Would tear my heart seeing him make a bad career choice
January 21, 2011 12:06 PM Subscribe
How to help my nephew (un)choose his recently choosen career?
Asking for my sister. Her son has "decided" that he wants to study chemical engineering. The problem is that she is almost sure that he just took the decision based on pressure (from his Dad), and also because time was near to take the decision, and he honestly didn't have a clue. (I Know, most of us were there...)
Anyways, the kid spent the last year saying that he didnt know, and suddenly he knows? Another biggie here. The Dad is a chemical engineer. (Funny thing is he's never worked as such. never. ever). Dad claims that the analytical mind and troubleshooting skills that you learn by studying are enough to face anything. He's been trying to brainwash him to choose that, with those type of arguments, even if the mom (my sis) kept trying to prevent that.
Since they live in a very small farming town, there's close to none exposure to anything at all. Nearest university is like 2 hrs drive. The local high school's vocational/career orientation programs suck. big time.
How to help the kid change his mind, and expose him to other ideas? How to get him to be open to at least hear about Economics, or Social related studies, humanities?
Problem is also that the dad has given him the idea that engineers are the greatest individuals in society.
(please dont off track by discussing these ridiculous arguments….yeah, we know the dad has some issues there)
Need out of the box ideas here…like sending him off to work on a boat for a year….or something!
We understand he could read tons of great books out there, the problem is, he does not want to talk about it anymore…claims he really knows that's what he wants.
Asking for my sister. Her son has "decided" that he wants to study chemical engineering. The problem is that she is almost sure that he just took the decision based on pressure (from his Dad), and also because time was near to take the decision, and he honestly didn't have a clue. (I Know, most of us were there...)
Anyways, the kid spent the last year saying that he didnt know, and suddenly he knows? Another biggie here. The Dad is a chemical engineer. (Funny thing is he's never worked as such. never. ever). Dad claims that the analytical mind and troubleshooting skills that you learn by studying are enough to face anything. He's been trying to brainwash him to choose that, with those type of arguments, even if the mom (my sis) kept trying to prevent that.
Since they live in a very small farming town, there's close to none exposure to anything at all. Nearest university is like 2 hrs drive. The local high school's vocational/career orientation programs suck. big time.
How to help the kid change his mind, and expose him to other ideas? How to get him to be open to at least hear about Economics, or Social related studies, humanities?
Problem is also that the dad has given him the idea that engineers are the greatest individuals in society.
(please dont off track by discussing these ridiculous arguments….yeah, we know the dad has some issues there)
Need out of the box ideas here…like sending him off to work on a boat for a year….or something!
We understand he could read tons of great books out there, the problem is, he does not want to talk about it anymore…claims he really knows that's what he wants.
How to help the kid change his mind, and expose him to other ideas?
Let him attend first year at a mid-to-large institution.
I don't think you realize how terrible this post makes you look. Choosing Dad's profession after talking with Dad hardly constitutes 'brainwashing'. Have you considered perhaps respecting a young adult's decision and letting him live his life?
posted by mhoye at 12:13 PM on January 21, 2011 [25 favorites]
Let him attend first year at a mid-to-large institution.
I don't think you realize how terrible this post makes you look. Choosing Dad's profession after talking with Dad hardly constitutes 'brainwashing'. Have you considered perhaps respecting a young adult's decision and letting him live his life?
posted by mhoye at 12:13 PM on January 21, 2011 [25 favorites]
He probably wants to listen to you push him into the humanities about as much as he wanted to listen to his dad push him into chemical engineering. He was probably hoping to be able to stick with this now and not get hassled about it, and then once he actually started school he could change his major after a semester if he hated it.
In summary: because it's written in the "major" field on a college application does not make it a career choice.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 12:13 PM on January 21, 2011 [5 favorites]
In summary: because it's written in the "major" field on a college application does not make it a career choice.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 12:13 PM on January 21, 2011 [5 favorites]
Yeah, everyone chooses something when they start college, but it certainly doesn't have to stay that way. If he discovers he doesn't like that field, he can always change.
If he is saying that is what he has chosen and doesn't want to talk about it anymore, then why are you trying to change his mind?
posted by Grither at 12:13 PM on January 21, 2011
If he is saying that is what he has chosen and doesn't want to talk about it anymore, then why are you trying to change his mind?
posted by Grither at 12:13 PM on January 21, 2011
I should admit I am biased. I have two chemical engineers in my family. My sister has a masters in chem eng and has worked in the following places: a chocolate factory, a liquor plant and a place that makes flavours for sports energy drinks. She makes great money and for a while she got as much free chocolate or spirits as she could stomach. Again, I'm not sure why this seems like such a bad future.
posted by GuyZero at 12:14 PM on January 21, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 12:14 PM on January 21, 2011 [6 favorites]
I'm not sure how old this nephew is but I'm sorta getting the impression that he's maybe a high school senior and choosing a college for next year is what has prompted this discussion? In which case, I wouldn't worry. Most people change their majors five times prior to graduation and he will be exposed to lots of different ideas and topics in his gen ed requirements for college. But I also would say that chem engineering isn't exactly a bad fallback. It's a stable, lucrative field-he could do worse. So maybe just suggest that he not try to AP test out of all the gen ed requirements so that he'll get exposed to history, english, humanities, etc his first year or two of college and let him go on his merry way-he'll figure it out.
posted by supercapitalist at 12:15 PM on January 21, 2011
posted by supercapitalist at 12:15 PM on January 21, 2011
How old is he? I'm guessing high school?
Honestly, and this is coming from the queen of the humanities here, any serious direction is good at that age. If chemical engineering doesn't end up being fulfilling, he'll start to look around on his own.
posted by oinopaponton at 12:16 PM on January 21, 2011
Honestly, and this is coming from the queen of the humanities here, any serious direction is good at that age. If chemical engineering doesn't end up being fulfilling, he'll start to look around on his own.
posted by oinopaponton at 12:16 PM on January 21, 2011
As for bias, I started out in Computer Science, and switched to Economics. I do not regret the CS part of my schooling at all.
posted by Grither at 12:16 PM on January 21, 2011
posted by Grither at 12:16 PM on January 21, 2011
I am with GuyZero. Why is she trying to change his mind. Most parents would be very happy that he has a goal. Is his mother worried that he will away from home. She should let him try. If he fails then it is a lesson learned. She should support his choice, even if she thinks his dad is putting pressure on him. Let him go do his thing and learn what life is about. Both success and failure.
posted by JayRwv at 12:16 PM on January 21, 2011
posted by JayRwv at 12:16 PM on January 21, 2011
Anyways, the kid spent the last year saying that he didnt know, and suddenly he knows?
Well, when I was 18ish, I changed my mind about stuff at the drop of a hat all the time. When I was trying to decide what to major in, I wobbled all over the place until it dawned on me very suddenly that I wanted to be a history major, and I was, and I was happy with that.
How to help the kid change his mind, and expose him to other ideas? How to get him to be open to at least hear about Economics, or Social related studies, humanities?
He will get this in college, because even as a CE major, he'll have to take some gen ed classes, and he'll make friends who take an awesome class in [awesome thing] and won't be able to shut up about it.
You're not going to change his mind by pushing him. They're stubborn at that age. Let him find his way. And being a CE or any kind of E is hardly the worst thing in the world - he might discover he really loves it.
posted by rtha at 12:16 PM on January 21, 2011
Well, when I was 18ish, I changed my mind about stuff at the drop of a hat all the time. When I was trying to decide what to major in, I wobbled all over the place until it dawned on me very suddenly that I wanted to be a history major, and I was, and I was happy with that.
How to help the kid change his mind, and expose him to other ideas? How to get him to be open to at least hear about Economics, or Social related studies, humanities?
He will get this in college, because even as a CE major, he'll have to take some gen ed classes, and he'll make friends who take an awesome class in [awesome thing] and won't be able to shut up about it.
You're not going to change his mind by pushing him. They're stubborn at that age. Let him find his way. And being a CE or any kind of E is hardly the worst thing in the world - he might discover he really loves it.
posted by rtha at 12:16 PM on January 21, 2011
This may or may not be what you're looking for, but here are a few points to consider.
-It is (usually) extraordinarily easy for freshman to change majors. Colleges expect this sort of thing. In fact, a lot of schools force incoming freshman to remain "undeclared" for a certain amount of time. Even within engineering, they will likely not ask him to choose a concentration until second year.
-Once he goes off to college, i.e. away from his parents' pressures, he will make up his own mind.
-Chemical engineering is HARD. The ChemE's that I knew were always the hardest working group at school. If he's not motivated enough, the pile of work will pretty quickly encourage him to think of a different major.
-ANY degree will get you a certain leg up in the job search, no matter what he wants to ultimately do. An engineering degree will get him an extra leg up for any job requiring math skills, computer skills, program management, etc.
So from an "I don't know what I want to do" perspective, it's not a terrible jumping-off place. If you want to encourage growth in other areas, though, I would try to steer him towards larger universities that have engineering schools. That way, if/when he changes his mind he can have a wider range of other things to study. Let him read and study and enjoy what he wants for now, and something will plant a bug that will grow when he is more independent away at school.
Seriously, not many people get jobs related to the degrees they earned.
posted by backseatpilot at 12:18 PM on January 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
-It is (usually) extraordinarily easy for freshman to change majors. Colleges expect this sort of thing. In fact, a lot of schools force incoming freshman to remain "undeclared" for a certain amount of time. Even within engineering, they will likely not ask him to choose a concentration until second year.
-Once he goes off to college, i.e. away from his parents' pressures, he will make up his own mind.
-Chemical engineering is HARD. The ChemE's that I knew were always the hardest working group at school. If he's not motivated enough, the pile of work will pretty quickly encourage him to think of a different major.
-ANY degree will get you a certain leg up in the job search, no matter what he wants to ultimately do. An engineering degree will get him an extra leg up for any job requiring math skills, computer skills, program management, etc.
So from an "I don't know what I want to do" perspective, it's not a terrible jumping-off place. If you want to encourage growth in other areas, though, I would try to steer him towards larger universities that have engineering schools. That way, if/when he changes his mind he can have a wider range of other things to study. Let him read and study and enjoy what he wants for now, and something will plant a bug that will grow when he is more independent away at school.
Seriously, not many people get jobs related to the degrees they earned.
posted by backseatpilot at 12:18 PM on January 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
First, everyone else is right. He has plenty of time to change his mind, and there's really no harm in starting off aiming a specific direction and doing a course change later if he wants.
But, second, if you really want to be helpful, sending him a copy of "Now What? The Young Person's Guide to Choosing the Perfect Career" could really make a difference. Most people kind of feel their way into jobs, or take whatever comes along. Now is a good time to start thinking carefully about options--and he has a really analytic mind, he might really enjoy doing the exercises in the book to help focus on a good career fit.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 12:21 PM on January 21, 2011
But, second, if you really want to be helpful, sending him a copy of "Now What? The Young Person's Guide to Choosing the Perfect Career" could really make a difference. Most people kind of feel their way into jobs, or take whatever comes along. Now is a good time to start thinking carefully about options--and he has a really analytic mind, he might really enjoy doing the exercises in the book to help focus on a good career fit.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 12:21 PM on January 21, 2011
I guess I should also mention that I'm an engineer, my father is an engineer, and his father was an engineer. My dad tried to get me into finance, so you can see how well that worked out.
posted by backseatpilot at 12:21 PM on January 21, 2011
posted by backseatpilot at 12:21 PM on January 21, 2011
He's not making a career choice. He's picking a college major. In high school. The chance of him actually graduating with a degree in chemical engineering is low. Many people, perhaps most people, switch majors at least once in college. I mean, really, this sounds like a complete non-problem to me.
If he's not actually that interested in it or has no aptitude in it then I'm sure the first year of classes will tell him pretty quickly that he should pick another major.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 12:21 PM on January 21, 2011
If he's not actually that interested in it or has no aptitude in it then I'm sure the first year of classes will tell him pretty quickly that he should pick another major.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 12:21 PM on January 21, 2011
I'm an engineer and I went to an all-engineering college. Out of my class we have plenty of engineers, as well as research scientists, startup entrepreneurs, MBAs, medical doctors, lawyers, and even a guy who went to divinity school to become a minister. I reject the idea that he is somehow limiting himself by wanting to study engineering.
He may change his mind, either out of engineering completely or into a different engineering discipline that's more broadly applicable. When he goes to college he'll figure it out. Starting in engineering won't hurt him -- he'll get a broad foundation of math and science that will be applicable lots of places. His introductory calculus and statistics courses, for example, would serve him well if he went the economics route eventually. And for what it's worth, it is much harder for him to switch IN to engineering from something else than it is to switch OUT into some other field.
Can you help us understand why you think this is a problem? Is it specifically engineering that you/your sister are unhappy about? Or is it simply the way in which he made his decision? Depending on your answer to this we'll have different responses. If it's the former, well, you have my response above. If it's the latter, then I think the right thing to do is wait, and make sure you encourage him to go to a school that offers a wide range of majors, not an engineering-only school.
Signed, An Engineer, One Of The Greatest Individuals in Society
posted by olinerd at 12:24 PM on January 21, 2011 [5 favorites]
He may change his mind, either out of engineering completely or into a different engineering discipline that's more broadly applicable. When he goes to college he'll figure it out. Starting in engineering won't hurt him -- he'll get a broad foundation of math and science that will be applicable lots of places. His introductory calculus and statistics courses, for example, would serve him well if he went the economics route eventually. And for what it's worth, it is much harder for him to switch IN to engineering from something else than it is to switch OUT into some other field.
Can you help us understand why you think this is a problem? Is it specifically engineering that you/your sister are unhappy about? Or is it simply the way in which he made his decision? Depending on your answer to this we'll have different responses. If it's the former, well, you have my response above. If it's the latter, then I think the right thing to do is wait, and make sure you encourage him to go to a school that offers a wide range of majors, not an engineering-only school.
Signed, An Engineer, One Of The Greatest Individuals in Society
posted by olinerd at 12:24 PM on January 21, 2011 [5 favorites]
I appreciate the fact that you care about your nephew and that you don't want him pigeonholed, but at the same time, you are being just as paternalistic as his father.
He has made his choice. If he decides that he truly can't stand chemical engineering, then he can change his major or change his career or go to grad school if/when he gets another ambition.
posted by Sticherbeast at 12:25 PM on January 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
He has made his choice. If he decides that he truly can't stand chemical engineering, then he can change his major or change his career or go to grad school if/when he gets another ambition.
posted by Sticherbeast at 12:25 PM on January 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
I work with a lot of Chemical Engineers and Chemical Engineering students at a mid-sized PhD granting institution. The students I know are, within the bounds of undergraduate averages, pretty normal. If your nephew does not like the program, the work, or anything, he will have plenty of time to change. If he does like it, well, there are way worse careers than Chemical Engineering.
What I would do to support the kid is to make sure that he takes advantage of the general education offerings at his school to get some breadth. If he ditches ChemE, he will have taken care of some of his requirements; if he decides engineering is for him. then he will have a better range of communication skills (and topics of conversation) that will help him get jobs and interact with people. All of which are good.
As far as how to get him to change his mind, I don't honestly think that there is a way -- your sister is far more likely to alienate her son than to make him "see the light." If she is supportive and helpful, however, she may be able to open his eyes to what the Humanities and Social Sciences has to offer and help offset the siloing that sometimes afflicts STEM students.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:28 PM on January 21, 2011
What I would do to support the kid is to make sure that he takes advantage of the general education offerings at his school to get some breadth. If he ditches ChemE, he will have taken care of some of his requirements; if he decides engineering is for him. then he will have a better range of communication skills (and topics of conversation) that will help him get jobs and interact with people. All of which are good.
As far as how to get him to change his mind, I don't honestly think that there is a way -- your sister is far more likely to alienate her son than to make him "see the light." If she is supportive and helpful, however, she may be able to open his eyes to what the Humanities and Social Sciences has to offer and help offset the siloing that sometimes afflicts STEM students.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:28 PM on January 21, 2011
I honestly thought this question was going to be about a kid who wanted to say, major in philosophy and music or drop out and become a roadie for a band or something. But instead, it's about a kid who has *tentatively* decided to major in something that has actual decent career prospects, and you/your sister want him to major in the humanities? Really? I'm a junior at a liberal arts college where I feel like I've gotten a great education, but I'm scared of facing the current job market with solely "soft" skills. I sort of wish I had an aptitude for something that was more skill-based and pre-professional, like my engineering major friends.
That said, a friend of mine was in a situation very similar to your nephew- her ChemE father pressured her from indecision/maybe majoring in linguistics into doing ChemE. She ended up not liking it, and the nature of the engineering program she's in made it really hard to take time off from the major or switch into something else.
That's just one person's experience, of course- we don't really know what your nephew actually likes. Does he enjoy math and science, or is he obviously not cut out for engineering? What was he throwing around before he decided on ChemE? Maybe you should let him make his own mistakes and take responsibility for his decisions, just like every other college student ever. And maybe encourage him to look at schools that are strong in ChemE and other things, and have somewhat flexible majors and let him postpone declaring, to safeguard him from being screwed in case he hates ChemE.
posted by MadamM at 12:35 PM on January 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
That said, a friend of mine was in a situation very similar to your nephew- her ChemE father pressured her from indecision/maybe majoring in linguistics into doing ChemE. She ended up not liking it, and the nature of the engineering program she's in made it really hard to take time off from the major or switch into something else.
That's just one person's experience, of course- we don't really know what your nephew actually likes. Does he enjoy math and science, or is he obviously not cut out for engineering? What was he throwing around before he decided on ChemE? Maybe you should let him make his own mistakes and take responsibility for his decisions, just like every other college student ever. And maybe encourage him to look at schools that are strong in ChemE and other things, and have somewhat flexible majors and let him postpone declaring, to safeguard him from being screwed in case he hates ChemE.
posted by MadamM at 12:35 PM on January 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
From the subject I figured he was joining the military or something and you didn't want him to suffer grievous bodily harm. This is nothing! Maybe he'll like chemical engineering and stick with it. Maybe he'll decide it's too impersonal/boring/hard/whatever, but will like his Spanish/English/Biology/Calculus/History of Rock and Roll class and head off in that direction. Changing majors is common. I was a Biochem major for two years, planning on med school or vet school, but decided I wouldn't like dealing with the families of the patients or the long hours and switched to straight biology since I liked genetics, animal behavior, and ecology.
Honestly, I don't see why you would want to push him from a major that will actually yield good jobs into social studies or humanities, which are majors likely to lead into low paying or completely unrelated jobs. If he's passionate about those, sure, encourage him, but otherwise it seems oddly self-serving of either you or sister (a bit hard to tell how much of this is your opinion and how much is hers) to push him in this direction.
posted by Logic Sheep at 12:35 PM on January 21, 2011
Honestly, I don't see why you would want to push him from a major that will actually yield good jobs into social studies or humanities, which are majors likely to lead into low paying or completely unrelated jobs. If he's passionate about those, sure, encourage him, but otherwise it seems oddly self-serving of either you or sister (a bit hard to tell how much of this is your opinion and how much is hers) to push him in this direction.
posted by Logic Sheep at 12:35 PM on January 21, 2011
Need out of the box ideas here…like sending him off to work on a boat for a year….or something!
We understand he could read tons of great books out there, the problem is, he does not want to talk about it anymore…claims he really knows that's what he wants.
Does he want to work on a boat for a year?
You've said that he doesn't know what he wants to do, and may not actually want to be a Chemical Engineer. That's fine, many undergrads do not end up getting a degree in what they originally went to school for. But why do you want to change his mind? You haven't said anything like "He's not interested in math" or "He's always been more interested in literature" that would suggest that Chemical Engineering is a bad choice for him. If he says that Chemical Engineering is what he wants to do, what makes you think that you know better?
posted by burnmp3s at 12:36 PM on January 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
We understand he could read tons of great books out there, the problem is, he does not want to talk about it anymore…claims he really knows that's what he wants.
Does he want to work on a boat for a year?
You've said that he doesn't know what he wants to do, and may not actually want to be a Chemical Engineer. That's fine, many undergrads do not end up getting a degree in what they originally went to school for. But why do you want to change his mind? You haven't said anything like "He's not interested in math" or "He's always been more interested in literature" that would suggest that Chemical Engineering is a bad choice for him. If he says that Chemical Engineering is what he wants to do, what makes you think that you know better?
posted by burnmp3s at 12:36 PM on January 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
Dad claims that the analytical mind and troubleshooting skills that you learn by studying are enough to face anything.
The Dad is actually spot on. I'm a humanities person myself, but have several friends who majored in ChemE, and they have indeed gone on to take their skills successfully to a number of different professions. Two are lawyers working in environmental law with very successful careers that they enjoy. ChemE is one of the hardest programs. If your nephew doesn't enjoy it, he'll switch to something else quickly enough, and if he does enjoy it, then he's got a lucrative, interesting career ahead of him.
posted by MsMolly at 12:36 PM on January 21, 2011
The Dad is actually spot on. I'm a humanities person myself, but have several friends who majored in ChemE, and they have indeed gone on to take their skills successfully to a number of different professions. Two are lawyers working in environmental law with very successful careers that they enjoy. ChemE is one of the hardest programs. If your nephew doesn't enjoy it, he'll switch to something else quickly enough, and if he does enjoy it, then he's got a lucrative, interesting career ahead of him.
posted by MsMolly at 12:36 PM on January 21, 2011
You're getting piled on and rightfully so. You want to convince him to study something other than engineering, first come up with a valid argument as to why he should.
Dad's kind of right in that the quantitative background you get in engineering is incredibly valuable. Scientific numeracy and analytical thinking skills allow you to pivot into all kinds of fields, including economics and social sciences, should you show an interest. This kind of education opens a huge door.
It is true though that many engineers come out of their programs with a narrow technical focus, and I can understand a desire to ensure a broader education for your sister's son. He can take humanities and liberal arts courses as part of his education -- in fact he'll be required to, to some extent -- but he'll have to follow his own interests here, and there's no guarantee anything will 'stick'. My recommendation would be to advocate for engineering programs with a strong liberal arts component. These are rare, but one in particular springs to mind: Harvey Mudd. There are likely others.
posted by PercussivePaul at 12:41 PM on January 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
Dad's kind of right in that the quantitative background you get in engineering is incredibly valuable. Scientific numeracy and analytical thinking skills allow you to pivot into all kinds of fields, including economics and social sciences, should you show an interest. This kind of education opens a huge door.
It is true though that many engineers come out of their programs with a narrow technical focus, and I can understand a desire to ensure a broader education for your sister's son. He can take humanities and liberal arts courses as part of his education -- in fact he'll be required to, to some extent -- but he'll have to follow his own interests here, and there's no guarantee anything will 'stick'. My recommendation would be to advocate for engineering programs with a strong liberal arts component. These are rare, but one in particular springs to mind: Harvey Mudd. There are likely others.
posted by PercussivePaul at 12:41 PM on January 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Guys, a bit of clarification here. I am an engineer. Nothing wrong with that.
Also agree that the analytical mindset has been a huge asset for me.
I said: "asking on behalf of my sister". She, as a caring mom, is concerned
in the way the decision was made. She's not against engineering at all.
She just thinks somehow the kid is not really sure, and that he is caving into pressure
to decide.
posted by theKik at 12:44 PM on January 21, 2011
Also agree that the analytical mindset has been a huge asset for me.
I said: "asking on behalf of my sister". She, as a caring mom, is concerned
in the way the decision was made. She's not against engineering at all.
She just thinks somehow the kid is not really sure, and that he is caving into pressure
to decide.
posted by theKik at 12:44 PM on January 21, 2011
I know a lot of people who studied engineering in college and then decided to do something else with their life post-degree. They are all generally doing well.
I also know people who thought they wanted to study engineering, did a semester or so, realized they didn't like it (or didn't have what it took, or whatever), and changed to something else. Those people are also generally doing well.
You don't have to decide what your eventual career will be when you decide what to study in college.
The kid will decide this stuff for himself sooner or later. Neither his father or his mother, much less an aunt or uncle, is going to have any say over what he decides.
Most people I know who thought as teenagers that they wanted to do X (including myself!) got to college, saw all the different things that people studied, took classes in a variety of areas*, etc. and made that decision based on seeing the available options and experimenting with different things. I started out as a theatre major, discovered that I was more interested in film and media studies than performance, and then in the end I wound up as an anthropology major. So, you know.
Your nephew should definitely factor in university, even if it's two hours away. That's not an unusual distance to move to get a degree, and it's pretty impossible to do anything above manual labor these days without a college degree. Whether you're interested in engineering or ethnomusicology.
*This is going to be required no matter what his major is. If he's engineering he'll probably have more required science/math stuff than humanities, but he will have to take a little of everything. I definitely know people who assumed they'd be in the sciences who went to college and discovered a love of history or political science and ended up going that way.
posted by Sara C. at 12:46 PM on January 21, 2011
I also know people who thought they wanted to study engineering, did a semester or so, realized they didn't like it (or didn't have what it took, or whatever), and changed to something else. Those people are also generally doing well.
You don't have to decide what your eventual career will be when you decide what to study in college.
The kid will decide this stuff for himself sooner or later. Neither his father or his mother, much less an aunt or uncle, is going to have any say over what he decides.
Most people I know who thought as teenagers that they wanted to do X (including myself!) got to college, saw all the different things that people studied, took classes in a variety of areas*, etc. and made that decision based on seeing the available options and experimenting with different things. I started out as a theatre major, discovered that I was more interested in film and media studies than performance, and then in the end I wound up as an anthropology major. So, you know.
Your nephew should definitely factor in university, even if it's two hours away. That's not an unusual distance to move to get a degree, and it's pretty impossible to do anything above manual labor these days without a college degree. Whether you're interested in engineering or ethnomusicology.
*This is going to be required no matter what his major is. If he's engineering he'll probably have more required science/math stuff than humanities, but he will have to take a little of everything. I definitely know people who assumed they'd be in the sciences who went to college and discovered a love of history or political science and ended up going that way.
posted by Sara C. at 12:46 PM on January 21, 2011
Well, there probably is a real pressure to decide. Fortunately, the decision has very little impact on his future, so the mom shouldn't be concerned at all. Just tell him when he makes his way to college that there's nothing wrong with switching majors if his interests change!
posted by Grither at 12:47 PM on January 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Grither at 12:47 PM on January 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
She just thinks somehow the kid is not really sure, and that he is caving into pressure to decide.
That's a valid concern, but extra pressure in the other direction isn't going to help the problem. If he wants to do engineering, then let him try it out at a university where he can take other classes and, if need be, switch majors, if that's what he wants to do.
Engage him in discussion and interests of things outside engineering so that he doesn't become one of those stereotypical engineers who only understands his/her immediate area. My father was a mechanical engineer, but he was also a pretty well-rounded nerd with many interests. He also loved his job. If he ever expresses dissatisfaction with his program, always let him know that he can always focus on another area.
On the other hand, if he really does want to follow in his father's footsteps, then so what? It's what he wants to do.
posted by Sticherbeast at 12:49 PM on January 21, 2011
That's a valid concern, but extra pressure in the other direction isn't going to help the problem. If he wants to do engineering, then let him try it out at a university where he can take other classes and, if need be, switch majors, if that's what he wants to do.
Engage him in discussion and interests of things outside engineering so that he doesn't become one of those stereotypical engineers who only understands his/her immediate area. My father was a mechanical engineer, but he was also a pretty well-rounded nerd with many interests. He also loved his job. If he ever expresses dissatisfaction with his program, always let him know that he can always focus on another area.
On the other hand, if he really does want to follow in his father's footsteps, then so what? It's what he wants to do.
posted by Sticherbeast at 12:49 PM on January 21, 2011
Just tell him when he makes his way to college that there's nothing wrong with switching majors if his interests change!
This is a really good point. Both of my parents decided on a college major as high school students (and both of them have always seemed to me to have known What They Were Meant To Do pretty much from childhood). When and where they went to school, you majored in nursing or education or engineering or something that put you on a direct trajectory for a professional grad school. And when you picked your major at 17, that was basically the same as picking your future career.
This meant they were pretty ill-equipped to guide me through the upper stages of high school and into college. Because I was the kid who didn't know exactly what I wanted to do, or even what my options were. I definitely felt, as a freshman in college, that it would be a bad thing to change majors. That it would put me behind, or that it meant I wasn't focused enough. That not knowing what you wanted to do was the same as failure.
If you guys do anything to influence his choice of major or eventual career path, let it be that. Help him understand that it's OK to experiment, and there's nothing wrong with changing your mind.
posted by Sara C. at 1:04 PM on January 21, 2011
This is a really good point. Both of my parents decided on a college major as high school students (and both of them have always seemed to me to have known What They Were Meant To Do pretty much from childhood). When and where they went to school, you majored in nursing or education or engineering or something that put you on a direct trajectory for a professional grad school. And when you picked your major at 17, that was basically the same as picking your future career.
This meant they were pretty ill-equipped to guide me through the upper stages of high school and into college. Because I was the kid who didn't know exactly what I wanted to do, or even what my options were. I definitely felt, as a freshman in college, that it would be a bad thing to change majors. That it would put me behind, or that it meant I wasn't focused enough. That not knowing what you wanted to do was the same as failure.
If you guys do anything to influence his choice of major or eventual career path, let it be that. Help him understand that it's OK to experiment, and there's nothing wrong with changing your mind.
posted by Sara C. at 1:04 PM on January 21, 2011
Best answer: I don't have advice for alternatives, but some thoughts on helping him think through his decision to go Chem E.
The course work for a B.S. in Chem E is so set it is very easy to predict 90% of the classes he will take in his 4 years. Go to the Chem E department website or to the general catalog of the colleges he is interested in and plot out year by year, semester by semester what classes he would take. (I have done this with my kids as they consider college majors) if that 4 years looks pretty good to him then that's an indication that he might be on the right track.
Consider what classes he enjoyed in high school - did he like chemistry? If not Chem E probably isn't the way to go. Did he like math enough to handle calculus? He'll need two full years of advanced math. Did he like physics? There's a lot of thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, and mass transfer classes ahead of him. If it's yes to those he's on the right track.
Then to expand his horizons he might look into some related fields - materials science, environmental science, chemistry, soil science at an agricultural program (here in California we have schools with viticulture programs which isn't far off from chemical engineering).
Then maybe for a comparison - encourage him to do the same type of review with an Economics major, and a Fine arts major.
The other thing to encourage him to do if he's still in high school is to go on some college visits.
I'm a Chemical Engineering manager now - it's not for everyone, but it's not a bad gig. Hopefully if that's the path he chooses he won't bring too much shame on the family.
posted by Edward L at 1:16 PM on January 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
The course work for a B.S. in Chem E is so set it is very easy to predict 90% of the classes he will take in his 4 years. Go to the Chem E department website or to the general catalog of the colleges he is interested in and plot out year by year, semester by semester what classes he would take. (I have done this with my kids as they consider college majors) if that 4 years looks pretty good to him then that's an indication that he might be on the right track.
Consider what classes he enjoyed in high school - did he like chemistry? If not Chem E probably isn't the way to go. Did he like math enough to handle calculus? He'll need two full years of advanced math. Did he like physics? There's a lot of thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, and mass transfer classes ahead of him. If it's yes to those he's on the right track.
Then to expand his horizons he might look into some related fields - materials science, environmental science, chemistry, soil science at an agricultural program (here in California we have schools with viticulture programs which isn't far off from chemical engineering).
Then maybe for a comparison - encourage him to do the same type of review with an Economics major, and a Fine arts major.
The other thing to encourage him to do if he's still in high school is to go on some college visits.
I'm a Chemical Engineering manager now - it's not for everyone, but it's not a bad gig. Hopefully if that's the path he chooses he won't bring too much shame on the family.
posted by Edward L at 1:16 PM on January 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
She just thinks somehow the kid is not really sure, and that he is caving into pressure to decide.
Trying to get him to cave in to pressure to decide something else is not the correct remedy, then.
He has NOT made a decision for the rest of his life. He's made a decision for now -- a decision that can change and may even be likely to change. I think the best advice for your sister is to A) let her son know that if he finds he doesn't like Chem Engineering, he is always free to change his major and that she'll support him, and B) suggest (gently) that she find a way to sit with the fact that her son is taking some first steps into young adulthood by making decisions that she may not always be comfortable with.
As others have said, he is not making some foolhardy, dangerous choice; he is tentatively trying on a college major (and a very responsible one, at that). If he finds he's truly interested in it, he'll stick with it. If he finds he doesn't, he has the option to move on to something else. But nothing is set in stone, and it is not for your sister to control.
posted by scody at 1:16 PM on January 21, 2011
Trying to get him to cave in to pressure to decide something else is not the correct remedy, then.
He has NOT made a decision for the rest of his life. He's made a decision for now -- a decision that can change and may even be likely to change. I think the best advice for your sister is to A) let her son know that if he finds he doesn't like Chem Engineering, he is always free to change his major and that she'll support him, and B) suggest (gently) that she find a way to sit with the fact that her son is taking some first steps into young adulthood by making decisions that she may not always be comfortable with.
As others have said, he is not making some foolhardy, dangerous choice; he is tentatively trying on a college major (and a very responsible one, at that). If he finds he's truly interested in it, he'll stick with it. If he finds he doesn't, he has the option to move on to something else. But nothing is set in stone, and it is not for your sister to control.
posted by scody at 1:16 PM on January 21, 2011
He's not going to be locked into chemical engineering as a career. Lots of people with this degree do tons of stuff that's unrelated. It's good that he decided on a challenging major, frankly, because it will teach him to put in effort. Afterwards, he can do tons of different stuff and probably be able to afford to change careers should he want to.
Anyway, how do you know he may not end up passionate about chemical engineering? He has to go and try to learn it before he can say it's not for him.
posted by anniecat at 1:17 PM on January 21, 2011
Anyway, how do you know he may not end up passionate about chemical engineering? He has to go and try to learn it before he can say it's not for him.
posted by anniecat at 1:17 PM on January 21, 2011
Best answer: he does not want to talk about it anymore…claims he really knows that's what he wants.
This leads me to believe that Mom has been almost as heavy-handed as Dad in pressuring him about this major. Instead of doing something bizarre like sending him on a boat for a year, how about this. Mom says, "I'm sorry I pressured you so much about your choice to study chemical engineering, and I'm not going to argue with you about it anymore. What I want for you is an education and a career in a field or fields you really enjoy. I want you to be happy and successful with whatever path you choose. If chemical engineering is what you want, that's fantastic and I'll support you 100%. If later on, you decide to do something else and want to switch majors or switch careers, I will also support you 100%. What I won't do is pressure you in either direction, because it's your choice."
By doing this, Mom sets herself up as someone her son can turn to if he ends up realizing that chemical engineering isn't for him. Giving up on pressuring a high schooler about his college major isn't really ceding much ground--as others have pointed out, it's fairly easy to switch majors and common for freshmen to choose something entirely different from the subject they thought they'd study. Establishing a more mature, respectful relationship with a soon-to-be adult son creates room for him to come back to her and ask for advice or support without fear that she'll pressure him to do something just because it's what she would do.
posted by Meg_Murry at 1:22 PM on January 21, 2011 [9 favorites]
This leads me to believe that Mom has been almost as heavy-handed as Dad in pressuring him about this major. Instead of doing something bizarre like sending him on a boat for a year, how about this. Mom says, "I'm sorry I pressured you so much about your choice to study chemical engineering, and I'm not going to argue with you about it anymore. What I want for you is an education and a career in a field or fields you really enjoy. I want you to be happy and successful with whatever path you choose. If chemical engineering is what you want, that's fantastic and I'll support you 100%. If later on, you decide to do something else and want to switch majors or switch careers, I will also support you 100%. What I won't do is pressure you in either direction, because it's your choice."
By doing this, Mom sets herself up as someone her son can turn to if he ends up realizing that chemical engineering isn't for him. Giving up on pressuring a high schooler about his college major isn't really ceding much ground--as others have pointed out, it's fairly easy to switch majors and common for freshmen to choose something entirely different from the subject they thought they'd study. Establishing a more mature, respectful relationship with a soon-to-be adult son creates room for him to come back to her and ask for advice or support without fear that she'll pressure him to do something just because it's what she would do.
posted by Meg_Murry at 1:22 PM on January 21, 2011 [9 favorites]
She just thinks somehow the kid is not really sure, and that he is caving into pressure to decide.
So let us use a non-statistical sample of people from my 1st year dorm.
One guy in civil engineering later dropped out of that program in 2nd year and became a russian history major.
One guy in civil engineering stayed in civil eng but then at some point after graduation moved to Uganda, married a Ugandan woman and now works for an NGO. (and this was a guy from small-town Ontario whose ambitions in 1st year were pretty much just to drink and watch Monty Python).
And I got my eng degree and have been working professionally in marketing or sales most of my life.
As many others have said, people switch majors all the time. Who cares? Saying this kids is "brainwashed" by his Dad is tautological. We're all brainwashed by our parents. They've been doing it our entire lives. At some point each of us moves past it. if Amy Chua's kids can stop playing piano I'm sure this kid will figure out what his heart yearns for in godo time.
posted by GuyZero at 1:34 PM on January 21, 2011
So let us use a non-statistical sample of people from my 1st year dorm.
One guy in civil engineering later dropped out of that program in 2nd year and became a russian history major.
One guy in civil engineering stayed in civil eng but then at some point after graduation moved to Uganda, married a Ugandan woman and now works for an NGO. (and this was a guy from small-town Ontario whose ambitions in 1st year were pretty much just to drink and watch Monty Python).
And I got my eng degree and have been working professionally in marketing or sales most of my life.
As many others have said, people switch majors all the time. Who cares? Saying this kids is "brainwashed" by his Dad is tautological. We're all brainwashed by our parents. They've been doing it our entire lives. At some point each of us moves past it. if Amy Chua's kids can stop playing piano I'm sure this kid will figure out what his heart yearns for in godo time.
posted by GuyZero at 1:34 PM on January 21, 2011
Agreed with everything said above. He's not choosing his life, he's declaring a major...
That being said, the best mom can do at this point is to simply encourage him to explore and let him know that there is no pressure, he is free to be what he chooses, and she'll be proud whether he's doing chemical engineering or russian history or dance. It seems near insane to even consider forcing him to work on a ship just so he won't study chemical engineering. If mom was truly worried about dad brainwashing the boy, she should've started working on that years ago, by speaking with the father and encouraging her son to pursue a variety of interests.
At this point, the best she can do is maybe speak to the father about laying off the pressure (if there is any pressure), and be supportive of her son. He'll make his own decisions in time.
posted by lacedcoffee at 2:04 PM on January 21, 2011
That being said, the best mom can do at this point is to simply encourage him to explore and let him know that there is no pressure, he is free to be what he chooses, and she'll be proud whether he's doing chemical engineering or russian history or dance. It seems near insane to even consider forcing him to work on a ship just so he won't study chemical engineering. If mom was truly worried about dad brainwashing the boy, she should've started working on that years ago, by speaking with the father and encouraging her son to pursue a variety of interests.
At this point, the best she can do is maybe speak to the father about laying off the pressure (if there is any pressure), and be supportive of her son. He'll make his own decisions in time.
posted by lacedcoffee at 2:04 PM on January 21, 2011
Leave the kid alone. Your sister is trying to add to perceived dysfunctionality in his decision process.
posted by rhizome at 2:08 PM on January 21, 2011
posted by rhizome at 2:08 PM on January 21, 2011
I'm agreeing with those above who say 1) choosing a major does not mean A. that's your major for the rest of college and B. you'll get a job in your field, and 2) it sounds like there's pressure from both Mom and Dad, and there might be some struggle between Mom and Dad for the future of the kid, without thinking about the kid.
Let him go to college for whatever he wants, and support his decisions while in college, including the decision to leave college because he really has no idea what he wants to do with his life, and wants to try something different. And if the whole idea of going off to college is too big, Community Colleges are great if he really has no idea, and wants to try a lot of things, because they're cheaper, and the class sizes are often smaller. But the act of going away, even 2 hours away, is sometimes enough to open up the potential for making big decisions.
Trying to steer the kid didn't work earlier, and now he's picked something that Mom thinks isn't the right fit is another attempt to steer him. Now is the time to let go.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:16 PM on January 21, 2011
Let him go to college for whatever he wants, and support his decisions while in college, including the decision to leave college because he really has no idea what he wants to do with his life, and wants to try something different. And if the whole idea of going off to college is too big, Community Colleges are great if he really has no idea, and wants to try a lot of things, because they're cheaper, and the class sizes are often smaller. But the act of going away, even 2 hours away, is sometimes enough to open up the potential for making big decisions.
Trying to steer the kid didn't work earlier, and now he's picked something that Mom thinks isn't the right fit is another attempt to steer him. Now is the time to let go.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:16 PM on January 21, 2011
Is the kid in the US? What state? How old?
If he is in the US, he will have time to change his mind once he's in college. If not, then it would be good to say what country he's in, since the higher education systems are very different -- in other countries students generally are much LESS able to change their minds later, and that will make a difference to people's advice here.
posted by LobsterMitten at 2:22 PM on January 21, 2011
If he is in the US, he will have time to change his mind once he's in college. If not, then it would be good to say what country he's in, since the higher education systems are very different -- in other countries students generally are much LESS able to change their minds later, and that will make a difference to people's advice here.
posted by LobsterMitten at 2:22 PM on January 21, 2011
These decisions are always tough, but if the time for decision was near, he had to decide somehow. This doesn't sound like a foolish decision.
I don't understand what your sister wants here. Make him change his mind? To what? Humanities major? I was one of those and I loved it and wouldn't trade it for the world, but I'm not sure it's something she can or should talk him into. If she just wants him to keep an open mind, taking extra-major classes can help. Emphasize to him that his decision is respected, but that he might enjoy stuff outside of that on the side -- if he discovers he likes that stuff more, maybe he'll change his mind.
posted by J. Wilson at 3:41 PM on January 21, 2011
I don't understand what your sister wants here. Make him change his mind? To what? Humanities major? I was one of those and I loved it and wouldn't trade it for the world, but I'm not sure it's something she can or should talk him into. If she just wants him to keep an open mind, taking extra-major classes can help. Emphasize to him that his decision is respected, but that he might enjoy stuff outside of that on the side -- if he discovers he likes that stuff more, maybe he'll change his mind.
posted by J. Wilson at 3:41 PM on January 21, 2011
You know what I would resent even more than being talked into majoring in chemical engineering by Dad? Being sent to work on a boat by Mom.
posted by onepot at 4:05 PM on January 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by onepot at 4:05 PM on January 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
He's in high school, choosing a "prospective" major. Whoop. I'd say if the kid has any aptitude for it, he might as well start out college in engineering, rather than start as a philosophy major and have to play catch up. I started as a CS major, then EE, then Math, where I kinda spent a semester in a hammock smoking cigars, then I had to catch up so I could get a Mech E degree in four years.
Even if he goes through with it, he doesn't have to be a ChemE for life. I've worked in plane factories, train factories, built car washes (like, construction work), and designed plumbing in the 12 years I've been out. Don't sweat it.
posted by notsnot at 4:16 PM on January 21, 2011
Even if he goes through with it, he doesn't have to be a ChemE for life. I've worked in plane factories, train factories, built car washes (like, construction work), and designed plumbing in the 12 years I've been out. Don't sweat it.
posted by notsnot at 4:16 PM on January 21, 2011
You sure this isn't about a power struggle between Mom and Dad?
tldr: Let the kid live and learn a bit, online resources can help.
posted by The Biggest Dreamer at 4:45 PM on January 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
tldr: Let the kid live and learn a bit, online resources can help.
posted by The Biggest Dreamer at 4:45 PM on January 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
Several friends of mine thought they were going to be biologists until they took Biology 101. Short of domineering asian parents and the like, if something is a bad fit, it'll sort itself out one way or the other. Just make sure he gets to choose his own courses, especially electives.
The thing to do is just to reinforce the notion that it's alright for him to do whatever he likes with his life, and that analytical skills and applications are not just limited to chemical engineers. Send him this thread of How did you find your passion? and offer to discuss that with him. Later on when he's in college, keep in touch and ask about his studies.
posted by everyday_naturalist at 11:18 PM on January 21, 2011
The thing to do is just to reinforce the notion that it's alright for him to do whatever he likes with his life, and that analytical skills and applications are not just limited to chemical engineers. Send him this thread of How did you find your passion? and offer to discuss that with him. Later on when he's in college, keep in touch and ask about his studies.
posted by everyday_naturalist at 11:18 PM on January 21, 2011
I got herded into signing up for Engineering (in a 3/2 plan so I could also get a BA in English at Tufts) right out of high school. And in July I called up and got tranferred over to Arts & Sciences before I ever signed up for a single Enginerd class. :7)
Probably I couldn't have managed the math for more than a semester or two; tempermentally I loved literature more and needed to work on the school paper; definitely I needed to stop doing what I was told.
In restrospect I think my parents saw me as a sharp kid and suggested something that seemed to fit one of my interests: I don't ascribe and Mommy Dearest Controlling Freak agendas here. But I also won't forget this when my babies are doing the College Applicaiton Dance in not-too-many years, either.
"Should" anyone (like you) have done anything? Maybe if other people took part in those conversations it mighht have been useful. Maybe if someone spoke up now and said to your brother, "Hey, I think you can change from one part of the school to another with no penalty!" they might find an eager ear. But maybe the kid want to be unemployed but with a decent technical education. *shrug*
posted by wenestvedt at 11:15 AM on January 24, 2011
Probably I couldn't have managed the math for more than a semester or two; tempermentally I loved literature more and needed to work on the school paper; definitely I needed to stop doing what I was told.
In restrospect I think my parents saw me as a sharp kid and suggested something that seemed to fit one of my interests: I don't ascribe and Mommy Dearest Controlling Freak agendas here. But I also won't forget this when my babies are doing the College Applicaiton Dance in not-too-many years, either.
"Should" anyone (like you) have done anything? Maybe if other people took part in those conversations it mighht have been useful. Maybe if someone spoke up now and said to your brother, "Hey, I think you can change from one part of the school to another with no penalty!" they might find an eager ear. But maybe the kid want to be unemployed but with a decent technical education. *shrug*
posted by wenestvedt at 11:15 AM on January 24, 2011
How to help the kid change his mind, and expose him to other ideas? How to get him to be open to at least hear about Economics, or Social related studies, humanities??
He's going to have a lot more exposure to economics, social sciences, and the humanities than a humanities/economics/social sciences major is going to have to engineering and mathematics.
And, honestly, if he decides he likes chemical engineering, he will get a really well-paying job. And he'll be equally qualified to become a patent attorney or go to medical school.
But, hey, when I was a freshman, I thought I wanted to major in Physics. I ended up studying computer science and took classes in Byzantine History and economics on the side.
I don't see why you (and/or your sister) are treating this as a crisis. No one finishes a chemical engineering degree unless they want it.
posted by deanc at 2:46 PM on January 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
He's going to have a lot more exposure to economics, social sciences, and the humanities than a humanities/economics/social sciences major is going to have to engineering and mathematics.
And, honestly, if he decides he likes chemical engineering, he will get a really well-paying job. And he'll be equally qualified to become a patent attorney or go to medical school.
But, hey, when I was a freshman, I thought I wanted to major in Physics. I ended up studying computer science and took classes in Byzantine History and economics on the side.
I don't see why you (and/or your sister) are treating this as a crisis. No one finishes a chemical engineering degree unless they want it.
posted by deanc at 2:46 PM on January 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
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posted by GuyZero at 12:10 PM on January 21, 2011 [19 favorites]