Canine ACL/MCL tear
November 29, 2010 8:00 AM Subscribe
Dogfilter: A friend's 11 year old springer spaniel just tore his hind ACL and MCL. The Vet says he's too old for surgery and recommends bracing the other hind leg so it doesn't give out.
He doesn't use the leg, and the pain is acute, so he's hopping around on three legs, and he's not too good at it- he's too much of a dog to know that he's injured, so he falls down a lot, has trouble with stairs, can't jump up on furniture...etc.
He was a very active dog- loved chasing birds (which is how he blew out his knee) and long walks/runs; none of which he can ever do again.
What do the next few weeks/months look like for my now 3-legged friend? To be blunt: should he be put down sooner rather than later?
He doesn't use the leg, and the pain is acute, so he's hopping around on three legs, and he's not too good at it- he's too much of a dog to know that he's injured, so he falls down a lot, has trouble with stairs, can't jump up on furniture...etc.
He was a very active dog- loved chasing birds (which is how he blew out his knee) and long walks/runs; none of which he can ever do again.
What do the next few weeks/months look like for my now 3-legged friend? To be blunt: should he be put down sooner rather than later?
Check with another vet about surgery options.
Other than that, dog quality of life sounds like something that can only be judged on a dog by dog basis. At least give the guy some more time to adjust to life with three legs.
posted by thirteenkiller at 8:58 AM on November 29, 2010
Other than that, dog quality of life sounds like something that can only be judged on a dog by dog basis. At least give the guy some more time to adjust to life with three legs.
posted by thirteenkiller at 8:58 AM on November 29, 2010
I think he'll figure out within a couple weeks of the injury what kinds of activities result in him falling. Maybe not, but I think so (depends on how his mind is doing).
The big thing is pain. It seems to be a choice between a dog in pain that you have to contain from re-injuring himself & get to have alive for longer; or a dog with possibly no pain who's trying to do things, may succeed, but eventually will not succeed. It will break his owner's hearts to see him inactive, it will also break their hearts to see him trying to be active and failing. A very tough call. If it were me, taking his age into account, I think I would fill him up with painkillers and allow him to be the dog he always was, while being aware that it will come to an abrupt, sad end. Less, but better, months over more, but confined, months.
posted by MeiraV at 9:08 AM on November 29, 2010
The big thing is pain. It seems to be a choice between a dog in pain that you have to contain from re-injuring himself & get to have alive for longer; or a dog with possibly no pain who's trying to do things, may succeed, but eventually will not succeed. It will break his owner's hearts to see him inactive, it will also break their hearts to see him trying to be active and failing. A very tough call. If it were me, taking his age into account, I think I would fill him up with painkillers and allow him to be the dog he always was, while being aware that it will come to an abrupt, sad end. Less, but better, months over more, but confined, months.
posted by MeiraV at 9:08 AM on November 29, 2010
Second opinion. Also, your friend should ask the first vet and veterinary technicians the questions you are asking us. I mean, dogs adjust. But if he's not getting the repair, is he not being treated for pain? Or not on crate rest? Why are people letting him try to jump up on furniture rather than making him a comfy spot next to his favorite couch?
This question is presented in black and white terms and seems slanted towards 'tell my friend to put the dog down' when there are huge information gaps here and an incredible set of shaded greys where aging and/or disabled animals can have very good lives, even without long runs and bird chases.
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 9:11 AM on November 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
This question is presented in black and white terms and seems slanted towards 'tell my friend to put the dog down' when there are huge information gaps here and an incredible set of shaded greys where aging and/or disabled animals can have very good lives, even without long runs and bird chases.
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 9:11 AM on November 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
Is it that the dog wouldn't benefit from ACL surgery or that he can tolerate no surgery?
If he can tolerate surgery, my worst-case-scenario plan after a specialist ortho consult would be to amputate the leg (because dogs do well on three legs, much better than on 3.5) and try to keep him from blowing out the remaining ACL as long as possible. When that one goes (and in theory it could outlive him) I'd be making the hardest choice then, not now.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:11 AM on November 29, 2010
If he can tolerate surgery, my worst-case-scenario plan after a specialist ortho consult would be to amputate the leg (because dogs do well on three legs, much better than on 3.5) and try to keep him from blowing out the remaining ACL as long as possible. When that one goes (and in theory it could outlive him) I'd be making the hardest choice then, not now.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:11 AM on November 29, 2010
Did the vet based his opinion that the dog was too old for surgery *just* on the dog's age, or the dog's overall health level? My 14.5 year old dog recently was neutered and had minor surgery at the same time, and came through it just fine, but he was in excellent health to begin with. Your friend really might want to get a second opinion from a vet who specializes in geriatric animals.
posted by Ashley801 at 9:11 AM on November 29, 2010
posted by Ashley801 at 9:11 AM on November 29, 2010
I have two labs, I have had three other dogs that needed to be put down. It is one of the worst days of your life to put a dog down, everyone thinks "Oh just, you know, take him in and walk off without a thought about it." it is not like that at all.
Holding your best friend while he slips away is rough. That being said, always go for sooner rather then later. If you know it is coming in the next month or so, just do it.
People almost always choose to go the long route and wait until the dog is in so much pain that it needs to happen. By doing it sooner you prevent the pain and the suffering that will come.
posted by Felex at 9:16 AM on November 29, 2010
Holding your best friend while he slips away is rough. That being said, always go for sooner rather then later. If you know it is coming in the next month or so, just do it.
People almost always choose to go the long route and wait until the dog is in so much pain that it needs to happen. By doing it sooner you prevent the pain and the suffering that will come.
posted by Felex at 9:16 AM on November 29, 2010
Look, I know one active elderly dog who had two serious neurologic insults. The dog regained some function after the initial incidents, adjusted, had his arthritis meds upped as well, and spent the next two years comfortably enjoying sun baths on the patio and snacks and sneaking people food when no one was looking and short leashed walks and watching cats and fish and going for car rides and meeting new people and taking nice snoozes outside and on his bed and chewing on toys and bones.
Quite honestly, it was a pretty sweet life.
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 9:20 AM on November 29, 2010
Quite honestly, it was a pretty sweet life.
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 9:20 AM on November 29, 2010
I would get a second opinion on the surgery, and I would also consider (if surgery is viable) the possibility of amputation to relieve the pain.
I had a shepard mix that had bone cancer in his rear knee, and he was as happy as ever and almost as active as ever operating with just three legs. Dogs get used to it very quickly. Sadly in his case the cancer spread to his spine, but I wouldn't hesitate to do it again as a pain relief measure.
posted by newpotato at 9:21 AM on November 29, 2010
I had a shepard mix that had bone cancer in his rear knee, and he was as happy as ever and almost as active as ever operating with just three legs. Dogs get used to it very quickly. Sadly in his case the cancer spread to his spine, but I wouldn't hesitate to do it again as a pain relief measure.
posted by newpotato at 9:21 AM on November 29, 2010
And, because my phone posted instead of previewed, that is one example of why I am saying that there are huge gaps and projected expectations in the framing of the question and the information provided. Your friend needs to talk to the first vet and seek a second opinion.
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 9:25 AM on November 29, 2010
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 9:25 AM on November 29, 2010
Nthing getting a second opinion. There are different surgeries available, and 11 is not too old (depends on bloodwork). Another option is cage rest and anti-inflammatory medication (Rimadyl or Metacam). You can get these medications cheaper by having your vet call in a prescription to Valley Vet. ACLs (not sure about MCLs) can be healed this way.
Also, make sure that you get a second opinion from an orthopedic specialist. I think most general practice vets don't have the expertise to deal with this sort of injury in the best way. And as DarlingBri said (and I have experience with this) 3 legs is no big deal for a dog (if it were to get to that. I had a 3-legged greyhound/beagle mix that would tear around like a madman.
posted by bolognius maximus at 9:29 AM on November 29, 2010
Also, make sure that you get a second opinion from an orthopedic specialist. I think most general practice vets don't have the expertise to deal with this sort of injury in the best way. And as DarlingBri said (and I have experience with this) 3 legs is no big deal for a dog (if it were to get to that. I had a 3-legged greyhound/beagle mix that would tear around like a madman.
posted by bolognius maximus at 9:29 AM on November 29, 2010
Animals don't know when they are handicapped. They adjust to life in new circumstances without thinking about it the way we do. *We* think things like "chasing birds (which is how he blew out his knee) and long walks/runs; none of which he can ever do again." Dogs live very much in the now, without contemplating what they have lost or what they love and will never do again.
Adapting may take some time, but they will not regard it with bleakness and despair and depression.
TriPawds might be a good resource for your friend.
posted by galadriel at 9:35 AM on November 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
Adapting may take some time, but they will not regard it with bleakness and despair and depression.
TriPawds might be a good resource for your friend.
posted by galadriel at 9:35 AM on November 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
Just to enlighten the discussion; Is money an issue here? Several of the options presented above run into the thousands, which is awesome if the owner has the money and wants to spend it. Otherwise we might be talking about somethings that are off the table because of financial reasons.
posted by Felex at 9:36 AM on November 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Felex at 9:36 AM on November 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks for the advice, so great to hear that 3-legged dogs are a happy lot! We are going to get a second opinion tomorrow, and I'll be sure to forward along these links.
posted by stevedee at 9:40 AM on November 29, 2010
posted by stevedee at 9:40 AM on November 29, 2010
I'm going through this right now with a beloved, 8-year-old yellow lab female. She blew out one back leg about a year and a half ago. She's had other problems that basically ruled out surgery and her leg "healed" to the point of letting her get around without medication. The other leg went about four months ago, and we're working through the same medication regimen now.
What you need to know is that with appropriate anti-inflammatories and/or pain medication, they adapt, they really do. If your dog is in otherwise decent health, there's no need to be thinking of anything so drastic as putting him down at this point. You can keep him happy and comfortable for some time to come. We found a real key was cultivating activities that didn't require running about but still provided a lot of attention (including watching TV while 'snuggling' on dad's lap, all 80 pounds of her...).
I'm not saying you should keep a dog around if it's in pain or discomfort, when it's quality of life is severely diminished; that would be cruel. In fact, I've seen protracted suffering due to an owners inability to let go, and have vowed never to do that, but to act as soon as it's clear that the decline is irrevocable. Unless your dog has other health issues that are more serious, blowing out the tendons in their back leg(s) hardly qualifies, in my eyes.
posted by OneMonkeysUncle at 10:51 AM on November 29, 2010
What you need to know is that with appropriate anti-inflammatories and/or pain medication, they adapt, they really do. If your dog is in otherwise decent health, there's no need to be thinking of anything so drastic as putting him down at this point. You can keep him happy and comfortable for some time to come. We found a real key was cultivating activities that didn't require running about but still provided a lot of attention (including watching TV while 'snuggling' on dad's lap, all 80 pounds of her...).
I'm not saying you should keep a dog around if it's in pain or discomfort, when it's quality of life is severely diminished; that would be cruel. In fact, I've seen protracted suffering due to an owners inability to let go, and have vowed never to do that, but to act as soon as it's clear that the decline is irrevocable. Unless your dog has other health issues that are more serious, blowing out the tendons in their back leg(s) hardly qualifies, in my eyes.
posted by OneMonkeysUncle at 10:51 AM on November 29, 2010
I agree with others suggesting getting a second opinion. There is no such thing as too old for surgery, only too unhealthy. It sounds like this dog was active and healthy before the incident. It is possible that the vet gave the cost for the surgery and said it wasn't worth it because of the dog's age. That is a choice for the owner to make. I have seen many tripod dogs happy and fine. They walk, run, play, even a Newfoundland that was over 200 Lbs got around fine.
posted by boobjob at 10:57 AM on November 29, 2010
posted by boobjob at 10:57 AM on November 29, 2010
Nthing second opinion, and look for a vet with a special interest in anesthesia and orthopedics (i.e. has a special interest in it, not a "specialist" per se) or ideally a university if you have one nearby with a vet program. There is no such thing as too old for surgery, only vets who don't trust their anesthetic protocol. Yes, there are some dogs who are a poor anesthetic risk, but this relates to kidney function, liver function, respiratory abilities, etc. age is not a disease.
posted by biscotti at 4:00 PM on November 29, 2010
posted by biscotti at 4:00 PM on November 29, 2010
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posted by zamboni at 8:13 AM on November 29, 2010