Bipolar filter: Righteous indignation or education? Making the world safe for individuals with bipolar disorder.
March 22, 2011 12:31 PM Subscribe
Bipolar filter: Righteous indignation or education? Making the world safe for individuals with bipolar disorder.
Some of the people I do a project with have been recently throwing around comments about how crazy so and so is, or how they themselves are going to end up "in a mental hospital."
Now while I work hard at not being what some people call "too sensitive", I've also worked hard to stay stable and actually my last visit to the bin was almost 25 years ago (I'm a type I.) And no, all of us aren't raving lunatics (which I know you educated Metafites know already). I'm just wondering if it's worth my time to educate them. (School those ignorant bastards!)
My version involves coming out of the closet but would not jeopardize my job as it is a volunteer gig, not the one that pays the bills. But you know how people talk, and this is a big city that's a small town.
I just get annoyed with people and their ignorant remarks, but I don't thinking I'm helping by keeping my mouth shut.
Or is my problem just that I care too much what they think? comments or clarification to sockpuppet account at bipolarbear33 (at) gmail (dot) com.
Some of the people I do a project with have been recently throwing around comments about how crazy so and so is, or how they themselves are going to end up "in a mental hospital."
Now while I work hard at not being what some people call "too sensitive", I've also worked hard to stay stable and actually my last visit to the bin was almost 25 years ago (I'm a type I.) And no, all of us aren't raving lunatics (which I know you educated Metafites know already). I'm just wondering if it's worth my time to educate them. (School those ignorant bastards!)
My version involves coming out of the closet but would not jeopardize my job as it is a volunteer gig, not the one that pays the bills. But you know how people talk, and this is a big city that's a small town.
I just get annoyed with people and their ignorant remarks, but I don't thinking I'm helping by keeping my mouth shut.
Or is my problem just that I care too much what they think? comments or clarification to sockpuppet account at bipolarbear33 (at) gmail (dot) com.
I'm not sure. I came into this thread intending to speak on the side of gentle outreach and education, but it seems like they aren't actually specifically saying, "LOL bipolar!" but rather "Wow, X is CRAZY!" and "Wow, I'm working so hard I feel like I'm going to end up in a mental hospital!"
If that is a correct interpretation, it sounds like you're being a little too sensitive in this particularly situation, particularly since this is a volunteer position. If you're unhappy with the volunteer position, I'm sure there are plenty of other worthy institutions that would be grateful for your time and energy. There are probably some great organizations that are looking for people who are willing to do outreach and education about the realities of mental illness, treatment for which still sadly lacks acceptance in many parts of the United States.
posted by arnicae at 12:37 PM on March 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
If that is a correct interpretation, it sounds like you're being a little too sensitive in this particularly situation, particularly since this is a volunteer position. If you're unhappy with the volunteer position, I'm sure there are plenty of other worthy institutions that would be grateful for your time and energy. There are probably some great organizations that are looking for people who are willing to do outreach and education about the realities of mental illness, treatment for which still sadly lacks acceptance in many parts of the United States.
posted by arnicae at 12:37 PM on March 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
You have a choice between trying to change other people's relatively harmless behavior or changing the way you react to it. To me, it sounds like an easy choice to make.
posted by rocket88 at 12:47 PM on March 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by rocket88 at 12:47 PM on March 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't think that taking people to task for calling things 'crazy' will have the effect you hope it will have.
You may care too much about what they think.
posted by amicamentis at 12:48 PM on March 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
You may care too much about what they think.
posted by amicamentis at 12:48 PM on March 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
In this case, I think that even if you say something, it's not going to enlighten them so much as make them uncomfortable around you because they'll always be trying to monitor their speech so as not to offend you. Not that you SHOULDN'T be offended necessarily - but I think it's probably asking too much in today's world for people to not call someone else "crazy" - that's a level of PC-ness that we as a society just are not at. I know part of your intention here to so move them towards that future society, but I really just don't see it happening. I think you're better off brushing it off and leaving it alone.
posted by coupdefoudre at 12:50 PM on March 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by coupdefoudre at 12:50 PM on March 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't try and do this as part of some sort of Grand Unveiling or anything, but perhaps if you have certain people you are close to and have some private time with, you can explain things to them on a one-to-one basis, and maybe trust them to spread the word through the grapevine. One thing you cannot do, unfortunately, is expect things to change overnight, or to ever change completely. While this is an important issue to you, you have to understand that it is not such an important issue to them. Even with the best of intentions, they will slip up occasionally.
posted by Rock Steady at 12:50 PM on March 22, 2011
posted by Rock Steady at 12:50 PM on March 22, 2011
This is pretty much the same as the joke about how eating too many sweets is going to give you diabetes. Which, I'm sure, isn't entertaining at all to anyone who's actually diabetic and isn't how it actually works. Usually extended psychological stress, compounded with possible underlying medical conditions and social issues are what leads someone to end up on a psych ward. It happens.
My personal version is that there are two types of "crazy:" there's the "crazy" person who does wacky things, is a blast at parties, and acts against social norms. Then there's mentally ill, which is not crazy. Mental illness is just a thing that happens, due to the reasons I outlined.
Then there's the bad crazy. The one where you're mentally ill, but you either don't acknowledge it, or you enable it. That's enabling the bad-crazy, and you don't want that. But really, I doubt your coworkers are doing that.
So if they're actually conflating mental illness with being "crazy," maybe a gentle reminder is useful. If they're saying that they're really stressed out, maybe let them get away with a remark or two, because people really do end up mentally ill that way and some humor about it can defuse that meltdown in some cases.
posted by mikeh at 12:56 PM on March 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
My personal version is that there are two types of "crazy:" there's the "crazy" person who does wacky things, is a blast at parties, and acts against social norms. Then there's mentally ill, which is not crazy. Mental illness is just a thing that happens, due to the reasons I outlined.
Then there's the bad crazy. The one where you're mentally ill, but you either don't acknowledge it, or you enable it. That's enabling the bad-crazy, and you don't want that. But really, I doubt your coworkers are doing that.
So if they're actually conflating mental illness with being "crazy," maybe a gentle reminder is useful. If they're saying that they're really stressed out, maybe let them get away with a remark or two, because people really do end up mentally ill that way and some humor about it can defuse that meltdown in some cases.
posted by mikeh at 12:56 PM on March 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
I would encourage you to come out to people in your life who matter to you, when you're ready and when you want to. In this case, you're talking about people who are exhibiting, as you noted, ignorance about mental health issues and insensitivity in their use of language. But this is a very common, even pervasive view of mental health issues in many places.
If you're hesitant to out yourself to them you may have good reasons for being hesitant, so I'd suggest listening to yourself about that. I've had similar experience being around people who say "fag" or "that's so gay." Coming out about your mental health can be a powerful move in cases like this (just as it is about sexual or gender identity) because it forces them to confront the fact that someone they know is part of this "other" they were disparaging through these comparisons or use of phrases and words.
It sounds like your ideas about mental health may be at least partly aligned with the Mad Pride movement, which if you aren't familiar with, you can read about in this NY Times article. This may be a source of some strength and community for you as you approach coming out and other related issues.
My own experiences getting to know colleagues who self identify as Mad have taught me to understand what this kind of language means to them and because of that I've often changed the way I use it or at least been more aware of it. I'm grateful to them for that, and these people might feel similarly.
posted by jardinier at 12:56 PM on March 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
If you're hesitant to out yourself to them you may have good reasons for being hesitant, so I'd suggest listening to yourself about that. I've had similar experience being around people who say "fag" or "that's so gay." Coming out about your mental health can be a powerful move in cases like this (just as it is about sexual or gender identity) because it forces them to confront the fact that someone they know is part of this "other" they were disparaging through these comparisons or use of phrases and words.
It sounds like your ideas about mental health may be at least partly aligned with the Mad Pride movement, which if you aren't familiar with, you can read about in this NY Times article. This may be a source of some strength and community for you as you approach coming out and other related issues.
My own experiences getting to know colleagues who self identify as Mad have taught me to understand what this kind of language means to them and because of that I've often changed the way I use it or at least been more aware of it. I'm grateful to them for that, and these people might feel similarly.
posted by jardinier at 12:56 PM on March 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
I would call them out. At work, this can just be a "that's making fun of people with mental health issues, and it's not okay". If they're saying this stuff in a group setting, I think it's helpful for everyone in the group to hear at once that you're not okay with it. You don't have to come out to indicate that they are saying something offensive.
I was super-nervous calling out a coworker for fat-hating, but she took it well and I felt really good when she, months later, told another coworker to knock it off after an offensive-to-the-deaf comment. Speaking up helps make your workplace safer for other people to speak up.
That said, my goal is to get people to not be assholes when they're around me. YMWV if you want to change their underlying beliefs.
posted by momus_window at 1:05 PM on March 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
I was super-nervous calling out a coworker for fat-hating, but she took it well and I felt really good when she, months later, told another coworker to knock it off after an offensive-to-the-deaf comment. Speaking up helps make your workplace safer for other people to speak up.
That said, my goal is to get people to not be assholes when they're around me. YMWV if you want to change their underlying beliefs.
posted by momus_window at 1:05 PM on March 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
You can correct people without "outing" yourself.
Just gently tell them in the moment that using those types of characterizations make you uncomfortable.
If people ask why you spoke up, you can always say, "I've known people who had to struggle with serious mental illness. It's very very sad." Or you know, something similar.
I don't think you must bring up your personal life at all to make the point you want to make!
posted by jbenben at 1:08 PM on March 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
Just gently tell them in the moment that using those types of characterizations make you uncomfortable.
If people ask why you spoke up, you can always say, "I've known people who had to struggle with serious mental illness. It's very very sad." Or you know, something similar.
I don't think you must bring up your personal life at all to make the point you want to make!
posted by jbenben at 1:08 PM on March 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm going to second the "we have different levels of crazy" bit that mikeh said. I highly doubt anyone making jokes about a mental hospital is really thinking of the poor bipolar people getting treatment and trying to be offensive about it. They're thinking more of a joke version of, a la the movie Crazy People or something. It's more to let off steam than trying to stab you secretly in the heart. Crazy Level 1 people (i.e. people who probably don't need hospitalization for real) don't really have an equivalent thing to describe for that feeling of, "I feel like I'm going over the edge and life is making me feel fried today." Mental hospital jokes are as close as they can get to describing that. They don't really MEAN it like THAT.
Now, if you really want to get on them for that anyway, you can point out how they all need to be more sensitive without saying, "I personally have been in one," (and I wouldn't out myself at work anyway), but I also think you are kind of getting a little too sensitive about it. "Crazy" has ambiguous terminology in our society, and they probably don't mean it in the way that you are taking it.
For the record, I have a friend who actually spent time in a mental hospital for awhile, and she makes jokes about it. It doesn't have to be oh so personal. Shit happens.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:16 PM on March 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
Now, if you really want to get on them for that anyway, you can point out how they all need to be more sensitive without saying, "I personally have been in one," (and I wouldn't out myself at work anyway), but I also think you are kind of getting a little too sensitive about it. "Crazy" has ambiguous terminology in our society, and they probably don't mean it in the way that you are taking it.
For the record, I have a friend who actually spent time in a mental hospital for awhile, and she makes jokes about it. It doesn't have to be oh so personal. Shit happens.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:16 PM on March 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
"Schooling the bastards" has a very different tone than educating your co-workers. Whether or not you include your personal history in the discussion, it's important to keep your co-workers from feeling ambushed and getting defensive. A sudden and emotionally heated "coming out" may come as a surprise to your co-workers, and potentially make future interactions more strained. For instance, they could worry that they've been personally offending you for an extended period of time and/or wonder why you haven't approached them sooner. Given that caveat, I really like momus_window and jbenben's objective phrasing of the problem. Maybe if you started with something like that, you'd get a sense of who would react well to a more personal discussion of your concerns.
posted by monkeys with typewriters at 1:17 PM on March 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by monkeys with typewriters at 1:17 PM on March 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm usually careful how and when I use words such as crazy, insane, mad because I'm the mother of a child who suffers from schizophrenia. I never call what my son does crazy or call him a lunatic or a mad man, but I feel perfectly free to call Charlie Sheen crazy and Gadhafi a lunatic. I do refrain from describing the actions of people I know with those terms: mental illness is much more frequent than anyone would suspect. (I learned this after I started sharing my family situation. It turns out that just everybody with whom I speak has a family member or friend with a history of mental illness or has had episodes.)
posted by francesca too at 1:29 PM on March 22, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by francesca too at 1:29 PM on March 22, 2011 [6 favorites]
Hit post too soon. Do share the fact that you are bipolar: one of these days the stigma will be gone.
posted by francesca too at 1:32 PM on March 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by francesca too at 1:32 PM on March 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
This sort of reminds me of the contriversy a few years ago where a bunch of parents wanted to get the captain underpants childrens books out of the school library because they used terms like "stupid" in a negitive way.
It doesn't sound like they are mocking people with mental illness. You just don't like how they talk. They might find it offensive that you are micromanaging their speach when there is no direct insult. I can see no way for you confronting them to end well.
Everyone has a few personal sore points. It isn't the responsiblity of everyone else to walk on egg shells untill they find the perfect most unoffesive discripters of their day. I'd say calm it down, if only for your own sake. If you want them to carefully monitor and always worry about saying the wrong thing to you- go for it. Then they are going to worry that maybe you are allergic to peanuts so they shouldn't bring in brittle, maybe you were bit by a dog as a child, so they might need to take down Fido's picture. This is going to be end poorly.
posted by Blisterlips at 1:35 PM on March 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
It doesn't sound like they are mocking people with mental illness. You just don't like how they talk. They might find it offensive that you are micromanaging their speach when there is no direct insult. I can see no way for you confronting them to end well.
Everyone has a few personal sore points. It isn't the responsiblity of everyone else to walk on egg shells untill they find the perfect most unoffesive discripters of their day. I'd say calm it down, if only for your own sake. If you want them to carefully monitor and always worry about saying the wrong thing to you- go for it. Then they are going to worry that maybe you are allergic to peanuts so they shouldn't bring in brittle, maybe you were bit by a dog as a child, so they might need to take down Fido's picture. This is going to be end poorly.
posted by Blisterlips at 1:35 PM on March 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Teach them new vocabulary by example. Jane, you're totally zany; perhaps you should be on Dr. Phil. Bob, I think the word for you today is giddy. Crazy? All the hip kids say emo, right before they start dressing as goths and reading those vampire books. People use the same words because they have forgotten how to use more interesting ones, but it's really fun to use new words.
posted by theora55 at 1:48 PM on March 22, 2011
posted by theora55 at 1:48 PM on March 22, 2011
There is a world of difference between saying "You so crazy" and "They're coming to take me away! Ha ha!" The first type is so divorced from the concept of mental illness that you're almost talking about homonyms. The second type rubs me the wrong way, too.
If they're fond of the second type, well, it depends on your goal. If you want to tell them off, then by all means, school them. Your relationship will probably be toast, but they may think twice before launching into that comedy routine in the future. If you want to change their behavior so that the situation is less uncomfortable for you, try coming it at it from a non-combative position. "Sorry, I know you guys don't mean it this way, but mental illness runs in my family and those sort of jokes are kind of a drag for me."
posted by the jam at 3:12 PM on March 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
If they're fond of the second type, well, it depends on your goal. If you want to tell them off, then by all means, school them. Your relationship will probably be toast, but they may think twice before launching into that comedy routine in the future. If you want to change their behavior so that the situation is less uncomfortable for you, try coming it at it from a non-combative position. "Sorry, I know you guys don't mean it this way, but mental illness runs in my family and those sort of jokes are kind of a drag for me."
posted by the jam at 3:12 PM on March 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
my best friend for 5 years is bipolar, and i'm close to other people with mental illness. i still say 'crazy' alot in casual speech. i apologize and catch myself for it, but i don't mean it out of malice. sometimes it's easiest to just say "I'm not going back to America because things are getting crazy there" or "yeah, i left the pub because the night started feeling a bit crazy"
i don't connect that with my bipolar friend
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 3:31 PM on March 22, 2011
i don't connect that with my bipolar friend
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 3:31 PM on March 22, 2011
I've had that diagnosis myself and even I talk like that sometime.
I understand how you feel but the way I look at it is-choose your battles. If people are lightheartedly joking about "crazy" it's not quite the same as being meanspirited and evil to genuinely ill people. I assume you have seen both sorts and know what I mean.
Also, those of us who have dealt with the bipolar also know that sometimes we do tend to take some stuff way too seriously and at the very least we need to wait and make sure that whatever we are het up about is important enough to be het up about-particularly if we are risking our own position in the social order.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:13 PM on March 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
I understand how you feel but the way I look at it is-choose your battles. If people are lightheartedly joking about "crazy" it's not quite the same as being meanspirited and evil to genuinely ill people. I assume you have seen both sorts and know what I mean.
Also, those of us who have dealt with the bipolar also know that sometimes we do tend to take some stuff way too seriously and at the very least we need to wait and make sure that whatever we are het up about is important enough to be het up about-particularly if we are risking our own position in the social order.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:13 PM on March 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
I am bipolar, and have been to the hospital as an inpatient twice (ten-year anniversary of the first one, woo!).
I think you may be taking what they say a bit too seriously, but this is just my opinion and I do not intend to minimize your feelings. If I had to guess I'd say chances are they go a long time between mentioning "crazy" or the like. So your opportunities are probably quite slim in any case.
As someone who is out at work, I want to suggest that being out is sometimes not as terrible as it seems. I stress to people that it was a hard time I went through, but I got through it, and thanks to my medication, I now feel right as rain. And I'm happy to have this job. I don't know, I *like* to think maybe I'm de-mystifying the crazy a bit for them, and teaching them not to fear us, and that we can be plenty stable. And maybe a wee bit of compassion thrown into the mix? I hope so. I certainly don't go into details about my delusions or anything, more like "yeah I had a really rough time and had to go into the hospital, but I got better and I'm really happy at how well I'm doing these days, been stable for at least X years, yay. My medication works really well". If people judge me for it or talk behind my back, I don't know about it.
I guess I'm not sure you can have the effect you seek, regardless of what you say. People are still going to use "crazy" casually, and if you told them you were once so, they'd probably say they weren't referring to *you* or anything, just people who were somehow different or worse or something. They really don't mean to cause offense to you. They'll redefine the boundaries to themselves to assure themselves they were talking about people further out than you were (people they've never met or seen), on the scale.
Good luck. Maybe just getting this off your chest here has helped a little with your frustration? I hope so. I wish you well.
posted by marble at 7:59 PM on March 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think you may be taking what they say a bit too seriously, but this is just my opinion and I do not intend to minimize your feelings. If I had to guess I'd say chances are they go a long time between mentioning "crazy" or the like. So your opportunities are probably quite slim in any case.
As someone who is out at work, I want to suggest that being out is sometimes not as terrible as it seems. I stress to people that it was a hard time I went through, but I got through it, and thanks to my medication, I now feel right as rain. And I'm happy to have this job. I don't know, I *like* to think maybe I'm de-mystifying the crazy a bit for them, and teaching them not to fear us, and that we can be plenty stable. And maybe a wee bit of compassion thrown into the mix? I hope so. I certainly don't go into details about my delusions or anything, more like "yeah I had a really rough time and had to go into the hospital, but I got better and I'm really happy at how well I'm doing these days, been stable for at least X years, yay. My medication works really well". If people judge me for it or talk behind my back, I don't know about it.
I guess I'm not sure you can have the effect you seek, regardless of what you say. People are still going to use "crazy" casually, and if you told them you were once so, they'd probably say they weren't referring to *you* or anything, just people who were somehow different or worse or something. They really don't mean to cause offense to you. They'll redefine the boundaries to themselves to assure themselves they were talking about people further out than you were (people they've never met or seen), on the scale.
Good luck. Maybe just getting this off your chest here has helped a little with your frustration? I hope so. I wish you well.
posted by marble at 7:59 PM on March 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
I *like* to think maybe I'm de-mystifying the crazy a bit for them, and teaching them not to fear us, and that we can be plenty stable.
I love this attitude. I LOVE IT. But it's hard. And I would save it for friends. Not coworkers.
posted by sweetkid at 9:26 PM on March 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
I love this attitude. I LOVE IT. But it's hard. And I would save it for friends. Not coworkers.
posted by sweetkid at 9:26 PM on March 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
You're being hypersensitive and expecting everyone around you to make a special effort not to do or say anything that you may consider offensive, given your bipolar state. How's that working out for you? Not so good, probably...get over it. Regardless of your mental health issues, the rest of the world isn't going to go out of it's way to accommodate you and the sooner you realize this the better you'll be able to deal with life. Sound like tough love? Good call. Develop a thicker skin and realize that sometimes other people will say or do things that you may not particularly like, but you'll still be OK after hearing or experiencing them.
Good luck to you. Bipolar disorder can be a difficult and unpleasant experience, but so can many other things in life.
posted by motown missile at 2:59 AM on March 23, 2011
Good luck to you. Bipolar disorder can be a difficult and unpleasant experience, but so can many other things in life.
posted by motown missile at 2:59 AM on March 23, 2011
I agree with St. Alia.
I outed myself (type II) to some colleagues, possibly in a moment of deep and dark depression, and found that I got (a) instantaneous support, concern, and all the right noises; and b) long term distrust, particularly from those in the more senior positions.
I also outed myself to my professional association - because I really needed the help - and go nothing but understanding and really valuable assistance, including from the absolute top banana.
The guy I really couldn't (and still can't) forgive is the bastard who, in speaking about a client (and in utter ignorance of my dx) said to me "Forget about that guy. Once a nut, always a nut". That REALLY rankled. He was mean-spirited. I said nothing at the time because he was a direct supervisor. It bothered me for years.
The light-hearted stuff, of which there was plenty, never bothered me in the slightest.
So I guess the question to be weighed is what will piss you off more - dealing immediately with wankers like the mean-spirited and/or stupid who cause real harm, and living with the consequences; or feeling yourself under increasing pressure from innocent (if occasionally slightly misguided) remarks by people who would be genuinely upset if they thought they had caused offence.
Pick your battles. I did, and I think the consequence was probably worth it, even though I'm still feeling the impact.
YMMV.
posted by MadMage at 6:50 AM on April 3, 2011
I outed myself (type II) to some colleagues, possibly in a moment of deep and dark depression, and found that I got (a) instantaneous support, concern, and all the right noises; and b) long term distrust, particularly from those in the more senior positions.
I also outed myself to my professional association - because I really needed the help - and go nothing but understanding and really valuable assistance, including from the absolute top banana.
The guy I really couldn't (and still can't) forgive is the bastard who, in speaking about a client (and in utter ignorance of my dx) said to me "Forget about that guy. Once a nut, always a nut". That REALLY rankled. He was mean-spirited. I said nothing at the time because he was a direct supervisor. It bothered me for years.
The light-hearted stuff, of which there was plenty, never bothered me in the slightest.
So I guess the question to be weighed is what will piss you off more - dealing immediately with wankers like the mean-spirited and/or stupid who cause real harm, and living with the consequences; or feeling yourself under increasing pressure from innocent (if occasionally slightly misguided) remarks by people who would be genuinely upset if they thought they had caused offence.
Pick your battles. I did, and I think the consequence was probably worth it, even though I'm still feeling the impact.
YMMV.
posted by MadMage at 6:50 AM on April 3, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
it doesn't make what they're saying any less offensive or insensitive, but you can't turn everything into a "teachable moment," unfortunately, especially in a work environment.
posted by sweetkid at 12:36 PM on March 22, 2011 [7 favorites]