to be super long... (compare to a physics thesis I've heard about that was 5 pages long). From the perspective of personal growth, I'm a bit skeptical as to how useful an undergraduate thesis can be.
Still, if it's required for honors, it very might give you a good boost when you apply to graduate programs, especially competitive ones. So from a practical perspective, you'll have to weigh the positives of getting honors with the negatives of not being able to complete your second major. Still, if your second major has little to do with the PhD department you will eventually apply to, it might be a practical to pursue the thesis instead of your second major. Especially if you don't feel like your GPA is very good, a good thesis might help you make up for that.
One thing to consider is that instructors in your regular courses are sympathetic towards thesis writers - it is much easier to get extensions and such when you are writing a thesis, since most professors know how stressful it is.
Ultimately, I think that if you have your sight set on eventual doctorate study, it could be useful to write a thesis. I think from a purely pragmatic standpoint, the most important point here is whether graduating with honors will help you in the future, since that's really what a thesis gets you. If you want to get a job right out of college, then you'll have to think hard if the type of job you want to get cares about the graduating with distinction.
posted by Event Horizon at 10:10 AM on April 1, 2011
From what I generally hear, undergraduate theses aren't that fulfilling - most are expository, and a lot of work for what may turn out to be 80+ pages of random BS (especially as the deadline approaches and "crap crap crap gotta finish" syndrome kicks in). This seems to be especially true in the humanities, where thesis statements have to be super long... (compare to a physics thesis I've heard about that was 5 pages long). From the perspective of personal growth, I'm a bit skeptical as to how useful an undergraduate thesis can be.
Still, if it's required for honors, it very might give you a good boost when you apply to graduate programs, especially competitive ones. So from a practical perspective, you'll have to weigh the positives of getting honors with the negatives of not being able to complete your second major. Still, if your second major has little to do with the PhD department you will eventually apply to, it might be a practical to pursue the thesis instead of your second major. Especially if you don't feel like your GPA is very good, a good thesis might help you make up for that.
One thing to consider is that instructors in your regular courses are sympathetic towards thesis writers - it is much easier to get extensions and such when you are writing a thesis, since most professors know how stressful it is.
Ultimately, I think that if you have your sight set on eventual doctorate study, it could be useful to write a thesis. I think from a purely pragmatic standpoint, the most important point here is whether graduating with honors will help you in the future, since that's really what a thesis gets you. If you want to get a job right out of college, then you'll have to think hard if the type of job you want to get cares about the graduating with distinction.
posted by Event Horizon at 10:10 AM on April 1, 2011
It would help clarify the question if you were to list the differences between a regular thesis and an honors thesis for your university.
Anecdotally, I had the opportunity to write an honors thesis and chose not to (electrical and software engineering) because of the time commitment (I would have had to write and defend a separate thesis) and, after meeting with several people in my college (both in and outside the honors college), I was told that writing an honors thesis would be more beneficial for a humanities student. However, unless you're planning on going to graduate school in the same university, I'm not sure if the "honors" designation will be interpreted the same through all schools (YMMV).
From how you describe your situation, though, I'd vote against doing an honors thesis--it sounds like you'd benefit more from finishing your second major (which is also a more tangible accomplishment) and taking an independent study with your professor (who might serve as a valuable reference in future graduate school applications).
tl; dr: Life's too short to be put too much value on ill-defined designations like "honors".
posted by Stephanie Duy at 10:10 AM on April 1, 2011
Anecdotally, I had the opportunity to write an honors thesis and chose not to (electrical and software engineering) because of the time commitment (I would have had to write and defend a separate thesis) and, after meeting with several people in my college (both in and outside the honors college), I was told that writing an honors thesis would be more beneficial for a humanities student. However, unless you're planning on going to graduate school in the same university, I'm not sure if the "honors" designation will be interpreted the same through all schools (YMMV).
From how you describe your situation, though, I'd vote against doing an honors thesis--it sounds like you'd benefit more from finishing your second major (which is also a more tangible accomplishment) and taking an independent study with your professor (who might serve as a valuable reference in future graduate school applications).
tl; dr: Life's too short to be put too much value on ill-defined designations like "honors".
posted by Stephanie Duy at 10:10 AM on April 1, 2011
Response by poster: It would help clarify the question if you were to list the differences between a regular thesis and an honors thesis for your university.
We're not required to write a thesis to graduate, so writing one would be the difference between graduating with distinction and just graduating. I'm not going to get Latin Honors (cum laude, etc.) so this is the only way I can graduate with honors.
posted by pecknpah at 10:14 AM on April 1, 2011
We're not required to write a thesis to graduate, so writing one would be the difference between graduating with distinction and just graduating. I'm not going to get Latin Honors (cum laude, etc.) so this is the only way I can graduate with honors.
posted by pecknpah at 10:14 AM on April 1, 2011
Best answer: Double majors mean very little. Better to spend the time developing good relationships in one department and writing the honors thesis if you have any desire to do graduate school. IAAPhDStudent
posted by k8t at 10:23 AM on April 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by k8t at 10:23 AM on April 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Best answer: For what it's worth, my college required EVERYONE to do a year-long thesis as part of a standard graduation requirement. There was no honors program. It was just expected that a senior in college would be able to coherently commit to a huge piece of academic work that was the culmination of four years of higher education learning (and this is something I happen to believe myself --- a senior in college should be expected to be able to successfully pull off work of this nature --- the optional aspect of it, the honors or not honors aspect of it, has struck me as just being odd).
I happened to have loved doing such a large work. The pride of accomplishing this task is so indescribable. I did laps around my dorm and whooped and screamed when I walked to the computer lab to print five copies. See my 100+ page tome come out of the printer.....it made graduating so much more real and palpable.
I also fully acknowledge that my opinion may be skewed on this, given that at my college, there was no choice in whether you did a project of this magnitude. To graduate, you had to do it. But for me, I wanted to prove to myself that I could. It was a testament to my time at my school, and every second of it --- every second of frustration and AHA moment, and every Thursday at 4 in my advisor's office senior year, and the nerve wracking wait to learn my grade --- was an experience I wouldn't change for the world.
I loved it so much. And I'd so do it again a million times over.
posted by zizzle at 10:27 AM on April 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
I happened to have loved doing such a large work. The pride of accomplishing this task is so indescribable. I did laps around my dorm and whooped and screamed when I walked to the computer lab to print five copies. See my 100+ page tome come out of the printer.....it made graduating so much more real and palpable.
I also fully acknowledge that my opinion may be skewed on this, given that at my college, there was no choice in whether you did a project of this magnitude. To graduate, you had to do it. But for me, I wanted to prove to myself that I could. It was a testament to my time at my school, and every second of it --- every second of frustration and AHA moment, and every Thursday at 4 in my advisor's office senior year, and the nerve wracking wait to learn my grade --- was an experience I wouldn't change for the world.
I loved it so much. And I'd so do it again a million times over.
posted by zizzle at 10:27 AM on April 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Showing you can write will definitely help you get into graduate school. Writing is the most important skill by far, and showing you can do it is a big bonus. On the other hand, the problems you've raised (not your preferred area of interest, dysfunctional department) are very real problems that will make this harder. Having your advisor's support should be enough to offset this.
If you can write a thesis that combines some of the ideas of your majors, (I don't know what the second one is), then you should definitely do it. Can you think of ways to bring your religion major perspective to your thesis in the second major?
posted by yeolcoatl at 10:44 AM on April 1, 2011
If you can write a thesis that combines some of the ideas of your majors, (I don't know what the second one is), then you should definitely do it. Can you think of ways to bring your religion major perspective to your thesis in the second major?
posted by yeolcoatl at 10:44 AM on April 1, 2011
Response by poster: I'll be writing a history thesis, for my first major. Religion is my second major, technically, but it's the one I've enjoyed more. I'm just not eligible because of my GPA to write a thesis for the Religion major, which I would do a heartbeat.
posted by pecknpah at 10:47 AM on April 1, 2011
posted by pecknpah at 10:47 AM on April 1, 2011
Best answer: Given how closely related History and Religion are as topics, couldn't you integrate a significant amount of Religion-related discussion into your History thesis?
posted by litnerd at 10:54 AM on April 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by litnerd at 10:54 AM on April 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
If you want to go to grad school, write your honours thesis. You'll have a recommendation letter from your supervisor saying that you've proven you can do grad-style work, which is worth it's weight in gold.
posted by auto-correct at 11:10 AM on April 1, 2011
posted by auto-correct at 11:10 AM on April 1, 2011
@litnerd. I agree. This is what I intended to suggest.
posted by yeolcoatl at 11:10 AM on April 1, 2011
posted by yeolcoatl at 11:10 AM on April 1, 2011
Best answer: If you write the thesis, at the very least you end up with a finished and nicely bound piece of writing that you can point to ten years down the road and say, "look! I did this!" -- it's more substantive and satisfying than a mere diploma on the wall.
For prospective employers, a thesis means you are capable of setting and meeting long-term goals and actually thinking/producing results on your own. All good, and much more meaningful than mere grades. (Extra bonus if your grades so far are not stellar!)
If you're thinking of grad school, no contest: write the thesis. Whatever you want to go to grad school for, evidence that you can do research and write carries much more weight than a double major. A history degree with an honors thesis would be more advantageous for grad school in religious studies, for instance, than a mere history-religious studies degree. I am a humanities faculty member who is currently on my department's graduate admissions committee, so I speak from direct experience here.
You yourself will get a chance to hone your skills with close guidance from a respected scholar. This will give you a tiny taste of what writing a PhD dissertation would be like. You might end up having a great experience and wanting to do more, yay! Or you might end up hating the whole research and writing slog, and so will save yourself from years of grad school misery by finding this out now. Either way, it's a good thing.
Your list of negatives includes a lack of departmental support. It's not clear what you're hinting at there, but communication with the thesis advisor is really all that you should take into consideration w/r/t "support" when you're making this particular decision. If the professor you're going to work with answers email messages within a couple of days, seems to give decent feedback on assignments, and is willing to meet with you on a regular basis to read drafts and talk about your progress, that's all the support you will need.
Re: the independent study -- is there any way of integrating that into thesis work? Any way of having this "favorite professor" act as your thesis supervisor? Even if s/he is not in your home department, it might be possible to arrange a project that would fulfill the thesis requirements AND allow you to work with this great person. Ask about it! Faculty are often willing to be pretty flexible with departmental policies if you are actively pursuing an intellectual interest.
Good luck!
posted by philokalia at 11:14 AM on April 1, 2011
For prospective employers, a thesis means you are capable of setting and meeting long-term goals and actually thinking/producing results on your own. All good, and much more meaningful than mere grades. (Extra bonus if your grades so far are not stellar!)
If you're thinking of grad school, no contest: write the thesis. Whatever you want to go to grad school for, evidence that you can do research and write carries much more weight than a double major. A history degree with an honors thesis would be more advantageous for grad school in religious studies, for instance, than a mere history-religious studies degree. I am a humanities faculty member who is currently on my department's graduate admissions committee, so I speak from direct experience here.
You yourself will get a chance to hone your skills with close guidance from a respected scholar. This will give you a tiny taste of what writing a PhD dissertation would be like. You might end up having a great experience and wanting to do more, yay! Or you might end up hating the whole research and writing slog, and so will save yourself from years of grad school misery by finding this out now. Either way, it's a good thing.
Your list of negatives includes a lack of departmental support. It's not clear what you're hinting at there, but communication with the thesis advisor is really all that you should take into consideration w/r/t "support" when you're making this particular decision. If the professor you're going to work with answers email messages within a couple of days, seems to give decent feedback on assignments, and is willing to meet with you on a regular basis to read drafts and talk about your progress, that's all the support you will need.
Re: the independent study -- is there any way of integrating that into thesis work? Any way of having this "favorite professor" act as your thesis supervisor? Even if s/he is not in your home department, it might be possible to arrange a project that would fulfill the thesis requirements AND allow you to work with this great person. Ask about it! Faculty are often willing to be pretty flexible with departmental policies if you are actively pursuing an intellectual interest.
Good luck!
posted by philokalia at 11:14 AM on April 1, 2011
Best answer: You can totally write a history thesis that heavily incorporates religion.
If you're thinking about grad school, I would strongly urge you to write the thesis. There are a bunch of reasons.
1. You may hate writing a thesis, and that's a clue that you don't want to do academic grad school. It's better for everyone if you figure that out before you apply.
2. If you decide to go to grad school, writing a thesis will give you a solid writing sample and show that you're capable of sustaining interest in a topic and that you can plan and follow through on reasonably large project.
3. You can start identifying topics that you might want to study in grad school.
4. You can develop a close professional relationship with your thesis advisor, which will allow him or her to write a better recommendation for you.
Also, writing a thesis is awesomely fun! Sometimes it's hard, but it's fun. It's like the nerd version of running a marathon.
posted by craichead at 11:17 AM on April 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
If you're thinking about grad school, I would strongly urge you to write the thesis. There are a bunch of reasons.
1. You may hate writing a thesis, and that's a clue that you don't want to do academic grad school. It's better for everyone if you figure that out before you apply.
2. If you decide to go to grad school, writing a thesis will give you a solid writing sample and show that you're capable of sustaining interest in a topic and that you can plan and follow through on reasonably large project.
3. You can start identifying topics that you might want to study in grad school.
4. You can develop a close professional relationship with your thesis advisor, which will allow him or her to write a better recommendation for you.
Also, writing a thesis is awesomely fun! Sometimes it's hard, but it's fun. It's like the nerd version of running a marathon.
posted by craichead at 11:17 AM on April 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: In case you aren't convinced yet, I want to enthusiastically endorse most of what's been said here so far. When I was an undergrad I chose writing a thesis over finishing a second major (took a minor in that subject instead) and it was 100% the right choice. My honors thesis turned into a couple of conference talks and a real publication, won me a kick-ass letter of recommendation from my supervisor, supplied me with a writing sample for grad school applications, and got me started on a topic I'm still pursuing now as a Ph.D. student.
I know majors seem important while you're in college, but once you get out nobody cares that much -- it's just a line on your transcript somewhere that reflects some arbitrary amount of coursework. A thesis, on the other hand, is a large and concrete personal accomplishment that you will be able to leverage when you're applying to grad school. I don't know of anyone in my current grad program who didn't either write an undergrad honors thesis or do an MA before starting the Ph.D. (I'm in a field where you can go straight from undergrad to Ph.D.). I actually think it would be an uphill battle to get into a top grad program (and in the humanities, you should be thinking top-tier or bust) without having done an honors thesis.
Regarding Event Horizon's concerns about the quality of undergrad theses: the way to avoid this problem is to write a good thesis! Don't waste your time writing 80 pages of random expository BS. Pick for your topic a real question that no one knows the answer to, and do original research that goes beyond Google Scholar and your library. In other words, be ambitious and take a stab at creating new knowledge! If you can do this, I think you'll be a highly competitive candidate for any grad program regardless of a mediocre undergrad GPA (research trumps grades every day of the week in grad school).
Oh, and contrary to litnerd's suggestion you can't really do much to improve your grad school application through volunteering or leadership (assuming we're talking about academic graduate programs in the humanities). They're both tangential to the primary question of the admissions committee, which is "Will this person do outstanding research in our field?".
posted by ootandaboot at 12:49 PM on April 1, 2011
I know majors seem important while you're in college, but once you get out nobody cares that much -- it's just a line on your transcript somewhere that reflects some arbitrary amount of coursework. A thesis, on the other hand, is a large and concrete personal accomplishment that you will be able to leverage when you're applying to grad school. I don't know of anyone in my current grad program who didn't either write an undergrad honors thesis or do an MA before starting the Ph.D. (I'm in a field where you can go straight from undergrad to Ph.D.). I actually think it would be an uphill battle to get into a top grad program (and in the humanities, you should be thinking top-tier or bust) without having done an honors thesis.
Regarding Event Horizon's concerns about the quality of undergrad theses: the way to avoid this problem is to write a good thesis! Don't waste your time writing 80 pages of random expository BS. Pick for your topic a real question that no one knows the answer to, and do original research that goes beyond Google Scholar and your library. In other words, be ambitious and take a stab at creating new knowledge! If you can do this, I think you'll be a highly competitive candidate for any grad program regardless of a mediocre undergrad GPA (research trumps grades every day of the week in grad school).
Oh, and contrary to litnerd's suggestion you can't really do much to improve your grad school application through volunteering or leadership (assuming we're talking about academic graduate programs in the humanities). They're both tangential to the primary question of the admissions committee, which is "Will this person do outstanding research in our field?".
posted by ootandaboot at 12:49 PM on April 1, 2011
I went to a similarly-ranked college in the US, and all of my friends who finished their theses said that, in the end, they were happy that they had done them, even with the sacrifices they had had to make in the rest of their lives to make them happen. Even the one friend whose adviser wanted to have meetings on Sunday mornings so he could never do anything fun on Friday or Saturday nights for most of senior year.
posted by Aizkolari at 1:11 PM on April 1, 2011
posted by Aizkolari at 1:11 PM on April 1, 2011
Do the thesis. It will be scary, at times it will be miserable, but you are going to come out with a much better understanding of yourself at the end. If you find you hated the thesis, then you've potentially saved thousands of dollars and untold heartache by discovering that at the end of undergrad rather than in the middle of grad school. If it turns out you loved the writing process, you'll know you're on the right path to grad school and you'll already have the skills to bust through readings and creating a paper (plus, a thesis will give your application a huge boost).
If you pick the right thesis topic, you'll still get a huge amount of practice and experience with religion even though you didn't formally get the second major. This wouldn't stop you from getting into a religious grad program, and arguably puts you in a better position because you've actually done something in the field instead of just taking another 1-2 classes.
Your question makes it sound like your potential thesis advisor has already done a lot of legwork to get you into the thesis seminar, and you don't want to throw that opportunity away. Your favorite professor will probably give you a great letter of rec even if you don't do the independent study, so you have an opportunity to impress a new professor.
posted by lilac girl at 1:36 PM on April 1, 2011
If you pick the right thesis topic, you'll still get a huge amount of practice and experience with religion even though you didn't formally get the second major. This wouldn't stop you from getting into a religious grad program, and arguably puts you in a better position because you've actually done something in the field instead of just taking another 1-2 classes.
Your question makes it sound like your potential thesis advisor has already done a lot of legwork to get you into the thesis seminar, and you don't want to throw that opportunity away. Your favorite professor will probably give you a great letter of rec even if you don't do the independent study, so you have an opportunity to impress a new professor.
posted by lilac girl at 1:36 PM on April 1, 2011
I'm just not eligible because of my GPA to write a thesis for the Religion major, which I would do a heartbeat.
These GPA cutoffs are often more flexible than you think. Can you petition to write a thesis in religion- maybe with some support from professors you've worked with?
posted by martinX's bellbottoms at 2:54 PM on April 1, 2011
These GPA cutoffs are often more flexible than you think. Can you petition to write a thesis in religion- maybe with some support from professors you've worked with?
posted by martinX's bellbottoms at 2:54 PM on April 1, 2011
Best answer: Echoing craichead. I'm on the honors committee in my department, and have directed a couple of theses. I don't know what your timetable for degree completion is, but if the thesis will be completed in your final semester you may not have it ready as a writing sample in time for grad school applications (unless you're taking a year off). Nevertheless, if you *are* planning on grad school, you should do it for two reasons:
1) it will give you a taste of what doing graduate level writing and research is like (at least, if it's competently directed in an honors program with high standards); and
2) more crucially, you'll have at least one faculty member who will know your work well enough to write you a good recommendation.
You might also want to look into undergraduate conferences - presenting your work in progress is not only great experience for grad school, but also an excellent way to hone your thesis.
posted by media_itoku at 5:06 PM on April 1, 2011
1) it will give you a taste of what doing graduate level writing and research is like (at least, if it's competently directed in an honors program with high standards); and
2) more crucially, you'll have at least one faculty member who will know your work well enough to write you a good recommendation.
You might also want to look into undergraduate conferences - presenting your work in progress is not only great experience for grad school, but also an excellent way to hone your thesis.
posted by media_itoku at 5:06 PM on April 1, 2011
Best answer: I'm echoing the general consensus here: graduate school (PhD's, in particular) are all about research. A good senior thesis is much better evidence of your ability to do research than a slightly higher GPA or a second major.
posted by instantlunch at 7:45 PM on April 1, 2011
posted by instantlunch at 7:45 PM on April 1, 2011
Best answer: craichead (and others) said what I would say. If you are thinking of grad school, definitely do a thesis. It's hard and rewarding. It will also be a chance to develop good skills for keeping on top of a big project -- hard skills, worth their weight in gold.
posted by LobsterMitten at 11:47 PM on April 1, 2011
posted by LobsterMitten at 11:47 PM on April 1, 2011
Response by poster: Thanks for your help, everybody. I submitted the proposal yesterday. Fingers crossed!
posted by pecknpah at 6:17 AM on April 6, 2011
posted by pecknpah at 6:17 AM on April 6, 2011
Response by poster: My thesis proposal was accepted! Be prepared for many thesis-related questions to come.
posted by pecknpah at 7:43 PM on April 14, 2011
posted by pecknpah at 7:43 PM on April 14, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
There are other ways to improve your resume, like volunteering, leadership, etc.
posted by litnerd at 10:09 AM on April 1, 2011 [1 favorite]