How can I see if I'm being coerced into belief?
February 6, 2011 7:32 PM Subscribe
What should I do if I suspect I'm being indoctrinated?
Up until recently, I've been a firm atheist, secular person. I've never thought about anything supernatural or spiritual, other than in a purely fictional sense. I also have a diagnosed autistic spectrum disorder (Asperger's) that might influence my thinking in this way.
About a month ago, I was approached by missionaries while having lunch in public. They seemed so bright and cheerful that it felt cruel to rebuff them; so I sat and listened to them explain about their beliefs, and (out of politeness) agreed to let other missionaries visit me at home.
After the first visit, it started becoming harder and harder to deny what they said or tell them to stop visiting. I started reading their books and pamphlets in my spare time and finding interesting phrases and verses to make them happy. The second and third visits were much the same. A room-mate of mine is a returned missionary of theirs, and he offered to let me accompany him to church today.
I went; it seemed very sociable and communal, I met many new, friendly people. I've never even been into a church of any description before. I'm a very isolated and unsociable person, so it was a new and appealing experience to fit in.
Now the truth of their beliefs is becoming harder to dismiss or deny; I find myself torn with indecision about what real truth is anymore, and praying for guidance to a God I've never believed in before. I never wanted to be one of those people that clutters up AskMefi with long hand-wringing personal questions, but there's a part of my mind (getting quieter all the time) that insists I look at things objectively and calmly, and ask for help while I still can. Am I really changing my beliefs honestly? Or am I being indoctrinated?
Up until recently, I've been a firm atheist, secular person. I've never thought about anything supernatural or spiritual, other than in a purely fictional sense. I also have a diagnosed autistic spectrum disorder (Asperger's) that might influence my thinking in this way.
About a month ago, I was approached by missionaries while having lunch in public. They seemed so bright and cheerful that it felt cruel to rebuff them; so I sat and listened to them explain about their beliefs, and (out of politeness) agreed to let other missionaries visit me at home.
After the first visit, it started becoming harder and harder to deny what they said or tell them to stop visiting. I started reading their books and pamphlets in my spare time and finding interesting phrases and verses to make them happy. The second and third visits were much the same. A room-mate of mine is a returned missionary of theirs, and he offered to let me accompany him to church today.
I went; it seemed very sociable and communal, I met many new, friendly people. I've never even been into a church of any description before. I'm a very isolated and unsociable person, so it was a new and appealing experience to fit in.
Now the truth of their beliefs is becoming harder to dismiss or deny; I find myself torn with indecision about what real truth is anymore, and praying for guidance to a God I've never believed in before. I never wanted to be one of those people that clutters up AskMefi with long hand-wringing personal questions, but there's a part of my mind (getting quieter all the time) that insists I look at things objectively and calmly, and ask for help while I still can. Am I really changing my beliefs honestly? Or am I being indoctrinated?
That's a good question, but it's not one we can answer. It's possible you're actually attracted to the community aspect. It's also possible that what they're telling you is really speaking to you. Maybe it would be best to spend some private time studying both what you've always believed and this new stuff - on your own. Tell your visitors and roommate that you need some time for personal study, too. Hopefully they'll understand and respect that. If they don't, then that's not a community I'd want to be part of, regardless of whether or not I agreed with their beliefs.
posted by katillathehun at 7:39 PM on February 6, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by katillathehun at 7:39 PM on February 6, 2011 [5 favorites]
Best answer: There are a million perspectives on religion. The answer to this question totally depends on which one you subscribe to. In my (very biased) opinion, the best thing for you to do now is to sit down and really dig into all of this for yourself. Do you now believe there's a god? What is the basis for that belief? Which aspect of the church are you drawn to most? How many of these aspects are unfulfillable except for through the church? What are the alternatives?
Reading some philosophy might help clarify things, but keep in mind there are philosophers on both sides of the fold. No one is going to tell you what you should be believing in - the most anyone can do is point things out to you that make you think.
posted by devilsbrigade at 7:40 PM on February 6, 2011
Reading some philosophy might help clarify things, but keep in mind there are philosophers on both sides of the fold. No one is going to tell you what you should be believing in - the most anyone can do is point things out to you that make you think.
posted by devilsbrigade at 7:40 PM on February 6, 2011
Should amend that to, no one worth listening to is going to tell you what you should be believing in.
posted by devilsbrigade at 7:41 PM on February 6, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by devilsbrigade at 7:41 PM on February 6, 2011 [4 favorites]
Yeah, assuming it's a regular Church and not a cult, they're not going to brainwash you. If they're not asking for money or kidnapping you to some "retreat" against your will, just go with what feels true to you at the time, and remember you're free to change your mind whenever you like.
I am also an atheist but have Christian friends. They don't try to convert me but I have been invited to church and considered going, for the simple reason I know it is a very liberal church and they are probably a group of people I would like, even if I don't share their beliefs. Part of the appeal of any faith is that it is also a social activity and support system, so you *may* want to ask yourself if you're just accepting the religion because you like the people. But there's nothing wrong with trying it out once, even if only to meet new folks.
posted by drjimmy11 at 7:41 PM on February 6, 2011
I am also an atheist but have Christian friends. They don't try to convert me but I have been invited to church and considered going, for the simple reason I know it is a very liberal church and they are probably a group of people I would like, even if I don't share their beliefs. Part of the appeal of any faith is that it is also a social activity and support system, so you *may* want to ask yourself if you're just accepting the religion because you like the people. But there's nothing wrong with trying it out once, even if only to meet new folks.
posted by drjimmy11 at 7:41 PM on February 6, 2011
There are certainly plenty of former members of the LDS faith out there-- "ex-Mormon" on Google will show you that-- so why not read their stories and investigate how they were brought into the faith and what eventually led them to leave the church? Read up on criticism of the church. Examine your behaviors, examine your sense of social propriety, and see how that feeds into the conditions that cause you to believe.
Belief follows behavior, for the most part. If you are honestly changing your behavior to align with the expectations of the Mormon church, then, hey, your conversion may be sincere. If you're doing it because people are being nice to you and you don't want to let them down, well, look into techniques of conversion like "lovebombing" and be wary.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 7:43 PM on February 6, 2011 [13 favorites]
Belief follows behavior, for the most part. If you are honestly changing your behavior to align with the expectations of the Mormon church, then, hey, your conversion may be sincere. If you're doing it because people are being nice to you and you don't want to let them down, well, look into techniques of conversion like "lovebombing" and be wary.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 7:43 PM on February 6, 2011 [13 favorites]
'Indoctrinated' and 'coerced' both have a very strong negative connotation. The people who are trying to convince you to adopt a new religion might prefer 'ministering' or 'evangelizing' or, yeah, performing mission work. As with a lot of things, I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle, but which one of those characterizations seems more accurate?
posted by box at 7:43 PM on February 6, 2011
posted by box at 7:43 PM on February 6, 2011
To clarify: don't pretend to be a believer just to meet new friends. But I don't see any harm in telling them you'd like to come to church once just to check it out.
posted by drjimmy11 at 7:43 PM on February 6, 2011
posted by drjimmy11 at 7:43 PM on February 6, 2011
Lots of people attend church for the social aspect (my parents, for one) - they're not particularly religious, but understand the sect's outlook on things, and appreciate the companionship and community the church offers.
As sects go, the Mormons are a little more cult-like than the Episcopalians or Methodists, a little less cult-like than Evangelical protestants. Yes, they're indoctrinating you, but it's modern missionary stuff - their goal is to get you to the church's pot-luck dinner, not to leave you broke on a commune somewhere.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:47 PM on February 6, 2011
As sects go, the Mormons are a little more cult-like than the Episcopalians or Methodists, a little less cult-like than Evangelical protestants. Yes, they're indoctrinating you, but it's modern missionary stuff - their goal is to get you to the church's pot-luck dinner, not to leave you broke on a commune somewhere.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:47 PM on February 6, 2011
Best answer: If you're being indoctrinated, they won't let you leave. Take a step back (or a few steps), and "break up with them" for a couple of months. This will be harder because of your roommate's connections, but if they truly believe that their faith system can stand on its own, then they should be able to honor your request for total silence on the subject. Let them know, "You've given me the information and the resources, and a lot to think about. I'd like the space to do so at my own speed, on my own." No more missionary visits. No more church attendance, and your roommate would need to go back to non-faith-related topics of conversation. For as long as you specify (ideally this would be open-ended, "until I get back in touch with you").
If they can't do this, or if they use the silent period to keep sending you literature and friendly pop-by's, then they have (or are attempting to have) a grip on you. Even if it's only the 'benign' grip of Evangelical Christianity's attentions which they truly believe comes from fear for the safety of your soul, that soul is still yours, and not theirs, to decide what to do with. Assuming you get the time off, use it to explore alternatives and shore up what you already believe. There are lots of skeptical writings aimed at most of the major faiths - look them up and see if their arguments are equally appealing.
A belief system can be a very useful thing, so don't turn your back on it wholesale if you do think you are gaining something from it for its own sake. There are many intelligent, rational, highly-educated people who believe in a deity or higher power, and feel their lives are better for it. But as you are aware, there are also plenty of religions (not to mention religious cults) who are looking for adherents to serve their own means. An open mind is the best thing you can bring to the table.
posted by Mchelly at 7:49 PM on February 6, 2011 [25 favorites]
If they can't do this, or if they use the silent period to keep sending you literature and friendly pop-by's, then they have (or are attempting to have) a grip on you. Even if it's only the 'benign' grip of Evangelical Christianity's attentions which they truly believe comes from fear for the safety of your soul, that soul is still yours, and not theirs, to decide what to do with. Assuming you get the time off, use it to explore alternatives and shore up what you already believe. There are lots of skeptical writings aimed at most of the major faiths - look them up and see if their arguments are equally appealing.
A belief system can be a very useful thing, so don't turn your back on it wholesale if you do think you are gaining something from it for its own sake. There are many intelligent, rational, highly-educated people who believe in a deity or higher power, and feel their lives are better for it. But as you are aware, there are also plenty of religions (not to mention religious cults) who are looking for adherents to serve their own means. An open mind is the best thing you can bring to the table.
posted by Mchelly at 7:49 PM on February 6, 2011 [25 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for all the responses- I apologise to anyone like box who may have been offended by my question's vocabulary.
Given thought, (it's been emphasised to me by missionaries, for instance, that it is up to myself to decide the truth or falsity of the Church), 'indoctrination' does not exactly fit the situation.
posted by malusmoriendumest at 7:58 PM on February 6, 2011
Given thought, (it's been emphasised to me by missionaries, for instance, that it is up to myself to decide the truth or falsity of the Church), 'indoctrination' does not exactly fit the situation.
posted by malusmoriendumest at 7:58 PM on February 6, 2011
There's something amazing about the sense of belonging that the LDS church (or any church, really) can inspire.
But before you let the mishies schedule your baptism, maybe do a little more independent research into the history of the church, what the members of the church believe, and what the church itself does socially and politically.
posted by elsietheeel at 8:00 PM on February 6, 2011
But before you let the mishies schedule your baptism, maybe do a little more independent research into the history of the church, what the members of the church believe, and what the church itself does socially and politically.
posted by elsietheeel at 8:00 PM on February 6, 2011
Go to the library and get some books on world religions. Read up on different ones. Try an encyclopedia.
I've seen a lot of cults prey on people who are vulnerable, isolated, or just confused. I'm not saying these people are necessarily like this, but be cautious.
posted by mareli at 8:06 PM on February 6, 2011
I've seen a lot of cults prey on people who are vulnerable, isolated, or just confused. I'm not saying these people are necessarily like this, but be cautious.
posted by mareli at 8:06 PM on February 6, 2011
You're dealing with a lot of new social and emotional information right now, which your personality type/place on the autism spectrum might make slower or more difficult to incorporate into yourself.
You say in your question that you were socially isolated before this happened. Now you are inundated with people who all believe the same thing. An echo chamber like this does have the power to overwhelm people and change their personalities and beliefs. Something you said also worried me:
there's a part of my mind (getting quieter all the time) that insists I look at things objectively and calmly
That sets off alarms. It sounds like you feel your original personality becoming fainter in the face of new beliefs. That is a warning sign of brainwashing. Please note that people don't have to intend to be brainwashing/indoctrinating you for it to happen.
posted by overeducated_alligator at 8:06 PM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
You say in your question that you were socially isolated before this happened. Now you are inundated with people who all believe the same thing. An echo chamber like this does have the power to overwhelm people and change their personalities and beliefs. Something you said also worried me:
there's a part of my mind (getting quieter all the time) that insists I look at things objectively and calmly
That sets off alarms. It sounds like you feel your original personality becoming fainter in the face of new beliefs. That is a warning sign of brainwashing. Please note that people don't have to intend to be brainwashing/indoctrinating you for it to happen.
posted by overeducated_alligator at 8:06 PM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: (I should say that I'm not trying to criticize here -- I have friends who are very active in the LDS church and they are very happy, so I gather that the church is a positive thing for them. They are critical of various things the church holds, and they're never afraid of critically examining some claim or rule -- so it's possible to quite devout while still saying "no, I don't believe that" when they don't believe something.)
If you're talking about LDS specifically, there is a famous South Park episode you might want to watch, in which a bunch of LDS doctrines are described and ridiculed. But the episode points out the aspect you are finding as well: for a lot of people the LDS life is very happy, involves being good to your family and kind to others etc -- which are values that are very attractive no matter what your views on the supernatural.
Remember that you can have good moral values, you can "do the right thing", even without belief in the supernatural.
Also remember that if anyone tries to make you cut off ties to your "former" life (friends, family) and make you think of their church as your only friends/support network, you should run. That is a huge red flag. I don't have the sense that your new friends are doing this, but if they did, that would be a sure sign to get out right away.
But the main thing to recognize is: of course they are trying to make you believe, or make their beliefs attractive to you. They think it's important for your soul's salvation. They're also in a social setting (their mission) where it's their job to talk to people and bring them into the church. So it's understandable why they want you to believe.
But the fact that THEY think it's important for you to believe, or that your soul is on the line, doesn't mean YOU should believe it.
You need to separate these two issues in your mind:
1. trying to please your new friends and take their point of view seriously,
vs.
2. trying to figure out what you think is true, based on asking "what kind of evidence would I need to see, to convince me of these claims?" (etc) and on looking inside yourself to see if you really believe these claims or if you're kind of going along for the sake of being a good sport or some other reason.
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:08 PM on February 6, 2011 [5 favorites]
If you're talking about LDS specifically, there is a famous South Park episode you might want to watch, in which a bunch of LDS doctrines are described and ridiculed. But the episode points out the aspect you are finding as well: for a lot of people the LDS life is very happy, involves being good to your family and kind to others etc -- which are values that are very attractive no matter what your views on the supernatural.
Remember that you can have good moral values, you can "do the right thing", even without belief in the supernatural.
Also remember that if anyone tries to make you cut off ties to your "former" life (friends, family) and make you think of their church as your only friends/support network, you should run. That is a huge red flag. I don't have the sense that your new friends are doing this, but if they did, that would be a sure sign to get out right away.
But the main thing to recognize is: of course they are trying to make you believe, or make their beliefs attractive to you. They think it's important for your soul's salvation. They're also in a social setting (their mission) where it's their job to talk to people and bring them into the church. So it's understandable why they want you to believe.
But the fact that THEY think it's important for you to believe, or that your soul is on the line, doesn't mean YOU should believe it.
You need to separate these two issues in your mind:
1. trying to please your new friends and take their point of view seriously,
vs.
2. trying to figure out what you think is true, based on asking "what kind of evidence would I need to see, to convince me of these claims?" (etc) and on looking inside yourself to see if you really believe these claims or if you're kind of going along for the sake of being a good sport or some other reason.
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:08 PM on February 6, 2011 [5 favorites]
It sounds like you're trying to find the line between being intrigued by a community of people who share an interesting belief (which you, yourself, do not share) and discovering religious belief for yourself.
To me (as someone who isn't diagnosed with Aspberger's and who grew up in a non-dogmatic religious tradition), it's pretty easy to find that line. For instance, traveling through India, I visited the Golden Temple in Amritsar, which is the spiritual home of the Sikh religion. I find Sikhism to be really fascinating as a religion, and I personally agree with quite a few of its major tenets. Visiting there, seeing all the people coming together to worship god (in a way that seemed to me as an outside observer to be beautiful and natural and non-threatening), feeling like part of something bigger, having tremendous respect for everything I saw around me - it all felt very spiritual. But at the end of the day, I'm not Sikh and am not particularly drawn to becoming Sikh*.
Because it's just not what I believe in. It's not mine. It's hard to articulate the difference, but it's just... not for me. Weirdly enough, this is exactly how I feel attending Christian church services with my family, even though I grew up Episcopalian. It's beautiful, and the community is amazing, and the minister is inspirational, and they do great things. And I respect my family's commitment to all of it. But. It's just not right for me somehow.
Can you look within yourself and get at that line? See whether you really believe this stuff, or it's just an interesting metaphysical world to drop in on? Or an inviting community, a beautiful setting, a relaxing service? Strip away the external stuff and ask yourself, "do I believe in this? Is this true, for me?"
*This may be easier in this particular example because Sikhism is not a proselytizing faith.
posted by Sara C. at 8:10 PM on February 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
To me (as someone who isn't diagnosed with Aspberger's and who grew up in a non-dogmatic religious tradition), it's pretty easy to find that line. For instance, traveling through India, I visited the Golden Temple in Amritsar, which is the spiritual home of the Sikh religion. I find Sikhism to be really fascinating as a religion, and I personally agree with quite a few of its major tenets. Visiting there, seeing all the people coming together to worship god (in a way that seemed to me as an outside observer to be beautiful and natural and non-threatening), feeling like part of something bigger, having tremendous respect for everything I saw around me - it all felt very spiritual. But at the end of the day, I'm not Sikh and am not particularly drawn to becoming Sikh*.
Because it's just not what I believe in. It's not mine. It's hard to articulate the difference, but it's just... not for me. Weirdly enough, this is exactly how I feel attending Christian church services with my family, even though I grew up Episcopalian. It's beautiful, and the community is amazing, and the minister is inspirational, and they do great things. And I respect my family's commitment to all of it. But. It's just not right for me somehow.
Can you look within yourself and get at that line? See whether you really believe this stuff, or it's just an interesting metaphysical world to drop in on? Or an inviting community, a beautiful setting, a relaxing service? Strip away the external stuff and ask yourself, "do I believe in this? Is this true, for me?"
*This may be easier in this particular example because Sikhism is not a proselytizing faith.
posted by Sara C. at 8:10 PM on February 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
Missionaries are for all intents and purposes salespeople. They are trained to make the sale and not to accept no once you are a qualified prospect, which you are. They may use positives rather than negatives to make the sale but the negatives (damnation etc.) are there. Now as other people have said, if you want what they are selling then that's great, but if you're not sure, thats where the problem with indoctrination lies. One question I might ask is, would I have a relationship with these people if they weren't trying to sell something? if the answer is no, the your choice should be clear.
Salespeople lead you to the water and try to make you drink. friends don't.
posted by Xurando at 8:15 PM on February 6, 2011 [7 favorites]
Salespeople lead you to the water and try to make you drink. friends don't.
posted by Xurando at 8:15 PM on February 6, 2011 [7 favorites]
“I apologise to anyone like box who may have been offended by my question's vocabulary.”
posted by malusmoriendumest at 1:58 PM on February 7
Don’t apologise. In fact, I think it’s telling that rather than using words like the ones box has suggested you used the word “indoctrinated.” As others have said in this thread (in reference to you deciding what to do), “go with what you feel.” Well, you feel like you might be being indoctrinated. And that’s a worry, especially if you feel that it, in conjunction with your aspergers might be leading you to conclude things you might not otherwise believe.
So to directly answer your question of “what to do if you think you’re being indoctrinated”, I suggest you ask your friends (not your roommate) and especially your family if they think this is the case. They know you better than we internet nerds do, and if they think that this is all very out of character for you and might be worried by the influence of these religious types, then you should seek their help to stop you from being indoctrinated further.
There’s nothing wrong with finding faith and becoming a religious person. But becoming indoctrinated? And people doing so by possibly taking advantage of your Aspergers? So very not cool.
posted by Effigy2000 at 8:19 PM on February 6, 2011
posted by malusmoriendumest at 1:58 PM on February 7
Don’t apologise. In fact, I think it’s telling that rather than using words like the ones box has suggested you used the word “indoctrinated.” As others have said in this thread (in reference to you deciding what to do), “go with what you feel.” Well, you feel like you might be being indoctrinated. And that’s a worry, especially if you feel that it, in conjunction with your aspergers might be leading you to conclude things you might not otherwise believe.
So to directly answer your question of “what to do if you think you’re being indoctrinated”, I suggest you ask your friends (not your roommate) and especially your family if they think this is the case. They know you better than we internet nerds do, and if they think that this is all very out of character for you and might be worried by the influence of these religious types, then you should seek their help to stop you from being indoctrinated further.
There’s nothing wrong with finding faith and becoming a religious person. But becoming indoctrinated? And people doing so by possibly taking advantage of your Aspergers? So very not cool.
posted by Effigy2000 at 8:19 PM on February 6, 2011
Response by poster: Gaining all of these additional views has definitely helped put things in perspective for me- and I feel a lot happier and less worried than I was before. I'll do some more research and give the whole matter some more thought. My heartfelt thanks.
posted by malusmoriendumest at 8:25 PM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by malusmoriendumest at 8:25 PM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Maybe you would feel more comfortable in your decision making if you also make an effort to find more/other social activities and friends of no particular religion. (You describe yourself as unsociable, but it's also pretty clear that you do enjoy/need social contact.)
posted by anaelith at 8:27 PM on February 6, 2011
posted by anaelith at 8:27 PM on February 6, 2011
The social isolation that often goes with Asperger's is difficult, I get that.
Consider that you would meet "new, friendly people" at any church you decided to visit.
I am an atheist but want to share with you what the experience of joining a new church was like for a couple I know. They were each raised in different faiths and decided to become Episcopalians.
When they visited the church the people they met were friendly and welcoming, they gave them a schedule of events and when services were held and the Pastor gave them her number so they could follow-up.
There was no aggressive proselytizing, no requests to drop by their house, et cetera. I would be wary of any religious group that is so forward in recruiting new members.
posted by mlis at 8:28 PM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
Consider that you would meet "new, friendly people" at any church you decided to visit.
I am an atheist but want to share with you what the experience of joining a new church was like for a couple I know. They were each raised in different faiths and decided to become Episcopalians.
When they visited the church the people they met were friendly and welcoming, they gave them a schedule of events and when services were held and the Pastor gave them her number so they could follow-up.
There was no aggressive proselytizing, no requests to drop by their house, et cetera. I would be wary of any religious group that is so forward in recruiting new members.
posted by mlis at 8:28 PM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
For what it's worth, I think the indoctrination question, and especially the framework of "brainwashing", to be sort of a red herring in your situation, OP.
It shouldn't matter what your friends and other people you meet in an LDS setting are doing. What matters is what you actually believe. Sure, obviously if your friends are pressuring you to join an organization you disagree with, or using manipulative psychological tactics to trick you into committing to something, that's wrong and those people aren't your friends.
But lots of people become Mormon without being tricked into it. Personally, I find a lot of the LDS beliefs to be wrongheaded, not to mention patently false in the face of history that anybody can look up on Wikipedia. But just because I think they're factually wrong and don't like a lot of what they believe in doesn't mean I think they're evil people and their converts are dupes.
If you agree with Mormonism and want to join their community, good for you. If you don't, you should not allow yourself to be manipulated into committing to something you aren't interested in (and I'd say the same for any life choice, from choosing a career to joining a gym). That's all you should really be concerned with at this point - accusations of brainwashing are just inflammatory nonsense that is confusing the real issue.
posted by Sara C. at 8:33 PM on February 6, 2011
It shouldn't matter what your friends and other people you meet in an LDS setting are doing. What matters is what you actually believe. Sure, obviously if your friends are pressuring you to join an organization you disagree with, or using manipulative psychological tactics to trick you into committing to something, that's wrong and those people aren't your friends.
But lots of people become Mormon without being tricked into it. Personally, I find a lot of the LDS beliefs to be wrongheaded, not to mention patently false in the face of history that anybody can look up on Wikipedia. But just because I think they're factually wrong and don't like a lot of what they believe in doesn't mean I think they're evil people and their converts are dupes.
If you agree with Mormonism and want to join their community, good for you. If you don't, you should not allow yourself to be manipulated into committing to something you aren't interested in (and I'd say the same for any life choice, from choosing a career to joining a gym). That's all you should really be concerned with at this point - accusations of brainwashing are just inflammatory nonsense that is confusing the real issue.
posted by Sara C. at 8:33 PM on February 6, 2011
I suppose one way of looking at the issue goes like this: imagine various pamphlets from this religion were slid under your door, with no human contact. You read and evaluate them. What do you think? A careful and reasonable parsing of the texts into some kind of worldview, which you would examine for self-consistency, the ability to have assertions within it falsified, and so forth. You go to the library and do some research. At the end of it, you decide to send in (or not) that envelope to join that religion. That would be an honest way of changing your beliefs.
Now imagine sound bites from that system handed to you by cheerful, nice people whose feelings you would rather not hurt by contradicting them. Oh, and every so often they hit you with a mist of inhalable oxytocin, like wireheading in science-fiction. Would you be changing your worldview in a forthright fashion then?
The latter is what they are doing with all of the warm fuzzy community stuff. By presenting you with in-person Experiences, they are looking to bypass all of the evaluation and get you right into the acceptance. It's a technique as old as the hills and is also used to sell gym memberships and condos. There's a fairly hilarious Strangers with Candy episode which rather deftly encapsulates the "community sell" experience.
Why them? Why this particular religion? If you put their representatives in a room full of the representatives of the religions from the rest of the world, would they necessarily come out on top, having discovered the truth?
Nah, they're just the ones who reached out to you like this first.
posted by adipocere at 8:43 PM on February 6, 2011 [5 favorites]
Now imagine sound bites from that system handed to you by cheerful, nice people whose feelings you would rather not hurt by contradicting them. Oh, and every so often they hit you with a mist of inhalable oxytocin, like wireheading in science-fiction. Would you be changing your worldview in a forthright fashion then?
The latter is what they are doing with all of the warm fuzzy community stuff. By presenting you with in-person Experiences, they are looking to bypass all of the evaluation and get you right into the acceptance. It's a technique as old as the hills and is also used to sell gym memberships and condos. There's a fairly hilarious Strangers with Candy episode which rather deftly encapsulates the "community sell" experience.
Why them? Why this particular religion? If you put their representatives in a room full of the representatives of the religions from the rest of the world, would they necessarily come out on top, having discovered the truth?
Nah, they're just the ones who reached out to you like this first.
posted by adipocere at 8:43 PM on February 6, 2011 [5 favorites]
I once worked support for a reporter/producer who went undercover into a popular religious group known to recruit among a certain subset of society (being purposefully vague here in describing the group.) The story was about investigating this group as a cult. There definitely was a financial component to worship/membership, and I think that was the initial basis for investigating the group...
Anyhoo. Your story about how you met these folks reminded me a lot of my work on that story. I remember the producer had to be debriefed frequently by a special therapist and felt truly bad towards the end of the story. He/she got pretty fucked up dealing with the indoctrination tactics while trying to keep a grip on reality.
The people recruiting the producer were truly nice and well-meaning. And the religious group was proved to be a scam or cult, however you want to put that.
My point is that both things may be true in your case -- these people may be genuinely nice and you may be undergoing a form of indoctrination.
FWIW, pretty much every religious group I've ever interacted with over the years with a specific interest in recruiting new members was super welcoming and friendly towards me. It's part of what they do.
- Is there a financial component to your participation with these folks?
- Are you expected at some point in the future to bring in new members?
- Did your roommate volunteer you as part of his "quota"?
These are the questions I might want answered as I considered an opportunity like the one you are being presented with.
If there is any kind of disturbing guilt or deep emotional turmoil for you should you attempt to step away for some time to think this through... take that as a warning this might not be what you think it is.
Disclaimer - I am familiar with a variety of different faiths and was brought up in a religiously diverse household and neighborhood. I am spiritual but not religious.
posted by jbenben at 9:04 PM on February 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
Anyhoo. Your story about how you met these folks reminded me a lot of my work on that story. I remember the producer had to be debriefed frequently by a special therapist and felt truly bad towards the end of the story. He/she got pretty fucked up dealing with the indoctrination tactics while trying to keep a grip on reality.
The people recruiting the producer were truly nice and well-meaning. And the religious group was proved to be a scam or cult, however you want to put that.
My point is that both things may be true in your case -- these people may be genuinely nice and you may be undergoing a form of indoctrination.
FWIW, pretty much every religious group I've ever interacted with over the years with a specific interest in recruiting new members was super welcoming and friendly towards me. It's part of what they do.
- Is there a financial component to your participation with these folks?
- Are you expected at some point in the future to bring in new members?
- Did your roommate volunteer you as part of his "quota"?
These are the questions I might want answered as I considered an opportunity like the one you are being presented with.
If there is any kind of disturbing guilt or deep emotional turmoil for you should you attempt to step away for some time to think this through... take that as a warning this might not be what you think it is.
Disclaimer - I am familiar with a variety of different faiths and was brought up in a religiously diverse household and neighborhood. I am spiritual but not religious.
posted by jbenben at 9:04 PM on February 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm an active Mormon, so caveat brainwash-tor, etc. But in general it seems like you are getting some good advice regarding making sure this is right for you.
Anxiety about about what this all means to your life is pretty normal and will, to some degree, always be there, if you do end up joining the LDS church. Heck, every day I work with people who think that behind my boring, normal face lurks a poor, delusional, disingenuous soul. They bring it up from time to time and we joke around, but the bottom line is, I made a decision a long time ago that I am happy to defend every day, even if it makes me ponder who my real friends are.
Having been a missionary myself, having talked to thousands of people (Japanese people in my case) about this stuff, I'd say: Be cool, man. If you feel pressure, slow down a bit. Your local LDS congregation would probably love to get to know you better, but they're just as likely to want you to really be sure you want to be there.
Personally: Best decision I ever made. But for you, you have to decide what you're going to do. Either way there are people in and outside of the church who just want you to be happy.
posted by circular at 9:13 PM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
Anxiety about about what this all means to your life is pretty normal and will, to some degree, always be there, if you do end up joining the LDS church. Heck, every day I work with people who think that behind my boring, normal face lurks a poor, delusional, disingenuous soul. They bring it up from time to time and we joke around, but the bottom line is, I made a decision a long time ago that I am happy to defend every day, even if it makes me ponder who my real friends are.
Having been a missionary myself, having talked to thousands of people (Japanese people in my case) about this stuff, I'd say: Be cool, man. If you feel pressure, slow down a bit. Your local LDS congregation would probably love to get to know you better, but they're just as likely to want you to really be sure you want to be there.
Personally: Best decision I ever made. But for you, you have to decide what you're going to do. Either way there are people in and outside of the church who just want you to be happy.
posted by circular at 9:13 PM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
It seems to me like your concerns about coercion stem from the fact that these people are putting you in a position where you can't dismiss them without violating your personal principles when it comes to politeness, and you're afraid that they're aware of these principles and are exploiting them in order to draw you in.
There's also the enticement of the social aspect, too, and it sounds like you fear that this is clouding your judgement. But it's the first thing I think that has you concerned more.
I'd look at this issue as being about your boundaries, and not about the missionaries' being coercive. You could have said no at several points, so a big part of what is contributing to your lack of clarity here occurred on your end. I think what you're looking for here, really, is advice on how to say no to these people.
I don't think what they're doing rises to the level of brainwashing. It's a little unsavory, but some people might call it good salesmanship. The thing is, though, if you had good refusal skills when they first approached you, you would have either used them to politely (but firmly) dismiss them, or you would have made a choice to hear them out. It sounds to me like you wound up indulging them because you didn't know how to dismiss them, and that if you'd had a magic button that could make these missionaries stop contacting you without harboring any ill-will towards you, you'd have pressed it a few times by now.
I don't this honest changing of beliefs you want is going to happen if you feel you're not being true to yourself, and that's exactly what's happening if you're saying yes when you really want to say no.
The real test would be to see how well they accept your boundaries if you try to set them. I'd ask for some space to think things over, and gauge their reaction, as katillathehun suggested. Bad signs to me would be if they persist with "why?" questions after you tell them that you'd simply like some time to think things over, if they press you for follow up, or if they imply that you're doing something evil. It would be a good sign to me if they tell you they really enjoyed meeting you, that they'll miss you, and that they hope to see you again.
Best of luck.
posted by alphanerd at 9:17 PM on February 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
There's also the enticement of the social aspect, too, and it sounds like you fear that this is clouding your judgement. But it's the first thing I think that has you concerned more.
I'd look at this issue as being about your boundaries, and not about the missionaries' being coercive. You could have said no at several points, so a big part of what is contributing to your lack of clarity here occurred on your end. I think what you're looking for here, really, is advice on how to say no to these people.
I don't think what they're doing rises to the level of brainwashing. It's a little unsavory, but some people might call it good salesmanship. The thing is, though, if you had good refusal skills when they first approached you, you would have either used them to politely (but firmly) dismiss them, or you would have made a choice to hear them out. It sounds to me like you wound up indulging them because you didn't know how to dismiss them, and that if you'd had a magic button that could make these missionaries stop contacting you without harboring any ill-will towards you, you'd have pressed it a few times by now.
I don't this honest changing of beliefs you want is going to happen if you feel you're not being true to yourself, and that's exactly what's happening if you're saying yes when you really want to say no.
The real test would be to see how well they accept your boundaries if you try to set them. I'd ask for some space to think things over, and gauge their reaction, as katillathehun suggested. Bad signs to me would be if they persist with "why?" questions after you tell them that you'd simply like some time to think things over, if they press you for follow up, or if they imply that you're doing something evil. It would be a good sign to me if they tell you they really enjoyed meeting you, that they'll miss you, and that they hope to see you again.
Best of luck.
posted by alphanerd at 9:17 PM on February 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
Simple test: if these people care about you, they will continue to care about you even if you are not a believer. If you find yourself internally fearing the loss of connection with the group should you not adopt their beliefs, take it as a warning sign.
That doesn't necessarily mean that they are doing something malicious or deliberately deceptive, but it's a very powerful human tendency to change and shift to fit in with those who we feel connected to.
posted by verb at 9:35 PM on February 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
That doesn't necessarily mean that they are doing something malicious or deliberately deceptive, but it's a very powerful human tendency to change and shift to fit in with those who we feel connected to.
posted by verb at 9:35 PM on February 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
Keep in mind the reason religions of the world maintain believers is because they cater to the spiritual needs of those believers.
posted by TravellingDen at 9:35 PM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by TravellingDen at 9:35 PM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
All religions are characterized by an internally-consistent narrative, without which there is nothing upon which to hang their belief. This consistency can appear to be truth to those who are looking for it, and proselytizers are well-trained in emphasizing this consistency and, in fact, is the mechanism by which the indoctri--er, conversion happens. However, such internal consistency is weak against outside information.
To answer your question, ask them what happens if they're wrong. Their response to this question should tell you all you need to know.
posted by rhizome at 9:40 PM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
To answer your question, ask them what happens if they're wrong. Their response to this question should tell you all you need to know.
posted by rhizome at 9:40 PM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Here's a quick experiment for you.
Next weekend, attend another chapter of the church. Go to the same church, only the one located in the next town over.
See how you feel. Isolate the friends and missionaries out of the equation and see if you still hear the call.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:41 PM on February 6, 2011 [4 favorites]
Next weekend, attend another chapter of the church. Go to the same church, only the one located in the next town over.
See how you feel. Isolate the friends and missionaries out of the equation and see if you still hear the call.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:41 PM on February 6, 2011 [4 favorites]
I have often considered the role of "mind blindness" in resisting an anthropomorphic view of the universe, or specifically an anthropomorphic God.
When you look around yourself and see lots of the same kinds of things, or one big thing, it can be a stretch to imagine something like a 'person' behind and connected to those things. (I think particularly if you are a strongly visual thinker, and correspondingly skeptical of linguistic abstraction.)
Neurotypical people, who habitually and naturally ascribe mental states to certain things (other people things), are, so to speak, 'better-equipped' for a religious life centered around an anthropomorphic God. It is not such a stretch from 'behind this thing lies a person' to 'behind all things lies a person'.
Keep in mind the neurodiversity in play here. Their prejudices are just as relevant here as yours.
My other advice is this: good arguments stand on their own two feet.
True things are true no matter who says them. How they have treated you has little or no bearing on the factual truth of what they are telling you. Be careful to judge what they say to you based on its own merit, and not based on your feelings for who is saying it.
posted by edguardo at 9:43 PM on February 6, 2011
When you look around yourself and see lots of the same kinds of things, or one big thing, it can be a stretch to imagine something like a 'person' behind and connected to those things. (I think particularly if you are a strongly visual thinker, and correspondingly skeptical of linguistic abstraction.)
Neurotypical people, who habitually and naturally ascribe mental states to certain things (other people things), are, so to speak, 'better-equipped' for a religious life centered around an anthropomorphic God. It is not such a stretch from 'behind this thing lies a person' to 'behind all things lies a person'.
Keep in mind the neurodiversity in play here. Their prejudices are just as relevant here as yours.
My other advice is this: good arguments stand on their own two feet.
True things are true no matter who says them. How they have treated you has little or no bearing on the factual truth of what they are telling you. Be careful to judge what they say to you based on its own merit, and not based on your feelings for who is saying it.
posted by edguardo at 9:43 PM on February 6, 2011
If you want a more objective reference point to measure the level of undue influence you may be under, here's cult researcher & exit counselor Steve Hassan's BITE model, Robert J Lifton's Eight Points of Thought Reform & the ABCDEF rating chart. See how what you're experiencing measures up without getting tangled in an argument over specific doctrines.
posted by scalefree at 10:44 PM on February 6, 2011
posted by scalefree at 10:44 PM on February 6, 2011
One of the first things that was explained to me when I was diagnosed as an Aspie is that Aspies can be particularly vulnerable to cults.
The fact that you are even asking the question "Am I really changing my beliefs honestly? Or am I being indoctrinated?" makes me think you should step away from these people. Remember, even if the religious group in general is not a cult, small groups of people can form little cults of their own.
I say this as a religious person who thinks it would be great if you found your faith - but not like this! Try some other churches.
posted by tel3path at 12:23 AM on February 7, 2011 [3 favorites]
The fact that you are even asking the question "Am I really changing my beliefs honestly? Or am I being indoctrinated?" makes me think you should step away from these people. Remember, even if the religious group in general is not a cult, small groups of people can form little cults of their own.
I say this as a religious person who thinks it would be great if you found your faith - but not like this! Try some other churches.
posted by tel3path at 12:23 AM on February 7, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm just throwing out there that you should also think about the faith in totality - what is your stand on homosexuality for example? Do you think it's evil etc? A lot of religions are happy to play up the touchy feely stuff in the early stages, but tend to glide over the more problematic xenphobia that can underpin a portion of their learnings.
I guess what I'm saying is mormons aren't the only fish in the sea, and christianity isn't the only sea. If you're feeling a burgeoning spirituality don't forget to check what else is out there that may resonate with you. I say all this as a dyed in the wool atheist.
posted by smoke at 1:37 AM on February 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
I guess what I'm saying is mormons aren't the only fish in the sea, and christianity isn't the only sea. If you're feeling a burgeoning spirituality don't forget to check what else is out there that may resonate with you. I say all this as a dyed in the wool atheist.
posted by smoke at 1:37 AM on February 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
Now the truth of their beliefs is becoming harder to dismiss or deny; I find myself torn with indecision about what real truth is anymore
Religious truth--that indefinable something that gives meaning, a sense of community, etc.--is not the same thing as factual truth about a religious faith and its history.
As a potential proselyte to a religious faith, those church-produced books and pamphlets are providing *one* perspective on it. They do not include historical and contemporary controversies. For that, you should turn to the academic field of Mormon studies. These books may be helpful:
Mormonism: A Very Short Introduction by Richard Bushman (himself a Latter-day Saint historian)
Mormonism: The Story of a New Religious Tradition by Jan Shipps (non-Mormon historian)
No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith by Fawn Brodie (classic biography, originally published in 1945, by a Latter-day Saint historian who was excommunicated for her book).
Website: mormonthink.com
As noted in posts above: investigate for yourself Latter-day Saint beliefs and teachings on homosexuality. You may also want to explore questions about the role of women in the church and their relationship to the Priesthood, history of blacks in the church, tithing requirements for church membership, and Temple work and theology. You might also want to independently verify Mormon claims for first-century North American civilizations descended from the (supposedly) ten lost tribes: the LDS perspective preserves a 19th-century perspective that has been superseded by modern archaeology and biblical studies.
posted by apartment dweller at 7:03 AM on February 7, 2011 [3 favorites]
Religious truth--that indefinable something that gives meaning, a sense of community, etc.--is not the same thing as factual truth about a religious faith and its history.
As a potential proselyte to a religious faith, those church-produced books and pamphlets are providing *one* perspective on it. They do not include historical and contemporary controversies. For that, you should turn to the academic field of Mormon studies. These books may be helpful:
Mormonism: A Very Short Introduction by Richard Bushman (himself a Latter-day Saint historian)
Mormonism: The Story of a New Religious Tradition by Jan Shipps (non-Mormon historian)
No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith by Fawn Brodie (classic biography, originally published in 1945, by a Latter-day Saint historian who was excommunicated for her book).
Website: mormonthink.com
As noted in posts above: investigate for yourself Latter-day Saint beliefs and teachings on homosexuality. You may also want to explore questions about the role of women in the church and their relationship to the Priesthood, history of blacks in the church, tithing requirements for church membership, and Temple work and theology. You might also want to independently verify Mormon claims for first-century North American civilizations descended from the (supposedly) ten lost tribes: the LDS perspective preserves a 19th-century perspective that has been superseded by modern archaeology and biblical studies.
posted by apartment dweller at 7:03 AM on February 7, 2011 [3 favorites]
There is nothing wrong with religion, per-se.
What I think is troubling is that you get the "cult vibe" off of them, but still like it. That makes me think you ARE in it for the community of it. Which also isn't wrong, per-se.
It is one thing to pay lip service to a church that you grew up in, and grew away from. But to join a church? To validate these other people's beliefs just so you can attend the ice-cream social? Seems worse.
posted by gjc at 7:14 AM on February 7, 2011
What I think is troubling is that you get the "cult vibe" off of them, but still like it. That makes me think you ARE in it for the community of it. Which also isn't wrong, per-se.
It is one thing to pay lip service to a church that you grew up in, and grew away from. But to join a church? To validate these other people's beliefs just so you can attend the ice-cream social? Seems worse.
posted by gjc at 7:14 AM on February 7, 2011
There is a web site called Belief.Net that may be of interest to you. They have a ton of nonpartisan information on just about every religion out there. Their Belief-o-Matic is a fun gadget that can help you zero in on what aspects of various religions you subscribe to, and help you find one you like.
posted by wwartorff at 9:26 AM on February 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by wwartorff at 9:26 AM on February 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
There is nothing wrong with religion, per-se.I may be mistaken, but I know of no religion which does not require you to hold beliefs that are not only unsupported by science, but in fact in most cases go directly against scientific knowledge.
As to the OP's concern over "not wanting to be one of those people", I find that often just the desire to be polite means that when in the company of two or three other people who hold different beliefs, you will feel an instinctive "pressure" to agree, even if what they suggest is entirely different from how you actually feel. I also suggest watching the South Park episode concerning the Mormons and Joseph Smith. As with most of their satires of religion, they hit the nail on the head.
posted by dougrayrankin at 9:42 AM on February 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
I may be mistaken, but I know of no religion which does not require you to hold beliefs that are not only unsupported by science, but in fact in most cases go directly against scientific knowledge.
Then you don't know of very many religions, do you? There are plenty of religions that coexist quite nicely with science and which do not go "directly against" scientific knowledge in any literal way. Hell, there are numerous religions which don't even require belief in a deity.
Of course, LDS definitely isn't one of those. And for someone who takes logic, analytical consistency, and scientific knowledge seriously, I would probably suggest that LDS is not the church for them.
posted by Sara C. at 10:41 AM on February 7, 2011 [2 favorites]
Then you don't know of very many religions, do you? There are plenty of religions that coexist quite nicely with science and which do not go "directly against" scientific knowledge in any literal way. Hell, there are numerous religions which don't even require belief in a deity.
Of course, LDS definitely isn't one of those. And for someone who takes logic, analytical consistency, and scientific knowledge seriously, I would probably suggest that LDS is not the church for them.
posted by Sara C. at 10:41 AM on February 7, 2011 [2 favorites]
Like any religion, Mormonism isn't true. You may feel drawn by their ideas because the missionaries' arguments make sense to you, or it may be because of the sense of community and social pressure, or both. Whatever the reason, while you're still on the fence, you need to decide this: is it your primary goal to make your beliefs match up with reality as closely as possible, or is it to improve your quality of life, feel part of a community, etc.?
For sure, there is plenty of evidence that joining a religion can make you a happier, better-adjusted person. But if your goal is to know the reality of the matter (and it sounds like it is), then I bet it will be easy to reconvince yourself that Mormonism is nonsense; you can start with some of the materials people have linked here. As Sara C. said, the LDS church makes an unusual amount of concrete claims that can be proven objectively wrong. For instance, there is no evidence of Jewish genetics in any group of Native Americans.
posted by abcde at 1:29 PM on February 7, 2011 [2 favorites]
For sure, there is plenty of evidence that joining a religion can make you a happier, better-adjusted person. But if your goal is to know the reality of the matter (and it sounds like it is), then I bet it will be easy to reconvince yourself that Mormonism is nonsense; you can start with some of the materials people have linked here. As Sara C. said, the LDS church makes an unusual amount of concrete claims that can be proven objectively wrong. For instance, there is no evidence of Jewish genetics in any group of Native Americans.
posted by abcde at 1:29 PM on February 7, 2011 [2 favorites]
Mod note: link to south park videos are considered noise. Please answer the OPs question or feel free to keep moving, thank you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:50 PM on February 7, 2011
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:50 PM on February 7, 2011
Your profile puts you in Manchester - if you want someone to talk to in person about these issues I'd be happy to listen. I was raised Jewish but haven't believed since I was 13; I don't know a great deal about Mormonism, although by a happy coincidence I was reading about Brigham Young today. Memail me if you're interested.
posted by topynate at 7:00 PM on February 7, 2011
posted by topynate at 7:00 PM on February 7, 2011
I'm an atheist (or at least a committed agnostic) and had a feeling similar to yours when I stayed with some evangelicals on a school trip and they prayed over me.
I'd suggest that the reason religion has played such a huge part in human history is that we're wired pretty deeply to Believe In Something. So there's nothing weird or unnatural in what you're experiencing.
Take a break, have a think, read some relevant books, and if they don't freak out and try and stalk you then go back.
You're allowed to be happy :)
posted by Sebmojo at 2:21 PM on September 7, 2011
I'd suggest that the reason religion has played such a huge part in human history is that we're wired pretty deeply to Believe In Something. So there's nothing weird or unnatural in what you're experiencing.
Take a break, have a think, read some relevant books, and if they don't freak out and try and stalk you then go back.
You're allowed to be happy :)
posted by Sebmojo at 2:21 PM on September 7, 2011
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You don't have to commit for a lifetime. Many people try on different faiths (and none at all) during different times in their lives.
(Lifetime atheist here, so I'm not preaching towards being a person of faith, I just don't think there's anything wrong with finding it if it's helpful to you.)
posted by xingcat at 7:37 PM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]