Is woulda killing HAD?
November 20, 2010 11:16 PM Subscribe
Is the double "would've" going to beat out the "had +" construction in the English language?
I've noticed that the "I would've done that, if you would've asked me" has taken on enormous strength in recent years. Even John Madden used it while commentating. Interestingly, the States do encourage commentators to go with "Had he..." instead of "if he had...", so there is still some vestigial strength with the "had + past participle".
But people who work with youth, do you see this as being a lost cause already, or does "I would've done that, if you HAD asked me" (or any variation on this formula) have some life left to it?
Thanks.
I've noticed that the "I would've done that, if you would've asked me" has taken on enormous strength in recent years. Even John Madden used it while commentating. Interestingly, the States do encourage commentators to go with "Had he..." instead of "if he had...", so there is still some vestigial strength with the "had + past participle".
But people who work with youth, do you see this as being a lost cause already, or does "I would've done that, if you HAD asked me" (or any variation on this formula) have some life left to it?
Thanks.
I usually hear "I would've done that if *insert name here* had asked me..."
posted by bardophile at 11:40 PM on November 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by bardophile at 11:40 PM on November 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
Shouldn't it be "I would have done that, if you were to have asked me"?
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:54 PM on November 20, 2010
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:54 PM on November 20, 2010
Best answer: You're talking about the counterfactual or subjunctive conditional. Page down a bit and you get the relevant discussion under "Counterfactual".
Joe in Australia's got his moods right but English is a pain in the ass when it comes to mixing tenses and moods. The present counterfactual ("if you were to ask me, (then) I would do that") takes the past subjunctive for the "if" clause but the past counterfactual takes the past perfect ("if you had asked me, (then) I would have done that").
The Wikipedia article notes that the woulda-woulda construction ("if you would have asked me, then I would have done it") appears to be gathering momentum in some English variants, but isn't accepted as standard everywhere. I think the woulda-woulda sounds funny but I'm stodgy.
posted by gingerest at 12:19 AM on November 21, 2010 [3 favorites]
Joe in Australia's got his moods right but English is a pain in the ass when it comes to mixing tenses and moods. The present counterfactual ("if you were to ask me, (then) I would do that") takes the past subjunctive for the "if" clause but the past counterfactual takes the past perfect ("if you had asked me, (then) I would have done that").
The Wikipedia article notes that the woulda-woulda construction ("if you would have asked me, then I would have done it") appears to be gathering momentum in some English variants, but isn't accepted as standard everywhere. I think the woulda-woulda sounds funny but I'm stodgy.
posted by gingerest at 12:19 AM on November 21, 2010 [3 favorites]
I've only ever heard this grating construction from a fairly small subset of Americans, so I don't think there's much imminent danger of it taking over in the rest of the English speaking world. I certainly hope not.
posted by Decani at 1:04 AM on November 21, 2010
posted by Decani at 1:04 AM on November 21, 2010
As Decani rightly points out the "would've" does not exist in English. It exists only in the US dialect of English.
posted by TheRaven at 1:07 AM on November 21, 2010
posted by TheRaven at 1:07 AM on November 21, 2010
Agree. It is fairly common where I live, but typically used by those who also use "had went".
I liked the "even John Madden" part. He is remarkably eloquent.
posted by yclipse at 4:16 AM on November 21, 2010
I liked the "even John Madden" part. He is remarkably eloquent.
posted by yclipse at 4:16 AM on November 21, 2010
Best answer: I hear this constantly from my students (teenagers, western Massachusetts, US). And I agree with yclipse; they all also use have/had + simple past for the perfects ("I have went," "I had drank," "we have sang," etc.). I don't think I've ever heard them use "had" in a condition, except when I've told them to in translation from Latin! (And then they have no idea what it means in English; it is emphatically not part of their dialect.) In this area, anyway, it seems the subjunctive (call it what you will in English) is dead, not merely moribund.
(FWIW, I hear both from adults here, too. Including teachers.)
posted by lysimache at 4:52 AM on November 21, 2010
(FWIW, I hear both from adults here, too. Including teachers.)
posted by lysimache at 4:52 AM on November 21, 2010
I've never heard anyone say that. My rule of thumb is that if John Madden (like George W. Bush) is the only person saying something, then it's not something people say.
posted by J. Wilson at 5:04 AM on November 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by J. Wilson at 5:04 AM on November 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
As Decani rightly points out the "would've" does not exist in English. It exists only in the US dialect of English.
The words "would've" and "could've" are definitely in use in Australia and the UK. I began actively noticing it in written communications from friends in both countries about seven years ago, but my English husband insists that "would've" has been in use in the UK "for at least thirty years".
posted by hot soup girl at 5:17 AM on November 21, 2010
The words "would've" and "could've" are definitely in use in Australia and the UK. I began actively noticing it in written communications from friends in both countries about seven years ago, but my English husband insists that "would've" has been in use in the UK "for at least thirty years".
posted by hot soup girl at 5:17 AM on November 21, 2010
From what i can tell, the woulda-woulda construction is definitely becoming more common. I even notice it in my office all-too-frequently. I don't think that we are quite at the stage of totally losing the subjunctive mood for good yet. I'm still more worried about the increasingly futile battles of less vs fewer and number vs amount.
posted by fso at 5:51 AM on November 21, 2010
posted by fso at 5:51 AM on November 21, 2010
I hear "If I would have" all the time, especially in sportscasts. I assume the "correct" usage is losing ground.
posted by dfan at 7:42 AM on November 21, 2010
posted by dfan at 7:42 AM on November 21, 2010
The words "would've" and "could've" are definitely in use in Australia and the UK.
Canada too!
More worrisome for me, though, is the fact that too many believe that "would of" is being said instead "would've" (I grade lots of essays). By comparison, I wouldn't miss the "had + past participle" construction at all.
posted by astrochimp at 8:35 AM on November 21, 2010
Canada too!
More worrisome for me, though, is the fact that too many believe that "would of" is being said instead "would've" (I grade lots of essays). By comparison, I wouldn't miss the "had + past participle" construction at all.
posted by astrochimp at 8:35 AM on November 21, 2010
I think it depends on the order of the clauses.
A) I would've X if you'd Y ("I would've done it if you'd asked")
B) I would've X if you would've Y ("I would've done it if you would've asked")
C) If you'd Y, I would've X ("If you'd asked, I would've done it")
D) If you would've Y, I would've X ("If you would've asked, I would've done it")
I hear A a lot more than B. But C and D are a lot closer to even, I think.
posted by EmilyClimbs at 8:51 AM on November 21, 2010
A) I would've X if you'd Y ("I would've done it if you'd asked")
B) I would've X if you would've Y ("I would've done it if you would've asked")
C) If you'd Y, I would've X ("If you'd asked, I would've done it")
D) If you would've Y, I would've X ("If you would've asked, I would've done it")
I hear A a lot more than B. But C and D are a lot closer to even, I think.
posted by EmilyClimbs at 8:51 AM on November 21, 2010
A bit of grammar googling confirms my impression that these contractions are all perfectly fine and have been accepted for some time (I'm particularly fond of “I’d’ve,” “there’re,",“must’ve,” "may've," "should've" and "might've") though of course, as this page notes, "could of, should of, would of, may of, and might of are never correct".
posted by hot soup girl at 9:26 AM on November 21, 2010
posted by hot soup girl at 9:26 AM on November 21, 2010
Also 'wouldn't've', has certainly existed in UK for a while. Example
posted by blue_wardrobe at 9:37 AM on November 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by blue_wardrobe at 9:37 AM on November 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
As Decani rightly points out the "would've" does not exist in English. It exists only in the US dialect of English.
US English is a subset of English as a whole; therefore, if it exists in US English it exists in English. Don't let your desire to be snarky about how Americans speak overwhelm your command of logic.
posted by Lexica at 11:09 AM on November 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
US English is a subset of English as a whole; therefore, if it exists in US English it exists in English. Don't let your desire to be snarky about how Americans speak overwhelm your command of logic.
posted by Lexica at 11:09 AM on November 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Datapoint: I have never heard this bizarre construction; I've lived in the mid-Atlantic and the midwest.
posted by foursentences at 11:20 AM on November 21, 2010
posted by foursentences at 11:20 AM on November 21, 2010
This is a common construction (in the US), and yes, it appears to be heading for dominance in colloquial English (in the US).
> Shouldn't it be "I would have done that, if you were to have asked me"?
I don't know what value of "should" you're using, but "if you were to have asked me" is absolutely not part of standard English (in the US)—it's intensely old-fashioned and would immediately mark whoever used it as old and/or bookish. The normal standard construction is "if you had asked me."
It would be great if people could keep their pointless nationalistic snark out of this thread. As it says at the bottom, "Please limit comments to answers or help in finding an answer. Wisecracks don't help people find answers. Thanks."
posted by languagehat at 12:08 PM on November 21, 2010
> Shouldn't it be "I would have done that, if you were to have asked me"?
I don't know what value of "should" you're using, but "if you were to have asked me" is absolutely not part of standard English (in the US)—it's intensely old-fashioned and would immediately mark whoever used it as old and/or bookish. The normal standard construction is "if you had asked me."
It would be great if people could keep their pointless nationalistic snark out of this thread. As it says at the bottom, "Please limit comments to answers or help in finding an answer. Wisecracks don't help people find answers. Thanks."
posted by languagehat at 12:08 PM on November 21, 2010
To me, as a lifelong New Englander, this feels like a Southern US-ism. I have zero grounds for that other than gut feeling, though.
Around here, the locution is generally "I woulda done that if he'd asked me."
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:51 PM on November 21, 2010
Around here, the locution is generally "I woulda done that if he'd asked me."
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:51 PM on November 21, 2010
Best answer: I live in Dallas and I hear the would've/would've ALL the time! It is one of my pet peeves and I also wondered if the had/would've was dying out. I think I've heard the w/w construction on TV shows, not just in real life.
posted by CathyG at 2:35 PM on November 21, 2010
posted by CathyG at 2:35 PM on November 21, 2010
In my part of the southeastern US (Virginia) it's definitely "if he had" not "if he would've." I hear the "would've" version occasionally, but it sounds really strange to me.
We do do other weird things with modal auxiliaries, and the "had went" thing, so I can see how it would sound Southern. I can't speak for other parts of the South.
posted by nangar at 3:21 PM on November 21, 2010
We do do other weird things with modal auxiliaries, and the "had went" thing, so I can see how it would sound Southern. I can't speak for other parts of the South.
posted by nangar at 3:21 PM on November 21, 2010
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