How do I convince myself to get a divorce, and not feel guilty forever about abandoning someone who loves me?
March 31, 2011 6:14 PM Subscribe
How do I convince myself to get a divorce, and not feel guilty forever about abandoning someone who loves me? And doesn't have a job. And can't get health insurance on her own.
4 years ago we got married at age 30. We were good friends, but we were a classic case of "opposites attract" and it took some time for the clashing to end.
Even before we got married, she had mild health woes - let's say 1 on a 10 scale of badness. 1 year into the marriage, the health woe jumped: 2 on a 10 scale. When this happened I panicked and nearly left her because the long term prognosis was very dim, and destined for years of medical horrors. The condition has no cure, is genetic, and has few treatments. Although she could live a fairly normal life, she quit her job to try to become healthier, and pursue a career she actually had passion for.
My sadness started then. My parents kept suggesting that I leave her. I became obsessed with the long term medical woes. In my mind she was my "dying wife". The Docs said we could have kids, but we were both very nervous about it. But right before this escalation happened, I had just enrolled in basically a second job, for career enhancement - not for financial reasons. So I was super busy with my own life. At this point I will confess to only being 85% committed to our marriage. And she knew I had thought about leaving, and my sadness. Still, things were mostly ok at home.
1.5 yrs later (2.5 years in), we were careless and she got pregnant. I was SO HAPPY! I started smiling! I was so envious of my friends who had kids. (I call my Facebook, Babybook.) I had a skip in my step. 10 weeks later, after getting sonograms w/heartbeats and due dates, the medical woe went from 2 to 8! The Doc, choking up with tears, gave us a difficult decision.
A series of procedures later, I became a caregiver and helped nursed her back to health. I had mild PTSD, and both of us were very depressed. I just wanted out of this nightmare and being crazy told her that I was thinking of leaving as she was recovering. But I didn't leave. And I escaped back into work.
Today my "2nd job" has ended so I have a lot of free time on my hand to contemplate life. The medical woe has settled to a 5. You wouldn't know it if you saw her out and about. We're told we could try having children again at the end of the year - possibly. But there is "medium" risk to the mother and child. It's better if we don't. Babybook is showing that most of my friends are now on their 2nd. We literally hate pregnant couples.
I'm ~50% committed to this marriage. Things aren't bad between us, but I see all my friends having families and happiness, while we despair about risks, side effects, sun exposure, etc. She is still my best friend. I sigh when I pull up to our driveway. Sometimes I sit in the car and think about driving away. Very conflicted.
My therapist says that it's time to make a decision. In or out. I think it's out.
I want to start a new, and be happy. But this would likely mean she would never have a chance to have children. Unemployed, she would have to move back in with her parents. She is uninsurable without working for a large company. Though I would keep her on mine, she might be too proud and too angry and would reject it - rather to die than to be dependent on the man who threw her away.
She's desperately trying to keep our marriage together. Trying to make me happy. She tells me she loves me once a week. I've said it once a year. I'm constantly thinking of ending it. I'm anguished with guilt about the situation. All I ever wanted was a happy family.
What should I do?
4 years ago we got married at age 30. We were good friends, but we were a classic case of "opposites attract" and it took some time for the clashing to end.
Even before we got married, she had mild health woes - let's say 1 on a 10 scale of badness. 1 year into the marriage, the health woe jumped: 2 on a 10 scale. When this happened I panicked and nearly left her because the long term prognosis was very dim, and destined for years of medical horrors. The condition has no cure, is genetic, and has few treatments. Although she could live a fairly normal life, she quit her job to try to become healthier, and pursue a career she actually had passion for.
My sadness started then. My parents kept suggesting that I leave her. I became obsessed with the long term medical woes. In my mind she was my "dying wife". The Docs said we could have kids, but we were both very nervous about it. But right before this escalation happened, I had just enrolled in basically a second job, for career enhancement - not for financial reasons. So I was super busy with my own life. At this point I will confess to only being 85% committed to our marriage. And she knew I had thought about leaving, and my sadness. Still, things were mostly ok at home.
1.5 yrs later (2.5 years in), we were careless and she got pregnant. I was SO HAPPY! I started smiling! I was so envious of my friends who had kids. (I call my Facebook, Babybook.) I had a skip in my step. 10 weeks later, after getting sonograms w/heartbeats and due dates, the medical woe went from 2 to 8! The Doc, choking up with tears, gave us a difficult decision.
A series of procedures later, I became a caregiver and helped nursed her back to health. I had mild PTSD, and both of us were very depressed. I just wanted out of this nightmare and being crazy told her that I was thinking of leaving as she was recovering. But I didn't leave. And I escaped back into work.
Today my "2nd job" has ended so I have a lot of free time on my hand to contemplate life. The medical woe has settled to a 5. You wouldn't know it if you saw her out and about. We're told we could try having children again at the end of the year - possibly. But there is "medium" risk to the mother and child. It's better if we don't. Babybook is showing that most of my friends are now on their 2nd. We literally hate pregnant couples.
I'm ~50% committed to this marriage. Things aren't bad between us, but I see all my friends having families and happiness, while we despair about risks, side effects, sun exposure, etc. She is still my best friend. I sigh when I pull up to our driveway. Sometimes I sit in the car and think about driving away. Very conflicted.
My therapist says that it's time to make a decision. In or out. I think it's out.
I want to start a new, and be happy. But this would likely mean she would never have a chance to have children. Unemployed, she would have to move back in with her parents. She is uninsurable without working for a large company. Though I would keep her on mine, she might be too proud and too angry and would reject it - rather to die than to be dependent on the man who threw her away.
She's desperately trying to keep our marriage together. Trying to make me happy. She tells me she loves me once a week. I've said it once a year. I'm constantly thinking of ending it. I'm anguished with guilt about the situation. All I ever wanted was a happy family.
What should I do?
How is your wife the cause of your unhappiness? I see you blaming her, but I don't see exactly what's wrong other than you being depressed.
posted by anniecat at 6:20 PM on March 31, 2011 [58 favorites]
posted by anniecat at 6:20 PM on March 31, 2011 [58 favorites]
It sounds like you don't want to be in this marriage and are looking for us to justify you leaving.
I don't know what vows you took, but when I took mine, it was "till death do you part." My wife stuck by me through some pretty bad shit (a couple of nervous breakdowns and me almost leaving her because of my depression).
I'd say that I'm in the position of your wife (my illness has been depression) and in the past it has been a 6/7/8 on a scale of 1 to 10. Right now it's about a 1 or 2, but it could easily be higher at some point in the future.
She's stuck with me and I'll stick with her.
What you should do is find a couples therapist and see them with her. Put all of this out there and figure it out with her. We, on the internet, can't make this decision for you.
posted by TheBones at 6:29 PM on March 31, 2011 [26 favorites]
I don't know what vows you took, but when I took mine, it was "till death do you part." My wife stuck by me through some pretty bad shit (a couple of nervous breakdowns and me almost leaving her because of my depression).
I'd say that I'm in the position of your wife (my illness has been depression) and in the past it has been a 6/7/8 on a scale of 1 to 10. Right now it's about a 1 or 2, but it could easily be higher at some point in the future.
She's stuck with me and I'll stick with her.
What you should do is find a couples therapist and see them with her. Put all of this out there and figure it out with her. We, on the internet, can't make this decision for you.
posted by TheBones at 6:29 PM on March 31, 2011 [26 favorites]
Your question reads as selfish and self-absorbed. Instead of working with your wife to get through a tough time, you're placing all the fault on her and her illness - her problem alone, which is making you unhappy. You want to leave and find a woman who's less complicated and will let you have what you've decided is a Facebook Ideal of a life.
Sometimes marriage is complicated. Sometimes we're dealt a shitty hand in life. Right now your wife is suffering, but someday you are probably going to be sick yourself. And someone will take care of you. Probably your wife, in large part, if you still have one.
The problem that's prompting this post is yours. If you can't take responsibility for the consequences of the choices you've made in your life so far, then yes, you should leave. But for her sake, not yours. She deserves better. And you'll become someone else's problem.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 6:32 PM on March 31, 2011 [99 favorites]
Sometimes marriage is complicated. Sometimes we're dealt a shitty hand in life. Right now your wife is suffering, but someday you are probably going to be sick yourself. And someone will take care of you. Probably your wife, in large part, if you still have one.
The problem that's prompting this post is yours. If you can't take responsibility for the consequences of the choices you've made in your life so far, then yes, you should leave. But for her sake, not yours. She deserves better. And you'll become someone else's problem.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 6:32 PM on March 31, 2011 [99 favorites]
It sounds like you and your wife have been through a lot. Serious medical problems would be hard for anyone to deal with. Give both of yourselves a pat on the back for persevering so far.
I think, though, that you should try to shift your thinking a little bit. You can't take back these years of marriage. You feel guilty just thinking about leaving her. If you do leave her, you won't have to be her caretaker anymore – but you'll always have left your wife in a manner you feel terrible about. What you're describing sounds stressful and difficult for the both of you, but I think you're romanticizing what your life might be like if you left and found someone else. Everyone has warts; people get sick, and old, and infirm; staying happy for the long term takes a lot of work and dealing with a lot of difficult circumstances.
Can you guys adopt kids? Can you find a way to build the family together that it sounds like you both want?
Consider getting a new therapist. It strikes me as rather objectionable that yours is giving you ultimatums about leaving your wife.
posted by dixiecupdrinking at 6:33 PM on March 31, 2011 [10 favorites]
I think, though, that you should try to shift your thinking a little bit. You can't take back these years of marriage. You feel guilty just thinking about leaving her. If you do leave her, you won't have to be her caretaker anymore – but you'll always have left your wife in a manner you feel terrible about. What you're describing sounds stressful and difficult for the both of you, but I think you're romanticizing what your life might be like if you left and found someone else. Everyone has warts; people get sick, and old, and infirm; staying happy for the long term takes a lot of work and dealing with a lot of difficult circumstances.
Can you guys adopt kids? Can you find a way to build the family together that it sounds like you both want?
Consider getting a new therapist. It strikes me as rather objectionable that yours is giving you ultimatums about leaving your wife.
posted by dixiecupdrinking at 6:33 PM on March 31, 2011 [10 favorites]
This reads very strangely; is it possible you really do love her and you're afraid of losing her, or about not being able to "man up" and help her through whatever this health crisis is? I guess I'm reading some "fight or flight" response into this.
Agree that there should be a couples therapist involved here. And maybe a new one for you, to work through all the various issues seen here (sick wife; lost baby; desire for another baby; guilt; jealousy). Consider adoption. Consider having a plan for when things get rough again, maybe one that involves something other than you as primary caregiver.
But in the end, if you aren't committed, she deserves to have someone by her side who will be. If you are worried about her getting health care, etc., is it possible to move out, but not actual divorce her, so she can keep your health insurance?
posted by dpx.mfx at 6:36 PM on March 31, 2011 [3 favorites]
Agree that there should be a couples therapist involved here. And maybe a new one for you, to work through all the various issues seen here (sick wife; lost baby; desire for another baby; guilt; jealousy). Consider adoption. Consider having a plan for when things get rough again, maybe one that involves something other than you as primary caregiver.
But in the end, if you aren't committed, she deserves to have someone by her side who will be. If you are worried about her getting health care, etc., is it possible to move out, but not actual divorce her, so she can keep your health insurance?
posted by dpx.mfx at 6:36 PM on March 31, 2011 [3 favorites]
It sounds to me like you want out of this marriage because you're exhausted from the burden of taking care of your wife, yet... you also want children. Before you take any further steps, you should think about that for a minute.
No matter who you're with, health woes are inevitable. It could be you who has to be nursed back to health next time.
And if you're sure you're ready for the responsibility of children despite everything else, why can't you adopt to avoid risk?
There are work-arounds for the problems you've listed. Is there another reason you want out? Try a couple's therapist before you break your vows. You already feel guilty about this, so at least give it a good shot so you'll know you tried your best before you leave.
posted by katillathehun at 6:37 PM on March 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
No matter who you're with, health woes are inevitable. It could be you who has to be nursed back to health next time.
And if you're sure you're ready for the responsibility of children despite everything else, why can't you adopt to avoid risk?
There are work-arounds for the problems you've listed. Is there another reason you want out? Try a couple's therapist before you break your vows. You already feel guilty about this, so at least give it a good shot so you'll know you tried your best before you leave.
posted by katillathehun at 6:37 PM on March 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
Not sure about the emotional side of things, but I believe you can get a legal separation rather than divorce, and that will allow her to keep her health insurance. You might want to look into that? The leaving her thing I'm not concerned about, it's the leaving her without health insurance part that makes me sad and worried for her.
posted by katypickle at 6:39 PM on March 31, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by katypickle at 6:39 PM on March 31, 2011 [4 favorites]
I really can't think of much that would be lower than leaving your wife because of her medical issues. When you get married you marry the whole person, not just the parts that are convenient.
You both need to go to therapy, together.
If you are looking for validation that you are justified in your behavior, you not going to get it from me.
posted by COD at 6:40 PM on March 31, 2011 [23 favorites]
You both need to go to therapy, together.
If you are looking for validation that you are justified in your behavior, you not going to get it from me.
posted by COD at 6:40 PM on March 31, 2011 [23 favorites]
Look, telling the OP that he should be responsible or that he's not being honorable might or might not lead to his staying in the marriage, but the fact is that he's miserable. Is there anything to be said, whether it's what he thinks he wants to hear or not, that could help him feel better about himself and his life?
It sounds like the idea of having children gives you a lot of joy, and that you really, really want it. And you're devastated that you might not have that, or that you might end up with no wife at all. If you really commit to the children, or to another thing you can build (in your community or your family), and to building a life that can accommodate them, maybe that will inspire you enough that life will be good.
If you decide that you must leave your wife, you'll always have to life with this conception of yourself as someone who would do that. Factor that into your decisions. Make sure you're not acting out of fear or despair, but out of a positive hope.
posted by amtho at 6:40 PM on March 31, 2011 [4 favorites]
It sounds like the idea of having children gives you a lot of joy, and that you really, really want it. And you're devastated that you might not have that, or that you might end up with no wife at all. If you really commit to the children, or to another thing you can build (in your community or your family), and to building a life that can accommodate them, maybe that will inspire you enough that life will be good.
If you decide that you must leave your wife, you'll always have to life with this conception of yourself as someone who would do that. Factor that into your decisions. Make sure you're not acting out of fear or despair, but out of a positive hope.
posted by amtho at 6:40 PM on March 31, 2011 [4 favorites]
Soooo... do you have any problems with her other than the fact she has an illness?... because that's all I'm getting from your question. If that's your only beef then I don't have a goddamn idea what to say to someone like you. If not, then your question is woefully incomplete.
posted by gatorae at 6:41 PM on March 31, 2011 [30 favorites]
posted by gatorae at 6:41 PM on March 31, 2011 [30 favorites]
Leave her if you're gonna leave her - but don't expect to do it guiltlessly.
If a child and a family is such a big deal, adopt. It's the classic solution when biology cannot produce a child for a couple for whatever reason.
Couples therapy. And delete your damn Facebook account if it's such an envy mill.
posted by EatTheWeek at 6:47 PM on March 31, 2011 [12 favorites]
If a child and a family is such a big deal, adopt. It's the classic solution when biology cannot produce a child for a couple for whatever reason.
Couples therapy. And delete your damn Facebook account if it's such an envy mill.
posted by EatTheWeek at 6:47 PM on March 31, 2011 [12 favorites]
You have to ask yourself if she will be better off without somebody around her who is miserable and resentful.
posted by Ad hominem at 6:54 PM on March 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Ad hominem at 6:54 PM on March 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
She is still my best friend.
This may be true, but you don't say anything about how she's dealing with her illness and your relationship and your future together (or apart) other than to say she's depressed. Maybe you're engaged with her emotionally and think about her and not just yourself, but that doesn't come through in your question. Do you love her? If you don't, then a separation (where, for God's sake, she gets to keep her health insurance) may be the kindest thing to do, and she would have a chance at finding someone who loves her and thinks she's worth the inconveniences.
Also, delete the damn Facebook account. You sound exactly like those sixteen-year-old girls who are convinced that they'll marry the quarterback and have the perfect life, IT ALL HAS TO BE PERFECT, and who turn into bridezillas and then Betty Draper.
Again, it may be the way your question is phrased and the state of mind you were in when you wrote it, but you really really don't sound ready to be a parent. The values you're espousing here are not things that should be passed on to kids.
posted by you're a kitty! at 6:55 PM on March 31, 2011 [21 favorites]
This may be true, but you don't say anything about how she's dealing with her illness and your relationship and your future together (or apart) other than to say she's depressed. Maybe you're engaged with her emotionally and think about her and not just yourself, but that doesn't come through in your question. Do you love her? If you don't, then a separation (where, for God's sake, she gets to keep her health insurance) may be the kindest thing to do, and she would have a chance at finding someone who loves her and thinks she's worth the inconveniences.
Also, delete the damn Facebook account. You sound exactly like those sixteen-year-old girls who are convinced that they'll marry the quarterback and have the perfect life, IT ALL HAS TO BE PERFECT, and who turn into bridezillas and then Betty Draper.
Again, it may be the way your question is phrased and the state of mind you were in when you wrote it, but you really really don't sound ready to be a parent. The values you're espousing here are not things that should be passed on to kids.
posted by you're a kitty! at 6:55 PM on March 31, 2011 [21 favorites]
Leaving your wife wouldn't guarantee you a happy family. Obviously you are having a hard time accepting the hand that life has dealt you and your wife. Yeah, it really sucks. But leaving her because she has a serious illness is really not a great thing to do, and frankly I think you should feel guilty forever about abandoning her with all the details you've offered us.
It is still possible to finally accept this and deal with it in a positive manner. Since you want kids so much and it's dangerous for her to have them, why not look into adopting? Also, have you considered the possibility that perhaps her stressing about the fact that you constantly think about leaving her puts her health in more jeopardy?
And stop logging into Facebook if it makes you so upset. Or hide the people that upset you.
posted by wondermouse at 6:55 PM on March 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
It is still possible to finally accept this and deal with it in a positive manner. Since you want kids so much and it's dangerous for her to have them, why not look into adopting? Also, have you considered the possibility that perhaps her stressing about the fact that you constantly think about leaving her puts her health in more jeopardy?
And stop logging into Facebook if it makes you so upset. Or hide the people that upset you.
posted by wondermouse at 6:55 PM on March 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
Guilt is your subconscious telling you you are doing something your values tell you is wrong
posted by saucysault at 6:55 PM on March 31, 2011 [17 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 6:55 PM on March 31, 2011 [17 favorites]
Anonymous sounds depressed to me. You should refrain from making life decisions like this when suffering from depression because the way it manifests (for some people) is to make normal things seem unbearable, loved ones seem like pains in the asses and escape seem like the only solution.
Anon, if your therapist hasn't suggested it, consider seeing a psychiatrist, who will be able to diagnose it properly if it is there, and who will have the ability to prescribe the right kind of therapy. Drug, talk, cbt, whatever.
posted by gjc at 6:56 PM on March 31, 2011 [8 favorites]
Anon, if your therapist hasn't suggested it, consider seeing a psychiatrist, who will be able to diagnose it properly if it is there, and who will have the ability to prescribe the right kind of therapy. Drug, talk, cbt, whatever.
posted by gjc at 6:56 PM on March 31, 2011 [8 favorites]
What happens if you have a child (biologically or adopted, with this woman or someone else) and it becomes seriously ill? If it never stops crying, it throws up everywhere, it must be helped all the time? If nobody is envious of you, and some even feel sorry for you? You know, if things get hard. Would you skip out then?
You can't leave her and not feel guilty because it is acting without honor. You can, however, leave her. I think you should, because you've been telling her that you are leaving since just after your first year together. She's got to be pretty mentally prepared for the fact. If she's smart, she's used some of her time in these 3 years of your threats to proactively make some financial arrangements, and has already had a meeting with a lawyer.
She might also be ready for you to leave. Have you asked her? Recently? It must get tiring for her to see you playing the martyr, never at home, only loving her when she's pregnant, and staying with her only so that you don't feel guilty. She deserves better, and can do better.
posted by Houstonian at 6:56 PM on March 31, 2011 [35 favorites]
You can't leave her and not feel guilty because it is acting without honor. You can, however, leave her. I think you should, because you've been telling her that you are leaving since just after your first year together. She's got to be pretty mentally prepared for the fact. If she's smart, she's used some of her time in these 3 years of your threats to proactively make some financial arrangements, and has already had a meeting with a lawyer.
She might also be ready for you to leave. Have you asked her? Recently? It must get tiring for her to see you playing the martyr, never at home, only loving her when she's pregnant, and staying with her only so that you don't feel guilty. She deserves better, and can do better.
posted by Houstonian at 6:56 PM on March 31, 2011 [35 favorites]
1 year into the marriage, the health woe jumped: 2 on a 10 scale. When this happened I panicked and nearly left her
Wow, that's how you react to something you consider a 2 out of 10? Here's the thing: if you choose to make the commitment to spend the rest of your life with someone, then sooner or later one of you is going to have health problems. And the other will, too, at some point. (In fact, one of you will be the first to die.) That's part of the comfort of the partnership, though - that you have each other to lean on for support and caring and love and help.
It doesn't sound to me like you ever really understood what marriage is all about, and I feel bad for you and bad for your wife. But if you don't love her, end it now and give her the opportunity to find someone who really cares about her.
posted by amro at 6:56 PM on March 31, 2011 [8 favorites]
Wow, that's how you react to something you consider a 2 out of 10? Here's the thing: if you choose to make the commitment to spend the rest of your life with someone, then sooner or later one of you is going to have health problems. And the other will, too, at some point. (In fact, one of you will be the first to die.) That's part of the comfort of the partnership, though - that you have each other to lean on for support and caring and love and help.
It doesn't sound to me like you ever really understood what marriage is all about, and I feel bad for you and bad for your wife. But if you don't love her, end it now and give her the opportunity to find someone who really cares about her.
posted by amro at 6:56 PM on March 31, 2011 [8 favorites]
So, the only problem is that her illness sucks and life is hard? You have things that you worry about? The problem is that if you leave her and meet someone else, there's no guarantee of that charmed life that looks so green from your side of the fence.
You sound depressed to me. Depressed and scared. I don't think the reasons you've expressed for considering divorce are that good -- or at least, you're not in the right frame of mind to make that decision right now.
posted by J. Wilson at 6:58 PM on March 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
You sound depressed to me. Depressed and scared. I don't think the reasons you've expressed for considering divorce are that good -- or at least, you're not in the right frame of mind to make that decision right now.
posted by J. Wilson at 6:58 PM on March 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
Umm, the decision to adopt isn't as easy as everyone would like to believe, speaking as an adoptive mother. But there are other options as well, surrogacy for example. Also, it sounds as if money is not a problem, so hiring a caretaker for your wife and possible child is always an option. There are many options other than leaving.
Facebook is like the Chrismas brag letter, but so much worse because people look at it weekly, or even daily. It only represents how people want to portray themselves, not what their life is really like.
posted by southeastyetagain at 6:58 PM on March 31, 2011 [4 favorites]
Facebook is like the Chrismas brag letter, but so much worse because people look at it weekly, or even daily. It only represents how people want to portray themselves, not what their life is really like.
posted by southeastyetagain at 6:58 PM on March 31, 2011 [4 favorites]
You know, there's nothing in your list of things 'wrong' with your wife that especially stands out as that unbearable and heinous that you'd have to break your marriage for. Everyone, when you get to know them at the most intimate level, has issues of one type or other. Physical health, mental health, lost babies, deaths they can't get over, memories that haunt them, hang-ups both understandable and totally weird. You, yourself, have issues that can be seen from a a mile away just by reading your question. These are the things that give us depth; that make us lovable; that make us human.
I get that you're unhappy with your life as it is, but not that it is your wife that is making you be that way.
Any woman you marry will have, sooner or later Serious Issues that need to be dealt with. You will eventually have Serious Issues that need to be dealt with. Children, also, come with Issues.
What sort of person do you want to be? How hard are you willing to work to be that person? And finding contentment and peace is work.
Maybe in the long run you may do her a favor by leaving her now -- maybe not. Or maybe you do both of you a favor by now starting to work on becoming a stronger and more honorable person -- something that will be of lasting value to your throughout your life, single or coupled.
posted by frobozz at 6:58 PM on March 31, 2011 [7 favorites]
I get that you're unhappy with your life as it is, but not that it is your wife that is making you be that way.
Any woman you marry will have, sooner or later Serious Issues that need to be dealt with. You will eventually have Serious Issues that need to be dealt with. Children, also, come with Issues.
What sort of person do you want to be? How hard are you willing to work to be that person? And finding contentment and peace is work.
Maybe in the long run you may do her a favor by leaving her now -- maybe not. Or maybe you do both of you a favor by now starting to work on becoming a stronger and more honorable person -- something that will be of lasting value to your throughout your life, single or coupled.
posted by frobozz at 6:58 PM on March 31, 2011 [7 favorites]
I have a "Syndrome": a rare, progressive neurological disease. It's not like ALS, it's just I'm weak and things are not working right, and this will continue to get worse. My husband's life is filling up with the chores I used to be able to do, with tending to me. But he is so loving and so willing, and we have NEVER been as close as we are now. It's happening to both of us, and we both want to be as happy as we can for as long as we can.
If you can't love your wife, or feel compassion that opens your heart to her -- well, you can't. It breaks my heart to think of what she must be going through, saying she loves you and not getting it back, as she struggles with limitations and fear. You know, you worry about her living with her parents and not having medical coverage, blah blah blah, but really .... it might be a much better life for her, and she might have a chance to to live more fully if you did just leave, instead of **almost** accepting her, **almost** loving her.
I wish for the best for you both.
posted by kestralwing at 7:00 PM on March 31, 2011 [41 favorites]
If you can't love your wife, or feel compassion that opens your heart to her -- well, you can't. It breaks my heart to think of what she must be going through, saying she loves you and not getting it back, as she struggles with limitations and fear. You know, you worry about her living with her parents and not having medical coverage, blah blah blah, but really .... it might be a much better life for her, and she might have a chance to to live more fully if you did just leave, instead of **almost** accepting her, **almost** loving her.
I wish for the best for you both.
posted by kestralwing at 7:00 PM on March 31, 2011 [41 favorites]
How do I convince myself to get a divorce, and not feel guilty forever about abandoning someone who loves me?
I say this in total seriousness: why shouldn't you feel guilty about something like that? It's proper to feel guilty about doing things that are horrible. Otherwise we'd be sociopaths.
The only thing I can think of to counter that, is that IMO it's possibly even more horrible to string along your sick wife for years while rubbing it her face that you're halfway out the door to look for a healthy woman without any lost pregnancies, and letting her debase herself by jumping through all kinds of hoops to keep you.
posted by Ashley801 at 7:05 PM on March 31, 2011 [48 favorites]
I say this in total seriousness: why shouldn't you feel guilty about something like that? It's proper to feel guilty about doing things that are horrible. Otherwise we'd be sociopaths.
The only thing I can think of to counter that, is that IMO it's possibly even more horrible to string along your sick wife for years while rubbing it her face that you're halfway out the door to look for a healthy woman without any lost pregnancies, and letting her debase herself by jumping through all kinds of hoops to keep you.
posted by Ashley801 at 7:05 PM on March 31, 2011 [48 favorites]
Yeah, he already feels guilty. But he also feels so awful that he just wants to escape. What do you say to someone in that state?
Maybe: try another therapist. Seriously.
If you have friends, talk to them.
If you can at all bear it, maybe join a church. Together with your wife; you both need a social circle.
If either of you sings, you might join a community chorus.
posted by amtho at 7:05 PM on March 31, 2011
Maybe: try another therapist. Seriously.
If you have friends, talk to them.
If you can at all bear it, maybe join a church. Together with your wife; you both need a social circle.
If either of you sings, you might join a community chorus.
posted by amtho at 7:05 PM on March 31, 2011
Trying very hard not to be judgmental here - but damn... she's family! She gets sick and you want to divorce her? Man up. Your happiness does not matter right now. Every fiber of your being should be focused on getting her well and back to normal - or at least comfortable. I know it's hard, and having a sick spouse must be one of the most stressful, depressing things in life - - - but you signed on for this.
posted by brownrd at 7:06 PM on March 31, 2011
posted by brownrd at 7:06 PM on March 31, 2011
What woman in her right mind would team up with a man who left his previous wife because she was ill? What would you tell potential female mates about the end of your previous marriage? Would you lie or fudge the truth to reduce your guilt or increase your options? If the answer is yes or maybe then you are neither husband nor father material.
If you have to leave her, sign over most of your shared assets to her and do everything in your power to ensure she has adequate health cover. And like others have said, maybe your negative and selfish attitude (unhappiness, depression whatever) is adding to her problems.
In my opinion it was cruel and hurtful to speak about leaving when she got really sick a couple of years ago. Deep down you probably know that you caused a lot of damage then and this is playing into your despair.
The answer: become a more mature person.
posted by the fish formerly known as sarcastic fringehead at 7:11 PM on March 31, 2011 [15 favorites]
If you have to leave her, sign over most of your shared assets to her and do everything in your power to ensure she has adequate health cover. And like others have said, maybe your negative and selfish attitude (unhappiness, depression whatever) is adding to her problems.
In my opinion it was cruel and hurtful to speak about leaving when she got really sick a couple of years ago. Deep down you probably know that you caused a lot of damage then and this is playing into your despair.
The answer: become a more mature person.
posted by the fish formerly known as sarcastic fringehead at 7:11 PM on March 31, 2011 [15 favorites]
All I ever wanted was a happy family.
This is the way to have a happy family: love each other, accept each other, be kind to each other, help each other, and have each other's backs no matter what happens. You can't just treat people horribly and then wonder why the family isn't happy. It has nothing to do with money, and it has nothing to do with health. You choose to be good to each other or not regardless of your circumstances.
Your wife's sickness isn't the reason you don't have a happy family. You don't have a happy family because you've chosen not to do any of those things towards your wife. Instead, you withhold love from her, toy with her emotionally, and blame her for something she can't help. You could have the most physically healthy relatives ever, and if that's how you behave, you won't ever have a happy family. It's all about how you act when the chips are down.
posted by Ashley801 at 7:16 PM on March 31, 2011 [84 favorites]
This is the way to have a happy family: love each other, accept each other, be kind to each other, help each other, and have each other's backs no matter what happens. You can't just treat people horribly and then wonder why the family isn't happy. It has nothing to do with money, and it has nothing to do with health. You choose to be good to each other or not regardless of your circumstances.
Your wife's sickness isn't the reason you don't have a happy family. You don't have a happy family because you've chosen not to do any of those things towards your wife. Instead, you withhold love from her, toy with her emotionally, and blame her for something she can't help. You could have the most physically healthy relatives ever, and if that's how you behave, you won't ever have a happy family. It's all about how you act when the chips are down.
posted by Ashley801 at 7:16 PM on March 31, 2011 [84 favorites]
My ex-husband -- with whom I am now friends -- resented my health problems throughout our engagement and marriage as I went through my first bout with cancer. It was toxic, and our marriage never really bloomed in large part because of it. He let it slip toward the end of thing that he stayed with me in the first place (I got sick before we got married) primarily because he didn't want to be seen as the kind of person who would dump a woman with cancer. He did not mention his love, loyalty, concern, compassion for me as any part of the reason he stayed; it was pretty much shame and obligation, and perhaps some pity. This was devastating. It was also very, very instructive.
I was better off without him, and he was better off without me, and thank god we didn't have kids together. We divorced, moved on with our lives, became friends again (from a distance of about 1500 miles), and both eventually met and fell in love with the people who would become our life partners. My partner has stood supported me unconditionally and compassionately and lovingly through my second bout with cancer because he is on my side, and according to him there is no place he'd rather be than helping me get well and see me cross the finish line of this long and difficult race.
As others have said: if you do not truly have compassion in your heart for your wife, you don't. If you do not see yourself as being her number one supporter, you don't. If you're not part of an unbreakable team of two, you aren't. She deserves so much better. The emotional pain of being ill and not being supported by the very person who is supposed to love you through thick and thin is one of the most soul-crushing, painful, sickening things I have ever endured. Frankly, I would have preferred the pain of being cheated on to the pain of being rejected because I was ill.
And if and when you two split up -- since you profess to feel guilt on this point -- you will presumably have the decency to come to a financial arrangement to help support her so that she can have health care until such time as she can get it through work or some other way.
And always remember: nothing is guaranteed. Life is delicate. Anyone you love now or in the future could become catastrophically ill or injured. What kind of character do you want to cultivate in yourself so that you don't repeat this same pattern? What kind of character do you want to cultivate in case you find yourself on the receiving end of needing to be taken care of? Because those are the ways you create a happy family. Facebook has fuck all to do with it.
posted by scody at 7:18 PM on March 31, 2011 [100 favorites]
I was better off without him, and he was better off without me, and thank god we didn't have kids together. We divorced, moved on with our lives, became friends again (from a distance of about 1500 miles), and both eventually met and fell in love with the people who would become our life partners. My partner has stood supported me unconditionally and compassionately and lovingly through my second bout with cancer because he is on my side, and according to him there is no place he'd rather be than helping me get well and see me cross the finish line of this long and difficult race.
As others have said: if you do not truly have compassion in your heart for your wife, you don't. If you do not see yourself as being her number one supporter, you don't. If you're not part of an unbreakable team of two, you aren't. She deserves so much better. The emotional pain of being ill and not being supported by the very person who is supposed to love you through thick and thin is one of the most soul-crushing, painful, sickening things I have ever endured. Frankly, I would have preferred the pain of being cheated on to the pain of being rejected because I was ill.
And if and when you two split up -- since you profess to feel guilt on this point -- you will presumably have the decency to come to a financial arrangement to help support her so that she can have health care until such time as she can get it through work or some other way.
And always remember: nothing is guaranteed. Life is delicate. Anyone you love now or in the future could become catastrophically ill or injured. What kind of character do you want to cultivate in yourself so that you don't repeat this same pattern? What kind of character do you want to cultivate in case you find yourself on the receiving end of needing to be taken care of? Because those are the ways you create a happy family. Facebook has fuck all to do with it.
posted by scody at 7:18 PM on March 31, 2011 [100 favorites]
I've had a few close relatives who had long-term illnesses, and I'd say that being a caretaker is not for everyone. If you can't hold up your end of the relationship, you and your spouse may both suffer from it, so there are times when leaving is better for everyone that staying.
My advice, though, before you think more seriously about leaving, is to look into support groups for your spouse's illness that you and possibly your spouse can attend. Simply talking with other people in the same situation can help you to look at things without as much fear.
Also, think about what support you can get, or plan for, so that you can attend to your own needs. You don't necessarily need to be the caretaker 24 by 7.
Finally, talk to your spouse about this. I'd recommend doing so in therapy if only because it can be helpful to have someone who can step in (a la Metafilter mods) when you get stuck.
posted by zippy at 7:19 PM on March 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
My advice, though, before you think more seriously about leaving, is to look into support groups for your spouse's illness that you and possibly your spouse can attend. Simply talking with other people in the same situation can help you to look at things without as much fear.
Also, think about what support you can get, or plan for, so that you can attend to your own needs. You don't necessarily need to be the caretaker 24 by 7.
Finally, talk to your spouse about this. I'd recommend doing so in therapy if only because it can be helpful to have someone who can step in (a la Metafilter mods) when you get stuck.
posted by zippy at 7:19 PM on March 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
Why are you convinced that you would have something better if you left? Realistically, how do you see another woman responding when she's considering a serious relationship/marriage/children with you when you explain why you left your first wife....assuming you phrase it the way you did here, assuming it's not about fundamental incompatibility of personalities.
Are you going to health-screen your dates? I'm not trying to be a total asshole here. You are depressed and hurting and tired, and all of those things break the human capacity for reasonable thought. I am pointing out the fundamental flaw in your plan. You're assuming that you'll leave and that will make you happy and you will have children: that the next successful relationship will not involve human frailty and illness and disability. These things are, in fact, the ultimate outcome of all lifelong relationships where no one is killed suddenly and prematurely. Which usually isn't what any of us want.
And as much as you've done some serious care-taking of your wife...how do you think you've affected her? You tell her all of the things about your ambivalence about your relationship, and repeatedly told her you're considering leaving her. And she still says she loves you. Do you think that's easy to handle when you're healthy, let alone when you're ill, when you lose a pregnancy? Do you think that she is totally unaware that you're considering bailing now, that she has no realization that one day you might just stop idling the car in the drive, put it in reverse and not come back? Of course she has considered this, given how many times you've told her you're considering leaving, unless her illness is of a type that affects her grasp of reality.
So there's your convincing: if you're going to go....go. If you're going to stay...decide to stay and go to counseling together and work through it. Choose to be ALL IN. Right now she never knows if you're going to go, and...this dithering, these ideas of pretty Facebook lives...you are torturing her, too, and quite frankly as a chronically ill woman around her age...
If I were your wife, I would say 'Look. I love you very, very much. You are my best friend, and you've done so much for me. But I'd rather be unemployed and uninsured, living in my parents' basement, grieving this marriage and putting my life back together than to keep waking up to your uncertainty and disappointment that I am the woman living in this body, that I can't provide what you believe you need to be happy (biological pregnancy without risk of tragedy, which no woman can). Only one of these options is living with dignity, and contrary to your belief, it's not the one where I'm 35 and living in my parents' basement, poor and worried where to go from here. So I'm leaving, because as much as I love you, I can't live and die as your pity project. I'm neither that strong nor that weak. I'm so sorry.'
I don't know why she hasn't, except that she still tells you she loves you. I don't know much about your wife aside from her health problems, and if that's all you can really see of her now...you need to leave. For everyone's sake.
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 7:23 PM on March 31, 2011 [9 favorites]
Are you going to health-screen your dates? I'm not trying to be a total asshole here. You are depressed and hurting and tired, and all of those things break the human capacity for reasonable thought. I am pointing out the fundamental flaw in your plan. You're assuming that you'll leave and that will make you happy and you will have children: that the next successful relationship will not involve human frailty and illness and disability. These things are, in fact, the ultimate outcome of all lifelong relationships where no one is killed suddenly and prematurely. Which usually isn't what any of us want.
And as much as you've done some serious care-taking of your wife...how do you think you've affected her? You tell her all of the things about your ambivalence about your relationship, and repeatedly told her you're considering leaving her. And she still says she loves you. Do you think that's easy to handle when you're healthy, let alone when you're ill, when you lose a pregnancy? Do you think that she is totally unaware that you're considering bailing now, that she has no realization that one day you might just stop idling the car in the drive, put it in reverse and not come back? Of course she has considered this, given how many times you've told her you're considering leaving, unless her illness is of a type that affects her grasp of reality.
So there's your convincing: if you're going to go....go. If you're going to stay...decide to stay and go to counseling together and work through it. Choose to be ALL IN. Right now she never knows if you're going to go, and...this dithering, these ideas of pretty Facebook lives...you are torturing her, too, and quite frankly as a chronically ill woman around her age...
If I were your wife, I would say 'Look. I love you very, very much. You are my best friend, and you've done so much for me. But I'd rather be unemployed and uninsured, living in my parents' basement, grieving this marriage and putting my life back together than to keep waking up to your uncertainty and disappointment that I am the woman living in this body, that I can't provide what you believe you need to be happy (biological pregnancy without risk of tragedy, which no woman can). Only one of these options is living with dignity, and contrary to your belief, it's not the one where I'm 35 and living in my parents' basement, poor and worried where to go from here. So I'm leaving, because as much as I love you, I can't live and die as your pity project. I'm neither that strong nor that weak. I'm so sorry.'
I don't know why she hasn't, except that she still tells you she loves you. I don't know much about your wife aside from her health problems, and if that's all you can really see of her now...you need to leave. For everyone's sake.
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 7:23 PM on March 31, 2011 [9 favorites]
If 'what should I do' is your actual question then it's been pretty fully answered by now and I won't add to it.
If the title of your post is your actual question I would say, 'don't worry about it. You've already convinced yourself to get a divorce and, to be blunt, with that kind of narcissism any guilt you feel will be short lived.'
posted by Bonzai at 7:23 PM on March 31, 2011 [4 favorites]
If the title of your post is your actual question I would say, 'don't worry about it. You've already convinced yourself to get a divorce and, to be blunt, with that kind of narcissism any guilt you feel will be short lived.'
posted by Bonzai at 7:23 PM on March 31, 2011 [4 favorites]
This is a truly pitiable situation for both the OP and the wife. There was something that I noticed early in the question that kind of made me...blink....upon rereading, OP, and it was this:
My sadness started then. My parents kept suggesting that I leave her.
At first I guess I kind of skimmed over it, but the more I consider it, the more I think this is more than just a minor detail. If you're being told by your parents, who ostensibly are looking out for your best interests, that you should leave your wife, then I can understand where some of this conflicted desire to flee comes from. it's hard to tell just how much of an influence your parents are, or whether this is something that they persist in telling you, but I can tell you this much: your parents do NOT get to make that decision for you, and frankly unless your wife is abusive or behaving in an incurably destructive fashion (which doesn't seem to be the case at all), NO ONE has the right to pressure you to make a decision like that. Including "your" therapist (I agree with those above who said it should be "our" therapist).
On the other hand, I do know from experience how hard it can be to tune out "advice" like that. Family dynamics are frequently a weird and seemingly inescapable force, and I just think maybe you should ask yourself how much of this desire comes from others and how much would be yours alone if no one ever said one single word to you about it.
Should you leave? I truly don't have the answer to that. I do know that the more you devote your energies to hiding from reality in work, to planning the perfect escape, to sighing and longing for something else, the less energy you will have to put into your marriage and your wife's health and the potential children's happiness and health. We're limited creatures, we humans, and time spent sitting in the driveway thinking about leaving is time that CANNOT be spent doing ANYTHING that might actually help the situation. It also can't be very fun or rewarding to be constantly escaping (not physically, you know what I mean). I bet it would be a lot more fun and rewarding in the long term (hell, even the short term) to remember why you married this woman in the first place. Especially since from what you tell us here, she is still profoundly attached to you and loves you. That sounds like something worth getting out of the car for to me.
posted by deep thought sunstar at 7:23 PM on March 31, 2011 [8 favorites]
My sadness started then. My parents kept suggesting that I leave her.
At first I guess I kind of skimmed over it, but the more I consider it, the more I think this is more than just a minor detail. If you're being told by your parents, who ostensibly are looking out for your best interests, that you should leave your wife, then I can understand where some of this conflicted desire to flee comes from. it's hard to tell just how much of an influence your parents are, or whether this is something that they persist in telling you, but I can tell you this much: your parents do NOT get to make that decision for you, and frankly unless your wife is abusive or behaving in an incurably destructive fashion (which doesn't seem to be the case at all), NO ONE has the right to pressure you to make a decision like that. Including "your" therapist (I agree with those above who said it should be "our" therapist).
On the other hand, I do know from experience how hard it can be to tune out "advice" like that. Family dynamics are frequently a weird and seemingly inescapable force, and I just think maybe you should ask yourself how much of this desire comes from others and how much would be yours alone if no one ever said one single word to you about it.
Should you leave? I truly don't have the answer to that. I do know that the more you devote your energies to hiding from reality in work, to planning the perfect escape, to sighing and longing for something else, the less energy you will have to put into your marriage and your wife's health and the potential children's happiness and health. We're limited creatures, we humans, and time spent sitting in the driveway thinking about leaving is time that CANNOT be spent doing ANYTHING that might actually help the situation. It also can't be very fun or rewarding to be constantly escaping (not physically, you know what I mean). I bet it would be a lot more fun and rewarding in the long term (hell, even the short term) to remember why you married this woman in the first place. Especially since from what you tell us here, she is still profoundly attached to you and loves you. That sounds like something worth getting out of the car for to me.
posted by deep thought sunstar at 7:23 PM on March 31, 2011 [8 favorites]
You need a new therapist. You're basically terrified, resentful, disappointed, and angry. Terrified of what lies ahead, about how you will deal, about the possibility or reality that you're NOT the kind of person who can deal with problems. Terrified that the world (Facebook friends?) will think when they hear you left her. You seem resentful not of her illness, or modern medicine, but of HER, her not being what you imagined she would be like. Or what you imagined your ideal wife. Or more specifically, the mother of your children. You're disappointed in life, in her, in yourself, and you should be disappointed in your parents. You're angry that this is happening to you, and not to the other people who you imagine to have perfect happy unicorn lives, with baby unicorns outfitted in baby clothes, smiling for the camera. You're angry that you are so disappointed, you're disappointed that SHE keeps trying.
Those are things you should be discussing, not only with your therapist, but with yourself, your friends and most of all, your wife. You don't think she's terrified? About what her future holds? About her husband who runs away from her? About her own body's changes? Or that she's not resentful of the illness, of the thing that took away her chance to feel normal? Disappointed in everything that has happened? But she's also taking steps to rectify these feelings: changing her life to focus on what she enjoys in the here and now, taking care of herself, trying to take care of the relationship.
Do you really feel OK about saying, I am leaving my wife because I resent that she got sick?
You say: "All I ever wanted was a happy family." Well here are some ways to prioritize making that a reality:
1) Write it down. talk to your therapist about it. Talk about what that means to you. What does a happy family do that you feel yours isn't doing?
2) Tell your parents that you need their support, not their encouragement to walk away from a sick spouse (!?)
3) Talk to your wife about what happiness means to her, and to you
4) Do those things.
Grasping for the perceived happiness of families on Facebook with their overly-stylized Easter baskets and funny one-liners is not on that list.
If that ain't for you, don't stay with her out of pity. You are not her savior for staying with her out of pity.
posted by barnone at 7:30 PM on March 31, 2011 [9 favorites]
Those are things you should be discussing, not only with your therapist, but with yourself, your friends and most of all, your wife. You don't think she's terrified? About what her future holds? About her husband who runs away from her? About her own body's changes? Or that she's not resentful of the illness, of the thing that took away her chance to feel normal? Disappointed in everything that has happened? But she's also taking steps to rectify these feelings: changing her life to focus on what she enjoys in the here and now, taking care of herself, trying to take care of the relationship.
Do you really feel OK about saying, I am leaving my wife because I resent that she got sick?
You say: "All I ever wanted was a happy family." Well here are some ways to prioritize making that a reality:
1) Write it down. talk to your therapist about it. Talk about what that means to you. What does a happy family do that you feel yours isn't doing?
2) Tell your parents that you need their support, not their encouragement to walk away from a sick spouse (!?)
3) Talk to your wife about what happiness means to her, and to you
4) Do those things.
Grasping for the perceived happiness of families on Facebook with their overly-stylized Easter baskets and funny one-liners is not on that list.
If that ain't for you, don't stay with her out of pity. You are not her savior for staying with her out of pity.
posted by barnone at 7:30 PM on March 31, 2011 [9 favorites]
I'm not going to say that you are selfish. I do think, though, that one of the best pieces of advice that I received was that intimacy in marriage is not a necessarily byproduct of a tensionless marriage, but often comes from embracing hardship face-on while weathering the storms together. Trials can tear people apart, but they can also create a framework for deeper connections than might otherwise be possible. It's something that I wouldn't have thought true until I had to face some things in my own marriage. It's great to live without concerns. But the difficult trick of life, which more people have to face than not, is to stick it out together when things are tough, and to find something to love and cherish in the other person through that process, even when it's hard. You may not only find a genuine love that bubbles from this commitment, but you may find capacities in yourself that you didn't know were there. This may seem like a simplistic way of looking at complex marriages, but I do think that trying to find oneself through sacrificial love to the other person is too quickly discarded in the process of trying to hold together a marriage. And in my mind, this is really what love is: not simply the emotion, but the commitment. The good news is that the emotion often follows the commitment.
posted by SpacemanStix at 7:30 PM on March 31, 2011 [17 favorites]
posted by SpacemanStix at 7:30 PM on March 31, 2011 [17 favorites]
There's only one person responsible for my unhappiness. It's me.
Right. And leaving your wife will not guarantee you the happiness you seem to be looking for. You are not guaranteed to fall in love with a perfectly healthy woman who loves you back, and you are not guaranteed to have perfectly healthy children who grow up into healthy adults.
If you don't think you can ever accept this, don't want to accept it, and you don't love her anymore, sure, you aren't doing her any favors by staying. But think very realistically about the alternatives and what may happen. It sounds like you think everyone's life is better than yours, and if you just leave your wife your life will get better too. That is not realistic, especially when considering that shit happens to everyone at different times in their lives. What matters is not whether or not shit has happened, but how you deal with it.
posted by wondermouse at 7:35 PM on March 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
Right. And leaving your wife will not guarantee you the happiness you seem to be looking for. You are not guaranteed to fall in love with a perfectly healthy woman who loves you back, and you are not guaranteed to have perfectly healthy children who grow up into healthy adults.
If you don't think you can ever accept this, don't want to accept it, and you don't love her anymore, sure, you aren't doing her any favors by staying. But think very realistically about the alternatives and what may happen. It sounds like you think everyone's life is better than yours, and if you just leave your wife your life will get better too. That is not realistic, especially when considering that shit happens to everyone at different times in their lives. What matters is not whether or not shit has happened, but how you deal with it.
posted by wondermouse at 7:35 PM on March 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
Anonymous, you sound deeply unhappy and I'm sorry for your pain. I really encourage you to get both individual and couples counseling. Your wife has been handed a shitty deal, but she's still a young woman and deserves to know both who she's married to and what her options are for the future. I wish you both the best of luck.
Also, adopting a child into an unhappy marriage benefits no one.
posted by Space Kitty at 7:37 PM on March 31, 2011 [6 favorites]
Also, adopting a child into an unhappy marriage benefits no one.
posted by Space Kitty at 7:37 PM on March 31, 2011 [6 favorites]
I'm not saying adoption is easy, or that you should adopt.
But the fact that you don't seem to have even considered adoption, yet you're considering leaving her because she would "likely ... never have a chance to have children," says a lot. It tells me that a desire to "have children" isn't the real reason you're considering leaving her.
Sorry, I'm not going to give you a trick for not "feeling guilty" about this. Feeling guilty would be appropriate.
posted by John Cohen at 7:47 PM on March 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
But the fact that you don't seem to have even considered adoption, yet you're considering leaving her because she would "likely ... never have a chance to have children," says a lot. It tells me that a desire to "have children" isn't the real reason you're considering leaving her.
Sorry, I'm not going to give you a trick for not "feeling guilty" about this. Feeling guilty would be appropriate.
posted by John Cohen at 7:47 PM on March 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
You know how they say relationships are 50-50? That's just a saying. Every relationship is different and the relationships are sometimes 90-10 or 10-90.... and hell it may by 90-10 dishes, 50-50 who runs the remote control, and 40-60 laundry. Those things change - and you guys sound like you've been through a lot.
You say you've got PTSD from something prior to this relationship. Here's the thing - you have PTSD from the relationship too. You can't have a constant stream of bad luck, genetics, have only one income source, and whatever else is going on and not be traumatized by it. You are burned out, and you, your therapist, and probably your wife know it, though nobody knows to what degree. You've got a shit hand of cards that has been dealt to you, and hindsight points to you having zero control over this.
Here's the thing - at the core of who you are - I bet you are a good, stand-up, honest, and faithful person. All this crap though has worn you down. You don't even see that person anymore, nor know what that person would do. You don't see your wife with the eyes of someone in love with her either - you see her as an obligation, yet another shitty card life has handed you. Furthermore, it sounds as though your support system of family and therapist are... um - craptastic.
Ending things with your wife isn't going to fix your PTSD, the trauma you've endured being in the relationship, a subversively supportive family, and any manner of other issues that are going on that we don't know about. I'll be honest, in the short term - if you end it, it will get worse. Similarly, if you don't end it and you do nothing about it, its also going to get worse until you do.
You've got issues where I'd say the shit is so bad that you need outside help to provide you care. Your mental capacity to process and handle all this crap is so far gone that you are probably at that 8 or 9 out of 10 - but you just can't see it, because it isn't a physical ailment. I'll be honest - you need help - lots of it. Does your work have an Employee Assistance Program or a 24-hour nurse line? Call tonight. Call anyone who will talk. You need to get in regular outside assistance - and that means you may want to consider a church group.
And I tell you you need those things - regardless of what you decide to do. It will take a lot of work and effort - and probably years - to get you back to the part of you that you can't remember. You just need to decide if you want to do the work with your wife or alone. Let your wife know how much you are in pain... make that decision together - because its a together decision.
posted by Nanukthedog at 7:53 PM on March 31, 2011 [11 favorites]
You say you've got PTSD from something prior to this relationship. Here's the thing - you have PTSD from the relationship too. You can't have a constant stream of bad luck, genetics, have only one income source, and whatever else is going on and not be traumatized by it. You are burned out, and you, your therapist, and probably your wife know it, though nobody knows to what degree. You've got a shit hand of cards that has been dealt to you, and hindsight points to you having zero control over this.
Here's the thing - at the core of who you are - I bet you are a good, stand-up, honest, and faithful person. All this crap though has worn you down. You don't even see that person anymore, nor know what that person would do. You don't see your wife with the eyes of someone in love with her either - you see her as an obligation, yet another shitty card life has handed you. Furthermore, it sounds as though your support system of family and therapist are... um - craptastic.
Ending things with your wife isn't going to fix your PTSD, the trauma you've endured being in the relationship, a subversively supportive family, and any manner of other issues that are going on that we don't know about. I'll be honest, in the short term - if you end it, it will get worse. Similarly, if you don't end it and you do nothing about it, its also going to get worse until you do.
You've got issues where I'd say the shit is so bad that you need outside help to provide you care. Your mental capacity to process and handle all this crap is so far gone that you are probably at that 8 or 9 out of 10 - but you just can't see it, because it isn't a physical ailment. I'll be honest - you need help - lots of it. Does your work have an Employee Assistance Program or a 24-hour nurse line? Call tonight. Call anyone who will talk. You need to get in regular outside assistance - and that means you may want to consider a church group.
And I tell you you need those things - regardless of what you decide to do. It will take a lot of work and effort - and probably years - to get you back to the part of you that you can't remember. You just need to decide if you want to do the work with your wife or alone. Let your wife know how much you are in pain... make that decision together - because its a together decision.
posted by Nanukthedog at 7:53 PM on March 31, 2011 [11 favorites]
OP, the thing I would like to point out to you is that no marriage will ever be a perfect utopia of love and joy. The baggage you are carrying now will carry into any relationship you have. Do you think you could alter your thinking enough to be supportive to your wife? If you did have children, would you run away when something terrible happens (and it will, that is the nature of life).
If you can't repair your feelings about your wife, maybe moving on is better, but the guilt you would feel is the other half of that equation. Nothing in life is easy, but learning how to deal with problems makes you a better person.
Taking care of someone who is ill is difficult, and not everyone has the fortitude to do so. What helps is asking for help. It sounds like you really need some.
posted by annsunny at 8:04 PM on March 31, 2011
If you can't repair your feelings about your wife, maybe moving on is better, but the guilt you would feel is the other half of that equation. Nothing in life is easy, but learning how to deal with problems makes you a better person.
Taking care of someone who is ill is difficult, and not everyone has the fortitude to do so. What helps is asking for help. It sounds like you really need some.
posted by annsunny at 8:04 PM on March 31, 2011
You know what? Life has no guarantees.
Let's say you left your wife, married again in a year, blissfully happy. What is to say something couldn't happen to HER?
For that matter, what if something happened to YOU? Would you want to be disposed like used tissue?
Do you really think of people as disposable?
I would like to think that you do not. And that the horror of your situation is causing you to think in crazy ways. Because dude, this is crazy, these are the thoughts of a selfish son of a bitch that is dumping a woman he promised to love and cherish just because bad things have happened. Are you really that person?
Can you stop, take a deep breath, and realize that preemptive grief, altho real, is not best handled by turning into a monster.
You need to face your pain and then you need help to enable you to face the pain WITH your wife. Who is in a deep well of pain of her own complicated by choices you seem about to make.
Don't be that guy. Because I promise you, if you are any kind of decent human at all, leaving her will not make the pain stop.
It may make it a lot worse.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 8:16 PM on March 31, 2011 [9 favorites]
Let's say you left your wife, married again in a year, blissfully happy. What is to say something couldn't happen to HER?
For that matter, what if something happened to YOU? Would you want to be disposed like used tissue?
Do you really think of people as disposable?
I would like to think that you do not. And that the horror of your situation is causing you to think in crazy ways. Because dude, this is crazy, these are the thoughts of a selfish son of a bitch that is dumping a woman he promised to love and cherish just because bad things have happened. Are you really that person?
Can you stop, take a deep breath, and realize that preemptive grief, altho real, is not best handled by turning into a monster.
You need to face your pain and then you need help to enable you to face the pain WITH your wife. Who is in a deep well of pain of her own complicated by choices you seem about to make.
Don't be that guy. Because I promise you, if you are any kind of decent human at all, leaving her will not make the pain stop.
It may make it a lot worse.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 8:16 PM on March 31, 2011 [9 favorites]
To start, I'd just like to say that I genuinely don't think you're selfish - at least not more than the average person.
You've made it fairly clear that you don't love love this woman anymore, no matter how well you get along. That's something you have very little control over, and you shouldn't stay with someone you don't love out of pity. You say that you want to keep providing her with medical care - that shows that your heart is in the right place.
Everyone who's calling the OP selfish (and worse): can you honestly say that you would have the strength to do all of the following for years on end?
1) Carry on a relationship with someone you didn't love?
2) Act as a caregiver for that person?
3) Deny yourself the opportunity to pursue a romantic relationship and family with someone you did love?
posted by ripley_ at 8:16 PM on March 31, 2011 [5 favorites]
You've made it fairly clear that you don't love love this woman anymore, no matter how well you get along. That's something you have very little control over, and you shouldn't stay with someone you don't love out of pity. You say that you want to keep providing her with medical care - that shows that your heart is in the right place.
Everyone who's calling the OP selfish (and worse): can you honestly say that you would have the strength to do all of the following for years on end?
1) Carry on a relationship with someone you didn't love?
2) Act as a caregiver for that person?
3) Deny yourself the opportunity to pursue a romantic relationship and family with someone you did love?
posted by ripley_ at 8:16 PM on March 31, 2011 [5 favorites]
This is just so puzzling I can't figure out why you've posted it.
Are you leaving out some crucial detail? Is her illness a mental illness that makes her abusive toward you? Is it a contagious disease? Are you both from a culture that thinks it is okay to leave your spouse if they're unhealthy? Why were your parents telling you to leave? I honestly can't wrap my head around it.
The way you have presented it, you sound like the bad guy and it sounds like she's done nothing wrong, but you haven't been committed to her for a long time, and you're uncomfortable dealing with physical infirmity and conflict and uncertainty -- yet you still think it would be a good idea to have kids?
I second the idea that you should get a new therapist. If you can't get out of your depression or whatever it is (dissatisfaction with everything, self-punishing?), your next situation won't be any happier.
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:30 PM on March 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
Are you leaving out some crucial detail? Is her illness a mental illness that makes her abusive toward you? Is it a contagious disease? Are you both from a culture that thinks it is okay to leave your spouse if they're unhealthy? Why were your parents telling you to leave? I honestly can't wrap my head around it.
The way you have presented it, you sound like the bad guy and it sounds like she's done nothing wrong, but you haven't been committed to her for a long time, and you're uncomfortable dealing with physical infirmity and conflict and uncertainty -- yet you still think it would be a good idea to have kids?
I second the idea that you should get a new therapist. If you can't get out of your depression or whatever it is (dissatisfaction with everything, self-punishing?), your next situation won't be any happier.
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:30 PM on March 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
Nthing that you need to find a different therapist and find a couples therapist, too.
I don't know whether you should stay in the marriage or not, but you could, yes, decide to leave your wife. You'd feel badly, and then eventually you'd move on. You'd fall in love with someone new, and it might be everything you want. Or, you might discover you are infertile together, or she could have something crippling happen, or she could fall chronically ill. And there you'd be, with a needy wife, and no babies, like now.
Maybe you'd love New Wife differently and more than Current Wife, and so it wouldn't feel like such a burden. Or, you'd be trapped in your own version of Groundhog Day, until you fix the place where you get stuck. There's no way to know from here what the dynamic between you really is, but I am genuinely sorry for your pain and hope you find someone to help you both figure out what to do next.
posted by Ink-stained wretch at 8:42 PM on March 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
I don't know whether you should stay in the marriage or not, but you could, yes, decide to leave your wife. You'd feel badly, and then eventually you'd move on. You'd fall in love with someone new, and it might be everything you want. Or, you might discover you are infertile together, or she could have something crippling happen, or she could fall chronically ill. And there you'd be, with a needy wife, and no babies, like now.
Maybe you'd love New Wife differently and more than Current Wife, and so it wouldn't feel like such a burden. Or, you'd be trapped in your own version of Groundhog Day, until you fix the place where you get stuck. There's no way to know from here what the dynamic between you really is, but I am genuinely sorry for your pain and hope you find someone to help you both figure out what to do next.
posted by Ink-stained wretch at 8:42 PM on March 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
Don't assume that divorce will ruin her life. And don't stay in a marriage that is ruining yours.
But today is your first day off from the 2nd job? I'd give myself a month to think about it and then act.
If, after a month, you still are ready to get a divorce, get a divorce. Do whatever you can to be humane as you do it. Since she hasn't been working and you have, there seems like a decent chance she might get some sort of spousal support. If you can, don't contest it.
posted by arnicae at 8:44 PM on March 31, 2011
But today is your first day off from the 2nd job? I'd give myself a month to think about it and then act.
If, after a month, you still are ready to get a divorce, get a divorce. Do whatever you can to be humane as you do it. Since she hasn't been working and you have, there seems like a decent chance she might get some sort of spousal support. If you can, don't contest it.
posted by arnicae at 8:44 PM on March 31, 2011
The fact that you nearly left her when she was at a 2 (from 1 to 10) should tell you a lot about how yes -- as people are saying -- this is a problem you brought into the relationship from the start. You will take those issues into future relationships too. Guess what? People get sick and die. No one else you could ever fall in love with would be immune to those perils. So you should definitely get some help and perspective w/r/t dealing with what you have now.
I will say that the fact that you haven't left her so far, despite your parents' urgings (??) says a lot about your character.
posted by hermitosis at 8:50 PM on March 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
I will say that the fact that you haven't left her so far, despite your parents' urgings (??) says a lot about your character.
posted by hermitosis at 8:50 PM on March 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
You say this person is your friend. It's not how I'd treat a friend.
posted by the noob at 8:53 PM on March 31, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by the noob at 8:53 PM on March 31, 2011 [5 favorites]
I can only speak from my limited life experience, but here's what I can tell you. I've felt some strong emotions in my life. I've felt intense fear, deep sadness, profound loneliness. All kinds of bad feelings in all kinds of circumstances. I have never, never felt anything worse than shame and self-hatred. I will take being broke, alone, sick, confused, pretty much any state over that. I know nothing worse than shame. You're getting a taste of it now, as you anticipate making the decision to leave your wife. It doesn't get better over time.
posted by prefpara at 8:53 PM on March 31, 2011 [14 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 8:53 PM on March 31, 2011 [14 favorites]
I just want to add - we can't absolve you if you do something you feel in your heart is wrong. And we can't browbeat you into doing what you feel is right. It has to come from you.
posted by prefpara at 8:57 PM on March 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by prefpara at 8:57 PM on March 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
Also, have you ignored the reality that you could leave your wife, marry the healthiest 26 year old ever, and:
-she could have a labor with serious complications resulting in permanent physical or mental disabilities to the child;
-if born healthy, the child could contract a hospital-borne illness, and have lifelong health problems.
-your two sets of genes could combine to bring out a recessive genetic disorder in your child, unpredicted by either of you.
-your child could develop schizophrenia, other mental illness, or alcohol or drug addiction later in life.
-any of you could be part of the 10% of lung cancer patients who have never smoked.
-any of you could be in an accident, permanently disabled, or permanently reliant upon or addicted to medication.
Would you just bail on your child too if any of these thing happened? Or play this sadistic "he loves me, he loves me not" game with them all their childhood? If so, it's a really, really, really bad idea for you to have kids. If not ... why bail on the family you already have now, when you actually are facing these problems?
posted by Ashley801 at 8:57 PM on March 31, 2011 [6 favorites]
-she could have a labor with serious complications resulting in permanent physical or mental disabilities to the child;
-if born healthy, the child could contract a hospital-borne illness, and have lifelong health problems.
-your two sets of genes could combine to bring out a recessive genetic disorder in your child, unpredicted by either of you.
-your child could develop schizophrenia, other mental illness, or alcohol or drug addiction later in life.
-any of you could be part of the 10% of lung cancer patients who have never smoked.
-any of you could be in an accident, permanently disabled, or permanently reliant upon or addicted to medication.
Would you just bail on your child too if any of these thing happened? Or play this sadistic "he loves me, he loves me not" game with them all their childhood? If so, it's a really, really, really bad idea for you to have kids. If not ... why bail on the family you already have now, when you actually are facing these problems?
posted by Ashley801 at 8:57 PM on March 31, 2011 [6 favorites]
Well, I am a fountain of horrible advice, so here goes mine:
1. You need to watch the first ten minutes of the movie "up", then cry your horrible guilt-ridden selfish heart out. (your tears will not be special tears, the first ten minutes of up makes everyone feel that way, but there will be tears. You have to start with tears.)
2. Start exercising
3. Listen to the Magnetic Fields song "Grand Canyon" while imagining your wife is singing it to you. Cry more until you can begin to forgive yourself.
4. Go to couple's therapy
...
Save the marriage?
BONUS: Here's a link to the Grand Canyon song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocBvVH6SEas
posted by roboton666 at 8:59 PM on March 31, 2011
1. You need to watch the first ten minutes of the movie "up", then cry your horrible guilt-ridden selfish heart out. (your tears will not be special tears, the first ten minutes of up makes everyone feel that way, but there will be tears. You have to start with tears.)
2. Start exercising
3. Listen to the Magnetic Fields song "Grand Canyon" while imagining your wife is singing it to you. Cry more until you can begin to forgive yourself.
4. Go to couple's therapy
...
Save the marriage?
BONUS: Here's a link to the Grand Canyon song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocBvVH6SEas
posted by roboton666 at 8:59 PM on March 31, 2011
I have to honestly ask: were you ever committed to this marriage? Because these terrible tragedies that have happened to you... they are not tragedies. They are just life. That is why the "in sickness and in health, til death" etc part is in the vows. This life thing is very hard. People get sick. People have diseases. People lose pregnancies. People face infertility. ALL THE TIME.
You sound like you're asking for a hall pass because this shit got hard. You don't get a get out of jail free card because the women you married has basically become inconvenient. I would suggest that instead of running for the door, you buckle down, burn the escape plan, commit to the marriage, and go into couples therapy to figure out how to make what you actually have - the reality of life - work for you as a couple.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:06 PM on March 31, 2011 [10 favorites]
You sound like you're asking for a hall pass because this shit got hard. You don't get a get out of jail free card because the women you married has basically become inconvenient. I would suggest that instead of running for the door, you buckle down, burn the escape plan, commit to the marriage, and go into couples therapy to figure out how to make what you actually have - the reality of life - work for you as a couple.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:06 PM on March 31, 2011 [10 favorites]
The way you have presented it, you sound like the bad guy
I said this above. What I meant was this: you wrote the question this way. You wrote up your situation in a way that makes your motivations hard to understand and which makes you look like the bad guy. And then asked us to offer forgiveness for what you describe as a bad act. Obviously everyone's going to jump all over you. So think about: why did you choose to describe things this way?
You say that your marriage had a rocky start, you use the phrase "opposites attract" - I'm guessing maybe fighting? So your relationship was not on a good footing to begin with? When you got married, what were things like? What did you like doing together, what were the good parts? Have the good parts disappeared?
And then along comes illness (2 out of 10 doesn't sound very bad. Again, I'm wondering if that's accurate, or if you are presenting it this way in order to make yourself be obviously the bad guy for some reason?). And your immediate thought was to leave? Why? If you were thinking of leaving then, really think honestly about why that is -- is it because you had unrealistic expectations that your partner couldn't get sick, or that you feared being the caregiver, or that she had previously done things with/for/etc you that she couldn't do now, or that you were never really all that into the idea of being married in the first place, or what?
There is just something strange going on with your description of things.
If you don't want to talk about it here, that's fine, but your therapist should be helping you figure this out - why you're reacting this way and whether that's a good reaction (eg if you don't love her and never did, then yeah - it's a good idea to leave) or a bad one (eg if you unrealistically think that all your peers have perfect lives with no illness etc and so you should wriggle out of any obligations that are hard; or if you are trying to punish yourself in some way for some reason and act out the part of being a bad person -- either of these motivations is a bad reason to leave because you'll just repeat your unhappiness in the future).
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:36 PM on March 31, 2011 [11 favorites]
I said this above. What I meant was this: you wrote the question this way. You wrote up your situation in a way that makes your motivations hard to understand and which makes you look like the bad guy. And then asked us to offer forgiveness for what you describe as a bad act. Obviously everyone's going to jump all over you. So think about: why did you choose to describe things this way?
You say that your marriage had a rocky start, you use the phrase "opposites attract" - I'm guessing maybe fighting? So your relationship was not on a good footing to begin with? When you got married, what were things like? What did you like doing together, what were the good parts? Have the good parts disappeared?
And then along comes illness (2 out of 10 doesn't sound very bad. Again, I'm wondering if that's accurate, or if you are presenting it this way in order to make yourself be obviously the bad guy for some reason?). And your immediate thought was to leave? Why? If you were thinking of leaving then, really think honestly about why that is -- is it because you had unrealistic expectations that your partner couldn't get sick, or that you feared being the caregiver, or that she had previously done things with/for/etc you that she couldn't do now, or that you were never really all that into the idea of being married in the first place, or what?
There is just something strange going on with your description of things.
If you don't want to talk about it here, that's fine, but your therapist should be helping you figure this out - why you're reacting this way and whether that's a good reaction (eg if you don't love her and never did, then yeah - it's a good idea to leave) or a bad one (eg if you unrealistically think that all your peers have perfect lives with no illness etc and so you should wriggle out of any obligations that are hard; or if you are trying to punish yourself in some way for some reason and act out the part of being a bad person -- either of these motivations is a bad reason to leave because you'll just repeat your unhappiness in the future).
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:36 PM on March 31, 2011 [11 favorites]
Ok, so how do you 'convince yourself' and 'not feel guilty'?
Realize you're doing her a favor by leaving her. Yes, a favor. A big favor.
You seem to have some sort of misunderstanding about your worth, because you're measuring it in practical things: you can provide insurance, and companionship, and/or a baby. So if the relationship was an mini-economy, your services would be highly in demand, and you were the only supply.
But guess what? A relationship is not an economy.
As a husband, as a partner in a relationship, as an emotional support, your value is pretty low. Who in the world (with any self-esteem to speak of) would want a partner who is not 95-100% committed to the relationship they're in? It's ridiculous. Would *you* want one? Saying you're 50% committed means if you stay, you'd be doing her a favor. That is a pretty huge insult to your wife. Not making what amounts to a huge insult is, yes, a favor.
You show low empathy, low patience, and low commitment, as well as arguably low trust, all things that are the currency of relationships. You may think you were unduly tested by your wife daring to go through hardships and not breeding properly as a woman should, but this is a relatively ordinary test of a relationship. We're not talking 'Romeo and Juliet'-- it's normal for humans' partners to be sick at some point in the relationship-- if not 4 years in then 40. Everyone deals with this, and it's silly to say relationships are somehow automatically better after 40 years than after 40, insofar as there's self-selection (if they're 40 years along, there must be a reason they'd survived, but that's all-- the reason would've already been there at 4).
I don't think being sympathetic to you would help you make this decision, so as I said: you're doing her a favor. While you suffered through her illness, while you minimally took care of her needs, emotionally you've bailed long ago. All that's left is the paperwork: you are already not her husband. The only honorable thing to do is simply to admit that.
posted by reenka at 10:09 PM on March 31, 2011 [7 favorites]
Realize you're doing her a favor by leaving her. Yes, a favor. A big favor.
You seem to have some sort of misunderstanding about your worth, because you're measuring it in practical things: you can provide insurance, and companionship, and/or a baby. So if the relationship was an mini-economy, your services would be highly in demand, and you were the only supply.
But guess what? A relationship is not an economy.
As a husband, as a partner in a relationship, as an emotional support, your value is pretty low. Who in the world (with any self-esteem to speak of) would want a partner who is not 95-100% committed to the relationship they're in? It's ridiculous. Would *you* want one? Saying you're 50% committed means if you stay, you'd be doing her a favor. That is a pretty huge insult to your wife. Not making what amounts to a huge insult is, yes, a favor.
You show low empathy, low patience, and low commitment, as well as arguably low trust, all things that are the currency of relationships. You may think you were unduly tested by your wife daring to go through hardships and not breeding properly as a woman should, but this is a relatively ordinary test of a relationship. We're not talking 'Romeo and Juliet'-- it's normal for humans' partners to be sick at some point in the relationship-- if not 4 years in then 40. Everyone deals with this, and it's silly to say relationships are somehow automatically better after 40 years than after 40, insofar as there's self-selection (if they're 40 years along, there must be a reason they'd survived, but that's all-- the reason would've already been there at 4).
I don't think being sympathetic to you would help you make this decision, so as I said: you're doing her a favor. While you suffered through her illness, while you minimally took care of her needs, emotionally you've bailed long ago. All that's left is the paperwork: you are already not her husband. The only honorable thing to do is simply to admit that.
posted by reenka at 10:09 PM on March 31, 2011 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: In the ideal world, you stick with the one you love through thick and thin.
In the real world, sometimes things get hard and you realize your relationship was not as strong as you expected, and you don't love them as much as you thought. Or maybe you weren't ready to love them, or anyone, as much as is needed to get through the hard time. Shit, 50% of marriages eventually fail. That's not because the couples involved were having a great time and decided to randomly end it. It's because they hit a snag, however big or small that snag might be, and they realized their relationship couldn't cut it. Who are you to judge him for not having the prescience that 50% of married couples don't have?
The OP doesn't love his wife any more. I don't know why anyone would try to guilt this guy into staying. There are hundreds of questions on AskMefi along the lines of "I don't love this person anymore but they're great, should I stay?" and everyone says "Go, it's not fair to either of you." The illness makes this more tragic, but the situation is not terribly different. Once love is lost it's terribly hard to find again, especially in stressful situations, and you certainly can't use a base of guilt and shame.
The OP's wife deserves someone who will be her support despite the illness. And OP, you deserve to find someone who you'll want to support despite their illness--because I guarantee in any marriage and with any child you have there will be dark times where you will be called to do difficult, unpleasant things for the one you love. Leave this marriage, but before you enter another keep that in mind and next time make sure the one you marry is worth that to you.
posted by Anonymous at 10:15 PM on March 31, 2011
In the real world, sometimes things get hard and you realize your relationship was not as strong as you expected, and you don't love them as much as you thought. Or maybe you weren't ready to love them, or anyone, as much as is needed to get through the hard time. Shit, 50% of marriages eventually fail. That's not because the couples involved were having a great time and decided to randomly end it. It's because they hit a snag, however big or small that snag might be, and they realized their relationship couldn't cut it. Who are you to judge him for not having the prescience that 50% of married couples don't have?
The OP doesn't love his wife any more. I don't know why anyone would try to guilt this guy into staying. There are hundreds of questions on AskMefi along the lines of "I don't love this person anymore but they're great, should I stay?" and everyone says "Go, it's not fair to either of you." The illness makes this more tragic, but the situation is not terribly different. Once love is lost it's terribly hard to find again, especially in stressful situations, and you certainly can't use a base of guilt and shame.
The OP's wife deserves someone who will be her support despite the illness. And OP, you deserve to find someone who you'll want to support despite their illness--because I guarantee in any marriage and with any child you have there will be dark times where you will be called to do difficult, unpleasant things for the one you love. Leave this marriage, but before you enter another keep that in mind and next time make sure the one you marry is worth that to you.
posted by Anonymous at 10:15 PM on March 31, 2011
Mod note: If you cannot comment without spleen venting please feel free not to comment, thank you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:16 PM on March 31, 2011
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:16 PM on March 31, 2011
the long term prognosis was very dim....
I became obsessed with the long term medical woes. In my mind she was my "dying wife".
Just wanted to echo comments above encouraging you to get a new therapist. If the one you are working with currently didn't see major red flags with the outlook you described here, that's a problem.
Thinking in the "long term," all of us are "dying." In cognitive-behavior therapy terms, what you were/are doing there is called "catastrophizing." Your wife isn't dying NOW; she's just sick, a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10! That is tough, for both of you, but it's not like she's already gone. It sounds like you've kind of emotionally written her off, which is a terrible thing to do, especially if she's aware that this is how you are thinking of her.
Speaking of that last bit, it's likely that your wife not only feels the sorrow and fear that would be natural for someone who's been through what she has, she might also feel guilt for depriving you of the "happy family" you want--especially as you've been straightforward at times about your desires to leave. Yikes, I can't even imagine what that would be like for her. She really needs someone's unconditional support right now, and it would be wonderful if (with couples counseling) you could change your outlook to the point that you'd be able to give her that. What you are doing right now is the opposite. You're loading on her the burden of your own fears and disappointments, when she already has more than enough of her own to bear.
As for your own needs and desires, please listen to what prefpara posted above. This is really insightful and sounds like it would be applicable to you, as you seem like a person who agonizes over circumstances quite a lot. Really ask yourself if you'd be able to live with yourself (leaving aside whether you'd find someone else who'd want to live with you), if you'd walked out on your wife, your best friend, at her most vulnerable. I just can't see this working out for you. If you were that callous, you wouldn't have asked this question. You may feel trapped now, but at least you're not trapped in a tragedy of your own making.
I think your therapist is right about one thing: you need to stop waffling. But your answer should be that you're in. For the long haul. Give yourself the freedom just to commit; stop agonizing. Love your wife, and tell her you love her. You might find it's easier to do this when you are free of the guilt that comes from constantly wondering if and when you're going to walk out the door. Just cutting that thinking loose may help you be happier and more relaxed.
Finally, what you say about your parents' advice is truly appalling, unless there is some major untold side of this story. Please stay away from their toxic and inhumane opinions, and get some better counseling toward health and happiness for both yourself and your wife.
None of this is intended to sound judgmental; to be honest, your whole post just sounds like depression talking, and that's not easy to kick. I'm sorry you're going through all this, and wish you luck.
posted by torticat at 10:34 PM on March 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
I became obsessed with the long term medical woes. In my mind she was my "dying wife".
Just wanted to echo comments above encouraging you to get a new therapist. If the one you are working with currently didn't see major red flags with the outlook you described here, that's a problem.
Thinking in the "long term," all of us are "dying." In cognitive-behavior therapy terms, what you were/are doing there is called "catastrophizing." Your wife isn't dying NOW; she's just sick, a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10! That is tough, for both of you, but it's not like she's already gone. It sounds like you've kind of emotionally written her off, which is a terrible thing to do, especially if she's aware that this is how you are thinking of her.
Speaking of that last bit, it's likely that your wife not only feels the sorrow and fear that would be natural for someone who's been through what she has, she might also feel guilt for depriving you of the "happy family" you want--especially as you've been straightforward at times about your desires to leave. Yikes, I can't even imagine what that would be like for her. She really needs someone's unconditional support right now, and it would be wonderful if (with couples counseling) you could change your outlook to the point that you'd be able to give her that. What you are doing right now is the opposite. You're loading on her the burden of your own fears and disappointments, when she already has more than enough of her own to bear.
As for your own needs and desires, please listen to what prefpara posted above. This is really insightful and sounds like it would be applicable to you, as you seem like a person who agonizes over circumstances quite a lot. Really ask yourself if you'd be able to live with yourself (leaving aside whether you'd find someone else who'd want to live with you), if you'd walked out on your wife, your best friend, at her most vulnerable. I just can't see this working out for you. If you were that callous, you wouldn't have asked this question. You may feel trapped now, but at least you're not trapped in a tragedy of your own making.
I think your therapist is right about one thing: you need to stop waffling. But your answer should be that you're in. For the long haul. Give yourself the freedom just to commit; stop agonizing. Love your wife, and tell her you love her. You might find it's easier to do this when you are free of the guilt that comes from constantly wondering if and when you're going to walk out the door. Just cutting that thinking loose may help you be happier and more relaxed.
Finally, what you say about your parents' advice is truly appalling, unless there is some major untold side of this story. Please stay away from their toxic and inhumane opinions, and get some better counseling toward health and happiness for both yourself and your wife.
None of this is intended to sound judgmental; to be honest, your whole post just sounds like depression talking, and that's not easy to kick. I'm sorry you're going through all this, and wish you luck.
posted by torticat at 10:34 PM on March 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
I cried at that line thinking about how awful I am
For what it's worth I don't think you're awful at all. It's tough to be stuck in a marriage to a person you're no longer in love with. It's tough to look ahead 5,10,20 years in your life and realise that you're going to have to be primary caretaker to a very ill person and will have to give up dreams of a normal life with children, unplanned happy outings and everything that most normal people seem to get almost effortlessly. And at 34, it probably seems like time is running out for you to even have a chance to get all that.
You've been dealt a rough hand. Take care of yourself, think carefully about both the pros and cons of leaving. Yes, the cons will include feeling like an awful human being (for a very very long time), being judged by friends and family, possibly by potential future partners when they find out why your first marriage ended.
Whatever you decide, do it as kindly as possible.
posted by roshni at 10:49 PM on March 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
For what it's worth I don't think you're awful at all. It's tough to be stuck in a marriage to a person you're no longer in love with. It's tough to look ahead 5,10,20 years in your life and realise that you're going to have to be primary caretaker to a very ill person and will have to give up dreams of a normal life with children, unplanned happy outings and everything that most normal people seem to get almost effortlessly. And at 34, it probably seems like time is running out for you to even have a chance to get all that.
You've been dealt a rough hand. Take care of yourself, think carefully about both the pros and cons of leaving. Yes, the cons will include feeling like an awful human being (for a very very long time), being judged by friends and family, possibly by potential future partners when they find out why your first marriage ended.
Whatever you decide, do it as kindly as possible.
posted by roshni at 10:49 PM on March 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
Health insurance is not a reason to stay with someone especially now that the Congress passed healthcare reform. If your wife is truly so sick she can't work than she will get social security and she will get Medicaid or Medicare. There are also the high risk pools and also a market for individual plans in 2014. She will also have cobra rights for 18 months.
But your question wasn't really about Heath insurance. Being really sick and unable to conceive a child sucks. Being with someone who only pities you and doesn't want to be with you sucks worse.
posted by bananafish at 11:07 PM on March 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
But your question wasn't really about Heath insurance. Being really sick and unable to conceive a child sucks. Being with someone who only pities you and doesn't want to be with you sucks worse.
posted by bananafish at 11:07 PM on March 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't know why anyone would try to guilt this guy into staying. There are hundreds of questions on AskMefi along the lines of "I don't love this person anymore but they're great, should I stay?" and everyone says "Go, it's not fair to either of you." The illness makes this more tragic, but the situation is not terribly different.
Because in this case she isn't employed (I don't know if it's impossible for her to be employed now) and won't have health insurance without him. Most AskMefis involve people who are able to take care of themselves if the partner leaves. And uh, "healthcare reform" hasn't exactly worked out that way. Yeah, it sucks to be stuck with someone you no longer want, or to be dependent on someone who clearly doesn't want you and can't deal with "in sickness." But I don't see a better option for his wife out there than him unless he decides to go out and find her another husband to pass the buck and bills to. Yay America.
If you really want to leave, and it sounds like you do, you're just going to have to take the guilt upon yourself for the rest of your life. There's no way around that. Accept that you are a bad person who cannot cope with someone else being ill and then well... what other people said about your future prospects.
At the very least, please separate in such a way as to preserve her insurance.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:12 PM on March 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
Because in this case she isn't employed (I don't know if it's impossible for her to be employed now) and won't have health insurance without him. Most AskMefis involve people who are able to take care of themselves if the partner leaves. And uh, "healthcare reform" hasn't exactly worked out that way. Yeah, it sucks to be stuck with someone you no longer want, or to be dependent on someone who clearly doesn't want you and can't deal with "in sickness." But I don't see a better option for his wife out there than him unless he decides to go out and find her another husband to pass the buck and bills to. Yay America.
If you really want to leave, and it sounds like you do, you're just going to have to take the guilt upon yourself for the rest of your life. There's no way around that. Accept that you are a bad person who cannot cope with someone else being ill and then well... what other people said about your future prospects.
At the very least, please separate in such a way as to preserve her insurance.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:12 PM on March 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
Please understand that all those other marriages you're jealous of, the ones that look oh-so-happy to you, are full of their own problems. Every marriage has its problems, it's just that you can't see them. So, starting over with a new wife would merely present a new set of problems.
posted by exphysicist345 at 11:19 PM on March 31, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by exphysicist345 at 11:19 PM on March 31, 2011 [6 favorites]
Pain
Guilt
Self-Pity
Fear
Dread
Loss [of tangible things and of self]
Grief
These have been mine and my partner's experiences. Things that we have recognised as useful markers of growth for dealing with chronic illness:
Being a carer is very difficult. A carer needs to recognise and address their own needs - just in different ways to the person who needs the primary care. Finding out more information on the illness/on caring/ on dealing with doctors, possibly a support group of carers with whom you can share your honest feelings are possible avenues.
Comparisons to others, flight responses, blame and self pity are basic and understandable reactions to chronic illness. Your partner has experienced the same things with her diagnosis, hospitalisations and treatment. Acknowledge you have a shared fate and feel trapped by it. You need help managing that is not being provided by your current therapist.
Wanting a family and having those feelings dashed by your circumstances is a real grief. Again, one that you are sharing with your wife. I recommend, as others have, proper joint counseling with a therapist - someone who has some background in chronic disease or infertility.
This happened to us too: looking for reasons why your marriage never made sense before this diagnosis. It may be true on some level but back-pedaling is not taking responsibility for the fact that you deeply love[d] this person and imagined a long life with them, enough to spend time/money/energy to publicly declare it. Having those dreams dashed by an illness is not a sign from the gods or anything that you made a bad decision.
Looking for validation from your parents to divorce is a problem and one you have to firmly reject. By their reasoning, will it be okay to leave them if they become unwell by telling yourself you were never that attached to them anyway? Would it be okay for you to tell your father to leave your mother because she was sick? This conversation demeans the choice you made as a functioning adult to marry this person in the first place, and keeps you in an infantilised position. If they have reasons for disrespecting your choice, they need to zip it now that you are married. It's not helping you face an adult situation.
Threatening your partner with abandonment is a way of manifesting anger at your situation. It's okay to be angry. You don't need to threaten abandonment in order to register your anger. You are attached emotionally to your partner and this shit has happened and you have to share in its effects.
Even if you don't end up staying with her forever, for any other reason you might have, try to parse this particular situation more critically, than going with the glut of emotions that arise out of such a difficult situation. Good luck.
posted by honey-barbara at 11:47 PM on March 31, 2011 [5 favorites]
Guilt
Self-Pity
Fear
Dread
Loss [of tangible things and of self]
Grief
These have been mine and my partner's experiences. Things that we have recognised as useful markers of growth for dealing with chronic illness:
Being a carer is very difficult. A carer needs to recognise and address their own needs - just in different ways to the person who needs the primary care. Finding out more information on the illness/on caring/ on dealing with doctors, possibly a support group of carers with whom you can share your honest feelings are possible avenues.
Comparisons to others, flight responses, blame and self pity are basic and understandable reactions to chronic illness. Your partner has experienced the same things with her diagnosis, hospitalisations and treatment. Acknowledge you have a shared fate and feel trapped by it. You need help managing that is not being provided by your current therapist.
Wanting a family and having those feelings dashed by your circumstances is a real grief. Again, one that you are sharing with your wife. I recommend, as others have, proper joint counseling with a therapist - someone who has some background in chronic disease or infertility.
This happened to us too: looking for reasons why your marriage never made sense before this diagnosis. It may be true on some level but back-pedaling is not taking responsibility for the fact that you deeply love[d] this person and imagined a long life with them, enough to spend time/money/energy to publicly declare it. Having those dreams dashed by an illness is not a sign from the gods or anything that you made a bad decision.
Looking for validation from your parents to divorce is a problem and one you have to firmly reject. By their reasoning, will it be okay to leave them if they become unwell by telling yourself you were never that attached to them anyway? Would it be okay for you to tell your father to leave your mother because she was sick? This conversation demeans the choice you made as a functioning adult to marry this person in the first place, and keeps you in an infantilised position. If they have reasons for disrespecting your choice, they need to zip it now that you are married. It's not helping you face an adult situation.
Threatening your partner with abandonment is a way of manifesting anger at your situation. It's okay to be angry. You don't need to threaten abandonment in order to register your anger. You are attached emotionally to your partner and this shit has happened and you have to share in its effects.
Even if you don't end up staying with her forever, for any other reason you might have, try to parse this particular situation more critically, than going with the glut of emotions that arise out of such a difficult situation. Good luck.
posted by honey-barbara at 11:47 PM on March 31, 2011 [5 favorites]
From what you wrote, I don't think you'll ever be able to be a good husband to your wife. You seem completely devoid of affection or caring (even in a companionate way) for her - it's almost like she disgusts you. I understand that sometimes people end up married to people they don't love - and that's hard. But you seem to be torturing her emotionally. I can only imagine how she feels about herself right now. Your leaving is going to be extremely hard on her but she'll get over it one day and it's far better than the alternative - which is continuing to mess up her sanity.
Move on, do as little damage as you can in the separation, and then take a cold hard look at yourself before you get involved with anyone else, and for the love of God, before you have children. Children are people too, you know. With problems and imperfections. They aren't status symbols or something that's done because you're a certain age and that's what people do at that age. You do seem capable of emotion, at least in regard to yourself, and maybe a good therapist could help you learn to direct some of that emotion outward, in the form of sympathy toward others.
posted by Jess the Mess at 11:53 PM on March 31, 2011 [3 favorites]
Move on, do as little damage as you can in the separation, and then take a cold hard look at yourself before you get involved with anyone else, and for the love of God, before you have children. Children are people too, you know. With problems and imperfections. They aren't status symbols or something that's done because you're a certain age and that's what people do at that age. You do seem capable of emotion, at least in regard to yourself, and maybe a good therapist could help you learn to direct some of that emotion outward, in the form of sympathy toward others.
posted by Jess the Mess at 11:53 PM on March 31, 2011 [3 favorites]
Good grief. Your post is all about you: how you feel, how if you leave your wife she can never have children (why, because there will never be anyone else to love her?), never have health insurance; and how even though she is sick and just lost a baby, is trying to make you happy.
I think you need to get a divorce already so she can get on with her life. You're holding her back.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:56 PM on March 31, 2011 [4 favorites]
I think you need to get a divorce already so she can get on with her life. You're holding her back.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:56 PM on March 31, 2011 [4 favorites]
I was moved to respond to this post in ways that startle me. I am not the OP's wife, but in another dimension I could be his ex wife. And I feel no urge to shame or embarrass him, and I don't feel like moralizing much. Instead I feel a lot of compassion, and I say this from the perspective of the sick wife.
I was very sick for nearly a decade. That's a decade of doctor after doctor, diagnosis after diagnosis, a decade of me not working, of me only functioning at, maybe--and I still have trouble facing this--only 40% capacity. I didn't want anyone to know about my illness because just after I was diagnosed my Ex told a friend of his. When I next saw the friend he looked at me with such pity, I could have murdered him with a glance....
Being someone that people suddenly feel sorry for is a tremendously destructive thing. And when you're young--and like the OP's wife I was in my very early 30s when I really got sick (before that I was at a steady 2 or 3)--your friends aren't yet old enough to have experience with illness. Make brief but honest mention of your situation to the wrong person, and they take three steps back. In a lot of cases, you might as well have some modern version of the plague. Avoidance, subject-changing, differential treatment, a startlingly primal--and nearly universal-- kind of fear--and from the most unlikely people. If it happened to her, it could happen to me. If it can happen to people my age, it can happen to—— Yeah, panic, big time. People just want to block it out, and in most cases they're not the tiniest bit versed (through, say, the large extended multi-generation families of once upon a time) in how to deal with it--or even what to say. Think about how badly so many (often younger) folks behave when someone dies. No shows. Stupid questions. You've heard the complaints before if you read things like ask.metafilter. This isn't out of meanness; it's out of gut level fear and broken down traditions that don't provide much rote guidance. This undoubtedly plays a role in the OP's flight response, too, but it's only a small piece of it (as honey-barbara so astutely notes).
Yet another piece is the secrecy: I quickly learned to tell no one unless I knew for sure they'd already passed into that other country where people get sick, and even die. But even with some of those folks, you often end up consoling those with whom you're simply being honest. And even when that *doesn't* happen, you often end up getting bizarre questions or intrusive advice. It's exhausting and depressing, and it makes what you'd love to escape become inescapable.
An "invisible disability," which is what I have and the OP's wife has, makes that possible. It has its perks, but also its down sides. Without visual clues there are no visual reminders. And at times when your ill health really should be taken seriously, it isn't.
All of these issues affect the OP, too. Maybe not as much, maybe not in the same way, but they take their toll, along with the expectation (however imposed) that the healthy partner will be strong, cheerful, valiant, energetic, able to carry the load not for one, but for two much of the time. This in fact plays into seemingly ancient and seemingly inexhaustible ideas about American manhood. Think about it. It's not just about sickness and health; even more often, I'd venture, the idea of the male role in marriage is about providing and protecting--and, in a more generalized way, solving problems. Yet this is not a problem they can solve, or easily provide for, though they try (look at how thoroughly the OP has analyzed his wife's possible response to keeping his health care). And this is despite the fact--and this is something I worried about a lot--that often it's inevitable that being with a sick person is just downright oppressive. And as the sick person you feel tremendous guilt for that. It doesn't matter how the other person deals with it. It's still just terribly horribly awfully guilt-inducing. The ironic thing is, the well person feels just as guilty. The whole thing is so damned complicated. Don't judge too quickly.
To make matters worse, it's all very well to say that "in sickness and health you marry" but at 30-some-odd you're not very old and that's the time lives are really shaping: kids, career, and all that goes with it. And if you are among the few to not have kids at that age, many of your friends go too, and they go for good. That means that not only are you with a sick partner, but you're also suddenly considerably more isolated.
Then, too, the power structure of a relationship changes in negative nuanced ways when one partner not only supports but also cares for an unwell other. There's an inevitable quality of neediness, of victimhood, of dependence no matter how independent, strong-willed, and self-reliant the sick person is. At 30-some-odd, you face the prospect of another 40 or 50 years of this ... alone much of the time. This is a very precise kind of loneliness.
Finally, not only are most folks not raised to talk about these issues, so they are confusingly distorted and tremendously difficult to parse when they arise, but men, in particular, are so very often not socialized to talk about and dissect anything of any emotional complexity. It's not that they don't have the feelings; it's that they haven't learned the skills. To project my own case back, it was to my tremendous surprise that I learned my very liberal very educated Ex confided in no one much, ever. Even his closest boyhood friends—and he had many—he'd at best confess to maybe a "bad day," and his friend would nod and pat Ex's back and then they'd run off to play football together. (Though things like football get curtailed, too, if your partner isn't always very energetic; as do social engagements. Read more isolation or doing things all by yourself.)
The fact that the OP has a counselor is excellent. I can't say whether the counselor's advice is good or bad. If, in fact, the OP has been waffling for three years, maybe the best thing for him to do is make a decision.... What he seems to be clearly implying is that it was a mismatch from the beginning. Maybe.
But before he decides, I wonder if the OP has thought about:
Who around them knows of her illness? How many confidantes does the OP have?(It's often easier for men to talk honestly with women. Does he have any female relatives or older female friends he can talk to?)
Unlike everyone else, I think it's more important that the OP and his wife sort out their feelings in counseling, independently, before going into couples counseling. So is your wife in counseling, too? Guaranteed, her feelings are just as conflicted as the OP's. She may love him, she may not. The complicating factor is she thinks she really needs him, which may be an expression of fear, more than reality, and, of course, feeds into the OP's fears about and for her, too, making the whole cycle even harder to untangle. I'm sure that she worries she may never have another partner just as much as the OP worries about this for her. In fact, I've noticed that it's rare that one person loses interest while the other person remains interested. Usually couples feelings, deep down, are pretty par for one another, no matter what gets said or how it looks.
So what about friendship? What does the OP mean by calling his wife his "best friend"? Do you say that meaning that you still amuse each other? Or do you have interests and hobbies in common? Are your values similar? How do you feel about money? Religion? Home life vs. a social life? How do you feel about doing things alone, if she's feeling under the weather? You need to parse that more. The more you understand your feelings about her, separate from her illness, the easier your decision will be.
And the decision to stay or go will get easier depending on those feelings. It's no good if the OP and his wife's fears are negatively reinforcing each other, making them both feel trapped. Modern relationships are about free will, after all--many commentators' idealism notwithstanding.
Anyway, in my own case, to conclude this unconscionably long and slightly belated post, my Ex did walk out only weeks after my ailment pretty much became permanently controlled. There were myriad reasons for the break-up, but I couldn't help but feel a lot of it was that my Ex couldn't cope with feeling he'd somehow failed me, that I'd somehow seen him at his worst, and he couldn't stand that I bore witness. And he didn't know how to talk about it, and I couldn't, obviously, do the talking for him, not that I had all the words either.
I wonder if the OP is dealing with a bit of "provider failure syndrome," too. In the beginning, after my Ex walked he blamed himself for everything, which I kept saying couldn't possibly be true. Soon after thereafter, he blamed everything on me, and behaved so badly, I know he will never forgive himself. (And of course the fault cannot entirely be mine either.)
Yet he lives with it. He's remarried. I don't know if he's happy. And I don't miss him. Like the OP, he dealt with his feelings by withdrawing, which is an all too common way men are socialized to behave during emotional times. Unfortunately, nothing will kill a relationship quicker. And that has nothing to do with illness. It's all, in retrospect, made me rethink the proponents of radical honesty within a relationship, and couples counseling at the very first whiff of a problem. I haven't reached a conclusion about this, I only know life is hard.
And if your life is hard enough and thankless enough that you do choose to leave her, if all this talk about maybe sticking with her isn't really speaking to a central problem of incompatibility complicated by illness, then behave impeccably when you go.
You won't be doing this for her (as nice as that would be), you will be doing this for yourself. Whenever there is a divorce, guilt buries all parties, and I think it probably takes years for everyone to stop second-guessing themselves--to forgive themselves. Don't give yourself anything to feel guilty about. Be kind. Don't avoid her, but don't waver either. Answer all her questions as best you can. Use a mediator, not a divorce lawyer. And make sure she has enough money to provide her with a small place to live and a modest life-style for the next few years if at all possible. (Some states will mandate this for you, depending on where you live; if yours does not, do it anyway.) This, above all, is what she will need in order to get on her feet again. Don't make her start from scratch back at her parents.
Finally, thank you for providing me with a forum to think through the other side. If you (after this long, long post) possibly want to try to exchange any further thoughts on this, email me. You have already done me good; hopefully, I have done a little bit to return the favor.
Best of luck.
posted by Violet Blue at 3:27 AM on April 1, 2011 [113 favorites]
I was very sick for nearly a decade. That's a decade of doctor after doctor, diagnosis after diagnosis, a decade of me not working, of me only functioning at, maybe--and I still have trouble facing this--only 40% capacity. I didn't want anyone to know about my illness because just after I was diagnosed my Ex told a friend of his. When I next saw the friend he looked at me with such pity, I could have murdered him with a glance....
Being someone that people suddenly feel sorry for is a tremendously destructive thing. And when you're young--and like the OP's wife I was in my very early 30s when I really got sick (before that I was at a steady 2 or 3)--your friends aren't yet old enough to have experience with illness. Make brief but honest mention of your situation to the wrong person, and they take three steps back. In a lot of cases, you might as well have some modern version of the plague. Avoidance, subject-changing, differential treatment, a startlingly primal--and nearly universal-- kind of fear--and from the most unlikely people. If it happened to her, it could happen to me. If it can happen to people my age, it can happen to—— Yeah, panic, big time. People just want to block it out, and in most cases they're not the tiniest bit versed (through, say, the large extended multi-generation families of once upon a time) in how to deal with it--or even what to say. Think about how badly so many (often younger) folks behave when someone dies. No shows. Stupid questions. You've heard the complaints before if you read things like ask.metafilter. This isn't out of meanness; it's out of gut level fear and broken down traditions that don't provide much rote guidance. This undoubtedly plays a role in the OP's flight response, too, but it's only a small piece of it (as honey-barbara so astutely notes).
Yet another piece is the secrecy: I quickly learned to tell no one unless I knew for sure they'd already passed into that other country where people get sick, and even die. But even with some of those folks, you often end up consoling those with whom you're simply being honest. And even when that *doesn't* happen, you often end up getting bizarre questions or intrusive advice. It's exhausting and depressing, and it makes what you'd love to escape become inescapable.
An "invisible disability," which is what I have and the OP's wife has, makes that possible. It has its perks, but also its down sides. Without visual clues there are no visual reminders. And at times when your ill health really should be taken seriously, it isn't.
All of these issues affect the OP, too. Maybe not as much, maybe not in the same way, but they take their toll, along with the expectation (however imposed) that the healthy partner will be strong, cheerful, valiant, energetic, able to carry the load not for one, but for two much of the time. This in fact plays into seemingly ancient and seemingly inexhaustible ideas about American manhood. Think about it. It's not just about sickness and health; even more often, I'd venture, the idea of the male role in marriage is about providing and protecting--and, in a more generalized way, solving problems. Yet this is not a problem they can solve, or easily provide for, though they try (look at how thoroughly the OP has analyzed his wife's possible response to keeping his health care). And this is despite the fact--and this is something I worried about a lot--that often it's inevitable that being with a sick person is just downright oppressive. And as the sick person you feel tremendous guilt for that. It doesn't matter how the other person deals with it. It's still just terribly horribly awfully guilt-inducing. The ironic thing is, the well person feels just as guilty. The whole thing is so damned complicated. Don't judge too quickly.
To make matters worse, it's all very well to say that "in sickness and health you marry" but at 30-some-odd you're not very old and that's the time lives are really shaping: kids, career, and all that goes with it. And if you are among the few to not have kids at that age, many of your friends go too, and they go for good. That means that not only are you with a sick partner, but you're also suddenly considerably more isolated.
Then, too, the power structure of a relationship changes in negative nuanced ways when one partner not only supports but also cares for an unwell other. There's an inevitable quality of neediness, of victimhood, of dependence no matter how independent, strong-willed, and self-reliant the sick person is. At 30-some-odd, you face the prospect of another 40 or 50 years of this ... alone much of the time. This is a very precise kind of loneliness.
Finally, not only are most folks not raised to talk about these issues, so they are confusingly distorted and tremendously difficult to parse when they arise, but men, in particular, are so very often not socialized to talk about and dissect anything of any emotional complexity. It's not that they don't have the feelings; it's that they haven't learned the skills. To project my own case back, it was to my tremendous surprise that I learned my very liberal very educated Ex confided in no one much, ever. Even his closest boyhood friends—and he had many—he'd at best confess to maybe a "bad day," and his friend would nod and pat Ex's back and then they'd run off to play football together. (Though things like football get curtailed, too, if your partner isn't always very energetic; as do social engagements. Read more isolation or doing things all by yourself.)
The fact that the OP has a counselor is excellent. I can't say whether the counselor's advice is good or bad. If, in fact, the OP has been waffling for three years, maybe the best thing for him to do is make a decision.... What he seems to be clearly implying is that it was a mismatch from the beginning. Maybe.
But before he decides, I wonder if the OP has thought about:
Who around them knows of her illness? How many confidantes does the OP have?(It's often easier for men to talk honestly with women. Does he have any female relatives or older female friends he can talk to?)
Unlike everyone else, I think it's more important that the OP and his wife sort out their feelings in counseling, independently, before going into couples counseling. So is your wife in counseling, too? Guaranteed, her feelings are just as conflicted as the OP's. She may love him, she may not. The complicating factor is she thinks she really needs him, which may be an expression of fear, more than reality, and, of course, feeds into the OP's fears about and for her, too, making the whole cycle even harder to untangle. I'm sure that she worries she may never have another partner just as much as the OP worries about this for her. In fact, I've noticed that it's rare that one person loses interest while the other person remains interested. Usually couples feelings, deep down, are pretty par for one another, no matter what gets said or how it looks.
So what about friendship? What does the OP mean by calling his wife his "best friend"? Do you say that meaning that you still amuse each other? Or do you have interests and hobbies in common? Are your values similar? How do you feel about money? Religion? Home life vs. a social life? How do you feel about doing things alone, if she's feeling under the weather? You need to parse that more. The more you understand your feelings about her, separate from her illness, the easier your decision will be.
And the decision to stay or go will get easier depending on those feelings. It's no good if the OP and his wife's fears are negatively reinforcing each other, making them both feel trapped. Modern relationships are about free will, after all--many commentators' idealism notwithstanding.
Anyway, in my own case, to conclude this unconscionably long and slightly belated post, my Ex did walk out only weeks after my ailment pretty much became permanently controlled. There were myriad reasons for the break-up, but I couldn't help but feel a lot of it was that my Ex couldn't cope with feeling he'd somehow failed me, that I'd somehow seen him at his worst, and he couldn't stand that I bore witness. And he didn't know how to talk about it, and I couldn't, obviously, do the talking for him, not that I had all the words either.
I wonder if the OP is dealing with a bit of "provider failure syndrome," too. In the beginning, after my Ex walked he blamed himself for everything, which I kept saying couldn't possibly be true. Soon after thereafter, he blamed everything on me, and behaved so badly, I know he will never forgive himself. (And of course the fault cannot entirely be mine either.)
Yet he lives with it. He's remarried. I don't know if he's happy. And I don't miss him. Like the OP, he dealt with his feelings by withdrawing, which is an all too common way men are socialized to behave during emotional times. Unfortunately, nothing will kill a relationship quicker. And that has nothing to do with illness. It's all, in retrospect, made me rethink the proponents of radical honesty within a relationship, and couples counseling at the very first whiff of a problem. I haven't reached a conclusion about this, I only know life is hard.
And if your life is hard enough and thankless enough that you do choose to leave her, if all this talk about maybe sticking with her isn't really speaking to a central problem of incompatibility complicated by illness, then behave impeccably when you go.
You won't be doing this for her (as nice as that would be), you will be doing this for yourself. Whenever there is a divorce, guilt buries all parties, and I think it probably takes years for everyone to stop second-guessing themselves--to forgive themselves. Don't give yourself anything to feel guilty about. Be kind. Don't avoid her, but don't waver either. Answer all her questions as best you can. Use a mediator, not a divorce lawyer. And make sure she has enough money to provide her with a small place to live and a modest life-style for the next few years if at all possible. (Some states will mandate this for you, depending on where you live; if yours does not, do it anyway.) This, above all, is what she will need in order to get on her feet again. Don't make her start from scratch back at her parents.
Finally, thank you for providing me with a forum to think through the other side. If you (after this long, long post) possibly want to try to exchange any further thoughts on this, email me. You have already done me good; hopefully, I have done a little bit to return the favor.
Best of luck.
posted by Violet Blue at 3:27 AM on April 1, 2011 [113 favorites]
First of all, your parents who "keep suggesting (I) leave her" --- this is NONE of their business. It sounds like your depression + her depression + your harassing parents = one huge mess.
Next, a new therapist for you and a couples therapist for both of you.
posted by easily confused at 3:52 AM on April 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Next, a new therapist for you and a couples therapist for both of you.
posted by easily confused at 3:52 AM on April 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Wow. Violet Blue - that was the best interpersonal response I have ever read here. Ever.
posted by Nanukthedog at 5:09 AM on April 1, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by Nanukthedog at 5:09 AM on April 1, 2011 [5 favorites]
Most guys, when they say "in sickness and in health" in a tux can't really know what that means at the time. You said it, and, unfortunately, now you know. All of us, at some time, will know.
And, no, there is no way you can leave guilt free. Because you made a promise.
Of course it's hard. Of course you have fantasies of leaving. But the only real way out is through. That's why we're men and not boys.
But you're doing it the hard way. You're doing it more or less alone. Worse than alone actually, because your parents are planting well-meaning but harmful rationalizations in your head. And you are surrounded by a culture that prizes personal fulfillment over personal sacrifice. You need to find a new culture.
You need to get some supportive people around you right now. Find a support group of caregivers. Find a social outlet for you and your wife that will support your commitment. Find some respite help for yourself and resources for her.
And I don't know what your spiritual tradition, if any, might be. But consider that just about any spiritual discipline worth anything recognizes the value of sacrificing for the other, of relieving suffering, of works of mercy, of simply being present with someone who needs your presence. You might think that sticking with your wife robs you of your personal fulfillment, but maybe that is your path. A very few of us are destined to live their purpose in the spotlight. Most of us are meant to slog it out in the trenches of Love. And it's not for wimps.
So man up. Surround yourself with others who do the same. Get away from the haters and the naysayers. And embrace your wife.
posted by cross_impact at 6:34 AM on April 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
And, no, there is no way you can leave guilt free. Because you made a promise.
Of course it's hard. Of course you have fantasies of leaving. But the only real way out is through. That's why we're men and not boys.
But you're doing it the hard way. You're doing it more or less alone. Worse than alone actually, because your parents are planting well-meaning but harmful rationalizations in your head. And you are surrounded by a culture that prizes personal fulfillment over personal sacrifice. You need to find a new culture.
You need to get some supportive people around you right now. Find a support group of caregivers. Find a social outlet for you and your wife that will support your commitment. Find some respite help for yourself and resources for her.
And I don't know what your spiritual tradition, if any, might be. But consider that just about any spiritual discipline worth anything recognizes the value of sacrificing for the other, of relieving suffering, of works of mercy, of simply being present with someone who needs your presence. You might think that sticking with your wife robs you of your personal fulfillment, but maybe that is your path. A very few of us are destined to live their purpose in the spotlight. Most of us are meant to slog it out in the trenches of Love. And it's not for wimps.
So man up. Surround yourself with others who do the same. Get away from the haters and the naysayers. And embrace your wife.
posted by cross_impact at 6:34 AM on April 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
She deserves better. Please leave her instead of making her follow you around saying "I love you" all the time. Make sure she'll be able to care for herself, whether that means legal separation rather than divorce or whatever. Honestly, you don't love her and what you're doing (waffling while making sure she knows it) is unbelievably cruel. Go ahead and make some babies with someone who you won't emotionally torture.
posted by pineappleheart at 8:06 AM on April 1, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by pineappleheart at 8:06 AM on April 1, 2011 [5 favorites]
Ok, I'm at work so I haven't read through everything above, sorry if I've missed something important. But I wanted to jump in to say that I have been in your wife's position, ie with someone who was constantly telling me how unhappy they were being with me, how they wantes to leave, even going so far as to tell me that they hated me. But for some reason he would nevee leave, even when I told him he should. This is classic emotional abuse, as well as selfish on your part. Staying with her as some sort of "favor" to her, all the while telling her you don't want to be there, and refusing to participate emotionally in the relationship, is a very cruel thing on your part. Do her a better favor by walking already. Don't worry about where the chips of her life will fall - she's an adult, she'll sort out her life on her own.
posted by vignettist at 8:17 AM on April 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by vignettist at 8:17 AM on April 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Spousal caregiver support: http://www.wellspouse.org
posted by luckynerd at 8:51 AM on April 1, 2011 [10 favorites]
posted by luckynerd at 8:51 AM on April 1, 2011 [10 favorites]
I favorited violet blue's response. I don't think shaming the OP for having these feelings, regrettable feelings though they may be, is productive or kind.
posted by Lieber Frau at 12:41 PM on April 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by Lieber Frau at 12:41 PM on April 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
I was going to say what Violet Blue said, but there is no way I would have said it so eloquently.
In that vein, after it's all said and done, after you've tried both individual and couple's therapy, I don't think moving on and allowing your wife to move on, means it's the end of the world. I think everyone should know thyself. Know your limitations. I will go out on a limb to say that I bet you were one of those people who got married because it was "time." Based on the rest of your post ("I just wanted a happy family"), you seem like the type who makes the lists, who's more intellectually-rooted than emotionally so. It doesn't seem like you ever had that "I can't see myself ever living without her" buttefly thing that a lot of people have about their life partners. I think this is why it is easier for you to contemplate leaving your wife now. Quiet is kept, every relationship is not meant for the long haul. Sometimes they run their course and they teach us about ourselves and there's nothing more to give on either side. You will be the bad guy here, your name will be mud throughout your social circle, and you will feel guilty for a very long time. But when all the noise subsides and it's just you and your wife--not your parents--both open and unafraid, I thnk the right answer will come.
posted by GeniPalm at 4:01 PM on April 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
In that vein, after it's all said and done, after you've tried both individual and couple's therapy, I don't think moving on and allowing your wife to move on, means it's the end of the world. I think everyone should know thyself. Know your limitations. I will go out on a limb to say that I bet you were one of those people who got married because it was "time." Based on the rest of your post ("I just wanted a happy family"), you seem like the type who makes the lists, who's more intellectually-rooted than emotionally so. It doesn't seem like you ever had that "I can't see myself ever living without her" buttefly thing that a lot of people have about their life partners. I think this is why it is easier for you to contemplate leaving your wife now. Quiet is kept, every relationship is not meant for the long haul. Sometimes they run their course and they teach us about ourselves and there's nothing more to give on either side. You will be the bad guy here, your name will be mud throughout your social circle, and you will feel guilty for a very long time. But when all the noise subsides and it's just you and your wife--not your parents--both open and unafraid, I thnk the right answer will come.
posted by GeniPalm at 4:01 PM on April 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
OP, I hope you're still reading, though I know this must be a very tough thread to get through. Your question/situation has been in my mind ever since I answered yesterday. I read violetblue's amazing, eloquent, insightful response earlier and I think she hits on some incredibly important things about how difficult it may be for you to have been able to formulate any emotional response to all of this other than sadness and withdrawal.
And, like others, I keep thinking about your passing comment regarding your parents. The thing that strikes me about both the fact that your parents would encourage you to abandon your wife for being sick (this is assuming that there's no big part of the story that you're leaving out) and the issues violetblue touches on about men not often knowing how to articulate/express their feelings (even among their closest friends) is that you, yourself, may never have actually seen what caretaking and compassion in the face of crisis really looks like. Our culture certainly doesn't provide any model for men to follow on this score, and maybe (admittedly, I'm just inferring based on that one line about your parents) your parents' own marriage didn't provide a model for you, either.
Combine that with what GeniPalm notes about the possibility that you and your wife got married not so much out of a deep sense of partnership and togetherness but more because it seemed like "well, it's time" (which is largely how my ex-husband and I felt about it ourselves, to be honest), then what you are left with to fall back on in a crisis is... not much at all, really.
Look, it may be that you and your wife were never meant to be married in the first place, illness or not. That's what I came to realize after my divorce, without animosity or blame, was a key part of the situation with my ex-husband, independent of how my illness played into it. We just shouldn't have gotten married in the first place. As individuals and as a couple, we didn't have the truly deep, loving partnership that a marriage is supposed to represent and strengthen in the first place. It doesn't mean either of us were bad people, even though bad things happened in our marriage that caused a lot of pain.
A book I recommend all the time in relationship threads is How to Be an Adult in Relationships. Whether you ultimately stay or go in your marriage, I think it would be helpful for you either way, as it can help you identify what qualities and factors may have been lacking in your own family of origin before you ever met your wife, and how you can identify and work through the blocks you might personally have in terms of creating a a truly meaningful, strong, abiding bond with someone that will see you through not just the happy times but the inevitable hard times as well.
posted by scody at 5:03 PM on April 1, 2011 [7 favorites]
And, like others, I keep thinking about your passing comment regarding your parents. The thing that strikes me about both the fact that your parents would encourage you to abandon your wife for being sick (this is assuming that there's no big part of the story that you're leaving out) and the issues violetblue touches on about men not often knowing how to articulate/express their feelings (even among their closest friends) is that you, yourself, may never have actually seen what caretaking and compassion in the face of crisis really looks like. Our culture certainly doesn't provide any model for men to follow on this score, and maybe (admittedly, I'm just inferring based on that one line about your parents) your parents' own marriage didn't provide a model for you, either.
Combine that with what GeniPalm notes about the possibility that you and your wife got married not so much out of a deep sense of partnership and togetherness but more because it seemed like "well, it's time" (which is largely how my ex-husband and I felt about it ourselves, to be honest), then what you are left with to fall back on in a crisis is... not much at all, really.
Look, it may be that you and your wife were never meant to be married in the first place, illness or not. That's what I came to realize after my divorce, without animosity or blame, was a key part of the situation with my ex-husband, independent of how my illness played into it. We just shouldn't have gotten married in the first place. As individuals and as a couple, we didn't have the truly deep, loving partnership that a marriage is supposed to represent and strengthen in the first place. It doesn't mean either of us were bad people, even though bad things happened in our marriage that caused a lot of pain.
A book I recommend all the time in relationship threads is How to Be an Adult in Relationships. Whether you ultimately stay or go in your marriage, I think it would be helpful for you either way, as it can help you identify what qualities and factors may have been lacking in your own family of origin before you ever met your wife, and how you can identify and work through the blocks you might personally have in terms of creating a a truly meaningful, strong, abiding bond with someone that will see you through not just the happy times but the inevitable hard times as well.
posted by scody at 5:03 PM on April 1, 2011 [7 favorites]
I'm picking up on one little piece of this: freaking out when your wife's health goes from a 1 to a 2 out of 10, and then gotten worse. Whether or not you decide to stay in this relationship, please figure this one out -- for your wife and yourself.
Are you so terrified of illness that you can't be helpful in the face of it? Do minor daily tasks related to care-giving bother you excessively? Unless your scale is way off, 2 out of 10 doesn't come with medical horrors. It comes with minor adjustments to daily living, maybe some extra MD appointments. Tiring, annoying and depressing, maybe, but not obviously connected to gloom and doom scenarios. I can only imagine what you're feeling if she's at a 5 out of ten now...
Maybe you entered this relationship with some baggage concerning a sick friend or relative, or you're spending too much time reading hysterical internet sites about your wife's condition(s). You sound depressed, which may magnify your response to challenging issues. But you won't be able to help her, help yourself, or even take care of a kid's fever, vomiting or anything slightly more serious unless you can work on calibrating your responses to health issues.
Your therapist should be able to help you with this. So should your wife's doctors and your own.
posted by paindemie at 2:13 PM on April 2, 2011
Are you so terrified of illness that you can't be helpful in the face of it? Do minor daily tasks related to care-giving bother you excessively? Unless your scale is way off, 2 out of 10 doesn't come with medical horrors. It comes with minor adjustments to daily living, maybe some extra MD appointments. Tiring, annoying and depressing, maybe, but not obviously connected to gloom and doom scenarios. I can only imagine what you're feeling if she's at a 5 out of ten now...
Maybe you entered this relationship with some baggage concerning a sick friend or relative, or you're spending too much time reading hysterical internet sites about your wife's condition(s). You sound depressed, which may magnify your response to challenging issues. But you won't be able to help her, help yourself, or even take care of a kid's fever, vomiting or anything slightly more serious unless you can work on calibrating your responses to health issues.
Your therapist should be able to help you with this. So should your wife's doctors and your own.
posted by paindemie at 2:13 PM on April 2, 2011
Violet Blue, reading your comment is the only time I have ever viscerally felt the expression "I wish I could favorite it a thousand times."
OP, if you're still reading, you've been getting an absolute ton of judge.me that frankly seems related to your gender. There's a strong narrative in our culture that says "men are assholes," which some of us are too prone to accept unthinkingly, especially when we feel like we're in an ambiguous moral situation and feeling confused and vulnerable, and especially when that situation involves intimacy with women.
More generally, you've been getting a lot of people pointing sternly at ideals I don't get the sense have really been tested in them the way they're being tested in you right now. I notice, and I hope you'll also notice, that the people who seem to have most closely been in a situation like yours have the most compassionate and least judgmental responses.
You do what is best for you. I don't know what that might be, but I will say this: "commit to someone and stay with them through thick and thin" often masquerades as a moral injunction, but really it is a _strategy_ for happiness that some people have found useful. In its most selfless incarnation, it's a piece of advice, not a sentence. Do it if it works for you; if it does, you'll have the bonus benefit of feeling like you've lived up to what society expects of you. But if it doesn't work out for you, or, since it's a strategy that necessarily requires a lifetime of adherence before it can be evaluated, if your instinct tells you this isn't the partner with whom you want to commit to like that, don't do it. "Do you really want to be the kind of person who leaves his sick wife" is based on exactly the measuring-your-life-by-comparing-yourself-to-others that those same people chide you for with respect to your looking at Facebook. Do what you feel will make you happy.
Finally, I hope this isn't taken to be trivializing your problem, but sometimes a book, or movie, or in this case a play adapted into an HBO mini-series, helps to get a handle on things, to concretize/externalize things, if only a little: I recommend Tony Kushner's Angels in America, which has a situation somewhat like yours.
Good luck.
posted by skwt at 12:58 AM on April 4, 2011 [3 favorites]
OP, if you're still reading, you've been getting an absolute ton of judge.me that frankly seems related to your gender. There's a strong narrative in our culture that says "men are assholes," which some of us are too prone to accept unthinkingly, especially when we feel like we're in an ambiguous moral situation and feeling confused and vulnerable, and especially when that situation involves intimacy with women.
More generally, you've been getting a lot of people pointing sternly at ideals I don't get the sense have really been tested in them the way they're being tested in you right now. I notice, and I hope you'll also notice, that the people who seem to have most closely been in a situation like yours have the most compassionate and least judgmental responses.
You do what is best for you. I don't know what that might be, but I will say this: "commit to someone and stay with them through thick and thin" often masquerades as a moral injunction, but really it is a _strategy_ for happiness that some people have found useful. In its most selfless incarnation, it's a piece of advice, not a sentence. Do it if it works for you; if it does, you'll have the bonus benefit of feeling like you've lived up to what society expects of you. But if it doesn't work out for you, or, since it's a strategy that necessarily requires a lifetime of adherence before it can be evaluated, if your instinct tells you this isn't the partner with whom you want to commit to like that, don't do it. "Do you really want to be the kind of person who leaves his sick wife" is based on exactly the measuring-your-life-by-comparing-yourself-to-others that those same people chide you for with respect to your looking at Facebook. Do what you feel will make you happy.
Finally, I hope this isn't taken to be trivializing your problem, but sometimes a book, or movie, or in this case a play adapted into an HBO mini-series, helps to get a handle on things, to concretize/externalize things, if only a little: I recommend Tony Kushner's Angels in America, which has a situation somewhat like yours.
Good luck.
posted by skwt at 12:58 AM on April 4, 2011 [3 favorites]
you've been getting a lot of people pointing sternly at ideals I don't get the sense have really been tested in them the way they're being tested in you right now.
I didn't specifically mention my experience, but I AM in the OP's shoes and have been for a while. I did not mention it in my original answer and I doubt I am the only one who does not feel the only valid answers are ones where "me too" is included. You being judgemental of others in this thread without knowing their personal history and assuming gender bias is not really conducive to helping the OP work through a complex problem by encouraging him to be dismissive of the varied opinions here (especially from women) unless they agree with a course of action he already feels is against his values.
Happiness is certainly one goal in life, however I think adherence to solely pursuing pure solitary happiness can lead to an empty life with few meaningful relationships or other accomplishments beyond being happy. As the OP mentioned the guilt and was clearly quite conflicted (not to mention showing signs of Depression to those of us familiar with that mental illness) many of us were suggesting introspection and professional help rather than rash, short-term decisions that the OP may regret.
posted by saucysault at 6:58 AM on April 4, 2011
I didn't specifically mention my experience, but I AM in the OP's shoes and have been for a while. I did not mention it in my original answer and I doubt I am the only one who does not feel the only valid answers are ones where "me too" is included. You being judgemental of others in this thread without knowing their personal history and assuming gender bias is not really conducive to helping the OP work through a complex problem by encouraging him to be dismissive of the varied opinions here (especially from women) unless they agree with a course of action he already feels is against his values.
Happiness is certainly one goal in life, however I think adherence to solely pursuing pure solitary happiness can lead to an empty life with few meaningful relationships or other accomplishments beyond being happy. As the OP mentioned the guilt and was clearly quite conflicted (not to mention showing signs of Depression to those of us familiar with that mental illness) many of us were suggesting introspection and professional help rather than rash, short-term decisions that the OP may regret.
posted by saucysault at 6:58 AM on April 4, 2011
Oh, and OP, in light of the fact that your parents thought it was appropriate to counsel you to leave a moderately ill wife who you knew was ill when you married her (and you appear to take their suggestion seriously) and now you are asking for the hive mind to make a decision for you I wonder if you need to explore the dynamics between you and your parents and how that relationship has impacted your ability to take responsibility for and make adult decisions and if their values (provide a perfect, happy family or else walk away from responsibilities guilt-free) are YOUR values.
posted by saucysault at 7:26 AM on April 4, 2011
posted by saucysault at 7:26 AM on April 4, 2011
saucysault,
Maybe my wording was too strident. I didn't intend to invalidate others' comments; I wanted to put a competing narrative out there to give the OP some perspective on what may be underlying forces at work in his situation, and other people's responses to his situation. But I acknowledge that I have my own biases and I would hope the OP would be able to both use and disregard any messages he feels would be useful to him from both myself and others.
My emphasis on broader cultural narratives though was meant to denaturalize exactly the kind of comment you first made: "Guilt is your subconscious telling you you are doing something your values tell you is wrong." Values don't come from nowhere, and while I normally wouldn't advocate a full-scale revaluation of one's values, in times of extreme crisis sometimes just such a maneuver is exactly what's necessary for one's survival. I think anyone who goes through life without ever having to do this should consider themselves lucky. Being able to go through life considering yourself a good person has as much to do with your position in society and the situations life has thrown at you as it does with your personal moral character. A society's values do not come from nowhere; they serve certain groups more than others. They serve the powerful. In the abstract most people agree on what's right and what's wrong, but in practice those areas that are vehemently policed and those in which it's communally taken for granted that "no one really abides by that, it's okay to transgress" vary widely according to communities of self-interest.
People derided this guy for comparing himself to the people he sees on Facebook, but we all derive meaning from comparing ourselves with the people around us. It may be that Facebook is an unwise source of comparison for the OP right now, and maybe it's arguable that Facebook short-circuits our ability to accurate gauge how we compare to other people, but we all do compare ourselves to other people. We do this for lots of trivial reasons, but we also do it for guidance in our moral lives. Morality is a communal enterprise. If you're not a saint-like fanatic or a sociopath, you probably take your cues from what you see other people doing, more or less. This is evident when you compare people's behaviour across cultures. However, this doesn't mean one can opt out of one's culture's morality. We internalize our culture's morality and we police ourselves subconsciously, as you say, through our feelings. We really do feel bad when we do "wrong" things; this isn't an "illusion," and, overall, it's a good thing, because it keeps us acting kind towards each other. However, the sense of well-being one derives from acting in accord with one's culture's morality can sometimes be at odds with what might be characterized as one's own personal happiness. In perfect times these two things don't clash, but in imperfect times they do, and we have to negotiate a compromise between them. Luckily, one's values, though they do run incredibly deep, aren't 100% write-protected. In times of extreme duress, it's possible to summon up those cables of the deep, examine how and why they were created the way they were, and possibly alter them a little so that you're not constantly in a state of discord.
You say "happiness is certainly one goal in life," implying it's not the only one, and I agree, in a narrow sense, such as how I've used it in this comment, that it's only one. There are others, including "the sense of well-being one derives from acting in accord with one's culture's morality." However, it would be a misrepresentation of reality to assert that anyone, finally, doesn't carve out a path that suits them best, according to how strong their sense of morality is vs their desire for "personal happiness." We all do this. If you've never had to make a trade-off, I repeat, it is as much due to privilege and luck as it is attributable to your own worth. Happiness is necessary for survival and should not be lightly dismissed. I would advise the OP, and anyone else, to find a course of action with which he or she can live.
posted by skwt at 2:22 PM on April 4, 2011 [3 favorites]
Maybe my wording was too strident. I didn't intend to invalidate others' comments; I wanted to put a competing narrative out there to give the OP some perspective on what may be underlying forces at work in his situation, and other people's responses to his situation. But I acknowledge that I have my own biases and I would hope the OP would be able to both use and disregard any messages he feels would be useful to him from both myself and others.
My emphasis on broader cultural narratives though was meant to denaturalize exactly the kind of comment you first made: "Guilt is your subconscious telling you you are doing something your values tell you is wrong." Values don't come from nowhere, and while I normally wouldn't advocate a full-scale revaluation of one's values, in times of extreme crisis sometimes just such a maneuver is exactly what's necessary for one's survival. I think anyone who goes through life without ever having to do this should consider themselves lucky. Being able to go through life considering yourself a good person has as much to do with your position in society and the situations life has thrown at you as it does with your personal moral character. A society's values do not come from nowhere; they serve certain groups more than others. They serve the powerful. In the abstract most people agree on what's right and what's wrong, but in practice those areas that are vehemently policed and those in which it's communally taken for granted that "no one really abides by that, it's okay to transgress" vary widely according to communities of self-interest.
People derided this guy for comparing himself to the people he sees on Facebook, but we all derive meaning from comparing ourselves with the people around us. It may be that Facebook is an unwise source of comparison for the OP right now, and maybe it's arguable that Facebook short-circuits our ability to accurate gauge how we compare to other people, but we all do compare ourselves to other people. We do this for lots of trivial reasons, but we also do it for guidance in our moral lives. Morality is a communal enterprise. If you're not a saint-like fanatic or a sociopath, you probably take your cues from what you see other people doing, more or less. This is evident when you compare people's behaviour across cultures. However, this doesn't mean one can opt out of one's culture's morality. We internalize our culture's morality and we police ourselves subconsciously, as you say, through our feelings. We really do feel bad when we do "wrong" things; this isn't an "illusion," and, overall, it's a good thing, because it keeps us acting kind towards each other. However, the sense of well-being one derives from acting in accord with one's culture's morality can sometimes be at odds with what might be characterized as one's own personal happiness. In perfect times these two things don't clash, but in imperfect times they do, and we have to negotiate a compromise between them. Luckily, one's values, though they do run incredibly deep, aren't 100% write-protected. In times of extreme duress, it's possible to summon up those cables of the deep, examine how and why they were created the way they were, and possibly alter them a little so that you're not constantly in a state of discord.
You say "happiness is certainly one goal in life," implying it's not the only one, and I agree, in a narrow sense, such as how I've used it in this comment, that it's only one. There are others, including "the sense of well-being one derives from acting in accord with one's culture's morality." However, it would be a misrepresentation of reality to assert that anyone, finally, doesn't carve out a path that suits them best, according to how strong their sense of morality is vs their desire for "personal happiness." We all do this. If you've never had to make a trade-off, I repeat, it is as much due to privilege and luck as it is attributable to your own worth. Happiness is necessary for survival and should not be lightly dismissed. I would advise the OP, and anyone else, to find a course of action with which he or she can live.
posted by skwt at 2:22 PM on April 4, 2011 [3 favorites]
skwt, maybe I am misreading you but it sounds like we agree with each other. When I made my original plithy comment inwas trying to point out to the OP that the feeling they identified the strongest with, guilt, was indicating that their preferred course of action was not something their values agreed with and that they should examine the source of those values and deconstruct them. I was of course talking about his personal values as without those values he would have left his wife as his parent's suggested without feeling his actions contravened his personal values. As an aside, his parents values now completely free him from having any involvement or responsibility in his parent's lives as they inevitably (sp?) become ill at some point. As to being happy,as he is clearly so conflicted that neither of his options will give him happiness until he full commits to the one that reflects his true personal values
posted by saucysault at 4:19 PM on April 4, 2011
posted by saucysault at 4:19 PM on April 4, 2011
Fair enough. I think I had quite the opposite reading of your original pithy comment, but I'm happy to be in agreement.
posted by skwt at 10:03 PM on April 4, 2011
posted by skwt at 10:03 PM on April 4, 2011
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posted by SMPA at 6:17 PM on March 31, 2011 [8 favorites]