How to deal with incompatible sexual outlook?
January 24, 2011 9:16 PM Subscribe
My girlfriend of one year and I are both virgins. She wants to save herself for marriage while I don't.
I love everything else about her and we're scarily compatible in all other respects; which is to say, I really don't want to DTMFA, if possible. It's too early to talk of marriage of course, but just as a note, she can get married only in 4 years (after med school). Has anyone been able to do this? How can I cope with knowing that I can't get laid for several more years? This is driving me crazy enough to tap the hive.
I love everything else about her and we're scarily compatible in all other respects; which is to say, I really don't want to DTMFA, if possible. It's too early to talk of marriage of course, but just as a note, she can get married only in 4 years (after med school). Has anyone been able to do this? How can I cope with knowing that I can't get laid for several more years? This is driving me crazy enough to tap the hive.
This is not going to work. You're sexually incompatible on the most fundamental of levels. Every relationship I've ever encountered of this sort has ended far, far before the four-year mark for issues relating to the celibacy.
posted by Anonymous at 9:20 PM on January 24, 2011
posted by Anonymous at 9:20 PM on January 24, 2011
Maybe this seems like a really obvious thing to point out, but you can mutually pleasure each other in other ways than besides just having sex...unless you mean that she doesn't want to have any sort of sexual relationship at all. Which would imply that you probably aren't as compatible as you think and that you should probably reevaluate your relationship, or at the least have a long conversation about your differences.
posted by lucy.jakobs at 9:23 PM on January 24, 2011
posted by lucy.jakobs at 9:23 PM on January 24, 2011
Congratulations...
1. You've honored the sanctity of intercourse by waiting, both of you, for whatever reason.
2. You've acknowledged the value of what you've discovered in your girlfriend.
3 You've found someone of honor and integrity, a rare trait.
4. You've found someone with priorities and goals.
5. You've sought advice to preserve and honor all of these factors.
Yes, people have done this. Mature, intelligent people who realize that the long term goal is more important than the short term satisfaction.
You'll "cope", and, if you choose that route, you'll find the end result will be a relationship anchored in truth, respect, and love... it will be strong and prevail...
Make the right choice here, you'll probably never get another opportunity like this.
posted by HuronBob at 9:24 PM on January 24, 2011 [34 favorites]
1. You've honored the sanctity of intercourse by waiting, both of you, for whatever reason.
2. You've acknowledged the value of what you've discovered in your girlfriend.
3 You've found someone of honor and integrity, a rare trait.
4. You've found someone with priorities and goals.
5. You've sought advice to preserve and honor all of these factors.
Yes, people have done this. Mature, intelligent people who realize that the long term goal is more important than the short term satisfaction.
You'll "cope", and, if you choose that route, you'll find the end result will be a relationship anchored in truth, respect, and love... it will be strong and prevail...
Make the right choice here, you'll probably never get another opportunity like this.
posted by HuronBob at 9:24 PM on January 24, 2011 [34 favorites]
I have friends who met our first week of college, and became each other's first boyfriend/girlfriend later that fall. I think they started having sex the year they both started graduate school, so about four years later. They've been very happily together for 27 years now. So, yeah, it can be done, and it can work out really well. Sometimes in my own relationship (17 years now) things have been hard, and my partner and I will remind ourselves that, being in it for the long haul, one rough year here or there won't matter much. So, too, if you end up with this woman for a couple of decades, this early time of no sex will seem like a distant, brief memory, and totally worth it.
I'm sure it's frustrating, and if you decide to break up over this, that doesn't make you a bad person. But in your shoes, I'd probably take things a step at a time and not worry too much about the distant future; things can change a lot in a relatively short time. You can find a new level of peace with not having sex (this might come and go over time); her feelings about it might change; getting married before or during medical school might start to seem possible; or the relationship may reveal itself to be non-viable for other reasons.
posted by not that girl at 9:34 PM on January 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm sure it's frustrating, and if you decide to break up over this, that doesn't make you a bad person. But in your shoes, I'd probably take things a step at a time and not worry too much about the distant future; things can change a lot in a relatively short time. You can find a new level of peace with not having sex (this might come and go over time); her feelings about it might change; getting married before or during medical school might start to seem possible; or the relationship may reveal itself to be non-viable for other reasons.
posted by not that girl at 9:34 PM on January 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
I went to medical school. Then I did my internship and residency. If you or she thinks the period after medical school will be a more convenient time to make wedding arrangements, you are both sorely mistaken.
Noone can answer whether this is a sacrifice worth making other than you. It's worked before, I'm sure, but it wouldn't be for me, personally.
posted by drpynchon at 9:38 PM on January 24, 2011 [21 favorites]
Noone can answer whether this is a sacrifice worth making other than you. It's worked before, I'm sure, but it wouldn't be for me, personally.
posted by drpynchon at 9:38 PM on January 24, 2011 [21 favorites]
I think I'd have to know her definition of "sex" before I could legitimately say what you ought to do. If this is a technical-virginity situation-- everything but vaginal or anal penetration-- that's not really the celibacy sentence it might look like.
Also, people can and do change their minds. How ironclad is this commitment of hers? Is it religious? Cultural? Spawned from some other personal motivation? How much open discussion have you guys had? How much sexual education do you each have?
There's a lot going on there that I can't really plumb with just "she wants to save it for marriage and that's gonna be at least five years from the beginning of the relationship."
Anecdotally, prior to Mr. F, I dated a fair number of people-- one woman, six or seven guys-- and absolutely none of those relationships went past four years. I wasn't really mature and confident enough to hold down a serious, OMFG-marriage commitment until my late 20s/ early 30s. I did have sex in those relationships, and the longest I waited was 2.5 years (first serious boyfriend). You may want to consider what your dating histories look like and how solid your plans are longterm.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 9:39 PM on January 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Also, people can and do change their minds. How ironclad is this commitment of hers? Is it religious? Cultural? Spawned from some other personal motivation? How much open discussion have you guys had? How much sexual education do you each have?
There's a lot going on there that I can't really plumb with just "she wants to save it for marriage and that's gonna be at least five years from the beginning of the relationship."
Anecdotally, prior to Mr. F, I dated a fair number of people-- one woman, six or seven guys-- and absolutely none of those relationships went past four years. I wasn't really mature and confident enough to hold down a serious, OMFG-marriage commitment until my late 20s/ early 30s. I did have sex in those relationships, and the longest I waited was 2.5 years (first serious boyfriend). You may want to consider what your dating histories look like and how solid your plans are longterm.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 9:39 PM on January 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
On a church trip during high school, I had a conversation with the outstanding husband-wife directorial team of our choir ensemble. They were always so kind, candid, and were great Christians. Finally, I asked the question you posted, except the awkward 17 year old version: 'did you guys wait until you got married to have sex?'
They paused uncomfortably, but didn't lie. "Let me just say I wouldn't buy a car I have to drive the rest of my life without a test drive or two," said Don. "Those marriage vows are more important than a rule about premarital sex that is a lot more biblically questionable than the adultery one."
If you wait until marriage you are gambling that you are sexually compatible. You are also gambling you won't resent her for four years of your sexual peak. You are also voluntarily forgoing some major life experience. I feel comfortable summing up: You'll regret it. Run.
posted by norm at 9:40 PM on January 24, 2011 [35 favorites]
They paused uncomfortably, but didn't lie. "Let me just say I wouldn't buy a car I have to drive the rest of my life without a test drive or two," said Don. "Those marriage vows are more important than a rule about premarital sex that is a lot more biblically questionable than the adultery one."
If you wait until marriage you are gambling that you are sexually compatible. You are also gambling you won't resent her for four years of your sexual peak. You are also voluntarily forgoing some major life experience. I feel comfortable summing up: You'll regret it. Run.
posted by norm at 9:40 PM on January 24, 2011 [35 favorites]
I can't believe how glib the first three answers are. Please listen to HuronBob.
It's not that you have to save yourself; but can you? Yes, of course! People have done it for centuries.
If I had to question one of your premises, it would be why you can't get married until after she finishes med school? If you're scarily compatible in all other respects, just get married already. You're a grownup, and so is she. Why is it "of course" too early to talk about this?
posted by torticat at 9:41 PM on January 24, 2011 [8 favorites]
It's not that you have to save yourself; but can you? Yes, of course! People have done it for centuries.
If I had to question one of your premises, it would be why you can't get married until after she finishes med school? If you're scarily compatible in all other respects, just get married already. You're a grownup, and so is she. Why is it "of course" too early to talk about this?
posted by torticat at 9:41 PM on January 24, 2011 [8 favorites]
Can you remain in a longterm relationship without sex?
Your answer to that question is all that really matters. Don't feel bad if it isn't something you aren't able to do. And contrary to HuronBob's answer, admitting you cannot do it doesn't mean you have any less integrity or honor.
posted by joeyjoejoejr at 9:44 PM on January 24, 2011 [21 favorites]
Your answer to that question is all that really matters. Don't feel bad if it isn't something you aren't able to do. And contrary to HuronBob's answer, admitting you cannot do it doesn't mean you have any less integrity or honor.
posted by joeyjoejoejr at 9:44 PM on January 24, 2011 [21 favorites]
"I love everything else about her and we're scarily compatible in all other respects; which is to say, I really don't want to DTMFA, if possible."
So stick with her then. Life often requires sacrifices. As other posters said, one of the big questions here is "what kind of virginity are we talking about?"
Yeah, sex is awesome, but hey, there are people who live entire LIVES without having sex. There are 90-year-old virgins out there. If you really really love her, you can wait.
Now, should you? It's up to you. If you guys are really that perfect of a couple, it can't hurt to try. However, if this is anything like a typical college relationship, you'll probably break up sooner or later anyway.
posted by Slinga at 9:46 PM on January 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
So stick with her then. Life often requires sacrifices. As other posters said, one of the big questions here is "what kind of virginity are we talking about?"
Yeah, sex is awesome, but hey, there are people who live entire LIVES without having sex. There are 90-year-old virgins out there. If you really really love her, you can wait.
Now, should you? It's up to you. If you guys are really that perfect of a couple, it can't hurt to try. However, if this is anything like a typical college relationship, you'll probably break up sooner or later anyway.
posted by Slinga at 9:46 PM on January 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Bonus consideration for you: if this is a deep religious/ cultural/ other commitment for her, have you talked about having and raising children? Could you be OK with your sons and/or daughters being raised to meet a standard that you, yourself, do not feel the same level of investment toward?
I've got pals who are in what they call "unequally yoked" relationships-- where one partner is some flavor of evangelical/ fundamentalist Christian and one is not-- and it can be a deeply ugly scene if there's ideological incompatibility, especially where childrearing is involved. Make sure you really understand where your SO is coming from here, and what else might come with that particular stance, and how malleable or immutable it really is, before you make longterm plans.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 9:47 PM on January 24, 2011 [6 favorites]
I've got pals who are in what they call "unequally yoked" relationships-- where one partner is some flavor of evangelical/ fundamentalist Christian and one is not-- and it can be a deeply ugly scene if there's ideological incompatibility, especially where childrearing is involved. Make sure you really understand where your SO is coming from here, and what else might come with that particular stance, and how malleable or immutable it really is, before you make longterm plans.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 9:47 PM on January 24, 2011 [6 favorites]
Why is med school a line for marriage? That seems weird. Life won't get easier or less busy after that, or even more financially secure right away.
And, this is a huge sexual incompatibility. Waiting for marriage is not something you believe in. Break up.
posted by J. Wilson at 9:48 PM on January 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
And, this is a huge sexual incompatibility. Waiting for marriage is not something you believe in. Break up.
posted by J. Wilson at 9:48 PM on January 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
You aren't a bad person if you want to have sex! You can have 'honor and integrity' and sex if you want to, and if you decide to do that, don't waste a damn second of your time feeling guilty about it. There's nothing wrong with waiting either... if you want to. But you don't HAVE to want to, and wanting to have sex with the person you love is a perfectly normal and healthy thing.
You have to talk to her about this, like now. Figure out exactly why she's wanting to wait. Maybe she'll persuade you that it's worth it. But if she really can't, don't pressure her either- just leave. You're important too and you deserve to have your needs met.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:52 PM on January 24, 2011 [12 favorites]
You have to talk to her about this, like now. Figure out exactly why she's wanting to wait. Maybe she'll persuade you that it's worth it. But if she really can't, don't pressure her either- just leave. You're important too and you deserve to have your needs met.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:52 PM on January 24, 2011 [12 favorites]
If you're "scarily compatible in all other respects" but not compatible regarding sex, then you've got yourself a friend. You don't have to DTMFA in the traditional sense, but perhaps you should consider changing the definition of your relationship from romantic to friendly.
posted by Fuego at 9:52 PM on January 24, 2011 [15 favorites]
posted by Fuego at 9:52 PM on January 24, 2011 [15 favorites]
Is she doing it out of religious obligation, or out of some sense of romanticism?
If it's the first, I can't help you, other than to stress that religion continues to be a tool of oppressive patriarchal domination, and you both should probably read some stuff by bell hooks.
If it's the second, well, there are lots of fantastic arguments against waiting until marriage. Foremost among them is that it's an awful risk to find out if you're sexually compatible with somebody until marriage. Sexual compatibility is one of the paramount issues on which relationships are based. No matter how much you love somebody, if the sex is bad, it's a HUGE problem that leads to resentment, infidelity, and other piles of shit. You don't want to find out the sex is bad until after you've committed to only sleep with that person for the rest of your life.
posted by Jon_Evil at 9:57 PM on January 24, 2011 [8 favorites]
If it's the first, I can't help you, other than to stress that religion continues to be a tool of oppressive patriarchal domination, and you both should probably read some stuff by bell hooks.
If it's the second, well, there are lots of fantastic arguments against waiting until marriage. Foremost among them is that it's an awful risk to find out if you're sexually compatible with somebody until marriage. Sexual compatibility is one of the paramount issues on which relationships are based. No matter how much you love somebody, if the sex is bad, it's a HUGE problem that leads to resentment, infidelity, and other piles of shit. You don't want to find out the sex is bad until after you've committed to only sleep with that person for the rest of your life.
posted by Jon_Evil at 9:57 PM on January 24, 2011 [8 favorites]
It's not that you have to save yourself; but can you? Yes, of course! People have done it for centuries.
Actually, they haven't. More women than men have, certainly, but pre-marital sex was one of those things you "didn't do" but everyone did anyway. Especially dudes.
posted by Anonymous at 10:04 PM on January 24, 2011
Actually, they haven't. More women than men have, certainly, but pre-marital sex was one of those things you "didn't do" but everyone did anyway. Especially dudes.
posted by Anonymous at 10:04 PM on January 24, 2011
I think it's telling that you say that she "can't" get married until after med school. Unless she's some sort of child prodigy starting medical school at 13, she absolutely can get married whenever she wants.
I was born (to married parents) when my father was in medical school. I know plenty of grad students who are married.
This makes me think that it's not that she can't marry you, it's that she doesn't want to. In which case, waiting around seems pointless.
She's got a ridiculous philosophical stance that is incompatible with real life. Why don't you get one of your own - tell her you want to get married now. Or not at all.
posted by Sara C. at 10:07 PM on January 24, 2011 [25 favorites]
I was born (to married parents) when my father was in medical school. I know plenty of grad students who are married.
This makes me think that it's not that she can't marry you, it's that she doesn't want to. In which case, waiting around seems pointless.
She's got a ridiculous philosophical stance that is incompatible with real life. Why don't you get one of your own - tell her you want to get married now. Or not at all.
posted by Sara C. at 10:07 PM on January 24, 2011 [25 favorites]
Folks, I didn't mean to imply that sex prior to marriage was immoral, inappropriate, or lacked honor... hell, that would invalidate BOTH of my marriages! My point was that, honoring that position, if that was what you believed in, could be a long term positive for both individuals, if they choose that route.
I think my point was, given the manner in which you describe your girlfriend... god, man, those types of relationships are hard to come by... as much as you feel that you've got to do IT right now, in the long term, sex is easy, finding someone you love that much is hard...
I hope the two of you find a way to make this work... 40 years down the road you'll be glad you did!
posted by HuronBob at 10:14 PM on January 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
I think my point was, given the manner in which you describe your girlfriend... god, man, those types of relationships are hard to come by... as much as you feel that you've got to do IT right now, in the long term, sex is easy, finding someone you love that much is hard...
I hope the two of you find a way to make this work... 40 years down the road you'll be glad you did!
posted by HuronBob at 10:14 PM on January 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
If it's driving you crazy now, it's gonna drive you crazy for the next four years. Don't do this to yourself. Even if you do last it out, it's denying yourself something important to you (else you wouldn't be so worked up) for no good reason. You can find someone who is just as compatible with you, but doesn't have weird foibles that preclude sex until they are in their late twenties. This is a fundamental incompatibility.
As an aside, there's nothing about not fucking that makes someone better, more honorable or possessed of more integrity, and having sex doesn't preclude having priorities and goals. Sex isn't some horrible thing that destroys lives. It's perfectly normal and to deny yourself sex for another person's ridiculous hangup is not going to be good for you.
posted by Sternmeyer at 10:19 PM on January 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
As an aside, there's nothing about not fucking that makes someone better, more honorable or possessed of more integrity, and having sex doesn't preclude having priorities and goals. Sex isn't some horrible thing that destroys lives. It's perfectly normal and to deny yourself sex for another person's ridiculous hangup is not going to be good for you.
posted by Sternmeyer at 10:19 PM on January 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
This is a simple problem with two not so great choices. Either you love her enough and respect her views on this enough to wait and hope she does not dump you along the way, or you decide that getting laid is more important because, well, you really don't know what it is like to be "getting it" and would like to find out and realize that if you wait and after all that time you are not sexually compatible that you will either break up then after waiting 4 more years or spend the rest of your life unfulfilled about sex with some sort of pent up anger that will eventually manifest itself in bitterness toward her and will undermine the relationship probably at the point you have your second kid and realize that, well, you are trapped in this existence and you are now up to your ears in debt, have two kids, an extra 15 pounds and you are still not getting laid often and when you do, eh.
I cannot advise you on which path to take. The choice is yours.
posted by AugustWest at 10:20 PM on January 24, 2011
I cannot advise you on which path to take. The choice is yours.
posted by AugustWest at 10:20 PM on January 24, 2011
Sara C. has my favorite answer. She's expecting you to wait around for four years so that you can get married when she's done with school? If you guys *really, really* think this is obviously going to work in the long term, elope. Go get married tomorrow. What have you got to lose? You're planning on it already, right?
I mean, if you're not, then you're investing the next four (sexless) years of your life in what exactly? If you know you're going to get married after a year together, then what are you waiting for? You only live once. My wife and I got married after about a year and a half. If we waited 5 years, then we *still* wouldn't be married. We'd just be putting off real life indefinitely for no reason.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 10:31 PM on January 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
I mean, if you're not, then you're investing the next four (sexless) years of your life in what exactly? If you know you're going to get married after a year together, then what are you waiting for? You only live once. My wife and I got married after about a year and a half. If we waited 5 years, then we *still* wouldn't be married. We'd just be putting off real life indefinitely for no reason.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 10:31 PM on January 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Lucubrator: "How can I cope with knowing that I can't get laid for several more years?"
Your profile says you're 23. Many people don't lose their virginity until much later than this. You'll survive. Trust me.
posted by IndigoRain at 10:38 PM on January 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Your profile says you're 23. Many people don't lose their virginity until much later than this. You'll survive. Trust me.
posted by IndigoRain at 10:38 PM on January 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
just as a data point, i had a friend who was totally into this girl who was saving herself for marriage. he was so into her that when she finally agreed to date him, he went along with the waiting thing. i heard through the grapevine that they ended up Doing It While Not Married. I guess her urges overwhelmed her? But I also guessed (just guessed, not confirmed) that maybe it was enough for her, that he was willing to wait until she was ready, and that made her feel secure enough to be ready sooner than he was expecting. Also, they did get married pretty soon after that. So maybe once she realized they really wanted to get married and were 100% planning to, waiting didn't seem like such a HUGE deal.
Before anyone jumps on me about it, I want to clarify that I don't mean you should manipulate her with promises of marriage or whatever in order to lure her into having sex. What I am saying is if you two are really truly compatible and it becomes obvious to both of you that you want to spend your lives together, she may very well relax on her rules a bit.
You didn't clarify what other activities you guys are gettin' into. If you are getting close to it, and you can tell she really wants to but is resisting for her moral reasons, that's one thing. If she seems generally interested in sex stuff that would definitely worry me.
posted by GastrocNemesis at 10:39 PM on January 24, 2011
Before anyone jumps on me about it, I want to clarify that I don't mean you should manipulate her with promises of marriage or whatever in order to lure her into having sex. What I am saying is if you two are really truly compatible and it becomes obvious to both of you that you want to spend your lives together, she may very well relax on her rules a bit.
You didn't clarify what other activities you guys are gettin' into. If you are getting close to it, and you can tell she really wants to but is resisting for her moral reasons, that's one thing. If she seems generally interested in sex stuff that would definitely worry me.
posted by GastrocNemesis at 10:39 PM on January 24, 2011
oops . . . geterally UNinterested
posted by GastrocNemesis at 10:41 PM on January 24, 2011
posted by GastrocNemesis at 10:41 PM on January 24, 2011
I'm sorry, but I take offense at Huronbob's implication that not waiting until marriage is somehow not an act of 'honor and integrity.' Pre-marital sex is realistic. And not arbitrary, judgmental, or puritanical, which is not true of many (not all) people who make a huge show of waiting.
posted by namesarehard at 10:47 PM on January 24, 2011 [11 favorites]
posted by namesarehard at 10:47 PM on January 24, 2011 [11 favorites]
The only way you're going to arrive on the other end of that four years she's asking you for is dragging a steam trunk full of resentment that no amount of amazingly successful married sex is going to help you unpack. At some point you will need therapy. She is asking you to make an enormous sacrifice, and maybe, since you haven't had sex yet, you don't yet realize its scope, so please consider taking my word for it. It is vast indeed.
Are you prepared to spend the next four years dragging that steam trunk, Jacob Marley style? Are you prepared to spend uncountable subsequent years unpacking that trunk and putting its contents in an order you can live with? Is your girlfriend/wife prepared to help you do that? Because it's going to be her problem too.
For what it's worth, in the fourteen years I've been dating, I have felt myself "scarily compatible" with several people, and in retrospect I've been wrong more than once.
posted by milk white peacock at 10:54 PM on January 24, 2011 [11 favorites]
Are you prepared to spend the next four years dragging that steam trunk, Jacob Marley style? Are you prepared to spend uncountable subsequent years unpacking that trunk and putting its contents in an order you can live with? Is your girlfriend/wife prepared to help you do that? Because it's going to be her problem too.
For what it's worth, in the fourteen years I've been dating, I have felt myself "scarily compatible" with several people, and in retrospect I've been wrong more than once.
posted by milk white peacock at 10:54 PM on January 24, 2011 [11 favorites]
I'll say this one more time. My point was honoring someone's philosophical position on this was honorable. Whenever we respect another person's position (or our own) we are being honorable...
That wasn't a value judgement on sex before marriage.
posted by HuronBob at 11:07 PM on January 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
That wasn't a value judgement on sex before marriage.
posted by HuronBob at 11:07 PM on January 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Whenever we respect another person's position (or our own) we are being honorable...
But it doesn't seem to be Lucubrator's position. From that standpoint, he is dishonoring himself by not respecting his own philosophy.
No sex before marriage is one thing, but saying that neither is possible until you've been together for another four years (more than five years together!) is kind of silly. If you stay together with her for four years, I think you will regret it.
posted by grouse at 11:18 PM on January 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
But it doesn't seem to be Lucubrator's position. From that standpoint, he is dishonoring himself by not respecting his own philosophy.
No sex before marriage is one thing, but saying that neither is possible until you've been together for another four years (more than five years together!) is kind of silly. If you stay together with her for four years, I think you will regret it.
posted by grouse at 11:18 PM on January 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
"we're scarily compatible in all other respects"
Any time I've heard anyone use the phrase "scarily compatible" or "so compatible it's crazy!" or "we're just so in sync it's a miracle" etc. etc, they're usually dead wrong. It's a sign of the honeymoon stage, which at a year into your first relationship, sounds just about on target. I think you're in the stage of intoxication where you want her so bad all her flaws melt away. The fact that she isn't even tempted kinda says she doesn't feel the same way.
The relationship may run its course with or without sex. Listen, feelings don't last forever. Marriage is really, really hard. Marriage is not magical. Sex isn't even that magical. But, alas, it's so hard to grok these things without living through it.
On preview: What white milk peacock said.
posted by Nixy at 11:41 PM on January 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Any time I've heard anyone use the phrase "scarily compatible" or "so compatible it's crazy!" or "we're just so in sync it's a miracle" etc. etc, they're usually dead wrong. It's a sign of the honeymoon stage, which at a year into your first relationship, sounds just about on target. I think you're in the stage of intoxication where you want her so bad all her flaws melt away. The fact that she isn't even tempted kinda says she doesn't feel the same way.
The relationship may run its course with or without sex. Listen, feelings don't last forever. Marriage is really, really hard. Marriage is not magical. Sex isn't even that magical. But, alas, it's so hard to grok these things without living through it.
On preview: What white milk peacock said.
posted by Nixy at 11:41 PM on January 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Is this based on religion? If yes, I have nothing to say to you.
If not, then I take a slightly different perspective from most folks here. I say, the issue of sex is *irrelevant*. It depends on who you are, but I don't think not having sex for 5 years takes some kind of superhuman strength. That's really not the issue. The issue is... why? I mean, "saving yourself for marriage" is a bizarre thing. Yes, bizarre. It only doesn't seem truly bizarre, because we are encultured by Christianity to accept it as a commonplace concept. Here's what would worry me about that request - not my inability to go without sex - what would worry me is the fetishization of sex in a really odd direction. Sex is natural between consenting adults. To build some kind of elaborate intellectual or psychological infrastructure to make withholding sex for years and years, seem *normal*, is highly disturbing. I would worry about being involved with a person who can build such baroque psychological states for bizarre and irrational purposes. Frankly, I'd think "this person is trouble". Now, I'm not saying it can't work for relationships in with *both* parties engage in the same rococo psychological phantasmagoria - obviously, it works for some. But if you are questioning this, then I see it as an incompatibility.
In sum, I wouldn't worry about the sex. I'd worry about what her request says about her, possible insane hangups surrounding sex, and an unhealthy psychological life. I'd flee. Perhaps, since you get along so well otherwise, you can reach the very sensible conclusion in such situations: we get along well and don't have sex... let's be friends! And for a relationship look to someone who doesn't have bizarre ideas, hangups or fetishize sex.
posted by VikingSword at 11:43 PM on January 24, 2011 [19 favorites]
If not, then I take a slightly different perspective from most folks here. I say, the issue of sex is *irrelevant*. It depends on who you are, but I don't think not having sex for 5 years takes some kind of superhuman strength. That's really not the issue. The issue is... why? I mean, "saving yourself for marriage" is a bizarre thing. Yes, bizarre. It only doesn't seem truly bizarre, because we are encultured by Christianity to accept it as a commonplace concept. Here's what would worry me about that request - not my inability to go without sex - what would worry me is the fetishization of sex in a really odd direction. Sex is natural between consenting adults. To build some kind of elaborate intellectual or psychological infrastructure to make withholding sex for years and years, seem *normal*, is highly disturbing. I would worry about being involved with a person who can build such baroque psychological states for bizarre and irrational purposes. Frankly, I'd think "this person is trouble". Now, I'm not saying it can't work for relationships in with *both* parties engage in the same rococo psychological phantasmagoria - obviously, it works for some. But if you are questioning this, then I see it as an incompatibility.
In sum, I wouldn't worry about the sex. I'd worry about what her request says about her, possible insane hangups surrounding sex, and an unhealthy psychological life. I'd flee. Perhaps, since you get along so well otherwise, you can reach the very sensible conclusion in such situations: we get along well and don't have sex... let's be friends! And for a relationship look to someone who doesn't have bizarre ideas, hangups or fetishize sex.
posted by VikingSword at 11:43 PM on January 24, 2011 [19 favorites]
What is you sexual relationship like now? How do you get off? How does she get off? How do the two intersect?
If her issue is not having vaginal sex until you are married, that could be workable if you are having other kinds of sex. If you do not get off together at all ever until marriage, you will be getting more of that after you are married.
You talk about her needs. But you don't say a word about yours. What are your sexual needs and is she aware of them? If she is entirely unwilling to do anything with your sexual needs what are you doing to advocate for yourself?
Stand up for yourself and work on a solution together or learn to live with just masturbation, god help you.
posted by munchingzombie at 12:18 AM on January 25, 2011
If her issue is not having vaginal sex until you are married, that could be workable if you are having other kinds of sex. If you do not get off together at all ever until marriage, you will be getting more of that after you are married.
You talk about her needs. But you don't say a word about yours. What are your sexual needs and is she aware of them? If she is entirely unwilling to do anything with your sexual needs what are you doing to advocate for yourself?
Stand up for yourself and work on a solution together or learn to live with just masturbation, god help you.
posted by munchingzombie at 12:18 AM on January 25, 2011
Your profile says you're 23. Many people don't lose their virginity until much later than this. You'll survive.
But spending one's mid-twenties as a virgin on the verge -- i.e. with the thought that good times are just around the corner -- is a bit different from chalking 1,500 lines on a wall counting off days. (If you really want to look at historic precedent, the idea of waiting until marriage goes alongside not spending a huge amount of time together before you get married.)
There are obviously lots of details that count towards this, because we're talking about four years here. Are you living together? Are you planning to do so? Could you manage that? (And of course, the question of what level of physical intimacy you're currently at.)
Still, medical school is one of those things that, judging from my college friends, quickly dispels a sense of excessive reverence towards bodily functions.
posted by holgate at 12:18 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
But spending one's mid-twenties as a virgin on the verge -- i.e. with the thought that good times are just around the corner -- is a bit different from chalking 1,500 lines on a wall counting off days. (If you really want to look at historic precedent, the idea of waiting until marriage goes alongside not spending a huge amount of time together before you get married.)
There are obviously lots of details that count towards this, because we're talking about four years here. Are you living together? Are you planning to do so? Could you manage that? (And of course, the question of what level of physical intimacy you're currently at.)
Still, medical school is one of those things that, judging from my college friends, quickly dispels a sense of excessive reverence towards bodily functions.
posted by holgate at 12:18 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Of course people are able to do this. I had a relationship in college that was more than two years without sex. But this was based on religious conviction for both of us, and there was support from friends who also considered this a worthwhile norm.
If it's a religious thing, there's a perfectly godly approach to the problem... namely, get married. Not now, necessarily, but why wait four years? There's a reason the Book of Common Prayer notes that one reason for marriage was "to avoid fornication". No need to frustrate yourselves unduly; there's nothing wrong with getting married while in grad school.
Also, how do you answer your own question, given that you've gone a year already?
posted by zompist at 1:17 AM on January 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
If it's a religious thing, there's a perfectly godly approach to the problem... namely, get married. Not now, necessarily, but why wait four years? There's a reason the Book of Common Prayer notes that one reason for marriage was "to avoid fornication". No need to frustrate yourselves unduly; there's nothing wrong with getting married while in grad school.
Also, how do you answer your own question, given that you've gone a year already?
posted by zompist at 1:17 AM on January 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
It's too early to talk of marriage of course,
It's definitely not too early to "talk of" getting married. It's not even too early to get married. Well, it might be too early for you, but it's not automatically out of the question just because of the length of time you've been together.
but just as a note, she can get married only in 4 years (after med school).
What? Why? Is your whole sex life really being held hostage to her academic plans?
If you want to stay together, try to work on compromising. We don't have much details to go off here, but it sounds like you're letting her call the shots and you're not supposed to question anything.
posted by John Cohen at 1:29 AM on January 25, 2011 [5 favorites]
It's definitely not too early to "talk of" getting married. It's not even too early to get married. Well, it might be too early for you, but it's not automatically out of the question just because of the length of time you've been together.
but just as a note, she can get married only in 4 years (after med school).
What? Why? Is your whole sex life really being held hostage to her academic plans?
If you want to stay together, try to work on compromising. We don't have much details to go off here, but it sounds like you're letting her call the shots and you're not supposed to question anything.
posted by John Cohen at 1:29 AM on January 25, 2011 [5 favorites]
I would fully explore why she wants to wait until marriage and you don't. I'm trying to imagine how two people who are scarily compatible can disagree on this point. To me, it reflects two very different sets of values that probably have other edges beyond this one topic. I would want to really know the topography/scope of your differences if I were in either of your positions.
posted by funkiwan at 2:33 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by funkiwan at 2:33 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
She wants to save herself for marriage
This phrase has more within it than just celibacy.
The way it sounds if you two did have sex it'd be a case of 'taking something from her' or 'she'd have less value as a non-virgin'.
Also why would having mutual masturbation/oral sex be fine but vaginal sex not be ok ? Is this some technicality like Bill Clinton's 'I did not have sex with that woman' ?
posted by selton at 2:46 AM on January 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
This phrase has more within it than just celibacy.
The way it sounds if you two did have sex it'd be a case of 'taking something from her' or 'she'd have less value as a non-virgin'.
Also why would having mutual masturbation/oral sex be fine but vaginal sex not be ok ? Is this some technicality like Bill Clinton's 'I did not have sex with that woman' ?
posted by selton at 2:46 AM on January 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
I was in a very similar relationship not too long ago. Since I'm in the military, and he was going into med school, we were likely going to have to wait. But as people have already stated, there's the internship and residency and he was thinking that he would possibly have to go into the military as a medical officer. And then I, especially due to the long distance, stopped seeing us as "scarily compatible" and more "we work together pretty well" and then to "do I really want to lay my life out this way?"
Does she see you two as scarily compatible?
Not to discourage you by my experiences, but long distance relationships (if that's what this is) combined with at least one partner not having the time, and eventually the will, to devote to the other, is very very difficult.
posted by DisreputableDog at 3:48 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Does she see you two as scarily compatible?
Not to discourage you by my experiences, but long distance relationships (if that's what this is) combined with at least one partner not having the time, and eventually the will, to devote to the other, is very very difficult.
posted by DisreputableDog at 3:48 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
You know, there is a reason so many girls at BYU are married before their sophomore year.
I don't see this thing working. Why on earth are you planning to wait till the 5-year mark in your relationship to get married? I mean, if you plan to have sex and marriage eventually. Come on. Lots of med students are married already.
posted by SMPA at 4:19 AM on January 25, 2011
I don't see this thing working. Why on earth are you planning to wait till the 5-year mark in your relationship to get married? I mean, if you plan to have sex and marriage eventually. Come on. Lots of med students are married already.
posted by SMPA at 4:19 AM on January 25, 2011
Response by poster: Sorry I left this question so vague. I didn't go anonymous so I could answer questions as they arose. The reason she wants to wait is because she's a Catholic and me, to clarify, I'm a Dawkin-fan-boy atheist. Her decision stems from both that cultural and religious standpont. And yes, we've talked at length about living with an unequal yoke. Also and I should have really mentioned it before, she loves me a lot. Given the honeymoon stage, take that with as much salt as you'd like.
posted by Lucubrator at 4:24 AM on January 25, 2011
posted by Lucubrator at 4:24 AM on January 25, 2011
As other people have mentioned, it's worth it to figure out why she wants to "save herself," and why she wants to wait until after med school for marriage - is it a wedding planning thing, or is she not yet fully committed to the idea of getting married? In addition, figure out how the two of you plan to proceed if you do get married and turn out to be sexually incompatible.
Whatever you do, tread carefully - this is an important conversation to be frank about, but the last thing you want to do is make her feel like she's being pressured to have sex before she's ready.
I see a lot of AskMe advice that boils down to "sexual compatibility or DTMFA," and I don't think it's that clear-cut. There are people who wait until marriage and make the marriage work. However, it's one of those things that is better to know before you commit forever. I don't think I could marry someone who's never seen me cry or heard me fart, or with whom I've never had an argument or shared a kitchen. Same goes for sex.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:33 AM on January 25, 2011
Whatever you do, tread carefully - this is an important conversation to be frank about, but the last thing you want to do is make her feel like she's being pressured to have sex before she's ready.
I see a lot of AskMe advice that boils down to "sexual compatibility or DTMFA," and I don't think it's that clear-cut. There are people who wait until marriage and make the marriage work. However, it's one of those things that is better to know before you commit forever. I don't think I could marry someone who's never seen me cry or heard me fart, or with whom I've never had an argument or shared a kitchen. Same goes for sex.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:33 AM on January 25, 2011
This is probably the best AskMe this year, based on the feverish spiritedness of the responses.
At the end of the day, it's important to remember a couple of things:
1) Other girls will come along that are also "scarily compatible". You would think the odds are against you in this particular area, that she might be "the one", or that you're possibly letting something slip by. This is unlikely, and perhaps "the real one" won't have sexual hangups and/or religious celibacy. There are lots and lots of girls out there. In fact, nearly 50% of all people? Girls. Chances are, a few of them are compatible in quite a few ways. You're young still, not out of the hunt or anything.
2) Sex varies. Dramatically. Compatibility in "all other ways" does not imply compatibility in the bedroom. This is the sort of thing that you will not be able to experience for yourself unless you have sex with more than one person. And yes, some people wait, and marry as virgins, and then wonder what all the fuss is about. Because the sex isn't good, they're incompatible, and it's all around unpleasant. This is a risk you have to be willing to take, and from the sounds of your antsyness, doesn't sound like a particularly compelling course of action. (Some people wait, get married, and apparently have amazing, God-given orgasms the likes of which would blow your mind. So I've heard. Why chance it?)
3) Be careful about spending any real time trying to convince her to stray. I don't think you've laid that out as an option, but sooner or later yourself will get the better of yourself and you might start getting pushy. This would damage the relationship, bring on the resentment others have mentioned, and possibly cause trust issues.
You might as well find a girl who is scarily compatible with you in a bunch of ways, including willingness to have sex. There are lots of them out there. Lots and lots of them. Seriously. This is a fundamental component of a relationship and that it's already starting to be problematic augers poorly for you and her. But that's okay. Go your own ways, explain your reasoning in a non-pressuring way, and have fun and be merry. (And safe!)
posted by disillusioned at 4:33 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
At the end of the day, it's important to remember a couple of things:
1) Other girls will come along that are also "scarily compatible". You would think the odds are against you in this particular area, that she might be "the one", or that you're possibly letting something slip by. This is unlikely, and perhaps "the real one" won't have sexual hangups and/or religious celibacy. There are lots and lots of girls out there. In fact, nearly 50% of all people? Girls. Chances are, a few of them are compatible in quite a few ways. You're young still, not out of the hunt or anything.
2) Sex varies. Dramatically. Compatibility in "all other ways" does not imply compatibility in the bedroom. This is the sort of thing that you will not be able to experience for yourself unless you have sex with more than one person. And yes, some people wait, and marry as virgins, and then wonder what all the fuss is about. Because the sex isn't good, they're incompatible, and it's all around unpleasant. This is a risk you have to be willing to take, and from the sounds of your antsyness, doesn't sound like a particularly compelling course of action. (Some people wait, get married, and apparently have amazing, God-given orgasms the likes of which would blow your mind. So I've heard. Why chance it?)
3) Be careful about spending any real time trying to convince her to stray. I don't think you've laid that out as an option, but sooner or later yourself will get the better of yourself and you might start getting pushy. This would damage the relationship, bring on the resentment others have mentioned, and possibly cause trust issues.
You might as well find a girl who is scarily compatible with you in a bunch of ways, including willingness to have sex. There are lots of them out there. Lots and lots of them. Seriously. This is a fundamental component of a relationship and that it's already starting to be problematic augers poorly for you and her. But that's okay. Go your own ways, explain your reasoning in a non-pressuring way, and have fun and be merry. (And safe!)
posted by disillusioned at 4:33 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Listen, if you've already waited 1 year and are going crazy, AND you are facing the possibility of waiting 4 more, try to imagine how much you will have built up sex in your mind when you finally do get to do it. I can't help but think that your expectations will be through the roof and that you will expect her to deliver BIG TIME if you've waited 5 years for it. Do you think it's realistic that the sex will live up to your expectations? Will it be swinging from the chandelier, lose-all-sense-of-time-and-place sex?? Probably not. Sometimes sex isn't very good with someone. As others have said, sexual compatibility is absolutely essential to a successful relationship/marriage. You're taking a huge chance on this. Trust us.
People build sex up before they've ever had it and, awesome as it is, the first time is usually a dud (just speaking from my own experience and anecdotally from most of my friends'.)
I guess what I'm saying is that if you wait 5 years and it doesn't turn out to be worth it, it will ruin your relationship. I can almost guarantee this.
posted by fso at 4:38 AM on January 25, 2011
People build sex up before they've ever had it and, awesome as it is, the first time is usually a dud (just speaking from my own experience and anecdotally from most of my friends'.)
I guess what I'm saying is that if you wait 5 years and it doesn't turn out to be worth it, it will ruin your relationship. I can almost guarantee this.
posted by fso at 4:38 AM on January 25, 2011
Little of what I have to say is new, but...
we're scarily compatible in all other respects
Compatible as boyfriend and girlfriend? Perhaps mostly, except for the sex part, which is not a small part. Compatible in a lifelong partner sort of sense? You really have no idea. There's nothing wrong with not knowing. After all, you're only 23, virgins, presumably not living together. You can't possibly know that you're compatible in a long-term sense. Pretending to know is only going to get you into trouble.
she can get married only in 4 years (after med school).
This doesn't make any sense. She's making a choice. It's a valid choice. Pretending it's not a choice is unfair because it is an attempt to deny responsibility for the choice. But, more importantly:
It's too early to talk of marriage of course
And yet here you are talking of marriage. Why? Because you want to get married? No. You're talking of marriage because that's what seems to be standing between you and sex. Which is a bad reason to talk about marriage.
Saving yourself, or compromising to respect your partner's choice to save herself, for a marriage that you know you want because it's the beginning of a long and happy partnership of shared efforts and values (a la Huron Bob's comments) could be a fine, if challenging, way to go. Saving yourself for marriage because it's the gateway to a loss of virginity is dumb.
posted by jon1270 at 5:01 AM on January 25, 2011 [6 favorites]
we're scarily compatible in all other respects
Compatible as boyfriend and girlfriend? Perhaps mostly, except for the sex part, which is not a small part. Compatible in a lifelong partner sort of sense? You really have no idea. There's nothing wrong with not knowing. After all, you're only 23, virgins, presumably not living together. You can't possibly know that you're compatible in a long-term sense. Pretending to know is only going to get you into trouble.
she can get married only in 4 years (after med school).
This doesn't make any sense. She's making a choice. It's a valid choice. Pretending it's not a choice is unfair because it is an attempt to deny responsibility for the choice. But, more importantly:
It's too early to talk of marriage of course
And yet here you are talking of marriage. Why? Because you want to get married? No. You're talking of marriage because that's what seems to be standing between you and sex. Which is a bad reason to talk about marriage.
Saving yourself, or compromising to respect your partner's choice to save herself, for a marriage that you know you want because it's the beginning of a long and happy partnership of shared efforts and values (a la Huron Bob's comments) could be a fine, if challenging, way to go. Saving yourself for marriage because it's the gateway to a loss of virginity is dumb.
posted by jon1270 at 5:01 AM on January 25, 2011 [6 favorites]
Jeez, people, judgmental much?
Lucubrator, if you really love each other, have worked out your religious differences, and have some indication that your girlfriend isn't using her religion as a cover for something else (not interested in sex, gay, history of abuse, whatever) then I think you should start thinking marriage now.
I don't, however, think you should have to wait for four years. That's just too long to be in an in-between stage, and it could stunt your relationship, besides frustrating you.
There's good reason why the choice to wait until marriage is usually accompanied by rapid progress to marriage. It's not just that couples want to have sex for physical reasons, but also the intimacy and deeper closeness it brings. Waiting for years and years to cement your relationship in this way could end up very sad and damaging, I think.
posted by yarly at 5:22 AM on January 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
Lucubrator, if you really love each other, have worked out your religious differences, and have some indication that your girlfriend isn't using her religion as a cover for something else (not interested in sex, gay, history of abuse, whatever) then I think you should start thinking marriage now.
I don't, however, think you should have to wait for four years. That's just too long to be in an in-between stage, and it could stunt your relationship, besides frustrating you.
There's good reason why the choice to wait until marriage is usually accompanied by rapid progress to marriage. It's not just that couples want to have sex for physical reasons, but also the intimacy and deeper closeness it brings. Waiting for years and years to cement your relationship in this way could end up very sad and damaging, I think.
posted by yarly at 5:22 AM on January 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
I don't mean to be cold, but if you are a "Dawkins-fanboy-atheist" and she is a Catholic who is "saving herself for marriage", then you are not scarily compatible in other respects. You are in fact quite incompatible and I am surprised you have lasted this long.
You are 23 and want to have sex, and the nature of her commitment (being a religious one) is probably not something you're going to change her mind about. Your stark differences in your religious beliefs are only setting you both up for trouble down the road (you'd marry a Catholic?). I would end the relationship. The two of you have goals which are very different.
posted by King Bee at 5:24 AM on January 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
You are 23 and want to have sex, and the nature of her commitment (being a religious one) is probably not something you're going to change her mind about. Your stark differences in your religious beliefs are only setting you both up for trouble down the road (you'd marry a Catholic?). I would end the relationship. The two of you have goals which are very different.
posted by King Bee at 5:24 AM on January 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
Unless waiting to have sex til you're married is as important to you as it is to her - and I mean honestly, truly, something you believe in, there's no way you'll last the four years til marriage. Unless you're committed to it too, and that's more than just going along with her stance, that's believing it too, then - no. Sure, sexual frustration will be irritating, but it's like being tempted to eat something off your diet - you want it, but you don't indulge because of a long term goal that is more important. Unless that's your attitude, I don't see how this can work.
posted by lemniskate at 5:26 AM on January 25, 2011
posted by lemniskate at 5:26 AM on January 25, 2011
I'm on the 'concerned that it's not worth it and you won't make it' side of the fence, so most of my advice has already been covered. But as people have said, it's possible to come out of this very, very happy if you actually are very compatible.
My two cents: just be willing to be honest with yourself and recognize your breaking point. There's a chance that sooner or later you'll be ridiculously frustrated, so much so that the relationship isn't worth it. If you ever reach that point, don't let any desperation ("I've put so much into this relationship") or misplaces sense of duty/honor throw you off - get out. It's healthy and good to try to stick with a relationship long-term, and to compromise for things that are important to your partner. So more power to you. But people get into trouble when they ignore their own, legitimate feelings.
So take sex off the table. Realize that it isn't happening for 4 years. And as you get used to this idea, be honest with yourself, and realize if you're feeling good and committed, or if you're feeling angry and trapped. If it's the latter, that's okay - you have real needs that are being held up by rules that some would consider arbitrary. You're not "that guy" if you have needs and they end the relationship, you're a human with real needs.
As long as you are able to recognize your breaking point, it will never be wasted time even if you do stay with her for awhile before breaking up. And if you never reach that breaking point, great! That means you two are truly as compatible as you say.
posted by Tehhund at 5:41 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
My two cents: just be willing to be honest with yourself and recognize your breaking point. There's a chance that sooner or later you'll be ridiculously frustrated, so much so that the relationship isn't worth it. If you ever reach that point, don't let any desperation ("I've put so much into this relationship") or misplaces sense of duty/honor throw you off - get out. It's healthy and good to try to stick with a relationship long-term, and to compromise for things that are important to your partner. So more power to you. But people get into trouble when they ignore their own, legitimate feelings.
So take sex off the table. Realize that it isn't happening for 4 years. And as you get used to this idea, be honest with yourself, and realize if you're feeling good and committed, or if you're feeling angry and trapped. If it's the latter, that's okay - you have real needs that are being held up by rules that some would consider arbitrary. You're not "that guy" if you have needs and they end the relationship, you're a human with real needs.
As long as you are able to recognize your breaking point, it will never be wasted time even if you do stay with her for awhile before breaking up. And if you never reach that breaking point, great! That means you two are truly as compatible as you say.
posted by Tehhund at 5:41 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
This really seems like the sort of thing pre-marital counseling is meant for. The type of pre-marital counseling that the Catholic church strongly encourages, to make sure that a couple is compatible before they make a lifelong, super-serious pact of love.
Suppose she had some sort of disorder, such that it would be literally impossible for her to have sex for four years. That would suck, right? But, given how much you love her, respect her, and want to be with her, it'd be the sort of thing, I gather, you'd be willing to deal with. (I'm just guessing -- some people wouldn't be able to even try going that long without sex, but your post makes me think you're not like that.) You wouldn't be asking, "I want sex but she doesn't -- how do I cope?" Instead, you'd be asking, "We can't have sex -- how do we cope?"
Notice the difference: one way puts both of you, as a team, working together to overcome a difficult situation. The other way -- the question you are actually asking -- is pitting you against her. You're not a team, you have a fundamental disagreement, and you're searching for a way to keep it from tearing the two of you apart.
That's what counseling is for. It will help the two of you figure out what your common ground on this issue is, and whether these disagreements are merely superficial ("We really do want the same life -- this is just a silly little issue!") or actually deep, dangerous fracture lines ("This seems like a silly little issue, but it really represents major problems we've been papering over for the last year!")
This may be a matter of just coming to a mutual understanding, finding the strength to support each other's values, and learning what it means to truly love another. Or this may be a matter of recognizing a deep and significant difference in life plans and worldview. If it's the former, the counseling will help give you the tools to overcome. If it's the latter, the counseling will help you acknowledge and come to terms with this and ultimately see where to go from here.
Don't feel guilted into thinking, "This is just about sex -- I should be mature enough to forget about it." It's not just about sex. It's about who you are, and who she is, and what it means for the two of you to live a life as romantic, loving, and sexual partners.
posted by meese at 5:55 AM on January 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
Suppose she had some sort of disorder, such that it would be literally impossible for her to have sex for four years. That would suck, right? But, given how much you love her, respect her, and want to be with her, it'd be the sort of thing, I gather, you'd be willing to deal with. (I'm just guessing -- some people wouldn't be able to even try going that long without sex, but your post makes me think you're not like that.) You wouldn't be asking, "I want sex but she doesn't -- how do I cope?" Instead, you'd be asking, "We can't have sex -- how do we cope?"
Notice the difference: one way puts both of you, as a team, working together to overcome a difficult situation. The other way -- the question you are actually asking -- is pitting you against her. You're not a team, you have a fundamental disagreement, and you're searching for a way to keep it from tearing the two of you apart.
That's what counseling is for. It will help the two of you figure out what your common ground on this issue is, and whether these disagreements are merely superficial ("We really do want the same life -- this is just a silly little issue!") or actually deep, dangerous fracture lines ("This seems like a silly little issue, but it really represents major problems we've been papering over for the last year!")
This may be a matter of just coming to a mutual understanding, finding the strength to support each other's values, and learning what it means to truly love another. Or this may be a matter of recognizing a deep and significant difference in life plans and worldview. If it's the former, the counseling will help give you the tools to overcome. If it's the latter, the counseling will help you acknowledge and come to terms with this and ultimately see where to go from here.
Don't feel guilted into thinking, "This is just about sex -- I should be mature enough to forget about it." It's not just about sex. It's about who you are, and who she is, and what it means for the two of you to live a life as romantic, loving, and sexual partners.
posted by meese at 5:55 AM on January 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
I know people who waited a couple of years to have sex, but every couple I know that planned on getting married in 4 years or so ended up breaking up somewhere towards the end of that period. I'd almost be more concerned about the fact that she wants to wait so long to get married.
I assume you realize that if she's a Catholic who takes it so seriously, she's not going to want to use birth control and that's why she wants to wait -- so she doesn't start having babies in med school? Are you cool with that?
And are you sure she's going to really marry an atheist when it's not a hypothetical, somewhere-in-four-years idea, but something that's actually happening?
It's been done, it's doable, but I'd suggest that the marriage actually happening is far from certain and you may up waiting for 3 years just to break up at the end.
If you're really enjoying each other and have some kind of (non-vaginal) sexual relationship, then no real harm done. But if it's one of those long-distance, barely touching each other kind of things, I wouldn't count on the marriage even happening, let alone making it all worth the wait.
posted by callmejay at 6:04 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
I assume you realize that if she's a Catholic who takes it so seriously, she's not going to want to use birth control and that's why she wants to wait -- so she doesn't start having babies in med school? Are you cool with that?
And are you sure she's going to really marry an atheist when it's not a hypothetical, somewhere-in-four-years idea, but something that's actually happening?
It's been done, it's doable, but I'd suggest that the marriage actually happening is far from certain and you may up waiting for 3 years just to break up at the end.
If you're really enjoying each other and have some kind of (non-vaginal) sexual relationship, then no real harm done. But if it's one of those long-distance, barely touching each other kind of things, I wouldn't count on the marriage even happening, let alone making it all worth the wait.
posted by callmejay at 6:04 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
If she's as seriously committed to her faith as she appears to be, she's going to want a Catholic wedding. Is she going to want you to convert? Can you go through the pre-marital counseling (pre-Cana or the equivalent) respectfully, without flying your "Dawkins-fanboy-atheist" freak flag? Are you willing to have your future children baptized and raised as Catholic? What about birth control - what's her position on Natural Family Planning versus pharmaceutical contraception or contraceptive devices such as the IUD?
If you can't step up to these issues - now or after she finishes med school* - then you should probably let her go.
*Also, what's behind her "I can't get married till after med school" thinking? Is it about getting married, or having a wedding? Because that's a whole 'nother raft of issues.
posted by shiny blue object at 6:08 AM on January 25, 2011 [6 favorites]
If you can't step up to these issues - now or after she finishes med school* - then you should probably let her go.
*Also, what's behind her "I can't get married till after med school" thinking? Is it about getting married, or having a wedding? Because that's a whole 'nother raft of issues.
posted by shiny blue object at 6:08 AM on January 25, 2011 [6 favorites]
Sorry I left this question so vague. I didn't go anonymous so I could answer questions as they arose. The reason she wants to wait is because she's a Catholic and me, to clarify, I'm a Dawkin-fan-boy atheist. Her decision stems from both that cultural and religious standpont. And yes, we've talked at length about living with an unequal yoke. Also and I should have really mentioned it before, she loves me a lot. Given the honeymoon stage, take that with as much salt as you'd like.
Yeah, totally not compatible, and you're just starting to see the first cracks in the façade after a year. Move on and find someone else with whom you're actually compatible. Really--there are lots of great atheist med students out there with whom you'll have a shared belief system, a great life together, and plenty of sex pre-marriage.
posted by The Michael The at 6:08 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Yeah, totally not compatible, and you're just starting to see the first cracks in the façade after a year. Move on and find someone else with whom you're actually compatible. Really--there are lots of great atheist med students out there with whom you'll have a shared belief system, a great life together, and plenty of sex pre-marriage.
posted by The Michael The at 6:08 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I know the whole Catholic/atheist thing seems like a hang up. I was raised in a deeply religious family and I am glad that I got to understand the mythology etc. I would want the kids to at least have that so that they are not looking at a painting and going who's this man on a stick (I'm quoting someone, don't remember who). Even despite that, she's very practical in all other respects being a science major and all. She's also Indian which has more to do with her choice than being Catholic in itself. Right now, our sexual acts are limited to mutual masturbation/oral sex. I'm updating this from a blackberry at work so future responses will be hard. Thank you so much for your answers. I have a lot to think about.
posted by Lucubrator at 6:22 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Lucubrator at 6:22 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Just to throw out there: You don't know if you guys are sexually compatible or not. No one can possibly know this, even the people who say that if you wait will be magically rewarded with happiness and sexual compatibility. You cannot know or prove whether waiting until marriage or special virtues in your girlfriend are what make relationships work, so you shouldn't waste your time trying.
You do know, however, that you and your girlfriend weigh the relationship differently. If every relationship were made up of two parts, the mental relationship and the sex, you know that she places little to no weight on the sex since she feels that sex isn't necessary to make you guys a successful couple, at least until marriage.
You, on the other hand, crave something more to make this relationship complete and feel that sex plays a bigger role in it altogether. There's no right or wrong answer to this since everyone weighs relationships a little differently. However it's the conflict of interest between you and your girlfriend that's frustrating you.
Simply put, you feel that sex makes up a more important role in the 4+ years leading up to your marriage than your girlfriend does.
This is a topic you should bring up with your girlfriend. If you are as compatible with her as you say you are, then you guys can find some way to meet in the middle and fulfill eachothers needs. You guys don't necessarily need to lose your virginities, but there are other ways to meet sexual needs. She gives a little, you give a little.
If she doesn't want to collaborate in finding a middle ground that satisfies both of you, then that's unfair to you because it means you are playing this relationship on her terms. She has needs, and you should be respectful of that, but you have needs too, and I can guarantee that if your needs aren't met at all, you will be unhappy.
posted by nikkorizz at 6:29 AM on January 25, 2011
You do know, however, that you and your girlfriend weigh the relationship differently. If every relationship were made up of two parts, the mental relationship and the sex, you know that she places little to no weight on the sex since she feels that sex isn't necessary to make you guys a successful couple, at least until marriage.
You, on the other hand, crave something more to make this relationship complete and feel that sex plays a bigger role in it altogether. There's no right or wrong answer to this since everyone weighs relationships a little differently. However it's the conflict of interest between you and your girlfriend that's frustrating you.
Simply put, you feel that sex makes up a more important role in the 4+ years leading up to your marriage than your girlfriend does.
This is a topic you should bring up with your girlfriend. If you are as compatible with her as you say you are, then you guys can find some way to meet in the middle and fulfill eachothers needs. You guys don't necessarily need to lose your virginities, but there are other ways to meet sexual needs. She gives a little, you give a little.
If she doesn't want to collaborate in finding a middle ground that satisfies both of you, then that's unfair to you because it means you are playing this relationship on her terms. She has needs, and you should be respectful of that, but you have needs too, and I can guarantee that if your needs aren't met at all, you will be unhappy.
posted by nikkorizz at 6:29 AM on January 25, 2011
Sex is fun, sex with someone you love and are committed to is even more fun. Having sex with your partner fosters intimacy and connection and is a fun way of expressing and exploring your commitment.
The thing is, compared to being with someone who you have a deep and abiding intimacy with, who you love and who loves you back and who you're committed to building a life together with? Sex is not that awesome. Please note I'm not talking about a situation where you can't have physical intimacy ever, or being in a sexless/loveless marriage - those are different, more extreme situations. Waiting a couple of years until you've made (or are ready to make) a commitment is just not that big of a deal compared to losing a great relationship due to physical urges that can be dealt with other ways.
Unless it is to you - in which case you already know the answer and you're just hear looking for support for you to DTMFA.
And for the record, a year is plenty of time for adults to know whether they want to get married, and 23 pretty much qualifies as adult - I'm not saying you might not make a mistake, but staying with someone for 4 years and then getting married doesn't guarantee a mistake free existence either.
posted by dadici at 6:38 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
The thing is, compared to being with someone who you have a deep and abiding intimacy with, who you love and who loves you back and who you're committed to building a life together with? Sex is not that awesome. Please note I'm not talking about a situation where you can't have physical intimacy ever, or being in a sexless/loveless marriage - those are different, more extreme situations. Waiting a couple of years until you've made (or are ready to make) a commitment is just not that big of a deal compared to losing a great relationship due to physical urges that can be dealt with other ways.
Unless it is to you - in which case you already know the answer and you're just hear looking for support for you to DTMFA.
And for the record, a year is plenty of time for adults to know whether they want to get married, and 23 pretty much qualifies as adult - I'm not saying you might not make a mistake, but staying with someone for 4 years and then getting married doesn't guarantee a mistake free existence either.
posted by dadici at 6:38 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
The sooner you move on, the happier you're going to be. Both as an atheist who tried to be in a serious relationship with a Catholic boy, and as someone who thinks sexual compatibility way before marriage is very, very important.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:41 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:41 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Give it another year, and talk, talk, talk about your feelings. You'd be shocked at some of the things she thinks you think, that you actually have a different position on. And you're probably wrong about her feelings on many an issue.
Describe her family, and their involvement, and I think it'll become clearer.
posted by cashman at 7:17 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Describe her family, and their involvement, and I think it'll become clearer.
posted by cashman at 7:17 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Ultimately, I feel like you're going to be incredibly disappointed, disillusioned and regretful of the time you lost if you persevere with this. Don't listen to this sanctity of virginity stuff. Sex is one of the best things in human life and you're missing out. Listen to Sara C. You need to make a decision and then get her to make a decision, one way or the other.
posted by the foreground at 7:21 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by the foreground at 7:21 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's not that you have to save yourself; but can you? Yes, of course! People have done it for centuries.
No, they haven't. In the days of yore, people didn't wait 4+ years (plus however long you've already been dating) before getting married for precisely this reason.
HuronBob's answer is sweet, and it's certainly possible to do this without killing yourself. However, she's indicated that her career and her religion are unchangeable absolutes in her life, while you're indicating an eagerness to compromise. I'm not the sort of person to suggest that men should be dominant or unwilling to compromise in their relationships...however, it's not a healthy sign when either person in the relationship does it so often.
I was born and raised Catholic, and can't think of any of my peers or relatives who actually followed the Vatican's advice on sex (*cough* including our priest). Are you sure that you'd be compatible as a married couple? I know that you see marriage as an endgame here, but I'm having a tough time determining if your girlfriend actually has marriage in her sights. Also, the Atheist vs. Catholic debate will rear its head again, should you decide to have kids. People can be compatible if they hold some opposing views..however, you need to be prepared for those arguments to bubble up to the surface from time to time.
It sounds like your girlfriend comes from a very different cultural background, and you need to have a long discussion about where your relationship is going, and what sort of life you'd set up for yourselves as a married couple (especially wrt. kids -- also, how does she feel about post-marital birth control?). Committing yourself to this girl for the duration of your 20s without sex or marriage strikes me as a bigger commitment than most actual marriages I've seen. Maybe she's worth it, but that's a hell of a sacrifice.
Phrased in a less cynical way: If you go ahead with this, and actually make it out unscathed, it's pretty certain that the two of you are meant to be, because there's going to be a whole lot of strain along the way.
There's nothing shameful about waiting a while to initiate a sexual relationship with your girlfriend. However, setting a firm date (quite far into the future), and prerequisite of marriage to it strikes me as arbitrary, and a bad idea.
I went to medical school. Then I did my internship and residency. If you or she thinks the period after medical school will be a more convenient time to make wedding arrangements, you are both sorely mistaken.
I can confirm this firsthand -- I dated a recent Med School grad a while ago, and we were both under the delusion that his life would get easier/less chaotic after graduation. This couldn't have been further from the truth. There's internships, residency, jobhunting (and residency and internship-hunting), board certifications, and more; not to mention crippling levels of debt, the fact that new doctors almost always get stuck on weird (ie. 12-hour night) shifts, and a general sense of burnout. I'm not a particularly needy person, but it's difficult to begin and maintain a relationship under those conditions. (Sidenote: If your girlfriend's drowning under her current workload, she may want to rethink med school). None of this is a reason to end your current relationship; however, it's a reason to seriously reconsider the notion that a marriage will be any easier 4 years from now.
Realistically, you're looking at 6-8 years before her life and workload will even begin to resemble "normal."
Basically, what I'm saying is that you need to think long and hard about this, and then either pop the question, or move on.
posted by schmod at 7:23 AM on January 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
No, they haven't. In the days of yore, people didn't wait 4+ years (plus however long you've already been dating) before getting married for precisely this reason.
HuronBob's answer is sweet, and it's certainly possible to do this without killing yourself. However, she's indicated that her career and her religion are unchangeable absolutes in her life, while you're indicating an eagerness to compromise. I'm not the sort of person to suggest that men should be dominant or unwilling to compromise in their relationships...however, it's not a healthy sign when either person in the relationship does it so often.
I was born and raised Catholic, and can't think of any of my peers or relatives who actually followed the Vatican's advice on sex (*cough* including our priest). Are you sure that you'd be compatible as a married couple? I know that you see marriage as an endgame here, but I'm having a tough time determining if your girlfriend actually has marriage in her sights. Also, the Atheist vs. Catholic debate will rear its head again, should you decide to have kids. People can be compatible if they hold some opposing views..however, you need to be prepared for those arguments to bubble up to the surface from time to time.
It sounds like your girlfriend comes from a very different cultural background, and you need to have a long discussion about where your relationship is going, and what sort of life you'd set up for yourselves as a married couple (especially wrt. kids -- also, how does she feel about post-marital birth control?). Committing yourself to this girl for the duration of your 20s without sex or marriage strikes me as a bigger commitment than most actual marriages I've seen. Maybe she's worth it, but that's a hell of a sacrifice.
Phrased in a less cynical way: If you go ahead with this, and actually make it out unscathed, it's pretty certain that the two of you are meant to be, because there's going to be a whole lot of strain along the way.
There's nothing shameful about waiting a while to initiate a sexual relationship with your girlfriend. However, setting a firm date (quite far into the future), and prerequisite of marriage to it strikes me as arbitrary, and a bad idea.
I went to medical school. Then I did my internship and residency. If you or she thinks the period after medical school will be a more convenient time to make wedding arrangements, you are both sorely mistaken.
I can confirm this firsthand -- I dated a recent Med School grad a while ago, and we were both under the delusion that his life would get easier/less chaotic after graduation. This couldn't have been further from the truth. There's internships, residency, jobhunting (and residency and internship-hunting), board certifications, and more; not to mention crippling levels of debt, the fact that new doctors almost always get stuck on weird (ie. 12-hour night) shifts, and a general sense of burnout. I'm not a particularly needy person, but it's difficult to begin and maintain a relationship under those conditions. (Sidenote: If your girlfriend's drowning under her current workload, she may want to rethink med school). None of this is a reason to end your current relationship; however, it's a reason to seriously reconsider the notion that a marriage will be any easier 4 years from now.
Realistically, you're looking at 6-8 years before her life and workload will even begin to resemble "normal."
Basically, what I'm saying is that you need to think long and hard about this, and then either pop the question, or move on.
posted by schmod at 7:23 AM on January 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
She wants you to wait four years?
I'm sure there are many people who could deal with this kind of situation and stay together and make it work and live happily ever after.
I am not one of those people.
But good luck and be sure to let us know what happens!
posted by freakazoid at 7:51 AM on January 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm sure there are many people who could deal with this kind of situation and stay together and make it work and live happily ever after.
I am not one of those people.
But good luck and be sure to let us know what happens!
posted by freakazoid at 7:51 AM on January 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm dumbfounded that oral sex/mutual masturbation is okay between the two of you. That definitely qualifies as sex in my book.
Maybe you should just stick it out then, if everything else in this relationship is going peachy.
posted by joeyjoejoejr at 7:58 AM on January 25, 2011
Maybe you should just stick it out then, if everything else in this relationship is going peachy.
posted by joeyjoejoejr at 7:58 AM on January 25, 2011
As an atheist, I couldn't date a religious person.
That isn't true, of course, and I could, and many people do. I know atheists who have married religious people (more on the internet than in real life, but IRL I don't know a large enough sample size of people who are married). But success there, it seems, is based on how seriously both of them take their (a)religious beliefs. A lukewarm theist, who goes to church ChrEasterly, will be much easier to date than a Phelps kid. The only other way that seems to work is if both people agree to never discuss religion ever, which apparently some people can do, though I couldn't possibly.
And this would be one of the reasons I couldn't date a religious person. Sex before marriage is important to me. I was religious until I went to college, and then I had sex, and it was for the better, because if I had married my first lover would be miserable. I honesly believe not all people are sexually compatible. And while sex isn't the only thing that is important, people who tell you that it isn't important at all are speaking from a very narrow perspective.
Finally, maybe you both have a lot in common. But think carefully about what those things are that you have in common, and are those things truly important, lifelong compatibilities?
posted by jenlovesponies at 8:26 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
That isn't true, of course, and I could, and many people do. I know atheists who have married religious people (more on the internet than in real life, but IRL I don't know a large enough sample size of people who are married). But success there, it seems, is based on how seriously both of them take their (a)religious beliefs. A lukewarm theist, who goes to church ChrEasterly, will be much easier to date than a Phelps kid. The only other way that seems to work is if both people agree to never discuss religion ever, which apparently some people can do, though I couldn't possibly.
And this would be one of the reasons I couldn't date a religious person. Sex before marriage is important to me. I was religious until I went to college, and then I had sex, and it was for the better, because if I had married my first lover would be miserable. I honesly believe not all people are sexually compatible. And while sex isn't the only thing that is important, people who tell you that it isn't important at all are speaking from a very narrow perspective.
Finally, maybe you both have a lot in common. But think carefully about what those things are that you have in common, and are those things truly important, lifelong compatibilities?
posted by jenlovesponies at 8:26 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Oh wait.
I missed the part about oral sex/mutual masturbation.
Ok, now it seems far more do-able.
posted by freakazoid at 8:54 AM on January 25, 2011
I missed the part about oral sex/mutual masturbation.
Ok, now it seems far more do-able.
posted by freakazoid at 8:54 AM on January 25, 2011
Right now, our sexual acts are limited to mutual masturbation/oral sex.
Okay, so you're having sex. Problem solved.
(I would still recommend against marrying this girl, though.)
posted by milk white peacock at 9:02 AM on January 25, 2011 [5 favorites]
Okay, so you're having sex. Problem solved.
(I would still recommend against marrying this girl, though.)
posted by milk white peacock at 9:02 AM on January 25, 2011 [5 favorites]
I work for a woman who's husband is in the middle of residency. Count on that oral/masturbation stuff going out the window, there won't even be time for that.
posted by Anonymous at 9:13 AM on January 25, 2011
posted by Anonymous at 9:13 AM on January 25, 2011
Okay, so you're having sex. Problem solved.
To a 23 year old male virgin, that's so totally not true.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:40 AM on January 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
To a 23 year old male virgin, that's so totally not true.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:40 AM on January 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
This question really does not compute in my mind. So you are having sex (oral/mutual) but you want to have "sex"? I'd honestly be more wary of spending the rest of my life with somebody who wants to wait to have "sex" but considers sucking somebody's dick okay. That's just inconsistent.
Oh, and a thousand times this: "Sex is natural between consenting adults. To build some kind of elaborate intellectual or psychological infrastructure to make withholding sex for years and years, seem *normal*, is highly disturbing."
posted by kuju at 9:40 AM on January 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
Oh, and a thousand times this: "Sex is natural between consenting adults. To build some kind of elaborate intellectual or psychological infrastructure to make withholding sex for years and years, seem *normal*, is highly disturbing."
posted by kuju at 9:40 AM on January 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
You may be interested in an article published in the latest Economist about some recent research on the subject of waiting till marriage. The tl;dr:
Until now, the argument that couples should wait until they are married before they have sex has rested on mere assertion and anecdote. Dean Busby and his colleagues at Brigham Young University, in Utah, however, have gathered some data which support delay. . . . Because religiosity delays sexual activity, [they controlled] for religiosity. They also controlled for income, education, race and length of relationship. . . . Their report, just published in the Journal of Family Psychology, suggests that people who delay having sex do indeed have better relationships, on four different measures (see table). That result applies to both men and women. . . . Unfortunately, Dr Busby’s method cannot distinguish the cause of this.posted by Cucurbit at 10:22 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
I just want to talk about this for a minute, others up-thread have said most everything else I would want to say:
we're scarily compatible in all other respects
jon1270 said it pretty well with "Compatible in a lifelong partner sort of sense? You really have no idea." I want to emphasize the fact that, I truly believe when we are younger, we think compatibility is a noun: it is something that exists outside of us, just waiting to be discovered. It is an ethereal, but measurable quality existing statically in some sort of platonic ideal state, in lesser or greater amounts depending on the person.
This is crap. When you grow a bit older, if you are willing to be honest, the more you realize how much of a lie that is: "compatibility" is—for the most part—a verb. It is something that is borne of having similar levels of willingness to approach similar issues in the same way, and work on them in a consistent fashion. Sure, there's a bit of the first kind of compatibility required to get things going—but that is almost accidental for most folks, you realize, the longer you're in a relationship.
Now, I could be overstating the case here, and you could be well aware of that, and it could be the case that you two really work this way. Great! But please recognize that any of us who have been around the block more than a few times—like many folks in this thread—have seen this before, we've seen this kind of "scary compatibility" before, over and over and over. All it is is the thing that happens when you meet someone and you click and that is the trick that nature uses to, ironically (in terms of this question) get you two to the point where you can fuck. Nature could give a crap about what happens after that or marriage documents or four years of medical school though.
So don't focus on this. Also remember that there is, in fact, nothing particularly noble about sacrifice in the context of relationships: compromise is a necessary evil of quality relationships, and willingness to compromise—as well as willingness to know when you shouldn't—is the hallmark of adult relationships—but true sacrifice for romantic love is the realm of the stupid and resentful. Couching it all in terms of nobility and honor and sanctity and all this kind of shit is to me offensive and misleading more than anything else. Don't be fooled. Live your life, establish what you want from a relationship right now and don't feel guilty about not wanting to have the conditions for sex be 1) four year lead time and 2) marriage. Not agreeing to that doesn't make you bad, it makes you human and not stupid.
In other words, nthing all the other people who've said more or less the same thing in other words.
posted by dubitable at 10:25 AM on January 25, 2011 [8 favorites]
we're scarily compatible in all other respects
jon1270 said it pretty well with "Compatible in a lifelong partner sort of sense? You really have no idea." I want to emphasize the fact that, I truly believe when we are younger, we think compatibility is a noun: it is something that exists outside of us, just waiting to be discovered. It is an ethereal, but measurable quality existing statically in some sort of platonic ideal state, in lesser or greater amounts depending on the person.
This is crap. When you grow a bit older, if you are willing to be honest, the more you realize how much of a lie that is: "compatibility" is—for the most part—a verb. It is something that is borne of having similar levels of willingness to approach similar issues in the same way, and work on them in a consistent fashion. Sure, there's a bit of the first kind of compatibility required to get things going—but that is almost accidental for most folks, you realize, the longer you're in a relationship.
Now, I could be overstating the case here, and you could be well aware of that, and it could be the case that you two really work this way. Great! But please recognize that any of us who have been around the block more than a few times—like many folks in this thread—have seen this before, we've seen this kind of "scary compatibility" before, over and over and over. All it is is the thing that happens when you meet someone and you click and that is the trick that nature uses to, ironically (in terms of this question) get you two to the point where you can fuck. Nature could give a crap about what happens after that or marriage documents or four years of medical school though.
So don't focus on this. Also remember that there is, in fact, nothing particularly noble about sacrifice in the context of relationships: compromise is a necessary evil of quality relationships, and willingness to compromise—as well as willingness to know when you shouldn't—is the hallmark of adult relationships—but true sacrifice for romantic love is the realm of the stupid and resentful. Couching it all in terms of nobility and honor and sanctity and all this kind of shit is to me offensive and misleading more than anything else. Don't be fooled. Live your life, establish what you want from a relationship right now and don't feel guilty about not wanting to have the conditions for sex be 1) four year lead time and 2) marriage. Not agreeing to that doesn't make you bad, it makes you human and not stupid.
In other words, nthing all the other people who've said more or less the same thing in other words.
posted by dubitable at 10:25 AM on January 25, 2011 [8 favorites]
If she believes that vaginal intercourse is somehow "sacred" and you do not, that represents a fundamental incompatibility between the two of you that will make a relationship very challenging.
I respect that HuronBob and some other people in this thread believe that penis-in-vagina intercourse is somehow more "sacred" than other forms of sexual contact. I do. I would literally die for your right to believe that.
For myself, and for (as I understand it) the God I believe in and worship every week doesn't think that mutual masturbation and penis-in-vagina intercourse are different in any way--in my religious view, both activities can be expressions of love or simple responses to hormonal and libidinal urges, or indeed, both.
From my own perspective, I find people who say that they will not engage in penis-in-vagina intercourse on Christian religious grounds, but who will have manual and oral sex, profoundly hypocritical. I am also a Christian and there really isn't any Scriptural justification for this; in my view, any passage from the Bible that one can interpret as "no sex before marriage" refers to all kinds of sex, not just penis-in-vagina intercourse.
But then again, people differ in their interpretation of every religious tradition's written corpora. (That said, I've never seen any document that purports to draw the distinction outlined above and support it with references from the Christian scriptures or tradition, so I don't actually know where people are getting the "Whacking each other off is OK but intercourse makes the Baby Jesus cry.")
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:31 AM on January 25, 2011 [7 favorites]
I respect that HuronBob and some other people in this thread believe that penis-in-vagina intercourse is somehow more "sacred" than other forms of sexual contact. I do. I would literally die for your right to believe that.
For myself, and for (as I understand it) the God I believe in and worship every week doesn't think that mutual masturbation and penis-in-vagina intercourse are different in any way--in my religious view, both activities can be expressions of love or simple responses to hormonal and libidinal urges, or indeed, both.
From my own perspective, I find people who say that they will not engage in penis-in-vagina intercourse on Christian religious grounds, but who will have manual and oral sex, profoundly hypocritical. I am also a Christian and there really isn't any Scriptural justification for this; in my view, any passage from the Bible that one can interpret as "no sex before marriage" refers to all kinds of sex, not just penis-in-vagina intercourse.
But then again, people differ in their interpretation of every religious tradition's written corpora. (That said, I've never seen any document that purports to draw the distinction outlined above and support it with references from the Christian scriptures or tradition, so I don't actually know where people are getting the "Whacking each other off is OK but intercourse makes the Baby Jesus cry.")
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:31 AM on January 25, 2011 [7 favorites]
Short form of my tl;dr above: You and she are already having sex. Oral sex is sex. Manual sex is sex. That's why they have the word "sex" in them.
Intercourse is no more, and no less, a sin in the eyes of every single Christian denomination in the world than is oral sex and manual sex. I myself would not marry someone who was this inconsistent and illogical in her thinking.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:33 AM on January 25, 2011 [6 favorites]
Intercourse is no more, and no less, a sin in the eyes of every single Christian denomination in the world than is oral sex and manual sex. I myself would not marry someone who was this inconsistent and illogical in her thinking.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:33 AM on January 25, 2011 [6 favorites]
The two of you are already having sex. If the reason she refuses to have PIV sex before marriage is religion, she is either a hypocrite or profoundly confused. If, on the other hand, it is because she is potentially afraid of pregnancy it is another matter entirely.
What are her views on birth control? Would she expect the two of you not to use any after marriage? Do you have a clear idea of what would happen were she to become pregnant a) right now, or b) after marriage? Talking about these issues together might help, if you are as compatible as you say you are. Is she concerned about having a child before med school and therefore exponentially complicating her career plan? PIV is not a sacred act, but it is riskier than others even if birth control is used and, given what you have written, she might not want to use it at all.
posted by lydhre at 11:06 AM on January 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
What are her views on birth control? Would she expect the two of you not to use any after marriage? Do you have a clear idea of what would happen were she to become pregnant a) right now, or b) after marriage? Talking about these issues together might help, if you are as compatible as you say you are. Is she concerned about having a child before med school and therefore exponentially complicating her career plan? PIV is not a sacred act, but it is riskier than others even if birth control is used and, given what you have written, she might not want to use it at all.
posted by lydhre at 11:06 AM on January 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
Actually, they haven't. More women than men have, certainly, but pre-marital sex was one of those things you "didn't do" but everyone did anyway. Especially dudes.
That's a ridiculous statement. Of course "everyone" did not do it anyway. You yourself say "more women than men." I didn't say all people historically have waited nor even most. Just that people have done it for centuries, and that's indisputably true. It's physically possible to wait.
(Although, as I said in my first answer, I see no reason for it in this case.)
Regarding the discussion above about being a "technical" virgin: I don't think that people who do this (I did it, long ago) break it down rationally like "this is okay and this isn't." It's just that you're together, you want to be intimate, but there is one line in the sand (ew bad metaphor) that it's possible to maintain and still feel like you're on the right side of the church. I agree it's silly, but people find lots of workarounds for deeply-held beliefs in many areas, and it doesn't make them fundamentally irrational.
I mean in a sense (as I think has been noted above) Bill Clinton did it, and no one is saying he's at root an illogical person.
One more thing: there are different opinions of what sexual compatibility is and how essential it is to a relationship. I know what the (apparent) overwhelming opinion is about this on Mefi, but the world is bigger than Mefi, and millions of people who are not totally sexually compatible work it out (I'm one of those, too, and no, it's not easy, but it's not impossible).
I'm not making an argument either way, really, just saying the categorical statements above about certain things being necessary to a good relationship aren't really true. Relationships are formed and maintained, and grow or fail, in many different ways.
posted by torticat at 11:56 AM on January 25, 2011
That's a ridiculous statement. Of course "everyone" did not do it anyway. You yourself say "more women than men." I didn't say all people historically have waited nor even most. Just that people have done it for centuries, and that's indisputably true. It's physically possible to wait.
(Although, as I said in my first answer, I see no reason for it in this case.)
Regarding the discussion above about being a "technical" virgin: I don't think that people who do this (I did it, long ago) break it down rationally like "this is okay and this isn't." It's just that you're together, you want to be intimate, but there is one line in the sand (ew bad metaphor) that it's possible to maintain and still feel like you're on the right side of the church. I agree it's silly, but people find lots of workarounds for deeply-held beliefs in many areas, and it doesn't make them fundamentally irrational.
I mean in a sense (as I think has been noted above) Bill Clinton did it, and no one is saying he's at root an illogical person.
One more thing: there are different opinions of what sexual compatibility is and how essential it is to a relationship. I know what the (apparent) overwhelming opinion is about this on Mefi, but the world is bigger than Mefi, and millions of people who are not totally sexually compatible work it out (I'm one of those, too, and no, it's not easy, but it's not impossible).
I'm not making an argument either way, really, just saying the categorical statements above about certain things being necessary to a good relationship aren't really true. Relationships are formed and maintained, and grow or fail, in many different ways.
posted by torticat at 11:56 AM on January 25, 2011
You're already having sex. It just happens not to be intercourse.
So you aren't getting what you want, and she isn't really following her faith, after all.
I'm thinking that people like her get more, not less, conservative the older they get/when kids come into the picture. I'm thinking that unless you think you might want to change your mind vis a vis the atheism, or if not then be okay with being badgered in later life about your atheism either by her or any children you may have, then this relationship is NOT a good idea for either of you.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 12:26 PM on January 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
So you aren't getting what you want, and she isn't really following her faith, after all.
I'm thinking that people like her get more, not less, conservative the older they get/when kids come into the picture. I'm thinking that unless you think you might want to change your mind vis a vis the atheism, or if not then be okay with being badgered in later life about your atheism either by her or any children you may have, then this relationship is NOT a good idea for either of you.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 12:26 PM on January 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
Knowing the additional detail, I think that's sort of an odd technicality, but I'm not the woman in question. There's a point where all of that starts to look like religious rules lawyering, and your relationship, presumably, works on a higher critical standard than a Friday night D&D game.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 1:21 PM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 1:21 PM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
I agree it's silly, but people find lots of workarounds for deeply-held beliefs in many areas, and it doesn't make them fundamentally irrational.
I actually had, in my high-school years, what amounted to a tech-support call for technical virginity from someone I knew. They burnt through three justifications in rapid succession, all leading to "so it didn't COUNT, right? I'm still a virgin, right?"
They don't call it "rationalization" for nothing. It's an attempt to make an irrational or cognitively dissonant act seem rational under an existing deeply-held belief system. It doesn't mean anything about fundamental, all-encompassing irrationality-- just temporary irrationality on some topics caused by the attempt to rectify the distance between the things you do and the things you believe. (I think Annie Proulx makes a similar observation in Brokeback Mountain, actually.)
Your SO may be trying to rationalize the gap in her beliefs vs. her actions, OP, but I don't know if you're the person to have the discussion about whether or not that's logical, since you stand to directly benefit if she abandons the attempt.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 1:31 PM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
I actually had, in my high-school years, what amounted to a tech-support call for technical virginity from someone I knew. They burnt through three justifications in rapid succession, all leading to "so it didn't COUNT, right? I'm still a virgin, right?"
They don't call it "rationalization" for nothing. It's an attempt to make an irrational or cognitively dissonant act seem rational under an existing deeply-held belief system. It doesn't mean anything about fundamental, all-encompassing irrationality-- just temporary irrationality on some topics caused by the attempt to rectify the distance between the things you do and the things you believe. (I think Annie Proulx makes a similar observation in Brokeback Mountain, actually.)
Your SO may be trying to rationalize the gap in her beliefs vs. her actions, OP, but I don't know if you're the person to have the discussion about whether or not that's logical, since you stand to directly benefit if she abandons the attempt.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 1:31 PM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
I completely agree with you, fairytale. It is rationalization, that is all, and ridiculously legalistic. I would do things differently now. (Although I guess one rationale for remaining a "technical virgin" is that you can't get pregnant. It is, after all, what some might encourage high schoolers to do to avoid the possible lifelong results of intercourse. That's a pragmatic argument, though, not a moral one.)
FWIW, I was responding to sidhedevil's saying "I myself would not marry someone who was this inconsistent and illogical in her thinking." People do all kinds of irrational things, but it doesn't mean they should be written off for it.
posted by torticat at 2:02 PM on January 25, 2011
FWIW, I was responding to sidhedevil's saying "I myself would not marry someone who was this inconsistent and illogical in her thinking." People do all kinds of irrational things, but it doesn't mean they should be written off for it.
posted by torticat at 2:02 PM on January 25, 2011
FWIW, I was responding to sidhedevil's saying "I myself would not marry someone who was this inconsistent and illogical in her thinking." People do all kinds of irrational things, but it doesn't mean they should be written off for it.
I would not myself marry someone who was that inconsistent and illogical in her thinking. I did marry someone, and he is not that inconsistent and illogical in his thinking. How does that translate to "therefore, I write off the OP's girlfriend as a human being?"
Logic and consistency are deal-breakers to me; they may not be to the OP or to anyone else on this thread, which is why I used the words "I myself would not" rather than words like "You should not".
posted by Sidhedevil at 2:25 PM on January 25, 2011
I would not myself marry someone who was that inconsistent and illogical in her thinking. I did marry someone, and he is not that inconsistent and illogical in his thinking. How does that translate to "therefore, I write off the OP's girlfriend as a human being?"
Logic and consistency are deal-breakers to me; they may not be to the OP or to anyone else on this thread, which is why I used the words "I myself would not" rather than words like "You should not".
posted by Sidhedevil at 2:25 PM on January 25, 2011
Lucubrator: "She's also Indian which has more to do with her choice than being Catholic in itself. Right now, our sexual acts are limited to mutual masturbation/oral sex."
She finds sodomy acceptable?
I'm not sure I follow what being Indian has to do with. I'm pretty ignorant of Indian cultural norms, but I don't know of any culture that says OK to manual and oral, but prohibits vaginal. The only reason I can think to single out vaginal intercourse is anxiety about pregnancy, which is perfectly understandable. Is that the issue? If not, I have to say that I think her stance here is incredibly illogical.
posted by Cogito at 3:18 PM on January 25, 2011
She finds sodomy acceptable?
I'm not sure I follow what being Indian has to do with. I'm pretty ignorant of Indian cultural norms, but I don't know of any culture that says OK to manual and oral, but prohibits vaginal. The only reason I can think to single out vaginal intercourse is anxiety about pregnancy, which is perfectly understandable. Is that the issue? If not, I have to say that I think her stance here is incredibly illogical.
posted by Cogito at 3:18 PM on January 25, 2011
If it were more a "She's Indian" issue than a "She's Catholic" issue, it's more likely that she'd not be allowed to date, not be allowed to marry a white guy/have a love marriage, not be allowed to kiss/touch/hold hands, and/or not ever be allowed to have sex at all period no matter what adjective you put on the front. My guess is that this is much more a religious thing than a cultural thing. The "I can do whatever except PIV intercourse" is very stereotypically Cafeteria Catholic.
posted by Sara C. at 3:47 PM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Sara C. at 3:47 PM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
She wants you to wait four years.
Tell her you're willing to do it because you respect her deeply-held beliefs.
Also tell her you want any children you have in the future to be raised without religion.
How she responds will tell you what to do.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 5:45 PM on January 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
Tell her you're willing to do it because you respect her deeply-held beliefs.
Also tell her you want any children you have in the future to be raised without religion.
How she responds will tell you what to do.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 5:45 PM on January 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
I applaud you for being what seems like a really honorable person and understanding boyfriend. Sounds like though your gf is not "100%" Catholic and you are not "100%" atheist, given that you want to raise your kids Catholic. So both of you--like most everyone--are still trying to figure out your belief system and how to live your lives accordingly. An interesting time for sure. My instinct is to tell you to go ahead and get married, if all is as great as you say, but I also recognize your youth and your searching for self. I do not think given the urgent tone of your post, waiting four years is a viable option. Perhaps a compromise can be discussed, ie maybe let your gf get acclimated into med school the first year or so, and you all plan marriage soon after. Or...and I hate to say it but I will, maybe you all can take the proverbial "break" and you can sow your oats a little while she focuses on her career, and as they say "if it's meant to be, it will come back to you." Maybe in a few years, you all will find each other again, in a more mature state from both ends.
Good luck.
posted by GeniPalm at 6:04 PM on January 25, 2011
Good luck.
posted by GeniPalm at 6:04 PM on January 25, 2011
There's some unfortunate judgmentalism going on here about this woman we don't know. She's not hypocritcal or irrational. There is something different about PIV sex: it can get her pregnant. And if she feels that there's something emotionally or spiritually different about it, that's her feelings and her business.
Personally, I think it's less crazy-making to have these sexual outlets, rather than (say) stopping at kissing. But I certainly remember the temptation to keep going, especially once everything is kinda right there. Only the OP can judge if he can be happy with his options for years on end.
Given that there's also a cultural difference, there may be family pressures here too-- maybe it's more the family than the woman who's insisting on a late marriage?
posted by zompist at 6:38 PM on January 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
Personally, I think it's less crazy-making to have these sexual outlets, rather than (say) stopping at kissing. But I certainly remember the temptation to keep going, especially once everything is kinda right there. Only the OP can judge if he can be happy with his options for years on end.
Given that there's also a cultural difference, there may be family pressures here too-- maybe it's more the family than the woman who's insisting on a late marriage?
posted by zompist at 6:38 PM on January 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
I think it's BS that this girl holds all the cards in your relationship -- or at least the really important cards. That's one problem.
The other problem? You tell us that you're 'scarily compatible' and that you 'don't want to DTMFA, if possible' -- but nowhere in there do we hear that you two are deeply in love, that she's the best person you've ever met, that you'd do anything for her, that she's made your life better in a million ways and made you a better person, etc.
That's the only person I would -- maybe -- delay sex for four more years for.
To me, it doesn't sound like you're really in love (sounds like you've just found your 'match'). And if you don't feel that way after 1 year I don't think it's gonna happen.
Go be young, maybe fall in love for real . . . and for god's sake get yourself laid.
posted by imalaowai at 7:00 PM on January 25, 2011
The other problem? You tell us that you're 'scarily compatible' and that you 'don't want to DTMFA, if possible' -- but nowhere in there do we hear that you two are deeply in love, that she's the best person you've ever met, that you'd do anything for her, that she's made your life better in a million ways and made you a better person, etc.
That's the only person I would -- maybe -- delay sex for four more years for.
To me, it doesn't sound like you're really in love (sounds like you've just found your 'match'). And if you don't feel that way after 1 year I don't think it's gonna happen.
Go be young, maybe fall in love for real . . . and for god's sake get yourself laid.
posted by imalaowai at 7:00 PM on January 25, 2011
You were me a year ago, mostly.
I'm an atheist, and almost married a sort-of-Catholic. I had different but still deeply frustrating problems with the relationship that I happily ignored because of love. Since then I found that dating atheists is great, and there are a lot of wonderful people out there who I can happily pair-bond with instead.
What I'd tell my year-ago self is: Is she your first serious girlfriend? If so, you might not realize how much love is making you crazy. If you have a quiet voice in your head that constantly tells you something is wrong, you need to listen to that voice. You should seek expert counseling or other relationships instead of snuggling ever deeper into one you're not sure about. Tell her your secrets, share who you are and who you want to be, and follow your own dreams.
posted by sninctown at 7:17 PM on January 25, 2011
I'm an atheist, and almost married a sort-of-Catholic. I had different but still deeply frustrating problems with the relationship that I happily ignored because of love. Since then I found that dating atheists is great, and there are a lot of wonderful people out there who I can happily pair-bond with instead.
What I'd tell my year-ago self is: Is she your first serious girlfriend? If so, you might not realize how much love is making you crazy. If you have a quiet voice in your head that constantly tells you something is wrong, you need to listen to that voice. You should seek expert counseling or other relationships instead of snuggling ever deeper into one you're not sure about. Tell her your secrets, share who you are and who you want to be, and follow your own dreams.
posted by sninctown at 7:17 PM on January 25, 2011
I don't see why you don't just get married.
At this point, 23 is on the young side for marriage in some social circles, but only by a few years of the national average. Yeah, so you'll endure ZOMG YR SO YOUNG TO MARRY from some people... many of whom are going to get married themselves at the tremendously more ancient age of 26.
A year of serious dating before a proposal is likewise a little short by the standards of some social circles, but totally commonplace for others.
Note: Possibly "engaged" is even close enough for intercourse. It's not an uncommon compromise.
posted by desuetude at 8:09 PM on January 25, 2011
At this point, 23 is on the young side for marriage in some social circles, but only by a few years of the national average. Yeah, so you'll endure ZOMG YR SO YOUNG TO MARRY from some people... many of whom are going to get married themselves at the tremendously more ancient age of 26.
A year of serious dating before a proposal is likewise a little short by the standards of some social circles, but totally commonplace for others.
Note: Possibly "engaged" is even close enough for intercourse. It's not an uncommon compromise.
posted by desuetude at 8:09 PM on January 25, 2011
Response by poster: I've read through most of these comments twice, some of them thrice.
What I realized is that I don't know anything about her. I can't say what her rationalization was for mutual masturbation/oral sex. It was a pleasant surprise when it happened and we left it at that. I can't tell you what her stance is on contraception--before or after marriage. We've skirted the issue about growing old under unequal yokes, but we haven't really given the issue any more thought. After one year, I've not had a single adult conversation with her. Thank you all. I'll try to do some soul searching and have a long conversation with her.
posted by Lucubrator at 8:10 PM on January 25, 2011 [13 favorites]
What I realized is that I don't know anything about her. I can't say what her rationalization was for mutual masturbation/oral sex. It was a pleasant surprise when it happened and we left it at that. I can't tell you what her stance is on contraception--before or after marriage. We've skirted the issue about growing old under unequal yokes, but we haven't really given the issue any more thought. After one year, I've not had a single adult conversation with her. Thank you all. I'll try to do some soul searching and have a long conversation with her.
posted by Lucubrator at 8:10 PM on January 25, 2011 [13 favorites]
I think if nothing else comes of this but you start consistently having adult conversations with her, as you've said, then the thread will perhaps be one of the most successful I've seen on Ask MetaFilter....
Seriously, good luck figuring out how to proceed. I know you've gotten a lot of different advice and I know this must be tough. Kudos to you for thinking hard about this and resolving to have a solid conversation with her. I think that is the best possible thing to do.
posted by dubitable at 8:46 PM on January 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
Seriously, good luck figuring out how to proceed. I know you've gotten a lot of different advice and I know this must be tough. Kudos to you for thinking hard about this and resolving to have a solid conversation with her. I think that is the best possible thing to do.
posted by dubitable at 8:46 PM on January 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
Contraception both before and after marriage is super duper mega important. You need to have this talk with her ASAP.
Also, if she wants a Catholic church wedding, you have to convert. It takes like a year to do this and you have to actively go to classes and stuff.
I get the PIV vs. other sex thing because of pregnancy/birth control, so it's not necessarily that she's some kind of wacky hypocrite.
posted by elpea at 9:23 PM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Also, if she wants a Catholic church wedding, you have to convert. It takes like a year to do this and you have to actively go to classes and stuff.
I get the PIV vs. other sex thing because of pregnancy/birth control, so it's not necessarily that she's some kind of wacky hypocrite.
posted by elpea at 9:23 PM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
I am hardly a believer (or personal example) of abstinence before marriage, but I would like to point out that you've survived being a virgin so far!
I don't understand why you have to wait so long to get married. One year is certainly not too long to start talking about marriage, especially if you're "scarily compatible."
However, you are young, and it does sound like you haven't discussed some pretty important issues (family planning, etc.), so the two of you should get some thorough premarital couples counseling first.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:31 PM on January 25, 2011
I don't understand why you have to wait so long to get married. One year is certainly not too long to start talking about marriage, especially if you're "scarily compatible."
However, you are young, and it does sound like you haven't discussed some pretty important issues (family planning, etc.), so the two of you should get some thorough premarital couples counseling first.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:31 PM on January 25, 2011
Good for you for talking this over with her! However, remember that your girlfriend doesn't owe you any kind of sex act - I think it would be unproductive and disrespectful if you took the approach "everyone has sex, you are not normal if you don't, and I will leave you if you won't." Remember that it's her body and she gets to decide what to do with it at the end of the day.
posted by yarly at 6:05 AM on January 26, 2011
posted by yarly at 6:05 AM on January 26, 2011
Also, if she wants a Catholic church wedding, you have to convert.
I'm not sure this is true. I have two friends who I know not to be Catholic who recently got married in Catholic ceremonies to Catholic spouses and (unless they are keeping a HUGE secret from everyone) did not convert.
posted by Sara C. at 8:20 AM on January 26, 2011
I'm not sure this is true. I have two friends who I know not to be Catholic who recently got married in Catholic ceremonies to Catholic spouses and (unless they are keeping a HUGE secret from everyone) did not convert.
posted by Sara C. at 8:20 AM on January 26, 2011
yarly: "remember that your girlfriend doesn't owe you any kind of sex act - I think it would be unproductive and disrespectful if you took the approach "everyone has sex, you are not normal if you don't, and I will leave you if you won't." "
I totally agree. However, everyone deserves to feel sexually fulfilled regardless of what is "normal". If your relationship is monogamous, there is mutual responsibility to keep each other happy in that arena. If you're just not sexually compatible, that's a deal-breaker unless sex really isn't important to either of you.
posted by Cogito at 9:17 AM on January 26, 2011
I totally agree. However, everyone deserves to feel sexually fulfilled regardless of what is "normal". If your relationship is monogamous, there is mutual responsibility to keep each other happy in that arena. If you're just not sexually compatible, that's a deal-breaker unless sex really isn't important to either of you.
posted by Cogito at 9:17 AM on January 26, 2011
It is not necessary to convert to have a Catholic wedding. My father was Catholic, my mother was Presbyterian, and they had a Catholic wedding -- in 1951.
posted by Robert Angelo at 9:51 AM on January 26, 2011
posted by Robert Angelo at 9:51 AM on January 26, 2011
The being Indian part gives a whole different perspective to this. The cultural significance is that marriage is consummated only by having regular sex, but the rest is considered "heavy petting" and therefore acceptable.
Being a Catholic only amplifies this.
posted by theobserver at 9:59 AM on January 26, 2011 [2 favorites]
Being a Catholic only amplifies this.
posted by theobserver at 9:59 AM on January 26, 2011 [2 favorites]
theobserver: "The being Indian part gives a whole different perspective to this. The cultural significance is that marriage is consummated only by having regular sex, but the rest is considered "heavy petting" and therefore acceptable."
What are their feelings about anal sex? I'm being serious.
theobserver: "Being a Catholic only amplifies this."
What? I was thought the bible was anti-sodomy even for married folks, but maybe I was wrong. Maybe this could be a compromise for you guys.
posted by Cogito at 10:20 AM on January 26, 2011
What are their feelings about anal sex? I'm being serious.
theobserver: "Being a Catholic only amplifies this."
What? I was thought the bible was anti-sodomy even for married folks, but maybe I was wrong. Maybe this could be a compromise for you guys.
posted by Cogito at 10:20 AM on January 26, 2011
After one year, I've not had a single adult conversation with her.
Uh, don't you think this is a big red flag here?
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 11:21 AM on January 26, 2011 [3 favorites]
Uh, don't you think this is a big red flag here?
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 11:21 AM on January 26, 2011 [3 favorites]
@Cogito: Anal sex is taboo. Of course, unofficially, there are lots of people who do have it.
I was not talking about sodomy at all - the OP does not say anything about it. I was talking about the PIV sex before marriage.
posted by theobserver at 8:29 PM on January 26, 2011
I was not talking about sodomy at all - the OP does not say anything about it. I was talking about the PIV sex before marriage.
posted by theobserver at 8:29 PM on January 26, 2011
theobserver: "I was not talking about sodomy at all - the OP does not say anything about it. I was talking about the PIV sex before marriage."
Though it's probably not what people generally mean when the use the term, sodomy includes oral sex, which the OP said they are engaging in. This is actually relevant as a number of statutes use the term "sodomy" in their definition.
posted by Cogito at 10:59 AM on January 27, 2011
Though it's probably not what people generally mean when the use the term, sodomy includes oral sex, which the OP said they are engaging in. This is actually relevant as a number of statutes use the term "sodomy" in their definition.
posted by Cogito at 10:59 AM on January 27, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 9:19 PM on January 24, 2011 [18 favorites]